MTB Origins argument thread [Archive]

Repack Rider

11-06-2012, 03:59 PM

I would argue that while the industry of mountain biking may have began in Marin, the sport itself was going on in other places at the same time plus or minus a few years regardless of industry.

I grew up in Houston and as early as '73 various bikes from 20" orange crates to 26" paper boys were being modified and ridden up and down the trails in the bayous around my area. It was small kids and big kids doing what would later be called BMX and MTB. I am sure others would have similar stories.

Anyone?

I'm homing in on your statement that "...the sport itself was going on in other places at the same time plus or minus a few years regardless of industry."

First, "at the same time" is not "plus or minus a few years."

Next, let's look at your use of the term "the sport" to describe mountain biking. Is "the sport" competition, or is riding your bike around the block the same as participating in a cycling "sport." For me "sport" is competition.

Starting in 1976 a series of off-road races took place in Marin County. The records are still available. (http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack_results.htm) If there was organized fat-tire off-road competition before that time with a record of the results, please tell me where, and how I can see the results.

The first race (http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack.htm) was a one-off event, not meant to be followed by another. But the effect of holding that first race was that everybody who heard about it and had an adequate bike wanted to try this downhill racing stuff. Within a month of that first race, riders from outside the area, from off-road groups we had never heard of, were joining in. We found that there was a bunch of guys in the East Bay who called themselves the Berkeley Trailers Union (BTU), who had been shredding the Berkeley Hills in much the same manner as we shredded in Marin, so they certainly had many of the same ideas. They were another of the groups who "independently" invented mountain biking.

But they never put on races, they came to ours, and they never even modified the bikes. None of these riders ever entered the bicycle business, and their influence on the future was negligible. In other words, they were just like everybody else outside of Marin who "independently" invented mountain biking.

The other effect of the regular, organized competition was that suddenly the old sleds were no longer adequate to the task. I was using up another frame every few months, and with a shrinking supply and increased demand, the price had skyrocketed for an old ballooner.

I decided in late 1976 that whatever it cost, a custom frame would be an improvement and would probably last longer than the bikes I was destroying regularly. I had a friend build me a custom frame for fat tires. That was as far as I know the first attempt to build a modern mountain bike. Once again, if you can show me a previous example, I will stand corrected.

After Joe Breeze and Tom Ritchey built up new off-road frames from scratch, the demand exploded even more. Everybody in our crowd wanted one, and eventually Gary Fisher and I rented a garage and started a business we called "MountainBikes" (http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbikes_company.htm) to try to meet the demand.

We never did catch up with the demand, but the sport took its name from our rented garage.

Your turn.

charliedid

11-06-2012, 04:06 PM

I invented the mountain bike.

54ny77

11-06-2012, 04:20 PM

hey repack, i had a fisher. it was heavy, and it was fun!

oh and thanks for all you's guys cookin' up a new sport!

i've never partaken of it much, but when i did it sure was enjoyable. today's mtb tech blows me away. it's amazing how fast & furious it's all come.

small world i was just up in san anselmo a month or so ago, had no idea that's where it all began.

:)

Louis

11-06-2012, 04:25 PM

I think this is the perfect thing to argue about today to take our minds off that other stuff going on. (seriously)

BTW, Campy sncks !!! (especially on MTB's)

54ny77

11-06-2012, 04:38 PM

remember when campy had an mtb group?

that was kinda weird.

Ken Robb

11-06-2012, 04:38 PM

I thought Al Gore invented the mountain bike.:)

54ny77

11-06-2012, 04:39 PM

no he invented the humpstumper.

I thought Al Gore invented the mountain bike.:)

Mark McM

11-06-2012, 04:50 PM

http://bks7.books.google.com/books?id=squiPwAACAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE705LKjO8R7SIAsVNFKpFmEBIfptESn5xieigVRi 1iE3nhj0YJ8ovFlKrBAiVNoqKsdOyu7YkMlYKRy8kO_cSGRDsl DOpP9asyV-5zrTsCniZL5d_kjLxH5X9skq5q8adKQxNeFc

The Birth of Dirt: Origins of Mountain Biking (http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Birth_of_Dirt.html?id=squiPwAACAAJ) by Frank Berto and Charlie Kelly

"Much expanded and updated new edition of the book that started out by trying to answer the question, 'who invented the mountain bike.' Well, it turns out the mountain bike has many fathers and mothers, and this edition of the book credits them all. Illustrated with numerous period color photographs, this book is truly a celebration of the early days of the sport."

phcollard

11-06-2012, 04:53 PM

Tom Ritchey?

witcombusa

11-06-2012, 05:02 PM

Sport is not competition :confused:

It is the whole. In fact racing is a very small segment at best.

If you're going on that premise your assumptions are all wrong.

4Rings6Stars

11-06-2012, 05:48 PM

Sport is not competition :confused:

It is the whole. In fact racing is a very small segment at best.

If you're going on that premise your assumptions are all wrong.

Big +1

Ken Robb

11-06-2012, 06:04 PM

no he invented the humpstumper.

I guess a guy should ride whatever he likes.

54ny77

11-06-2012, 06:06 PM

And apparently he did just that.

:p

I guess a guy should ride whatever he likes.

gdw

11-06-2012, 06:20 PM

"Sport is not competition
It is the whole. In fact racing is a very small segment at best.
If you're going on that premise your assumptions are all wrong."

What's your point? He's providing information about the birth of the mtb and the Marin races are proof that they were activity promoting riding on dirt in the mid 70's. Those races lead to the production, not conversion, of bikes for dirt road and trail riding. Those early designs eventually morphed into the modern mtb.

In the first thread you brought up 650b bikes being used on goat paths in Europe. Do you know of a production model which preceeds the first Breezers and is the basis for the modern mtb? Can you provide any evidence to prove that it was responsible for the boom of the 80's?

nicrump

11-06-2012, 06:29 PM

your are correct, we didn't have registration clip boards or t'shirts. the induction thread should be left at that. i'm just reflecting on what myself and the kids in my hood were doing back in the day.

I'm homing in on your statement that "...the sport itself was going on in other places at the same time plus or minus a few years regardless of industry."

First, "at the same time" is not "plus or minus a few years."

Next, let's look at your use of the term "the sport" to describe mountain biking. Is "the sport" competition, or is riding your bike around the block the same as participating in a cycling "sport." For me "sport" is competition.

Starting in 1976 a series of off-road races took place in Marin County. The records are still available. (http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack_results.htm) If there was organized fat-tire off-road competition before that time with a record of the results, please tell me where, and how I can see the results.

The first race (http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack.htm) was a one-off event, not meant to be followed by another. But the effect of holding that first race was that everybody who heard about it and had an adequate bike wanted to try this downhill racing stuff. Within a month of that first race, riders from outside the area, from off-road groups we had never heard of, were joining in. We found that there was a bunch of guys in the East Bay who called themselves the Berkeley Trailers Union (BTU), who had been shredding the Berkeley Hills in much the same manner as we shredded in Marin, so they certainly had many of the same ideas. They were another of the groups who "independently" invented mountain biking.

But they never put on races, they came to ours, and they never even modified the bikes. None of these riders ever entered the bicycle business, and their influence on the future was negligible. In other words, they were just like everybody else outside of Marin who "independently" invented mountain biking.

The other effect of the regular, organized competition was that suddenly the old sleds were no longer adequate to the task. I was using up another frame every few months, and with a shrinking supply and increased demand, the price had skyrocketed for an old ballooner.

I decided in late 1976 that whatever it cost, a custom frame would be an improvement and would probably last longer than the bikes I was destroying regularly. I had a friend build me a custom frame for fat tires. That was as far as I know the first attempt to build a modern mountain bike. Once again, if you can show me a previous example, I will stand corrected.

After Joe Breeze and Tom Ritchey built up new off-road frames from scratch, the demand exploded even more. Everybody in our crowd wanted one, and eventually Gary Fisher and I rented a garage and started a business we called "MountainBikes" (http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/mtbikes_company.htm) to try to meet the demand.

We never did catch up with the demand, but the sport took its name from our rented garage.

Your turn.

Repack Rider

11-06-2012, 07:38 PM

Sport is not competition :confused:

It is the whole. In fact racing is a very small segment at best.

If you're going on that premise your assumptions are all wrong.

The competition was a high point, and it was the inspiration to make special bikes from the ground up, but it would not have taken place without a culture to support it. By the time the first race took place there was an off-road community, not of kids, but of adults, many of whom had road racing licenses and were dedicated lifelong hardcore riders. My club, Velo-Club Tamalpais, was a racing club, but virtually every member also owned a clunker.

What took place in Marin was the result of that active community centered around off-road riding. The races were part of it, but not all. I am not aware of any prior similar cultural context built around off-road riding.

You would have to include the annual Thanksgiving Appetite Seminar, which we started doing in 1974, and is now the longest-running annual MTB event, drawing up to 1000 riders with no promotion whatever. I started actively promoting that in 1976, and quit during the eighties when it became apparent that it needed no help to take place. Now the idea has spread and there are copycat rides all over NorCal. Can you show me an annual off-road event that started before 1974?

In 1977 and 1978 I put on banquets I called the Clunker Awards. We gave out light-hearted "awards" to various of the Repack participants. Awards were given for "Best Dressed," "Fastest Dog," and the like, and the effect was to further cement a community with a hunger for off-road. Nothing like that happened anywhere else.

Then of course there were rides rides rides. Big groups of us hit out for various local peaks several times a week. But I'm sure you did that too.

The people who invented surfing lived at the beach. Surfing didn't take off as a sport until you could buy a surfboard, because the first surfers had to make their own boards out of a tree. Where we lived, it was off-road riding. Mountain biking took off when you could buy a bike for it, and that happened in one place only.

Back to you.

witcombusa

11-06-2012, 07:52 PM

The competition was a high point, and it was the inspiration to make special bikes from the ground up, but it would not have taken place without a culture to support it. By the time the first race took place there was an off-road community, not of kids, but of adults, many of whom had road racing licenses and were dedicated lifelong hardcore riders. My club, Velo-Club Tamalpais, was a racing club, but virtually every member also owned a clunker.

What took place in Marin was the result of that active community centered around off-road riding. The races were part of it, but not all. I am not aware of any prior similar cultural context built around off-road riding.

You would have to include the annual Thanksgiving Appetite Seminar, which we started doing in 1974, and is now the longest-running annual MTB event, drawing up to 1000 riders with no promotion whatever. I started actively promoting that in 1976, and quit during the eighties when it became apparent that it needed no help to take place. Now the idea has spread and there are copycat rides all over NorCal. Can you show me an annual off-road event that started before 1974?

In 1977 and 1978 I put on banquets I called the Clunker Awards. We gave out light-hearted "awards" to various of the Repack participants. Awards were given for "Best Dressed," "Fastest Dog," and the like, and the effect was to further cement a community with a hunger for off-road. Nothing like that happened anywhere else.

Then of course there were rides rides rides. Big groups of us hit out for various local peaks several times a week. But I'm sure you did that too.

The people who invented surfing lived at the beach. Surfing didn't take off as a sport until you could buy a surfboard, because the first surfers had to make their own boards out of a tree. Where we lived, it was off-road riding. Mountain biking took off when you could buy a bike for it, and that happened in one place only.

Back to you.

I must have missed the memo, did mountain biking take off? That's a shame then because all the trails we used to ride on our Pentons and Huskys in the 70's would have gotten crowded....not to mention all the hikers and equestrians getting pissed off.

I prefer a nice gravel road bike to a mtb personally these days...you're sure hanging on pretty tight to something that happened 40 years ago. Maybe time for something new???

BumbleBeeDave

11-06-2012, 08:16 PM

I must have missed the memo, did mountain biking take off? That's a shame then because all the trails we used to ride on our Pentons and Huskys in the 70's would have gotten crowded....not to mention all the hikers and equestrians getting pissed off.

I prefer a nice gravel road bike to a mtb personally these days...you're sure hanging on pretty tight to something that happened 40 years ago. Maybe time for something new???

Aside from giving this guy a hard time? Why go on to "something new" if he enjoys what he's doing now--and has enjoyed doing for 40 years?

If you want to ride on your nice gravel road, then go for it. But why rain on this guy's parade? :confused:

Mountain biking DID take off, and has now cooled down. Cross has taken off--and will undoubtedly cool down. It will probably be replaced by something else.

BBD

john903

11-06-2012, 08:22 PM

Thank you Repack Rider for the wonderful stroll down memory lane. After graduating high school I wen to San francisco to visit my dad for a year before joing the army, while there I bought a Schwinn High Sierra mountain bike in '87 and played all over the Marin headlands and Mt.Tam,man was it fun. One memorable time I had just come down a trail and came out in Mill Valley and meet another rider and he said hi great ride huh my name's John Tomac I just answered back and yea great day. I didnt know who he was and I didn't now this was some big thing I was just out riding my bike, then I joined the Army and never went back to the Bay area.
Thank You

Repack Rider

11-06-2012, 08:31 PM

I must have missed the memo, did mountain biking take off?

Outsold road bikes by 1987. Entered the Olympic Games 13 years after I wrote the rules for this new "non-sport."

That's a shame then because all the trails we used to ride on our Pentons and Huskys in the 70's would have gotten crowded....not to mention all the hikers and equestrians getting pissed off.

What is a Penton or a Husky? Chainsaws, right?

I prefer a nice gravel road bike to a mtb personally these days

I guess we can safely conclude that YOU didn't "invent" mountain biking and do not participate in it now. Why do YOU care?

...you're sure hanging on pretty tight to something that happened 40 years ago. Maybe time for something new???

Tell me about the pivotal cultural events you took part in that you no longer talk about or correct people's misconceptions about.

Flying Pigeon

11-06-2012, 08:35 PM

There's no way that Marin in the 70s could be left out of the story.

But many of the Marin pioneers (who are heroes of mine BTW) will be the first to mention the Buffalo Soldiers in the 19th century, the off-road races in France in the '50s, the post-war 'rough stuff' bikes made in the UK.

And my favorite part of the story is all the work the League of American Wheelman did to get so many roads paved in the first place. Funny to wait 100 years and then make a big deal about how lookit, we're riding off-road (again).

witcombusa

11-06-2012, 08:38 PM

Outsold road bikes by 1987. Entered the Olympic Games 13 years after I wrote the rules for this new "non-sport."

What is a Penton or a Husky? Chainsaws, right?

I guess we can safely conclude that YOU didn't "invent" mountain biking and do not participate in it now. Why do YOU care?

Tell me about the pivotal cultural events you took part in that you no longer talk about or correct people's misconceptions about.

You are a legend in your own mind....enjoy it :banana:

BumbleBeeDave

11-06-2012, 08:40 PM

I read him sharing some good memories of something he's proud of taking part in . . .

BBD

charliedid

11-06-2012, 08:45 PM

You are a legend in your own mind....enjoy it :banana:

You CLEARLY have no idea who you are taking to, do you?

Sheesh

BumbleBeeDave

11-06-2012, 08:50 PM

You CLEARLY have no idea who you are taking to do you?

Sheesh

. . he apparently doesn't. :rolleyes:

But I do. Sounds like you do, too.

RR has, I think, been around and dealt with the peanut gallery before. ;)

BBD

charliedid

11-06-2012, 08:52 PM

. . he apparently doesn't. :rolleyes:

But I do. Sounds like you do, too.

RR has, I think, been around and dealt with the peanut gallery before. ;)

BBD

Yeah, I recall a similar conversation last year.

Strange

gdw

11-06-2012, 08:53 PM

I think he does but just wants to be a troll today.

Steve in SLO

11-06-2012, 08:53 PM

Sheesh, it seems like the 'Winter Discontent' has come early this year.
Really,
Repack Rider started a nice thread about being at a function that honored some folks' contributions to cycling, and he gets piled/trolled on? Repack Rider was part of the movement that drove these guys to the forefront, and he is understandably proud of that. I think it is great that a pioneer in our shared passion logs into this forum and gives us some insight and experience on 'the way it was'.

I for one hope Repack keeps with us and spreads his wealth of experience and his secret for his continued passion for cycling, whether it be on dirt or asphalt.

To Repack Rider!:beer:

54ny77

11-06-2012, 08:56 PM

good grief, sometimes this place is an embarrassment of riches.

and sometimes it's just plain embarrassing. like a kindergarten playground.

hey repack, keep it coming. i for one (and surely others do too) enjoy these kinds of stories.

it's a slice of what was and what was to become.

really, who cares if someone was doing something similar within a few weeks +/-.

all of you who were there & doing it, it equally matters.

nicrump

11-06-2012, 08:59 PM

You CLEARLY have no idea who you are taking to do you?

Sheesh

please enlighten us because a screen name is only that. and i say that with full due respect. and while you are at it, who are you? i am sincerely interested because i am a fan first and foremost. Are you the alu weight weenie?

HenryA

11-06-2012, 09:01 PM

Charlie, thanks for the visit and updates.
Please ignore the knuckleheads and come back soon.

charliedid

11-06-2012, 09:09 PM

please enlighten us because a screen name is only that. and i say that with full due respect. and while you are at it, who are you? i am sincerely interested because i am a fan first and foremost. Are you the alu weight weenie?

Nick

I assume you are asking who Repack Rider is not me, right? I'm just a clown from Chicago with a far, far less stellar cycling pedigree. :-)

PS Henry A has given you a clue.

Peter B

11-06-2012, 09:10 PM

please enlighten us because a screen name is only that. and i say that with full due respect. and while you are at it, who are you? i am sincerely interested because i am a fan first and foremost. Are you the alu weight weenie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kelly_%28businessman%29

jr59

11-06-2012, 09:10 PM

I think that's Charlie Kelly, if not I'll stand corrected.

And please, I do enjoy the stories, and I'm not a MTB fan at all.
Just as I enjoy Steve Garos stories of the first MTB races.

It's good stuff!

As I said; If I'm mistaken, please forgive me!

fiamme red

11-06-2012, 09:13 PM

I've just been browsing the OP's website. Among other things, I found his page on piano moving fascinating:

http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/kelly_moving.htm

William

11-06-2012, 09:29 PM

Repack Rider was part of the movement that drove these guys to the forefront, and he is understandably proud of that. I think it is great that a pioneer in our shared passion logs into this forum and gives us some insight and experience on 'the way it was'.

I for one hope Repack keeps with us and spreads his wealth of experience and his secret for his continued passion for cycling, whether it be on dirt or asphalt.

To Repack Rider!:beer:

I agree. Great info shared by someone who lived it.:cool: I used to do a lot of bmx as a kid but I have recently gotten back into off-road again and I'm loving my retro Sawer 29'er in the dirt.

Keep it coming!

William

nicrump

11-07-2012, 07:08 AM

i am really sorry if i anyone felt disrespected by my comments. this group did clearly lead in a way and to an era others did not.

i was not trying to take credit for the sport or anything like that. hell, i was a small child when this stuff was going on. i will leave it at that.

William

11-07-2012, 07:14 AM

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 10:28 AM

I've been hearing these arguments for years, which is why I started the thread. I'm pretty crusty and hard to insult, so I don't mind the occasional flame.

It is obvious that we were not the first people to ride on dirt. I know of many local small groups that did before I ever rode a ten-speed, plus of course the Buffalo Soldiers and any number of other military cycling experiments.

For that matter, a dear and departed friend named John Finley Scott (look him up) was riding a bike in the early '50s that was virtually identical to the designs we came up with 25 years later. But John lived in a different era of cycling, and his bike was the only one of its kind. No one else that he knew wanted one.

The revolution burst out of Marin when a few people started building bikes designed specifically for the purpose and putting them on sale. The revolution was organic, from the bottom up, not industry driven with a marketing plan and a big factory pumping out the products. It was a few people who turned their lives over to this silly hobby because the passion was so intense that we had to share it. There was no "plan." There were bikes that sold as quickly as we could make them in a funky firetrap of a rented garage. I filed for a trademark on our company name "MountainBikes," but the lawyer who filled out the application blew it and we didn't get trademark protection for the name, which became the generic name for the new type of bike.

At my first bicycle trade show in 1981 Gary and I had an "exhibit" consisting of two bikes, a folding card table and a bunch of cheap photocopied literature. Longtime bike industry people ignored us, but their kids, who probably had ridden BMX, were riveted. As soon as they saw the bikes, they did the math and understood what we were doing.

One bike industry bigwig stopped by to have a look. He said, "Guys, I love your passion, but I have been in this business a long time and I know the market. The future of the bike business is aerodynamic components."

As some have noted, I have a website which is a lot more comprehensive than this thread. Click my profile.

Hindmost

11-07-2012, 10:48 AM

"My club, Velo-Club Tamalpais, was a racing club, but virtually every member also owned a clunker."

1976 Fairfax criterium/Tour of Marin. While chilling at the van, my buddy says that I have to go over and take a look at one of their bikes. A Schwinn with Huret derailleurs, TA cranks, and fat tires was laying on the lawn. I had never seen anything like it! The implications were obvious.

velotel

11-07-2012, 11:29 AM

jr59

11-07-2012, 11:36 AM

heck, I just want him to post more!

You also Volotel

mosca

11-07-2012, 12:39 PM

I really enjoy this stuff and hope Charlie will put his flame-suit on and post here on a regular basis.

I have similar experience to Nick Crumpton as well (and didn't find his comments disrespectful at all), having ridden all manner of wonky bikes over all kinds of terrain in the late '70s/early '80s. Still vividly remember the day I saw my first "real" mountain bike, a fillet-brazed Ritchey with the Bullmoose bars - maybe my first realization that there was a thing called "functional art".

Anyway, love the history lessons, that really is a great thing to add to this forum.

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 12:59 PM

Challenging Charlie on the history of mountain biking is like challenging Owen Mulholland on the history of road racing. You'll lose. Simple as that. Not based on opinions, simple historic facts fully backed up. The both of them are like that.

Funny. Owen is three days older than I am, and we have been friends for 40 years. Owen is an encyclopedia of road racing.

Now back to our regularly scheduled argument.

firerescuefin

11-07-2012, 01:27 PM

Anyway, love the history lessons, that really is a great thing to add to this forum.

+ 1k

Ti Designs

11-07-2012, 01:47 PM

The bragging rights to inventing mountain biking have been revoked 'cause they all doped.

vjp

11-07-2012, 02:03 PM

BumbleBeeDave

11-07-2012, 02:19 PM

At my first bicycle trade show in 1981 Gary and I had an "exhibit" consisting of two bikes, a folding card table and a bunch of cheap photocopied literature.

I'm getting this mental image of you guys plopped in the middle of NAHBS next to the huge Vanilla or other booth. :p

BBD

fiamme red

11-07-2012, 02:29 PM

One bike industry bigwig stopped by to have a look. He said, "Guys, I love your passion, but I have been in this business a long time and I know the market. The future of the bike business is aerodynamic components."Shimano AX was all the rage in 1981. Cool stuff, but I don't think it was in production more than two years.

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 02:52 PM

Charlie, this so great that you are posting here!! I have read your blog and found it fascinating, it is really cool that you are keeping this history.

I have a question about Tom Cuthbertson. He published his book "Bike Tripping" in '72 and I remember devouring it in high school about '73. He had a section on how to build a "Klunker" in it and about riding off road and I am wondering if this was an influence on the scene as it started in '76 or so by your account?

Thanks

I tried to find that original reference but could not. Nothing we did was inspired by anything we read. Like I said, we were hardly the first people to modify bikes for off-road. It's entirely possible Cuthbertson was influenced by seeing John Finley Scott's "Woodsey Bike" built 20 years earlier.

I'll look for that book. Thanks for the tip.

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 02:58 PM

Shimano AX was all the rage in 1981. Cool stuff, but I don't think it was in production more than two years.

The Shimano exhibit that year was big enough to have its own ZIP Code and weather report. It featured pounding disco musical themes, video presentation, and a host and hostess of salespeople. The video showed wind tunnel tests and laminar air flow, and demonstrated that you could be .004% more efficient if your derailleur didn't have sharp edges.

Can't say I was impressed by anything beyond the sheer intensity of the presentation. To my mind this was clear evidence that they had run out of ideas, and that we had a better one.

Then, of course there was ALENAX... Don't get me started.

Matt-H

11-07-2012, 03:05 PM

Awesome to read your posts again, Charlie. I've been digging through your site ever since you first started posting here. Lots of great history to be found there, and the photos are great.

Ti Designs

11-07-2012, 03:06 PM

The video showed wind tunnel tests and laminar air flow, and demonstrated that you could be .004% more efficient if your derailleur didn't have sharp edges.

30 years later and Cervelo is still doing the same testing...

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 03:16 PM

The bragging rights to inventing mountain biking have been revoked 'cause they all doped.

We were the first bike racers to institute drug testing.

Right after the harvest.

vjp

11-07-2012, 03:18 PM

I tried to find that original reference but could not. Nothing we did was inspired by anything we read. Like I said, we were hardly the first people to modify bikes for off-road. It's entirely possible Cuthbertson was influenced by seeing John Finley Scott's "Woodsey Bike" built 20 years earlier.

I'll look for that book. Thanks for the tip.

Here is a link...

http://www.amazon.com/Bike-Tripping-Tom-Cuthbertson/dp/0394707753

And I see on the bottom of the cover that it has a contribution by Albert Eisentraut which is cool.

I read online a little about the author and found out that he went to the UK in the early 70's and learned about, and how to, cyclocross and then started the first CX series in Santa Cruz.

My long term memory is pretty fair, and I think that the Klunker info in the book was more of the "this is cool, build one of these" than "I invented this" as you say, stuff was going on, but the epicenter was in your backyard.

My first recollection of a "Mountain Bike" was seeing a pic of a Ritchey in Skateboarder in about 1978. I believe it probably was somehow connected to the skater/shooter that shot the Repack footage that recently surfaced.

Thanks again.

John H.

11-07-2012, 03:29 PM

I think some of the OG Fairfaxer's still are! -)

We were the first bike racers to institute drug testing.

Right after the harvest.

nicrump

11-07-2012, 03:59 PM

We were the first bike racers to institute drug testing.

so you knew who was holding out on you.

sean

11-07-2012, 06:12 PM

Great thread.

I love reading first hand account of things that people actually experienced. Much better than any wiki article :)

I think it's important to remember it's not who did it first, but who actually took the ball and ran- the people that made it something concrete and took the time to push it forward.

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 07:33 PM

witcomb has gone nuts.

Didn't read the thread because it's dumb. People have been racing each other on bikes since they (bikes) were born. Oh yeah the roads were dirt and when they weren't they were just goat paths in the mountains or just...ruts. I guess you'd call that single track these days.

Repack? They're cruisers, not much different than my mtb circa 1981.

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 07:37 PM

Didn't read the thread because it's dumb.

And that ignorance entitles you to an opinion?

People have been racing each other on bikes since they (bikes) were born.

A point I made repeatedly in the thread that you didn't read.

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 07:48 PM

And that ignorance entitles you to an opinion?

A point I made repeatedly in the thread that you didn't read.

I know full well the Marin-based history of the sport and don't need to be lectured by a guy looking to "spread the word" some 3 decades later.

Been riding there for about 20 years old timer and have gotten two speeding tickets. Don't get sanctimonious on me. They're just bikes, unless you want this thread to be argumentative.

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 08:00 PM

Having gone back and read the two threads I've pieced together you're Alice's beau. As such I'll apologize but still stand by my words.

You and Old Potato should "discuss" mountain bikes.

Repack Rider

11-07-2012, 08:12 PM

Having gone back and read the two threads I've pieced together you're Alice's beau. As such I'll apologize but still stand by my words.

You and Old Potato should "discuss" mountain bikes.

Don't know "Old Potato," but if he shows up here I'll address his concerns.

My wife's name is Mary. Jacquie Phelan is married to Charlie Cunningham. Shows what you know.

I didn't start this thread without knowing there would be acrimony, and you delivered. I'll be happy to compare my contributions to the sport with yours.

Moderator

11-07-2012, 08:20 PM

Please take a break, or add RR to your ignore list . . . If the thread doesn't interest you, why not just go find another to read? We have plenty.

Moderator

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 08:26 PM

Please take a break, or add RR to your ignore list . . . If the thread doesn't interest you, why not just go find another to read? We have plenty.

Moderator

Dear Moderator -- who are you and what is your reading comprehension level?

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 08:28 PM

Don't know "Old Potato," but if he shows up here I'll address his concerns.

My wife's name is Mary. Jacquie Phelan is married to Charlie Cunningham. Shows what you know.

I didn't start this thread without knowing there would be acrimony, and you delivered. I'll be happy to compare my contributions to the sport with yours.

You're right I don't know. You're Kelly then?

I didn't know this was a pissing match but when you title the thread MTB Origins Argument Thread and tell us you invented it...

I'm pretty sure you wanted and argument. Don't mind me, I've read this stuff a lot. Anyway post away -- some of it I missed and is interesting.

Bruce K

11-07-2012, 08:35 PM

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 08:43 PM

Let's make it real clear th....

Be civil or be gone.

Is that at a reading comprehension level YOU can understand?

This is not going to be a peeing contest. If you want to have civil discourse on this subject, go for it, but enough of the personal attacks.

BK

With the amount of stuff that goes on here, people threatening others with physical violence, name calling...

If this guy with 3 posts called Moderator with a Modbot sig line should be respected you should let us know. Otherwise I apologized and, if you read my words above, it sure sounds like the OP wanted to "argue". If I'm to take that lead and get modded...why?

Peter B

11-07-2012, 08:53 PM

I know full well the Marin-based history of the sport and don't need to be lectured by a guy looking to "spread the word" some 3 decades later.

Been riding there for about 20 years old timer and have gotten two speeding tickets. Don't get sanctimonious on me. They're just bikes, unless you want this thread to be argumentative.

Just had a look at your profile.

"tannhauser has not made any friends yet "

I wonder why?

Steve in SLO

11-07-2012, 08:56 PM

It is time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S8tc6y0uvQ

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 09:01 PM

Just had a look at your profile.

"tannhauser has not made any friends yet "

I wonder why?

You and I have met, have had a friendly conversation and have spoken elsewhere in a friendly manner. We have a least 3 friends/acquaintances in common in real life.

I always think there is a very distinct possibility what a person presents in person and on the internet are two entirely different things. Up to you to decide who I really am.

Peter B

11-07-2012, 09:03 PM

You and I have met, have had a friendly conversation and have spoken elsewhere in a friendly manner. We have a least 3 friends/acquaintances in common in real life.

I always think there is a very distinct possibility what a person presents in person and on the internet are two entirely different things. Up to you to decide who I really am.

You don't have to guess who I am.

tannhauser

11-07-2012, 09:06 PM

You don't have to guess who I am.

I know what you present, that's it.

Flying Pigeon

11-07-2012, 09:06 PM

In case anyone can see this exhibit in the San Francisco airport (ongoing through february), and hasn't already:
Repack to Rwanda: The Origins, Evolution, and Global Reach of the Mountain Bike (http://www.flysfo.com/web/page/sfo_museum/exhibitions/international_terminal_exhibitions/mountain_bikes/index.html)

It has to be the best collection of Marin MTB history so far.

William

11-07-2012, 09:17 PM

With the amount of stuff that goes on here, people threatening others with physical violence, name calling...

And that's been dealt with case by case.

if you read my words above, it sure sounds like the OP wanted to "argue". If I'm to take that lead and get modded...why?

The OP started the threads to address a specific response from another member in a different thread. They have since worked it out or at least agreed to disagree. The tone of your responses seems to indicate you're looking to get into a pissing match. That's what appears to have been the point of the mods responses. Judging from some other members responses they are not alone.

William

Peter B

11-07-2012, 09:18 PM

jtakeda

11-07-2012, 09:50 PM

I've been meaning to go to SFO but was in for a shock when the roundtrip BART ride was $17 or so.

Decided it was an adventure for another day but thanks for reminding me of it.

choke

11-07-2012, 09:53 PM

RR, thank you. I've really enjoyed reading your posts. :beer:

quickfeet

11-07-2012, 11:59 PM

That escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast!

4Rings6Stars

11-08-2012, 12:23 AM

RR - thanks for sharing and please keep going. It's refreshing to read something actually about riding a bike and not about pro road cycling.

Mods - Is "Moderator" a real moderator? What's with the anonymity?

That escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast!

Brick killed a guy...

alexstar

11-08-2012, 12:24 AM

Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

Bruce K

11-08-2012, 04:33 AM

Yes, Moderator is a real moderator.

They just chose to be a bit less public with their profile.

Kind of like some members.....:rolleyes:

BK

pcxmbfj

11-08-2012, 07:03 AM

This is a great thread.

I got to ride with Gary Fisher a few years ago when he came to a Trek Store grand opening.

With the chatter about the celebrity rider I was introduced to "Klunkers", the most concise history of the sport I'd found.

My hats off to RR and the rest of the Marin crowd.

MTBing became my passion in the mid 90's and is still my preferred riding.

54ny77

11-08-2012, 07:41 AM

RR--what was your experience on how the mountainbiking phenomenon was adopted/took off/etc. overseas (europe and elsewhere)? Given the history of cyclocross over yonder, was mb'ing viewed as some weird thing, or [ ]?

Thanks for sharing these great stories.

By the way do you remember a bunch of lunatic So Cal mtb guys that went by the name of Laguna Rads? Lot of 'em worked for Cook Bros back then, I'd join often for local rides. Pretty hair raising.

djg21

11-08-2012, 08:33 AM

We were the first bike racers to institute drug testing.

Right after the harvest.

Who won?:cool:

Repack Rider

11-08-2012, 05:04 PM

RR--what was your experience on how the mountainbiking phenomenon was adopted/took off/etc. overseas (europe and elsewhere)? Given the history of cyclocross over yonder, was mb'ing viewed as some weird thing, or ?

There was a parallel movement in England. A fellow named Geoff Apps had designed an off-road bike he called the "Range Rider." We were in regular correspondence and he supplied us with Finnish tires (tyres) from a company called Hakka.

Because he designed his bikes around bridle path riding in muddy terrain and not racing, it had a bolt-upright position, fenders and a very high BB. You can check him out on the Cleland website (http://clelandcycles.wordpress.com/about/). The riding costume is classic, nothing like what we wore back then.

There was a long-established club in England called the Rough Stuff Fellowship (http://www.rsf.org.uk/), who rode xc on their drop-bar bikes. Since they didn't race, they had no incentive to make the bikes more rugged. Gary and I were two of the three members of the RSF in California. The third was Holland Jones, who owned Fulton Street Cyclery in SF.

I contributed an article to their club newsletter about the 1980 Crested Butte-Aspen ride.

By the way do you remember a bunch of lunatic So Cal mtb guys that went by the name of Laguna Rads? Lot of 'em worked for Cook Bros back then, I'd join often for local rides. Pretty hair raising.

Of course I knew the Rads. Dave Wonderly and Jack Witmer were members. Witmer bought Cook Brothers Racing from...the Cook Brothers, Gary and Craig. The Rads had a crazy racecourse that I never rode, called the Leaping Lizard trail.

Repack Rider

11-08-2012, 05:10 PM

With the chatter about the celebrity rider I was introduced to "Klunkers", the most concise history of the sport I'd found

Some of the footage for "Klunkerz" (sic) was taken from this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVWP6VaLtvw) shot in 1979 for a program called Evening Magazine.

BTW, once you use the word "Klunkerz" in a post, director Billy Savage shows up.

Hi Bill.

BumbleBeeDave

11-08-2012, 05:36 PM

. . . REALLY cool vid!

BBD

jr59

11-08-2012, 05:37 PM

really cool thread!

John H.

11-08-2012, 06:03 PM

I gotta get Sunshine (LBS) to bring back those yellow and blue cycling caps!

William

11-08-2012, 10:04 PM

Klunkerz...now that's my kind of race!:cool:

Thank your for sharing, that was great.....and now I have Steve Miller buzzing in my head.;)

William

54ny77

11-08-2012, 11:14 PM

Awesome!

I remember Dave W. somewhat, mostly that he FLEW down mountains. Nobody (or very few) was better.

I forget Leaping Lizard but we used to bomb down a lot of trails, one of which culminated in someone's backyard. Stairs, I think it was called. Always good times getting chased by Irvine Co. guards who didn't take kindly to trespassing on the coastal hills/fireroads....

You probably knew Chuck from Rainbow Bikes too. Crotchety guy, but we all liked him and he was good to us. As kids we hung out there all the time, surely drove him bonkers, and up until fairly recently (a couple/few years ago) he was still in biz. I don't konw what happened to him since.

In those early days we ogled things like Yeti's, Mountain Goat (the paintwork on them was always stunning), and the early Fisher & Ritchey stuff.

Of course I knew the Rads. Dave Wonderly and Jack Witmer were members. Witmer bought Cook Brothers Racing from...the Cook Brothers, Gary and Craig. The Rads had a crazy racecourse that I never rode, called the Leaping Lizard trail.

Klunkerbill

11-09-2012, 05:51 PM

Hi, RR. :cool:

Ti Designs

11-09-2012, 06:22 PM

I'll be happy to compare my contributions to the sport with yours.

I invented fountain biking...

oldpotatoe

11-10-2012, 07:57 AM

Having gone back and read the two threads I've pieced together you're Alice's beau. As such I'll apologize but still stand by my words.

You and Old Potato should "discuss" mountain bikes.

What's a 'mountain bike'??

I'll be the first to acknowledge that I work on them but don't own one, haven't for 20 years but the evolution of the "MTB" is an interesting one. Kinda along the lines of SkateBoarding(don't do that either).

Somebody send me a 'clue'..who is RR?

PM or something. I recognize a lot of the names, since I have been in the 'biz, since mid 80s(late bloomer), about when mountain biking along with click shifting really took off in the US..