Faster Backwards

[I Want Sachs?]

Serious question: What defines a Faster Backwards position that I see so many people writing/commenting about?

Is it a level saddle to bar drop or higher, legs not near total extended on downstroke, or is it something else? Does it apply only for thin tires, race bikes, hybrid, or MTB?

[Puget Pounder]

I was curious too and saw this thread:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=101781

[William]

A term generally used by some to describe a bike where the bars are higher than the saddle.





William

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that the Jerk (Craig Gaulzetti) claims to have invented. Apparently used to make fun of any bike that doesn't conform to what racer boys feel like a bike should look like.

From my experience, users of the term seem to be unacquainted with the reality that not every rider is as flexible as a 22 year old racer boy and might need some sort of specialized geometry to enable them to actually ride and enjoy the experience.

BBD

[I Want Sachs?]

Seems like Serotta has been taking a beating about designing quite a few bikes with bar level or higher than saddle.

If that is the case, is Mr. Brent Steelman considered a "Faster Backward" Builder?
http://www.steelmancycles.com/Bike%20of%20the%20week.html

http://www.steelmancycles.com/Stephanie%27s%20SR.html

http://www.steelmancycles.com/Michelle%27s%20Dragon%20SR.html

Same goes for Mr. Peter Weigle.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/8126049487/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/7117245899/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/6943799903/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/6224787946/in/photostream/

But man, all these bikes look proper to me. Perhaps it has to do with the Serotta riders using spacers whereas these bikes achieved the same position with custom stems and quill?

[Louis]

aka "visually proper"

aka your bike doesn't look like mine, so it's a POS

[sg8357]

FBW spotters field guide.

Saddle less than 6cm higher than bars.
Seat bag
Tires exceed 25mm
Spacers under stem
Mirror anywhere
Rider exceeds 8.4% body fat
Anatomic bars
More than 1 water bottle

[Louis]

Saddle less than 6cm higher than bars. I'll have to measure
Seat bag Got one (more than one)
Tires exceed 25mm Safe on that score
Spacers under stem Guilty
Mirror anywhere None here
Rider exceeds 8.4% body fat Guilty
Anatomic bars Nope
More than 1 water bottle Almost never

[Fishbike]

I am usually perplexed by people who are so consumed with other folks' riding position. Now of course there are certain fit parameters that will increase the odds of a comfortable and well-handling bike. But I just don't get the need to mock the position of recreational riders or the bike builders (begins with an "S" and I ain't talkin' Specialized) who try to make their customers comfy and happy. When I see "mature" folks or "big boned" folks pedaling with high handle bars, I ofter think "good for you!" or "work it sister!" (Although I must admit I get a little miffed when peoples' saddles are too low so I suppose I am a little judgmental too. . . .)

[Steve in SLO]

aka "visually proper"

aka your bike doesn't look like mine, so it's a POS

I will never have a "visually proper" bike, which IMHO is about a 56cm square steelie with deep drops. If I did, I would look like a circus monkey riding it. It appears I am forever doomed to ride dorky-looking bikes that cannot possibly plane, which is OK by me because I love riding my dorky-looking bikes that cannot possibly plane.

[dekindy]

Tem invented by armchair bicycle executives to describe the demise of Serotta.:rolleyes:

[firerescuefin]

Faster backwards comes down to this in most cases..

Build yourself up by tearing others down.

....seeing that most of those fits are working around reduced ROM for some reason.

The builder fanboys eat it up which tells you all you need to know about them.:help:

[bigreen505]

After getting a fit at BCSM I'm pretty much in the faster backwards camp with a 2 cm saddle to bar drop and a tiny little stem that points straight up in the air, perched on top of an already long head tube. But I rode 50 miles without pain for the first time in my life. When the BCSM fitters put me and bike on the trainer they just looked at me and said "wow, you have a lot of injuries to work around." Yeah, tell me about it.

[54ny77]

i'm coining a new term, fasterneverdelivered.

interpret or do with it as you will...:p

[lhuerta]

. . . that the Jerk (Craig Gaulzetti) claims to have invented. Apparently used to make fun of any bike that doesn't conform to what racer boys feel like a bike should look like.

From my experience, users of the term seem to be unacquainted with the reality that not every rider is as flexible as a 22 year old racer boy and might need some sort of specialized geometry to enable them to actually ride and enjoy the experience.

BBD

+1...I think you are correct. The same guy who claims that "european geometry" is superior to other geometry, but with no clear definition of what variables define either. Lou

[sevencyclist]

Here is my current commute with Faster Backwards setup according the criteria above.

Handlebar level with saddle.
Saddle bags. A Jannd bag and a Brooks D leather bag. With commuter bike bag.
Gatorskin tires in 25mm.
Tons of spacers and 10 degrees riser stem.
Mirror on left handlebar end.
20 lbs over ideal weight behind the camera.
Easton EC 90 which is a compact semi-anatomic carbon bar. (on a lugged steel bike)
Two water bottles.

[dauwhe]

Saddle less than 6cm higher than bars. Yes, but slightly lower than bars
Seat bag. No, but there is a 28 liter handlebar bag
Tires exceed 25mm Yes, by 17mm!
Spacers under stem Yessir
Mirror anywhere No
Rider exceeds 8.4% body fat Yep
Anatomic bars Nope
More than 1 water bottle always

Faster backwards? No
Classic Rando bike? Yes

[dancinkozmo]

...so which bike is faster ....a fasterbacKwards that gets ridden , or a visuallyproper that hangs on the wall ?

[beeatnik]

I recall a thread where either RS or another prominent builder mentioned seeing 80 year olds in France riding road bikes in THE proper position, which would be the antithesis of faster backwards. I dunno. I guess the argument is that proper weight distribution on a road bike (aka a race bike) equals comfort. N'est pas?

[dancinkozmo]

..big deal...they eat snails in france, They think jerry lewis is a comedic genius and their women dont shave their armpits....

[fuzzalow]

I recall a thread where either RS or another prominent builder mentioned seeing 80 year olds in France riding road bikes in THE proper position, which would be the antithesis of faster backwards. I dunno. I guess the argument is that proper weight distribution on a road bike (aka a race bike) equals comfort. N'est pas?

To be fair, some of those European cyclists seem to know what they are doing. Seemingly without all the angst about knowing how to ride "proper" as evidenced here - they just do it. There was a picture of Sarkozy on a bike posted here a while back. He was pretty dead on with his position.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=93375&stc=1&d=1333988067

Found the picture from an earlier Paceline thread. This guy has a position on the bike that would put some of the FB crowd to shame. What he knows isn't about flexibility or core strength, it's knowing how to ride.

..big deal...they eat snails in france, They think jerry lewis is a comedic genius and their women dont shave their armpits....

Well, Ben Franklin was absolutely captivated and influenced by the French. He might have known something.

[dancinkozmo]

Didnt franklin get VD in france ?

[Louis]

Didnt franklin get VD in france ?

Back then, who didn't ?

[jeffreyt]

[QUOTE=I Want Sachs?;1236731]Seems like Serotta has been taking a beating about designing quite a few bikes with bar level or higher than saddle.

Same goes for Mr. Peter Weigle. http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353569@N00/6224787946/in/photostream/ QUOTE]



Hey now!!! You just hold on a second here. This Weigle link that you've posted is my bike that I bought from Peter at the 2011 Philly Bike Expo. He was riding it before I got my grubby meat paws on it.

I'm not upset to be in the Faster Backwards club. I just found it ammusing to see my bike linked here.

hugs and kisses

[cfox]

No one, even Jerk, would consider a rando bike with a level saddle/bar "faster backwards."

Do you guys actually think every person riding a FB bike is suffering from some horrific injury that doesn't allow then to bend enough to touch their knees? I think ortho bikes are awesome and let some folks enjoy riding when they otherwise couldn't. But, really, there are tons of bikes out there that are just set up badly when it isn't neccesary. I know plenty of folks who started off with bar>saddle because they assumed it would be more comfortable. When they try a bike with bar=saddle, or even some drop, they are amazed at how much better the bike handles. Suddenly it doesn't feel like a shopping cart. My 70yr old mother-in-law is my latest convert and she couldn't be happier to be off the mary poppins machine.

[merckx]

This is fasterbackwards.

[e-RICHIE]

ortho bikes
<cut>
mary poppins machine

The vocabulary expands atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:):rolleyes::cool:
:p:rolleyes::)
;):cool::mad:

[Louis]

the mary poppins machine.

I bet your setup doesn't plane as well...

[BumbleBeeDave]

But, really, there are tons of bikes out there that are just set up badly when it isn't neccesary.

You make a legit point. But why make sarcastic fun of them and their owners? That's what happened too often when that term was/is used. By its very nature it's an insult.

The term is way too often used accompanied with a sneer . . .

BBD

[EDS]

Serious question: What defines a Faster Backwards position that I see so many people writing/commenting about?

Is it a level saddle to bar drop or higher, legs not near total extended on downstroke, or is it something else? Does it apply only for thin tires, race bikes, hybrid, or MTB?

I believe the term "fasterbackwards" is a reference designed to cause middle aged men to get their panties in a twist.

[rustychisel]

please help, I've always wanted to learn how to sneer on the internet.

I can do sarcasm, irony, and some other stuff, usually misplaced, but sneering is hard. :help:

[Louis]

I believe the term "fasterbackwards" is a reference designed [by apparently insecure younger men] to cause middle aged men to get their panties in a twist.

Fixed it for you. ;)

[echelon_john]

I'll jump in before this gets locked.

To me, faster backwards describes a custom bike that looks like it had to be modified to fit the rider. Usually in terms of tons of steerer/spacers at the front end, and/or a ridiculously short (80mm +/-) stem.

And I think the LEGITIMATE aspect of the derision arises from the belief that, if you're paying/waiting for/taking the time to buy custom, then the thing shouldn't look like it was cobbled together to fit.

As shown in the photo of the brown RS above; it's not about bar & saddle height being the same; it's about an expensive custom frame requiring 80mm of spacers to make that position possible.

Good builders can make bikes that fit the rider--even if the rider isn't 'a 22 yo racer boy'--without looking like crap on wheels, if the process works.

IMO, this kind of situation arises when the 'professional' fitter at the front end designates a given rider setup, e.g. 'saddle-bar drop will be 5mm,' while at the same time designating frame size, e.g. '55c-t max even though the saddle height is 80cm.'

You don't see many one-man operations delivering bikes that need poorly-done nose jobs to fit properly.

[cfox]

I bet your setup doesn't plane as well...

very true, nor carry lunch as well

You make a legit point. But why make sarcastic fun of them and their owners? That's what happened too often when that term was/is used. By its very nature it's an insult.

The term is way too often used accompanied with a sneer . . .

BBD

this is true. the only time I actually say (type, I guess) the phrase is in threads like this. No sneer from this guy. If you met me you'd see I am in no position to make fun of ANYONE.

[dancinkozmo]

The vocabulary expands atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:):rolleyes::cool:
:p:rolleyes::)
;):cool::mad:


BBD nailed it....

This is why i wouldnt be caught dead on one of your bikes...way too much smug .

[Louis]

OK, we can now lock this one. :(

[thwart]

Well, before the lock comes...

My 70yr old mother-in-law is my latest convert and she couldn't be happier to be off the mary poppins machine.

[pdmtong]

When they try a bike with bar=saddle, or even some drop, they are amazed at how much better the bike handles.

yup...my ottrott handles even nicer when I went from 5.5cm drop to 8cm drop.

[paulh]

Hey, if you can only ride 70 minutes while eating altoids, why not look euro-cool.;)

[dancinkozmo]

yup...my ottrott handles even nicer when I went from 5.5cm drop to 8cm drop.

Problem is , your nutsac is on fire after 20 minutes

[fuzzalow]

Problem is , your nutsac is on fire after 20 minutes

If this what happens from your own direct experience, there just might be a slight chance you're doing it wrong.

[pdmtong]

Problem is , your nutsac is on fire after 20 minutes

no issues here...recent ride on rapha classic bibs/arione cx (firmer than the std arione)/75miles/8,000' hopped off and felt fresh as a daisy.

maybe en fuego at 100 miles...but certainly not in 20 minutes.

oh, and I was alive when kennedy was shot. so youth ain't on my side...

[SPOKE]

This is why i wouldnt be caught dead on one of your bikes...way too much smug .

Uncalled for........

[William]

And on that note it's closed.

It is a term generally used in a derogatory manner and tends fire things up a bit so we'll let it cool off for a while.






William