A23 o/c....at last!

[echelon_john]

Just heard from Velocity and A23 O/Cs will be shipping by Friday. This is long-awaited good news! I have a bunch coming; psyched to build some up. Should help a lot with Campy rears.

[bicycletricycle]

thats super news!

[witcombusa]

Their online shop is only showing Black, non MSW in 28 or 32 hole available.

I NEED silver....... :confused:

[echelon_john]

black msw will be first. i don't have timing on silver yet.

Their online shop is only showing Black, non MSW in 28 or 32 hole available.

I NEED silver....... :confused:

[scooter]

What about the DT Swiss RR 440 Asymmetric (o/c) rims in black? DT announced them for 24/28/32 hole counts @ 450g to be available soon. Any word on their availability?

[witcombusa]

Do we know what the ERD will be on the O/C yet?

(front is 601)

[Chance]

Just heard from Velocity and A23 O/Cs will be shipping by Friday. This is long-awaited good news! I have a bunch coming; psyched to build some up. Should help a lot with Campy rears.

Assume this is due to differences in wheel dish. Is Campy that different than Shimano? Have no idea what the numbers are for either. Normally don't like the looks of an O/C rim, but if it works better.....

[oldpotatoe]

Assume this is due to differences in wheel dish. Is Campy that different than Shimano? Have no idea what the numbers are for either. Normally don't like the looks of an O/C rim, but if it works better.....

OC works better for all hubs. Campag RH flange about 1-2mm closer to centerline of hub than others but a reliable rear wheel can be made with a Campagnolo and non OC rim.

Silver 32h OC there this Thursday is what they told me. Black to follow.

28h, non OC right now.

ERD 601..OC about $5-$10 more than A23..

I have a few coming as soon as they get them.

BTW-it's interesting that shimano and DT make hubs shimano 11s compatible by making the total length 132-ish mm. I just got a DT350, shimano 11s compatible, that's just shy of 132mm...

[DfCas]

How do you caculate spoke length for O/C rims?

[oldpotatoe]

How do you caculate spoke length for O/C rims?

I use a Wheelsmith Spoc calc system..ERD, hub dimensions, into a calculator..then add 1mm for the LH spoke length VS 2mm..is all.

Even tho the holes aren't in the center of the rim, the differences are small when compared to a non OC rim..wish all rears were OC...but more expensive to make, drill, etc...

BTW-somebody asked about DT 440..the DT OC rim..first of the year is what they said

[srice]

How do you caculate spoke length for O/C rims?

Just use Spocalc - it has a setting for offset spoke beds.

Or just calculate it as a centered rim and move the hub flanges over by the offset amount. - move the driveside flange out by Xmm and move the non-driveside in by Xmm where X is the amount of offset in the rim

[christian]

Yay, the fat cross-eyed chick has arrived. I liked the Aerohead OC just fine, thank you very much.

[oldpotatoe]

Yay, the fat cross-eyed chick has arrived. I liked the Aerohead OC just fine, thank you very much.

Mee too. I don't think wide rims adds any meaningful advantage to the mix, presents a few problems. OC, on the ther hand, is a great idea but more expensive to make.

[witcombusa]

Yay, the fat cross-eyed chick has arrived. I liked the Aerohead OC just fine, thank you very much.

I actually prefer the Synergy and it's O/C rear. Have three wheelsets with them that have seen some moderately hard use (including Hawk's Rd and Rollins Pass) and have been wonderfully durable (Shimano freehubs). Not a fan of aero rims but will give the A23's a shot on the MXL.

[Chance]

Mee too. I don't think wide rims adds any meaningful advantage to the mix, presents a few problems. OC, on the ther hand, is a great idea but more expensive to make.

You stated in previous post that a non-OC rim can also build a nice wheel even with Campy 11 flange spacing. So from a practical standpoint (prefer not getting into a lot of theoretical stuff that may be hard to follow) what makes OC a great idea compared to other options? That is, compared to a different rim design, or using more spokes, or using twice as many drive-side spokes than non-drive side as is common on many Campy rear wheels, and so on....?

Do you personally ride OC rear wheels? If so, exclusively, or do you mix it up? Get the general OC advantage but just can't warm up to the idea for some reason.

[oldpotatoe]

You stated in previous post that a non-OC rim can also build a nice wheel even with Campy 11 flange spacing. So from a practical standpoint (prefer not getting into a lot of theoretical stuff that may be hard to follow) what makes OC a great idea compared to other options? That is, compared to a different rim design, or using more spokes, or using twice as many drive-side spokes than non-drive side as is common on many Campy rear wheels, and so on....?

Do you personally ride OC rear wheels? If so, exclusively, or do you mix it up? Get the general OC advantage but just can't warm up to the idea for some reason.

11s Campag hub is the same as 9s Campag hub.

Anytime you can have higher tension on the LH side spokes, w/o moving the LH flange inboard, well, it's a good thing.

I ride tubulars mostly and there are no OC tubular rims. I also use freewheel hubs and 36 rims.

If all things being equal, say a non OC rim and a OC rim, I would choose the OC rim BUT non OC rims make fine wheels also.

So if somebody wants to have a wheel made from CXP-30 and a Campag hub, that's not a big deal...unlike some on the interweb(none who are on this forum) who flatly refuse to make a Campagnolo hub rear wheel w/o a OC rim..(Initials are PW). That's balderdash. I have build lots (1500++) rear wheels using Campag hubs w/o OC rims.

[christian]

You stated in previous post that a non-OC rim can also build a nice wheel even with Campy 11 flange spacing. So from a practical standpoint (prefer not getting into a lot of theoretical stuff that may be hard to follow) what makes OC a great idea compared to other options?More even spoke tension means they're less likely to go out of true. The other options - wacky lacing and stuff like that - may work fine too, but it's not really an option for proper, non-out-of-the-box, wheels.

[witcombusa]

The offset dish has just gotten way out of hand in my opinon. When I look at a rear 120mm 5sp wheel next to a 9sp wheel the problem is obvious. Sure spokes and rims have improved as far as durability....and it's a damn good thing or your new 11sp Campy rear wheel would last 100 miles! Spoke tension is just too biased.

Prior to the O/C rear rims I would use a 36h rear with a 32h front. With the offset rim I now use 32h at both ends with the same durability.

I won't build a modern freehub now without an O/C rim.

[Chance]

More even spoke tension means they're less likely to go out of true. The other options - wacky lacing and stuff like that - may work fine too, but it's not really an option for proper, non-out-of-the-box, wheels.

What do you mean by wacky and non-out-of-the-box?:confused:

For example, if a rider wanted to ride (or was willing to accept the extra weight) of riding a rear wheel with 36 spokes like oldpotatoe mentioned above, would an OC rim with 18-18 spoke count make a better/stronger/stiffer wheel than a standard rim (non-OC) with 12-24 spoke count?

Not a wheel builder myself nor looking to become one, but the even-spoke-tension argument seems to have other solutions like Campy has been using for years. Not sure if that's what you are calling wacky design/lacing. Forget what that pattern is called but seems to work pretty well for those who have tried it.

[Lovetoclimb]

Seeking guidance here:

I currently have two wheelsets built very similar:
Record (black) hubs laced to A-23s 32 spoke 3x front and rear
Chorus hubs laced to A-23s 32 spoke 3x front and rear

I use the wheelsets for cyclocross and road training and racing. They go out of true as often as I would expect from the bumps of off road usage. I ride a lot of gravel and gnarly roads in the mountains.

Would I be getting a noticeable benefit by swapping the rear rims for the OC version? Would it be worth the cost of buying two new rims and rebuilding the wheels?

Thanks for the help.

[echelon_john]

As OP (oldpotato, not original poster) said, you can build a very strong wheel on a campy hub without an O/C rim--folks have been doing it for years.

But, all else being equal, an O/C rim will build a stronger rear wheel on any hub. It will have much more even spoke tension drive-side vs non-drive-side, and will also be laterally stiffer (which may not be perceptible or influence ride feel) due to the better bracing angle of the drive-side spokes.

I don't mean to start a debate about wide vs narrow rims; I just think it's great that another O/C option is coming on the market. More choice=better.

[christian]

What do you mean by wacky and non-out-of-the-box?:confused:Wacky = G3 and other silly lacing patterns. Non-out-of-the-box = wheels built by a person from standard parts which are readily available in an LBS.

For example, if a rider wanted to ride (or was willing to accept the extra weight) of riding a rear wheel with 36 spokes like oldpotatoe mentioned above, would an OC rim with 18-18 spoke count make a better/stronger/stiffer wheel than a standard rim (non-OC) with 12-24 spoke count?Yes. The description of the strength of a wheel could be absurdly reduced into something like the sum of all the spoke tensions. If you assume that the drive side tension is 100kgf and non-drive side on a non-OC rim is about 50kgf, you would get a table like this:

Non-OC
18 DS spokes x 100 kgf
18 NDS spokes x 50 kgf
total tension: 2700kgf

OC:
18 DS spokes x 100kgf
18 NDS spokes x 60kgf
total tension: 2880kgf

G3 (I actually don't know the tension on G3 wheels, so plug in whatever #s make you happy):
8 DS spokes x 130kgf
16 NDS spokes x 100kgf
total tension: 2800 kgf

So, yes, OC and G3 look better. However, a G3 wheel has long sections of unsupported rim - and the rim has to be heavier to allow that. Also more susceptible to tweaks from intra-spoke hits.

Not a wheel builder myself nor looking to become one, but the even-spoke-tension argument seems to have other solutions like Campy has been using for years. Not sure if that's what you are calling wacky design/lacing. Forget what that pattern is called but seems to work pretty well for those who have tried it.

G3 works well, yes. But parts are hard to come by etc. With a really stiff rim, like a Bora, I think it's fine. I actually lust for a set of Boras but I wouldn't ride them on D2R2...

[christian]

I use the wheelsets for cyclocross and road training and racing. They go out of true as often as I would expect from the bumps of off road usage. I ride a lot of gravel and gnarly roads in the mountains.

Would I be getting a noticeable benefit by swapping the rear rims for the OC version? Would it be worth the cost of buying two new rims and rebuilding the wheels?They're not identical, but I have a set of Record 10/DT Champ/Nemeses and a set of Record 10/DT Champ/Aerohead&OC wheels, and I would say that the Nemeses require a touch up every 2500 miles of road usage and the OCs have not for the lifetime of the wheels.

So for 20 minutes twice a year, I'm not that bothered. I'd replace them with OC rims when the brake surfaces wear out.

[Chance]

........
Yes. The description of the strength of a wheel could be absurdly reduced into something like the sum of all the spoke tensions. If you assume that the drive side tension is 100kgf and non-drive side on a non-OC rim is about 50kgf, you would get a table like this:

Non-OC
18 DS spokes x 100 kgf
18 NDS spokes x 50 kgf
total tension: 2700kgf

OC:
18 DS spokes x 100kgf
18 NDS spokes x 60kgf
total tension: 2880kgf

G3 (I actually don't know the tension on G3 wheels, so plug in whatever #s make you happy):
8 DS spokes x 130kgf
16 NDS spokes x 100kgf
total tension: 2800 kgf

.............


Thanks but you lost me there on multiple counts.

Not sure why wheel strength relates to total spoke tension directly. Seems that more tension, if it doesn't accomplish something else of value like providing side bracing, would actually reduce wheel strength. Again, not a wheel builder so it seems counter intuitive.

Regarding your examples (granted they are rough), my understanding is that most modern hubs are indeed "approximately" twice as offset on non-drive than on drive side. Hence 100 kgf on drive side would require 50 kgf on non-drive if using non-OC rims. Using that logic however, if you remove half of the non-drive spokes, shouldn't tension come very close to being equal to those of the drive side? Hence 100 kgf driveside and 100 kgf non-driveside. Can't quite follow why your numbers got off that ratio from the non-OC to G3 examples. Get that spokes angles could very slightly but shouldn't make a 30 percent difference.

Regardless of that which is a detail anyways, comparing 36 spokes to 24 spokes for the G3 isn't probably the best idea. Although to make a wheel using standard hubs, it's easy to see why you selected that spoke count. Guessing that to lace with 12-24 spokes would require custom hub drilling. Unless a 48-spoke hub could be used which may not be made anymore. Maybe not even for tandems.

[bluesea]

So the A23 will not make a good commuter wheel?

[echelon_john]

Perfectly fine. But no reason not to go burlier and do something like the Dyad if it's a dedicated commuter.


So the A23 will not make a good commuter wheel?

[jlwdm]

I have been wanting to buy two sets of Campagnolo non-carbon wheels for some time and threads like this sometimes make me feel like there is too much information available. It makes it harder to make a decision.

Wide rims: some naysayers but overall more riders seem to like them.

Pre-built wheels: they are probably ridiculously good these days. Lots of arguments about proprietary parts required but many custom wheels are really proprietary parts. G3 pattern seems a little weird to me but the Campagnolo wheels get great reviews. I have a set of Ksyrium ES and they have been excellent for 20,000 miles. Two broken spokes - I am weighing too much - and basically no maintenance. Pre-built wheels seem to be able to handle a lot of weight with fewer spokes and not much maintenance - you just can't ride them home after a broken spoke.

Custom wheels: still lots of proprietary issues. Built to your weight and riding style. Cool factor. When riders talk about how rarely you need to true custom wheels the mileage mentioned is way less than my experience with pre-built wheels. Each wheel builder seems to prefer different hubs and rims. Pluses and minuses on DT 240, Chris King, Alchemy and White Industries. I think there are just lots of good hubs.

So I think there are just a ton of good wheels these days - custom and pre-built and there is a lot of wasted time spent on the minor issues with each wheel, rim or hub.

I wish I could just make a decision and quit looking at all of the wheel threads.

Jeff

[christian]

Thanks but you lost me there on multiple counts.

Not sure why wheel strength relates to total spoke tension directly.
Read the book. Even if you don't want to build wheels, Jobst is a good writer. He explains it better than I could ever hope to in a single post.

Seems that more tension, if it doesn't accomplish something else of value like providing side bracing, would actually reduce wheel strength. Again, not a wheel builder so it seems counter intuitive. Wheels die when spokes go slack. Enough spokes go slack you get a taco - the other spokes' tension overwhelms the strength of the rim. So to get a strong wheel, you want wheels with spokes that never go slack. Spokes obviously go slack at -0.1kgf. The higher the tension, the less likely this is to happen.

Using that logic however, if you remove half of the non-drive spokes, shouldn't tension come very close to being equal to those of the drive side? Hence 100 kgf driveside and 100 kgf non-driveside.Ok, make it even. You've still effectively reduced the number of spokes. This does not make a stronger wheel.

Regardless of that which is a detail anyways, comparing 36 spokes to 24 spokes for the G3 isn't probably the best idea. Standard wheels have 32 spokes. G3 wheels have 24. That's not my fault!

It is my fault I used 18 when I meant 16. But still.

[oldpotatoe]

Seeking guidance here:

I currently have two wheelsets built very similar:
Record (black) hubs laced to A-23s 32 spoke 3x front and rear
Chorus hubs laced to A-23s 32 spoke 3x front and rear

I use the wheelsets for cyclocross and road training and racing. They go out of true as often as I would expect from the bumps of off road usage. I ride a lot of gravel and gnarly roads in the mountains.

Would I be getting a noticeable benefit by swapping the rear rims for the OC version? Would it be worth the cost of buying two new rims and rebuilding the wheels?

Thanks for the help.

I think yes for the one you use on dirt, for the other,, probably not worth the $. NOT because they are Campagnolo hubs, BTW-just 'cuz.

[Chance]

Standard wheels have 32 spokes. G3 wheels have 24. That's not my fault!

Not sure what "G3" as a brand or name is limited to, but my interest and therefore question was about any spoke lacing that involves multiples of 3, with two of those going to driveside and the other one to non driveside. Pretty sure that 30 spoke total rear wheels have been done. Don't think 24 is a magical number although it may be. Not certain.

Will try to read the book someday. It's a low priority since building wheels isn't high on my list. Would like to understand principles to help make better wheel selections though.

[Joachim]

Not sure what "G3" as a brand or name is limited to,

Campagnolo G3 lacing pattern....

[christian]

I have been wanting to buy two sets of Campagnolo non-carbon wheels for some time and threads like this sometimes make me feel like there is too much information available. It makes it harder to make a decision.Neutrons. And I'm a box-wheel naysayer. Have a great day!

[Gummee]

I was wondering how this topic got to 3 pages.

Now I know.

M

[Chance]

Campagnolo G3 lacing pattern....

Thanks. Had to look it up to see what it actually is.

http://ligerowheels.wordpress.com/

Apparently it's nothing more that the 2:1 triplet pattern but with spokes grouped in 3's instead of being spread out evenly along rim. From an aesthetics standpoint the regular 2:1 looks more normal and therefore more to my liking. The Campy G3 looks odd to me. Even after years of seeing them around they still look odd (no pun intended).

[Mark McM]

Not Pretty sure that 30 spoke total rear wheels have been done. Don't think 24 is a magical number although it may be. Not certain.

Yes, 30 spoke wheels with 'triplet' lacing has been done - on the Ford Model T:

http://02ea68d.netsolhost.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1927-ford-t-md.jpg

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/89936.jpg



Ford used this design for their dished wheels for the same reason bicycles use this design on dished wheels. Other automobile wire spoke wheels also use different numbers of spokes on the drive side vs. the non-drive side.



Wheels with dished spokes are inherently not as strong as non-dished wheels (all else being equal), and OC rims can act to reduce spoke dish. If dishing is excessive, then other methods such as differential lacing (different numbers of spokes on either side) can be used to mitigate the effects of dishing.

[witcombusa]

bump


Anyone recieved O/C rims yet or maybe shipping comfirmation? :confused:

[echelon_john]

I have a bunch coming in a mix of 28 & 32. Just got tracking info, so they should be here on Thursday.

[ultraman6970]

Just read in the 1st page that shimano 11 hubs are around 132 mm wide?? They didn't want to go 130 and space the thing evenly or at least closest to campy apparently. After seeing the schematics of shimano 11 hubs moving around i was expecting shimano be wiser and just space closer to campagnolo. Now campagnolo will have more room to add 12 when 135 becomes the new standard, thanks shimano.

132 mm in a carbon frame wont do anything but people is anal about that so who knows what is going to happen.

[witcombusa]

Just read in the 1st page that shimano 11 hubs are around 132 mm wide?? They didn't want to go 130 and space the thing evenly or at least closest to campy apparently. After seeing the schematics of shimano 11 hubs moving around i was expecting shimano be wiser and just space closer to campagnolo. Now campagnolo will have more room to add 12 when 135 becomes the new standard, thanks shimano.

132 mm in a carbon frame wont do anything but people is anal about that so who knows what is going to happen.

It's already gone too far...make the insanity stop. 9s was already somewhere
between plenty and enough.

[oldpotatoe]

I have a bunch coming in a mix of 28 & 32. Just got tracking info, so they should be here on Thursday.

I'll have mine on Monday..black 32h.

BUT altho fewer hole choices and black MSW only..the Synergy, even tho 2/3 of a powerbar 'heavier'..is 23mm and OC...don't see the excitement.

[witcombusa]

I'll have mine on Monday..black 32h.

BUT altho fewer hole choices and black MSW only..the Synergy, even tho 2/3 of a powerbar 'heavier'..is 23mm and OC...don't see the excitement.


Synergy (w O/C rear) are great rims. I have three wheelsets with them.
They make a strong, durable and more than light enough build :banana:

Waiting on silver A23's for something a little different on the MXL build.

[witcombusa]

Got my A23's all built up. They look pretty good. Thanks to oldpotatoe for shipping me the rims so quickly. These are polished 32h variants.

[JStonebarger]

Mee too. I don't think wide rims adds any meaningful advantage to the mix, presents a few problems. OC, on the ther hand, is a great idea but more expensive to make.

You don't buy the wider is better argument? For road? Cross? Either?

What problems arise from using wide (23mm?) rims?

Always curious... Thanks.

[oldpotatoe]

You don't buy the wider is better argument? For road? Cross? Either?

What problems arise from using wide (23mm?) rims?

Always curious... Thanks.

I like 'em a lot for 'cross if you are going to go clincher. I think the road use 'may' provide some advantages but small, IMHO. Brake clearance is the biggest 'issue' with wider rims, with some brakes(not all). Not a huge deal but like a lot of stuff 'bike', something new, with some advantages and some disadvantages.

I don't think it's a reason to ditch all your 'narrow' wheels and redo the wheel stable with a bunch of wide rims.

[witcombusa]

Those are 25mm Vittoria's on the rims above. I can't really imagine running anything much narrower than that on them. But for 25-28mm, for me they are a nice option.

They built up very nicely, like all the Velocity rims I have used. They make a nice product. In case anyone is not familiar with the O/C rear rim advantages, the 4mm offset changes the R/L % spoke tension to 64%. A normal A23 on this Campy Chorus hub would come in at 46%. This makes for a more balanced, stronger build.

[JStonebarger]

...I don't think it's a reason to ditch all your 'narrow' wheels and redo the wheel stable with a bunch of wide rims.

I just broke a rear A23, maybe i'll wait for the OC version to replace it.
(Note that the tire did not flat -- 'cross + clinchers = ALWAYS latex tubes!)

[hockeybike]

Do you need to use different hubs for the OC vs non-OC rims, or, rather, do you build a better wheel by using one sort of hub with a non-OC rim and a different hub with an OC rim?

Seems like campy went to the off-center rim a while ago with their neutron and proton wheels--did they use a different hub and flange spacing on those hubs than on the standard record/chorus ones?

[witcombusa]

Do you need to use different hubs for the OC vs non-OC rims, or, rather, do you build a better wheel by using one sort of hub with a non-OC rim and a different hub with an OC rim?



No, the point of the OC rim is to help with the problem (dish) that the new freehubs create!