Udacity

[Ahneida Ride]

Here is the link ...

http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-deals/2012-10-25-udacity-raises-15-million-as-money-pours-into-online-education/

Look... as the regulars know .... I am at least 2 bottles short of a 6 pack
But even I can figure this one out ....

40 years ago one year College tuition was between 600 dollars
and 2500 dollars.
Now a decent private college is 58,000 frns !
Who can pay that ?

Let me talk about mathematics.
The whole undergrad math program (and the first 2 years of grad school)
can go online.

you can figure between 10-15 standard courses ...
Calculus, Differential equations, Linear Algebra, Algebra, Complex
Variables, Adv. Calculus, Real Analysis ...etc .....

I mean figuring this out is NOT Radio City Music Hall Rocket Science.
You get 10 people to teach each course .... so figure 150 people.
this way the student has variety !!!! different Channels

Place it all online ... Have online study groups !
Charge a nominal fee.

This could also be done for 1-12 grades too !!!!

One problem with Math is that people have gaps ...
A cohesive program would keep gaps to a minimum.

AND if done right .... this could all be FUN !!!! Yea !!! FUN !!!!

I almost flunked outa College. By a sequence of circuitous event
( Grace of God) I survived and figure the routine out.

I finally learned to sit in class, copy everything from the black
board (many times hard to read) and then go back and spend
3-5 hours re-copying and trying to figure out what the Prof said.
HOW efficient is this ? I learned tons from talking with fellow students.

Going to class is the new horseshoe ...

[tch]

"Going to class is the new horseshoe ..." ....perhaps.
If your professor/teacher thinks that simple transfer of information is the be-all and end-all of education, then YES.

But if the teacher sees him/herself as a guide, mentor, interpreter, explainer, motivator, coach, tasked with making information usable... then NO.

I've been a college professor for 30 years. I employ online instructional materials and discussion in my classes, so I'm no Luddite. But as I've lived through the advent of online education, I've become even more convinced of the value of the person/teacher in education. More information than I could ever know is available online to my students about my field. But what is not available is instructions on what to do with it, what to think about it, how to evaluate, value, and use it. My role has moved from purveyor of information to informed guide who helps students learn where to get information, how to think about it, how to use it, and how to make it meaningful to their lives. It has become about giving them tools to empower themselves.
This student need cannot be simply papered over by additional content. It involves a deeply personal interaction between teacher and student. And it is what is increasingly being ignored by large online purveyors of content.

If you are one of the well-educated critical thinkers who simply needs information and knows how to process it, then online instruction works. If you are someone (like almost all my students) who has no critical thinking faculties...then someone, somehow has to provide guidance.

I'm not gonna defend the outrageous tuitions charged by institutions of higher education...but the process described above does cost money.

[jimcav]

However perhaps virtual interaction could allow the REAL TIME give/take that is often needed?
I went to school with a guy with an idetic memory--he was absolutely tops on certain types of tests, but as far as taking a real-life situation and integrating all those facts into critical thought and action (in his case, the field was and I assume still is, medicine--let me just say I would never recommend or allow friend or family to see him for medical care). He really needed much more than what was in the textbooks--he could easily regurgitate it, applying it was another story.


"Going to class is the new horseshoe ..." ....perhaps.
If your professor/teacher thinks that simple transfer of information is the be-all and end-all of education, then YES.

But if the teacher sees him/herself as a guide, mentor, interpreter, explainer, motivator, coach, tasked with making information usable... then NO.

I've been a college professor for 30 years. I employ online instructional materials and discussion in my classes, so I'm no Luddite. But as I've lived through the advent of online education, I've become even more convinced of the value of the person/teacher in education. More information than I could ever know is available online to my students about my field. But what is not available is instructions on what to do with it, what to think about it, how to evaluate, value, and use it. My role has moved from purveyor of information to informed guide who helps students learn where to get information, how to think about it, how to use it, and how to make it meaningful to their lives. It has become about giving them tools to empower themselves.
This student need cannot be simply papered over by additional content. It involves a deeply personal interaction between teacher and student. And it is what is increasingly being ignored by large online purveyors of content.

If you are one of the well-educated critical thinkers who simply needs information and knows how to process it, then online instruction works. If you are someone (like almost all my students) who has no critical thinking faculties...then someone, somehow has to provide guidance.

I'm not gonna defend the outrageous tuitions charged by institutions of higher education...but the process described above does cost money.

[roydyates]

As a college prof for 20+ years, I agree with Tch; the personal interaction and guidance matters a lot.

Still, particularly for concrete subjects like math, the sort of changes envisioned by Ahneida are coming. However, I have to admit I am perhaps something of a Luddite. Most subjects worth learning require time consuming mental struggle. I recommend Ahneida's technique of line by line rewriting. If you really want to be sure you understand a proof, you need to understand each and every line. When you get truly stuck, then a friend or even a prof can really help.

However, back to Tch, an education is more than just learning a bunch of facts or how to solve problems. A good college course mostly leaves you with a few key ideas and some mental links to stuff you can look up and use if you ever need to.

As for the cost, people will stop paying when they think it's not a good deal. I teach at Rutgers, a state university, and our student quality has improved over the last 4 years. In the current economy, some top students decided to forgo the debt of private school. Another example is the UC system where UC Berkeley, probably the best public univ in the US! graduates lots of students who spent the first two years at a lower cost community college.

"Going to class is the new horseshoe ..." ....perhaps your professor/teacher thinks that simple transfer of information is the be-all and end-all of education, then YES.

But if the teacher sees him/herself as a guide, mentor, interpreter, explainer, motivator, coach, tasked with making information usable... then NO.

I've been a college professor for 30 years. I employ online instructional materials and discussion in my classes, so I'm no Luddite. But as I've lived through the advent of online education, I've become even more convinced of the value of the person/teacher in education. More information than I could ever know is available online to my students about my field. But what is not available is instructions on what to do with it, what to think about it, how to evaluate, value, and use it. My role has moved from purveyor of information to informed guide who helps students learn where to get information, how to think about it, how to use it, and how to make it meaningful to their lives. It has become about giving them tools to empower themselves.
This student need cannot be simply papered over by additional content. It involves a deeply personal interaction between teacher and student. And it is what is increasingly being ignored by large online purveyors of content.

If you are one of the well-educated critical thinkers who simply needs information and knows how to process it, then online instruction works. If you are someone (like almost all my students) who has no critical thinking faculties...then someone, somehow has to provide guidance.

I'm not gonna defend the outrageous tuitions charged by institutions of higher education...but the process described above does cost money.

[Ahneida Ride]

Profs should spend time on Research and 1 on 1 tutoring in Office Hours.
or participate in on-line "chat/answer" sections.

Others can speak for themselves, but I rarely got anything out of
a live classroom lecture. I submit for your consideration that that reality
is true for most students. Classroom lectures was/is the paradigm cause ...
there was no efficient alternative till recently.

I am just too stupid to absorb the amount of material the Prof is
throwing on the blackboard. I know one guy (perhaps the smartest
person I ever personally knew) tell me the exact same thing.

I can't learn Math. I need to digest it and that takes tons of time
and hard work.

One problem with my proposal is that is per-supposes that the
student is self motivated.

[coylifut]

My college and grad school experience WAS the live interaction between teachers/mentors and fellow students that were from all over the world. I don't know how that could be captured/replaced on line.

Same thing in my current business. There's no substitute for the live meeting. The more the relationship is already established the more one can rely on remote communication, but the live personal relationship must be fostered first. Online resources enhance the experience, but can't replace it.

[Steve in SLO]

I was just talking to a colleague today who has a son at UCLA who is having a h#lluva time with some of his classes: He says the profs are brilliant but cannot teach in an understandible manner, the TAs office hours are overrun with students taking time with personal Qs, so little is gained. His fellow students are similarly confused but do not wish to study with him. In many ways, I feel for him. Online classes with excellent teachers/lecturers and some sort of group exchange would be a great way to go for many classes, esp those with a theoretical basis. There is a great market for virtual universities that is just now being explored.

[sworcester]

It's gotten outragious. I payed for my daughters BS at Baylor at $900/unit. Grandparents kicked in $20k and she got $39k in honors scholarships. It is well over that now and her Masters left her with $40k debt at a TX state school. Not math but the math is the same.

[roydyates]

You may well be in the majority. In any lecture, there are. a few well prepared students who are really following along. Those stsudents already understood the ideas beforehand. Others are just trying to find out what they need to study. That's ok too.

You're right that the key is self-motivated students.
Profs should spend time on Research and 1 on 1 tutoring in Office Hours.
or participate in on-line "chat/answer" sections.

Others can speak for themselves, but I rarely got anything out of
a live classroom lecture. I submit for your consideration that that reality
is true for most students. Classroom lectures was/is the paradigm cause ...
there was no efficient alternative till recently.

I am just too stupid to absorb the amount of material the Prof is
throwing on the blackboard. I know one guy (perhaps the smartest
person I ever personally knew) tell me the exact same thing.

I can't learn Math. I need to digest it and that takes tons of time
and hard work.

One problem with my proposal is that is per-supposes that the
student is self motivated.

[Louis]

Profs should spend time on Research and 1 on 1 tutoring in Office Hours. or participate in on-line "chat/answer" sections.

Others can speak for themselves, but I rarely got anything out of
a live classroom lecture. I submit for your consideration that that reality
is true for most students.

In my experience this could not be farther from the mark on every single statement. For both Sciences and the Humanities.

But then, my professors weren't lecturing about the importance of the gold standard or how the Federal Reserve should be abolished. :p

[1centaur]

Truly talented teachers are rare, period. The vast majority I encountered personally, via my son's education, and via anecdote from other parents are experienced presenters at best, indifferent or detrimental drones at worst. It skews SLIGHTLY better in elementary school, then progressively gets worse through high school, while in college the publish or perish imperative makes teaching skills a crap shoot of chance personality rather than fostered and demanded development (or the kids are assigned to TAs).

Online education offers the potential to deliver knowledge and skills via the genuinely talented few without the time restraints of in-person teaching or the government-boosted price of the education bureaucracies. Somewhat ironic that the non-market forces that have propped up mediocrity in pursuit of equality will blow up their monstrosity and disperse the pretenders to the winds. Great teachers will finally be recognized for their specialness when unshackled from the pretense of the presenting proletariat. Teaching impressionable minds "how to think" is fraught with societal implications and dubious outcomes but whatever it is can occur online as well. Otherwise talented people will still be needed to help and coach in person; some education is a conversation and some is not. Online education for most will be a multi-decade transition, but it is inevitable (it will sure save a lot in pension costs at the state level). What will millions of ex-would-be teachers do for a living (not that I'd prioritize make work jobs over the minds of future generations)?

[tannhauser]

Paying for new facilities, I.M. Pei- or Frank Gehry-designed super structures matters for a lot of alums, so that's what you're invested in. Architecture. Fat salaries and endowments.

Online? An further reduce the ability of the average student to read and recognize subtle changes in others face or posture to indicate encouragement or "No, that's a bad idea?"

The live social component is (was?) huge. Perhaps in a new world of binary humans online teaching will rule. I'm not against it.

[mjb266]

I think its ignorant to assume that these avenues aren't being pursued. The ed-tech world has been around for a hell of a long time and goes back to using the postal system for correspondence courses, radio and audio recordings, television, and now online education.

In each iteration, those on the outside are convinced that the new technology is going to revolutionize the existing approach to education. Problem is that the tools are just that...tools. The means by which these tools are employed govern their success/failure to a far greater degree than than anything else.

See the post by the prof above who is working as a guide within a classroom. Check out the work of Scott Freeman @ UW who is employing Team Based Approaches to reduce achievement gaps in the sciences. Pedagogy trumps technology at every turn.

As for colleges getting too expensive, what's the decrease in state contributions to public institutions over the last 40 years? I'm guessing that states have ceased investing in their universities as a cost saving measure, passing along the bill to those in the classroom. Some say it's fair, others might question how wise it is to cut investments in education.

[jblande]

Is it your belief that this 'transition' to online communication will improve or worse our education level relative to other first-world countries?

i understand that it would save money. wouldn't it be smarter to stop sending kids who are not fit for college to our institutions of higher education? how about getting jobs or trade school?

In my view, part of the problem is that many parents and students do not want to believe that they are not prepared for college. It is our democratic mindset.

[Steve in SLO]

wouldn't it be smarter to stop sending kids who are not fit for college to our institutions of higher education? how about getting jobs or trade school?

In my view, part of the problem is that many parents and students do not want to believe that they are not prepared for college. It is our capitalistic, elitist mindset.
This is good stuff (and modified by me). Trade schools and entering the labor force need to be viewed as noble and viable alternatives to 'higher' education. Certainly there are those whose career paths require a university education. For others, it begins as an experiment and ultimately ends up as an expensive storage facility for the parents.

[William]

restore the honor of the manual trades as a life worth choosing. A viable alternative to 'higher' education. Certainly there are those whose career paths require a university education. For others, it begins as an experiment and ultimately ends up as an expensive storage facility for the parents.

(I fixed it for you ;)) A great read that touches directly on this subject...

http://www.matthewbcrawford.com/Shop.jpg

http://www.matthewbcrawford.com/






William

[fa63]

In my view, part of the problem is that many parents and students do not want to believe that they are not prepared for college. It is our democratic mindset.

Trade schools and entering the labor force need to be viewed as noble and viable alternatives to 'higher' education. Certainly there are those whose career paths require a university education. For others, it begins as an experiment and ultimately ends up as an expensive storage facility for the parents.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The number of students graduating with essentially useless degrees (and a great deal of debt, to make matters worse) is astounding. Then they complain about not being able to find a high paying job...

[tch]

...now you've got me kicking in again. I don't want to pontificate, but I do feel like I'm on the front lines and have a reasonable view into this topic.

Someone in the thread said that the most important thing is prepared students. "Interested" and "committed" are the words I'd use. I don't want to go on a tear about the younger generation, but the fact is that many young people today have have never really had to work for rewards nor been held to high standards. Excuses have been easy to find, accountability has been forgotten, personal responsibility has become the province of the adults in their lives, and they have been passed along.

One of the classes I teach at my college is remedial English -- we're talking writing at the 9th - 10th grade level essentially. I will have 24 students start a class. 14-16 will pass (A-C grades). The rest....whatever. They don't come to class; when they do come, they are unprepared; they don't hand in their work; they ask for extensions and then miss that deadline; they stop responding to emails from the college; and finally they fail. It's not because the material is too hard (it's 10th grade material for God's sake!); it's that they can't be bothered to organize or discipline themselves to work on it. Some of them have genuine life crises or obstacles. But most don't, in fact. And when I ask about their past experiences in school ("what did your high school teachers do when you didn't hand in assignments???") more than one student has told me that he/she was simply given a passing grade -- usually because they had (mostly) attended class and not caused any problems.

This is not just a jab at HS teachers. They have their hands full teaching 120 kids -- many who are either passively or actively hostile -- every single day. It's really a comment on our society. Kids have not been held accountable. I can't tell you how many students have told me they've never seen a "D" or "F" before on a paper. Or how many parents -- this is college -- want to come in and argue for their kids. Or how many kids who have not done a single assignment tell me w/o irony that they ought to pass "because I came to most of the classes".

This is the rot in American education today. It's what we don't want to talk about when we talk about education reform. And finally to get back to the original topic, it's why online education will not work for a large number of students. Many of my students simply see online courses as a way to avoid having to physically come to the college. They think they will be able to "fit it in" while they're sitting at home playing video games or Facebooking. They have no idea that education is a 90/10 endeavor... and that THEIR part is the 90%.