Serotta CEO - Week 2 Comments

[rustylion]

Wow! Reading last week's comments to my introductory post was like drinking from a fire hydrant. Thanks for the thoughts, comments, suggestions and more.

There is lots for me to do here at Serotta and I have to move relatively quickly and deliberately. But, connecting with all of you is something I fully intend to make time for weekly. And, in case you were wondering, I've got a tough skin so go ahead and give me your best shot if you feel the need to! So, I will be shooting straight with you and welcome the same back.

I may not be able to respond personally to private emails (but welcome them if you feel so moved) nor directly address each and every post but I can promise that I am listening, I am carefully evaluating what is said and I will do my utmost to include your feedback, when possible, as we move forward. I have a "BIG IDEA" list that is growing from both internal and external ideas so the more I hear from you, the better.

In this week's post, let me mention a few things that I heard or feel the need to share:

1. Yes, I did cut and paste my initial intro into different forums. I also used a similar thread when I introduced myself to our dealer network. Some of you called me out on that which I guess I can understand. But, I have to say I don't think I was terribly out of line per se....I had the same thing to say and suppose I am not eloquent enough to say the same thing in different ways. If I was out of line for the members here, my actions were not meant as a slight but regardless, I have no problem apologizing!

2. My screen name is rustylion but I am not hiding behind that. My name is Bill Watkins and my background/profile can be found at www.rustylion.com. My contact info is: 518-584-8100x313 and bill.watkins@serotta.com. Or, simply reach me through this forum - I will be here.

3. As I mentioned above, I am listening concurrently to having to move fast here. I have stepped into a company that as many of you have pointed out to me, has lost its way in the market. We have never stopped making amazing bikes but the marketing, customer service and business side of Serotta has not kept up as we would have liked. So, for example, some of you mentioned that while I was supposedly listening to you, I was also killing steel production (yes, for the time being)...yep, sometimes I am going to have to move fast (a ready-fire-aim sort of execution style) and it may seem I am not listening...Silence on my part does not mean I am not paying attention...I just might be in a situation that makes it look that way.

4. Ben and I are here together in Saratoga Springs, work side-by-side and are fully engaged and working together as we deploy our plans. Ben is much more than a "consultant" here - he is the rock star of our brand, the heart and soul of Serotta...and much of American cycling. As CEO, I am here to let Ben get back to what Ben does best: design/build awesome, exciting and relevant bikes, spearheead R&D and once again drive innovation in American cycling. You will see and hear from him more and more as he is gets out from behind the desk (of running the business) and back out into the marketplace.

5. Ben and I are both straight shooters. So, neither Ben nor I are denying the reality of our current situation but both of us are here because we passionately believe in what we can do here...and are doing as I write today. Jim Collins called it the "Stockdale Paradox". You tell me there was not-so-good stuff we were doing in the past BUT there is lots of good stuff happening right now, lots of things to be excited about, lots of awewome people working with me here and while it is premature to share, there is a long-term vision, supporting strategy and brand essence developing. yes, we have a ways to go...but are far from unstable right now despite the rocky-ness of what you may have heard (or experienced) in the recent past. Sorry if this last paragraph sounded like some sort of sales pitch but I fully stepped in here with my eyes wide open but am confident the decision was a wise one and now remain passionate and energized by what lies in front of us.

There is much more that you shared (and I would like to either respond to or learn more about) but I think I will stop for today. Thanks again for connecting! I hope to see you out on the road and until then, ride hard and be well. bill

[jr59]

Again, good to see you post here.

For at least the first part of this week, just make sure you and all the people there are safe and stay that way! Life more important than bike, but not much!

[phcollard]

Glad to see you back Bill and happy to read that you are listening.

I hope we did not sound like a gang of freakazoids but most of us are passionate about the brand and American cycling in general, and it shows in the previous thread.

Keep up the good work. I would be more than happy to see Serotta high in the list of USA built frames! I have faith this will happen soon :)

[FlashUNC]

Glad to see you back Bill and happy to read that you are listening.

I hope we did not sound like a gang of freakazoids but most of us are passionate about the brand and American cycling in general, and it shows in the previous thread.

Keep up the good work. I would be more than happy to see Serotta high in the list of USA built frames! I have faith this will happen soon :)


+1. next time I'm in the market for a custom frame, I'd like for Serotta to be one of the companies I consider.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . of good will here. All you have to do is turn on the spigot.

This forum is all about sharing enthusiasm. I wish a dozen company CEO's would do this . . .

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

. . . of good will here. All you have to do is turn on the spigot.

This forum is all about sharing enthusiasm. I wish a dozen company CEO's would do this . . .

BBD

Amen !

[Smiley]

Hey Rusty Lion aka Bill Watkins, from the movie "Field of Dreams" Build it and They shall come :banana:

Best of Luck

[DRZRM]

I have to say, it's been a while since a new Legend has been anywhere on my potential list. I'm not "sold" just yet, but I'm weighing it against a couple other ti frames. It's good to see some sensible decisions being made there! Once again, good to have you aboard Bill.

[dd74]

Already sent Bill an email regarding Serotta either building or retrofitting their Coeur d'Acier/Colorado to except Campagnolo EPS. To me, that would be the perfect bicycle.

[dekindy]

I see the Pronto and Fondo SG models were announced today. I intend to watch the News daily as change is coming fast at Serotta. Saw where Serotta was down to a handful of employees and have been able to rehire most and some more. Did not know things were that bad at Serotta but glad that reinvestment in human capital is possible as part of the turnaround.

[tannhauser]

Bio / riding history / work history / cycling affiliation and other background would be appreciated.

[PaMtbRider]

Bio / riding history / work history / cycling affiliation and other background would be appreciated.

Go to the link he provided www.rustylion.com
You should find the answers to all your questions there.

[tannhauser]

Go to the link he provided www.rustylion.com
You should find the answers to all your questions there.

Ah good thanks.

[Cat3roadracer]

The website has improved quite a bit. Best of luck to you and your team, we all wish you new found success.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Bio / riding history / work history / cycling affiliation and other background would be appreciated.

"William Watkins, 58, a longtime Serotta Competition Bicycles customer and road racing expert who won the 2011 USA Cycling Masters Road National Criterium Championship on a Serotta bike, has been named chief executive officer of the company now called simply Serotta.

He was on the U.S. Olympic development and national teams from 1976 through 1984, when he won numerous national races and represented the United States in international cycling events.

In addition to being a longtime cycling competitor, Watkins is also an experienced businessman. Bradway Capital Chairman Brian K. Case said Watkins founded a company, The Marena Group, that makes medical devices in the United States. The company has become very successful, he said, selling its products in 72 countries and becoming a leader in a market dominated by Asian and Latin American companies.

Watkins, a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, has moved to Saratoga Springs."

Here's the rest of the story:

http://www.dailygazette.net/Standard/ShowStoryTemplate.asp?Path=SCH/2012/10/27&ID=Ar00800&Section=Business

I've worked with Coleman and he is a good, reliable reporter.

Here's the Serotta press release:

http://serotta.com/production-begins-on-first-of-2-new-market-competitive-models/

BBD

[tannhauser]

"William Watkins, 58, a longtime Serotta Competition Bicycles customer and road racing expert who won the 2011 USA Cycling Masters Road National Criterium Championship on a Serotta bike, has been named chief executive officer of the company now called simply Serotta.

He was on the U.S. Olympic development and national teams from 1976 through 1984, when he won numerous national races and represented the United States in international cycling events.

In addition to being a longtime cycling competitor, Watkins is also an experienced businessman. Bradway Capital Chairman Brian K. Case said Watkins founded a company, The Marena Group, that makes medical devices in the United States. The company has become very successful, he said, selling its products in 72 countries and becoming a leader in a market dominated by Asian and Latin American companies.

Watkins, a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, has moved to Saratoga Springs."

Here's the rest of the story:

http://www.dailygazette.net/Standard/ShowStoryTemplate.asp?Path=SCH/2012/10/27&ID=Ar00800&Section=Business

I've worked with Coleman and he is a good, reliable reporter.

Here's the Serotta press release:

http://serotta.com/production-begins-on-first-of-2-new-market-competitive-models/

BBD

This ticks all the right boxes for me. I was pessimistic when Bradway came on board but they seemed to have got the right guy on board.

But Bill, please don't tell us you won the nats crit champs on the juice. I don't think we could take any more of that news.

[rugbysecondrow]

Bio / riding history / work history / cycling affiliation and other background would be appreciated.

I dont get why this is important for us here. Serotta is not perfect but it seems people ask more of them than they would other private companies.

[tannhauser]

I dont get why this is important for us here. Serotta is not perfect but it seems people ask more of them than they would other private companies.

Because I'm curious. Person's background and history make the man makes the company. Surely you can understand that, right?

What I do not get is someone politely asking a person's background when it's widely available and freely shared, to be questioned by you.

I'm out. Going to read Bill's blog and other things.

Fight amongst yourselves people.

[Louis]

carping [kahr-ping]

adjective - characterized by fussy or petulant faultfinding; querulous: carping criticism

[rugbysecondrow]

Bio / riding history / work history / cycling affiliation and other background would be appreciated.

Because I'm curious. Person's background and history make the man makes the company. Surely you can understand that, right?

What I do not get is someone politely asking a person's background when it's widely available and freely shared, to be questioned by you.

A) it wasn't polite.

B) nobody owes you their resume to satisfy your curiosity.

C). Folks here act entitled to way more info about Serotta then I think they are truly entitled to. I am glad the CEO posted here, but he owes you and us none of that.

[Cat3roadracer]

So, what's the background and personal details of the leaders of Moots, Seven, IF, and whoever else. Do we care? Not me personally, I have a steel Serotta because it rides great. I have a Ti Moots because it rides great too.

Give it a rest. If you like the new Serotta offerings, consider one. If you don't, move on quietly.

[93legendti]

I'm excited to hear about the new models. I am also tempted by a custom Legend to match my Ottrott ST. Despite my forum name, I've never had a Legend built for me...

I've exchanged several emails with Bill on an idea/proposition I have and I found him to be responsive and friendly.

[rwsaunders]

I checked out the new site as well...simplifying the product mix can't hurt and the website was easy to navigate and to the point. It won't be easy turning things around, but that's why they call it work. Offering a US made carbon classic with a decent build for under $6K will hopefully help generate strong supporters.

http://serotta.com/bicycles/meivici-sg

[tannhauser]

A) it wasn't polite.

B) nobody owes you their resume to satisfy your curiosity.

C). Folks here act entitled to way more info about Serotta then I think they are truly entitled to. I am glad the CEO posted here, but he owes you and us none of that.

Oh thanks for your input. Remember when i tried to diffuse an issue you had with Earl and you wanted to hunt him down? No?

Ok, you're on your own aggro-boy. You should've been banned a long time ago for the threats you made then and the implicit threats you continue to make. Always thinking like your on the pitch.

Now let me read something of quality.

[rugbysecondrow]

Oh thanks for your input. Remember when i tried to diffuse an issue you had with Earl and you wanted to hunt him down? No?

Ok, you're on your own aggro-boy. You should've been banned a long time ago for the threats you made then and the implicit threats you continue to make. Always thinking like your on the pitch.

Now let me read something of quality.

It sounds like you have a personal issue with me, be polite and take it offline. PM me if you feel it is necessary.

[tannhauser]

It sounds like you have a personal issue with me, be polite and take it offline. PM me if you feel it is necessary.

Naw. I just know you like to threaten people.

"Be polite". That's rich coming from you. Do. Not. PM. Me.

I will not respond and don't care for what you have to say.

[tannhauser]

So, what's the background and personal details of the leaders of Moots, Seven, IF, and whoever else. Do we care? Not me personally, I have a steel Serotta because it rides great. I have a Ti Moots because it rides great too.

Give it a rest. If you like the new Serotta offerings, consider one. If you don't, move on quietly.


Give it a rest yourself.

This board used to be so good.

[PaMtbRider]

So is everyone stuck inside because of the storm? Lighten up folks. A new CEO takes over a company many people are very passionate about. I think it is perfectly normal to want to know his background.

[pdmtong]

So, what's the background and personal details of the leaders of Moots, Seven, IF, and whoever else. Do we care?

The background of the leaders of the companies you mentioned are known because they were offered by those same leaders to the folks who follow those companies.

whether a company/leader wishes to provide this inforrmation is up to them, but I see no issue in our asking - especially given this forums' passion for the brand and the known struggles the company has had and is currently facing.

[weaponsgrade]

my thoughts: have a lower priced entry model, make it overseas if you have to. I don't think having an overseas model necessarily dilutes the brand. See ibis, and parlee. Keep the upper end models in the US. Sponsor a small team to help bring the brand back as a maker of race bikes. Organize serotta gran fondo. Don't charge ridiculous amounts for restoration decals.

[Jack Brunk]

would be to engage the forum on a topic by topic basis if you truely do care about what is being written and discussed here.

If your going to come along along once a week or so and kinda do a repeat of stuff that you can't get to because like a lot of us CEO's who are really busy trying to grow their own businesses, then your probably better off not posting and just build the business offline.

Just my opinon.

[tannhauser]

99494949

[bfd]

my thoughts: have a lower priced entry model, make it overseas if you have to. I don't think having an overseas model necessarily dilutes the brand. See ibis, and parlee. Keep the upper end models in the US. Sponsor a small team to help bring the brand back as a maker of race bikes. Organize serotta gran fondo. Don't charge ridiculous amounts for restoration decals.

Better yet, lower your prices! Why does a ti legend have a msrp of $6K when a comparable moots, seven, IF, firefly, Holland, litespeed or many other ti frames would be "just as good" at $2K to $3k less?

Similarly, the carbon Serotta - Mevici (sp?) list for over $8K?! Really? A comparable Crumpton, Parlee, Calfee - all Made in America - cost between $5-6K or anywhere from $2K to 3k less.

What does a Serotta offer that these other companies don't? If you can't answer that, then either lower your prices or be happy with the current level of sales you have now....Good Luck!

[tuxbailey]

Per usual I'm not sure what Jack is talking about.

Back to real content.

I don't think Jack was talking about you.

His post was a suggestion to Bill. If the new CEO wants to post on a weekly basis only as a formality, then he should save the effort and redirect the time and energy toward the task at hand (e.g. building the business.)

[DRZRM]

my thoughts: have a lower priced entry model, make it overseas if you have to. I don't think having an overseas model necessarily dilutes the brand. See ibis, and parlee. Keep the upper end models in the US. Sponsor a small team to help bring the brand back as a maker of race bikes. Organize serotta gran fondo. Don't charge ridiculous amounts for restoration decals.

They seem to be on it, at least the first part. I believe that $4,300 is fully built.

http://serotta.com/production-begins-on-first-of-2-new-market-competitive-models/

Production Begins on First of 2 New Market-Competitive Models
Posted by Serotta on Oct 29, 2012 in News
Company Reaffirms Commitment to American Manufacturing

SARATOGA SPRINGS, N.Y. (October 29, 2012)– Serotta, one of the world’s premier handcrafted performance bicycle manufacturers, today began building the first of two new models designed specifically to compete with bikes churned out by Asian assembly lines.

“One of the hot campaign topics this year is the migration of manufacturing jobs to Asia and the desire to return manufacturing to America ,” said company CEO Bill Watkins. “We’ve resisted the trend toward production in Asia, which is where nearly all bikes are made these days. Today we began production on the first of two new bike models designed to compete head-on with Asian imports.”

The company’s American craftsmen have begun producing the Fondo SG, a titanium road bike with a suggested retail price of $4,295. Next month Serotta will launch production of the Pronto SG, a titanium road race bike, which also will sell for $4,295.

Serotta could have sourced these lower-end bikes from Asia. “But we have decided to manufacture these market-competitive bikes in our Saratoga Springs factory,” Watkins said. “This keeps jobs in Saratoga Springs and will bring cyclists an excellent, Serotta-level bike at a very competitive price – all with American craftsmanship and ingenuity.”

Watkins noted that this is not a “buy American” campaign. “We don’t wave the American flag thinking that consumers owe us their orders,” he explained. “We studied the market and listened to the consumer. Then we – founder Ben Serotta, Patrick O’Farrell, our operations director, and the entire production team – hunkered down and got our brains and hands in motion to bring a competitively priced bike to market. We see it as a well-made bike that will meet consumer demand – and that just happens to be built here and is keeping jobs in the USA.”

[fourflys]

They seem to be on it, at least the first part. I believe that $4,300 is fully built.



that's the real question is if that is for a complete bike or not... and I'd be interested if the tubes are us or "other"? Not saying there is anything wrong with "other", but just curious...

[nm87710]

Mods:

Please move this thread to the classified section.

Free advertising and brand development delivered by industry manufacturers, suppliers and retailers is not what why I participate on this forum. To me this is nothing more than a classified ad.

Serotta losts it's chance to do "free" advertising on their forum when they opted to not support it.

[Louis]

Mods:

Please move this thread to the classified section.

Free advertising and brand development delivered by industry manufacturers, suppliers and retailers is not what why I participate on this forum. To me this is nothing more than a classified ad.

Serotta losts it's chance to do "free" advertising on their forum when they opted to not support it.


Please see my post here. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1233102&postcount=19)

[jpw]

When will the Fondo and Pronto models be up on the Serotta website please?

[phcollard]

They seem to be on it, at least the first part. I believe that $4,300 is fully built.

http://serotta.com/production-begins-on-first-of-2-new-market-competitive-models/

I believe so too. The announcement says road bike not road frame. If that's the case that's an awesome step in the right direction methinks. I can't wait to see the build/pictures.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Mods:

Please move this thread to the classified section.

Free advertising and brand development delivered by industry manufacturers, suppliers and retailers is not what why I participate on this forum. To me this is nothing more than a classified ad.

Serotta losts it's chance to do "free" advertising on their forum when they opted to not support it.

. . . to ignore this or any thread--or not.

Given the high interest by forum members in Serotta's fate and their price points--evidenced by the large number of replies to any thread involving their business--it seems when a new CEO comes on board and seeks to address those comments from members, then it's certainly applicable here as a news item. The tone I'm hearing is "Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Here's what we're doing to address them."

Given Serotta's past lack of official participation here, I for one welcome it if the CEO regularly walks in the door for a chat and gives indications he really is listening to member comments. So far, that seems to be what Watkins is doing.

If CEO's of any bike company want to also regularly engage members, I'd be all for that, too. In fact, that's pretty much what any individual builder IS doing when they participate here and talk about bikes. That's what the "Builder's Showcase" is all about. If the CEO's of IF, Parlee, or even Specialized walked in and started participating, would you want to hear what they have to say and have the opportunity to give them feedback or ask questions directly? As long as they are not actively saying "Please buy one of our bikes" I'm certainly willing as a forum member to put up with any implied promotion simply from their being here in exchange for the opportunity to engage personally with them.

BBD

[FlashUNC]

If CEO's of any bike company want to also regularly engage members, I'd be all for that, too. In fact, that's pretty much what any individual builder IS doing when they participate here and talk about bikes. That's what the "Builder's Showcase" is all about. If the CEO's of IF, Parlee, or even Specialized walked in and started participating, would you want to hear what they have to say and have the opportunity to give them feedback or ask questions directly? As long as they are not actively saying "Please buy one of our bikes" I'm certainly willing as a forum member to put up with any implied promotion simply from their being here in exchange for the opportunity to engage personally with them.

BBD

+1. I find this place far more interesting when the "heads" of respective bike companies show up and interact with inmates in this particular asylum. Whether that's Bill at Serotta, or Eric at Winter Bikes, or Nick at Crumpton or Dave Kirk or Richard Sachs or Kirk Pacenti.

I don't think Mike Sinyard will be stopping by this corner of the Internet anytime soon, but I'd imagine we'd all pepper him with the same amount of questions.

I don't get the mindset of wanting to drive these kinds of folks away.

[1centaur]

Agree with BBD on the interest in CEO thoughts. Every week with nothing much to say and it would seem like advertising, but as long as there's the promise of specific thought and reaction to THIS forum's members it's good in this section.

In the suggestion column: bikes for fun or sport are a link to youth. The key demo for Serotta is guys 40-55 with the money to buy and the taste to discriminate, so I'll ignore the ladies and the younger and older guys here for the moment. When guys buy upper-end road bikes they're looking for some combination of speed, power, exercise, freedom, exploration (physical and mental) and achievement, all of which are more associated with youth than old age. Very, very few buyers are looking for objects of intellectually admirable mechanical aptitude or crusty symbols of a better time. That is why I think Serotta would benefit from an entry level bike and a grass roots program to get young influencers on them. If shop rats ride Serotta's low end because they have a sense it's a quality frame from a cool old school marque at a good price point, but think some day they can get an upper end frame, then the older guys who can afford the better frames start to see some reanimation of youthful enthusiasm for the brand, detaching it from the dentist stigma. IF has an attachment to youth, at least around these native parts. Moots seems to attract attention across age groups, in part by having long had reasonable price points for a lusted after brand. The brands that sponsor GC racers has an attachment to youth built in. Serotta needs that attachment to younger riders to reinvigorate the brand.

[rustylion]

You can see/read lots about me at www.rustylion.com.

thanks and be well,
bill
518-584-8100x313
bill.watkins@serotta.com

Bio / riding history / work history / cycling affiliation and other background would be appreciated.

[spiderman]

Good on you bill...
When shrapnel is flying
From a message of good will
Much of which is "friendly fire"
It's not any less lethal!
Thanks for giving us another chance!
Can't wait to see how you decide to
Mix in with the ebb and flow
Of life in the forum and across the hall!
There's a lot to unwind
To go forward
But it's worth doing
And you'll be blessed...

[rustylion]

What you wrote makes perfect sense and I can understand that none of you want manufacturers to hang out and promote our brands. That is not my style as a person; I am pretty low-key and like to let my actions speak for themselves.

Why then am I posting lots of Serotta-related stuff?

Because of two reasons: 1) there are lots of questions out there and tons of misinformation. All I am trying to do is listen to what the community might want to know and then offer a response from my side. 2) I sense we have been distant from the cycling community for too long. A bit sad because we were an intimate part of American Cycling's roots. I want to reengage us and therefore, am actively listening.

But, much more important to the above, ie., the professional side of my life, I am an avid cycling enthusiast and currently retired competitor. Cycling as been a huge part of my life since 1974 and will continue to be so. I want to plug in here personally - as time permits - simly as bill (aka rustylion) who is a guy who passionately loves to ride/race his bike and hang out with others who love the sport just the same.

Thanks and be well.
bill


would be to engage the forum on a topic by topic basis if you truely do care about what is being written and discussed here.

If your going to come along along once a week or so and kinda do a repeat of stuff that you can't get to because like a lot of us CEO's who are really busy trying to grow their own businesses, then your probably better off not posting and just build the business offline.

Just my opinon.

[rustylion]

Some time in the future, I will tell the story how during my last comeback (2009-2011) USADA (and WADA) basically forced me to stop several of my longtime prescription medications because they were banned substances. To contine taking them, I would have risked a negative test result and the consequences. My doctors tried to work with them to get me an exception since none of these medications were performance-enhancing by any stretch...especially at age 58. So, I competed during that period without them.

I fully support the WADA's efforts but was an example of how guys like me can fall through a crack inside a rigid system.

Oh well, that's the way it goes sometimes,
bill

This ticks all the right boxes for me. I was pessimistic when Bradway came on board but they seemed to have got the right guy on board.

But Bill, please don't tell us you won the nats crit champs on the juice. I don't think we could take any more of that news.

[rustylion]

Sorry that I do not know this issue. Who can share with me the background?

thanks,
bill



my thoughts: have a lower priced entry model, make it overseas if you have to. I don't think having an overseas model necessarily dilutes the brand. See ibis, and parlee. Keep the upper end models in the US. Sponsor a small team to help bring the brand back as a maker of race bikes. Organize serotta gran fondo. Don't charge ridiculous amounts for restoration decals.

[buldogge]

Hey Bill... In the past the Serotta factory was willing to provide replacement decals to current Serotta owners to freshen their bikes, do re-paints, etc. In the recent past (last year?) they decided that they would no longer sell decal sets...for fear of copies, perhaps? (silly)

Anyway...there are a lot of great older Serottas out there, with a lot of devoted owners who would love to freshen their bikes with little to know hassle AND without having to rely on secondary sources to replicate the decals.

Very recently it was announced that the factory would provide "surface-type" stickers to owners of unpainted (ie bare Ti) bikes.

-Mark in St. Louis

Sorry that I do not know this issue. Who can share with me the background?

thanks,
bill

[BumbleBeeDave]

Time to put up or shut up. :rolleyes:

How many times have I seen on this board that Serotta had no direct participation? How many people have I read complaining that nobody at Serotta seemed to be listening? :crap:

Well, you got your wish. The*One*Who*Can*Make*A*Difference is here and he is listening to you.

Help him.

Do the same for any other bike company people who stop in from IF, Seven, whoever . . .

It's your chance to make a difference!

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

If Rusty Lion is abusing the Paceline ....

Well an argument could be made that a host of other builders are too.
And other long time members including myself.

Before the unfortunate Bifurcation, tons of leading builders populate the place.
I'd love to see that again.

[e-RICHIE]

Maybe offer to give, rent, loan, or sell the board back to the brand. In the past eight years it could have been ground zero for Serotta Cycles and, for some unexplainable reason, it wasn't. This place wasn't just underutilized, it was ignored. I think Bill and the company should have a chance to reconcile that atmo. There could be no downside to this.




Time to put up or shut up. :rolleyes:

How many times have I seen on this board that Serotta had no direct participation? How many people have I read complaining that nobody at Serotta seemed to be listening? :crap:

Well, you got your wish. The*One*Who*Can*Make*A*Difference is here and he is listening to you.

Help him.

Do the same for any other bike company people who stop in from IF, Seven, whoever . . .

It's your chance to make a difference!

BBD

[DRZRM]

First, the SG Pronto and SG Fondo will be complete titanium bikes starting at $4295, with what Bill described in a PM as a kick-ass build kit. I think that not outsources these bikes to Asia represents an important message from Serotta to buyers and to their employees. Kudos!! Seems like this should address a lot of complaints coming out of here.

It also seems to me that custom steel is still available on the site, the Colorado is still on the SE part of the site here (http://serotta.com/bicycles/colorado-se/), they are just not doing a stock size discount bike. The complaints here make it sound like they have totally cut out steel.

Finally, as to Decals, there was a huge blowup around here about a year ago when Serotta stopped shipping stickers directly to bike owners. They claimed that it was to address the existence of counterfeit frames on ebay, but most felt it was just part of an obvious paring down of customer service which included the removal of a phone number from the website, and the refusal to share information on frames based on serial numbers (Serotta had previously been willing to do this, and it was helpful in supporting the used market, especially when custom frames were being sold).

To some extent the decal hubub was made worse because it seemed that Serotta would only supply decals if they did the repaint, and for many folks around here, the prices for a paint job were unrealistically expensive (IIRC they were quoting more than a Joe Bell repaint). Further, the downgrade in customer service meant it was hard to get good/timely/any information on turnaround and support. This was in part addressed by an eventual announcement that decals would still go to Serotta authorized repainters (though it took quite a while for that information to come out, and there were a ton of angry accusations swirling around here and V-salon that did Serotta no favors), and according to a post above, a recent change that surface decals (for ti) would be available direct to owners again.

That said, for bare ti frames or for owners who just want to powdercoat a beat up frame and replace stickers under clearcoat, it seemed to me and to many others that you guys should just put a price on the sticker packages and sell them directly to owners with a legit serial number. While I don't think there are any convincing fake Serotta frames on ebay, there are certainly fake stickers taking away from your profits.

Hope that is a reasonable description, I'm sure folks will chime in if any of my details are wrong.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Maybe offer to give, rent, loan, or sell the board back to the brand. In the past eight years it could have been ground zero for Serotta Cycles and, for some unexplainable reason, it wasn't. This place wasn't just underutilized, it was ignored. I think Bill and the company should have a chance to reconcile that atmo. There could be no downside to this.

. . . any builder is still free to access the Paceline and engage owners at any time, assuming they do so in a constructive manner that does not involve blatant self-promotion. Been that way since we tacked the new sign up on the door.

While I cannot speak for the other mods, I personally welcome constructive engagement from any bike maker. There's no need for us to give, sell, or rent the board back to Serotta.

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

. . . any builder is still free to access the Paceline and engage owners at any time, assuming they do so in a constructive manner that does not involve blatant self-promotion. Been that way since we tacked the new sign up on the door.

While I cannot speak for the other mods, I personally welcome constructive engagement from any bike maker. There's no need for us to give, sell, or rent the board back to Serotta.

BBD
I only suggested it because the board was handed over (given, signed over, sold, whatever...) with the entire existing database and community that grew under the Serotta brand umbrella. It's not as if The Paceline Forum started as a seed. Many folks still think of it as the Serotta Forum. Anyway, my input is genuine. If it's a bad idea it's only my second one for the day atmo.

[oldpotatoe]

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/121019-TT-Kits.pdf

'Tried and True?

2 sram and 2 shimano choices(actually 1.2..Di2 on one frame only)??

That's it?

No DA? No 5700(a really good group)?

No Campagnolo of any kind?

[BumbleBeeDave]

I only suggested it because the board was handed over (given, signed over, sold, whatever...) with the entire existing database and community that grew under the Serotta brand umbrella. It's not as if The Paceline Forum started as a seed. Many folks still think of it as the Serotta Forum. Anyway, my input is genuine. If it's a bad idea it's only my second one for the day atmo.

I've already had at least half a dozen bad ideas today! :rolleyes: ;)

Rustylion seems to be doing exactly what's needed to reach the community that grew up here under Serotta brand sponsorship.

If we are to remain impartial and a forum where any brand or builder is welcome to participate under the same rules, then we need to refrain from any official brand sponsorship like the kind that existed under Serotta.

I imagine if the V-Salon suddenly became the "V-Salon Presented by Gaulzetti Cycles" or the "ATMO Salon" then there might be some effect on participation from other brands. :p

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

Maybe offer to give, rent, loan, or sell the board back to the brand. In the past eight years it could have been ground zero for Serotta Cycles and, for some unexplainable reason, it wasn't. This place wasn't just underutilized, it was ignored. I think Bill and the company should have a chance to reconcile that atmo. There could be no downside to this.

Was this ever a Serotta board? It started out as a place with ads, and then
Kahuna took it over and then Serotta funded it for awhile.

It matured simply because people hung out on a forum with the name
"Serotta" on it. Cause, at the time, Serotta had name recognition, not
because any vast majority of members had a strong penchant for Serotta.

Serotta active participation thru the years has been minimal.
and it's few attempts to police here have proved unsatisfactory at best.
Hey for years... Pete did all the heavy lifting.

The Paceline is simply returning the Phorum back to it's genesis,
a place where cyclists can hang out, trade thoughts, without the
censorship of any one particular builder or manufacturer.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

[e-RICHIE]

The Paceline is simply returning the Phorum back to it's genesis,
a place where cyclists can hang out, trade thoughts, without the
censorship of any one particular builder or manufacturer.

This place will always be the Phorum/Gary's/Kahuna's in my eyes atmo!

[Tom]

...No Campagnolo of any kind?

I noticed that, too, and I'll probably get crabbed at for saying it but I have Chorus components on both the bikes and my favoritest wheels are Campagnolo and they don't make it easy for me to get parts when I need them. There's a couple great places to go on the web but if I want to be any kind of honorable with my favorite bike shop and they need to use QBP it's just about insane. If I'm going to ask them to do the work I'm not walking in with a box marked Velomine. This year on one bike both shifters needed a complete gut and rebuild and it was going to be more than six weeks if all the parts came from QBP... two years ago my rear Neutron tangled with a car and all that was left was the hub, it took all summer to get the correct spokes. And don't get me started on new Chorus rings.

Serotta doesn't need to take on that headache with all the others just at this moment, I'm sure.

[oldpotatoe]

I noticed that, too, and I'll probably get crabbed at for saying it but I have Chorus components on both the bikes and my favoritest wheels are Campagnolo and they don't make it easy for me to get parts when I need them. There's a couple great places to go on the web but if I want to be any kind of honorable with my favorite bike shop and they need to use QBP it's just about insane. If I'm going to ask them to do the work I'm not walking in with a box marked Velomine. This year on one bike both shifters needed a complete gut and rebuild and it was going to be more than six weeks if all the parts came from QBP... two years ago my rear Neutron tangled with a car and all that was left was the hub, it took all summer to get the correct spokes. And don't get me started on new Chorus rings.

Serotta doesn't need to take on that headache with all the others just at this moment, I'm sure.

Just cuz yer LBS has a headache doesn't mean it's a headache to get what you need. There are many Campagnolo distributors in the US...not just QBP.

OEM is a much different ballgame than Campagnolo parts via one distributor.

6 weeks for parts? All summer for spokes? They could have called Campagnolo NA, like I just did and got a very obscure part from Campagnolo, ITALY, in about a week.

Next time you need lever OVH-see somebody that 'qui si parla Campagnolo', a Campagnolo ProShop, like me, who has all the small bits for ERGO levers, hubs, HS, brakes, etc.

-methinks 'your' LBS is not and if they are, maybe shouldn't be.

[Keith A]

This place will always be the Phorum/Gary's/Kahuna's in my eyes atmo!And it's too bad that he doesn't participate on the forum any longer. I've been here since he started this way back when, along with the Calfee discussion group too.

[bicycletricycle]

sad about the steel.

wonder why that makes sense?

[AngryScientist]

sad about the steel.

wonder why that makes sense?

i agree. my steel serotta is one of my favorite bikes, it's just one of those bikes that hits all the right notes IMO.

[Nooch]

... man i want a pronto...

[Ahneida Ride]

This place will always be the Phorum/Gary's/Kahuna's in my eyes atmo!

Yea ... the good ole days. I agree ...

Interesting enuf .... There was also a fair amount of Serotta bashing as
I recall. This is precisely why I purchased a Serotta. Cause I figured that
any company that allowed that much freedom of expression was not
concerned about the quality of it's product. They knew it was exemplary.

In those nascent days, the forums of other manufacture were heavily
moderated and I found way too many brown noses. Here/ATH one could
actually express an opinion. This Laissez-faire attitude was a prime contributor
to the success of the BIG KAHUNA.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that must have been a LONG time ago . . . I'll bet you didn't even have 50,000 posts yet in those years! :)

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

. . . that must have been a LONG time ago . . . I'll bet you didn't even have 50,000 posts yet in those years! :)
BBD

In those days, my son, we hand carved Brontosaurus Bones to make tubes.
We carefully carved out the interior marrow to thin the walls.
We called these tubes 5111111 BC.

Tyrannosauruses Rich, Benhur RockStar and Kelly Bedrock were the only
game in town.

But alas, these frames were useless as the wheel had not been invented yet.

But as I recall, there was a Giant pushing women specific custom geometry.

[tannhauser]

You can see/read lots about me at www.rustylion.com.

thanks and be well,
bill
518-584-8100x313
bill.watkins@serotta.com

Like I said before the way you're handling the various silly comments and your background bode well for Serotta.

And, I'd like to add, you've already taken way more advantage of this board than Ben ever did. Do these critical newbs know this used to be the Serotta Forum and, as such, Bill can be given a legacy pass? Honestly.

Alright thanks for the response -- I've read some of your blog already and like it.

edit: written before reading subsequent replies.

[dd74]

i agree. my steel serotta is one of my favorite bikes, it's just one of those bikes that hits all the right notes IMO.
+1. Not to mention Serotta offers no option for EPS or Di2 for their steel frames. A big void there as any number of small builders all the way up to Cinelli, Casati and IF, offer internal routing for electronic group sets.

I can't imagine people who ride steel frames only want mechanical groups for some luddite reason or the other.

[DRZRM]

If the only steel frame currently available on the Serotta website is the fully custom Colorado, why are you assuming they would not "customize" it to accept EPS or Di2? Did the site state that, or is this based on assumptions.

+1. Not to mention Serotta offers no option for EPS or Di2 for their steel frames. A big void there as any number of small builders all the way up to Cinelli, Casati and IF, offer internal routing for electronic group sets.

I can't imagine people who ride steel frames only want mechanical groups for some luddite reason or the other.

[jpw]

I only suggested it because the board was handed over (given, signed over, sold, whatever...) with the entire existing database and community that grew under the Serotta brand umbrella. It's not as if The Paceline Forum started as a seed. Many folks still think of it as the Serotta Forum. Anyway, my input is genuine. If it's a bad idea it's only my second one for the day atmo.

To me it's still the Serotta forum. I never think 'Paceline'.

[jpw]

Was this ever a Serotta board?

Serotta threatened to close it down often enough.

[jpw]

In those days, my son, we hand carved Brontosaurus Bones to make tubes.
We carefully carved out the interior marrow to thin the walls.
We called these tubes 5111111 BC.

Tyrannosauruses Rich, Benhur RockStar and Kelly Bedrock were the only
game in town.

But alas, these frames were useless as the wheel had not been invented yet.

But as I recall, there was a Giant pushing women specific custom geometry.

So finally we have it, the inventor of the wheel.

[dd74]

If the only steel frame currently available on the Serotta website is the fully custom Colorado, why are you assuming they would not "customize" it to accept EPS or Di2? Did the site state that, or is this based on assumptions.
I'm not assuming. Serotta stated so directly to me.

[Ahneida Ride]

Serotta threatened to close it down often enough.

Often ? I respectably disagree. But they did shut it down at least once.

That's when Sheriff Pete started to baby sit us. :cool: :help:

Me ? I'll just take the frns and run to Costa Rica .... :eek: :banana:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[jpw]

Often ? I respectably disagree. But they did shut it down at least once.

That's when Sheriff Pete started to baby sit us. :cool: :help:

Me ? I'll just take the frns and run to Costa Rica .... :eek: :banana:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It seemed that way at the time :-)

[rpm]

Kudos to Serotta for the new Pronto and Fondo SGs at $4,300. I hope you're able to equip them with the tried and true groups, without resorting to substituting some cheapie no-name parts. Sometime soon, I'd like to some comparable steel models for a few hundred dollars cheaper. I've spent more time lately on my CDA than on my nice ti bike. There's something really great about the ride.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . without resorting to substituting some cheapie no-name parts.

. . . like those Campy-noggle-oh parts? :rolleyes:

BBD

[Jason E]

Bill,

I have a very strong opinion that aside from customer service items like decal replacement, "why won't you answer the emails" and 'help me with my geometry' inquires, you should not be taking too much from the forum. YOU and BEN need to have a vision, not a bike by committee. Yes, the Paceline will tell you a lot of what was wrong, and pat you on the back for good moves, but without a leader with vision, your building in circles..

Sasha, RS, Zank, Gary... They know what they want and where they want to build. If you want to do that in the volume bandwidth you want to build, then you need to produce.

I do not mean that as anything other than motivation. You wade too deep here asking rather then swinging for the fences and I think it is 'challenging' for the brand.

Also ('cause opinions are like a*****es) I would question marketing your bike on your website as "Market Competitive". It doesn't sound very awesome. Say it with me in an excited tone, "Market Competitive!" How about just, "Here is the new Serotta", or "back to our roots". Market competitive is a term for this board, but not for people that dont know you.

C'mon, kick ass. I want you guys to kill it.

Ok, thanks,

Jason

[dyerwolf]

Nice to see you posting Bill. I look forward to reading from your perspective and congrats on the appointment as CEO.

[rustylion]

Let me say first that I don't always want to be on the forum talking about Serotta. I am a pasionate cycling enthusiast (rider, competitor) and want to enjoy the forum as just another member!!

However, I also want to make sure that the community feels like I am not ignoring your questions and comments. I have invited a dialogue and don't want it to be only 1-way.

Recently many of you asked the question: why did I take us out of steel bikes last month?

Pretty simple.

Because we could not bring a competitive price to the marketplace amidst competitors whom we respect and think are making good, solid bikes. You may or may not have a positive opinion about Serotta but I can tell you that I am not a guy that purposely likes to embarrass himself or the companies I work for. CEOing a company that has a 50% premium on its product without good reason does not seem to speak well about us.

Steel was our beginning back in the 70's, remains our passion and is Ben's favorite material to work with. But, for whatever reason - and we have not had the time to drill into the detail - we were just not making a steel bike at a competitive cost which could be for lots of reasons....Rather than continue to pretend like this was okay while we tried to figure it out - and, in turn, ignore the marketplace realities that all of you already know better than I do - I decided to kill the product line...

...for now. Would I want to see if we can deliver a Colorado to the market at a good price in the future? You bet. Can I (and the company) focus on that right now? No. Broken hearts and lots of disagreement internally and probably, out there, externally? Yep.

Like I said, I am trying to balance the CEO hat with the Bill the cyclist hat so have patience with me as I speak in here wearing the business hat. It is not meant to be an "advertisement" at all...just showing respect to fellow professionals with comments/questions/suggestions. There is another big part to my life and I would like to believe I will be welcomed and can be part of this community as Bill the rider/competitor, too.

Thanks for asking the question and listening to my response. See you out on the roads,
bill



sad about the steel.

wonder why that makes sense?

[rustylion]

Thanks, Jason.
bill


Bill,

I have a very strong opinion that aside from customer service items like decal replacement, "why won't you answer the emails" and 'help me with my geometry' inquires, you should not be taking too much from the forum. YOU and BEN need to have a vision, not a bike by committee. Yes, the Paceline will tell you a lot of what was wrong, and pat you on the back for good moves, but without a leader with vision, your building in circles..

Sasha, RS, Zank, Gary... They know what they want and where they want to build. If you want to do that in the volume bandwidth you want to build, then you need to produce.

I do not mean that as anything other than motivation. You wade too deep here asking rather then swinging for the fences and I think it is 'challenging' for the brand.

Also ('cause opinions are like a*****es) I would question marketing your bike on your website as "Market Competitive". It doesn't sound very awesome. Say it with me in an excited tone, "Market Competitive!" How about just, "Here is the new Serotta", or "back to our roots". Market competitive is a term for this board, but not for people that dont know you.

C'mon, kick ass. I want you guys to kill it.

Ok, thanks,

Jason

[Elefantino]

Bill:

Sound reasoning. You're on the bottom line; others of us are hopelessly romantic about Serotta steel (I've owned four).

But speaking for this corner of the peanut gallery, here's hoping that you turn things around.

In the meantime, there are two Serottas in this stable and we'll continue to show the flag.

[bicycletricycle]

thats a good reason to not make steel frames.

[jr59]

Not that Bill's outlook will save Serotta all by it's self, because it won't.

I do find it refreshing that the CEO reads and responds to us, AND at least gives us a very honest answer to why he has suppened the steel line, for now!


It gives me hope that the brand is not DEAD, if may not be healthy, but to me, it has a heartbeat and so I have hope!

[sevencyclist]

Good for you Bill. You are right, many chiming in here would probably get a steel bike from other builders rather than Serotta when it came their time to put the money where their mouths are. So you made a decision based on reality rather than romance.

I am also glad to see that you have option of bring back the Colorado steel, if and when steel can become a material that will bring the company revenue rather than loss.

[54ny77]

Assuming you already took the writedown and jettisoned the fixed cost structure of your previous steel capability, how about doing limited edition annual runs of standard geo steel with outsourced fabrication (similar to Speedvagen, bringing in contract welders for a batch build), simple paint schemes (with modest upcharges for something unique like Huffy colors, for example) wouldn't that make for a compelling product?

Am just trying to come up with something constructive....:)

It's hard to get excited about a $4500 entry point for Serotta with a basic standard geo ti frame. That's $1k higher than a Moots Vamoots, for example.

Do a steel f&f like I described above for, say, $3k (if that level is even profitable) and that would be a really compelling product, not to mention a solid lead-in for something pricier later on.


Recently many of you asked the question: why did I take us out of steel bikes last month?

Pretty simple.

Because we could not bring a competitive price to the marketplace amidst competitors whom we respect and think are making good, solid bikes. You may or may not have a positive opinion about Serotta but I can tell you that I am not a guy that purposely likes to embarrass himself or the companies I work for. CEOing a company that has a 50% premium on its product without good reason does not seem to speak well about us.

Steel was our beginning back in the 70's, remains our passion and is Ben's favorite material to work with. But, for whatever reason - and we have not had the time to drill into the detail - we were just not making a steel bike at a competitive cost which could be for lots of reasons....Rather than continue to pretend like this was okay while we tried to figure it out - and, in turn, ignore the marketplace realities that all of you already know better than I do - I decided to kill the product line...

...for now. Would I want to see if we can deliver a Colorado to the market at a good price in the future? You bet. Can I (and the company) focus on that right now? No. Broken hearts and lots of disagreement internally and probably, out there, externally? Yep.

Like I said, I am trying to balance the CEO hat with the Bill the cyclist hat so have patience with me as I speak in here wearing the business hat. It is not meant to be an "advertisement" at all...just showing respect to fellow professionals with comments/questions/suggestions. There is another big part to my life and I would like to believe I will be welcomed and can be part of this community as Bill the rider/competitor, too.

Thanks for asking the question and listening to my response. See you out on the roads,
bill

[1centaur]

It would be interesting to know how many successful US builders are primarily making each of steel bikes, Ti bikes and carbon bikes. Maybe 30, 5 and 4? Mixed CF and Ti, 3? Those who have been to NAHBS might have a better feel for that split. Whatever the number, ask on a cycling forum which [fill in material] builder to look at, and the steel suggestions would be voluminous while the other two categories would be filled out and just echoed quite quickly.

Anybody with credible capabilities across those three materials trying to create a business plan is getting a pretty strong hint which way to lean. A one-man shop has a cost advantage in steel because sufficient economies of scale just can't be there on 250 frames vs. 50 to overcome the capacity utilization difference, and at 2,000+ frames you won't be seen as special in that niche. With Ti and CF you can distinguish yourself and thereby get margin at medium volumes...potentially. Still to be understood: what competitive advantage or at least story Serotta's California facilities can confer on the company's products and pricing.

[1centaur]

how about doing limited edition annual runs of standard geo steel with outsourced fabrication (similar to Speedvagen, bringing in contract welders for a batch build), simple paint schemes (with modest upcharges for something unique like Huffy colors, for example) wouldn't that make for a compelling product?

Do a steel f&f like I described above for, say, $3k (if that level is even profitable) and that would be a really compelling product, not to mention a solid lead-in for something pricier later on.

Speedvagen works in part because Vanilla has a design coolness factor that Serotta lacks at this point. Outside welders are needed because the Vanilla work is maxed out, right? Guessing Serotta's capacity utilization is not maxed out.

That said, limited edition anything can be a great way to get the name out and establish some marketing cred, but only if the bikes sell out. If that were the model, it might be possible to put up a design on the Web, get indications of interest on the Web, ask for reasonable deposits, and only build if 50 of those are in the bank. One or two failures to get interest would tarnish the brand, so the offering has to be compelling. 50 frames at $400 profit a frame (say) is not a business but it is negative cost marketing (NCM, hmmm, I think I'll trademark that).

[dd74]

Well, I guess the market value of Serotta steel bikes has just gone up.

[false_Aest]

Bill,

Good luck!

I'm not sure if this has been asked/answered, apologies if its redundant.

Who does Serotta want to sell to?
and
Who does Serotta want to inspire?


I think Serotta, at one point, did a great job of inspiring shop rats and getting those kids on their frames. Then stuff seemed to change: prices went up and other brands started offering bitchin frames at reasonable prices.

I saw a shift: less cat 1,2 racers on Serottas; more older/fatter guys riding them.

If this is what Serotta wants, OWN IT! No one can fault Serotta for making the best damn "dentist bike."

[dd74]

Serottas; more older/fatter guys riding them.
If this is what Serotta wants, OWN IT! No one can fault Serotta for making the best damn "dentist bike."
Marketing, obviously, is not your forte. :rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

Let me say first that I don't always want to be on the forum talking about Serotta. I am a pasionate cycling enthusiast (rider, competitor) and want to enjoy the forum as just another member!!

However, I also want to make sure that the community feels like I am not ignoring your questions and comments. I have invited a dialogue and don't want it to be only 1-way.

Recently many of you asked the question: why did I take us out of steel bikes last month?

Pretty simple.

Because we could not bring a competitive price to the marketplace amidst competitors whom we respect and think are making good, solid bikes. You may or may not have a positive opinion about Serotta but I can tell you that I am not a guy that purposely likes to embarrass himself or the companies I work for. CEOing a company that has a 50% premium on its product without good reason does not seem to speak well about us.

Steel was our beginning back in the 70's, remains our passion and is Ben's favorite material to work with. But, for whatever reason - and we have not had the time to drill into the detail - we were just not making a steel bike at a competitive cost which could be for lots of reasons....Rather than continue to pretend like this was okay while we tried to figure it out - and, in turn, ignore the marketplace realities that all of you already know better than I do - I decided to kill the product line...

...for now. Would I want to see if we can deliver a Colorado to the market at a good price in the future? You bet. Can I (and the company) focus on that right now? No. Broken hearts and lots of disagreement internally and probably, out there, externally? Yep.

Like I said, I am trying to balance the CEO hat with the Bill the cyclist hat so have patience with me as I speak in here wearing the business hat. It is not meant to be an "advertisement" at all...just showing respect to fellow professionals with comments/questions/suggestions. There is another big part to my life and I would like to believe I will be welcomed and can be part of this community as Bill the rider/competitor, too.

Thanks for asking the question and listening to my response. See you out on the roads,
bill

I'll always think of Serotta as a company that makes some of the finest American steel bikes around, but completely understand this approach. Sometimes the needs of the business supersede some other high-minded ideals.

[dekindy]

I observed that Landshark Bicycles went from solely offering steel to only offering carbon and doubled prices. I don't know about materials costs and production output change for the material change for a sole proprietor; but part of the motivation I would assume was to increase value add and profits?

Contrast that with Carl Strong who was offering steel and titanium, added carbon and probably quite a commitment in learning for a sole proprietor, but indicated carbon would probably only be 20% of his business and continues to offer both metal materials with no plans to change.

It is a funny industry.

[spiderman]

I pulled the trigger on the pearl white
And blue catalogue meivici a few years back
...and then decided to go another direction
In my riding when the fit wasn't quite right.
Instead of laying that dollar amount out
For an all carbon dream bike
I am riding a speedvagen road (steel)
Llewellyn fixed (steel)
And coupled Kirk terraplane (steel)

Then I decided to go with a custom Kirk cross (steel)
To top off of the stable...
Oh...And there are the steel surlys--pug/moonlander...
I must be missing something...
Forgot to mention the don walker and Fillmore...

[spiderman]

I pulled the trigger on the pearl white
And blue catalogue meivici a few years back
...and then decided to go another direction
In my riding when the fit wasn't quite right.
Instead of laying that dollar amount out
For an all carbon dream bike
I am riding a speedvagen road (steel)
Llewellyn fixed (steel)
And coupled Kirk terraplane (steel)

Then I decided to go with a custom Kirk cross (steel)
To top off of the stable...
Oh...And there are the steel surlys--pug/moonlander...
I must be missing something...
Forgot to mention the don walker and Fillmore...

I have owned some steel serotta bikes
CRL (eBay)
CIII (forum)
CSI (eBay)
Big dig (Craigslist)

I am on call and sleep deprived
And feel really good about accidentally
Quoting myself...
I join fixed in saying
Don't take anything I say seriously!

[zap]

Recently many of you asked the question: why did I take us out of steel bikes last month?

Pretty simple.

Because we could not bring a competitive price to the marketplace amidst competitors whom we respect and think are making good, solid bikes.
bill

If you can't be competitive making steel frames, what makes you think you will be competitive making ti frames.

[SamIAm]

Bill,

Good luck!

I'm not sure if this has been asked/answered, apologies if its redundant.

Who does Serotta want to sell to?
and
Who does Serotta want to inspire?


I think Serotta, at one point, did a great job of inspiring shop rats and getting those kids on their frames. Then stuff seemed to change: prices went up and other brands started offering bitchin frames at reasonable prices.

I saw a shift: less cat 1,2 racers on Serottas; more older/fatter guys riding them.

If this is what Serotta wants, OWN IT! No one can fault Serotta for making the best damn "dentist bike."

This is passive aggressive at best. The dentist thing is played, move on.

[boxerboxer]

This is passive aggressive at best. The dentist thing is played, move on.

Agreed, and it's not as if the dentist goes "hey, other fat dentists love this bike, gotta have one." The reality is somewhere on the spectrum of "I want people to know I spent a lot of money on my bike" to "I want a top quality frame and great service."

[dekindy]

I was at my LBS and overheard a young, successful professional, who just happened to get the Serotta fitter as his sales person, that he wanted an expensive toy. I have no idea whether he was a cyclist already, but he seemed fit. I immediately thought of Serotta and that he had come to the right place because my LBS could offer him custom expensive in Serotta or off the shelf Trek, Cannondale, and Giant.

[jpw]

I was at my LBS and overheard a young, successful professional, who just happened to get the Serotta fitter as his sales person, that he wanted an expensive toy. I have no idea whether he was a cyclist already, but he seemed fit. I immediately thought of Serotta and that he had come to the right place because my LBS could offer him custom expensive in Serotta or off the shelf Trek, Cannondale, and Giant.

what did he choose?

[jpw]

On the topic of Serotta retail prices, reflect on the fact that the London dealer is quoting GBP 5,999 for a custom Legend, GBP 6,499 for an Ottrott, and GBP 7,299 for a Meivici.

The exchange rate is approximately GBP 1 = US$ 1.60

[Ahneida Ride]

Posted by False Arrest
Serottas; more older/fatter guys riding them.
If this is what Serotta wants, OWN IT! No one can fault Serotta for making the best damn "dentist bike."

This is exactly the elitist attitude that will keep cycling from becoming
a primary recreational sport.

I suppose Porsche is a "Dentist Car" too.

Fact is many of these old fat guys have worked the a** off the get where
they are are and their discretionary income keeps many one man custom
builders in operation.

[firerescuefin]

Posted by False Arrest
Serottas; more older/fatter guys riding them.
If this is what Serotta wants, OWN IT! No one can fault Serotta for making the best damn "dentist bike."

This is exactly the elitist attitude that will keep cycling from becoming
a primary recreational sport.

I suppose Porsche is a "Dentist Car" too.

Fact is many of these old fat guys have worked the a** off the get where
they are are and their discretionary income keeps many one man custom
builders in operation.

I too tire of the Dentist comment, but product perception and placement is everything. Young guys aren't running into Tommy Bahamas for clothes. Youngish/racer types don't want to roll on a bike whose niche is perceived as rich/mid life crisis guy. That is the "general perception" (not mine). Own it, or change it. Those are your choices.

[jpw]

"...whose niche is perceived as rich/mid life crisis guy."


This is a conflation of distinctly separate issues.

Such a cliche. I know it's not necessarily your opinion. I just hate seeing it hawked around.

[zap]

I was at my LBS and overheard a young, successful professional, who just happened to get the Serotta fitter as his sales person, that he wanted an expensive toy. I have no idea whether he was a cyclist already, but he seemed fit. I immediately thought of Serotta and that he had come to the right place because my LBS could offer him custom expensive in Serotta or off the shelf Trek, Cannondale, and Giant.

The problem is, the successful professional can take a Trek or a Cannondale or a Giant home for test rides.

Serotta=guess. Especially if a fit is involved.

[Tom]

What makes me laugh is that the stereotype has already moved on, themselves, if my ortho surgeon and the guy in full RS kit screaming "PASSING" at every family group on the bike path back into town are any indication.

I tell the nurse how I broke my hand, she says "Oh! Doctor ---- is a biker, too!" He has two questions for me - how do I keep my ass from hurting and my hands from going numb when I go more than about twenty five miles and oh, what do you think of Seven?

Interestingly, Mr Passing was on an Axiom with a 45 degree stem.

I'd say that Serotta has no worries about that problem any more.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Own it, or change it. Those are your choices.

. . . they've been trying to do that with several attempts over the past few years to market less expensive models--a way for new, less affluent owners to get into the brand.

But even those lower priced models have still been pretty costly didn't come across as "hip" compared to the comparative market offerings. I had a chance a few years ago to ride one of their "Heritage" models and while it was a really fine bike, it just didn't have a lot of "cool" factor.

Management needs to accept that they have to do some heavy reconstruction work on the company reputation. Find some way to make it hip again before they can count on younger, potential new customers even paying attention long enough to be able to see the virtues of their bikes. It's not that younger buyers necessarily see them as "dentist & lawyer bikes." It's that they don't see them as anything at all.

If they don't see this and invest in what's needed to remake the reputation, then I fear this new effort will not work any better than the previous ones.

BBD

[zandrrr]

FWIW the orthodontist in my local group rides an S-Works Venge.

[Jason E]

Posted by False Arrest
Serottas; more older/fatter guys riding them.
If this is what Serotta wants, OWN IT! No one can fault Serotta for making the best damn "dentist bike."

This is exactly the elitist attitude that will keep cycling from becoming
a primary recreational sport.

I suppose Porsche is a "Dentist Car" too.

Fact is many of these old fat guys have worked the a** off the get where
they are are and their discretionary income keeps many one man custom
builders in operation.

My oncologist drives a Porsche. God bless the fact that he does. Who wants a beat down broke oncologist over a successful one? Run from oncologists living in trailer parks. That's my message to you kids today!

[HenryA]

So much of this depends on the dealer selling the bike. It easy to sell bikes out of boxes and send the customer on his/her way. And that's not a bad thing but fortunately its not the only way.

If the bike shop sales staff is any good at all, they will be able to convince some percentage of customers to buy a nice custom bike. It might be a Serotta. And it might be because they are the most likely to be represented in a shop. Or Seven of IF maybe. Most tiny builders are not.

Whether its a fat old dentist (the Xbox generation's boogeyman on this forum) or a lithe and fit 28 year old, their money is all the same color.

If the best you can do judging people is this generally stated model, you are displaying your inexperience, ignorance and sophistry for all the world to see. Its not the old fat guy on the nice bike that you -wish- you could buy. Its you who are to be looked upon with disdain.

[Ginger]

Late to the party, but I've been busy. And, as this post is page 8 or so, you probably won't read this...but...

Welcome to the bin! It ain't always loony around here, but there are plenty of good people here with good hearts and excellent minds who have stuck with the Serotta brand for a very long time. And it's good that someone has decided to take the time to listen to the bin. Serotta has had someone on that from time to time, but perhaps not someone with the correct ..um... direction.

In response to item 1 of the OP. If people are picking at you for not writing them an individual love letter, there's not much hope for pleasing them. Introducing yourself to forums as CEO of a brand with such varied history as Serotta is a brave thing to do.

I've watched Serotta over the years really get in touch with their customer base, and get the customer base really excited, then they've turned around and pulled the rug out from under a percentage of that base. I realize that usually has to do with what the market is doing, but it also smelt of chasing the market rather than making the market or tending to their own current market share. While I realize that these things must happen at some points, it's a shame quite a bit of good will towards the brand has been shed in that manner. Good luck on finding a path for the brand that helps everyone move forward together.

That said. While I am not in your future customer base (married to a frame builder, I have the perfect bike...) I found this forum when I was looking for a custom bike a long long time ago. My club, and the shop they were based out of were big on Serottas. So I started looking at the bikes and found the forum (the Kahuna forum...) and found a community here that was very involved and in love with their Serottas.
When a used CSi came available in the club, I bought it and built it up and I was very impressed with the fit and finish of the frame and the ride and handling of the bike. So I set my sights on purchasing a custom CSi. While I had an unfortunate experience with the Serotta-trained fitter (he wasn't incorrect, he was just wrong..), our club's coach got me all sorted out and I was about to buy my dream bike, and Serotta stopped making the model I was after (I may have been looking at a DKS...) So I hmmmed and hawed and decided on another model, and it went out the door too.
Keeping in mind that I'm not a doctor or a dentist, as a rider who rides centuries and other long rides I was really impressed with the Serotta and was willing to pay more that perhaps I should have considering my income at the time for what I saw as the best bike for my chosen riding habit.
(I wanted steel, found out Dave Kirk was building and purchased a Kirk with terraplane stays...very happy with that bike too... It suits the purpose for which it was built very well.)

I don't see that Serotta is just selling a bike. It's a dream you're selling. That perfect bike for the purpose at hand.

Cheers!
Mary Ann

P.S. My Dentist rides a Serotta...but he's a Cat 1 racer so please forgive him.

[fa63]

I am not sure if I am considered a potential customer (30 year old with a decent amount of disposable income; I could certainly afford one), but I have to say that at the moment Serotta wouldn't even rank in my top five if I were in the market for a custom or non-custom Ti or carbon frame. There are a variety of other builders out there who arguably do as good of a job at a fraction of the price.

[jpw]

I am not sure if I am considered a potential customer (30 year old with a decent amount of disposable income; I could certainly afford one), but I have to say that at the moment Serotta wouldn't even rank in my top five if I were in the market for a custom or non-custom Ti or carbon frame. There are a variety of other builders out there who arguably do as good of a job at a fraction of the price.

what is your top five?

[fa63]

Carl Strong
Firefly
Crumpton
Black Sheep
Spectrum

[I Want Sachs?]

Carl Strong
Firefly
Crumpton
Black Sheep
Spectrum
That's a good list. Most of those guys are able to deliver an even more individualized service to their customers than the bigger companies like Serotta, Seven, Moots, or IF, meaning more direct framemaker to customer interaction.

[spiderman]

Carl Strong
Firefly
Crumpton
Black Sheep
Spectrum

Can't wait to see which way you go with this...
Creating a top ten list could muddy the water
But might open up the options before
Nailing it down to your final answer(s)...
However, my guess is serotta
Might not even make the top ten??

[fa63]

Not sure if there is a point in further extending the list. The point I was trying to make is, I do not see the value of a Serotta frame. I can pay $5,500 for a custom Serotta Legend, or pay $3,400 for a custom Strong double-butted titanium frame. That is a big difference; I can buy a great set of wheels for that. And I bet both will ride great. I feel that Serotta may have had an edge in technology / craftsmanship before, but that no longer seems to be case. So I am not sure why Serotta feel they can still command such a big premium.

If I am going to spend that kind of money, than it will be something wild like this, this one made by Black Sheep for Vuelo Velo :) (and this is probably still less than a Serotta, given that their road frames start at $2,900):

https://s3.amazonaws.com/velogallery/vv1.jpg

Now that is craftsmanship.

[54ny77]

any idea what kind of cranks those are?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/velogallery/vv1.jpg

[fa63]

Looks like Tune Fast Foot?:

http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/components/cranks/WMB80.gear.tunecranks-399-75.jpg

[William]

GL steel and titanium—5 models total, fabricated by Serotta.

Steel & Ti "Race" with cool names
Steel & Ti "Sport" with cool names
Steel CX with a cool name

Why not? At least in a limited run. Direct sales, or order through Serotta dealers.

Keeps Serotta busy, gets LeMond bikes back in the spotlight, the renaissance of two great American stories, etc...

Cross posting and interesting idea.:cool: With the Revival (or vindication) of Lemond back following the whole LA debacle, it might be an iron to strike while it's hot.






William




William

[Gummee]

That's a good list. Most of those guys are able to deliver an even more individualized service to their customers than the bigger companies like Serotta, Seven, Moots, or IF, meaning more direct framemaker to customer interaction.If I were picking from a list, it'd be Firefly, then Moots, then IF, then Serotta in descending order of 'drool factor.'

Man-o-man are those Firefly bikes drool-worthy.

...but my next bike is likely to be a 'used, out of the box AL frame' or a 'new from China carbon frame' due to budget issues.

M

[RkyMtn]

Mr. Watkins, congratulations on your appointment with Serotta and best regards to your and Ben's next phase for the company. I have a Meivici from 2009 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=59965) and I still have not sold it. I have certainly experienced the customer service snafu's in the past, but as the wisdom goes: past performance is not indicative of future performance. Maybe some day I will get my Serotta cycling shirt, but that has nothing to do with how lovely my Meivici rides and I still thank Ben for this creation. Looking forward to seeing how the company evolves, especially since we have 4 more years of recession to endure.

I think your decision to drop the steel line is wise, as there is too much custom steel frame makers out there to compete against, and the inventory carrying costs of Italian Columbus steel with our weakened dollar is just not a good idea in this economy. Ti, carbon and a blend are perfect!!!

I also appreciate that you are willing to try and make Serotta a true "Made in the USA" (for those who don't know, one only need to add some value to a product made over-seas to be able to put a "Made in the USA" sticker on the product.) I hope you are able to succeed in this endeavor!

I do have one question: Is the Serotta frame insurance policy I bought with my Meivici still in effect?

Thanks for being brave and trying to be communicative about what is happening at Serotta.

RkyMtn
Denver, CO

[dd74]

You know, I wouldn't discount the "big builders" in the market; or at least those who have been known in cycling for decades much longer than Serotta as well as others.

Cinelli will still build a custom spec frame for whomever requests, as will Colnago, Casati and Tommasini. You just need to request as much from a certified dealer.

I also bet Trek and Specialized wouldn't object to listening to a customer's particular desires toward a more custom-like frame. Sure, it'll cost more $$$, but it's at least worth a phone call, and with that, some drilling down until you reach the right person.

[dekindy]

I also bet Trek and Specialized wouldn't object to listening to a customer's particular desires toward a more custom-like frame. Sure, it'll cost more $$$, but it's at least worth a phone call, and with that, some drilling down until you reach the right person.

On what basis are you making this statement because it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me?

[ElvisMerckx]

....Trek and Specialized wouldn't object to listening to a customer's particular desires toward a more "custom-like" frame...

Of course, "custom-like" means you have a choice among their paint schemes and the dealer will switch out the stem and saddle for you free of charge.

[dd74]

On what basis are you making this statement because it sounds absolutely ridiculous to me?
On the basis of a phone call. Research trumps "sounds absolutely ridiculous" anytime. You should try it. :rolleyes:

[dd74]

Of course, "custom-like" means you have a choice among their paint schemes and the dealer will switch out the stem and saddle for you free of charge.
True, but I also read somewhere - one of the reviews on the latest Madone - that it can be even more custom built beyond paint schemes, stems and saddles. At any rate, it'd still be worth a call to Trek if a Madone is what someone wants. I haven't called; I've no interest in Trek at the moment.

[54ny77]

who buys all these high end treks?

in my experience (so cal and the northeast), a high end trek sighting is like 1 in 20 bikes, maybe. more like 1 in 30.

i was looking at a midrange model several months ago but they sure aren't cheap. a caad 10 kills it in terms of value proposition.


True, but I also read somewhere - one of the reviews on the latest Madone - that it can be even more custom built beyond paint schemes, stems and saddles. At any rate, it'd still be worth a call to Trek if a Madone is what someone wants. I haven't called; I've no interest in Trek at the moment.

[jpw]

I passed a rider with a Trek Domane last week. He was at the side of the road with his chain stuck between stay and ring. How durable is carbon to a bit of chain 'rip'?

[dd74]

who buys all these high end treks?
No one at the bike shops I go to (in L.A.) In fact at one where Treks are prominent on the showroom floor, the salesman first showed me a shattered Madone, broken at the headtube, and said he gets one like that every two or so months. Afterward, he told me steel is a much better frame material.

"Get a Gunnar," he advised.

[oldpotatoe]

No one at the bike shops I go to (in L.A.) In fact at one where Treks are prominent on the showroom floor, the salesman first showed me a shattered Madone, broken at the headtube, and said he gets one like that every two or so months. Afterward, he told me steel is a much better frame material.

"Get a Gunnar," he advised.

A 'salesman' in a Trek store, showed you a broken Madone, said get broken ones often, said steel is much better........and he still has a job?

[slidey]

I don't think there's anything surprising about this.

I too have had similar conversations at a few LBS' but only with those who I have a great rapport with. However, I'm reasonably sure that a first-time visitor to these LBS' wouldn't be privy to such candid discussions for numerous reasons.

A 'salesman' in a Trek store, showed you a broken Madone, said get broken ones often, said steel is much better........and he still has a job?

[biker72]

A 'salesman' in a Trek store, showed you a broken Madone, said get broken ones often, said steel is much better........and he still has a job?

+1
He/she would be gone in a heartbeat where I work...:)

[Serotta_Carbon]

No one at the bike shops I go to (in L.A.) In fact at one where Treks are prominent on the showroom floor, the salesman first showed me a shattered Madone, broken at the headtube, and said he gets one like that every two or so months.

Trust me guys it doesn't need to be that way.... Perhaps they're just making them too light...

Kind of reminds me of when I used to make sailboat parts. If we made them strong enough not to break then they were considered too heavy and non competitive. Sort of like what I read here about Meivicis...

I didn't mind taking weight out of the sailboat parts until they broke in routine service but I don't consider it good practice with bike parts.

[rnhood]

Not sure about the Meivici, unless its perhaps way heavy. Pinarello carbons are also considered heavy by many aficionados but, the road is full of them. Weight does play a role but, its marketing, price and performance that mostly define success imho. I think creative models like the aero Meivici or HSG has potential but, Serotta seems to ignore it.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Did they have floor stock they needed to move? Stock that was available immediately as opposed to the Madones they might have to wait a week for and lost the immediate sale?

Does the Gunnar have a higher margin than the Trek?

BBD

[1centaur]

Trust me guys it doesn't need to be that way.... Perhaps they're just making them too light...
.

Plenty of very light CF bikes not shattering out there every day, week after week, month after month. The craft advances inexorably.

[RkyMtn]

One of the issues I have with the bicycle market is that most customers don't know how a high quality frame performs. They have no reference. How many different bikes does one have to ride to develop a experiential scale of handling and ride characteristics to know what is what and what their particular preference likes are? I have been blessed with finding quality used frames here to test and ride and enjoy to develop a sense of how different materials and builders balance the polarities of a frame's characteristics.

It is very similar to my experience of trying to decide on my first car purchase. I spent a lot of time reading the auto magazines (no internet back then,... spoiled kids of today) and test driving when i could. But a quick test drive will not be able to determine a number of scenarios that might be real deal breakers.

So, the average consumer tries to get the best value for the dollar in the best case scenario. Looks, weight and how the bike magazines play their reviews. If a person likes the ride on their Giant TCR, they probably can't image how an additional $5K for a custom Serotta could be that much better value-wise. And I can't blame them. I took a chance and I am very happy that I did. But it was still a chance at that time.

In the end, Louis Vuitton is still selling luggage sets in spite of the high quality of Samsonite for 1/20th the price.

[nicrump]

what some young buck working the floor of the local shop says isn't necessarily fact.

[jpw]

what some young buck working the floor of the local shop says isn't necessarily fact.

many crumpled crumptons over the years?

[nicrump]

many crumpled crumptons over the years?

i'll give an honest and detailed answer to that question if and when i understand your intensions.

[jpw]

i'll give an honest and detailed answer to that question if and when i understand your intensions.

knowledge and transparency.

If any builder came on here in a thread discussing the durability of materials I'd see it an an opportunity to learn from someone with the time served authority to speak on the subject.

I've yet to buy a carbon frame (I have ti and steel), but you are on my short list of possibles, along with Parlee, and Serotta, and a couple of others.

[dd74]

Did they have floor stock they needed to move? Stock that was available immediately as opposed to the Madones they might have to wait a week for and lost the immediate sale?

Yes.

Does the Gunnar have a higher margin than the Trek?
I wouldn't think so. I've only seen two Gunnar bikes for sale in L.A. in I'd say...forever.[/QUOTE]

[dd74]

many crumpled crumptons over the years?
Not knowing much about carbon, but having seen both Madones and Crumptons, I'd say the Crumpton is a much more formidable frame. Same goes for Parlee.

[nicrump]

This maybe should go to the builder profile?

Transparency. I have built ~385 carbon frames(i'm gonna have to call +/-5) since June of '03 with 365 of those since '05

Of those #2, #1 and #3 are dead in that order. An error learned early on and actually corrected in #4 before the flaw came to roost.

I had a small hand full of dropouts un-bond from the first 15, inferior bonding agent since replaced. They were actually barely detected but found when trying to track down a noise. JB weld was used for the first 15 and was quickly replaced with a much higher quality adhesive long before the flaws came to roost.

3 broken dropouts in the gen1 SL with the Easton stays.

I know of 3 dead frames due to hard crashes and a parking garage incident.

A handfull CS or ST patches, almost always a "racer" in a crit in a crash.

1 cracked seat tube due to torquing the seatpost clamp without a post installed. Make that 2, one was a severely undersized post and subsequent torque to hold it in place. Just fixed that yesterday ;-)

Of course who knows what goes un-reported.

To add, the first UL ever built has been in service since Jan '07 as a daily driver, 56cm, 738g, lives in hawaii and is constantly on and off gravel roads. i replaced a dropout in that frame after he got knocked down by a scooter and ripped the der hanger off. I'd wager that frame is better than 35k mi on it.

As for the Treks, they are what they are. They are very different than what I build but IMO they are by no means as bad as has been suggested in the thread.



knowledge and transparency.

If any builder came on here in a thread discussing the durability of materials I'd see it an an opportunity to learn from someone with the time served authority to speak on the subject.

I've yet to buy a carbon frame (I have ti and steel), but you are on my short list of possibles, along with Parlee, and Serotta, and a couple of others.

[malcolm]

This maybe should go to the builder profile?

Transparency. I have built ~385 carbon frames(i'm gonna have to call +/-5) since June of '03 with 365 of those since '05

Of those #2, #1 and #3 are dead in that order. An error learned early on and actually corrected in #4 before the flaw came to roost.

I had a small hand full of dropouts un-bond from the first 15, inferior bonding agent since replaced. They were actually barely detected but found when trying to track down a noise. JB weld was used for the first 15 and was quickly replaced with a much higher quality adhesive long before the flaws came to roost.

3 broken dropouts in the gen1 SL with the Easton stays.

I know of 3 dead frames due to hard crashes and a parking garage incident.

A handfull CS or ST patches, almost always a "racer" in a crit in a crash.

1 cracked seat tube due to torquing the seatpost clamp without a post installed. Make that 2, one was a severely undersized post and subsequent torque to hold it in place. Just fixed that yesterday ;-)

Of course who knows what goes un-reported.

To add, the first UL ever built has been in service since Jan '07 as a daily driver, 56cm, 738g, lives in hawaii and is constantly on and off gravel roads. i replaced a dropout in that frame after he got knocked down by a scooter and ripped the der hanger off. I'd wager that frame is better than 35k mi on it.

As for the Treks, they are what they are. They are very different than what I build but IMO they are by no means as bad as has been suggested in the thread.

Kudos Nick for laying it out there.

I saw a beautiful crumpton go down hard in the crit race at hotter n hell hundred a couple of years ago. Made me cringe but it was ridden off.

[bluesea]

To add, the first UL ever built has been in service since Jan '07 as a daily driver, 56cm, 738g, lives in hawaii and is constantly on and off gravel roads. i replaced a dropout in that frame after he got knocked down by a scooter and ripped the der hanger off. I'd wager that frame is better than 35k mi on it.




Its not a triathlon/time trial set up is it?

[nicrump]

no. traditional road.

Its not a triathlon/time trial set up is it?

[bluesea]

Ah, another (different) Crumpton in HI.

[crupshaw]

I saw two Crumptons racing cross in Georgetown (Texas) last weekend. They were some mighty fine lookin bikes. Incidently, the riders were getting destroyed by Will Black of the Trek Cycling Collective. Nice looking bikes though.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes.


I wouldn't think so. I've only seen two Gunnar bikes for sale in L.A. in I'd say...forever.[/QUOTE]

For a Gunnar/Waterford dealer, the margin on frame and fork is very good for a stocking dealer, very good.

When the bicycle is done, the time in fitting, designing, building, including wheels, the margin is OK..the frame/fork margin makes it worthwhile.

[nicrump]

I saw two Crumptons racing cross in Georgetown (Texas) last weekend. They were some mighty fine lookin bikes. Incidently, the riders were getting destroyed by Will Black of the Trek Cycling Collective. Nice looking bikes though.

Damn that Will Black...

edit: says with affection

[EDS]

Query: Serotta has two identical frames for sale at identical prices, one says "Pronto" on the top tube and one says "Legend". Which one is more likely to sell first? Which do you think you could sell more of?

[Nooch]

Query: Serotta has two identical frames for sale at identical prices, one says "Pronto" on the top tube and one says "Legend". Which one is more likely to sell first? Which do you think you could sell more of?

Legend SG is $4495 for a frame and fork, Pronto/Fondo are $4295 *complete*

I'm also sure there's a difference in the Ti used to produce the different models, a butting difference or something, that warrants the premium.

[jpw]

This maybe should go to the builder profile?

Transparency. I have built ~385 carbon frames(i'm gonna have to call +/-5) since June of '03 with 365 of those since '05

Of those #2, #1 and #3 are dead in that order. An error learned early on and actually corrected in #4 before the flaw came to roost.

I had a small hand full of dropouts un-bond from the first 15, inferior bonding agent since replaced. They were actually barely detected but found when trying to track down a noise. JB weld was used for the first 15 and was quickly replaced with a much higher quality adhesive long before the flaws came to roost.

3 broken dropouts in the gen1 SL with the Easton stays.

I know of 3 dead frames due to hard crashes and a parking garage incident.

A handfull CS or ST patches, almost always a "racer" in a crit in a crash.

1 cracked seat tube due to torquing the seatpost clamp without a post installed. Make that 2, one was a severely undersized post and subsequent torque to hold it in place. Just fixed that yesterday ;-)

Of course who knows what goes un-reported.

To add, the first UL ever built has been in service since Jan '07 as a daily driver, 56cm, 738g, lives in hawaii and is constantly on and off gravel roads. i replaced a dropout in that frame after he got knocked down by a scooter and ripped the der hanger off. I'd wager that frame is better than 35k mi on it.

As for the Treks, they are what they are. They are very different than what I build but IMO they are by no means as bad as has been suggested in the thread.

This is how I would like this forum to be. You've set a great example.

Chapeau.

Jason.

[William]

This maybe should go to the builder profile?

.

Your wish is my command.:)




William

[EDS]

Legend SG is $4495 for a frame and fork, Pronto/Fondo are $4295 *complete*

I'm also sure there's a difference in the Ti used to produce the different models, a butting difference or something, that warrants the premium.

Point being are people more willing to buy because of the branding (i.e., is there value to having legend on the toptube)?

[rounder]

I agree with Ginger, but can't say it as well.

I bought my first Serotta in 1992. I had recently gotten into bikes (went from Sears to Schwinn Traveler to Bianchi Brava over a three month period). The Tour de Trump came to Baltimore and I had to rethink everything. I looked around and wanted something nicer. I was trying to decide between Merckx and Serotta. I went for Serotta. The shop had a Colorado II (red to yellow fade) and a red NHX (red with yellow graphics) hanging from the ceiling. Couldn't take my eyes off the red NHX, so bought it and rode it as my only bike for the next 15 years.

About six years go, saw an ebay ad for a red CIII. Never bought anything from ebay before, but bought it and built it up. Bike rides great and love it. About three years ago, bought a KB bike (sort of still in the Serotta family). Bike rode great and is beautiful, so I bought it and another. Overwhelmed as before.

I like Serotta. Hope Ben and the brand lives forever.

[dd74]

I like Serotta. Hope Ben and the brand lives forever.
Problem is, buying Serotta frames second hand does nothing for Serotta. They never see the money. Maybe while out on the road with other cyclists, the notoriety of the Serotta name might eventually help the company. But if you were to truly want to support Serotta, you'd buy new, directly from the manufacturer.

[jpw]

Problem is, buying Serotta frames second hand does nothing for Serotta. They never see the money. Maybe while out on the road with other cyclists, the notoriety of the Serotta name might eventually help the company. But if you were to truly want to support Serotta, you'd buy new, directly from the manufacturer.

Not necessarily. An owner may sell to part fund the purchase of a new Serotta (wrong size, newer model/ materials).

[dancinkozmo]

This is how I would like this forum to be. You've set a great example.

Chapeau.

Jason.

Yes..terrific !

[Elefantino]

Problem is, buying Serotta frames second hand does nothing for Serotta. They never see the money. Maybe while out on the road with other cyclists, the notoriety of the Serotta name might eventually help the company. But if you were to truly want to support Serotta, you'd buy new, directly from the manufacturer.
I think you sorta kinda contradicted yourself?

Whatever hand Serotta frames are bought (second-, third-), if they're ridden they're furthering the brand, no? Like rolling adverts.

[jpw]

Yes..terrific !

Yes indeed! Fewer cliques and tribes, and a healthier environment to encourage honest, open, and transparent conversations.

[TimS]

Did I read this right? Steel production is over for the time being? I have been off of the board for a week or so....

[oliver1850]

Problem is, buying Serotta frames second hand does nothing for Serotta. They never see the money. Maybe while out on the road with other cyclists, the notoriety of the Serotta name might eventually help the company. But if you were to truly want to support Serotta, you'd buy new, directly from the manufacturer.

Buying used helps any brand. I think part of Serotta's problem has been the availability of great condition Serottas on the used market at very low prices, compared to new. Some buyers may only be in the market for a new frame, but a large percentage will just as easily buy a nice used frame at 1/4 the cost of new. The more used frames on the market, the more likely it is for the buyer to ignore new as even an option. Serotta is the victim of its past success to some extent, especially with the steel bikes.

[William]

...The more used frames on the market, the more likely it is for the buyer to ignore new as even an option. Serotta is the victim of its past success to some extent, especially with the steel bikes.

That, and there are many more builders now that can offer great steel rides at a lower cost. Makes sense for them to avoid steel right now....at least until they can get re-established. Even then though they may not want to go there.




William

[54ny77]

there was a superb looking (condition-wise) meivici with da 7800 and complete build kit (ritchey, etc) that just was on ebay--i saw the psa in classifieds--that went for $2125.

that's a brutal statement on the value proposition for original owners, should they ever give thought to selling. it's awesome for secondary market buyers like myself, however.

by the way i would never fathom viewing a $2125 meivici purchase as a stepping stone for a new one at $15k+. the thought of a vibrant used market propping up the value of serottas kinda goes out the window when looking at that above-referenced transaction.

the price of new admission these days is just absolutely staggering--for meivici's and other high end bikes as well.

[dd74]

I think you sorta kinda contradicted yourself?

Whatever hand Serotta frames are bought (second-, third-), if they're ridden they're furthering the brand, no? Like rolling adverts.
I said might. A much better and more direct way to further the brand is to buy directly from the brand.

[dd74]

Buying used helps any brand. I think part of Serotta's problem has been the availability of great condition Serottas on the used market at very low prices, compared to new. Some buyers may only be in the market for a new frame, but a large percentage will just as easily buy a nice used frame at 1/4 the cost of new. The more used frames on the market, the more likely it is for the buyer to ignore new as even an option. Serotta is the victim of its past success to some extent, especially with the steel bikes.
Interesting, maybe a used steel Serotta is more an endorsement for steel than the brand, especially now as steel is no longer part of Serotta's lineup.

[Elefantino]

I said might. A much better and more direct way to further the brand is to buy directly from the brand.

Of course. But because many previously owned Serottas are usually in quite good condition, a combination of the quality of the build and the dedication of the owner(s), they're great billboards.

A lot of dentists see them. And they don't like buying used bikes. :banana:

[dd74]

the price of new admission these days is just absolutely staggering--for meivici's and other high end bikes as well.
Yup. It's just a matter of how high end do you need to go, and with whom.

Crumpton and Parlee seem to be a better deal re. carbon. Ti., well the latest Bicycling Magazine outlines a few U.S. built models priced far below Serotta's offers. True custom at that.

[dd74]

A lot of dentists see them. And they don't like buying used bikes. :banana:
LOL. The only dentist I know who rides, rides Trek. But with Campy, of course.

[William]

I think this has been brought up before but I'll throw it out there anyway.....

It seems like Serotta was on different paths at the same time. On the one hand they had grown into a "factory" from a small shop. Had their own large square foot mfr. facility with cnc machines, welders, tooling, in-house paint facility, and eventually added a carbon fiber production facility. I think that type of production capacity would require volume to keep it humming and money flowing. The pricing on the other hand targeted the ultra high end which would ensure lower numbers going through the door, admittedly at a higher price. It seems like a lot of overhead to bet on low numbers. Add a bad economy to increased quality competition at a lower price and problems seem inevitable.

With the capabilities Serotta has at their finger tips wouldn't quality volume at a very competitive price point be the way to go? Add on the capability to produce rebranded carbon bits, and CNC'd parts for others and you might have a winning combo.





Then again, I may not know my arse from my elbow.:)








William

[Elefantino]

Then again, I may not know my arse from my elbow.:)
A little help for you.

http://murphymachinart.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/arse-elbow-copy-for-web.jpg

[William]

A little help for you.



But I passed the quiz!!:confused:


http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/479000/ngbbs3df4668a1c869.jpg





;)
William

[Gummee]

I think this has been brought up before but I'll throw it out there anyway.....

It seems like Serotta was on different paths at the same time. On the one hand they had grown into a "factory" from a small shop. Had their own large square foot mfr. facility with cnc machines, welders, tooling, in-house paint facility, and eventually added a carbon fiber production facility. I think that type of production capacity would require volume to keep it humming and money flowing. The pricing on the other hand targeted the ultra high end which would ensure lower numbers going through the door, admittedly at a higher price. It seems like a lot of overhead to bet on low numbers. Add a bad economy to increased quality competition at a lower price and problems seem inevitable.

With the capabilities Serotta has at their finger tips wouldn't quality volume at a very competitive price point be the way to go? Add on the capability to produce rebranded carbon bits, and CNC'd parts for others and you might have a winning combo.

Then again, I may not know my arse from my elbow.:)

William

If that's the case, how bout something along a 2-tiered lineup? Think Gunnar/Waterford.

Just tossing out ideas

M

[bicycletricycle]

If that's the case, how bout something along a 2-tiered lineup? Think Gunnar/Waterford.

Just tossing out ideas

M

what would it be called
fauxrotta?

[esldude]

what would it be called
fauxrotta?

Maybe Ecorotta?

[echelon_john]

i think a lower-end serotta exists. and it's called fondo.



Maybe Ecorotta?

[alexstar]

Maybe Ecorotta?

Serotta Eco Strada?

[rustylion]

bill here from Serotta.

I thought I could respond to the below question:

The SG Legend is built with seamless Ti tubing that we swage and butt. We also work with different Ti variables that produces a slighly more sophisticated tubing although not the the SE Legend level.

The SG Pronto/Fondo is built with seamless Ti tubing but is straight tubing, ie., not swaged and butted. It is a nice, high-performance Ti tubing but not SG Legend level.

Thanks.

ride hard, be well, have fun.
bill
518-584-8100x313
bill.watkins@serotta.com
www.rustylion.com

Legend SG is $4495 for a frame and fork, Pronto/Fondo are $4295 *complete*

I'm also sure there's a difference in the Ti used to produce the different models, a butting difference or something, that warrants the premium.

[vav]

Singolo. Bring it back in Ti. With fender mounts.

[aptivaboy]

Bill, any chance that we'll see Serotta time trial or Tri bike? Serotta once had such models. I'm older, now and I'll never race crits again. But, I would like to pound out some mile and maybe do a time trial once in a awhile. I'm capable of that. any chance that we'll see something to fit this niche?

Thanks for your time,

Robert

- Serotta Colorado II owner
- Davis Phinney model Serotta owner

'cuz steel is real!

[jpw]

gravel bike please. L'Eroica special.

[Pete Mckeon]

Drop by and try my Serotta Ti which was built a few years ago with cantilever brakes and has fender mounts and is very adequate for such places as umstead park . Rode the dirt rides of VT a few years ago and had no problems with the mud and gravel. It is natural ti and not painted so I had no chips collected in the ventures. It is going to Tx hill country trip this March.

Have a wonderful holiday this next week. Pete


gravel bike please. L'Eroica special.

[floresb]

Love the focus and commitment to move the brand forward!