RustyLion and bike shops and some ramblings

[Smiley]

Man, you start a new job and get distracted and not log in for awhile and things get crazy here. Anyway Rustylion replaced Howard Berkowitz in a pretty fast move, don't know why and don't care why, seems both men were up to the task at hand with Rusty having a better understanding of the Serotta brand due to his racing background. I wish him and Ben Serotta nothing but good sucess.

Unfortunately the game has changed, its starts with the dealers and they are being pressured to carry one of the big three or four. Trek, Specialized, C Dale and Giant. I don't think a shop or at least my local shops can afford anymore to stock boutique brand custom bikes on their floor that don't sell. Thinking that you can resurrect the brand by just cleaning up your prices and models is fine but who's going to sell them anymore. Sure shops will sell you a custom here and there BUT they won't stock the brand and make the commitment to moving a custom line. I for one would like to hear more from shop guys that can add to this point of view. I already know what Old Potatoe will say but I also know what the Washington Metro area shops do and what my old dealers have to say on this subject. They need to TURN inventory and custom brands do sit on the showroom floor taking up space and costing money. The solution for guys like Serotta as well Parlee and Seven is not easy anymore. Guys like Bedford sells through shops with no stocking commitment and shops like that, I recon others like Moots do the same maybe??

[nighthawk]

The glaring thing I've heard from one of my LBSs is that Serotta's minimums were too much, and OldP has shared a similar sentiment. According to the gentleman I spoke with, he could still carry as many Serottas as he'd like (he had a few, steeply discounted)... But they wouldn't list him as a dealer on their website because he was under minimum. Seems to me like an unhealthy way to do business.

This is only part I the problem... And it's clear the solution is going to have to be unique and creative. There is no other bike company like Serotta.

[spiderman]

Man, you start a new job and get distracted and not log in for awhile and things get crazy here. Anyway Rustylion replaced Howard Berkowitz in a pretty fast move, don't know why and don't care why, seems both men were up to the task at hand with Rusty having a better understanding of the Serotta brand due to his racing background. I wish him and Ben Serotta nothing but good sucess.

Unfortunately the game has changed, its starts with the dealers and they are being pressured to carry one of the big three or four. Trek, Specialized, C Dale and Giant. I don't think a shop or at least my local shops can afford anymore to stock boutique brand custom bikes on their floor that don't sell. Thinking that you can resurrect the brand by just cleaning up your prices and models is fine but who's going to sell them anymore. Sure shops will sell you a custom here and there BUT they won't stock the brand and make the commitment to moving a custom line. I for one would like to hear more from shop guys that can add to this point of view. I already know what Old Potatoe will say but I also know what the Washington Metro area shops do and what my old dealers have to say on this subject. They need to TURN inventory and custom brands do sit on the showroom floor taking up space and costing money. The solution for guys like Serotta as well Parlee and Seven is not easy anymore. Guys like Bedford sells through shops with no stocking commitment and shops like that, I recon others like Moots do the same maybe??

My wife and I were so committed to the serotta brand
And our local shop that when it came up for sale
We developed a business plan and talked to the bank
...we even signed a non-compete agreement...
Then my accountant told me to go down to the bank
Take out 100k in 100 dollar bills
And begin throwing them into west lake okoboji
To simulate how it would feel
To keep the shop running
With the serotta brand "as is"...

[AngryScientist]

one problem without a dealer network, that i see here in 2012 is that the younger generation, and i mean under 40, lots have NEVER seen a Serotta in the metal.

Smiley, you know i ride the hell out of your wife's old Legend, and when i show people how great of a bike it is, they are impressed. impressed that my bike weighs about what their budget carbon bike weights, impressed with the great craftsmanship, etc.

but mine is the only one they've seen! no one is riding serotta out there, relatively speaking. and if you cant see it in a shop and drool over the titanium, it's probably not on anyone's radar.

[rbtmcardle]

My local shop is so Trek centric that the essentially only stock trek/Bontrager. Even down to wheels, tires, bottle cages.. I suspect but have no knowledge that trek really pressures the shops to be all in, I'd bet they do that primarily in a financial way.. Either by financing the inventory or by offering deeper discounts to do so.

For the people in my area, it pretty much sucks, there isn't a decent shop within a 45 min drive. I suspect that this kind of shop isn't the target for Serotta, I am thinking they will target the smaller specialty shop that.

I still believe the way to make Serottas sell, is through a discount program for shops/ shop employees..get the sales force on board and they will naturally sell it provided the price is reasonable.. They don't have to be the least expensive, just close. The same merchandise is sold at Target as they sell at Walmart, yet they can charge slightly higher prices..

[Ti Designs]

The old saying "if you build a better mouse trap the world will beat a path to your door" doesn't work in the cycling industry. I've been at my shop for over 25 years, I've seen a number of builders try to cut out the shop and go direct to the consumer. This may work for an individual builder with a very low output of units, for a factory it's a sales disaster.

For Serotta to get back into the shops and move bikes, they need to find two things. First, they need to figure out how their bikes stand out to a large percentage of the market. Their business model of small shops in NY and CT selling ultra expensive bikes to Wall Street types on their lunch break hasn't worked out so well. Competing with Trek and Specialized on making "the best bike in the world" hasn't worked out for many reasons. First there's the R&D, did Serotta spend 1% of what Specialized did? Are there countless pro racers on Serottas? (and that's not all they're on) Picking on the big brands on their home turf was a dumb idea, and a bad investment. Serotta should go back, figure out where they have an opening in the market, where the market is hot, and direct the majority of their effort in that direction. It's hard not to notice the sales numbers of the Specialized Roubaix, the Trek Domane and others like it. Do they really ride better than a Fierte? I can't help but think that ride quality is one of the few cards Serotta still holds, it's time to play it. Let me make my point another way - would anyone like to sell me their DKS? Didn't think so...

The second thing you need in any shop is a sales staff that wants to sell your bike. I can't stress this enough, good bikes collect dust if there's nobody to sell them, being on the sales floor is not enough. We have two 51cm Serotta frames hanging off our wall, an HSG Carbon and an Ottrott. I can't think of two better riding bikes at any price (they both have sale tags on them), and last I checked there was about 1/4" of dust on both of them... Keeping the sales staff at any shop engaged takes a lot of effort over time, it's not just a one time thing.

[oldpotatoe]

Man, you start a new job and get distracted and not log in for awhile and things get crazy here. Anyway Rustylion replaced Howard Berkowitz in a pretty fast move, don't know why and don't care why, seems both men were up to the task at hand with Rusty having a better understanding of the Serotta brand due to his racing background. I wish him and Ben Serotta nothing but good sucess.

Unfortunately the game has changed, its starts with the dealers and they are being pressured to carry one of the big three or four. Trek, Specialized, C Dale and Giant. I don't think a shop or at least my local shops can afford anymore to stock boutique brand custom bikes on their floor that don't sell. Thinking that you can resurrect the brand by just cleaning up your prices and models is fine but who's going to sell them anymore. Sure shops will sell you a custom here and there BUT they won't stock the brand and make the commitment to moving a custom line. I for one would like to hear more from shop guys that can add to this point of view. I already know what Old Potatoe will say but I also know what the Washington Metro area shops do and what my old dealers have to say on this subject. They need to TURN inventory and custom brands do sit on the showroom floor taking up space and costing money. The solution for guys like Serotta as well Parlee and Seven is not easy anymore. Guys like Bedford sells through shops with no stocking commitment and shops like that, I recon others like Moots do the same maybe??

Well, there is inventory to turn and there is a requirement to have a demo bike to test ride. few if any new customers choose to buy such a big ticket item w/o at least trying it out for a short time..many ride the demos more than once.

Frame makers that do well don't change their models every year either. A demo Moots from last year = a demo Moots for 2013. May have to upgrade components but the subjective ride evaluation doesn't really depend on the type of shifters on the bike.

Chicken or egg...a brand that sells because of the dealer network or the frame sells and needs a dealer network. Regardless, the manufacturer has to take care of it's first customer, the bike shop, before the bike shop will 'sell' the brand.

And the product has to be attractive, deliver what it says it will, accesible, reliable, priced competitively. When somebody test rides frame A, frame sells for $3000, then test rides frame B, has all sorts of tube manipulation, and is $1500 more but the customer can't really tell the difference in the test ride...well. Often the customer also buys the bike shop, along with the product.

Remember, only 2 things can be measured at a bike shop, price and weight.

I used to sell Serotta at Morgul-Bismark. Sold a lot of them, had demo bikes, easy to sell. I also sold them at ProPeloton. When I was running service there, we were the number one Serotta dealer in the nation(about 1997 or so). Then came high prices, then came high requirements from serotta, then came mistakes and long delays...and then came the customer buying a Moots or to Merckx.
The people at serotta need to ask the present owner at ProPeloton why they dropped serotta about 3 years ago.

So, if ya sell a lot of something, you can afford to have a lot of demo bikes, people try that bike, like it, buy it...you make sure you have that demo on the floor. Long term commitment, long term relationship between manufacturer and bike shop-only helps the end user.

Selling direct in a bike shop's area is a sure way for the bike shop to say adios to that frame maker. OR opening a competing bike shop 20 blocks away.

I have been asked why don't I sell Serotta. See above, ask Ben, I'm sure he remembers 2004/5, our meeting at interbike and the next 6 weeks. Sorry, will never sell serotta.

BUT I do so very well with Moots and Waterford. They take care of me, I take care of them and the customers. They deliver, they don't make mistakes, they are priced very competitively, their margin is great, they make exceptional frames in a very competitive market....I own a Moots and Waterford, personal bikes. Have a bike shop owner ride what he sells speaks volumes. etc. etc.

[MattTuck]

one problem without a dealer network, that i see here in 2012 is that the younger generation, and i mean under 40, lots have NEVER seen a Serotta in the metal.



This is true of many custom builders. I'm not sure it is restraining people from purchasing when they feel a connection to a particular frame builder.

With the internet the way it is today and telephone and email, you can develop a pretty intimate relationship with a builder and his brand without seeing their frames in person. I've seen neither a Kirk nor a Hampsten in person, and those will be my first two customs.

I take that back, I've seen a Kirk because I visited Dave's workshop. But those are kind of like going to the zoo, they're in captivity. I've never seen one in the wild.

[oldpotatoe]

This is true of many custom builders. I'm not sure it is restraining people from purchasing when they feel a connection to a particular frame builder.

With the internet the way it is today and telephone and email, you can develop a pretty intimate relationship with a builder and his brand without seeing their frames in person. I've seen neither a Kirk nor a Hampsten in person, and those will be my first two customs.

I take that back, I've seen a Kirk because I visited Dave's workshop. But those are kind of like going to the zoo, they're in captivity. I've never seen one in the wild.

I think you need to make the distinction between a small custom builder and the mid sized, dealer supported, frame makers.

PLUS Hampsten really doesn't 'make' any of their frames.

For a frame maker that wants to be in the 1000 frames+ range, they have to have a dealer network, IMHO.

I don't know of any frame maker who manufacturers 1000 plus or minus frames per year that does so direct sales only.

[KeithNYC]

I think you need to make the distinction between a small custom builder and the mid sized, dealer supported, frame makers.

PLUS Hampsten really doesn't 'make' any of their frames.

For a frame maker that wants to be in the 1000 frames+ range, they have to have a dealer network, IMHO.

I don't know of any frame maker who manufacturers 1000 plus or minus frames per year that does so direct sales only.

This is wholly incorrect. Everything is in-house now.

[phcollard]

PLUS Hampsten really doesn't 'make' any of their frames.


What do you mean? They're all welded in Steve's workshop now.

[oldpotatoe]

What do you mean? They're all welded in Steve's workshop now.

My face, didn't know that...good for him. I see Andy lots, just last week, he didn't mention it.

Gonna sell this as soon as he brings it in

http://www.extravirginoilco.com/

[HenryA]

snipped a bunch......

BUT I do so very well with Moots and Waterford. They take care of me, I take care of them and the customers. They deliver, they don't make mistakes, they are priced very competitively, their margin is great, they make exceptional frames in a very competitive market....I own a Moots and Waterford, personal bikes. Have a bike shop owner ride what he sells speaks volumes. etc. etc.

This is vitally important for a brand like Serotta, restated as:

1. Excellent relations with dealers and customers.

2. Dealers riding the brand.

Not the only factors involved but certainly two of the most important.

[SamIAm]

http://www.extravirginoilco.com/

That stuff is the best. Every time I serve it to guests, they are wowed. We go through gallons of this per year.

[jr59]

Well, I have a saying, that goes like this;

It's very easy to say,"this is a problem".

It's not so easy to define how to fix said problem.

Between the above saying and everyone here willing to risk someone else money, we sure get a lot of answers to how to fix the problems @ Serotta!


I hope Bill and Ben have a set plan. I want them to become a brand that everyone wants to own again. I have no idea how to get to that point and still make a long term profit. I just hope and pray that they do!

[Fishbike]

I don't really know anything about the bike business. But I find these ruminations fascinating because so many of the principles discussed are applicable to other business.

[gavingould]

i work part time in a shop. we don't deal any of the Big Four (spec/trek/cannon/giant) and we do have a couple boutique brands we sell fairly regularly (IF, Lynskey)

we don't have any floor stock of the IndyFab or Lynskey, we do have one Cielo that's been hanging out for a few months. a couple of shop employees have had demo Lynskeys, we show those. shop owner has a couple IndyFabs, we show those. We have had a couple different Alchemy bikes come through to be shown for a while as well, but again, no stock.

most cyclists who are aware that custom exists, are willing to make the commitment to go through the process, can afford it, etc are well aware of what's out there.

[John H.]

I work for a small coaching/fitting business that has a retail aspect.
We sell custom bikes- usually when we fit someone and find out that their current bike is not a good fit for them and there are no other stock bikes that fit them well. We have good relationships with local bike shops and definately like to steer customers in that direction.
But, like I said we do sell custom bikes when that is a customers best option (and they want to go that route).
We explored Serotta this spring- but it did not make sense for us. The buy-in was too high, and it would have been floor stock.
If Serotta would let us order as we sold, we would probably sell some custom bikes for them.
I also agree with one of the earlier posts that said "shops and employees need to be behind the bikes". They tend to sell what they ride. In 2004-5 I worked for a Serotta dealer. At that time Serotta offered pretty insane deals for employees on frames. I remember getting a custom Legend Ti for about $1500.

[Ahneida Ride]

Another issue is that Serotta has a substantial monthly overhead.

This certainly colors the decision process.

[echelon_john]

What Ray said.

It's important to remember that Serotta is not a framebuilder. It's a company with substantial (relatively speaking) assets—and the debt and overhead that go along with them. If Ben Serotta wanted to build frames for a living, I have no doubt that he could be as busy as he likes. But that's clearly not where his interests, capabilities, or financial situation lies.

He never put 'keeping the overhead low' high on his list of priorities. That's fine--he certainly put 'keeping the quality high' at the top of his list for a long time. But now that there's plenty of quality out there for plenty less money, he/Serotta Bicycles is kind of screwed.

It's hard to go back to being a one-three person shop when you've been a 20 person company. Especially when you're fifty something (?) years old, have a few mortgages, bills to pay, etc.



Another issue is that Serotta has a substantial monthly overhead.

This certainly colors the decision process.

[nighthawk]

Adaptation for survival. They just have to find their niche.

[slidey]

Allow me to bring in a different perspective, specifically motivated by AngryScientist's first post.

I represent the group he's talking about: under 40, never seen a serotta in the metal. What's more, I have no desire to really ever purchase a Serotta brand-new, and I have 3 Merckx's (all of them near NOS quality) so I know and cherish vintage brands as well! For all the lavish praise of the ride quality of a Serotta, in my view, it's purely an over-priced bike which seems to specifically "want" to cater to the Masters' pleasure rider. There are a lot of middle-aged riders that I ride with, all of them are pretty fast weekend warriors...I get the "feeling" that none of them would be caught dead on a Serotta, although I've never asked. The reason why I say so is because they ride expensive carbon bikes with a race/marketing pedigree. There's no racing pedigree associated to Serotta, in terms of famous rides, or race wins, etc...or at least, nothing that I know of. Clearly, Serotta can never be a Specialized but, it can try portraying itself as a younger, sportier brand. Of course, my view is skewed by mixing with riders who are competitive but then again which other niche group of people amongst us would be willing to invest so much into a bike which they want to just ride around in. Clearly, there are a lot of Serotta lovers on here, but I don't think this forum represents the entire gamut of the bicycling public.

[beeatnik]

The Old Guys
Only see Serottas on the bike paths/trails. Older gentlemen who have been in the game for years and prefer to ride solo. They are "lifetime bike" consumers. The kind of guys who upgraded to 10s this year but wouldn't think of a frame upgrade (bb30 what?). The kind of guys with portfolios that the companies that advertise on golf telecasts lust after. The kind of guys who know the value of a buck.

The Young Guys
People I know who ride Serottas are young guys. A lot of guys who got into cycling on fixed gear bikes. Guys who kept trading up (conversion then Felt track frame then NJS frame then boutique frame) until they realized the best trade up would be a geared bike. These guys dig Serottas . But they dig the history and the lore more than the current image. They like the steel Serottas. They buy used Serottas. They will probably never buy a new one.

The Fast Group Ride Guys.
Have never seen a Serotta here.

[staggerwing]

Adaptation for survival. They just have to find their niche.

Problem is, for some time they owned the niche, lock, stock and barrel. Capable competition emerged, target moved, and they started zagging while everyone else was zigging.

Going to be much tougher to regain high ground the second time around. Will be impossible if they can't simplify the line, contain costs and bring the price of acquisition into range mere mortals will consider. Not to mention reestablish good will and excitement among dealers; not of few of which were given the short end of the stick.

[FlashUNC]

There's no racing pedigree associated to Serotta, in terms of famous rides, or race wins, etc...or at least, nothing that I know of.

Isn't meant as a ding on you at all, but Serotta has buckets full of racing heritage. Heck, for the 80's, you could argue they were U.S. race bikes in the pro peloton. Yeah, the badging was another company, but the bikes were Serottas.

But to your point, the company has done a really bad job of connecting with that past. In the pursuit of new technology, they've not kept that vital connection to their past glories. There's a reason they can put the world championship stripes on the seat-tube sticker.

So even as kid in terms of their customer base (early 30's), I'm the kind of guy they should be connecting with. Young, professional, with disposable income and an unhealthy obsession with the sport and its past. (I tend to think cycling style and panache peaked about 1984.)

[MadRocketSci]

re: serotta = rich old guy bike....the pics of john kerry and conan o'brien on faster-backwards serottas didn't help...

[nighthawk]

I might seem overly optimistic... But really I would just rather see them come back and do well, versus having The Big Three continue to dominate the market. I'm not suggesting that Serotta can compete with them, but I think there's a place for them, somewhere between the one man operations and the outsourced production brands. The cycling landscape without Serotta in it is a bleak one to me.

That being said... Looking at the recent trajectory of the company, they are probably discussing sponsorship with Lance.

[christian]

Isn't meant as a ding on you at all, but Serotta has buckets full of racing heritage. Heck, for the 80's, you could argue they were U.S. race bikes in the pro peloton. Yeah, the badging was another company, but the bikes were Serottas.
http://www.elephantbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/about_page_ww.jpg

[CunegoFan]

I think all this talk of racing sounds like generals planning to fight the last war. The cycling demographic has changed. The growth in the sport has come from middle agers who don't race, have never raced, and never will race. Their connection to racing is watching Tour de France coverage. These are Cat 6 Walter Mitty racers or Cat 7 Strava racers.

There is a tendency for new riders to turn into tech geeks. They think they can buy speed. But after a few years it becomes apparent that most people fall close to average and what determines how fast you are is how many hours you ride, how much you are willing to suffer, and how smart you train. The bike has nothing to do with it. There is a big market of riders who got into the sport in the last ten years and are now coming to that realization. They need to be shown that a "nice" bike can mean something other than a carbon frame popped out of mold in China with a higher price slapped on it than the other frames popped out of molds.

It seems to me that the market is already moving away from the pure racing bike. Head tubes are getting taller. Compact cranks are now standard. Bikes are shifting toward what is comfortable for forty year olds instead of twenty year olds, usually in a way so that people can still pretend that it's a race bike. There has to be a way to take advantage of the aging fitness rider market. That is where the money is.

[slidey]

I hear you, and thanks for bringing that to my notice. I've always looked upon Serotta as a rather vanilla (not the brand, which btw I think is actually pretty cool) brand.

As you mentioned, they need to connect with their glorious past in a fair-handed manner.

Isn't meant as a ding on you at all, but Serotta has buckets full of racing heritage. Heck, for the 80's, you could argue they were U.S. race bikes in the pro peloton. Yeah, the badging was another company, but the bikes were Serottas.

But to your point, the company has done a really bad job of connecting with that past. In the pursuit of new technology, they've not kept that vital connection to their past glories. There's a reason they can put the world championship stripes on the seat-tube sticker.

So even as kid in terms of their customer base (early 30's), I'm the kind of guy they should be connecting with. Young, professional, with disposable income and an unhealthy obsession with the sport and its past. (I tend to think cycling style and panache peaked about 1984.)

There are other ways of going about it too...for eg, cheesy acronyms like Specialized FACT carbon, C'Dale HI-MOD something, Trek OCLV something, etc are a handy marketing gimmick. It tells the customer that the company is constantly innovating, and is striving for perfection or at the very least isn't resting on its laurels. The faithful customers don't need this...but these buzzwords are what draws the attention of a newer customer to a brand. What keeps a customer though, doesn't seem to be a problem for Serotta...as most of you claim.

[FlashUNC]

http://www.elephantbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/about_page_ww.jpg

Totally forgot about them!

[majorpat]

I'll say it, Armstrong's 1999 Tour win killed Serotta while simultaneously saving Trek-alized-dale.

Here's what I mean. Prior to 1999, welders were required to make bikes. Best welders made bikes that were own brand and re- badged. After '99, carbon mass produced bikes are seen as winners. No welders needed for these bikes, though lots of materials technology.

After '99, HOLY CRAP! The second bike boom and everyone wants to be Lance. Some choose big brands, volume goes up and prices stabilize. Some rich guys abandon golf and go for custom, or brands with more cache. The era of the "dentist" bike (or at least the perception) is upon us. Serotta fills a need, its young, spawned off the main body become competition. Others enter the custom land of metal bikes. Fewer Serottas in races and club rides and certainly no more in the biggest show, under the butts of the biggest names. Newer generation doesn't know about Tour bikes under 7-11, Olympic road race win etc. so no longer on the new kids radar. Older crowd now lusts for Kirk, Bedford, Indy Fab, dare I say Sacha and more. Sadly, no more affordable steel Serottas available for regular Joes or new kids who have the proper mentors. I hope they succeed, they need to define the mission, whatever it ends up being, and go hard for it.

Despite this tale of woe, there is still a place for the "builder of trust" if folks give them a try. Consider Dario, Della Santa, Sachs and others. I once owned a steel Fierte, I'd love a Legend but at this juncture in my life with kids and such; I ordered a Rock Lobster.

Best of luck to Serotta, still a bike of dreams and glory for me since I saw one hanging in the shop in 1986 and the heard about it rolling along the roads of far off France.

[slidey]

You make a great point, and I agree with you in that the growth in the sport is from the middle (agers), people with disposable incomes with an intent to maintain a healthy lifestyle. However, if you have rightly classified them as Cat 6/Cat7 (which I think represents only part of the Masters), then they too are looking for technology that they can relate to, as they have that competitive spirit in them. As I said earlier, Serotta is doing little by way of marketing itself to this category. If however, they don't fall in the Cat6/7, and aren't aware of Serotta, I don't see anything eye-popping out there that might swing their mind in favour of the Serotta. I've bumped into many of these people at various bike shops when I go into buy some stuff, etc. They are often the ones who are the most gullible to the sales pitch of the respective LBS - I actually stopped going to one LBS because I couldn't stand the marketing drivel he would start spewing when faced by a wealthy newbie. And since, there are fewer and fewer LBS' carrying Serotta's (can't think of any in my area), they're never exposed to the Serotta sales pitch.

I think all this talk of racing sounds like generals planning to fight the last war. The cycling demographic has changed. The growth in the sport has come from middle agers who don't race, have never raced, and never will race. Their connection to racing is watching Tour de France coverage. These are Cat 6 Walter Mitty racers or Cat 7 Strava racers.

There is a tendency for new riders to turn into tech geeks. They think they can buy speed. But after a few years it becomes apparent that most people fall close to average and what determines how fast you are is how many hours you ride, how much you are willing to suffer, and how smart you train. The bike has nothing to do with it. There is a big market of riders who got into the sport in the last ten years and are now coming to that realization. They need to be shown that a "nice" bike can mean something other than a carbon frame popped out of mold in China with a higher price slapped on it than the other frames popped out of molds.

It seems to me that the market is already moving away from the pure racing bike. Head tubes are getting taller. Compact cranks are now standard. Bikes are shifting toward what is comfortable for forty year olds instead of twenty year olds, usually in a way so that people can still pretend that it's a race bike. There has to be a way to take advantage of the aging fitness rider market. That is where the money is.

[FootWorksCycles]

Unfortunately the game has changed, its starts with the dealers and they are being pressured to carry one of the big three or four. Trek, Specialized, C Dale and Giant. I don't think a shop or at least my local shops can afford anymore to stock boutique brand custom bikes on their floor that don't sell. Thinking that you can resurrect the brand by just cleaning up your prices and models is fine but who's going to sell them anymore. Sure shops will sell you a custom here and there BUT they won't stock the brand and make the commitment to moving a custom line.

Who's going to sell Serotta? Good question. And hopefully they continue to grow with the model like mine - The Bike Fitting Studio. I am not a full on LBS. I do not have a full service department open to the public. What I do have is a 100% one client at a time studio dedicated to the ultimate in customer service. When I am with a client I do not answer the phone. I do not get distracted by another customer purchasing a $4 tube or water bottle. You come in to spend $5000 or more, you are going to get 100% dedicated attention.

And, with that model, I do not need to stock a bunch of bikes. I do not care what Spec/Trek/C'dale/Giant do. My goal is to provide my clients with best service, best fit, and best product on the market. My clients do not fit the normal mold of bike customer. And, Serotta does not fit the typical mass produced bike mold.

Hopefully a handful of us smaller dedicated and highly specialized dealers can provide the outlet that Serotta needs. I know that I can.

[oldpotatoe]

Who's going to sell Serotta? Good question. And hopefully they continue to grow with the model like mine - The Bike Fitting Studio. I am not a full on LBS. I do not have a full service department open to the public. What I do have is a 100% one client at a time studio dedicated to the ultimate in customer service. When I am with a client I do not answer the phone. I do not get distracted by another customer purchasing a $4 tube or water bottle. You come in to spend $5000 or more, you are going to get 100% dedicated attention.

And, with that model, I do not need to stock a bunch of bikes. I do not care what Spec/Trek/C'dale/Giant do. My goal is to provide my clients with best service, best fit, and best product on the market. My clients do not fit the normal mold of bike customer. And, Serotta does not fit the typical mass produced bike mold.


Hopefully a handful of us smaller dedicated and highly specialized dealers can provide the outlet that Serotta needs. I know that I can.

So you do service on the bicycles you sell? When the thing needs a tune, you are equipped to do it?

Serotta only?

I think you do what a lot of small, boutique shops do. Like Above Category in Mill Valley. As long as you don't step on an existing dealer, fine idea.

Not really different from what I do either. Do a fit, order a frame and build it here.

[echelon_john]

The downside of this model is that it's what has led to the 'faster backwards' examples of Serottas that defy any semblance of a central design philosophy or aesthetic. Not implying you don't know how to fit a bike, but if I were a manufacturer that would be my concern.

Who's going to sell Serotta? Good question. And hopefully they continue to grow with the model like mine - The Bike Fitting Studio. I am not a full on LBS. I do not have a full service department open to the public. What I do have is a 100% one client at a time studio dedicated to the ultimate in customer service. When I am with a client I do not answer the phone. I do not get distracted by another customer purchasing a $4 tube or water bottle. You come in to spend $5000 or more, you are going to get 100% dedicated attention.

And, with that model, I do not need to stock a bunch of bikes. I do not care what Spec/Trek/C'dale/Giant do. My goal is to provide my clients with best service, best fit, and best product on the market. My clients do not fit the normal mold of bike customer. And, Serotta does not fit the typical mass produced bike mold.

Hopefully a handful of us smaller dedicated and highly specialized dealers can provide the outlet that Serotta needs. I know that I can.

[jr59]

Who's going to sell Serotta? Good question. And hopefully they continue to grow with the model like mine - The Bike Fitting Studio. I am not a full on LBS. I do not have a full service department open to the public. What I do have is a 100% one client at a time studio dedicated to the ultimate in customer service. When I am with a client I do not answer the phone. I do not get distracted by another customer purchasing a $4 tube or water bottle. You come in to spend $5000 or more, you are going to get 100% dedicated attention.

And, with that model, I do not need to stock a bunch of bikes. I do not care what Spec/Trek/C'dale/Giant do. My goal is to provide my clients with best service, best fit, and best product on the market. My clients do not fit the normal mold of bike customer. And, Serotta does not fit the typical mass produced bike mold.

Hopefully a handful of us smaller dedicated and highly specialized dealers can provide the outlet that Serotta needs. I know that I can.

If this works for you; That's GREAT! More power to you.

I don't think it's worked from Serotta's stand point. If it did, they wouldn't be selling stock frames. In fact, If Serotta goes under, you just move on to another frame maker. Like I said, if it works for you.

I have no inside info at all, but I would guess that Serotta is going to try to go direct instead of thru dealers. Isort of hope that doesn't happen, but, whatever.

I think that without a BUNCH of millions spent, Serotta is lost. Trying to gain market share is not easy. I think it could be done, but at what cost? When does it become a money black hole. Where you pour cash without return.

I think the old saying about how to become a millionaire comes into play.

"Take 2 million and open a bike shop. Instant millionaire." only like 10 fold with a bike company!

Sort of hope I am wrong!

[slidey]

From a customer's perspective, me being a semi-competitive rider who hasn't ever bought a Serotta, if there were shops like yours in my town I'm reasonably sure I would be compelled to pledge to myself to never buy one. In my mind, a dealer represents the brand. In this case when it's a smaller co like Serotta tying up with a dealer so far off the usual path that begs attention - I think it makes Serotta look even more elitist, if that's possible.

Who's going to sell Serotta? Good question. And hopefully they continue to grow with the model like mine - The Bike Fitting Studio. I am not a full on LBS. I do not have a full service department open to the public. What I do have is a 100% one client at a time studio dedicated to the ultimate in customer service. When I am with a client I do not answer the phone. I do not get distracted by another customer purchasing a $4 tube or water bottle. You come in to spend $5000 or more, you are going to get 100% dedicated attention.

And, with that model, I do not need to stock a bunch of bikes. I do not care what Spec/Trek/C'dale/Giant do. My goal is to provide my clients with best service, best fit, and best product on the market. My clients do not fit the normal mold of bike customer. And, Serotta does not fit the typical mass produced bike mold.

Hopefully a handful of us smaller dedicated and highly specialized dealers can provide the outlet that Serotta needs. I know that I can.

[rnhood]

Footworkscycle's model will work if the price of a Serotta isn't out of bounds. There is a lot to be said of very personalized attention, especially when its accompanied by deep knowledge and experience, of which attributes I suspect he has the bases covered. The service industry in America is the industry where opportunity remains high....and the pay-off is decent for those that dedicate themselves.

Everyone is aware that Serotta can make a high quality bike. They just need to price competitively, continue evolving their models in the popular racing/road bike venue today, and use some type of dealer network....the Footworkscycle model or other. I just can't see them making on a direct model.

[jds108]

Who's going to sell Serotta? Good question. And hopefully they continue to grow with the model like mine - The Bike Fitting Studio. I am not a full on LBS. I do not have a full service department open to the public. What I do have is a 100% one client at a time studio dedicated to the ultimate in customer service. When I am with a client I do not answer the phone. I do not get distracted by another customer purchasing a $4 tube or water bottle. You come in to spend $5000 or more, you are going to get 100% dedicated attention.

And, with that model, I do not need to stock a bunch of bikes. I do not care what Spec/Trek/C'dale/Giant do. My goal is to provide my clients with best service, best fit, and best product on the market. My clients do not fit the normal mold of bike customer. And, Serotta does not fit the typical mass produced bike mold.

Hopefully a handful of us smaller dedicated and highly specialized dealers can provide the outlet that Serotta needs. I know that I can.

Makes sense to me, although I'm with Old Potato in the hopes that you'd be servicing them too. I'd hate to buy a big $ bike then have to take it somewhere else if I was looking for service. I wouldn't buy a new bike from a local business if they couldn't service it - I'd be worried about some other shop screwing it up when it came time for service.

It does seem logical that high dollar frame is purchased in an environment where a high level of service is the norm. Both during the purchase and afterwards.

I guess this is all speculation though since my most expensive brand new frame purchase was done over the internet. I already knew what size I wanted, so I was just shopping on price. Guess that puts me at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Now if Serotta is going to sell direct, as a customer that's an awful lot like buying from any mail order place. They're going to have to be competitive (or better) on price if they go that route.

[bikinchris]

BUT I do so very well with Moots and Waterford. They take care of me, I take care of them and the customers. They deliver, they don't make mistakes, they are priced very competitively, their margin is great, they make exceptional frames in a very competitive market....I own a Moots and Waterford, personal bikes. Have a bike shop owner ride what he sells speaks volumes. etc. etc.

+1 Waterford is a first class company to deal with. Also Indy Fab.

[bikinchris]

Isn't meant as a ding on you at all, but Serotta has buckets full of racing heritage. Heck, for the 80's, you could argue they were U.S. race bikes in the pro peloton. Yeah, the badging was another company, but the bikes were Serottas.


They had the ride people wanted even to the point of racers buying Serottas for themselves and placing their sponsors name on it. Case in point; 1996 Olympic road race.

[FootWorksCycles]

Makes sense to me, although I'm with Old Potato in the hopes that you'd be servicing them too. I'd hate to buy a big $ bike then have to take it somewhere else if I was looking for service. I wouldn't buy a new bike from a local business if they couldn't service it - I'd be worried about some other shop screwing it up when it came time for service.

They're going to have to be competitive (or better) on price if they go that route.

I do service the bikes that my customers purchase from me. I do not service bikes from the masses. My customers make appointments with their bikes, and I have been known to pick their bikes up and return to them too. Like I said earlier, its all about the customer service.

About Serotta and dealer direct... I know its something they have been tossing around. But, I don't mind b/c chances are buyers will still come to me since they have to get fitted anyways.

[oldpotatoe]

I do service the bikes that my customers purchase from me. I do not service bikes from the masses. My customers make appointments with their bikes, and I have been known to pick their bikes up and return to them too. Like I said earlier, its all about the customer service.

About Serotta and dealer direct... I know its something they have been tossing around. But, I don't mind b/c chances are buyers will still come to me since they have to get fitted anyways.

Or get fitted and then buy direct. Or get fitted and buy from the Serotta down the street. Or get fitted and buy the Moots....

I think serotta has to decide what they want to be. Direct, bike shop, combo, something else. Picking one will be detrimantal to something else. Not being direct will hurt serotta's margin, I think why they are 'tossing it around'.

Gotta hand it to you, a way to be kinda a bike shop, still get wholesale product, have much less overhead than a more traditional bike shop. If serotta goes belly up, do you choose another manufacturer? Or do you deal with other frame makers?

[jr59]

Or get fitted and then buy direct. Or get fitted and buy from the Serotta down the street. Or get fitted and buy the Moots....

I think serotta has to decide what they want to be. Direct, bike shop, combo, something else. Picking one will be detrimantal to something else. Not being direct will hurt serotta's margin, I think why they are 'tossing it around'.


agree with this

[HenryA]

Purely direct and Serotta dies a fairly fast and merciful death, or becomes a three man small shop if they survive at all.

The model needed is a variation on "all of the above" - meaning that they need some presence in retail locations, without over burdening the retailer's cash, they need fitting and custom sales from local dealers, they need a face presented to the public at those dealers that is congruent with their market position. Which oughta be, atmo, "the bike you buy when you know more than most folks and want something a bit (or a lot) better". Serotta will NEVER compete with an Asian slave labor produced $3,000 "race bike". the folks buying those are by and large not Serotta customers. Not yet, but they might be later.

A larger shop that sells the big commodity Chinese made brands, Trek, Spec, Giant, etc. can make a go with Serotta if the shop guys are on Serottas and there is some belief and evangelism in the shop. Without that its just back to selling bikes out of boxes for those stores. And the Serottas are off in a corner gathering dust. BOOB (bikes out of boxes) is a proven, viable business model. But its not the only way. Thank goodness.

Serotta is (maybe WAS, 'cause right now I think they are just being saved from the dead and I don't think their heartbeat is stable yet) in a no man's land between major brands and one man boutique makers. Its an unusual place and requires cunning to work around the big guys to get in the niches that suit Serotta and by not trying to occupy the niches of tiny makers with long waits and one on one building.

They need about 50 dealers across the U.S. who will do the evangelist thing and a like number or so small boutiques like FootWorksCycles who will carry the flag for them and present the correct face to the customer base.

A line of truly excellent stock bikes at reasonable prices, followed on with any kind of excellent custom work the customer is willing to pay for. All wrapped up in an aura of excellent customer relations (customers being the riders AND the shops) is the answer I see for them.

Part of that involves a consistent dealer commitment. In the last 10 years they seem to have changed the dealer program like underwear - everyday. That is super disruptive to a continuing relationship and it needs to stop - NOW. "hey honey I I just got a new girl friend today!" - figure how that'd work at your house.... Serotta needs to adopt a rational plan and stick to it so their dealers can make plans on that plan and know what to plan for themselves.

I've written this a little quick and rough, and there could be lots more to flesh it all out, because I really didn't intend to do it at all but here it is. Its a simple model but it requires exquisite execution and laser focus.

[FootWorksCycles]

Or get fitted and then buy direct. Or get fitted and buy from the Serotta down the street. Or get fitted and buy the Moots....

I think serotta has to decide what they want to be. Direct, bike shop, combo, something else. Picking one will be detrimantal to something else. Not being direct will hurt serotta's margin, I think why they are 'tossing it around'.

Gotta hand it to you, a way to be kinda a bike shop, still get wholesale product, have much less overhead than a more traditional bike shop. If serotta goes belly up, do you choose another manufacturer? Or do you deal with other frame makers?

Totally agree with you. My clients can go down the street get whatever bike they want. If they want a Serotta I will happily get them that. If they want another brand I will do a fitting, charge for it and help them get set up with another shop. I did this a for a client who wanted a Firefly (which turned out to be really sweet).

Serotta can not go completely dealer direct. It's just not possible with their model. Building the best fitting custom bike requires a fit ahead of time, so dealers need to be in the loop. If Serotta goes belly up I may decide to look for another brand to rep, but I hope I do not have to. I truly believe that Serotta and Co. make the best fitting and riding bike.

[jr59]

Purely direct and Serotta dies a fairly fast and merciful death, or becomes a three man small shop if they survive at all.

The model needed is a variation on "all of the above" - meaning that they need some presence in retail locations, without over burdening the retailer's cash, they need fitting and custom sales from local dealers, they need a face presented to the public at those dealers that is congruent with their market position. Which oughta be, atmo, "the bike you buy when you know more than most folks and want something a bit (or a lot) better". Serotta will NEVER compete with an Asian slave labor produced $3,000 "race bike". the folks buying those are by and large not Serotta customers. Not yet, but they might be later.

A larger shop that sells the big commodity Chinese made brands, Trek, Spec, Giant, etc. can make a go with Serotta if the shop guys are on Serottas and there is some belief and evangelism in the shop. Without that its just back to selling bikes out of boxes for those stores. And the Serottas are off in a corner gathering dust. BOOB (bikes out of boxes) is a proven, viable business model. But its not the only way. Thank goodness.

Serotta is (maybe WAS, 'cause right now I think they are just being saved from the dead and I don't think their heartbeat is stable yet) in a no man's land between major brands and one man boutique makers. Its an unusual place and requires cunning to work around the big guys to get in the niches that suit Serotta and by not trying to occupy the niches of tiny makers with long waits and one on one building.

They need about 50 dealers across the U.S. who will do the evangelist thing and a like number or so small boutiques like FootWorksCycles who will carry the flag for them and present the correct face to the customer base.

A line of truly excellent stock bikes at reasonable prices, followed on with any kind of excellent custom work the customer is willing to pay for. All wrapped up in an aura of excellent customer relations (customers being the riders AND the shops) is the answer I see for them.

Part of that involves a consistent dealer commitment. In the last 10 years they seem to have changed the dealer program like underwear - everyday. That is super disruptive to a continuing relationship and it needs to stop - NOW. "hey honey I I just got a new girl friend today!" - figure how that'd work at your house.... Serotta needs to adopt a rational plan and stick to it so their dealers can make plans on that plan and know what to plan for themselves.

I've written this a little quick and rough, and there could be lots more to flesh it all out, because I really didn't intend to do it at all but here it is. Its a simple model but it requires exquisite execution and laser focus.


This is pretty spot on, but the #s don't work.
How many frames will 50 dealers sell? From a co that no one under 45 knows?
Can the sell 2 a week? I think that would be a lot of Serottas. Yet 5500 frames won't provide enough for Serotta to live. And yes, I'm just guessing here.

Some way or another, they need to find their way to a younger market!
But I have no idea how to do that!

I guess we shall see!

[oldpotatoe]

This is pretty spot on, but the #s don't work.
How many frames will 50 dealers sell? From a co that no one under 45 knows?
Can the sell 2 a week? I think that would be a lot of Serottas. Yet 5500 frames won't provide enough for Serotta to live. And yes, I'm just guessing here.

Some way or another, they need to find their way to a younger market!
But I have no idea how to do that!

I guess we shall see!

I agree. I can only speak to Moots and Waterford but those have dealers in the hundreds, like more than 100, less than 200 in the US. AND Moots makes about 1200 frames per year. Same for waterford. So, about 10-15 frames per year per location.

I think there are enough small, boutique, non-trekspecilizedgiantcannondale shops out there to support the brand. If serotta wan't to go toe to toe with the big made in asia carbon brands or against the likes of Parlee, or other carbon brands, turn out the lights now. I think they need to set up a dealer network that does NOT carry the big asian brands. There were 3 serotta dealers in Boulder(YIKES-well, there are 4 specialized dealers). Now there are 2 and they both also sell Specialized...

[HenryA]

Yes, first choice would be shops that don't sell the big brands, but I don't think there are enough of them out there. Also, I'm calling for 100 dealers (could be more but that's my imaginary starting point) 50 big shops and 50 boutique scale shops.

In any event it's gotta be people who are committed to the brand. It's easier to sell BOOB than a Serotta so those who choose the path of least resistance probably ought not be Serotta dealers. And somehow Serotta has to make the decision who their guys are and as important who their guys are not.

Same for deciding who their customers are and are not. Selling blindly into the "X-box" generation toe to toe with the big boys isn't going to happen. When marketing, style and graphics overcome substance, Serotta cannot compete. The big brands own that arena. Serotta's job should be to own the substance market. This does not preclude any demographic, but rather defines another -- sophisticated riders of whatever age, experience and ability who can or will buy a truly fine bike at a price where the dealer and Serotta can make a living selling and servicing the bikes and customers, so they all have a chance of being there next year and on into the future.

[jr59]

Yes, first choice would be shops that don't sell the big brands, but I don't think there are enough of them out there. Also, I'm calling for 100 dealers (could be more but that's my imaginary starting point) 50 big shops and 50 boutique scale shops.

In any event it's gotta be people who are committed to the brand. It's easier to sell BOOB than a Serotta so those who choose the path of least resistance probably ought not be Serotta dealers. And somehow Serotta has to make the decision who their guys are and as important who their guys are not.

Same for deciding who their customers are and are not. Selling blindly into the "X-box" generation toe to toe with the big boys isn't going to happen. When marketing, style and graphics overcome substance, Serotta cannot compete. The big brands own that arena. Serotta's job should be to own the substance market. This does not preclude any demographic, but rather defines another -- sophisticated riders of whatever age, experience and ability who can or will buy a truly fine bike at a price where the dealer and Serotta can make a living selling and servicing the bikes and customers, so they all have a chance of being there next year and on into the future.


This I agree with.

The trick is is finding that niche and having the capital to withstand the years of working to such a goal. Because something like we are discussing will take years, not just a couple. It IMO will take a LONG time and LOT of cash, with VERY little return to do this.

If Bill is ready to make that type of commitment, I have no idea. I can only hope so!

[HenryA]

This I agree with.

The trick is is finding that niche and having the capital to withstand the years of working to such a goal. Because something like we are discussing will take years, not just a couple. It IMO will take a LONG time and LOT of cash, with VERY little return to do this.

If Bill is ready to make that type of commitment, I have no idea. I can only hope so!

Yep, this is no overnight job. It will take commitment and continuous excellence in execution. After all, it didn't run aground overnight, they had to work at it. The economic bubble popping was simply the immediate trigger to the crash, a mountain that suddenly appeared. But they were too close to the ground anyway.

[dumbod]

I teach entrepreneurship at a major NE university and I'm fascinated by Serotta because they have made every classic mistake that artisans make when they try to expand their business.

In my judgement, the problems came when management decided that they wanted to control every aspect of a frame's manufacture. I will accept on faith the argument that Serotta makes a better bike because of this control but it's only marginally better and it's hugely expensive to do so. It nearly destroyed Ford when Henry Ford tried to do it in the 1930s and I suspect that it is at the root of the problems at Serotta. They tried to absorb the expense by raising prices but found that prices were even close to being as inelastic as they thought. The only option is to lower the price and sell lots more bikes.

Henry A is right. There are reasons why there are only successful big bike companies and successful small bike companies but no successful mid-sized companies. It appears that Serotta's overhead structure makes it impossible for them to succeed unless they are a mid-sized bike company but mid-sized companies never succeed.

I hope that they ultimately succeed - I always root for small businesses to succeed but if I were a betting man.....

[avalonracing]

I teach entrepreneurship at a major NE university and I'm fascinated by Serotta because they have made every classic mistake that artisans make when they try to expand their business.

In my judgement, the problems came when management decided that they wanted to control every aspect of a frame's manufacture. I will accept on faith the argument that Serotta makes a better bike because of this control but it's only marginally better and it's hugely expensive to do so. It nearly destroyed Ford when Henry Ford tried to do it in the 1930s and I suspect that it is at the root of the problems at Serotta. They tried to absorb the expense by raising prices but found that prices were even close to being as inelastic as they thought. The only option is to lower the price and sell lots more bikes.

Henry A is right. There are reasons why there are only successful big bike companies and successful small bike companies but no successful mid-sized companies. It appears that Serotta's overhead structure makes it impossible for them to succeed unless they are a mid-sized bike company but mid-sized companies never succeed.

I hope that they ultimately succeed - I always root for small businesses to succeed but if I were a betting man.....

I don't know about how their business is doing but isn't Seven a successful mid-sized bike company?

[CunegoFan]

I don't know about how their business is doing but isn't Seven a successful mid-sized bike company?

Moots, IF, Lynsky, Litespeed before ABG destroyed it...

What about the mountain bike companies like Niner, Turner, Pivot, etc.

[oldpotatoe]

I teach entrepreneurship at a major NE university and I'm fascinated by Serotta because they have made every classic mistake that artisans make when they try to expand their business.

In my judgement, the problems came when management decided that they wanted to control every aspect of a frame's manufacture. I will accept on faith the argument that Serotta makes a better bike because of this control but it's only marginally better and it's hugely expensive to do so. It nearly destroyed Ford when Henry Ford tried to do it in the 1930s and I suspect that it is at the root of the problems at Serotta. They tried to absorb the expense by raising prices but found that prices were even close to being as inelastic as they thought. The only option is to lower the price and sell lots more bikes.

Henry A is right. There are reasons why there are only successful big bike companies and successful small bike companies but no successful mid-sized companies. It appears that Serotta's overhead structure makes it impossible for them to succeed unless they are a mid-sized bike company but mid-sized companies never succeed.

I hope that they ultimately succeed - I always root for small businesses to succeed but if I were a betting man.....

Not sure what you mean by 'mid-sized'...I'm guessing you mean Moots, IF, Seven..etc are 'small'?