I'm perplexed. How do I choose a custom builder?

[jmoore]

I mean seriously? How do you do it? I'm seriously considering a custom frame. Likely a "last bike, no holds barred" type purchase.

Every time I look at a builder site, I see beautiful frames and I think, I'm going with them. Then I look at another site and I change my mind.

One day I think it would be great to work with someone locally that I have worked with before.

The next I think that it would be great to work with someone I've worked with in another capacity.

Then another I think I've lusted after their stuff for years and should go with them.

And yet another day I think that a very highly respected builder has made me an excellent offer and I should go with them.

And to compound all this, I am going to the TX Custom Bicycle Show this weekend, so I'm sure I'll be tempted by multiple builders there.


I know that they will all build me something fantastic. And they are all in roughly the same ballpark, price wise.

So really, how do I choose?

[AngryScientist]

i eagerly look forward to answers here. i have wondered the same thing for a long time. there is so much talent, and so many choices available right now. a good time to be a buyer, IMO.

[rphetteplace]

best flickr page for sure :)

Narrow down what you like to a half dozen then call each of them and have a chat and see who you like.

[nighthawk]

My problem is similar but different... I know who is going to build my next bike, I'm just not sure what kind of bike to have him build. To get at your question though, I would ask if you know what "type" of bike you are after, and then is there anyone out there who does that particularly well. What details about your build do you feel strongly about?

[DRZRM]

I don't think there is a real good answer...except to call Mike Zanconato.
Seriously, local is great if you have good builders near you. Take seriously bad reviews on this site (I mean take bad reviews seriously, I don't know why I didn't say that.) Call a few guys and talk to them, and see who you gel with. When I have some money, I'll next be calling Tyler at Firefly.

[nighthawk]

Narrow down what you like to a half dozen then call each of them and have a chat and see who you like.

And that is really great advice!

[giverdada]

if, of course, you have no limitations, you're screwed.

okay, not really, but you should have something that at least takes a few possibilities away, and then you've got something to work within. what material do you want? there are builders known for their specific abilities with specific materials. what about philosophy? certain builders build certain bikes for certain reasons, and a lot of them are pretty different. aesthetics? the amount of adjustability/specification in your build? are you going to pick the tubeset and angles, or are you sending in a brief measurement sheet of your body and current bike and letting the rest to the builder's expertise and a phone call? and, for people like me at least, there's a price factor. along these lines is the wait factor as well. my frame from carl strong was essentially a gift of extreme proportions (i really am the luckiest guy in the world), but i had already picked carl over a lot of other options because he seemed to be a solid guy who stood behind his product, made beautiful frames that worked really well, and turned the work around in a very reasonable amount of time at an absolutely unparalleled pricepoint. plus, his wife is absolutely lovely and they are a thorough company of real people that does a great job of taking care of customers.

anyway, just some ideas. many builders also have some build request sheets/questionnaires that might help point you in the right direction as to your needs/wants for the build. good luck to you!

[jr59]

Good question.

I can only explain how I did it. It may not work for you.

First decide what type of bike
then what type of fab you would like. tig, lugs, fillet or what ever
Then type of tubes. Steel, Ti, CF, S/S

When you have all that, then start looking at all the bike porn.
All the custom guys sites look good. So you have to know where to start
so to speak.

When you find a bike that you really like the looks of, write it down in a notebook. Don't try this with just 1 piece of paper.

I took my time and about a month to get this far.
After a while you will start to see the differences.

Then I took that list from the top and started looking at just those bikes.
Some I did not like as much as others. I threw them away.
I got it down to about 15 builders that could do what I wanted.

I started a new list and called each one on the phone. BTW: all were very nice, and easy to deal with.
The guys I seemed to hit it off with best, not good but best made the short list.
I went back to their sites and looked again, and cut it down more.
I wound up with about 5, but a couple made it easy on me, with no dealers in the area and not being able to buy one from the factory. (hmmm...Serotta)
So now I am down to 3 and I call them again and talk to them again.
Again all very nice. All could do what I wanted. So delivery played the next factor.

The hardest part was picking the color!

[rnhood]

Face to face meetings always rule. Talk to a couple or three and you will know which to go with. Don't look back.

[maxdog]

Great suggestions above, but at this point having many nice steal, ti and carbon bikes already, I would just call the Jerk (Gaulzetti) and get one of the baddest, hottest, sweetest race bikes available.

[jmoore]

I want a road bike that fits me. I am 6'5" and have never ridden a properly sized bicycle. I have bikes that fit, but no bikes that are the "right size" from an aesthetic standpoint

I want it to be steel.
I want it to have a traditional horizontal top tube.
I want round tubes - no triangle or odd shaped tubing.
I want paint with panels.
I have a couple of nice lugged steel Merckx, so probably TIG or filet brazed just to be different.


My conundrum is that with my saddle business I have done work for several excellent builders. They are all fantastic and highly regarded, so I feel like I should go with one of them. I also know a couple of local builders that are great. They have done paint for me and we talk on a regular basis. Then there are TX locals that are getting excellent press and reviews about their stuff. I think it would be cool to get in on the ground floor with one of those guys.

And then there are guys who build that I have lusted after since I started looking at steel. I have no personal connection to them but I know people with their bikes, often multiple bikes, and they are above reproach. So feeding my youthful lust would be great as well.

There really is a plethora of super high quality stuff available now.

[phcollard]

There are many framebuilders out there who make absolutely stunning frames. I found that the most important step in selecting one was that I really needed to like (love?) the guy. You are going to spend some money, and there could be a lot of back and forth between you and the builder before the order is final. That can be a bit of stress so yeah... good communication, a serious guy but not taking himself too seriously, good sense of humor, must inspire confidence. It's a question of good vibes. That's why I chose Hampsten :)

[eddief]

email each one, ask the date of delivery you can expect, and then choose the 5th one down the list. it's called the crap shoot minus 5 method of choosing a custom frame builder.

[jmoore]

I'm not a super anal retentive guy about the bike. I figure the builder knows what he's doing so I welcome feedback and suggestions on how to make this the best bike possible for my budget. Collaboration is high on the list.

I don't particularly care if it takes 2 months or 8 months to deliver.
I want great paint.
I want something unique and maybe a bit obscure, but a bike person "in the know" would know that it is killer.
Ideally I'd like the frame/fork to be less than $2500 but it could go higher if needed.

[jr59]

I'm not a super anal retentive guy about the bike. I figure the builder knows what he's doing so I welcome feedback and suggestions on how to make this the best bike possible for my budget. Collaboration is high on the list.

I don't particularly care if it takes 2 months or 8 months to deliver.
I want great paint.
I want something unique and maybe a bit obscure, but a bike person "in the know" would know that it is killer.
Ideally I'd like the frame/fork to be less than $2500 but it could go higher if needed.

Then why are you bidding on the big CSI?

Given those things, Dave Kirk is the guy I would call.
I see a fillet brazed teraplane in your future!

[David Kirk]

It is a tough choice to make isn't it?

I am asked this question by potential customers from time to time and I tell them the same thing each time. I think the client first needs to figure out what type of bike they want (material and construction) and then look at builders who specialize in just this niche. You'd be surprised by how many times I've gotten calls from folks looking for a Ti bike and I don't offer Ti......they will say something like "but could you make a Ti bike for me?". No I can't - and why would you want me to?

So once you have the type of bike you want nailed down and a list of builders who specialize in that type of bike then focus your attention on just those builders - the rest no longer matter for this bike. Go to these builder's websites and read through them and see how the general attitude and philosophy of the builder jives with your own. Take a look at their bikes and see if the look of the bikes is what you are looking for. Finally consider how long the builder has been in business and feel out how comfortable you are with this.

Your list should have gotten shorter at this point........ now it's time to contact the finalists. Send them an email or better yet call them. Do they answer your email quickly? Do they take your call and make time for you or offer to call you back at a set time when it fits into both your schedules? If you don't get an email reply or a call back quickly before you give them a deposit it might not be wise to think that it will get better as it goes along.

Talk to the guy - he's a guy just like you - talk to him. Ask questions and listen to the answers. Get a feel for the guy. Are you comfortable talking with him? Do you feel like you understand each other? If not I doubt it will get better once things get rolling. Listen to your gut on this and do not ignore a bad feeling just because the bike looks sweet on the website.

Now your list should be pretty darn short. At this point you will have a few guys who's work you like and whom you have a report with and you really can't go wrong from here on out. Now you just need to listen to your gut and pick the one that feels right.

There are very few certainties in life and one never knows for sure how things will turn out. but if you do your homework you can very strongly stack the deck in your favor and make a good outcome very close to certain.

I hope that helps.

dave

[54ny77]

if the deposit is more than a couple/few hundred bucks, i'd ask them if they're using your deposit to pay for that month's rent or food.

if the answer is no, perhaps take the next step...and ask about the following month's rent or food...

am only half kidding with that suggestion. really.

[Bruce K]

Everyone has their favorites.

You have to find yours.

Reading a bit about their philosophy/ideas on frame building from their websites may help you decide who is "on the same page" with you. To get in the same paragraph will take some phone calls, e-mails, or some face to face time to see if you get a good "vibe" from one builder in particular.

Half the fun is the looking.

BK

[jds108]

if the deposit is more than a couple/few hundred bucks, i'd ask them if they're using your deposit to pay for that month's rent or food.

if the answer is no, perhaps take the next step...and ask about the following month's rent or food...

am only half kidding with that suggestion. really.

Along those lines, once all the fun stuff is worked out, spend a little bit of time thinking about what might happen if things start going poorly... (i.e. is there a contract in place - most likely not - so how much down payment have you given, and thus might lose.) Look up posts about Taylor bicycles for some folks expressing frustration along those lines.

[jr59]

Then why are you bidding on the big CSI?

Given those things, Dave Kirk is the guy I would call.
I see a fillet brazed teraplane in your future!

And look at who post right behind me!


It is a tough choice to make isn't it?

I am asked this question by potential customers from time to time and I tell them the same thing each time. I think the client first needs to figure out what type of bike they want (material and construction) and then look at builders who specialize in just this niche. You'd be surprised by how many times I've gotten calls from folks looking for a Ti bike and I don't offer Ti......they will say something like "but could you make a Ti bike for me?". No I can't - and why would you want me to?

So once you have the type of bike you want nailed down and a list of builders who specialize in that type of bike then focus your attention on just those builders - the rest no longer matter for this bike. Go to these builder's websites and read through them and see how the general attitude and philosophy of the builder jives with your own. Take a look at their bikes and see if the look of the bikes is what you are looking for. Finally consider how long the builder has been in business and feel out how comfortable you are with this.

Your list should have gotten shorter at this point........ now it's time to contact the finalists. Send them an email or better yet call them. Do they answer your email quickly? Do they take your call and make time for you or offer to call you back at a set time when it fits into both your schedules? If you don't get an email reply or a call back quickly before you give them a deposit it might not be wise to think that it will get better as it goes along.

Talk to the guy - he's a guy just like you - talk to him. Ask questions and listen to the answers. Get a feel for the guy. Are you comfortable talking with him? Do you feel like you understand each other? If not I doubt it will get better once things get rolling. Listen to your gut on this and do not ignore a bad feeling just because the bike looks sweet on the website.

Now your list should be pretty darn short. At this point you will have a few guys who's work you like and whom you have a report with and you really can't go wrong from here on out. Now you just need to listen to your gut and pick the one that feels right.

There are very few certainties in life and one never knows for sure how things will turn out. but if you do your homework you can very strongly stack the deck in your favor and make a good outcome very close to certain.

I hope that helps.

dave

Now I really see a teraplane in your stable! :banana:

[jmoore]

Then why are you bidding on the big CSI?

Given those things, Dave Kirk is the guy I would call.
I see a fillet brazed teraplane in your future!


The CSI would be a "beater" I can travel with and not worry about it getting scratched. But I could probably put the $$ to better use with a high quality travel case and FedEx fees. That would allow me to travel with my dream bike.

See, this thread is helping me make decisions already!



Would LOVE to put Dave kirk on the list, esp. with his excellent reply to this question. Unfortunately I don't think I can stretch the budget into the filet brazed Terraplane territory.

[jlwdm]

I'm not a super anal retentive guy about the bike. I figure the builder knows what he's doing so I welcome feedback and suggestions on how to make this the best bike possible for my budget. Collaboration is high on the list.

I don't particularly care if it takes 2 months or 8 months to deliver.
I want great paint.
I want something unique and maybe a bit obscure, but a bike person "in the know" would know that it is killer.
Ideally I'd like the frame/fork to be less than $2500 but it could go higher if needed.

Lots of good ideas but don't get sucked in by just the looks of a frame. At your size the fit and proper geometry are really important. I am not convinced that all builders know how to build the proper sized bike. Unfortunately the bike shows are just for show - not about the ride.

What size frame do you ride? If it helps you at all I have the last CSI built - 62.5cm ctc seat tube after 1 degree of slope - and a Nove - 61cm ctc seat tube after 4 degrees of slope - here in the DFW area. Probably short for you in the top tube though. I am 6 2 1/2.

THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE!!!!!!!

I have a little bigger Spectrum - 62.5 ctc after 5 degrees of slope but it is sitting doing nothing in Seattle.

Let me know if I can help.

Jeff

[jmoore]

Lots of good ideas but don't get sucked in by just the looks of a frame. At your size the fit and proper geometry are really important. I am not convinced that all builders know how to build the proper sized bike. Unfortunately the bike shows are just for show - not about the ride.

What size frame do you ride? If it helps you at all I have the last CSI built - 62.5cm ctc seat tube after 1 degree of slope - and a Nove - 61cm ctc seat tube after 4 degrees of slope - here in the DFW area. Probably short for you in the top tube though. I am 6 2 1/2.

THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE!!!!!!!

I have a little bigger Spectrum - 62.5 ctc after 5 degrees of slope but it is sitting doing nothing in Seattle.

Let me know if I can help.

Jeff

My last measurements were 64x60, based on the Serotta fitting I had a few years back. All my bikes are setup based on this and it feels good. It probably wouldn't hurt to have these numbers refactored before final design.


And yes, I'd love to meet and see your stable sometime. That would be great.

[jr59]

Would LOVE to put Dave kirk on the list, esp. with his excellent reply to this question. Unfortunately I don't think I can stretch the budget into the filet brazed Terraplane territory.


Sorry guy I'm only trying to help!

[nighthawk]

If you can swing it, get up to Denver in Feb for the NAhBS:

http://2013.handmadebicycleshow.com/2013-nahbs/info/

You'll get to see some bikes and talk to the builders.
Could shrink your list... Or make it longer.

[fa63]

Here are my priorities for a custom builder (after having identified which material to go with):

- Price: no point in wasting in anyone's time if I can't afford it.
- Responsiveness / willingness to communicate: shoot several builders of your interest an email and see if one stands out from the other with regards to their response time and willingness to answer questions. I don't expect immediate responses or a drawn-out conversation from anyone, but was surprised to see how much variance there was in this area.
- Reputation: a quick online search will give you lots to read to make an informed decision.
- Turnaround time: I am not really willing to wait several years, or even six months for a frame, unless I have the build planned out that way for some reason. Your willingness to wait may vary of course, but this could become a disappointment if you are not ready to wait.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

In addition to the very good advice above, think long and hard about whether you are willing to work with frame builders who take a "I'll get to it when I get to it" approach to buildling your frameset. If it doesn't really matter to you when you get the frameset, this won't help reduce the field any.

If you are looking for a frame builder who will build your frameset reasonably within his/her estimate, you should engage in quite a bit of vetting, as there have been many horror stories about frame builders who are good at chatting you up and getting your deposit, then failing to deliver a frameset anywhere remotely around the original estimated date, many times years late.

I have to second the Kirk fillet-brazed Terraplane suggestion. Save a little longer, if you have to. You won't regret it.

[fa63]

If you can swing it, get up to Denver in Feb for the NAhBS:

http://2013.handmadebicycleshow.com/2013-nahbs/info/

You'll get to see some bikes and talk to the builders.
Could shrink your list... Or make it longer.

I think this is a great suggestion as well. I attended last year's edition, and some builders definitely stood out from others, especially Dave Kirk and Nick Crumpton.

[William]

DK is a great suggestion, but I'm sure Kelly Bedford can get you there as well. Drew at Engin Cycles, Eric at Winter Bicycles....I could keep going for a while.

Lots of great suggestions so far but the bottom line is you have to find who speaks to you. If they are responsive, have good feedback and you click with them, plunk down the dough.

Best of luck and post up pictures when you get it.:cool:






William

[thenewguy11]

Lots of good advice here. One thing I haven't seen mentioned though - I'd drop the idea that this (or any) particular bike is going to be the "be all, end all" one. Maybe that works for some folks but judging from the people who frequent this forum, I've found that upping the ante for a custom frame seems to lead to further sampling down the line.

I say that just to point out that there's always the "next" frame so choosing just one builder doesn't have to be last word in bikes.

[bikinchris]

I want a road bike that fits me. I am 6'5" and have never ridden a properly sized bicycle. I have bikes that fit, but no bikes that are the "right size" from an aesthetic standpoint

I want it to be steel.
I want it to have a traditional horizontal top tube.
I want round tubes - no triangle or odd shaped tubing.
I want paint with panels.
I have a couple of nice lugged steel Merckx, so probably TIG or filet brazed just to be different.


My conundrum is that with my saddle business I have done work for several excellent builders. They are all fantastic and highly regarded, so I feel like I should go with one of them. I also know a couple of local builders that are great. They have done paint for me and we talk on a regular basis. Then there are TX locals that are getting excellent press and reviews about their stuff. I think it would be cool to get in on the ground floor with one of those guys.

And then there are guys who build that I have lusted after since I started looking at steel. I have no personal connection to them but I know people with their bikes, often multiple bikes, and they are above reproach. So feeding my youthful lust would be great as well.

There really is a plethora of super high quality stuff available now.

Actully, as much as I admire and trust many builders, if I was 6-5 I would call Lennard Zinn.

[NHAero]

Dave Kirk's excellent advice is almost step by step how I found my way to Dave Anderson. I wanted a solo builder, lugged, stainless steel. I narrowed it down and called people (and at that point all seemed great). Finally, Brian Chapman at Circle A said, you know, if you really want stainless, you should go with Dave Anderson!

Dave does his own paint, to boot, and the deep sparkly blue on my new bike is stunning, and his fillet work looks incredible.

Good luck, it's fun!

[Ahneida Ride]

What size frame do you ride? If it helps you at all I have the last CSI built - 62.5cm ctc seat tube after 1 degree of slope -


Jeff

I rode that bike. I know why it is not for sale. Too small for Jason and yours
truly, otherwise that bike would have been mine ! :banana:

Mr. Kirk sets a quality standard.
Insist on a craftsman that builds to that level of quality.

[giverdada]

Carl Strong.

http://strongframes.com

steel. tig'd to perfection. down the road from dave kirk (or at least used to be?) and they both do their work to the nth degree of awesome. pick your top tube slope or lack thereof. and no one, NO ONE i've seen can beat his price on work of that quality let alone within his turnaround time. $1850 for a steel frame built to you. oh, and mr. strong also happens to be a pretty tall guy...

just my 2 cents.

[ultraman6970]

IMO now a days with the waiting lists, the 1st thing to ask is how fast do you want the frame? If you are willing to wait like 10 years then the list of builders is short, if you want to wait 2 months, then the same situation.

So far from the work I have seen, all the yamaguchi students do perfect fillets.

[67-59]

I read recommendations here, decided the type of bike I wanted (lugged steel road), looked at websites of builders who I'd heard were good at lugged steel, and talked to a few of the builders. That helped me narrow it down to 5-10 builders, but from there it was just "gut feel."

I ultimately chose Dave Kirk and have been happily riding the heck out of that bike for several years now...but chances are I'd have been happy if I had gone with any of the other names on my short list too.

[93legendti]

Find someone who has been around for a while and whose work you like. There's plenty of talk here about great builders.

I've had custom bikes built by Serotta, Tom Kellogg, Carl Strong and Dave Kirk and I would order again from all 4.

[Ken Robb]

I have a couple of nice lugged steel Merckx, so probably TIG or filet brazed just to be different.






.
I think your new custom should be built your FAVORITE way. If that is lugged rather than TIG or filet brazed so be it. I say this because the new custom bike designed and built just for you should be so superior to your present bikes(you said they are not perfect fits) that you won't want to ride them any more. Assuming this is the case there is no reason to feel you should get a "different" build than your old bikes.

[jmoore]

Sorry guy I'm only trying to help!

It's definitely helping. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

[steampunk]

I can't add much more to what jr59, fa63, and of course DK said.

It really comes down to being honest with yourself and figuring out how much you want to spend and what kind of bike you want. That should narrow down the candidates, then comes the interaction - calls, emails, etc. Go with someone that builds stuff that very closely matches your vision/needs/wants already and gut feel and trust is the rest.

And if there is some kind of custom bike show nearby or that you're willing to travel to, take advantage and GO! That will jump start the whole selection process.

[rounder]

I am definitely not an expert, but if you can swing it you should go to the next North American Handbuilt Bicycle Show (NAHBS). I went to the one in Richmond a few years ago and bought a bike (was not really there to buy one, just wanted to see them). It is a major show and the major builders are there. You can see the bikes and talk to the builders.

It is not the only way to do it. You can go with the best local builder, or go with the biggest builder. But if you want to talk to the builder who has the best ideas of building your bike, it is a good way to go.

I did and i was happy (go kelly bedford).

[Louis]

I'll echo what TheNewGuy said above: I would not approach this as "the last custom bike I'll every buy." That puts too much pressure on the decision because you feel everything has to be just right. No one bike or builder can do that unless you want something very very specific.

I'd think about the type of riding you're most interested in doing with the bike, think about the material that most interests you, look around for a few builders who tend to cater to that sort of thing and go from there.

Don't forget, however important riding is to us, they're just bicycles.

[Ken Robb]

I went to the San Diego Handbuilt Show and ordered a frame frome Paul Taylor. It seemed like a good idea at the time---I'd had a couple of beers, he was charming, yada, yada, yada. I was realizing that the frame I had on order from Curt Goodrich was going to be later than expected. Rather ironic overall, no?

[EricEstlund]

I'll echo what has been said- make a mental note when you see work you respond to, and contact those builders. Have a quick (or not so quick) chat to suss out your interests and to measure their response. If you feel like you are gelling with them, like they are getting you, and as though you are both on the same track to a great bike go ahead and proceed. It should be a fun process out of the gate.

A quick note on material and construction- if you have preferences, great! If you don't, go with a builder who's work draws you in and let them figure that stuff out. A builder who's work you connect with will be able to help you tease out the subtleties and fill in the blanks.

[rounder]

Ken, agree. But if you already have decided that you want to buy a custom, there are worse places to go than NAHBS to meet the builders and find out what is available.

[John H.]

I will make it easy on you.
Fillet- Steve Rex or Dave Kirk.
Tig- Zank, IF, Soulcraft, or Steelman (though he may blow your price out of the water).

[tannhauser]

It doesn't matter.

[rphetteplace]

Dave Kirk is about 6'4" if a tall guy issue is something you worry about. I'm a hair under 6'6" and have bought 6 DeSalvos over the last five years. I've been thrilled with all of them. The framebuilder world is pretty small and most of them know each other and they are pretty much all awesome passionate guys.

[that guy]

I would never order a custom bike from someone I hadn't met in person. It's like walking into a bike shop for the first time - you know immediately if it's going to be a good experience (or not).

[Dekonick]

I can only speak from my experience, but I own a Kirk designed bike (Serotta Hors Categorie) and it is the bomb... I worked with Tom Kellog for paint and polish - a top notch guy with bikes to match... and I have a Bedford touring bike that I love. All I can say is working with Tom Kellog and Kelly Bedford was easy and pleasant. I plan to do more business in the future. I have talked with Dave Kirk a couple of times, and he also was extremely easy going - I have seen several terraplane bikes and they are beautiful. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these builders. On the other hand, I have witnessed a builder shaft a friend (I won't call him out - but if you search the forum you can find out who it was).

Find someone you like - I can personally vouch for Bedford and Kellog. There are many others so don't limit your search. Just know KB and TK are top notch.

Enjoy the hunt!

:banana:


William[/QUOTE]

[Peter B]

I mean seriously? How do you do it? I'm seriously considering a custom frame. Likely a "last bike, no holds barred" type purchase.

Every time I look at a builder site, I see beautiful frames and I think, I'm going with them. Then I look at another site and I change my mind.

One day I think it would be great to work with someone locally that I have worked with before.

The next I think that it would be great to work with someone I've worked with in another capacity.

Then another I think I've lusted after their stuff for years and should go with them.

And yet another day I think that a very highly respected builder has made me an excellent offer and I should go with them.

And to compound all this, I am going to the TX Custom Bicycle Show this weekend, so I'm sure I'll be tempted by multiple builders there.


I know that they will all build me something fantastic. And they are all in roughly the same ballpark, price wise.

So really, how do I choose?

I'm jumping in here without reading all the replies.

One approach is to narrow the field of options:

1) Do you have a preferred material in mind?
Yes--delete those who lack specific material experience.
2) Do you have a preferred joining technique/aesthetic (i.e. lugs, tig, fillet brazed, bi-lam)?
Yes--focus on the experts accordingly.
3) Is your position sorted & do you know your contact points?
No--find a local builder or budget for a trip to get fit.
4)Gravitate in the direction of your instinct--research websites, blogs, etc. and see what draws your interest and aligns with your aesthetic, preferences, interests and priorities.
5) How long do you want to wait?
6) How much can you afford?
7) Does the builder under consideration have a good reputation?
8) Make phone calls and see who you click with.

That will at least begin to give a little focus to the overload of web imagery. Good luck and try to have some fun with the process!

[jmoore]

Good luck and try to have some fun with the process!

Trust me, this is all fun! Every part of it.

[bfd]

I will make it easy on you.
Fillet- Steve Rex or Dave Kirk.
Tig- Zank, IF, Soulcraft, or Steelman (though he may blow your price out of the water).

I'll add to that list, if you want lugged steel - for "old school," go to Bruce Gordon or Roland Della Santa; for modern, check out Dave Wages/Ellis Cycles.

Good Luck!

[Peter B]

I'll add to that list, if you want lugged steel - for "old school," go to Bruce Gordon or Roland Della Santa; for modern, check out Dave Wages/Ellis Cycles.

Good Luck!

Add DeSalvo to the lugged and tigged lists.

[jr59]

I'm not a super anal retentive guy about the bike. I figure the builder knows what he's doing so I welcome feedback and suggestions on how to make this the best bike possible for my budget. Collaboration is high on the list.

I don't particularly care if it takes 2 months or 8 months to deliver.
I want great paint.
I want something unique and maybe a bit obscure, but a bike person "in the know" would know that it is killer.
Ideally I'd like the frame/fork to be less than $2500 but it could go higher if needed.

One more here then I'm out! All the bases seemed to be covered.

If you want something unique and a bit obscure, I would say save your money and get something just like that!
You seem to think that Kirks are out of the budget. I would say to you that this will be a bike for a lifetime. Why not save and get what you really want! Something that to you is KILLER!
Plenty of people can build you a bike for 2500 and less. Some real nice stuff too. But the first thing you need to do is decide what you want, then work on saving, or selling, to come up with the money.

[oldpotatoe]

It doesn't matter.

Teehee..dirty little secret. In terms of getting on the thing and riding, 'which' really matters little. Psychologically it might but functionally, it matters little.

[eippo1]

One quick suggestion for another builder to look into specifically for experience with tall frames would be Peter Mooney. He himself rides a tall bike and his photographer, who is 6'-6" has gotten 3 or 4 frames built by Peter over the course of the last twenty years and loves every one of them.
He'll be the one I work with as well because I love his bikes, but mostly because I know him personally, and fully trust him.

[tannhauser]

Teehee..dirty little secret. In terms of getting on the thing and riding, 'which' really matters little. Psychologically it might but functionally, it matters little.

Somebody posted about not having ridden his "rain bike" Eriksen in California because it hadn't rained in 6 months.

What a friggin waste.

[John H.]

A waste. Really? You ride a bike with 40mm Honjos in the sunshine? Why?

Somebody posted about not having ridden his "rain bike" Eriksen in California because it hadn't rained in 6 months.

What a friggin waste.

[Ken Robb]

Ken, agree. But if you already have decided that you want to buy a custom, there are worse places to go than NAHBS to meet the builders and find out what is available.

I never meant that going to a show was a bad idea. I was just remembering some personal experiences ordering custom bikes and kind of laughing at myself.:)

[Ken Robb]

A waste. Really? You ride a bike with 40mm Honjos in the sunshine? Why?

Puddles from sprinklers?:banana:

[John H.]

We don't have that problem around here. Not like Socal where they have to build drainage channels into residential streets.

Puddles from sprinklers?:banana:

[tannhauser]

A waste. Really? You ride a bike with 40mm Honjos in the sunshine? Why?

Because it rides sublimely and way better than the carbon bikes he'd been riding all summer, to paraphrase that guy.

That's why.

It's like saving your 4wd for when it snows. It's got fenders, y'know?

"Any bike that gets ridden is a good bike."

[dekindy]

I went to the San Diego Handbuilt Show and ordered a frame frome Paul Taylor. It seemed like a good idea at the time---I'd had a couple of beers, he was charming, yada, yada, yada. I was realizing that the frame I had on order from Curt Goodrich was going to be later than expected. Rather ironic overall, no?

So what happened? Still waiting on both?

[John H.]

Good reason to get another Eriksen without fenders!

[tannhauser]

If the guy really isn't going to touch his bike for that long and the fenders are already fitted it's not rocket science to...

Take them off and put them back on.

Or he can spend another $8k because he doesn't like maintenance.

Hey what do I care.

[John H.]

You guys keep going further off track-
What does a guy in California with a pimpy fender bike have to do with the OP who wants a flat toptube, fillet or tig steel bike?

[tannhauser]

Well I was talking to le potate ancien when you butted in. That's ok right?

[rjfr]

Having recently survived the process with two builders, there are a few things I'd suggest.

First, decide on fenders or not. Then baggage, front or rear, or not. After that, the type of riding, racing, long duration, short club rides, etc. All purpose bikes are more difficult to have built than specific purpose.

Make sure you know exactly what you want, down to the angle of the top tube, type of seat cluster, angles, type of join, wheelbase, material, type of paint, etc. If you are leaving it to the builder to make these decisions, make sure you choose someone who has built several bikes exactly like what you have in mind including paint and details. Every detail. Something as simple as a brake mount or cable routing can be a deal breaker. Even if you are leaving the geometry to the builder, know what is reasonable for you and what is not. Surprises can be good or bad.

Where you have something in mind, make absolutely sure that you specify the critical aspects. Make sure you agree up front that your requirements will be respected before you put any money down.

If you are on a long wait list, be very sure that what you want now is not a whim. Research and very thoroughly investigate what you want and why. In 10 months to 5 years, your needs may change.

There are a few exceptions but I think that for the most part, a builder will give you what they know and have found to be proven over time, even if they initially agree to provide you with your requested features. If your request is outside their comfort zone, it will be difficult to obtain the result you desire. It is very important to find a builder with a track record of having built the exact features you desire.

In general, it is much easier to find a bike with racing geometry than one which provides full weather protection and light weight. There are a few builders with a reputation in the latter form, but the results are quite specific. It is almost, if not totally impossible to find a carbon randonneuring bike which feature fenders and a front rack, with a relaxed geometry. I hope this will change. The problem is with bottom bracket and fork. Easy to find heavier bikes with the features, but not state of the art lightweight bikes. At the moment the carbon components are too narrow for wide tires (32mm+) and fenders.

In summary, choose the builder based on customer satisfaction and a history of building a quite a few bikes exactly like what you have in mind, with the only variation being geometry, (design of a randonneuring bike is not the same as a racing bike), and size, again, within narrow limits (design constraints for a 64 cm are not the same as for a 54 cm). If you are expecting a complete bike with all components assembled, make sure the builder has a history of delivering such to the satisfaction of multiple customers with several thousand miles/kilometers of actual use.

Just my two cents.

[mister]

first, make sure you have a good idea of what you want before you start talking to builders

i think it's best to work with a builder that's been building for a long time, not necessarily under their own name but one that has experience so they know what works, dave kirk is an example.

call the builders on your list and ask some questions...let them talk to you about what they think they should build you. take some notes. think it over then compare wait times and prices.

don't try to micromanage the build once you decide to let a builder do their thing. if you chose a good builder you'll be better off letting them build you what you need than you telling them what to build you. basically what you have to do is be able to communicate, so they know what you need.

also, don't try to build a bike to do a bunch of specialized things, you'll end up with a bike that doesn't do anything really well...

[djg]

I mean seriously? How do you do it? I'm seriously considering a custom frame. Likely a "last bike, no holds barred" type purchase.

Every time I look at a builder site, I see beautiful frames and I think, I'm going with them. Then I look at another site and I change my mind.

One day I think it would be great to work with someone locally that I have worked with before.

The next I think that it would be great to work with someone I've worked with in another capacity.

Then another I think I've lusted after their stuff for years and should go with them.

And yet another day I think that a very highly respected builder has made me an excellent offer and I should go with them.

And to compound all this, I am going to the TX Custom Bicycle Show this weekend, so I'm sure I'll be tempted by multiple builders there.


I know that they will all build me something fantastic. And they are all in roughly the same ballpark, price wise.

So really, how do I choose?

A buddy once said that the most expensive bike you can buy is the one that isn't quite what you really wanted. First, find somebody with a track record of building the type of bike you want. Second, recognize that if there's one guy's name that has always been there in the back of your mind . . . well, if you go elsewhere, are you always gonna wonder?

For me, both considerations pointed one way when buying my most recent bike (and, in fact, the only one built made-to-measure for me). Yes, I knew full well that Kirk, Bedford, Strong, Vanilla, Eriksen, Hampsten, and others, with lists shorter to longer to just plain closed, could design and build a great bike. But I'd always wondered about Spectrum. I'd seen road and track versions up close; I'd seen pics of rando and cross bikes; I knew of Tom's rep for a good many years, and knew (personally, actually, not just virtually) a number of Tom's clients, each and every one of whom seemed way more than pleased with both the product and the man; I had met Tom and turned the pedals with him. I have no story about which of these elements need to matter to anybody else, or how to rank them, but in the end many possibilities were intruiging but one, more than others, would have left me with the "what if" thing. It didn't take me long to home in on that fact.

Another factor for me was that fact that I could manage a trip for a fitting with the guy who would actually be responsible for designing the frame. I know that there are builders who do a great job with measurements sent by mail -- heck, for that matter, there are some terrific stock bikes out there -- but the in-person thing with a builder legendary as a fitter was a definite plus for me.

Things I would avoid, if all the stuff above hadn't settled it: somebody building for two years might be a budding master, but why? By all means take a chance if you want, but it's a time consuming, expensive process, and why go on a flyer or role the dice? Maybe Richard Sachs can go to a show, look at the paint, and know what's underneath, but I can't. Something truly wack or seriously sloppy -- sure, I might spot either, depending on the particulars, but beyond that . . . not so sure. I'd also avoid folks reputed to be unreliable or inconsistently reliable (although if that one dream builder, as per above, happens to have ups and downs in communciations, delivering, etc., well, maybe that's something to process). Heck, with folks I don't know, I'd be wary of anybody receiving significantly mixed reports -- plenty of folks with very clean reputations to go around.

For me, also, I'd make a distinction between a builder who is responsive in building to my needs versus a builder who wants me -- or really, anybody besides the builder -- to design my bike. If I'm a 5' 2" rando rider who is built like Yosemite Sam (and I'm none of those things), then I might be pretty unhappy with somebody who just does road racing or touring models for normally proportioned folks. On the other hand, I don't want the builder asking me to spec angles or tubes. I know that some people want more input, and some very good builders take more input. But in looking for a builder, I wasn't really looking for a welder.

So what do you do if your various priorities appear to be more-or-less a wash, and there's no name that keeps worming its way back into your consciousness (in a good way)? I dunno. Flip a coin. Or maybe flip a coin and trust your gut if you feel a little bummed or happy with result. Seriously. Sometimes we feel torn where there is no obvious way to sort between equally good alternatives. But those only feel like hard choices if you are stuck on the idea that there's an optimum optimorum you might be missing. Really, there are good choices and bad ones, and we shouldn't lose too much sleep over the good ones.

[jmoore]

Sometimes we feel torn where there is no obvious way to sort between equally good alternatives. But those only feel like hard choices if you are stuck on the idea that there's an optimum optimorum you might be missing. Really, there are good choices and bad ones, and we shouldn't lose too much sleep over the good ones.

This is me. I know they are all good. I know they will do a fine job. But which to choose?

I'm down to 4 builders now. Likely down to two, if I really think about it. And the winner is likely who I was leaning towards all along. So going with my initial gut reaction is what I should probably do and I could have saved myself some fretting about all this.

Most of the advice in this thread is excellent btw. And really helpful.

[EricEstlund]

likely who I was leaning towards all along

That speaks volumes.

[jmeloy]

Carl Strong.

http://strongframes.com

steel. tig'd to perfection. down the road from dave kirk (or at least used to be?) and they both do their work to the nth degree of awesome. pick your top tube slope or lack thereof. and no one, NO ONE i've seen can beat his price on work of that quality let alone within his turnaround time. $1850 for a steel frame built to you. oh, and mr. strong also happens to be a pretty tall guy...

just my 2 cents.

I also want to point out Carl's work. Just a great guy who does tremendous work and offers great value. Great communication. I'd add the same for Dave Kirk as well!

[rugbysecondrow]

I scanned the responses and thought I would add this
The bike will be a product of the process by which it was acquired...be happy with the process and you will likely be happy with the bike. Figure what sort of process you want and be sure you hire the right guy for how you want the process to work. Do you want the builder to be the fitter as well, do you have a fitter, will you be dictating lengths, angles etc to the builder or just letting him work his magic? All of this will play into the experience and it helps to have your expectations aligned with what will actually occur. I was very happy working with Kelly Bedford as the builder and Smiley as the fitter, but I am certain I would not have gotten as good a product if I had to play a large role. I am a hands off, let the experts work sort of guy, but not all folks are like that. Tom Kellogg is a guy I would like to work with someday, but I also live within driving distance so having him do the fitting and building would then make sense, this might not work for you.

So I would ask the follow questions of myself:

Am I using a bike fitter?
Does that fitter have a recommendation on a builder they have worked with or, specifically, don't like to work with?
Do I want the builder to design the bike or do I want to dictate much of it?
Do I want to contract with a guy putting tubes together or a frame builder/designer? There is a difference.
Do I want to be talked to and hand holded through the process or am I fine with paying the fees and then chilling while the work is being done?

There are quite a few more questions, but you get the gist. Enjoy the process and be sure you don't set yourself up for failure or unhappiness by misunderstanding your expectations. As you can see from my signature below, I was happy with the process and the product with Kelly Bedford.

[oldpotatoe]

This is me. I know they are all good. I know they will do a fine job. But which to choose?

I'm down to 4 builders now. Likely down to two, if I really think about it. And the winner is likely who I was leaning towards all along. So going with my initial gut reaction is what I should probably do and I could have saved myself some fretting about all this.

Most of the advice in this thread is excellent btw. And really helpful.

Geeezz, just get a MXLeader or Pegoretti and be done with it.....

[Ahneida Ride]

Garbage in .... garbage out ...

just like any computer program ....

The builder needs to know everything about you.
The more the better. I really believe this.

and make sure YOU pick the color code for paint.

Every builder has a style ... ya gotta like his style ...

Just take a look at a few Ellis (Dave Wages) and you have a good idea
of what you'll get from Dave.

[jr59]

Garbage in .... garbage out ...

just like any computer program ....

The builder needs to know everything about you.
The more the better. I really believe this.

and make sure YOU pick the color code for paint.

Every builder has a style ... ya gotta like his style ...

Just take a look at a few Ellis (Dave Wages) and you have a good idea
of what you'll get from Dave.

And they are really SWEET!

[charliedid]

I mean seriously? How do you do it? I'm seriously considering a custom frame. Likely a "last bike, no holds barred" type purchase.

Every time I look at a builder site, I see beautiful frames and I think, I'm going with them. Then I look at another site and I change my mind.

One day I think it would be great to work with someone locally that I have worked with before.

Good idea...

The next I think that it would be great to work with someone I've worked with in another capacity.

Like who?

Then another I think I've lusted after their stuff for years and should go with them.

Lust is over rated.

And yet another day I think that a very highly respected builder has made me an excellent offer and I should go with them.

What was the offer?

And to compound all this, I am going to the TX Custom Bicycle Show this weekend, so I'm sure I'll be tempted by multiple builders there.


I know that they will all build me something fantastic. And they are all in roughly the same ballpark, price wise.

So really, how do I choose?

Do you have trouble ordering in restaurants?

I'm guessing this whole thread has you no closer to your imaginary new bike.:p

Good luck!

[classtimesailer]

If I was doing it again: I would go as local as possible because it would be fun to visit the builders shop and go for a ride typical of my regular rides. I would chose a builder who uses his bike like I use mine. When I got mine, there was no one nearby and I chose a builder 3000 miles away. Now there are at least three builders within an hour of my house. (Paint is VERY important.)
Jeff

[John H.]

By all accounts there are a bunch of good builders in Tx. Any of them specialize in tig or fillet?
Another good one to look at is Lighthouse. About as classic as it gets. Nice fillet frames.

[jmoore]

Geeezz, just get a MXLeader or Pegoretti and be done with it.....

I already have an MXLeader and it's too small. Otherwise no issue with that particular bike. Do you have a 64 MXL you want to trade?



This thread was very helpful in getting me to sort out my thoughts. I'm a guy who takes a while to sort out big purchases. This is a big purchase and I'm confident I''ve got a good list and will end up with an excellent bike.


FWIW, I'm just back from the TX Custom Bicycle show. There were several great builders, some good ones and a few not so great. I got a good feel for a bunch of them and could have a couple of them build me a bike, no problem. Unfortunatly the TIG/filet options were lacking compared to my current choices, so that just reinforced that I'm on the right track with my choices. I could put down a deposit today on any of my 4 and be happy.

And I have no problem ordering in restaurants. But I don't have to live with a restaurant choice for multiple years and pay multiple thousand dollars for it either.

[bluesea]

Geeezz, just get a MXLeader or Pegoretti and be done with it.....


Lol!