A Warm Hello to The Paceline Forum Community

[rustylion]

Hi All,

My name is Bill Watkins and am a new member of The Paceline Forum. You may have heard that I am, also, the new CEO at Serotta Competition Bicycles and Great American Bicycle Company.

There was a recent press release sent out about me as well as a bunch of other official announcements. Wow! They made me sound so absolutely wonderful that I would have thought my mother wrote them (Thanks, Mom!). Regardless of what they may say, just know I am a pretty simple guy who loves the sport of cycling, loves the thrill of cycling competition, loves the game of business, loves Serotta for what it was (and can be)...and yes, my dear, loves his wife. So, nothing fancy or special about me - just plain old (pretty darn old), jeans and T-shirt Bill.

Today, I want to officially open a direct channel to me thru this forum. I want to hear your thoughts, comments, opinions, BIG ideas and anything else Serotta-related. I may not know what I am committing to but let me say that I will do my best to address each issue and to personally respond to anything you send me.

I am excited to be here in Saratoga Springs and to be able to open up this wonderful channel of communication with fellow passionate cyclists (and, I hope some Serotta owners, past and present). If you are ever in the Saratoga Springs area, let me invite you to come ride with me; I am out on the road enjoying cycling and my Serotta bike every day. Until then, I am here for you and look forward to our future connections.

Thanks and be well,
bill

[AngryScientist]

Wow, welcome Bill, we're glad to have you on board. i know there are a lot of strong opinions here about Serotta, and the opportunity to discuss them with you is a breadth of fresh air. thanks for the introduction, and look forward to chatting with you.

plenty of happy Serotta owners here, for sure.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iFwoZoBuIr4/T-nLWub2yeI/AAAAAAAAAgs/0zftAnnKgAk/s640/IMG_0033.JPG

[MarleyMon]

Hi Bill,
I hope you have great success and keep building great bikes.
I love my steel Fierte.

[rbtmcardle]

Congratulations on the new position and I wish you well on the challenge, in my experience, the people whom I have had recent contact with (Feb to April 2012) are responsive, accurate and friendly, though I have heard others havent had as positive experience as I.

Welcome to the forums and be sure to reading the guidelines about the classifieds before you list something for sale. :)

bob

[jr59]

Sorry I must have missed the press release. I am sure your mom did a great job writing it! :p

No honestly, all here have loved Serottas for a long time. We hope with your help they once again become a major player in the bike building world.

Please take us on here with a grain of salt. We all know how to run a bike company with other people's money!

We do wish you luck and are thankful for you posting and reading here.

[FlashUNC]

Welcome aboard. You'll find no shortage of passionate opinions around here, especially around the big S. Though remember it is folks who are fans of the company and the heritage it brings to the table.

[Aaron O]

Bill - I wish you and Serotta a successful and profitable future.

[laupsi]

Welcome and thanks for the "open air" greetings and invitation. Thanks too for helping to stabliize a wonderful american company. Cheers! :)

[bigreen505]

Welcome!

[67-59]

Welcome aboard, Bill! Great to have you here.

[Likes2ridefar]

welcome. this is an amazing forum with the majority of users having a lot of experience with cycling.

Uhm, if you ever need a test rider for "new ideas" bikes you know where to look:banana:

[DRZRM]

Hey Bill,

Nice gesture introducing yourself here, I wish you all the luck in the world. Although Serotta has taken a few knocks around here in the last few months...years?..I think you will find this a community that remains optimistic about the brand, and wishes you and Ben nothing but the very best.

I'll likely always have at least one Serotta in the quiver.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f302/drzrm/2012-08-27100319.jpg

Oh, I think you guys should go back to selling decals to folks who can confirm the serial number on their frames.

Best,

Zach

[Elefantino]

Bill, congrats and welcome. This is a good place, and we loves us our Serottas.

Please increase your R&D of extra large frames. I know a tester who could help you out. He'll even pay shipping. :D

[phcollard]

Welcome Bill!

And you look much better than the ordinary jeans and T-shirt Bill. I know... I know a few.

There are a lot of Serotta fans here, myself included, and I think we'll all be happy to have you to chat with about bikes and OT - not Lance related.

Now, what are your plans for bringing back the CSi to the catalog? :D

Cheers,

Philippe.

[G-Reg]

Welcome to the forum.

One of the hottest Serotta topics in the last few years has been the pricing structure.

Do you envision the pricing staying along the same lines or is there a chance that you will be able to bring them down a bit?

[jlwdm]

Bill, it is great to have you introducing yourself on the forum. Serotta has needed a better presence here.

As the owner of the last CSI I hope you ignore phcollard's request to bring back the CSI.

Wishing you success.

Jeff
Serotta CSI
Serotta Nove

[Joachim]

Welcome. We sure love our Serotta's, but I would like to see more "real/substantiated" justification for the high prices (which might convince me to get a Legend).

[AngryScientist]

i personally would like to see Serotta sell swag again. I'm pretty sure "S" branded water bottles, tshirts, jerseys, hats, etc would sell very well.

[avalonracing]

Hello Bill,

You just said "Hello" to a good group of people and a great fan base to reach out to.
Among this audience you'll find group of passionate cyclists that includes many hardcore Serotta fans. You'll also find some people that were former fans of the brand that have fallen out of love that may once again become enamored with the brand.

You'll also get a lot of public advice, PMs and emails from us as 90% of us (like most people on internet forums) know almost everything there is to know about business that we've never run.

In all seriousness though I just read your bio and I'm really excited about the skill set that you are bringing to the company. Of course your experience founding and running a company that deals with highly technical devices is fantastic but I'm damn excited about having someone with a serious bike racing background at the helm. Of course Ben Serotta did some amazing things for American cycling and bike building but the industry as a whole and brand building has changed a bit and you are going to bring something new to the table.

I've felt for years that Serotta has a brand that can fill an gap that has opened up in American cycling. There is a place for company that can produce handmade, high performance, custom and race bikes (Then again I thought that ABG could have done this with Merlin). Sure there are a lot of small builders who make great bikes but not with Serotta's resources.

There are people like me who want a well-built race frame that is made of metal (Ti), in America, that will have a short build time, and made by a company with the infrastructure to back it up with a decent warranty. And oh yeah, have it cost less than a decent used car.

No everyone wants a carbon Trek or a bike that is made in the Far East for an Italian company with big sponsorship money.

Serotta used to have quite the competition cache before it came to be known as "Doctors & Dentists Bike".

I hope that you choose to reintroduce Serotta as a performance/competition bike and let this trickle down to the rest of the brand. Contrary to what some people think it isn't just the 20 year olds who want to be on the bike that the racers ride. I've seen a hell of a lot of doctors and dentists on Madones and Colnagos who bought them because they are the bikes that racers ride.

For a long time Serottas were the bike that many of the guys I knew were lusting for but they lost that appeal over the years. There is now a perceived a coolness that IF, Seven, Moots, Vanilla and now Firefly has that seems to be elusive of Serotta (I'm leaving out the great brands like Kirk, Sachs and Strong off this list because of their smaller size). I believe that with the correct branding including getting some new bikes under the right people Serotta can again be added to the list of bikes that people talk about with emotion, and envy as they do with the others.

So welcome to this forum... I am excited to see what you can do with Serotta!

-Robb

[dekindy]

Welcome and congratulations. Sincerely hope you can make Serotta successful again.

You can do a search and get a large number of responses over the last couple of years regarding how forumites view Serotta and lots of strategy advice. Sure there is not anything that you do not already know.

A recent thread on waiting lists to the best of my memory did not include anyone waiting for a Serotta and there have been very few owners start threads in the image gallery; I was going to say none but there is a recent one on a 2012 Meivici.

[William]

Hello Bill,

You just said "Hello" to a good group of people and a great fan base to reach out to.
Among this audience you'll find group of passionate cyclists that includes many hardcore Serotta fans. You'll also find some people that were former fans of the brand that have fallen out of love that may once again become enamored with the brand.

You'll also get a lot of public advice, PMs and emails from us as 90% of us (like most people on internet forums) know almost everything there is to know about business that we've never run.

In all seriousness though I just read your bio and I'm really excited about the skill set that you are bringing to the company. Of course your experience founding and running a company that deals with highly technical devices is fantastic but I'm damn excited about having someone with a serious bike racing background at the helm. Of course Ben Serotta did some amazing things for American cycling and bike building but the industry as a whole and brand building has changed a bit and you are going to bring something new to the table.

I've felt for years that Serotta has a brand that can fill an gap that has opened up in American cycling. There is a place for company that can produce handmade, high performance, custom and race bikes (Then again I thought that ABG could have done this with Merlin). Sure there are a lot of small builders who make great bikes but not with Serotta's resources.

There are people like me who want a well-built race frame that is made of metal (Ti), in America, that will have a short build time, and made by a company with the infrastructure to back it up with a decent warranty. And oh yeah, have it cost less than a decent used car.

No everyone wants a carbon Trek or a bike that is made in the Far East for an Italian company with big sponsorship money.

Serotta used to have quite the competition cache before it came to be known as "Doctors & Dentists Bike".

I hope that you choose to reintroduce Serotta as a performance/competition bike and let this trickle down to the rest of the brand. Contrary to what some people think it isn't just the 20 year olds who want to be on the bike that the racers ride. I've seen a hell of a lot of doctors and dentists on Madones and Colnagos who bought them because they are the bikes that racers ride.

For a long time Serottas were the bike that many of the guys I knew were lusting for but they lost that appeal over the years. There is now a perceived a coolness that IF, Seven, Moots, Vanilla and now Firefly has that seems to be elusive of Serotta (I'm leaving out the great brands like Kirk, Sachs and Strong off this list because of their smaller size). I believe that with the correct branding including getting some new bikes under the right people Serotta can again be added to the list of bikes that people talk about with emotion, and envy as they do with the others.

So welcome to this forum... I am excited to see what you can do with Serotta!

-Robb

Well said! I remember the days of affordable Serotta Race iron that filled the USCF ranks in the PCNW. It would be great to see that again. Best of luck on your new gig!:)





William

[SpokeValley]

Welcome, Bill. Nice intro, too! Your Mom did a great job on the press release...gold plated.

[Ahneida Ride]

Bill

Great to see ya posting here ... really ! ....

Be careful ... I mosey by the factory from time to time. :eek:
Make sure you tell Kim that you are unavailable! :banana:

[1centaur]

Welcome and congratulations. Sincerely hope you can make Serotta successful again.

You can do a search and get a large number of responses over the last couple of years regarding how forumites view Serotta and lots of strategy advice.

Let's put it this way, if you don't do that search you're not serious, and if you do that search you'll never have to ask us again what needed fixing :)

[ckamp]

Welcome to the forum!

[false_Aest]

1) I would like Serotta to partner with Kawasaki to make bitchin lawnmower bicycles.


2) I would also like to be able to afford a Serotta again. To put this in context, I was 19 when I purchased my "bottom of the line" Serotta in 2000. It was reasonable affordable at that point. I cannot, for the life of me, justify the price of a Serotta today even though my purchasing power has increased significantly.


3) I am willing to pay more for a US made product. But I am not willing to pay more for a US made product and then pay a mark-up for the perceived value of a US made product.

[brownm68]

Welcome Bill!!:banana:

[Joel]

Welcome aboard!

Do lean into this group.

Many of us are heavily invested (emotionally and dollars) in helping ensure the future success of the brand!

[Elefantino]

Bill:

I think what you need now, instead of that Army kit, is a new with tags Serotta forum kit in Race XL. A must for every Serottan.

Call me.

[Gat64]

1) i would like serotta to partner with kawasaki to make bitchin lawnmower bicycles.

-1


2) i would also like to be able to afford a serotta again. To put this in context, i was 19 when i purchased my "bottom of the line" serotta in 2000. It was reasonable affordable at that point. I cannot, for the life of me, justify the price of a serotta today even though my purchasing power has increased significantly.

+1


3) i am willing to pay more for a us made product. But i am not willing to pay more for a us made product and then pay a mark-up for the perceived value of a us made product.
+1

[William]

William

[oldpotatoe]

Let's put it this way, if you don't do that search you're not serious, and if you do that search you'll never have to ask us again what needed fixing :)

What he said. Do a search, maybe with a mod's help, because there is a lot of corporate knowledge about bicycles, bicycle industry and retail bicycle industry, on this forum.

To ignore 'some' of it, well you do it at serotta's risk...because, I'm sure you know, serotta isn't the healthiest bike frame maker in the US..in a sea of many healthy bike frame makers. Big, successful, best year ever, deal with bike shops, not direct, bike frame makers.

[jlwdm]

And there is a lot of ridiculous advice for Serotta on this forum.

You have been successful in a lot of areas and I look forward to Serotta benefiting from your skills.

I am disappointed about the number of members trying to give you advice in response to your first post on the forum. We should all be happy that you are reaching out to the forum.

Jeff

[rbtmcardle]

And there is a lot of ridiculous advice for Serotta on this forum.

You have been successful in a lot of areas and I look forward to Serotta benefiting from your skills.

I am disappointed about the number of members trying to give you advice in response to your first post on the forum. We should all be happy that you are reaching out to the forum.

Jeff


If I am not mistaken, that's what he offered.. A direct line of communication thru this forum?

[firerescuefin]

And there is a lot of ridiculous advice for Serotta on this forum.

You have been successful in a lot of areas and I look forward to Serotta benefiting from your skills.

I am disappointed about the number of members trying to give you advice in response to your first post on the forum. We should all be happy that you are reaching out to the forum.

Jeff

Ive got to ask. Did you read his original post?

[spiderman]

First--go Navy/beat army
Second--glad to hear you're an every day rider...
That's perfect...so if you make a tour de shops
And have expedition co on your list
You'll have a place to stay and a very warm
Welcome from our bunch
Third--what about the bike equivalent
Of the ulfberht sword...if you really are
The rusty lion you'll know what I mean!
And obtw...rudder duty is awesome stuff...
Enjoy every minute of it!

[Fixed]

Welcome congratulations on the new job
Where the legend lives
Cheers

[false_Aest]

Welcome congratulations on the new job
Where the legend lives
Cheers


I give up, where?


Texas.

or Florida.

Probably Austin or Gainesville with Hot Water Music. I hope its Gainesville.

[Fixed]

[QUOTE=false_Aest;1228194]I give up, where?


Texas.

or Florida.

Probably Austin or Gainesville with Hot Water Music. I hope its
They still make the legend

[Fixed]

I give up, where?


Texas.

or Florida.

Probably Austin or Gainesville with Hot Water Music. I hope its Gainesville.

http://serotta.com/bicycles/legend-se/
This legend
Cheers

[fourflys]

Welcome!

My brother was Class of ’87 at the Point... Go Black Knights!

[I Want Sachs?]

Welcome.

Another vote for price range that is not double of comparable frames. I would be happy to pay 20% more than a comparable bike made by big box company, but not at double of the price. Upcharge of Lexus over nicely appointed Toyota for example.

Bring back the cool MTB crowd. 29er hardtails are the staples. Titanium is perfect for hardtails, but not at huge premium over the nice carbons by Specialized or Scott. Prices of Moots, Seven, IF, or Firefly are pushing it already, so don't expect Serotta to bring in more than those ranges though. When volume is small, can't push that margin up otherwise the demand will drop even faster, and so will the brand recognition.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

[I Want Sachs?]

Sorry for more comments.

Can't understand why a custom bike company needs to make SG. All bikes should be built to match the need of the person ordering. However, if philosphy is similar to Sachs where 55cm should handle a certain way, then make it only Serotta geometry and take it or leave it without availability of SE. Otherwise they are all SEs with some people have no preference and just let you run spec you want.

I do like the simplification of steel, ti, ti-carb, and carb, and I like Legend, Ottrott, Colorado, and Meivici names, but come up with something more romantic for the MTBs than TiMax or Max IT. Perhaps bring back the name Odile or Desolation.

Back to pricing. Lots of good custom builders. Example, Strong Bikes have whole range of bikes including steel, ti, and carbon as well. Need to justify why would anyone pay more than those prices. Perhaps need to "discount" a little from those price points to have people buy in to mass production process rather than a builder dedicated to the customer.

[TopQuark]

"The national recession that began four years ago took a heavy toll on sales of Serotta’s handcrafted, custom-made bikes. Sales plummeted from 2,000 to 700 bikes per year.

In 2011, Ben Serotta put his Geyser Road manufacturing facility on the market and began looking for a smaller location. However, this year’s acquisition has brought in new financial backing. The Geyser Road facility is no longer for sale."

Tough challenge ahead of you. Good luck.

[monkeybanana86]

This is great! Happy to see this post.

[carlucci1106]

First off, it is nice to see someone new who is not going to get their post-count up to the level they need to post in Classifieds the first day *actually poking fun at the concept as well as those who are so annoyed by it*:rolleyes:

But, in relative seriousness, this is quite a nice gesture, Bill, and I am pleased that you have identified, first, where Serotta's loyal customer base resides, at least cybernetically.

I am half-tempted to post my Serotta CSI, but I feel I have done it gratuitously enough already.

I am a relatively new Serotta owner; just this season in fact. But I have LOVED every minute of riding on this bike. Those that say you should bring back the CSI have a damn good point: there is nothing more sexy than a lugged, traditional geometry steed that all-out races in the same league as bikes coming out today from production and custom sources. The Colorado model (though I have never ridden one) doesn't have the same mystique.

Other forumites have said some great things:
*pricing is a little wack
*the decals...what's the deal here? It's not like people are selling fake serottas like they are Pinarello Dogmas

My two cents:
* I know you have test rides at events, but is there a way to ensure that Serotta dealers have more than 2 Serottas to test ride? I live in BFE New Mexico. If I want to test ride an Ottrott, I know of one shop that has 1 Ottrott in a 56. I ride a 50.

Bill, welcome to the forum. As you can proabaly tell, we are a persnickety, discerning group with a love for great bikes. And that is the kind of person who buys a Serotta. Ask anything and I'm sure you'll get a plethora of info faster than you want it :p

[Lionel]

Welcome here. I hope you can find the right business model to make Serotta successful again.

[clweed]

First off, it is nice to see someone new who is not going to get their post-count up to the level they need to post in Classifieds the first day *actually poking fun at the concept as well as those who are so annoyed by it:p

:)

[93legendti]

Hi Bill. Glad Serotta is alive and kicking. My Ottrott ST is my favorite bike of all time. I no longer have a Legend ST, but that is my second favorite bike and on my radar for a ti bike.

[rwsaunders]

Best of luck at the helm. As you have been involved with starting and managing a successful business, I hope that your passion for both the bike and the brand serves you well. The others that have trusted you to turn things around for Ben and the group certainly have great expectations, so here's to you as well.:banana:

[54ny77]

Welcome and good luck righting the ship.

One word: price.

Serotta to me is heritage, superb craftsmanship and a uniquely American story...but it's all at an absolutely ridiculous price in today's market.

Just got me a custom steel by a renowned U.S. builder, and I would've been more than happy to support my local Serotta dealer and buy a Serotta at a slight premium, but no way at 2x the price.

Maybe help us understand what Serotta's mission is. Whatever it is, make sure you cultivate a young buyer generation along the way. Sorry but that ain't gonna happen with $5k+ entry point frames. Those buyers who you seem to be chasing now will be dead, broke or simply no longer buying at some point, and the younger generations will have been weaned on cheap carbon ridden by pro teams. To them, 7-11 is where they buy slurpees, not where the U.S. cycling scene exploded on the international stage while riding Serottas.

[oldpotatoe]

My two cents:
* I know you have test rides at events, but is there a way to ensure that Serotta dealers have more than 2 Serottas to test ride? I live in BFE New Mexico. If I want to test ride an Ottrott, I know of one shop that has 1 Ottrott in a 56. I ride a 50.



As a bike shop, sometimes you just can't have a size run of all models in a certain brand. Too expensive. Say 4 models, 3 sizes each, 12 bikes, each is say, wholesale average about $4000 or so-$48,000 or so, lots of $. Bike shops pay for their demo fleet. If the brand is moving well, then a bike shop can expand the demo fleet. What Moots does is if they have a really big or really small bike in their demo fleet, they will send it out for a test ride.

Sometimes, like a custom suit, you have to trust the fitter, builder, assembler. I guarantee every bike I sell, If they don't like it, I will refund their $. It has happened only once in 12 years.

But a bike frame maker can 'require' a bike shop to have a certain number of demos on the floor..but even if they don't sell well, still require that number the next year. Great way to get a frame dropped from a bike shop..

Along with selling direct in the bike shop's area.

[TimS]

I have 2 Serottas, a 2000 Atlanta and a 2002 Legend ti TT. Riding a bike has changed my life and every ride of that change has been on a Serotta. I have been riding now for 12 years and every inch of the road has been on one of these two bikes.

A daunting task I know, but increase cycling awareness, the benefits and the thrill, and you increase the pool of potential buyers. It is a lot like increasing the tax revenue base as opposed to simply raising taxes (the price).

Share the same joy that we on this board get everytime we ride a bike! Then as they say "if you build it, they will come."

Tim

[dbrk]

Mr Watkins,
Upon a time I contributed with great enthusiasm to this conversation that centered on Serotta bicycles and, as the forum still does today, continues to include a larger circle of interests extending to other brands. My primary qualification is enthusiast but I can say that I've owned a Serotta since at least 1991 and have cared about bicycles since forever young. I've been around the block a few times and I'm opinionated.

You certainly know more about Serotta's financial issues than anyone here but from an enthusiast's point of view, this company is now a complete basket case. There is not one bike on the website that enthuses me, rather I cringe. I see nothing from the design or performance point of view that speaks to the heritage of racing, leaving aside a price structure that means to compete with the most expensive offerings from the industry.

The utter deterioration of design comes from the company's philosophy to hand fit and construction over to a program that wastes time, produces absurd results, and caters to the whims of "riders" led by amateurs posing as pros. So long as this "have it your way" plus dealers "fit lab" program reigns, you will continue to have bikes as ugly to see as they are poorly designed.

Suggestion one: look at a Serotta fit chart circa 1992, before this custom folly, and build those bikes, insisting that custom is the exception not the rule.

Next, revamping the design means a complete overhaul of the offerings. Again. It all has to be even more simple than it is. Serotta still thinks it can build every kind of bike in model configurations that confuse even the most avid website obsessed bike geek. Go to three bikes, max: carbon, ti, and steel bikes. SIMPLE, with fewer options and a closer attention to "This is what WE think bicycles should be." Use Serotta's legend to build bikes YOUR way and with VERY LIMITED paint and design options.

Last, restructure the costs and if you can't then just build TWO bikes -and try to sell the simplest for less. Two signature bikes: one ti, one steel. (Carbon has never been Serotta's design forte apparently; from the beginning the MeiVici has been ugly, overwrought, and over priced.) Dropping the CSi with a steel fork was to lose your signature. SELL it, don't treat it like nostalgia. There's nothing about a steel bike that is antiquated if you explain it properly.

There is nothing on the current website that speaks to Serotta now as a bike for anyone but unfit old guys. You need a do-over, a complete brand overhaul that gets back to basics. I have no confidence that this company has the slightest clue what it is doing any longer. And that's been for quite a few years now.

Good luck, I hope you get advice completely contrary to what Serotta has followed in the recent past and take things in an entirely different direction.

Once enthusiast for Serotta, now not so much.
Douglas Brooks aka dbrk

[Nooch]

Bill,

Welcome aboard! I've heard much about you from my boss, about your comeback last year, I've read your blog, and you're a welcome addition!

I got interested in bikes a few years ago when I'd realized I'd gained too much weight and needed to make some changes. Riding with a local shop ended up with me working for them part-time, and they happen to be the first serotta dealership. I would stare for hours at the frames hanging from the ceiling, thinking about when in the course of life I'd ever have a chance of owning one -- after all, I'm 28, work two jobs, have a young family to support, and really, I should never think of spending on a bike what many spend on a car.

I recently heard that Trek had a bit of an initiative to put their bikes under local racers, to be seen at the amatuer level... I thought it was genius... Maybe Serotta might consider this down the line, coming up with a price point and a "Joe Racer" build to accompany it. A metal bike that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, that can be banged around in a four corner crit week after week and garner exposure for the brand.. Who knows...

Half my teammates race on Serotta's -- but their the over 40 crowd who can afford it...

[davids]

Dear Mr. Watkins,

Welcome and good luck to you.

While out cycling in suburban Boston last weekend, a good friend of mine had an encounter with a gentleman named Andrew Klopfer. Mr. Klopfer claimed that he and two partners had just purchased Serotta.

Mr. Klopfer was very interested in hearing why another cyclist in the group had purchased from a competing brand, local to Boston, and he claimed that they wanted to take Serotta in a similar direction. He also said that they were interested in marketing more to women, and wanted to build bikes in a Boston suburb.

This is a fascinating report, and since it coincides with your ascension as Serotta CEO I am very interested in hearing your reaction to Mr. Klopfer’s comments.

Thanks,

[sevencyclist]

Hi Bill,

Serotta forum had an offshoot that became "Across the Hall" and more input can be had there if you are interested.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/serotta-purchased-29708.html

[false_Aest]

Hi Bill,

Serotta forum had an offshoot that became "Across the Hall" and more input can be had there if you are interested.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/serotta-purchased-29708.html

*snicker*

[Tom]

I don't know if this adds anything but here's my perspective -

I ride an unpainted Legend nearly every day year round. I went into the people at Blue Sky and said "I want a bike I can ride all day in any condition that I won't bum out when I scratch it like I do with the CSi. Plus, I think I want to be lower because I generally don't ride with anyone in front of me and when the wind blows, I suck."

They drew it, you guys built it and I ride it. That was nearly ten years ago.

At the core of the thing, though, is just a bike frame. A really good frame, one that can take pretty good whacks and shrug them off, but just a bike frame. The sad part is that if it gets folded up by a car and the driver isn't buying, I'm probably not calling you guys. I can't afford it.

Every time I get on the CSi I am amazed again at just how much fun that bike is. You can't go slow on that bike, it won't let you. If you need a recovery day don't get on it.

I agree with the guys that say simplify, cut prices back to where you can keep the lights on and sell more frames, and get back into the marketing where when you go to a race somebody is on your bike and on the podium too.

[helmut]

Get younger people interested in the brand again.
Go back to the roots - racing heritage.
The brand is just not cool, and pricing it in exceess of every other company out there will not make it cool.
Figure out a way to rebuild your trust with dealers after these seemingly yearly shake ups at the company.
Speaking of the shake ups: stop the madness - pick a direction and stick to it.
And finally, good luck.

[zandrrr]

Is it realistic to suggest Serotta "get back into racing"? Mass-produced cheap aluminum and cheap carbon tend to dominate grassroots racing. With Serotta's pricing structure, how can they afford to support even a small race team? How is Serotta going to compete with Cannondale? And will any racers want to ride what are, at least in some respects, dated designs? No tapered head tubes, no BB30 - things that don't matter at all to me but have been sold as necessary for racey frame stiffness.

Legitimate questions here, not trolling.

[texbike]

Bill,

Welcome to the forum and your new role.

I hate to admit that I feel this way, but I honestly believe that the Serotta brand is dead. While the company was mucking around with distractions (already high-lighted in this thread), the market has moved on. IMO, there really isn't a place for the company in the market today.

Just look at the competition and ask yourself "What is the Serotta advantage?". As you are aware, a prospective buyer has many options today. There are a TON of extremely good, competitively-priced stock bikes available (Cannondale, Specialized, Trek, Cervelo, Fuji, etc). There is also a thriving (and over-subscribed) hand-built market that offers beautifully crafted options at significantly less cost in every material than what Serotta currently has (Kirk, Moots, Strong, Seven, Crumpton, etc).

So, my question is: What is Serotta's value prop in the current market? My answer: There ISN'T one. So, why would someone pay a significant premium for a brand that no longer offers any real advantage over other stock or custom options. Unfortunately, I honestly don't know where Serotta fits at this point.

My suggestion is to decide WHO your market is and aggressively pursue that group. It may be too late and too expensive to pursue the "racer" crowd that has moved on to other options. At this point, the pink shorts and yellow shirt crowd may be your best target market. If so, focus on that demographic and don't look back.

Regardless, best of luck in your new role. Unfortunately, I think you're going to need it. :(

Texbike

[avalonracing]

Is it realistic to suggest Serotta "get back into racing"? Mass-produced cheap aluminum and cheap carbon tend to dominate grassroots racing. With Serotta's pricing structure, how can they afford to support even a small race team? How is Serotta going to compete with Cannondale? And will any racers want to ride what are, at least in some respects, dated designs? No tapered head tubes, no BB30 - things that don't matter at all to me but have been sold as necessary for racey frame stiffness.

Legitimate questions here, not trolling.

Good racers win races, not BB30 bottom brackets. And cheap carbon and aluminum dominate grassroots racing because it is inexpensive and disposable. When I started racing as a Cat5 I was on a Ti Serotta and got a a less expensive aluminum bike because I didn't want to destroy a Serotta that I couldn't afford to replace.

But what I am talking about is recapturing some of that cred that Serotta used to have that is now being given to rabidly supported brands like Independent Fabrication, Seven and Vanilla. Those brands don't dominate the racing scene with enormous Trek/C-Dale/Specialized sponsorships but their riders are pretty fanatical about the brands. Ever notice the IF stickers on some of the cars at group rides, cross or MTB races? Those people LOVE the bikes. Is it because they are superior to a Serotta? Hell no. It's about perception.

I still remember a story from over ten years ago when I raced my Ti Legend. Another racer (who worked in a shop that was a Serotta dealer) said about my Legend, "Man, that's a sweet bike but it's not a real race bike. I would race my Trek and I would use that Serotta as my 'Crusin and chillin bike'." I laughed at his comment... and to this day one of my friends and I still like to joke about that Crusin' and chillin' line.

Brands can be reinvented. Hell, I know performance car guys who were BMW drivers who now buy the new Cadillacs. Serotta never lost its credibility the way brands like Schwinn have. It's not like it has to climb out of a hole. It just needs to recapture the magic. It isn't going to do that with crazy new hydro-formed headtube designs but it can do it by making cool bikes that don't explode on impact, bikes that are built by craftsmen who love bikes, and designed by people who know how to make modern performance bikes out of metal (like Tom Kellogg did with my Merlin Works CR).

[SamIAm]

I really hate Serotta's pricing, but I also know that premium branded products command premium pricing regardless of whether or not tangible product differences exist.

The key, of course, is to have a premium brand. Serotta's brand has eroded considerably over the years and its damn hard to restore it, but it looks like you may have the right background to do so. Best of luck.

By the way, the two Serotta offerings that still have some brand appeal, at least to me, are the CSI and Legend.

[SamIAm]

One other thing, there have been several attempts by Serotta to reach out to the board members here in the past. The thing that seems to characterize all of those attempts are the one sided nature of the conversation. Initial post, lots of forum responses, silence from the original poster.

[jr59]

One other thing, there have been several attempts by Serotta to reach out to the board members here in the past. The thing that seems to characterize all of those attempts are the one sided nature of the conversation. Initial post, lots of forum responses, silence from the original poster.

Good point here Rob!

[djg]

Welcome to the board and thanks for your post and the invitation to an open channel of communication.

Many of us here know first hand that Serotta has built seriously great bikes over the years and believe that it can still. Many have remained upbeat about the brand, and the bikes, even as we've been concerned about this or that report on the company, or about variations obvious at the consumer end -- not so much in the quality or integrity of the frames, but in what's available through what channels, and at what prices.

Again, welcome and thanks -- a little outreach and consideration are always welcome. And best of luck with the new gig: great bikes at the gateway to the Addies . . . could be worse.

[John H.]

Hi,
As others have said, you need to bring bavck the racing roots. When I started racing in the late 80's Serotta was the PREMIUM US racing bike.

Bring back the CSI. Maybe a Tig'd Colorado too- maybe look into updating the tubing even more.

Offer an all Ti Legend Ti at a reasonable price. At $5,000+ without fork it is not close to its competitors.

Sell to smaller fit gurus. The company I work for looked into Serotta recently but the buy in was about 5 bikes with significant floor stock.

[rustylion]

Thanks for the kind words and warm welcome.

I am going to first offer a "disclaimer" and then begin responding to some of your questions/comments.

First, what I know today is that I don't know much. I have been a Serotta user and a biking enthusiast since the 70's...but always from the outside as a consumer. Now, I am on the "inside" but am drinking from the fire hydrant in order to gain knowledge and become valuable to you. I will do my best to respond intelligently but may have to answer "I don't know at this moment but will get you an answer."

Second, all of you have read/heard of Serotta's situation in the last couple of years so you know I have lots and lots to do here. But, listening and learning from our customers is one of the things I love to do. So, I will do my utmost to make time each and every day to listen and contribute here.

Ok. A few things you wrote me:

Stickers. I think you mean decals. You want them if you can show us a serial nr, right? I don't know what we are doing re: decals nor do I have any sort of answer to this but will research and respond.

A return of the CSi. I decided to take us out of steel last month. I do not want to bring a bike to the market that is so outrageously priced that it embarrasses us. Premium price because I think we earn a premium for reasons I can share some other time (or for reasons you already know), then, yes. But, when we are not competitive in manufacturing cost then I want to focus us on what we can do well and bring you product you can value. Would I love to get us back into steel in the future? Absolutely. It is our heritage and it is a great material to work with. But, it's not something I can do now.

Pricing. I have spent the last month on pricing which as you told me, was not competitive or logical. We are announcing new pricing on all models this week (SE and SG) for frames, frame sets and complete bikes. It is my first shot at this so I would say I am ready to hear your feedback and then maybe, move us to a Phase II later....

Thanks, Paceline Forum community, for your input. I am listening....bill (aka rusty lion)

[rwsaunders]

Dear Mr. Watkins,

Welcome and good luck to you.

While out cycling in suburban Boston last weekend, a good friend of mine had an encounter with a gentleman named Andrew Klopfer. Mr. Klopfer claimed that he and two partners had just purchased Serotta.

Mr. Klopfer was very interested in hearing why another cyclist in the group had purchased from a competing brand, local to Boston, and he claimed that they wanted to take Serotta in a similar direction. He also said that they were interested in marketing more to women, and wanted to build bikes in a Boston suburb.

This is a fascinating report, and since it coincides with your ascension as Serotta CEO I am very interested in hearing your reaction to Mr. Klopfer’s comments.

Thanks,

I spotted this the other day in a VC web newsletter that I read. It would appear that the new owner is seeking additonal investors or perhaps a sale. The distribution model and Fat City licensing references are interesting.

https://gust.com/c/bradway_capital_gab_serotta

[zandrrr]

Good racers win races, not BB30 bottom brackets. And cheap carbon and aluminum dominate grassroots racing because it is inexpensive and disposable. When I started racing as a Cat5 I was on a Ti Serotta and got a a less expensive aluminum bike because I didn't want to destroy a Serotta that I couldn't afford to replace.

I agree with these points. As I said, I personally don't care a lick about tapered headtubes or BB30 but I'm not a racer. My impression is that these things matter to amateur racers, whether they can actually notice the difference or not.

You said it yourself: when you started racing you got a cheap aluminum bike. How can Serotta compete with that? They're not going to start making budget $1k aluminum race frames. No amateur racer is going to buy a Serotta to race - they're way too expensive, and if the racer could afford one they'll just buy a Tarmac or SuperSix anyway.

I have no data but I'll make up some numbers. Let's say there are 100 people in an amateur race. Of those, how many are on something other than an aluminum or carbon mass-production bike? Fewer than 10? Serotta is supposed to compete with IF, Seven, etc for those few racers?

That's why I ask if "reclaiming their racing heritage" is a viable option. I think that's a very hard road for them but I'm just a member of the peanut gallery. :hello:

But what I am talking about is recapturing some of that cred that Serotta used to have that is now being given to rabidly supported brands like Independent Fabrication, Seven and Vanilla. Those brands don't dominate the racing scene with enormous Trek/C-Dale/Specialized sponsorships but their riders are pretty fanatical about the brands. Ever notice the IF stickers on some of the cars at group rides, cross or MTB races? Those people LOVE the bikes. Is it because they are superior to a Serotta? Hell no. It's about perception.

Agree again but see my point above. And I don't see Serotta seriously increasing their presence in the CX or MTB worlds any time soon. Recapturing that je ne sais quoi is key, I agree. I just don't know how they do it, and I have trouble seeing how racing is part of that.

Brands can be reinvented. Hell, I know performance car guys who were BMW drivers who now buy the new Cadillacs. Serotta never lost its credibility the way brands like Schwinn have. It's not like it has to climb out of a hole. It just needs to recapture the magic. It isn't going to do that with crazy new hydro-formed headtube designs but it can do it by making cool bikes that don't explode on impact, bikes that are built by craftsmen who love bikes, and designed by people who know how to make modern performance bikes out of metal (like Tom Kellogg did with my Merlin Works CR).

I could be wrong but I don't think most people outside of this forum care about metal bikes these days. When I showed up with my titanium Fierte to the group ride the first time most of the guys there didn't bat an eye. I bet most of them don't know what Serotta is. Heck, I didn't know anything about Serotta when I bought the bike.

Sorry, I am not trying to be argumentative. I just see a lot of hurdles and no obvious way to get past them.

[mcteague]

10 years ago I was in the market for a custom ti frame. The leading contenders were: Serotta, Seven and Moots. One look at Serotta's price list took them out of the running. Hopefully you will bring them more in line with your competition. I know Serotta used to think they were worth the extra amount but time, and the decline of the company, have shown otherwise. No question; they make a great bike, just not really better than Seven\Moots\IF IMO.

Tim

[fiamme red]

10 years ago I was in the market for a custom ti frame. The leading contenders were: Serotta, Seven and Moots. One look at Serotta's price list took them out of the running. Hopefully you will bring them more in line with your competition. I know Serotta used to think they were worth the extra amount but time, and the decline of the company, have shown otherwise. No question; they make a great bike, just not really better than Seven\Moots\IF IMO.One of the reasons Serottas became more expensive than the other boutique brands was vertical integration: making their own carbon tubes in Poway, designing and producing all the small parts in their own CNC facility, butting and swaging their own titanium tubes, etc.

[William]

Honestly, one of the biggest hurdles to over come is right here....

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=113817


It isn't that Serotta quality really started to go down hill, it's that the competition has become much better. While Serotta pricing went up, it's loyal customer pool slowly got priced out and found that there were other builders out there to fill the void with great quality and palatable pricing.

Combine that with vacating the racing scene...out of sight out of mind...and a lack of a clear direction to date and it's a real uphill battle. And, when you have former loyal followers saying there is a problem (even if their opinions may not be correct), you have a problem.

I think most people who know the brand wish them the best. It's just that they've seen light elsewhere so getting them back ain't going to be easy.






William

[William]

One of the reasons Serottas became more expensive than the other boutique brands was vertical integration: making their own carbon tubes in Poway, designing and producing all the small parts in their own CNC facility, butting and sawging their own titanium tubes, etc.

And just to ask the question: What does the end user really care if they get their tubes from Enve, Reynolds, Columbus, (insert other Mfr names) or make their own? Is it that important to them to pay that kind of premium?

Just curious what people's thoughts are?



William

[zandrrr]

And just to ask the question: What does the end user really care if they get their tubes from Enve, Reynolds, Columbus, (insert other Mfr names) or make their own? Is it that important to them to pay that kind of premium?


I didn't know they made their own tubes and it doesn't matter a bit to me at all. But then again, it's unlikely I'd ever buy a brand new Serotta. Even at their pre-inflated prices that kind of money is too dear to spend on a bike for me.

[dekindy]

[QUOTE=zandrrr;1228622]

I could be wrong but I don't think most people outside of this forum care about metal bikes these days. When I showed up with my titanium Fierte to the group ride the first time most of the guys there didn't bat an eye. I bet most of them don't know what Serotta is. Heck, I didn't know anything about Serotta when I bought the bike.

QUOTE]

I can only add one data point of experience but it is totally counter to this. When I started going to a Club training ride attended by both young racers that were in the fast group and old guys like me that were in a slower group; one of the young racers commented that he would really like to have a nice comfortable lugged steel bike like my Schwinn Paramount to for an everyday training bike and only ride his modern carbon bike for races. Now it is probably not practical for Serotta to price a steel bike for training only but there might be a market for young racers. Advertise the comfort and crashworthiness of a steel bike and maybe there is a market out there for young racers that are tired of spending so much money on carbon bikes that come in a limited number of sizes and one good crash makes the structural integrity suspect even if there is not obvious damage. Or not!:) But it might be worth exploring. Seems like Serotta had a relationship with Carmichael training regarding their trainers, who are also racers?, and a master's racing team for HSG's? Wonder how those went?

[zennmotion]

Hi All,

My name is Bill Watkins and am a new member of The Paceline Forum. You may have heard that I am, also, the new CEO at Serotta Competition Bicycles and Great American Bicycle Company.

There was a recent press release sent out about me as well as a bunch of other official announcements. Wow! They made me sound so absolutely wonderful that I would have thought my mother wrote them (Thanks, Mom!). Regardless of what they may say, just know I am a pretty simple guy who loves the sport of cycling, loves the thrill of cycling competition, loves the game of business, loves Serotta for what it was (and can be)...and yes, my dear, loves his wife. So, nothing fancy or special about me - just plain old (pretty darn old), jeans and T-shirt Bill.

Today, I want to officially open a direct channel to me thru this forum. I want to hear your thoughts, comments, opinions, BIG ideas and anything else Serotta-related. I may not know what I am committing to but let me say that I will do my best to address each issue and to personally respond to anything you send me.

I am excited to be here in Saratoga Springs and to be able to open up this wonderful channel of communication with fellow passionate cyclists (and, I hope some Serotta owners, past and present). If you are ever in the Saratoga Springs area, let me invite you to come ride with me; I am out on the road enjoying cycling and my Serotta bike every day. Until then, I am here for you and look forward to our future connections.

Thanks and be well,
bill

Loves his Mom. Check.
Loves his country. Check.
Loves his wife. Check.
Hates cancer, loves Livestrong. Check.
Loves the "game of business". Oooh. nice one, remember that for next interview. Check.
Just plain old self-effacing in jeans and t-shirt. Check.
Marketing as "future connections". Check.

I'm not normally this cynical, but it is just a week to the election and this feels as genuine as the guy in the bowtie tapping on my door to hand me a flyer. Maybe just take a short pull, then try to not cross wheels until people have you figured out on your first group ride, hey? But, welcome. Really.

[mcteague]

One of the reasons Serottas became more expensive than the other boutique brands was vertical integration: making their own carbon tubes in Poway, designing and producing all the small parts in their own CNC facility, butting and swaging their own titanium tubes, etc.

Doesn't Seven do all that as well? Not sure about their carbon tubes but they claim to do their own ti tube butting.

Tim

[echelon_john]

Since you're asking for input:
Cutting and pasting your message verbatim to post in vsalon was poor form.

JC

[Aaron O]

Since you're asking for input:
Cutting and pasting your message verbatim to post in vsalon was poor form.

JC

Why is that poor form? He's soliciting information from, and communicating with, the most likely customers. They inhabit more than one forum.

Y'all are being a bit tough...the dude is trying to right a sail boat that we all love. He's letting us know that the "under new management" banner is up and he's reconnecting with his base.

Loves his Mom. Check.
Loves his country. Check.
Loves his wife. Check.
Hates cancer, loves Livestrong. Check.
Loves the "game of business". Oooh. nice one, remember that for next interview. Check.
Just plain old self-effacing in jeans and t-shirt. Check.
Marketing as "future connections". Check.

I'm not normally this cynical, but it is just a week to the election and this feels as genuine as the guy in the bowtie tapping on my door to hand me a flyer. Maybe just take a short pull, then try to not cross wheels until people have you figured out on your first group ride, hey? But, welcome. Really.

Yeah - how dare the new CEO of the company that this website used to be about reach out to us and self promote a brand that was the whole reason for this community. The nerve.

I don't really know what Serotta needs to do - I think the bicycle industry is a tough one to make money at and it's very much a labor of love for most involved. For that reason, I'm not cynical; I respect anyone who would take this project on. I can explain what I looked for when I picked a custom...my insight may not be the most valuable since I typically buy used and I likely won't buy a custom again, or at least not for a very long time (the one I have should be around for a good long while).

I wanted a relatively inexpensive bike made by someone experienced with fit and geometry. I wanted steel or ti because I'm pretty ignorant about CF and I'm generally a conservative buyer who sticks with what I know. I didn't really want to collaborate with my builder; I wanted to explain what I wanted to do, give him whatever measurements he needed, and have him use his knowledge to build the bike. If I really had valuable input, I wouldn't need a third party! I wanted some aesthetic options, but I also wanted my builder's input and advice in that department.

What I liked about my custom experience was that I didn't need to worry. The wait time was relatively short...it didn't require voluminous correspondence and the price came in where I wanted. It's a very traditional frame...nothing fancy and not very modern. I like that it has the color and feel that I wanted, but I also like that it's an expression of the builder's tastes and ideas. I almost see it like commissioning a bike - you pick your artist and let them paint. You don't micro-manage. I didn't feel the need to test ride a bike - that's why I'm getting a custom. It's tailored!

To my mind, Serotta's biggest problem in the past few years was instability. When things are unstable, buyers get nervous. I don't really care about podiums, sponsorship or marketing. I would want to be able to call someone and get a human being on the other end who can help me. If I had to guess what would differentiate Serotta from a Waterford, it would be innovation...and that usually has a cost associated with it. It's a small niche market, and there are already a lot of options in it. How does Serotta get that market back? I don't know...but starting with a top level builder and designer is probably the first step, along with a guy involved in the build process helping to answer the phones.

I really love the Koga Miyata website...it has lots of cool internet options where I can play with colors on different models and imagine what I want. I think it might be a neat idea to have a website with drag over options...carbon frame, 1 inch steerer, 1 1/4 steerer, drilled dropouts, internal routing, etc. Sort of make it seem like the user is building the bike and getting to see what it looks like holistically.

[echelon_john]

Poor form to cut and paste. If you want to be sincere/taken seriously, write something fresh for each place you post. Otherwise it's not a 'warm hello.' It's a form letter. That was my point; not that he shouldn't be posting.

As far as Serotta's problems, here's how I would prioritize them:
1. Product set; complicated, no differentiation, no relevant brand story on a product level
1. Pricing. As he acknowledged; moonshot pricing that isn't supported by value/differentiation selling into this economy=failure.
1. Website/social media strategy. Or utter lack thereof for the last 10 years.
1. Customer service, or lack thereof for the last 2 years.
1. Instability. Are they closing? Are they moving? Are they sold? Does Ben still work there? Too many questions. Not enough answers.

Speaking of which, IS Ben still working there? What's his role? What value is he adding at this point, and is he part of the strategy going forward?

[Aaron O]

He A: doesn't have a base Ben does
and B: is a venture capitalist therefore as trustworthy as a rattle snake.

Give me a break - the dude loves bikes or he wouldn't go near this. The word capitalist isn't always a dirty word.

[Aaron O]

Poor form to cut and paste. If you want to be sincere/taken seriously, write something fresh for each place you post. Otherwise it's not a 'warm hello.' It's a form letter. That was my point; not that he shouldn't be posting.

As far as Serotta's problems, here's how I would prioritize them:
1. Product set; complicated, no differentiation, no relevant brand story on a product level
1. Pricing. As he acknowledged; moonshot pricing that isn't supported by value/differentiation selling into this economy=failure.
1. Website/social media strategy. Or utter lack thereof for the last 10 years.
1. Customer service, or lack thereof for the last 2 years.
1. Instability. Are they closing? Are they moving? Are they sold? Does Ben still work there? Too many questions. Not enough answers.

Speaking of which, IS Ben still working there? What's his role? What value is he adding at this point, and is he part of the strategy going forward?

I disagree with the first part...the dude has a lot of work to do and I think it's impressive he took the time to do what he did. Sending an individualized letter to every forum isn't needed, at least to me; especially when he's communicating the same sentiment.

The second part I agree with.

As for the "Is Ben still There" question, I'm reminded of Ben and Jerry's ice cream...it really was about Ben and Jerry...and even after Jerry left, and after it was sold, they needed Ben and Jerry around for internal morale, ideas from the people who best understood the customers and for marketing. I definitely think, if possible, it would be desirable to have Ben play a consultant role; the more active the better.

[echelon_john]

No worries. But if you ask a social media specialist they will tell you that it's a mistake, and makes the sending organization look impersonal and tone-deaf.

I disagree with the first part...the dude has a lot of work to do and I think it's impressive he took the time to do what he did. Sending an individualized letter to every forum isn't needed, at least to me; especially when he's communicating the same sentiment.

The second part I agree with.

[zennmotion]

You sound a touch naive to me...
SEO of Serotta alienated customer base. Check
Try's to be trendy with pic on bike. Check
Boring business dude lacking passion for building. Check
No explicit plan for the future other than boring business dude. Check
Feels like mittens. Check
Will most likely be the death of Serotta much like ABC and Litespeed. Check
Able to get away with it because were middle class/upper middle-class white dudes. Check
Bain of bicycle industry that we'd wish would just leave. Check
Serotta now as fake as Specialized. Check

Well, I'll cop to naivete, but clearly my smarmy sarcasm was lost in translation. Check, mate!

[vjp]

As opposed to all the builders on both sides of the hall who build LOTS of bikes FOR venture capitalists? It's OK to take their money, but not for them to own a bike company? I don't think they raided Serotta, it is floundering and some new owners want to make it work.

Show some manners.

He A: doesn't have a base Ben does
and B: is a venture capitalist therefore as trustworthy as a rattle snake.

[William]

I disagree with the first part...the dude has a lot of work to do and I think it's impressive he took the time to do what he did. Sending an individualized letter to every forum isn't needed, at least to me; especially when he's communicating the same sentiment.



I wouldn't call it impressive. I would call it smart business. We all know this place was vastly underutilized for marketing purposes when it was owned by Serotta. As mentioned earlier, there were a few attempts but never any follow through. And one short attempt at over utilization led to the forming of another place in the ether that is the internet. One of the smartest and least costly ways to tap back in is to court the former base. It's not rocket science, just business....and as Bill said, he loves "the game of business". Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.






William

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe it's 'cuz it's election season..

[William]

Hey, I hope they turn it around and bring it back to it's former glory.





William

[jr59]

Hey, I hope they turn it around and bring it back to it's former glory.





William


I think we all do. At least we can agree on that.

It's the how part that gets difficult!

[nbrewste]

You sound a touch naive to me...
CEO of Serotta alienated customer base. Check
Try's to be trendy with pic on bike. Check
Boring business dude lacking passion for building. Check
No explicit plan for the future other than boring business dude. Check
Feels like mittens. Check
Will most likely be the death of Serotta much like ABC and Litespeed. Check
Able to get away with it because were middle class/upper middle-class white dudes. Check
Bain of bicycle industry that we'd wish would just leave. Check
Serotta now as fake as Specialized. Check

Well you sure sound like a pleasant person.

Have you looked at all into Mr. Watkins' background?

From what I've been able to dig up it seems fairly certain that cycling is (and was) a driving force in his life. The dude's got a masters national championship jersey, he's an ex-US cycling team member and was on the Olympic development team in the late 70's.

It also seems like he's got a knack for business.

Why wouldn't you want a passionate cyclist and businessman trying to jumpstart such a brand?

Saratogian article. (http://saratogian.com/articles/2012/10/22/news/doc508584834ee83004145653.txt?viewmode=default)

Race results. (http://www.usacycling.org/results/?compid=294788)

[nbrewste]

I see he's built lot of bikes, obvious heart and soul of other bike brands yup many good thing on the horizon.

Optimism is a wonderful thing!

Besides, criticism and cynicism for criticism's and cynicism's sake is not terribly productive.

[HenryA]

Lots of anger here for no reason that I can see. But much less than across the hall, thank goodness. What is it that bothers y'all so much? What gets your undies in a wad so fast on such a benign subject?

Bill,
Keep posting from time to time and let us know what's going on with Serotta. Better yet, join the conversation regularly.

[Ahneida Ride]

He A: doesn't have a base Ben does
and B: is a venture capitalist therefore as trustworthy as a rattle snake.

True .... But a VC risks their own frns ...

A "Bank" creates frns outa thin air using the Bernie Madoff scheme
they call "fractional reserve". Banks overbook 10 to 1.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Modern_Money_Mechanics.pdf

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and way into anger and rudeness for no reason.

Someone please give me a good reason not to lock this thread and send an apology to Mr. Watkins.

Agree with HenryA . . . What in HECK bothers you guys so much about Watkins saying hello? By all reasonable appearances he's made a sincere effort to simply say hi. Those of you who have given him such a rude reception--what on earth do you hope to accomplish?

Is it just that it's election season? . . . Sheesh.

BBD

[clweed]

It will be a sad day when Serotta eliminates steel from the lineup.


Before EPO.............There was SEROTTA The original performance advantage of American Cyclist

[nbrewste]

If you cannot handle criticism and cynicism don't publish anything publicly.

I can handle criticism and cynicism. What is more difficult to stomach, however, is your ad hominem bashing (it doesn't deserve to be called a critique) in this thread in particular.

Yes, Serotta is changing. What brand isn't? They are, undoubtedly, at a low point in their storied history and deserve some criticism for their failure to maintain the high standards they created for themselves.

But to be so critical and negative about a new CEO for simply being the new CEO is counterproductive and a total waste of time.

[pdmtong]

Hi Bill
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for opening the door to your office though the internet. There is a lot of work to do but I believe it can be done and wish for your success.
Paul
2005 Ottrott

[SamIAm]

I agree, but the a bike builder is not a commodity producer..

The fact that a VC is involved makes me sick....

What utter nonsense. Are you off your meds today?

[bluesea]

My impression is Serotta's last hold onto its former mojo was Kelly Bedford. A few months after he left I saw very little reason to continue to consider Serotta. Not that I haven't visited the Serotta website from time to time at long intervals and prepared to be disappointed, but still with a slight sense of hope.

[nighthawk]

Hi Bill...
Welcome to the forum! I'm excited to hear about the changes and hopefully forward momentum of a legendary bicycle maker. Have fun with it and keep us up to date on things.

-Chris

[Germany_chris]

What utter nonsense. Are you off your meds today?

I should be on meds..

but alas I'm not and venture capital in niche industries makes me sick..

I'd be like a VC supporting an artist, like the Catholic Church did during the renaissance.

[firerescuefin]

Ok, then I'd recommend you never read any post I make..

Follow pictures below

Chris...don't let "the man" get you down. :help:

I propose we just get away from the money standard and go back to bartering.

[clweed]

Chris...don't let "the man" get you down. :help:

I propose we just get away from the money standard and go back to bartering.

Dude,
He is ignoring you, you are talking to a brick wall. LOL

[Ahneida Ride]

My impression is Serotta's last hold onto its former mojo was Kelly Bedford. A few months after he left I saw very little reason to continue to consider Serotta. Not that I haven't visited the Serotta website from time to time at long intervals and prepared to be disappointed, but still with a slight sense of hope.

Kelly is out on his own and after an initial struggle (what new Bidnees is not?)
has a respectable back log of orders.

Let's hope the new CEO can introduce the dynamic changes needed to
return Serotta to a top brand name.

[christian]

but alas I'm not and venture capital in niche industries makes me sick..
I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but what type of capital(ists) do you think should invest in niche industries? Or should niche industries be frozen out of the capital markets altogether?

[Germany_chris]

I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but what type of capital(ists) do you think should invest in niche industries? Or should niche industries be frozen out of the capital markets altogether?

How about a collective of builders...

[Derailer]

As distasteful as I find the "Occupy Serotta" posts in this thread, I do think it's healthy and would encourage this thread to remain open.

Seems to me that Serotta's best option is to adopt the Parlee model -- custom US made carbon and Asian made frames in stock sizes. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that's the game plan. And if it isn't, you're welcome.

[William]

As distasteful as I find the "Occupy Serotta" posts in this thread, I do think it's healthy and would encourage this thread to remain open.

Seems to me that Serotta's best option is to adopt the Parlee model -- custom US made carbon and Asian made frames in stock sizes. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that's the game plan. And if it isn't, you're welcome.

I'm sure there is a chance it's been on the table.




William

[biker72]

Welcome Bill,
Just a little constructive criticism.

Serotta needs to get their pricing a little more competitive. I can get a fully equipped steel Seven for the same price as your Colorado frame & fork.

Your dealer network is almost nonexistent. No dealers here in Texas.

Hopefully your customer service has improved or is in the process of improving. I work at a bike shop that used to be a Serotta dealer. The same gripes I've read here on the forum were the same we had at the shop 8-10 years ago. No return phone calls...etc.

Serotta builds a good bike. It's just one I can't afford....:)

Good luck. I really hope Serotta survives...

[Liberace]

All the emotion this brand elicits speaks volumes to the potential it has in the marketplace. If any brand has a chance to re-energize itself and flourish, it is Serotta.

My armchair suggestions:

-focus on steel and ti with stock geometry and priced competitively
-focus on fork production and marketing

[r_mutt]

i don't know if this has been mentioned, but i think that serotta needs to find new customers- and by that, i mean they need to find a way to appeal to some younger customers before the core customers get too old to ride, and then it will be too late and serotta will have no customers!

whether that means a frame that's not out of reach of the finances of the younger crowd, sponsoring a local race team, a fully carbon bike- i don't know. what does the market research say? perhaps i'm way off base and there are 20-somethings who lust after serottas, but my guess is that there aren't!

[phcollard]

-focus on steel and ti with stock geometry and priced competitively


I agree! But Bill said already that steel is a no-no.

Care to explain Bill, please? I think that would be tremendous. Look at Cielo by Chris King. Small workshop. Nice frames. USA made. $1875. Stock geo. I bet they make profit on it and you can do that as well. But maybe that's not where you want the brand to go?

[William]

Please note everyone, constructive criticism and tough love is perfectly fine. I'm sure the OP expected a certain level of it considering the history. On the other hand rudeness and name calling will note be tolerated. There is no need to lock threads as long as everyone keeps a level head.

I hope Serotta can turn it around and I hope there will be more participation from Serotta in the future.




Best regards,
William

[Louis]

All the emotion this brand elicits speaks volumes to the potential it has in the marketplace.

Speaking of emotion, maybe they can get Lance to endorse and be part of the revival. Win - Win for both sides. ;)

[carlucci1106]

And will any racers want to ride what are, at least in some respects, dated designs? No tapered head tubes, no BB30 - things that don't matter at all to me but have been sold as necessary for racey frame stiffness.

Legitimate questions here, not trolling.

IMHO, tapered head tubes and BB30 look stupid, and serve no inherent purpose other than changing a standard that works fine (i.e. threaded BB, standard head tube). Stiffness? Give me a break. If you can flex a 1 1/8" head tube made of aluminum, you need to lose weight.

These, and other trends (like 31.8 stem clamps e.g.) are marketing ploys to try to make other systems look obsolete. They also really appeal to mountain bikers who ride C'Dales and such and are buying their first road bike. Cause it looks like it will hold up when they ride it like an MTB.

Serotta and other custom brands know better. You don't think Serotta still has the pulse on what makes a good race bike? Nonsense.

Also Old Potatoe, I am aware of how much it costs to keep a fleet of demos on the floor. I know I don't have the experience you do, but I have worked at two very good bike stores. So my question posed to Bill was from that perspective. They need to get people riding the bikes, even if it takes discounting the wholesale for a certain volume of order from the shop. I'm in no way saying they should require a minimum purchase. I agree with you that you should trust the experienced builder, but do the young riders believe in that like we do, those in "the know."

I showed up at my local race this year on a CSi with a 1" head tube and a quill stem. I kept up just fine, and had I been a little better, could've placed. I looked around and saw nothing but Specialized and Orbea. They plain bore me. I know everyone who saw me admired my frame. And it made me realize I am lucky to have such a nice bike :)

[oldpotatoe]

I agree! But Bill said already that steel is a no-no.

Care to explain Bill, please? I think that would be tremendous. Look at Cielo by Chris King. Small workshop. Nice frames. USA made. $1875. Stock geo. I bet they make profit on it and you can do that as well. But maybe that's not where you want the brand to go?

Cielo is a poor example only because they are direct, no?

Waterford is custom steel for $1500. Lugged for $1900. All custom, USA made.

There are many other examples of the more traditional bike frame model, traditional in the sense they are sold at dealers, dealers that have demo bikes. I have 6 steel waterford demos, 5 Moots.
I think a dealer network, that is protected, is essential.

[nm87710]

?

[1centaur]

Mention of mittens and Bain as if it's a negative and...nothing? Guess it's time for snide anti-Obama comments, if only I can think of a way to work them into a thread about hope for Serotta's future. Hmmm. Hope...change; nah, just doesn't feel organic somehow.

Must just be sensitive ol' me. I'll probably find a solution up in the menu somewhere. Let's see...

[Elefantino]

What's a Serotta??

Ban him!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5r3qUg0howY/TKachpvAazI/AAAAAAAAA1M/895JcVCWTNg/s1600/monty_python_witch.jpg






























;)

[zandrrr]

IMHO, tapered head tubes and BB30 look stupid, and serve no inherent purpose other than changing a standard that works fine (i.e. threaded BB, standard head tube). Stiffness? Give me a break. If you can flex a 1 1/8" head tube made of aluminum, you need to lose weight.

I agree that they are unnecessary and can look bad. I think BB30 is dumb and I'm indifferent to tapered head tubes. But I already ride a Serotta. How are you going to get someone who wants to buy a Tarmac to buy a Serotta instead?

Nowhere did I say I believe all the hype about the new standards, but the fact is when Joe Racer walks into the LBS, the salesperson can point out that a SuperSix is super-duper modulus carbon with BB30 and a tapered headtube. If the LBS even had a Serotta (and there's almost no chance they would), how would it compare in this uninformed buyer's mind? How do you sell that Serotta uses fancy metal tubing when most bikes sold today aren't even built with tubing?

I can't prove it but my gut tells me that most amateur racers want new technology (regardless of whether said technology is just hype), and Serotta doesn't offer it.

These, and other trends (like 31.8 stem clamps e.g.) are marketing ploys to try to make other systems look obsolete. They also really appeal to mountain bikers who ride C'Dales and such and are buying their first road bike. Cause it looks like it will hold up when they ride it like an MTB.

A bit conspiratorial but that's fine. (It's 2012 though - you're still on about 31.8mm stem clamps?) My point was Cannontrekcialized owns amateur and pro racing now. The times have changed. I just don't see how Serotta gets back to being the brand it was through racing. I don't think it can happen.

Serotta and other custom brands know better. You don't think Serotta still has the pulse on what makes a good race bike? Nonsense.


You think they do? How many Serottas do you see in the professional peloton? At amateur races? I'm not saying you can't race a Serotta, I'm saying that the bikes most people race now don't look anything like Serottas. Heritage, schmeritage. Serotta hasn't been a big name in racing in a long time.

I showed up at my local race this year on a CSi with a 1" head tube and a quill stem. I kept up just fine, and had I been a little better, could've placed. I looked around and saw nothing but Specialized and Orbea. They plain bore me. I know everyone who saw me admired my frame. And it made me realize I am lucky to have such a nice bike :)

And this makes my point for me. The bikes you saw at the race were Specialized and Orbea. Brands like that own racing now. Serotta can't compete, at least not in their current state. Maybe they can sponsor a small team or two, but that can't be their only play.

Please note, I was and am talking about why I don't think RACING is the way back to life for the brand. I think it will be easier for Serotta to sell bikes to non-racers these days. But I'm just a dude on the internet.

[tbcpn]

Cielo is a poor example only because they are direct, no?...

Direct or thru dealers, FWIW: http://cielo.chrisking.com/order/dealers/

[oldpotatoe]

Direct or thru dealers, FWIW: http://cielo.chrisking.com/order/dealers/

8 dealers in the USA? I'll call that direct.

Plus if you live in Portland and call CK, will they sell ya a frame?

Poor form, IMHO, I would not sell a frame that sold direct in my 'area'.

[phcollard]

Cielo is a poor example only because they are direct, no?

Waterford is custom steel for $1500. Lugged for $1900. All custom, USA made.

There are many other examples of the more traditional bike frame model, traditional in the sense they are sold at dealers, dealers that have demo bikes. I have 6 steel waterford demos, 5 Moots.
I think a dealer network, that is protected, is essential.

They sell direct to Canada (most tempted) but I thought they had a dealer network in the USA. Anyways... that was just an exemple. Waterford is a better one. You got my point: nice bikes, traditional stuff, good finish. Stuff that sells.

[carlucci1106]

Zandrr,

You are right. No one is racing Serotta. They aren't in the peloton. They aren't in the local races. They don't have "racing technology" or making that bigger or this modular-er. Lmao

So that leaves us with the other segments of the market. Let's look at the perception. The bike is for rich, old, doctors and dentists. That is the perception. Does Serotta make a good play repenetrating the racer 20somethings market? Probably not. As you have stated, this market is full of caterers.

Now let's look at the competition: IF, Moots, Vanilla, Firefly. They are percieved as cooler than Serotta. Why? Because they look cool. Someone on here has a Speedvagen with the logo cut out on the headtube exposing carbon underneath. The graphics, I dare say, are super-cool looking.

IF: They make some nice stuff, but what is their edge? Well they make a bike from Stainless that is still less $ than a Colorado. Their XS is in all intents and purposes an Ottrott, save the crown-shaped lugs-- which are uber-cool. A Corvid is their Meivici, etc... I'm sure Mr. Bill has identified these parallels. What sets these two companies apart is price. In a side-to-side comparison, if I was new to the custom market, would surmise there is no difference in that Serotta over there versus this IF that I can get for like a $1000 (what is it, FRNS) less.

So, Mr. Bill has identified problem number 1 as Price, and thus changing this. One of the 4 "P's" of marketing 101. The second P is most definitely going to be PROMOTION. How do you change the message to your market (us)? What makes our brand "uber-cool?"

Racing Heritage: moot
Lugged, Traditional nostalgia: poof, gone:help:
Innovation: hmmm, get busy R&D
"Small" operations: "there are smaller guys to buy from"
Great deal: check the '98 Catalogue and dream about .99c petrol too

So Zandrr, I don't know either. My idea about getting people's asses on to the bikes is my only idea. I don't know how a Speevagen, Corvid, Crumpton, Zank, or any other custom rides. I know when I got on my Serotta... it was magic. Get these dealers hooked up with a SG fleet fast. Tell them to ride the Specialdale and then the Legend. If this imaginary customer is some old rich dude who isn't going to race, the choice will be obvious given competitive pricing. And that students, is the next "P" of marketing: PLACE! Where is the mystique of Serotta living? In the minds of those who already ride them.

The fourth P is product. Get these Serottas looking hot!!!! We already know how they ride. The stock SG's should look way awesomer! C'mon it's still a $6000 (FRN) bike. Dress it up like it's going to the senior prom!!!

[rbtmcardle]

I know nothing about the bike biz.. But I do know that most people going into a bike shop are looking for direction.. The lbs near me, essentially the only bike shop near me, has bought into the trek monopoly.. You almost can't buy something that isn't Trek or Bontrager, this shop used to be a Serotta dealer, used to sell Specialized as well, used to carry zipp wheels, now not so much..high end Bontrager wheels.. No thanks. People who come in and want to buy a bike are guided to what the salesman shows them..

As far as I can tell, most salesman at this bike shop are indoctrinated to the trek conglomerate..and yep, that there Madone, is WAY better than anything else.. we here at the forums number what 10k.. Serotta needs to sell a couple to several thousands of bikes per year, more than half of that will likely need to come from the average person walking in a shop and being guided to Serotta.

Get the bike shops on board, get the bike shop employees on board.. Get them to LOVE their discounted bike.. Then they will sell themselves.

Boy, do I wish we had a real independent bike shop to support.. I suppose there just aren't enough peeps around here to go it alone.

Do the big boys, Trek and Specialized I guess.. Do they floor plan their bikes? Allow the dealer to pay overtime or as they are sold?

[Peter P.]

I want to hear your thoughts, comments, opinions, BIG ideas and anything else Serotta-related.


Good luck with your venture.

Suggestions: If Serotta actually makes its own forks, consider rebranding and selling them at competitive prices in the aftermarket. You may have to change the name because Serotta is already affiliated with a bike brand and I suspect, marketing-wise, that most people don't want to buy a fork that's branded from another bike brand. But if you can punch through that mental block, all the more power to ya'. The sales of forks to the aftermarket may help support the frame business.

Take the Serotta CNC department and try to manufacture titanium parts for the custom frame industry such as dropouts etc. There's certainly a need out there considering the number of builders working in titanium.

Bring back the lugged steel frame or at least the Colorado Concept Tubing in a TIG'd construction.

Reduce the number of models. Bring back pricing which is in line with other similar brands.

Someone else somewhere suggested "having a working lunch with Gary at IF." I suggest consider merging the two factories as I can't imagine there being enough work for one brand to make it really sustainable long term. I think it's possible for a peaceful coexistence of the two brands with a sharing of resources.

I'll be interested in how Serotta develops from here.

[rnhood]

Serotta has had some good ideas and innovation over the years, but they failed to exploit them (imho) and price has been turning people away (also imho).

The Mevici aero (AE) road bike is a good example. They hit the market with this bike when most other companies didn't even understand the market or performance advantage. It looked excellent and received good reviews (except for price). But low and behold, the aero Mevici just faded away and in the meantime aero road bikes have become increasingly popular. Specialized jumped on the bandwagon quickly and grabbed a big share of the market with their excellent Venge and now Felt, Trek and most others have a aero road bike. The Mevici areo remains the best looking aero road bike I've seen and its a shame it disappeared - regardless of its expense.

The "cobblestone" ready or easy rider road bikes are another example. Serotta put out the Hors Categorie years ahead of its time but, it just slowly faded away and in the meantime Specialized launched their impressively successful Roubaix model and Trek now has their Domane. Others have their "comfort" series too. I am not sure why Serotta faded on this but can only guess its a failure to keep evolving the technology, as well as keep exploiting the virtues from promotions and marketing.

Serotta has had some great ideas but has failed to make it stick. Price is certainly one issue, and I think their focus on the fit side and custom side of the business took efforts away from promoting and evolving the technology side.

I think the bikes should be make in Taiwan and priced lower. Performance and fashion tend to rule the marketplace these days - not so much where a product is made.

[carlucci1106]

Get the bike shops on board, get the bike shop employees on board.. Get them to LOVE their discounted bike.. Then they will sell themselves.


THIS...plus 1000

When I was young I purchased two employee purchase Bianchis. Man I love the brand. They will bury me with my Bianchis. I still drool over an Oltre even though I know I would like a high-end Serotta better.

We sold GT, Marin, Jamis, and some other shizz but I would always steer people to the Bianchis. I loved those bikes.

What makes a Bianchi awesome? Nanotech? *** is that?

Anyway, if you can get the young guys who work at the shops on the bikes, it will do a lot for that indecisive customer. :)

[Jason E]

Serotta has had some good ideas and innovation over the years, but they failed to exploit them (imho) and price has been turning people away (also imho).

The Mevici aero (AE) road bike is a good example. They hit the market with this bike when most other companies didn't even understand the market or performance advantage. It looked excellent and received good reviews (except for price). But low and behold, the aero Mevici just faded away and in the meantime aero road bikes have become increasingly popular. Specialized jumped on the bandwagon quickly and grabbed a big share of the market with their excellent Venge and now Felt, Trek and most others have a aero road bike. The Mevici areo remains the best looking aero road bike I've seen and its a shame it disappeared - regardless of its expense.

The "cobblestone" ready or easy rider road bikes are another example. Serotta put out the Hors Categorie years ahead of its time but, it just slowly faded away and in the meantime Specialized launched their impressively successful Roubaix model and Trek now has their Domane. Others have their "comfort" series too. I am not sure why Serotta faded on this but can only guess its a failure to keep evolving the technology, as well as keep exploiting the virtues from promotions and marketing.

Serotta has had some great ideas but has failed to make it stick. Price is certainly one issue, and I think their focus on the fit side and custom side of the business took efforts away from promoting and evolving the technology side.

I think the bikes should be make in Taiwan and priced lower. Performance and fashion tend to rule the marketplace these days - not so much where a product is made.

The AE was terrible. Ugly, and too expensive to alter quickly for a smaller builder. It was like they invested into a mold from 4 years earlier. And for the price, it had to be a slow seller. If there was and specialty custom tooling allocated to the product, I am sure it never paid for itself.

The Hors Catagorie did not disappear, it matured into the ST which was far more marketable, refined, and easier on the eyes while proving effective to this day.

---

Bill, you've got some great ideas here. Losing steel is a mistake. Even if it is a $1,500-$1,800 tig with 96-98 Atlanta geometry (please, please, please). DBRK is spot on. Most of these guys are.

Don't drop steel, get back to your real roots, not the lost-in-the-fog late 90's and 00's of custom 26cm HT specials. Make bikes, make great bikes.

Lastly, at some point, shut the freaking door. Grant tells us what he is doing, as does Richard, Zanc, all of them. You need to grab Serotta and drive it.

FWIW I had an Atlanta I loved and an Ottrott. The Atlanta was scheduled to phase out this summer at age 15. The Ottrott was destroyed by a drunk driver this summer. Her insurance replaced both, but given the uncertainty, I ordered a FireFly and a Madone. I hope in a few years when I want to buy something, Serotta is back in the mix of it. Hot, price competitive, and available in Ti and Steel.

Jason

[KF9YR]

I bought a 2011 Serotta Ottrott in late August last year.

After a year of riding it (around 4000 miles) I will say it is the finest bike I've ever had the pleasure of riding.

My friends really like my Serotta but they either don't spend that much money on bikes or buy a couple of mass-produced bikes (Trek/Specialized/Cannondale) for a similar price.

I really hope Serotta can grow again, but I feel it may not happen until the economy turns around.

[fourflys]

A return of the CSi. I decided to take us out of steel last month. I do not want to bring a bike to the market that is so outrageously priced that it embarrasses us. Premium price because I think we earn a premium for reasons I can share some other time (or for reasons you already know), then, yes. But, when we are not competitive in manufacturing cost then I want to focus us on what we can do well and bring you product you can value. Would I love to get us back into steel in the future? Absolutely. It is our heritage and it is a great material to work with. But, it's not something I can do now.


Thanks, Paceline Forum community, for your input. I am listening....bill (aka rusty lion)

so one of the most prolific steel bike makers is taking steel out of the line while trying to bring prices more into a realistic line?

should be interesting to see how it works out...

[Jack Brunk]

Darwin at work. Only the strongest survive.

[DerekB]

Bill, a very warm welcome to you. I will take you up on that ride, in August of next year. I have been working in Saratoga Springs every summer for a few weeks for 17 years. I saw the sign outside of the Serotta factory and always wondered about it. In 2010 I asked if I could have a tour of the factory. Steven LeBoyer happily obliged. Three days later I was in the fit lab having a custom Classique Ti designed. I had the frame made and shipped to me. I built it up in a friend's shop with his help. It is my first custom frame and my first "real" road bike. I enjoy it very much and only wish I had more time to ride.
I will be in touch for that ride. After I ride with Ben; I visited this August and he told me to be sure to ride with him next summer.
Looking forward to meeting you and best wishes for success.

[jr59]

Thanks for the kind words and warm welcome.

I am going to first offer a "disclaimer" and then begin responding to some of your questions/comments.

First, what I know today is that I don't know much. I have been a Serotta user and a biking enthusiast since the 70's...but always from the outside as a consumer. Now, I am on the "inside" but am drinking from the fire hydrant in order to gain knowledge and become valuable to you. I will do my best to respond intelligently but may have to answer "I don't know at this moment but will get you an answer."

Second, all of you have read/heard of Serotta's situation in the last couple of years so you know I have lots and lots to do here. But, listening and learning from our customers is one of the things I love to do. So, I will do my utmost to make time each and every day to listen and contribute here.

Ok. A few things you wrote me:

Stickers. I think you mean decals. You want them if you can show us a serial nr, right? I don't know what we are doing re: decals nor do I have any sort of answer to this but will research and respond.

A return of the CSi. I decided to take us out of steel last month. I do not want to bring a bike to the market that is so outrageously priced that it embarrasses us. Premium price because I think we earn a premium for reasons I can share some other time (or for reasons you already know), then, yes. But, when we are not competitive in manufacturing cost then I want to focus us on what we can do well and bring you product you can value. Would I love to get us back into steel in the future? Absolutely. It is our heritage and it is a great material to work with. But, it's not something I can do now.

Pricing. I have spent the last month on pricing which as you told me, was not competitive or logical. We are announcing new pricing on all models this week (SE and SG) for frames, frame sets and complete bikes. It is my first shot at this so I would say I am ready to hear your feedback and then maybe, move us to a Phase II later....

Thanks, Paceline Forum community, for your input. I am listening....bill (aka rusty lion)

I think it's outstanding that we got a responce! That's much more than I expected. Thanks!
As I said before, this board and across the hall is full of people that know how to spend your money in making Serotta a huge bike co again. As long as it's YOUR money!
Sir; Please do as you think is right. We all would like to see the brand make a comeback. Not many of us think that is possible, but again, it's not our cash!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE=William;1228636]Honestly, one of the biggest hurdles to over come is right here....

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=113817


It isn't that Serotta quality really started to go down hill, it's that the competition has become much better. While Serotta pricing went up, it's loyal customer pool slowly got priced out and found that there were other builders out there to fill the void with great quality and palatable pricing.

Combine that with vacating the racing scene...out of sight out of mind...and a lack of a clear direction to date and it's a real uphill battle. And, when you have former loyal followers saying there is a problem (even if their opinions may not be correct), you have a problem.

I think most people who know the brand wish them the best. It's just that they've seen light elsewhere so getting them back ain't going to be easy.






William[/QUOTE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that this post gets to the root of the problem.

I would also add that (and I am stealing this from Peter) In todays market, the only thing that you can measure is weight and price! I would keep that in mind when I think about how to reach the new riders of today. Most young riders don't know of Serotta's past and don't care. Heck, most don't know who Greg Lemond is, or was, except for a name on an old steel bike!
Here on this forum, mostly we love steel, ti and such. But we are not the new breed of riders.

Anyway, Good luck and know that for the most part we want the brand to surive and grow strong again!

Thanks for reading.

[victoryfactory]

Bill;

I hope you have thick skin. Because in between all the pent up bunk
and uninformed nonsense in this thread is also the answer.
If you distill all that has been said here and across the hall, you will
have more than enough of a sample to form a plan for the future of
Serotta along with what you already know from the inside.
to summarize:

fix the dealer situation

get involved in racing on a local level by allowing dealers to supply
Serotta 18 lb steel race bikes to their shop/local teams a low price. throw in team paint. This should be considered
as an advertizing expense, not part of your for profit operation.
This is a tough sell in a carbon dominated sector but who knows? the
combination of an affordable race bike and the Serotta name could make
an impact. It could even be press worthy as a few local races are won
on your new model, after all no one else is doing this!

get some knowledgeable customer service people and give them the
tools to do their job. computerize serial numbers and build sheets
for the aficionados

simplify the product line. Three models, standard Serotta geo.

Use the fork business, paint shop and parts manufacturing capability
that you have to pay the rent. Example: One great painter in your
finishing dept could provide a welcome alternative to the long waits at
Joe Bell for all the boutique makers. Put on a second shift in the paint dept if necessary, make the
prices realistic.

price reductions can be achieved partly by eliminating many of the
flights of fancy in the product line. Carbon needs to be taken off shore
to be competitive or at least simplified to one reasonable stock line.
There are not enough dentists to justify a 10K+ carbon bike! And
you really don't want to try to compete with 3K carbon race bikes from Asia with a made in USA model. There are too many
of them, yo.

please simplify the fitting/ custom thing IMO it drives away and confuses more
customers than it attracts.

What should be most apparent is the name Serotta still attracts so
much buzz and emotion in the bike world. there have been many
examples in business of companies starting with no more than the
purchase of a known name in a particular field.
You are starting with way more than that.

Find out if "Steel is Real" is trademarked, if not Grab It!
Youre gonna want it (or something like it) for that big ad campaign you launch
once you start getting a few results from your race bike program.

As I gaze into my crystal ball I can clearly see the cover story in Velo News August 2013
"Steel is Back for Racing"
Led by old line marques like Serotta, the steel race bike has made a comeback in local contests...

btw, I am not a Luddite about the steel thing, I am just analyzing the situation from the pov of what can Serotta do to come back
considering the materials available and who is doing what. I'll bet there will be carbon shortages and price increases as Boeing and
others write more orders and Ti is always in short supply anyway. After all the 15lb carbon euro grand tour high tech race scene has
taken a bit of a hit lately, there may be a grass roots bike racing rebound coming as people turn away from the corruption at the top of the sport.

good luck!

VF

ATX
Atlanta
Legend Ti

[G-Reg]

The only advise you have gotten here or across that is worth anything is the suggestion to talk to Gary with IF. If he is willing to share with you, he is the ONLY person on these forums that has ANY clue as to what it will take for you to suceed.

I'll give you the second piece of advice that is worth anything (better late than never)

DO NOT come to online forums looking to discuss your business. It is a NO WIN situation as you can see form the response of the founder across the hall. If you don’t respond you will be bashed for not listening. If you respond but don't act like everything they(we) say is great, you will be bashed for not knowing your audience. If you respond and disagree in any way, you will be labeled clueless. There really is NO way for you to benefit from forum participation that centers around your business.

Follow Gary's lead and participate but do not talk shop.


More free advise - Make a sloping Ti monster cross with full rack/fender mounts. Call it the "TiRaid" and snap some pics with some FATT A$$ slicks.
Consult with MrDangerPants about how it should look. IF you don't do this you are a fool. If you do I wnat a free frame

[fourflys]

The only advise you have gotten here or across that is worth anything is the suggestion to talk to Gary with IF. If he is willing to share with you, he is the ONLY person on these forums that has ANY clue as to what it will take for you to suceed.



there might be a few other luminaries and builders/businessman that know a thing or two that gave advice (Sachs, Garro, Old Potatoe, etc...)

[fiamme red]

Suggestions: If Serotta actually makes its own forks, consider rebranding and selling them at competitive prices in the aftermarket. You may have to change the name because Serotta is already affiliated with a bike brand and I suspect, marketing-wise, that most people don't want to buy a fork that's branded from another bike brand. But if you can punch through that mental block, all the more power to ya'. The sales of forks to the aftermarket may help support the frame business.

Take the Serotta CNC department and try to manufacture titanium parts for the custom frame industry such as dropouts etc. There's certainly a need out there considering the number of builders working in titanium.I think these are great suggestions. It appears to me that while Serotta has been sleeping, Enve has come and eaten their lunch.

[fiamme red]

The only advise you have gotten here or across that is worth anything is the suggestion to talk to Gary with IF. If he is willing to share with you, he is the ONLY person on these forums that has ANY clue as to what it will take for you to suceed.Really? How do you know that IF has been so wildly successful, Lifelover/Earl Grey/G-Reg?

[PQJ]

there might be a few other luminaries and builders/businessman that know a thing or two that gave advice (Sachs, Garro, Old Potatoe, etc...)

+1. I thought Carlucci's post was also particularly well-thought out and on point.

[dekindy]

FWIW I had an Atlanta I loved and an Ottrott. The Atlanta was scheduled to phase out this summer at age 15. The Ottrott was destroyed by a drunk driver this summer. Her insurance replaced both, but given the uncertainty, I ordered a FireFly and a Madone. I hope in a few years when I want to buy something, Serotta is back in the mix of it. Hot, price competitive, and available in Ti and Steel.

Jason

Wow, very telling to anyone trying to turn Serotta around.

[dekindy]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=107106&highlight=domane

I found this a very refreshing discussion that might be valuable as part of your research here. Hope it helps.

[Steve in SLO]

Lots of tough love and some good ideas so far. My 0.02:

Build the fork business. You are associated with Mike Lopez. He is crazy-talented with CF. Utilize his knowhow and compete with ENVE and with Whiskey with Hi/Lo pricepoint lines. That can get $$ flowing.

Monstercross Ti in standard geos. It's a growing segment, esp in us older guys who are getting bored with pure road riding but don't like flatbar MTBs.
Name it something cool, not like the past where Serotta named its tri bike a CX and its CX bike a Concours (Really...a dirty Concours?)
Update the Serotta graphics. They were cutting edge in the 70s, but...

[Ahneida Ride]

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/120827-SG-Size-Chart.pdf

I can't read the text ..... It is too small and I think there are also
some serious typos ...

[dekindy]

After having read one of the replies on the VSalon(regarding asking for advice on a forum after you bought the company), it hit me how ridiculous this all is. For someone making this type of investment they had better have done their research before making the plunge. That research would have included an analyst reviewing the threads here, at VSalon, and other relevant forums and the competitions offerings, pricings, technology, etc.; then come up with a strategy and announce it here. There is absolutely nothing new under the Sun being said in this thread that has not been said numerous times in the past. Not very confidence inspiring if you are considering a Serotta; then again Serotta has not done anything right in the marketing department for a long time. If they did not clean house on Day 1 regarding existing personnel that is not going to happen either. Why was this thread started again? I am going to continue riding my Legend and love it but like everyone else I have no dealer to buy from locally and am priced out of the market anyway so no more Serotta's in my future.

[54ny77]

Who knows, maybe the luxury of time and due diligence wasn't an option?

You buy a foreclosed house on the auction block as-is, for example. Do a quick drive-by, peek in the windows, make sure backstop liquidity is there if needed and then hope for the best.

After having read one of the replies on the VSalon(regarding asking for advice on a forum after you bought the company), it hit me how ridiculous this all is. For someone making this type of investment they had better have done their research before making the plunge. That research would have included an analyst reviewing the threads here, at VSalon, and other relevant forums and the competitions offerings, pricings, technology, etc.; then come up with a strategy and announce it here. There is absolutely nothing new under the Sun being said in this thread that has not been said numerous times in the past. Not very confidence inspiring if you are considering a Serotta; then again Serotta has not done anything right in the marketing department for a long time. If they did not clean house on Day 1 regarding existing personnel that is not going to happen either. Why was this thread started again? I am going to continue riding my Legend and love it but like everyone else I have no dealer to buy from locally and am priced out of the market anyway so no more Serotta's in my future.

[echelon_john]

According to his blog, he's known Ben Serotta for 30 years.

[dekindy]

Who knows, maybe the luxury of time and due diligence wasn't an option?

You buy a foreclosed house on the auction block as-is, for example. Do a quick drive-by, peek in the windows, make sure backstop liquidity is there if needed and then hope for the best.

Very doubtful. As he said, he has already killed steel and I did not add it up, but a very large number of responses would not agree with that. Pricing has already been changed. Besides, we don't have even close to enough information to put together a strategy. You don't do that on a shoestring. The only possible new thing here, and that may not be new, were some specific personnel changes recommended on VSalon and have no idea if that is even remotely possible.

[nighthawk]

After having read one of the replies on the VSalon(regarding asking for advice on a forum after you bought the company), it hit me how ridiculous this all is. For someone making this type of investment they had better have done their research before making the plunge. That research would have included an analyst reviewing the threads here, at VSalon, and other relevant forums and the competitions offerings, pricings, technology, etc.; then come up with a strategy and announce it here. There is absolutely nothing new under the Sun being said in this thread that has not been said numerous times in the past. Not very confidence inspiring if you are considering a Serotta; then again Serotta has not done anything right in the marketing department for a long time. If they did not clean house on Day 1 regarding existing personnel that is not going to happen either. Why was this thread started again? I am going to continue riding my Legend and love it but like everyone else I have no dealer to buy from locally and am priced out of the market anyway so no more Serotta's in my future.

This seems to make a lot of assumptions about the new CEO and Serotta in general. It's common sense to me that the new CEO would a) reach out to a former Serotta forum to open a line of communication AND b) get a pulse on a where a lot of current and former Serotta customers are at in regards to thoughts on the company. It doesn't mean he's going to take all or any of the advice, or that he even "needs" the advice... just smart business in my opinion.

We'll see what comes of it. Give the guy a break. It's ridiculous to think things will change overnight or to assume that things wont change at all.
Maybe even let him make a few mistakes before he figures it out.

[54ny77]

http://connect.ncircle.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/1322i94607F1AD7FFEA13/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1



We'll see what comes of it. Give the guy a break. It's ridiculous to think things will change overnight or to assume that things wont change at all.
Maybe even let him make a few mistakes before he figures it out.

[RIHans]

Hey, I hope they turn it around and bring it back to it's former glory.





William

That train has left the station.

The brand Ben built with a TDF team riding his bikes, winning races all over the world, was a respected, well made brand.

People bought those bikes because they were great bikes, made in the USA.
Now, not so much. The "custom" bikes are some not so well thought out, just plain ugly bikes.

Some have said the racing teams should return...I know a well thought out,
stock bike with some color options would sell. Not sure a race team will sell a lot of bikes to anyone.

[William]

That train has left the station.

The brand Ben built with a TDF team riding his bikes, winning races all over the world, was a respected, well made brand.

People bought those bikes because they were great bikes, made in the USA.
Now, not so much. The "custom" bikes are some not so well thought out, just plain ugly bikes.

Some have said the racing teams should return...I know a well thought out,
stock bike with some color options would sell. Not sure a race team will sell a lot of bikes to anyone.


Hey Hans, I know it's not what it once was. And whether they actually can do it???? it's going to be a long road, or a short one. I hope they can pull it off but it will take some big changes from what it had become.




William

[572cv]

People bought those bikes because they were great bikes, made in the USA.
Now, not so much. The "custom" bikes are some not so well thought out, just plain ugly bikes.



I really disagree with blanket statements like this. I have yet to see a Serotta which wasn't well thought out. Many find them well proportioned, beautifully finished and remarkable riding bikes, all the more attractive because of the grace of the performance. Some see a disfigured Mona Lisa, for others, their Serotta? " L.H.O.O.Q."

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q.

[RIHans]

I really disagree with blanket statements like this. I have yet to see a Serotta which wasn't well thought out. Many find them well proportioned, beautifully finished and remarkable riding bikes, all the more attractive because of the grace of the performance. Some see a disfigured Mona Lisa, for others, their Serotta? " L.H.O.O.Q."

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q.

Well, I would further define the ugly as the stupid barstool positions the
"expert" Serotta fitters set these bikes up to be...

If you don't lean forward, you ain't riding the bike, you're just sitting on it.

I went looking at the Google images of Serotta Bikes...There are quite a few nice older ones. The newer ones are kind of bland.

[RIHans]

.

[davidb]

Good luck,Serotta. Hopefully there is a market for something well made here by Americans. To one of the above I agree do not look to a forum for answers. Listen to those that are making it work. Make a plan and try your best. I will say having watched Cervelo use the placement of bicycles with shop employees as a highly effective sales tool. Customer to shop person "what do you ride" shop person "I ride a ......." It really works, closes the deal more often than not.

[rounder]

Hi Bill. Welcome to the forum. Hope Serotta and the bikes live forever.

[I Want Sachs?]

If you don't lean forward, you ain't riding the bike, you're just sitting on it.



Don't understand why a rider has to lean forward. The Dutch city bikes are designed with riders pretty upright. Nothing wrong with that.

[esldude]

Some nasty responses here. Unnecessarily so I think.

What makes a Serotta a Serotta?

It can be the ability to fit customers better. They claim it is.

It can be higher quality in house material. Is it really higher quality or more to the point is the higher quality something you benefit from in the final product? Maybe the expensive in house material is higher quality, but perhaps we have reached the point where it pays off in no way perceptible to the customer. Then the expense is only an expense with no benefit.

It can be knowledge of how to meld, fit, geometry and all together so the total is more than a mere sum of its parts. Owning only one Serotta, which clearly was the best riding bike I have been on in 5 minutes time makes me think there is something to that idea.

How can building steel bikes help? Unless there is some magic to putting simple steel together I don't know there is as much reason for it. Maybe there is and maybe the new guy has made a good decision to kill steel if there isn't.

The question in need of answering is what makes a Serotta a Serotta and at what price point does it make them more attractive than similarly priced choices. If they have knowledge in house of how much is geometry and construction techniques, how much is quality of material, and at what price point that puts them at greatest advantage it should be reasonably clear what to do.

All the other stuff about confusing product lines, and maybe not jazzy enough in visual appearance etc. etc. are true enough and obvious.

[oldpotatoe]

Some nasty responses here. Unnecessarily so I think.

What makes a Serotta a Serotta?

It can be the ability to fit customers better. They claim it is.

It can be higher quality in house material. Is it really higher quality or more to the point is the higher quality something you benefit from in the final product? Maybe the expensive in house material is higher quality, but perhaps we have reached the point where it pays off in no way perceptible to the customer. Then the expense is only an expense with no benefit.

It can be knowledge of how to meld, fit, geometry and all together so the total is more than a mere sum of its parts. Owning only one Serotta, which clearly was the best riding bike I have been on in 5 minutes time makes me think there is something to that idea.

How can building steel bikes help? Unless there is some magic to putting simple steel together I don't know there is as much reason for it. Maybe there is and maybe the new guy has made a good decision to kill steel if there isn't.

The question in need of answering is what makes a Serotta a Serotta and at what price point does it make them more attractive than similarly priced choices. If they have knowledge in house of how much is geometry and construction techniques, how much is quality of material, and at what price point that puts them at greatest advantage it should be reasonably clear what to do.

All the other stuff about confusing product lines, and maybe not jazzy enough in visual appearance etc. etc. are true enough and obvious.

Ask many small and big frame makers, the guys that actually design and make the frame, which material offers the best combination of desirable qualities in a bicycle frame.

If anything, I think serotta ought to dump all carbon frames, in a bike frame market awash with carbon. BUT they own a carbon manufacturing facility.

[William]

If anything, I think serotta ought to dump all carbon frames, in a bike frame market awash with carbon. BUT they own a carbon manufacturing facility.

That would seem to be a big monkey on their back. Since they weren't able to capitalize quickly on the carbon market when they purchased that facility a lot of off-shore CF has flooded the market. I like the suggestion of using that facility as well as their CNC capabilities to make parts to outsource to other suppliers and builders. How feasible that is for them to do I have no idea but it sounds good. http://metaldetectingforum.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif





William

[dekindy]

This seems to make a lot of assumptions about the new CEO and Serotta in general. It's common sense to me that the new CEO would a) reach out to a former Serotta forum to open a line of communication AND b) get a pulse on a where a lot of current and former Serotta customers are at in regards to thoughts on the company. It doesn't mean he's going to take all or any of the advice, or that he even "needs" the advice... just smart business in my opinion.

We'll see what comes of it. Give the guy a break. It's ridiculous to think things will change overnight or to assume that things wont change at all.
Maybe even let him make a few mistakes before he figures it out.

Do you really think it was prudent to ask our opinion only to find out that steel had already been killed and pricing strategy implemented? Why didn't he just tell us that? All the sincere replies and then to find this out makes me feel like I was led on. Is that really the best way to introduce yourself here? Ask everybody what they think and then find out that steel has been killed and a new pricing strategy has been implemented IMHO was not the way to go. Look at all the replies that recommended keeping steel, getting the "steel is real" slogan rights, bringing back the CSI etc., is not even on the table. Maybe they will bring it back later, yeah right, who would tell Serotta that is a great idea?

I am both a vehement critic and a diehard fan of Serotta. As long as Oakley Cycling continues as a dealer, which is only a hundred miles away from Indianapolis and we like going to Cincinnati, I will consider Serotta if I am in the new bike market again. However my LBS, Bicycle Garage Indy wholeheartedly supported Serotta, their fitter is Serotta trained, and they give me unbelieveable service has my ultimate loyalty and whatever they carry will get first preference if they still have not become a Serotta dealer again by the time that I buy a new bike. In the meantime they now stock Colnago. Now that I have all the facts this introduction was a negative for me. I would have preferred he said that he wanted us to be the first to know about the new direction he was taking Serotta; and told us that although many may not agree, I am killing steel and this is why. Also I am reducing Legend frame and fork (I assume it is an F3 but maybe it is an S fork-does appear that seat stays are titanium but I would view this as a positive) 25% and this is now where our pricing falls in relation to the competition. And also add that he had done a search on our forum prior to implementing these decisions and had taken our opinions into consideration. Then I would have been very favorably impressed. As it is I wish him the best of luck but from my perspective he has much to learn about communicating with the loyal supporters of Serotta.

[echelon_john]

This thread has 7,210 views as of now. That's 7,210 missed opportunities for Serotta. They've had a lot of do-overs and continue to seem bent on vaporizing whatever goodwill exists toward the brand. It's hard to watch.

[e-RICHIE]

This thread has 7,210 views as of now.
That's 7,210 missed opportunities for Serotta.
They've had a lot of do-overs and continue to
seem bent on vaporizing whatever goodwill exists
toward the brand. It's hard to watch.

The biggest, best, and maybe last good opportunity for the brand was when it owned or sponsored this board atmo.

[fourflys]

How can building steel bikes help? Unless there is some magic to putting simple steel together I don't know there is as much reason for it. Maybe there is and maybe the new guy has made a good decision to kill steel if there isn't.


because steel is a much more affordable entry into a high-end bike brand than anything else... hook them with steel than maybe later on they'll pony up the cash for a Ti or carbon because they are now loyal to the brand... and the end goal for ANY company is brand loyalty... I just feel it's hard to build that when the entry price for a frameset is as much or more than most are willing/able to pay for a complete bike... (look outside the forum)

a good comparison might be Harley Davidson... Many new Harley riders couldn't make the jump to the $30k Road King so Harley offers the Sportsters at a much more affordable price and sells a TON of them... these Sportster riders have now bought into the Harley "lifestyle" and will probably trade up to a more expensive bike a few times over... and I don't think there is any other company that has as strong as brand loyalty as Harley... (no I don't own a Harley)

that's why Serotta needs to offer a steel bike IMHO

[oldpotatoe]

because steel is a much more affordable entry into a high-end bike brand than anything else... hook them with steel than maybe later on they'll pony up the cash for a Ti or carbon because they are now loyal to the brand... and the end goal for ANY company is brand loyalty... I just feel it's hard to build that when the entry price for a frameset is as much or more than most are willing/able to pay for a complete bike... (look outside the forum)

a good comparison might be Harley Davidson... Many new Harley riders couldn't make the jump to the $30k Road King so Harley offers the Sportsters at a much more affordable price and sells a TON of them... these Sportster riders have now bought into the Harley "lifestyle" and will probably trade up to a more expensive bike a few times over... and I don't think there is any other company that has as strong as brand loyalty as Harley... (no I don't own a Harley)

that's why Serotta needs to offer a steel bike IMHO

Yep, well made steel can have a great ride, be light, look great, last forever, have great crash worthiness, can be easily repaired and be less expensive.

But ya still ride a "putbuildersnamehere"....