Lance Armstrong asked to repay $7.5m bonus to insurance firm

[djg21]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20029617

SCA's lawyer Jeffrey M. Tillotson told BBC Sport: "We will make a formal demand for return of funds."

He added: "If this is not successful, we will initiate formal legal proceedings against Mr Armstrong in five business days (Monday 29 October)."

[eippo1]

Hmm, I wonder if Discovery channel and USPS will attempt to do similar things.

[Birddog]

Hmm, I wonder if Discovery channel and USPS will attempt to do similar things.

Why would they. He brought in viewers to Discovery and pkg shipping to USPS (across the pond where they intended). It would be difficult to prove damages IMO.

[Dave B]

I would love to know what kind of monetary damages Lance will have to suffer through. Anyone have a guess, +/- $20mil


Side note, remember he had some sort of software device that everytime his name was printed online he would be notified. Imagine if he still had that now? :eek:

[camchris1]

Just read he will be asked to return his winnings from the TDF.

[Dave B]

Just read he will be asked to return his winnings from the TDF.

So there are some calls he is going to make to his former teammates.

"Hey George, now that you helped USADA catch me, can I have the $200K back I gave you from all of my wins?"

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . of some of the endorsement deals he did was that legally he was being paid to bring attention to the brand or the product at the time he was paid to do so.

So in at least some of those cases like Discovery or USPS the argument could be made that even though his notoriety at the time was based on fraud, he DID still deliver the prodict that he was being paid to deliver. That was the atention to the brand or product.

But I hope SCA and whoever else can prove otherwise nails him to the wall.

BBD

[Dave B]

Didn't Trek give him a huge stock option gift? When they dropped him, he was darn near a owner/partner in the company. Wonder if that was bought out.

[Rueda Tropical]

So there are some calls he is going to make to his former teammates.

"Hey George, now that you helped USADA catch me, can I have the $200K back I gave you from all of my wins?"


Actually, that is likely to happen. George and the rest are no more deserving then Armstrong of the winnings.

[bikerboy337]

i thought I read somewhere that the contracts with USPS stated that they were not allowed to dope, ie. if they are caught, they can be penalized... not sure if you can retroactively go after them, but I wonder...

[laupsi]

I stated earlier in another thread, patting myself on the back, that LA was vulnerable financially and would probably be "affected" by the UCI decision if it was to take away his tour titles. someone wrote back that LA was super wealthy, in the $150M range and doubted it would really affect him. I hold to my original statement; these things have a tendency to snow ball and aside from his advisors I really don't think LA is that clever, (cunning yes, but we see where that got him...)

Hence the long denial. Court costs, legal fees, interest payments, and if proven, liability from association are all issues LA must now confront. I doubt any serious analyst can at this time predict the potential financial impact.

My guess, no one in the LA camp is doing any sleeping now and for some time...

[tuxbailey]

I stated earlier in another thread, patting myself on the back, that LA was vulnerable financially and would probably be "affected" by the UCI decision if it was to take away his tour titles. someone wrote back that LA was super wealthy, in the $150M range and doubted it would really affect him. I hold to my original statement; these things have a tendency to snow ball and aside from his advisors I really don't think LA is that clever, (cunning yes, but we see where that got him...)

Hence the long denial. Court costs, legal fees, interest payments, and if proven, liability from association are all issues LA must now confront. I doubt any serious analyst can at this time predict the potential financial impact.

My guess, no one in the LA camp is doing any sleeping now and for some time...

Sheryl Crow was pretty smart to abandon ship when she did.

[PQJ]

Agree with laupsi that this thing will continue being a snowballing clusterf#*k for Dopestrong. Sure he's super wealthy but this whole 'thing' will cost him oodles of $$. Bigger than that, however, will be the blow to his pride, the revelation that he has no integrity or principles of any kind, the laying bare of the extent to which he is a lying, cheating POS, and the loss of his titles.

As for the sleep issues, at least there are drugs to help with that. Legally obtainable ones.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that Oakley has dropped him, too.

But one commenter made an excellent point . . . so many of these sponsors--Nike, Oakley, etc.--are dropping Lance but saying they will continue to support Livestrong and it's "mission."

If they really just wanted to support the "mission" to fight cancer there are any number of other cancer charities with no conncetion to cheating, fraud, and lying that they could quietly donate to.

The fact that they are still trying to keep some public connection to Livestrong indicates a cynical attempt to continue to appeal to any fans who are still loyal to Lance in order to--you guessed it--sell more Lance related stuff to them.

BBD

[rwsaunders]

i thought I read somewhere that the contracts with USPS stated that they were not allowed to dope, ie. if they are caught, they can be penalized... not sure if you can retroactively go after them, but I wonder...

I read that the entire USPS squad from that era will be penalized, in that they will be required to wait in line with me at my post office on the Saturday morning before Christmas...:cool:

[CaliFly]

. . . that Oakley has dropped him, too.

But one commenter made an excellent point . . . so many of these sponsors--Nike, Oakley, etc.--are dropping Lance but saying they will continue to support Livestrong and it's "mission."

If they really just wanted to support the "mission" to fight cancer there are any number of other cancer charities with no conncetion to cheating, fraud, and lying that they could quietly donate to.

The fact that they are still trying to keep some public connection to Livestrong indicates a cynical attempt to continue to appeal to any fans who are still loyal to Lance in order to--you guessed it--sell more Lance related stuff to them.

BBD

Look at the other option, though. If these companies pull out of Lance AND Livestrong, it makes them look like they were simply riding the money train. This is exactly their intention, granted, but it's all about perception.

Damned if they do, damn if they don't. Hello, lesser of two evils.

[Fixed]

As my old boss that I loved dearly used to say "the whole thing is a cluster **** "
Cheers

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . simply announce they are now going to give the same amount of money to the Cancer society or another well-positioned HONEST cancer charity and get out of this fix.

This would make it clear they still respect and want to help with the fight against cancer AND make clear they do not approve of what Lance represents.

BBD

[laupsi]

. . . simply announce they are now going to give the same amount of money to the Cancer society or another well-positioned HONEST cancer charity and get out of this fix.

This would make it clear they still respect and want to help with the fight against cancer AND make clear they do not approve of what Lance represents.

BBD

let's wait and see what happens in a couple of years, if it takes that long, when the full LA luster is totally faded. I bet there won't nearly as much donated then. Although different, Komen suffered a similar fate.

[rcnute]

Is it not the case that the dispute was settled and there was no "win"? Good luck trying to undo that.

Ryan

[deluxerider]

he is a lying, cheating POS

Do you feel the same way about the other riders of his generation? Ullrich, Basso, Hamilton, Zabel, Hincapie, Leipheimer, or as far back as Tom Simpson. Are you more angry with Armstrong because he's an a$$hole and Hincapie isn't. People who succeed at an elite level have a different psyche. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Tiger Woods are a$$holes who will do whatever it takes to win. Jack Welch and Donald trump are the same in the business world.

I wish the sport was clean, but it isn't. I think I have to consider Lance the winner of 7 TDF's in the most doped generation. I believe the playing field was fairly level. Ullrich wasn't using some low grade Mexican made EPO and his scheme to hide it must have been fairly sophisticated.

The situation seems much more nuanced than simply the fact that Lance cheated. All of the guys on Postal/Discovery could have said no and continued to have lucrative careers in the pro peloton with other teams and many left Postal/Discover and continued to dope. They aren't being vilified. Mostly we would not have heard about their doping if they had not been coerced into confessing or caught outright (Hamilton, Landis).

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

p.s. I'm not a Lance defender.

[PQJ]

Do you feel the same way about the other riders of his generation?

That they're liars and cheats? Yes. That they're POSs? No.

I'm not a 'hater,' by the way.

[gdw]

.

[deluxerider]

That was not meant in any personal way.

That they're liars and cheats? Yes. That they're POSs? No.

I'm not a 'hater,' by the way.

[dd74]

Well if he's broke, she's worth a billion at least.
http://hollywooddame.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/lance-armstrong-and-ashley-olsen.jpg
Anyway, if LA doesn't pay back USPS, what will they do in return? Not deliver his mail?

[PQJ]

That was not meant in any personal way.

I know. It's all good. It is hard on these boards to be critical of Armstrong without being branded a hater, or not critical without being branded a lover. I don't like those labels.

[Elefantino]

He brought in viewers to Discovery and pkg shipping to USPS
Plus, those two entities paid Tailwind, not Lance personally. And Tailwind was run by Thom Weisel, who still runs USA Cycling like a don through his marionette, Steve Johnson.

Remember this (http://www.sandcreeksports.com/documents/ArmstrongChart.pdf)?

If anything, everybody should go after these money men who bankrolled the fraud. If it weren't for this network of organized slime, Armstrong would just have been a bike racer.

[Rueda Tropical]

Do you feel the same way about the other riders of his generation? Ullrich, Basso, Hamilton, Zabel, Hincapie, Leipheimer, or as far back as Tom Simpson. Are you more angry with Armstrong because he's an a$$hole and Hincapie isn't. People who succeed at an elite level have a different psyche. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Tiger Woods are a$$holes who will do whatever it takes to win. Jack Welch and Donald trump are the same in the business world.


There are 2 differences between Lance and Ullrich, Hincapie and the rest.

1. Lance is still denying he doped.
2. Lance was not just a worker he was management.

He earned the crap he's getting and continues to earn it.

Your going with "don't hate the player hate the game" as a defense? really? An excuse used by pimps, and crack dealers to justify socio-pathic behavior. I'd say the players deserve whatever they get.

[wc1934]

Is it not the case that the dispute was settled and there was no "win"? Good luck trying to undo that.

Ryan


I believe you are correct. They fought it out in court and eventually came to a settlement. A settlement is considered binding, and the court views it as final and conclusive. Exception is "evidence of bad faith or fraud", which will be Tailwinds main argument (but that comes with many subsets to prove).

[Dekonick]

I will stick to my statement: I would gladly have a beer with Jan or Greg. I would NOT do so with Lance.

[deluxerider]

As far as I know Ullrich has never admitted anything publicly. He just left the sport. Hincapie, Leipheimer, Et al had no intention of ever admitting to doping until they were forced to by USADA. Its not a defense. It's a fact that the state of the game when Lance was playing was that you had to dope to be competitive. The podiums speak to that. Doesn't make it right be any stretch. But it was the culture of cycling at the time, ATMO.

There are 2 differences between Lance and Ullrich, Hincapie and the rest.

1. Lance is still denying he doped.
2. Lance was not just a worker he was management.

He earned the crap he's getting and continues to earn it.

Your going with "don't hate the player hate the game" as a defense? really? An excuse used by pimps, and crack dealers to justify socio-pathic behavior. I'd say the players deserve whatever they get.

[Tony T]

. . . simply announce they are now going to give the same amount of money to the Cancer society or another well-positioned HONEST cancer charity and get out of this fix.

Are you implying that the Livestrong organization is dishonest?
Are you also aware that there are cancer organizations that have had their share of scandal from embezzlements?

[Rueda Tropical]

As far as I know Ullrich has never admitted anything publicly. He just left the sport. Hincapie, Leipheimer, Et al had no intention of ever admitting to doping until they were forced to by USADA. Its not a defense. It's a fact that the state of the game when Lance was playing was that you had to dope to be competitive. The podiums speak to that. Doesn't make it right be any stretch. But it was the culture of cycling at the time, ATMO.

Ullrich accepted his ban and admitted a big mistake and contact with Fuentes. Sort of a half-assed Basso style confession. The rest had no intention of getting caught but when they did they came clean. Armstrong is alone in trying to preserve the lie. Plus, he wasn't just another pro doping - he had power over the rest of the team, who went, who stayed. Nothing is happening to Armstrong that he doesn't deserve and he didn't earn. He is not a victim.

[Pandergosk]

There will always be doping in every sport. Trying to end doping in sports is like trying to end online piracy. You'd have to end the sport. I don't think Lance is a piece of **** for creating a cancer charity that helps people live better lives. I don't think he is a piece for doping either. Arguing over who is the worst cyclist for doping is a silly argument that can (and probably will) be argued ad nauseum. He was simply the best doped rider in a field of doped riders. Probably the best doped rider ever. The field continues to be filled with doped riders. We want to tear him down because he is the best. People will use whatever excuse they can to say how he is somehow worse, that he was the only person running a sophisticated doping program. All the doping programs were sophisticated, enough so to avoid detection for years. As a cancer survivor he was an inspiration to me and many other cancer surviving athletes and I will see that in him first before anything else.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Are you implying that the Livestrong organization is dishonest?
Are you also aware that there are cancer organizations that have had their share of scandal from embezzlements?

That's not what I'm implying and you know it.

Consider the totality of my comments in this thread--instead of just cherry picking quotes to try to start an argument--and you will see my meaning is clear. The charity has negative associations because of its connection to Armstrong. These companies know that and if the mission was really more important than their association to Lance and whatever financial benefit they can still squeeze from it, they would say so and go quietly support a cancer charity that has no association with him.

Of course I'm "aware" other charities have had problems, but their problems are irrelevant to this conversation. Please take your high school debate tricks someplace else. They piss people off, me included.

BBD

[R2D2]

There will always be doping in every sport. Trying to end doping in sports is like trying to end online piracy. You'd have to end the sport. I don't think Lance is a piece of **** for creating a cancer charity that helps people live better lives. I don't think he is a piece for doping either. Arguing over who is the worst cyclist for doping is a silly argument that can (and probably will) be argued ad nauseum. He was simply the best doped rider in a field of doped riders. Probably the best doped rider ever. The field continues to be filled with doped riders. We want to tear him down because he is the best. People will use whatever excuse they can to say how he is somehow worse, that he was the only person running a sophisticated doping program. All the doping programs were sophisticated, enough so to avoid detection for years. As a cancer survivor he was an inspiration to me and many other cancer surviving athletes and I will see that in him first before anything else.
Festina's wasn't too sophisticated...............

[Rueda Tropical]

There will always be doping in every sport. Trying to end doping in sports is like trying to end online piracy.

There will always be crime, corruption in government and business so I guess we should just give up and do away with rules, laws and cops as its a hopeless case? Now, the cheaters and frauds are the victims?

This has nothing to do with Armstrong's activities outside of cycling. He cheated, he got busted, end of story. He's not a victim. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Nothing worse then someone getting nailed red handed and then whining about how it was a witch hunt and playing the victim.

LA cheated, made millions doing it. Thought nothing of destroying anyone who threatened his scam. Now he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. That's as it should be.

[Pandergosk]

@ Rueda- An Argument by oversimplification only sounds good to beings that see only in black and white. In some countries woman can be murdered for cheating on their husbands, while in America cheating has almost become part of our culture. Lance should be punished, but his punishment should match that of the other dopers, none of who have been attacked quite like he has. Yes, he is a victim of sorts, and also a perpetrator.

I think he should be punished but not forgotten from cycling and people should definitely leave Live Strong out of it.

[Rueda Tropical]

@ Rueda- An Argument by oversimplification only sounds good to beings that see only in black and white. In some countries woman can be murdered for cheating on their husbands, while in America cheating has almost become part of our culture. Lance should be punished, but his punishment should match that of the other dopers, none of who have been attacked quite like he has. Yes, he is a victim of sorts, and also a perpetrator.

I think he should be punished but not forgotten from cycling and people should definitely leave Live Strong out of it.

He stopped being a "victim" when he went from doping pro to doping enforcer and doping boss. As far as his sanctions - he could have had the same deal his teammates had if he chose to cooperate. He chose not to. His choice to continue the lie.

Given the central, high profile role he played and his continued attempts to thwart anti-doping authorities and prevent the truth from coming out - he deserves to "have the book thrown at him".

The cheating part, the doping - that part is black & white. You did it or you didn't. You cheated to win by breaking the rules or you didn't. There are a lot of grey areas but that's pretty straight forward.

He was a key player in using blood doping to make cycling a fraud ridden joke where your doping program determined your standing. He won't be forgotten, he just won't be remembered for anything positive. His legacy in cycling will be as the biggest cheat in the sports history.

[Elefantino]

I will stick to my statement: I would gladly have a beer with Jan or Greg. I would NOT do so with Lance.

You hate Michelob Ultra that much, huh? :D

[Germany_chris]

Does anyone have a list of sponsors that dropped Lance? I want to insure that I never buy anything from them again.

[jr59]

He stopped being a "victim" when he went from doping pro to doping enforcer and doping boss. As far as his sanctions - he could have had the same deal his teammates had if he chose to cooperate. He chose not to. His choice to continue the lie.

Given the central, high profile role he played and his continued attempts to thwart anti-doping authorities and prevent the truth from coming out - he deserves to "have the book thrown at him".

The cheating part, the doping - that part is black & white. You did it or you didn't. You cheated to win by breaking the rules or you didn't. There are a lot of grey areas but that's pretty straight forward.

He was a key player in using blood doping to make cycling a fraud ridden joke where your doping program determined your standing. He won't be forgotten, he just won't be remembered for anything positive. His legacy in cycling will be as the biggest cheat in the sports history.

Could not DISAGREE in more with any of this. Well.. except for the part about LA using PEDs.

The other IMO is just hype, and dribble. Lance did not make cycling a dope ridden sport. Thats been going on for over a 100 years. To think otherwise is either over simplification or foolish. Look it up!

Blood doping has been around since the 70's. look up Pat McDonough.


I can understand your dislike of LA. That's ok! But please, at least use some facts in the dis like of him. He did not invent blood doping, nor bring it to the forefront. La was not the first cyclist to use dope, nor will he be the last. What he did do was rub people the wrong way, and had people around him that thought the same way.
Oh yea, LA also rode his bike a LOT better than anyone else of his time. Did he use dope to do this? yep! Yet please show me the riders that didn't at said time!

[laupsi]

Could not DISAGREE in more with any of this. Well.. except for the part about LA using PEDs.

The other IMO is just hype, and dribble. Lance did not make cycling a dope ridden sport. Thats been going on for over a 100 years. To think otherwise is either over simplification or foolish. Look it up!

Blood doping has been around since the 70's. look up Pat McDonough.


I can understand your dislike of LA. That's ok! But please, at least use some facts in the dis like of him. He did not invent blood doping, nor bring it to the forefront. La was not the first cyclist to use dope, nor will he be the last. What he did do was rub people the wrong way, and had people around him that thought the same way.
Oh yea, LA also rode his bike a LOT better than anyone else of his time. Did he use dope to do this? yep! Yet please show me the riders that didn't at said time!

Speaking strickly for myself, I agree w/everything you've state above, but you did leave out one important fact. LA coerced his fellow teammates and put them in a "no win" situation. If teammates refused to "be on board" they were tossed aside like an old pair of shoes. Because of this disrespect shown on the part of LA I lost all respect and pity for him despite his great athletic ability and prowess. For this LA deserves everything coming his way now and in the future until there is a comitted, dedicated and sincere apology and rectification! :no:

[Rueda Tropical]

The other IMO is just hype, and dribble. Lance did not make cycling a dope ridden sport. Thats been going on for over a 100 years. To think otherwise is either over simplification or foolish. Look it up!

After Festina teams wondered if this was the beginning of a cleaner era. Lance put that question to rest with his first Tour win and a positive test where a back dated TUE was allowed. The teams got the message. Armstrong was setting the bar for what it took to win post-Festina.

Talking about doping has always been a problem is meaningless. We are looking at the role Armstrong and his team played in modern doping practices. You think USPS/Radioshack had no role in shaping the way teams approached doping having won 7 TdF's?

Generalizations about everyone does it and always did it is dribble and oversimplification. Justification for cheating and an attempt to refuse personal responsibility for ones own actions.

[jr59]

After Festina teams wondered if this was the beginning of a cleaner era. Lance put that question to rest with his first Tour win and a positive test where a back dated TUE was allowed. The teams got the message. Armstrong was setting the bar for what it took to win post-Festina.

Talking about doping has always been a problem is meaningless. We are looking at the role Armstrong and his team played in modern doping practices. You think USPS/Radioshack had no role in shaping the way teams approached doping having won 7 TdF's?

Generalizations about everyone does it and always did it is dribble and oversimplification. Justification for cheating and an attempt to refuse personal responsibility for ones own actions.

You think USPS/raidoshack were the first? You really think other teams/riders are not doing/trying the same things if not worse? Really???

No where have I stated that doping was/is ok! No one is using any justication for cheating at all. That is very black and white. Cheating is cheating.

But the fact remains, that pro cycling has been ridden by drug use for a LONG, long time! Since the start of it really.

I think LA was the greatest cyclist of his time. As I have said many times before in many different places; don't talk to me about doping in cycling and Lance, unless you include the names of Merckx, Coppi, and Anquetil, just to name a few!

[William]

You think USPS/raidoshack were the first? You really think other teams/riders are not doing/trying the same things if not worse? Really???...



...I think LA was the greatest cyclist of his time. As I have said many times before in many different places; don't talk to me about doping in cycling and Lance, unless you include the names of Merckx, Coppi, and Anquetil, just to name a few!

I don't think his point was that they were the first, it was that they took doping to a whole new level.






William

[Germany_chris]

And I think his point was that he didn't..

[Tony T]

That's not what I'm implying and you know it.

...You said that Nike should not support LiveStrong and should instead give the money to "another well-positioned HONEST cancer charity" Your emphasis on honest implies that LiveStrong is not.

If you took the time to do a little research, you would see that LiveStrong does more for cancer patients and their families than those other charities that you want contributions to be diverted to.

[jr59]

I don't think his point was that they were the first, it was that they took doping to a whole new level.






William

My point is they were/are not the only ones that learned how to beat the test!
If they were, they didn't read the sports pages much. I give you BALCO, and Flo-jo. Who never tested postive either!

It's out there in how to beat the test, has been for years and years. In a sport that is ripe with drug use, why wouldn't pro cyclist seek out that info?

Lance rub people the wrong way in life, and that has come back to bite him.
He doped, without doubt. But he did not bring drug use to a new level. They just caught him at beating the test.

Again, if you think BALCO is the only lab doing this, I don't know what to tell you.:confused:

[BumbleBeeDave]

...You said that Nike should not support LiveStrong and should instead give the money to "another well-positioned HONEST cancer charity" Your emphasis on honest implies that LiveStrong is not.

If you took the time to do a little research, you would see that LiveStrong does more for cancer patients and their families than those other charities that you want contributions to be diverted to.

. . . you seize on a detail out of the context of the whole of my comments in this thread. The context of ALL my posts in THIS thread makes clear I meant one that appears to be honest IN RELATION to the current situation vis-a-vis Armstrong.

YOUR emphasis on picking DETAILS our of MY total comments in order to STIR UP arguments clearly seems to be PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE and contributes nothing to THIS thread or to THIS forum.

How's THAT? Is THAT enough EMPHASIS for you?

Sheesh . . .

BBD

[William]

My point is they were/are not the only ones that learned how to beat the test!
If they were, they didn't read the sports pages much. I give you BALCO, and Flo-jo. Who never tested postive either!

It's out there in how to beat the test, has been for years and years. In a sport that is ripe with drug use, why wouldn't pro cyclist seek out that info?

Lance rub people the wrong way in life, and that has come back to bite him.
He doped, without doubt. But he did not bring drug use to a new level. They just caught him at beating the test.

Again, if you think BALCO is the only lab doing this, I don't know what to tell you.:confused:

Yeah, I get that. And I've pointed out the Balco/Jones example many times as well. I think it's pretty clear that they systematized it a way that hadn't been done up to this point. Interesting how many former riders got popped after they left the team. No one said other teams weren't doing it.

Cheating is and always will be part of competition and life. Sucks but it is what it is.





William

[fiamme red]

I think LA was the greatest cyclist of his time. As I have said many times before in many different places; don't talk to me about doping in cycling and Lance, unless you include the names of Merckx, Coppi, and Anquetil, just to name a few!By doping I understand to mean the use of banned substances. So Coppi never doped, and Anquetil didn't dope until the end of his career. Performance-enhancing drugs weren't illegal until 1965.

[Rada]

That they're liars and cheats? Yes. That they're POSs? No.

I'm not a 'hater,' by the way.

Now who is lying?

[PQJ]

I think LA was the greatest cyclist of his time.

Lance was unquestionably the greatest cyclist of his time who focused exclusively on one race throughout the season and who had an entire organization 100% committed to ensuring his victory in that one race by whatever means possible.

You insult Merckx, Coppi and Anquetil by including Lance among them.

[PQJ]

Now who is lying?

You perhaps?

[BumbleBeeDave]

You perhaps?

Take it offline, please. :no:

BBD

[jr59]

Lance was unquestionably the greatest cyclist of his time who focused exclusively on one race throughout the season and who had an entire organization 100% committed to ensuring his victory in that one race by whatever means possible.

You insult Merckx, Coppi and Anquetil by including Lance among them.


Not in terms of doping!

[PQJ]

Take it offline, please. :no:

BBD

In my defense, I have not done anything to Rada warranting his inference that I'm a liar (indeed, I'm not sure I've ever directly responded to him except today). He seems to have issues with people who are critical of Armstrong and I won't stand for his prickishness.

[Rueda Tropical]

You think USPS/raidoshack were the first? You really think other teams/riders are not doing/trying the same things if not worse? Really???

No where have I stated that doping was/is ok! No one is using any justication for cheating at all. That is very black and white. Cheating is cheating.

But the fact remains, that pro cycling has been ridden by drug use for a LONG, long time! Since the start of it really.

I think LA was the greatest cyclist of his time. As I have said many times before in many different places; don't talk to me about doping in cycling and Lance, unless you include the names of Merckx, Coppi, and Anquetil, just to name a few!

Nothing to do with being first. Right after Festina cycling was at a cross roads. Many assumed that going forward things would be cleaner. One group of players was instrumental in making sure that did not happen and instead of a ckeaner cycling spawned the modern age of doping. Weisel, Verbuggen, Armstrong and Ferrari stand above all others as bad actors in the current sport.

Doping will always be a part of the sport but if you clean out the corruption at the top it will be peripheral and not determinant of the season standings and who wins the the biggest stage races.

As far as Armstrong's athletic abilities... we'll never know whether he would have been a champion or pack fodder. It's pointless speculation, because you have no data of him competing clean in a clean peloton to prove what he could have done without Ferrari and Verbuggen.

[PQJ]

As far as Armstrong's athletic abilities... we'll never know whether he would have been a champion or pack fodder. It's pointless speculation, because you have no data of him competing clean in a clean peloton to prove what he could have done without Ferrari and Verbuggen.

Bingo.

[fiamme red]

You insult Merckx, Coppi and Anquetil by including Lance among them.Not in terms of doping!The doping of Merckx, Coppi and Anquetil was child's play compared to Armstrong's.

[jr59]

Nothing to do with being first. Right after Festina cycling was at a cross roads. Many assumed that going forward things would be cleaner. One group of players was instrumental in making sure that did not happen and instead of a ckeaner cycling spawned the modern age of doping. Weisel, Verbuggen, Armstrong and Ferrari stand above all others as bad actors in the current sport.

Doping will always be a part of the sport but if you clean out the corruption at the top it will be peripheral and not determinant of the season standings and who wins the the biggest stage races.

As far as Armstrong's athletic abilities... we'll never know whether he would have been a champion or pack fodder. It's pointless speculation, because you have no data of him competing clean in a clean peloton to prove what he could have done without Ferrari and Verbuggen.

One team got caught. Given, but as I said before, Ways to beat the tests have been out in the world for some time. They are not to hard to find! I don't think there was only one team involved in doping! But ONE team and their leader got caught!

I never said Lance was the greatest of all time. I said he was the greatest of his time. If I have no data of a clean pelton, then what should I use?

Again if you think/believe that Ferrari and BALCO were the only lab/Drs doing this, well I hope you are correct. But I do not think so. The Drs and labs will always be ahead of the testers! And IMO; pro cycling will always be as it has been, a doped sporting event. History always repetes it's self!

[malcolm]

You can't compare doping now to doping in the past except in the terms of they used what was available to improve/enhance their performance and the legality of it at the time and maybe the degree to which being legal or illegal makes it cheating.

The guys that doped both past and present had the same drive to be faster the more recent guys just had more technology on their side both in methods of doping and covering it up.

I think we give the effect of doping more credit than it deserves. It certainly enhances performance, but a silk purse from a sow's ear it does not make. Make no mistake genetics has selected these guys most likely long before they start to dope. I would suspect that pack fodder at a grand tour is in the top 5% of endurance athletes on the planet, the pointy edge in the mtns 1%, doping probably gives them that extra few % and the ability to recover a little better. Doped or not these guys are better endurance athletes than most of us could ever hope to be no matter what we took.

[G-Reg]

Does anyone have a list of sponsors that dropped Lance? I want to insure that I never buy anything from them again.

Nike, Trek, Mich Ultra and honeystinger are the ones I know of.

I emailed each of them and thanked them for the continued support of Livestrong and suggested they reconsider a relationship with Lance in the future.

I will continue to support.

[G-Reg]

. . . simply announce they are now going to give the same amount of money to the Cancer society or another well-positioned HONEST cancer charity and get out of this fix.

This would make it clear they still respect and want to help with the fight against cancer AND make clear they do not approve of what Lance represents.

BBD

What is it that leads you to think that Livestrong is not well positioned and honest?

[jr59]

The doping of Merckx, Coppi and Anquetil was child's play compared to Armstrong's.

Just because of the time. They all did the dope that they knew would best help them win at the time.

[Dave B]

Nike, Trek, Mich Ultra and honeystinger are the ones I know of.

I emailed each of them and thanked them for the continued support of Livestrong and suggested they reconsider a relationship with Lance in the future.

I will continue to support.

Oakley as well.

[Tony T]

Oakley as well.

...and Honeystinger

[weiwentg]

What is it that leads you to think that Livestrong is not well positioned and honest?

their lobbyist discussed USADA's funding with a congressman, in relation to Armstrong's situation. that is very suspect.

http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303612804577531353567249064.html?m g=reno64-wsj

it is also only one incident, though. I haven't heard anything about them being corrupt. they do spend 80+% of their revenue on actual programs, as opposed to staff salaries and lobbying, which is good. their administrative expenses and fundraising efficiency (how much it costs to raise a dollar of revenue) are good. quantitatively, no apparent red flags from Charity Navigator's report (may require a sign in).

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570

looking at their Form 990 (which charities have to file with the IRS annually), it appears like the majority of grants they make are for community impact projects, and the majority of their own revenue is spent on their own programming. Livestrong is about supporting cancer survivors, not providing funding to cancer research. but there are a bunch of people funding research already, like NIH and the pharma companies. so this is not necessarily a criticism.

I'm not going to give to them on principle, until they kick Armstrong off, because I think Armstrong is a POS and that's my personal judgment. but we haven't heard any systemic proof that Livestrong is a corrupt organization. if they were, they would likely overpay their officers and maybe board members. that's the first place I'd look. they're not, at least not in relation to their total revenues. they're spending their money on actual programs.

[Rada]

In my defense, I have not done anything to Rada warranting his inference that I'm a liar (indeed, I'm not sure I've ever directly responded to him except today). He seems to have issues with people who are critical of Armstrong and I won't stand for his prickishness.

Exactly what issues are you referring to? I have questioned the process, nothing wrong with believing in that a man has a right to be innocent until proven guilty. I am not in total agreement with USDA procedures, but it has proven Armstrong's guilt. So please continue with your own personal self-rigtheous "prickishness".

[Rueda Tropical]

One team got caught. Given, but as I said before, Ways to beat the tests have been out in the world for some time. They are not to hard to find! I don't think there was only one team involved in doping! But ONE team and their leader got caught!

I never said Lance was the greatest of all time. I said he was the greatest of his time. If I have no data of a clean pelton, then what should I use?

Again if you think/believe that Ferrari and BALCO were the only lab/Drs doing this, well I hope you are correct. But I do not think so. The Drs and labs will always be ahead of the testers! And IMO; pro cycling will always be as it has been, a doped sporting event. History always repetes it's self!

No Ferrari and USPS were not the only ones. But the Tour after Festina was a potential turning point. There were more clean riders and teams then the year before and after. Armstrong opened up a new arms race and every one jumped back in full go after Armstrongs victory. It was a clear declaration by the UCI what the rules post-Festina were going to be and Armstrong was the messenger.

No one can say who the greatest athlete of Lance's time was - just who the most successful doper and cheat was. Not the same thing.

[PQJ]

Exactly what issues are you referring to? I have questioned the process, nothing wrong with believing in that a man has a right to be innocent until proven guilty. I am not in total agreement with USDA procedures, but it has proven Armstrong's guilt. So please continue with your own personal self-rigtheous "prickishness".

Now who is lying?

Also, the us dept of agriculture had nothing to do with it.

[Germany_chris]

Nike, Trek, Mich Ultra and honeystinger are the ones I know of.

I emailed each of them and thanked them for the continued support of Livestrong and suggested they reconsider a relationship with Lance in the future.

I will continue to support.
Dunno what honeystinger is but no more nike for me.

Oakley as well.

This one will hurt..

...and Honeystinger

What is Honeystinger?

[fiamme red]

What is Honeystinger?Honeystinger (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=honeystinger)

[JeffS]

Oh yea, LA also rode his bike a LOT better than anyone else of his time. Did he use dope to do this? yep! Yet please show me the riders that didn't at said time!


What's your point?

A couple years ago, the threads were half full of people claiming he didn't do it. Now the threads are half full of people talking about how everyone was doing it.

We all know that. What are people trying to accomplish by continuing to repeat it? Inevitably many of them find the need to put a disclaimer at the end of their post that they're not defending him. So what are you doing?

The obvious does not need to be stated this many times. Someone please enlighten me.

[Tony T]

What is Honeystinger?

Gotta love those waffles :):banana::) (and the energy gel's are also great!)

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server2000/a9df0/products/115/images/309/ChocoWaffle_TopOut__46186.1336599247.1280.1280.jpg
(http://www.honeystinger.com)

[DY123]

JeffS it's all about people not being able to admit they made a mistake. They justify and justify but they never really say they were wrong.

Their position evolves. First, Armstrong is clean. Second, well maybe he did dope, but if he did, it's just because everyone else did. Now it's yes he did and he was the best in the world at it, so clearly still deserving of his victories. The others were lazy dopers. Armstrong worked harder and is still a champion.

I wish they'd just come out and admit they were duped. It would really let the healing begin.

[Rada]

Now who is lying?

Also, the us dept of agriculture had nothing to do with it.

Crap, yeah you got me, USDA wasn't involved. So I quess if you define lying as such I'll cop to that. I'll stand by my second comment though.

[PQJ]

Crap, yeah you got me, USDA wasn't involved. So I quess if you define lying as such I'll cop to that. I'll stand by my second comment though.

That was the most glaringly obvious error, but not the only one. Adios, Rada.

[Elefantino]

What's your point?

A couple years ago, the threads were half full of people claiming he didn't do it. Now the threads are half full of people talking about how everyone was doing it.

We all know that. What are people trying to accomplish by continuing to repeat it? Inevitably many of them find the need to put a disclaimer at the end of their post that they're not defending him. So what are you doing?

The obvious does not need to be stated this many times. Someone please enlighten me.


Lance is a hero. He won the Tour seven times.

Lance is a fighter. He stands up to those who call him a cheater.

Lance is human. He breaks his collarbone.

Lance is amazing. He comes back from a four-year layoff to podium.

Lance is human, again. He shows that age is, well, age.

Lance is Lance Inc. Post-cycling, he's everywhere.

Lance is a victim. All these people are starting to say mean things about him.

Lance is on his high horse. He's not going to deal with a witch hunt conducted with serial perjurers and liars.

Lance falls off. Overwhelming testimony masterminded the most abominable doping organization in sports history.

Lance is ...oops. Turns out he's the serial perjurer and liar.

Lance is in the wilderness. He even takes "7-time Tour de France champion from his Twitter handle.

Lance is a hero again. He confesses to years of doping, says the sport's culture and team management made him do it, says he's going to help stop doping once and for all.


:D

[Rada]

That was the most glaringly obvious error, but not the only one. Adios, Rada.

I'm sure you are right as you always must. This has already gone way past what BBD has asked and I will respect his wishes and not reply any further to you on the open boards.

[Vientomas]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

[Germany_chris]

Gotta love those waffles :):banana::) (and the energy gel's are also great!)

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server2000/a9df0/products/115/images/309/ChocoWaffle_TopOut__46186.1336599247.1280.1280.jpg
(http://www.honeystinger.com)

Yea so I wouldn't know about those :)

[djg21]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

The "Reader's Digest" condensed version is here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrongs-influence-extends-beyond-sport:

"A new report by notable sports journalist Selena Roberts demonstrates that Armstrong attempted not only to influence sport but to take on politics at the highest level.?"

[William]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

Wow, if true it shows that he has no qualms about wrapping the cloak of helping cancer patients around himself for cover.

Reminds me of a certain quote:

“In every age it has been the tyrant, the oppressor and the exploiter who has wrapped himself in the cloak of patriotism, or religion, or both to deceive and overawe the People."






William

[GregL]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

Very, very interesting. Perhaps the most compelling article yet on the amount of influence Armstrong had in and out of the cycling world. With apologies to Euripides, "Those that the gods destroy, they first make proud." And no one had more pride than Armstrong...

Greg

[tuxbailey]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

That was a very interesting read. The man sure has an ego and perhaps thought of himself as a god with a big chip on his shoulder.

[Black Dog]

Did Armstrong not get paid by Livestrong to appear at their events? If I am wrong please correct me. Seems a bit cheesy to me. No saying it is illegal, just cheesy.

[malcolm]

Interesting read, the only part I had trouble with was the poor Dave Z bit about how he was forced. I don't buy it for a minute, rings of after the fact regret to me.

[rwsaunders]

The doping of Merckx, Coppi and Anquetil was child's play compared to Armstrong's.

I bet if they had access to the same cookie jar of goodies, the temptation would have been strong.

[Rueda Tropical]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

Wow, he's like a cartoon villain. What a dirtbag. The character described in the Secret Race was a socio-path but this adds another layer of arrogance and sleaze.

[Elefantino]

Wow, if true it shows that he has no qualms about wrapping the cloak of helping cancer patients around himself for cover.
OK, so maybe he doesn't become a hero again after all.

I believe tax receipts would show if, indeed, Armstrong pulled $500k from the Canadian ride.

Then we would have a smoking gun that he extorted people using cancer as the weapon.

And that would preclude his ever, ever warming his way back into the hearts of people. Some people.

[G-Reg]

Interesting read: http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/1/

Almost complete BS! This is one of the problems with the internet. People can blog any damn thing they want and someone will take it as gospel.

[Tony T]

Almost complete BS! This is one of the problems with the internet. People can blog any damn thing they want and someone will take it as gospel.

Yep. This post was referenced a few times: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-860283 as a slam on LiveStrong, yet he's "skeptical as to whether Armstrong ever really was a cancer victim/survivor or whether this was another of his scams to fool the world"

[jlwdm]

Hincapie violated a tour rule by dating a podium girl - and then married her. Does he have to give her back? Who to?

Jeff

[Elefantino]

Hincapie violated a tour rule by dating a podium girl - and then married her. Does he have to give her back? Who to?

Jeff
Not sure anyone would want her back.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/279/363/2007_melanie_hincapie_display_image.jpg?1277917411

[Vientomas]

Almost complete BS! This is one of the problems with the internet. People can blog any damn thing they want and someone will take it as gospel.

I just thought it was an interesting read, but your comment promoted me to look into the author's background.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selena_Roberts:

Selena Roberts (born May 16, 1966 in Live Oak, Florida) is an American author, sportswriter, digital entrepreneur. Previously, Selena was a senior writer for Sports Illustrated and a columnist for the New York Times. Selena began her award-winning career as a beat writer for the Minnesota Vikings at the Minneapolis Star Tribune and for the Orlando Magic and Tampa Bay Buccaneers at the Orlando Sentinel. She received a B.A. degree in journalism from Auburn University in 1988 where she was a sports editor for the university's paper The Plainsman.[1] She also made frequent appearances on the ESPN talk show The Sports Reporters.[2] In a February 7, 2009 article on SI.com that quickly made the cover of Sports Illustrated, Roberts revealed that Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003.[3] Her story is widely viewed as one of the most influential and groundbreaking pieces of the modern era.

So, which part of the article is complete BS?

[G-Reg]

I just thought it was an interesting read, but your comment promoted me to look into the author's background.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selena_Roberts:

Selena Roberts (born May 16, 1966 in Live Oak, Florida) is an American author, sportswriter, digital entrepreneur. Previously, Selena was a senior writer for Sports Illustrated and a columnist for the New York Times. Selena began her award-winning career as a beat writer for the Minnesota Vikings at the Minneapolis Star Tribune and for the Orlando Magic and Tampa Bay Buccaneers at the Orlando Sentinel. She received a B.A. degree in journalism from Auburn University in 1988 where she was a sports editor for the university's paper The Plainsman.[1] She also made frequent appearances on the ESPN talk show The Sports Reporters.[2] In a February 7, 2009 article on SI.com that quickly made the cover of Sports Illustrated, Roberts revealed that Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003.[3] Her story is widely viewed as one of the most influential and groundbreaking pieces of the modern era.

So, which part of the article is complete BS?

All of it.

Also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selena_Roberts

"In January of 2012, Selena left her position at Sports Illustrated and founded Roopstigo, an innovative sports application and website that aims to re-imagine how sports content is both presented and consumed. Roopstigo, available for free on iPhone, iPad, Droid, and Kindle Fire combines text, audio, video, and animation across 5+ distinct channels of original premium content. Contributors include renowned sports media figures such as False Spring author Pat Jordan and filmmaker Adam Kurland."

She affectively wrote a "shock" piece to promote her failing brand. None of her previous employers would have allowed it.

[Vientomas]

Shocking that it is true? If not, what is BS?

[Charles M]

I would guess it fair to expect Tyler, Floyd, Frankie et all to cough up the cash bonuses paid out as well no?

In fact, why have they not come up with that pile of cash already given this was all about fair play and making things right in the world...

[Rueda Tropical]

I would guess it fair to expect Tyler, Floyd, Frankie et all to cough up the cash bonuses paid out as well no?

In fact, why have they not come up with that pile of cash already given this was all about fair play and making things right in the world...

I expect if Lance has to pay up he'll sue them for the part they got of his purses as they were all doping together. There will be consequences for all involved that have not yet played out. I doubt any of these guys are going to be getting off easy.