weighing the front during descending

[etu]

as a below-average descender, i have noticed that my confidence around turns is much better when i shift my weight way forward. i can sense the traction of the rubber to the asphalt and get positive feedback when i when apply pressure to the outside foot or the inside handlebar. when i brake, i shift my weight back, but the general recommendation of generally keeping weight a bit further back on descents seems to be off. can any of the descending gurus please comment on this?

[Tandem Rider]

For dry pavement only, if wet, most of this won't help you. In my stupidity, I have learned, don't use cx tires for fast cornering on pavement.

Equal (as equal as I can make it) weight on front and rear.

Hands on the drops. Outside foot down, most of my weight on that foot.

Push the inside bar down farther so that the bike actually is leaning slightly farther than I am. If you get nervous that you are overcooking the turn, push the bar down farther yet. You will run out of nerve waaaay before you run out of traction.

DO NOT TOUCH THE BRAKES after the turn is initiated. The odds of crashing if you touch the brakes go up greatly.

Practice

Practice

When you finally "get it" you will feel like the bike is on a rail. Downhills will become great fun rather than just a place to rest.

[Dave]

Putting your weight on the outside pedal actually increases the amount of weight on the front wheel, much like moving forward on the saddle might. This can easily be proven by placing a bath scale under the front tire and watching the weight change. Lowering the torso angle also places more weight on the front wheel.

As for pushing down on the the inside bar, that is not what makes a bike lean into a turn. When you take a motorcycle training course, one of the first things you learn is how countersteering works. If you push forward on the inside bar, (like trying to turn left for a right-hand turn), that's countersteering and that's what makes the bike lean to the right so it can turn to the right. It's likely that someone pushing down on a hooked bar is also pushing forward enough to countersteer.

The difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle is that a bicycle requires so little effort to countersteer, riders do it without even noticing it. A motorcycle requires a substantial push on the bars and the push must be maintained, or it will quit turning. Speed changes also affect a turn in-progress. More speed will widen the turn and less speed will tighten it, unless corrections to the countersteering pressure are made.

On a long mountain descent with many turns, you can prove to yourself how countersteering works. A turn can be successfuly negotiated, with only the pushing hand in the hook area, using an open palm, so no pulling can be done. When the turn approaches, a gentle push will lean the bike and begin the turn. If the bike is turning too sharply, all you have to do is reduce the pushing force and the turn will widen. Part of this is due to the fact that braking is done ahead of the turn, so the bike is accelerating through the turn and acceleration widens the turn, if the countersteering pressure is reduced.

[carpediemracing]

I'm convinced that a lot of "poor descenders" are actually simply "poor cornerers", meaning the corners are what are causing the problems. Your post kind of says this, that you're uncertain in corners.

Weighting the front, however you do it, helps with turn in and traction. You can have the rear tire slide around a bit and easily stay upright but when the front wheel goes out it's hard to recover from it. You need that front tire on the ground to corner hard.

On downhills, especially switchbacks, you automatically weight the front wheel a bit more because the bike is pointing down.

I found that if I get scared in a turn I slide back on the saddle and basically unweight the front of the bike. This makes the bike worse and I get more scared. When I "press down" on the bars it really helps (that's the sensation, not sure what I'm doing from a step by step, exact motion breakdown). I carve with the front tire; the rest of the bike follows.

However... if you're using the wrong line then it won't help much. All too often a rider nervous about cornering will turn in early. This is the worst thing to do. You give yourself much more leeway in the second half of the turn if you turn in late.

Switchbacks:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2011/04/racing-switchback-descents.html

Practice cornering all the time:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-to-lazy-steering.html

Working on "descending":
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2012/01/training-working-on-descending.html

hope this helps
cdr

[dsb]

Maybe this helps?

http://mybloodybikeblog.com/cutting-corners/

Dave

[John H.]

You are wrong- poor descenders are not neccessarily poor at cornering, nor do you have to corner fast to descend fast.
Fast descending is about comfort at speed (not grabbing brakes), taking good lines, and making good decisions.
You do not need to be able to rip corners at max traction to descend fast.
To the OP- is it possible that your fit is off in a way that does not encourage even weight distribution for descending?

I'm convinced that a lot of "poor descenders" are actually simply "poor cornerers", meaning the corners are what are causing the problems. Your post kind of says this, that you're uncertain in corners.

Weighting the front, however you do it, helps with turn in and traction. You can have the rear tire slide around a bit and easily stay upright but when the front wheel goes out it's hard to recover from it. You need that front tire on the ground to corner hard.

On downhills, especially switchbacks, you automatically weight the front wheel a bit more because the bike is pointing down.

I found that if I get scared in a turn I slide back on the saddle and basically unweight the front of the bike. This makes the bike worse and I get more scared. When I "press down" on the bars it really helps (that's the sensation, not sure what I'm doing from a step by step, exact motion breakdown). I carve with the front tire; the rest of the bike follows.

However... if you're using the wrong line then it won't help much. All too often a rider nervous about cornering will turn in early. This is the worst thing to do. You give yourself much more leeway in the second half of the turn if you turn in late.

Switchbacks:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2011/04/racing-switchback-descents.html

Practice cornering all the time:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-to-lazy-steering.html

Working on "descending":
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2012/01/training-working-on-descending.html

hope this helps
cdr

[DRietz]

You are wrong- poor descenders are not neccessarily poor at cornering, nor do you have to corner fast to descend fast.
Fast descending is about comfort at speed (not grabbing brakes), taking good lines, and making good decisions.
You do not need to be able to rip corners at max traction to descend fast.
To the OP- is it possible that your fit is off in a way that does not encourage even weight distribution for descending?

I don't think you can objectively say "You're wrong" because both you and Aki are correct.

[ultraman6970]

"""I'm convinced that a lot of "poor descenders" are actually simply "poor cornerers"""".... wheel you have to do this more generalized... :) mostly all of the bad descenders have really bad handling skills.

The bicycle helps a lot too but in general..." IF you can't handle the bike, then you can't go downhill fast".

Some can't climb the stairs, other ones can't descent the drive way, and others can't handle the bike even in a oval car racing track going 2 mph.

[Chance]

as a below-average descender, i have noticed that my confidence around turns is much better when i shift my weight way forward. i can sense the traction of the rubber to the asphalt and get positive feedback when i when apply pressure to the outside foot or the inside handlebar. when i brake, i shift my weight back, but the general recommendation of generally keeping weight a bit further back on descents seems to be off. can any of the descending gurus please comment on this?

So if front wheel weight was the main issue, does this mean that heavier riders don't need to shift their weight forward since it's already higher, and that light riders wouldn't be able to shift weight forward enough to descend fast because the front tire couldn't get enough traction?

Pretty sure there is a lot more than weight at play in what you describe.

[false_Aest]

Countersteering (as others have said).
body-english.
slowing before the turn not in the turn -- notice I didn't say braking.
consistently finding the apex.
using the entire road width (if possible).
relaxing while in the drops.
accepting the fact that you will crash at some point.
longer, lower stem*


but as others have said, if you can't handle a bike none of this will help.


*(anecdotal evidence) i had a 120 with ~8cm of saddle-bar drop. was refit to a 110 with ~5cm drop. power on flats is up, weight distribution on descending isn't so great. i'm trying to find a midpoint now.

[Chance]

Weighting the front, however you do it, helps with turn in and traction. You can have the rear tire slide around a bit and easily stay upright but when the front wheel goes out it's hard to recover from it. You need that front tire on the ground to corner hard.



Agree with above. The reason is that when rear tire slides around a rider can compensate by steering the front tire to keep the bike upright. When the front tire is the one that slides, the rider can't effectively steer the rear tire so the bike's lean angle can't match the turning radius. Hence why we almost always go down when the front tire loses traction. So if we are going to play it safe, it's best to gamble with the rear tire losing traction first. Not sure however this implies we need more weight on front tire. A better question is how much is enough or the right amount because a rider could end up with too much weight up front.

[ultraman6970]

Part of the trick of going downhill is to be well fit over the bike plus good handling. Guys that seat like 6 feet behind the rear wheel always descent badly because the fit is wrong, even in the flats you can tell the handling is bad, not oven talk about the guys with the stem flipped up, my 5 y/o handles the bike better than them.

[Chance]

As for pushing down on the the inside bar, that is not what makes a bike lean into a turn. When you take a motorcycle training course, one of the first things you learn is how countersteering works. If you push forward on the inside bar, (like trying to turn left for a right-hand turn), that's countersteering and that's what makes the bike lean to the right so it can turn to the right. It's likely that someone pushing down on a hooked bar is also pushing forward enough to countersteer.


Doesn't sound the same to me. What you describe doesn't sound like countersteering. At least not how it's normally applied to bicycles. Sounds more like what wikipedia calls steer torque which they describe as a steady force on the bars used to hold a radius. Countersteering is a momentary input to initiate proper lean angle. Are they wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

[giverdada]

getting your weight over the back wheel is great for mountain biking when the front end will be the first thing to hit a massive rock or take the dive off that drop ledge. getting your weight over the front wheel will make a well-designed, well-fitted bike carve turns with more traction and authoritative stability, in my own experience. everyone's mileage may vary.

after getting my custom road bike built up, i carved like never before. actually, i carved just like before, on my former frame, a non-custom-to-me serotta ti. apparently both bikes have an 8-cm BB drop which lends great stability. i like this a lot. i eventually put on some crazy-light tubular wheels. they came in somewhere around or under 1400g for the set. i glued up the tires and took it for a rip. the descending was wobbly, a little too responsive, and definitely not the carving rocket it had been. i posted on here about this. i contacted the builder. the general recommendation was to get more weight over the front end. this improved things, but didn't fix them outright. and sometimes, that style of tuck or position didn't really suit the terrain, and getting out of it just made everything worse.

then someone, probably old potatoe, told me to check out rim weight. i built up a heavier wheel with a generic ringle hub and a wide velocity A23 rim, sapim race spokes. heavier wheel all around. handling went through the roof. i am back to carving as best i can, and the whole front end feels absolutely solid, but still fast. i think about going somewhere, the bike goes.

in terms of technique, weighting the front end definitely works, and i really like that post about pushing the inside bar with an open palm; that's how it all works. there's also counterweighting with your body, where you push the bike over but keep your hips and shoulders more perpendicular in their force application to the road. it's like kayaking. press down from above with shifted hips and shoulders, let the bike take the angle, then you're pressing even more into the road rather than across the road at a dangerous slippage angle.

and, of course, i am no expert. i go down as fast as i possibly can, but i still can't keep up with my brother. and that cippo as bond video gave me goosebumps...

[Hindmost]

Some good reading:

http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

[Dave]

Doesn't sound the same to me. What you describe doesn't sound like countersteering. At least not how it's normally applied to bicycles. Sounds more like what wikipedia calls steer torque which they describe as a steady force on the bars used to hold a radius. Countersteering is a momentary input to initiate proper lean angle. Are they wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Steering torque and angle are both part of countersteering, the way I read it. If you're not applying any force or angle to the wheel, then you're not countersteering. Afterall, what is countersteering, but applying a force that creates a wheel angle?

All I've said is that if you quit applying any force, then the bike will straighten up by itself, due to increasing speed after a turn.

There's a lot said about countersteering at a "constant speed", but holding a truly constant speed on a bike or motorcycle is nearly impossible. Particularly on a motorcycle, if you don't keep pushing the bars with a substantial force, it won't keep turning, IME. My motorcycle instructor emphasized pushing with the right hand to turn right and pushing with the left to turn left. Worked for me. There was never a need to do any pulling or pushing to straighten the motorcycle after a turn, just quit pushing.

[etu]

thanks for all your input

i can't blame the bike or the fit. i've had a professional fitting and ride well designed bikes from Strong and Alliance. i've also had a session with a professional coach who showed me that i, like most poor descenders, start into the turn way too early. so my lines are a lot better now. most of my problem is mostly lack of confidence.

one my friends followed me on a descent commented how kept getting off the saddle and scooting back before each turn - slowing down, getting scared, making the front traction even more vague.

[John H.]

No need to take risks- just work on increasing skills and comfort.
We ride with a guy like you- one day we were riding behind him so we could watch what he does and help him with his descending. Every corner he would get his butt off the saddle and move back- Sounds like same thing you are doing.

[ultraman6970]

Dunno if anybody said this but many riders when going downhill or even in curvy roads they steer the bike instead of using the hips and shift weight to make the bike to take the curb or even turn. Many people cant just figure it out a thing as simple as that.

[etu]

Dunno if anybody said this but many riders when going downhill or even in curvy roads they steer the bike instead of using the hips and shift weight to make the bike to take the curb or even turn. Many people cant just figure it out a thing as simple as that.

it's not as a simple as knowing the correct technique, although it certainly helps. i think there is an element that involves a more primitive part of the brain...

learning to descend better was this year's project for me and i am happy to say, i am faster and more comfortable, but still below average.

i am not done or satisfied. after 20 years riding in a mountainous region (SF Bay Area) and really loving big climbs, i am finally beginning to view descending not a chore, but fun. the act of letting go, getting in the flow and exploring the limits of ones comfort zone is pretty cool.

bicycling is awesome.:banana:

[carpediemracing]

one my friends followed me on a descent commented how kept getting off the saddle and scooting back before each turn - slowing down, getting scared, making the front traction even more vague.

This year, trying to help some newer racers, I realized that a lot of riders basically unweight the saddle for whatever reason. What happens is that you lose control over what the "top" of the bike does, i.e. the saddle part. If you hit a slight bump while leaned over the bike will tilt more than if you were planted on the saddle. This results in some unwanted/unexpected movement and compromises control.

In extreme situations I've seen a rider totally off their saddle hit a big bump and lose control. I've also watched a rider try to bunny hop a bump in a turn and crash because the bike got squirrely when it came back down (he was still off the saddle, as he should be in a bunny hop, and the bike tried to highside him).

Although I emphasize the importance of front weight and good lines, it's also critical to make sure you have some control over what the saddle does. It's the end of a long lever and you can either hold it (by sitting on it) or let it swing around (by not sitting or otherwise "holding" it).

[rustychisel]

Although I emphasize the importance of front weight and good lines, it's also critical to make sure you have some control over what the saddle does. It's the end of a long lever and you can either hold it (by sitting on it) or let it swing around (by not sitting or otherwise "holding" it).

There's quite a bit of truth in this. Using the legs as primary shock absorbers does not mean getting right off the saddle, the thighs are used a lot to guide the bike from side to side and hold firm. As to forward weight, no, not really. On a steep descent you'll have plenty of weight on the front wheel anyway and most riders will scoot back on the saddle to get better balance, good balance being key.

When it comes to countersteering, understeer, blah blah there's a lot of theory and precious little practise. Wanna go fast downhill, practise riding downhill. Practise until you're smooth, practise until you loose the fear, practise until you use the drops automatically (which, if they're correctly positioned, will have the right amount of weight on the front of the bike).

[bcm119]

...
When it comes to countersteering, understeer, blah blah there's a lot of theory and precious little practise. Wanna go fast downhill, practise riding downhill. ...

^this

[Vientomas]

"The biggest mistake people make descending: They wait until they're in the middle of a turn to brake. Instead, scrub speed before the turn. If you have to brake in the turn, you didn't slow enough to begin with. Then, push your outside pedal down (right turn, left foot down) with pressure on that foot. To initiate the turn, lean the bike--not your body--into the turn (right turn, lean bike right). The faster and sharper the turn, the more you'll lean the bike. This action is similar to downhill skiing: The lower body angulates into the turn while the upper body remains upright. To exit the turn, gently straighten the bike."

From: http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/cycling-tips-descending-hills

If you are a proficient skier you will understand the concept of weighting the downhill (outside) foot and angulating the hips and lower body into the turn. I have found that by consciously weighting the outside pedal in the 6:00 o'clock position, my weight is distributed to both wheels for the best traction

This video of Cancellera demonstrates the technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA

[tannhauser]

It's all feel.

[monkeybanana86]

I think it's a combination of both reading about it and practicing.

I actually used the search function here a lot at the beginning of the year when I fist joined to look for tips. And after reading about countersteering and watching videos on YouTube both helped make descending more fun. I guess it helped me visualize leaning differently.

What worked for me was to find one good hill to repeat so that I'd know where to stick out my neck and look out for cars or bad road and do it over and over. It also helped because I'd remember where I was in the lane when entering each specific turn the last time and whether that worked or not at the speed I was trying to maintain.

As far as weight distribution I agree with the feel part. I've found that my butt is hovering over the saddle the whole time or gently sitting down and it moves differently around each turn so I agree with the feel part above

[monkeybanana86]

"...
This video of Cancellera demonstrates the technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA

I've watched this so many times. Here goes another viewing :)

[rustychisel]

it's instructive for good and bad points, and that's because he's not a natural descender (like Salvodelli, for example). He's pretty smooth, but you can see at least two corners where he's going in hot (all other traffic on the road notwithstanding) and twitches the bike offline. If he didn't have great skills and wasn't well planted that might have put him into the rock wall.

He also moves back and forth on the saddle, and leads into sharper corners with a dropped shoulder, pulls CG down into the corner, weights the front, allows good bite; rather than sit back and lean the bike through a faster sweeping corner. You can also see when heavy braking is required he sits up to use all his visual acuity in picking braking point and the layout of the corner, including apex.

Another note: when people say 'don't brake in a corner, brake before' there are a couple of factors at play. Too heavy braking with lean; scrub the tyres and slide out. Much more common: with some lean the tendency of the bike is to 'stand up' under moderate braking, ie throw you off your chosen line and run straight.

[Tandem Rider]

Also note that on sharper corners he is driving the inside handlebar down, and the bike is leaning farther than he is. His rear is still in contact with the seat, most of his weight is on the outside leg. Hands are on the drops. He is able to shift his line several times because raising the inside bar causes the bike to turn less, pushing the bar back down gets him around the cars in a turn. He gets his braking done before the turn and Rusty explained why.

This is only the mechanics of why he is going fast downhill (gravity aside). He also practices. A lot. We all get better at what we practice. Go practice. If you are doing hill repeats, bomb the descents (after recovering enough to think clearly). Same number of miles, more benefit, you get the idea.

[Dave]

My last comment about sucessfull cornering, concerns the outside foot. Although you want it down and the inside foot up, so there's no contact with the pavement, it's not necessary to weight that outer foot. I've had no problem getting enough weight on the front wheel, while keeping my weight on the saddle and I have my saddle pretty far back. I have checked my front to rear weight balance in the descending position and have about 45% on the front. Maintaining a low torso angle adds weight to the front.

I've also never relied on body english to steer the bike either, other than leaning with it. Countersteering is what leans the bike.

[MadRocketSci]

Some thoughts...

Weight does not shift to your front wheel when you are pointed down hill. I posted a high school level physics-based analysis of this a while back.

I don't really agree about having weight on the seat...if your weight is mainly on your outside foot with the crank parallel to the seat tube, as it normally would be, your weight distribution will be around 45-55 front/back split if your front-center and chainstay lengths are appropriate. Again a high-school level physics analysis will show this.

Braking of course increases weight on the front wheel.

The best thing to deal with fear/nervousness is to look up and further down the road, perhaps beyond the curve you are currently entering. Your sense of speed will be reduced as thing won't seem to whiz by as fast. This also helps in preparing early for turns.

Braking in a turn is ok, in my experience. This is called trail braking.

Being a downhill skier helps.

And it all depends on the types of descent. The descents in the bay area are very twisty, with many of the tight turns linked so that it's really not feasible to let go of your brakes in the turn. Body/hip position and all that stuff that a slalom skier would do really helps. Now i'm in colorado and I haven't really found a descent that is a combination of steepness and twistiness that requires all that...Flagstaff Rd. is probably the closest....so, it the level of technique you need to apply (and that people will be debating over) all depends on the particular descents you're doing.

[Dave]

Weight balance can change substantially, depending on the rider's fore/aft saddle position, torso angle and torso length. These days, you don't get a lot of choice with regard to chainstay length. Most brands use the same length, or close to it, for all sizes. Something around 405mm is quite popular.

Trail braking is applying only the rear brake.

[MadRocketSci]

the main point i'm trying to make is, regardless of your own body dimensions, where your saddle is, etc, if your weight is mostly on the outside pedal, (ie, your saddle is not bearing any weight) the front/back wheel distribution will be around 45/55...it can be shown by drawing a free body diagram for the bike, assuming approximately a 59-60 cm front center, 40-41 chainstay length, and your foot being around 5cm (= 170mm (cranklength) * cos(73deg, a typical seat tube angle)) in front of the bottom bracket. You can pretty much see those numbers working out without doing the math...

so in practical terms...if that weight distribution is good for descending, then get weight off saddle and onto your outside foot...

I found the term trail braking on this forum but at least in the case of motorcycles, according to wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius. If the motorcycle is leaned over, forces from the front brake and the deceleration causes the motorcycle to yaw (lean), while use of the rear brake generates a torque that tends to align (straighten) and stabilize the motorcycle