The World According to Lance

[ultraman6970]

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/10/11/3608613.htm

[fiamme red]

"Hello, Stephanie."
"Yeah?"
"This is Greg LeMond calling."
"Greg Le...Who?"

:D

[ultraman6970]

Anybody saw phill's parts??

[fiamme red]

Anybody saw phill's parts??"What do I think? Everybody else did it, so I find it very difficult not to think that Lance did it."

[PQJ]

"What do I think? Everybody else did it, so I find it very difficult not to think that Lance did it."

Don't know when this interview was taped but he appears to have overcome the difficulty quite easily.

[bocarider]

At around 21:00 min in Phil Liggett makes a remarkable concession.

Very good piece overall.

[fiamme red]

I didn't realize that Tyler is married again. His wife appears around 41:50.

[phcollard]

Thanks for posting! I actually watched the whole thing. I feel even more insulted now. What a liar. And I like Hamilton a bit more. Oh and UCI sucks :D

[rustychisel]

Yeah, watched it the other night. It's an excellent piece with good investigation.

[rustychisel]

Stephen Hodge (former tour rider) goes down, resigns position on Cycling Australia board.

Open letter from Skins Chairman to UCI

skins website at http://www.skins.net/open-letter-to-uci-president.pdf

[maxdog]

The body language of Lance vs Tyler tells it all.

[ultraman6970]

Interesting letter.

[laupsi]

the body language of lance vs tyler tells it all.

+1

[echelon_john]

That's a very well done piece. Hadn't seen the testimony footage before.

[malcolm]

The things that stood out to me was the difference in demeanor of Betsy, Emma and Tyler. They all sat fairly still and looked right at the camera or at least straight ahead. Lance was moving all around and slouching, eyes all over the room. Probably doesn't mean anything but it was very apparent.

Another thing that struck me was some of the things he said and I know it's petty but to say "old lady" and "pissed in a cup" at a deposition just seems uncouth and I would have expected him to have been better coached.

Just one other thought not really related to the interview but the early testing for epo and something I've been aware of for ever. the use of 50 as a cut off for hematocrit, that is very generous. I've looked at a ton of CBCs over the years and a hct of 50 in a healthy person, not a heavy smoker or in some other way chronically hypoxic is very uncommon. I guess they had to make it broad to give room for the uncommon outlyier. I just don't recall seeing a 50 that I couldn't explain as chronic low level hypoxia or some other abnormality.

[bikerboy337]

good stuff... i especially like the last quote by lance in his 2005 deposition about how he would never dope as he would lose the faith of the millions of cancer survivors and thats teh most important thing to him...

wow.... really, really reallly dislike him...

[fiamme red]

It will be airing on CNN tomorrow: http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/24/the-world-according-to-lance-armstrong-to-air-on-cnn-saturday-in-primetime/

[jimcav]

. I've looked at a ton of CBCs over the years and a hct of 50 in a healthy person, not a heavy smoker or in some other way chronically hypoxic is very uncommon. I guess they had to make it broad to give room for the uncommon outlyier. I just don't recall seeing a 50 that I couldn't explain as chronic low level hypoxia or some other abnormality.

i saw 2-3 in the past 6 years. Last one was a firefighter, who had minor elevated cholesterol and was asking me about taking up an aerobic fitness program to lose weight (I had my bike in the office). i gave him my usual advice and added I hoped i never saw him at the start line of any cycling event i did.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and it was very well researched, organized, and reported. I just didn't see any indications they were consciously trying to do a hatchet job--and I've seen some of these "60 Minutes" type pieces that were just that.

It's also nice to see that Tyler is remarried and I wish him the best. He came across as much more comfortable in front of the camera than he did in older things I've seen of him.

So is Lance just a real good con man and liar, or is he truly a sociopath who simply does not understand the difference between right and wrong? I think it's becoming a more appropriate question all the time.

BBD

[rustychisel]

BBD, '4 Corners' is produced by our national broadcaster and specialises in digging out unpalatable truths, telling the whole story, looking behind the politics of a situation, etc.

The standard of investigation and work is very very high indeed; it's reputation near-unimpeachable. I'm fairly confident in saying they DO NOT do hatchet jobs.

Likewise, there was footage I've not seen aired before and it tells quite a tale.

Re: Tyler. Am I the only person who still finds him unlikeable and untrustworthy?

[Tony T]

Re: Tyler. Am I the only person who still finds him unlikeable and untrustworthy?

You are not alone.......
....at least he's not as unlikable and untrustworthy as Floyd ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but he has been through a lot and hopefully learned a lot and I wish him well in putting those lessons into practice.

BBD

[spierfalls]

. . . but he has been through a lot and hopefully learned a lot and I wish him well in putting those lessons into practice.

BBD

Please Dave. Tyler is a former doper who got caught. He then tried convincing us of his innocence and repeatedly lied, just like Floyd. Then when his career went down the toilet completely he stirred it all up again with the 60 minutes piece. What has Tyler been thru? He has been through everything that a lying, rat, doper, brought on by his own actions could go through.
I'm all for cleaning up cycling and there is no excuse for any of this but please don't make Tyler out to be a poor guy that was force fed drugs by Lance and the gang.

[esldude]

Reading Tyler's account I had this idea. Seeing him in this program only reinforces it. He seems a weak personality. A weak person. An example that the physical ability to suffer more than most on a bike doesn't preclude a lack of wherewithal in other areas.

I don't think he is lying though I don't think he is so innocent and caught up as he appears to make himself look now. I do think he was put into a position as a very young man where he was easily convinced to take the route he did. Even fits I suppose with the split up in his parents marriage and his bouncing around between Asia and England.

Lance on the other hand still seems a strong person. Seems all the attributes we admire in someone with his accomplishments almost is part and parcel of those we don't like. The situation goes beyond him and all the other parties involved should share responsibility. I think perhaps he is being vilified a bit more than he deserves as he couldn't have done all this without the others involved allowing it to happen.

Not an original idea, but this is really a terrible mess for everyone.

[Ray]

Please Dave. Tyler is a former doper who got caught. He then tried convincing us of his innocence and repeatedly lied, just like Floyd. Then when his career went down the toilet completely he stirred it all up again with the 60 minutes piece. What has Tyler been thru? He has been through everything that a lying, rat, doper, brought on by his own actions could go through.
I'm all for cleaning up cycling and there is no excuse for any of this but please don't make Tyler out to be a poor guy that was force fed drugs by Lance and the gang.

I don't think he or Floyd ever claimed that. They both found themselves in a position to decide to dope or go home. Most of the pro peloton found themselves in that situation. The guys who decided to go home we've mostly never heard of. A lot of guys got caught and never came clean, hoping for the mercy of the powers that be under the system of Omertà. Lance had become part of the "powers that be", a big part, but never showed any mercy it seems. So the guys who'd worked for him realized it was their best bet to just rat him out rather than hope for his mercy. They didn't make that calculation initially, but Floyd and Tyler got there finally and others decided it was better to come clean than to lie to a grand jury and risk jail. I don't think these guys are terribly heroic but I don't think they're scum either. They made the best deals for themselves they could after finding themselves in untenable situations.

Why did the system finally collapse around Lance after holding up for years and decades under other people's rule? It would seem like its because he was a much bigger prick than those who'd come before him, he treated his people like dirt, showed no loyalty, and finally got treated the same in return.

So no heroes or villains, but I know I'd sleep better at night and look better to myself in the mirror if I was Floyd or Tyler than if I was Lance. But Lance isn't built like other people, which accounts for both his best qualities, and worst.

-Ray

[slidey]

As regards Tyler, there's something to be said about having the courage to stand up and reveal the truth to the world, knowing fully well that he'd be relinquishing his Olympic Gold medal in the process. You're right...they all made personal choices, but they were all forced into a corner and they felt that doping was the only option they had. I think it's plenty clear by now that the people who were putting the pressure on super-domestiques to dope were the team mgmt, team doctors, and team leaders (LA). Therein lies the difference between Dopestrong and the rest...to this day Dopehead remains a professional cheat, and the others aren't.

Please Dave. Tyler is a former doper who got caught. He then tried convincing us of his innocence and repeatedly lied, just like Floyd. Then when his career went down the toilet completely he stirred it all up again with the 60 minutes piece. What has Tyler been thru? He has been through everything that a lying, rat, doper, brought on by his own actions could go through.
I'm all for cleaning up cycling and there is no excuse for any of this but please don't make Tyler out to be a poor guy that was force fed drugs by Lance and the gang.

[Rueda Tropical]

Lance on the other hand still seems a strong person. Seems all the attributes we admire in someone with his accomplishments almost is part and parcel of those we don't like. The situation goes beyond him and all the other parties involved should share responsibility. I think perhaps he is being vilified a bit more than he deserves as he couldn't have done all this without the others involved allowing it to happen.

Not an original idea, but this is really a terrible mess for everyone.

Depends on what you consider "strong". If socio-paths and bullies that will lie, cheat and do anything to get what they want and intimidate anyone who gets in the way are strong. Then yes Lance fits the bill. So do dictators, corrupt politicians, Mafia bosses, etc.,

What was the part we were supposed to admire?

There is a difference with a drive to compete, excel and win by being the absolute best and a drive to get whatever you want by any means necessary including cheating, fraud and stealing. I know people in business who are incredibly driven to succeed and to win, that would never consider committing fraud or engage in illegal, unethical socio-pathic behavior. They are "strong" - not just in drive to succeed but in character.

There are a 2 basic differences between Floyd / Tyler and Lance.

1. Lance is still Lying. Floyd and Tyler became part of the solution and Lance is still part of the problem. While they lent there testimony to an investigation to clean up the sport Lance spends millions trying to keep it corrupt.

2. Floyd and Tyler were cogs in the machine. Lance was a boss. That makes them all complicit but the guy with the power has more responsibility in that scenario.

None of these guys would have come forward if they didn't have to. They cheated rather then doing what was right. But I'll applaud anyone who does the right thing for the sport now. I hope every doper including Armstrong steps forward and spills their guts and implicates everyone they ever conspired with. I don't care why they doped or why they finally told the truth so long as they come forward and do their part in making right what they screwed up.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Please Dave. Tyler is a former doper who got caught. He then tried convincing us of his innocence and repeatedly lied, just like Floyd. Then when his career went down the toilet completely he stirred it all up again with the 60 minutes piece. What has Tyler been thru? He has been through everything that a lying, rat, doper, brought on by his own actions could go through.
I'm all for cleaning up cycling and there is no excuse for any of this but please don't make Tyler out to be a poor guy that was force fed drugs by Lance and the gang.

. . . you're reading things into my statement that are just not there. I hope he's learned from his life lessons and will take them to heart and good luck to him. I wish the same thing to just about everybody in all this--even Lance to a degree, though I think it's extremely doubtful at this point he will do that.

I think esldude may be right and Tyler is not a particularly strong personality. But at this point it's pretty much moot. Good luck to them all.

BBD

[rustychisel]

1. Lance is still Lying. Floyd and Tyler became part of the solution and Lance is still part of the problem. While they lent there testimony to an investigation to clean up the sport Lance spends millions trying to keep it corrupt.

See, I have trouble getting my head around this. Tyler lied, then he didn't, then he did, then he didn't (because he was compelled). Now apparently he's telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not so sure, I have a nagging doubt/feeling that Tyler has more to tell.

2. Floyd and Tyler were cogs in the machine. Lance was a boss. That makes them all complicit but the guy with the power has more responsibility in that scenario.

0kay, err, to a point, but it didn't work for Irma Griese. There, you made me invoke Godwin's Law on a silly little aside.

None of these guys would have come forward if they didn't have to. They cheated rather then doing what was right. But I'll applaud anyone who does the right thing for the sport now. I hope every doper including Armstrong steps forward and spills their guts and implicates everyone they ever conspired with. I don't care why they doped or why they finally told the truth so long as they come forward and do their part in making right what they screwed up.

Errr, okay, you're sort of proposing a general amnesty, if I read you correctly, which means those who have come forward in the last weeks aren't covered, unless you propose a retrospective amnesty.

In any event, your proposal is that systematic liars and cheats who wait for a favourable time to unmask themselves, and fearing that it's only a matter of time before they are revealed by someone else, should come forward under a less putative regime of doping control of sanction, because we can take their word that there'll be no more of that silliness, and they wouldn't dream of doing it again, or assisting in doping practises.

I mean, it's not like they're experienced liars or anything, is it? (sarcasm meter boinging off the scale). Anyway, like I said, it was a silly aside.

[Rueda Tropical]

See, I have trouble getting my head around this. Tyler lied, then he didn't, then he did, then he didn't (because he was compelled). Now apparently he's telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not so sure, I have a nagging doubt/feeling that Tyler has more to tell.

Tylers story is consistent with a dozen others testimony. All the essential, important details of the who, when and how have been told and corroborated multiple times. Lance is still lying.


0kay, err, to a point, but it didn't work for Irma Griese. There, you made me invoke Godwin's Law on a silly little aside.

We are talking about cheating, not torture, genocide and murder. If you are a serial killer, even if you are not the boss, you get punished accordingly.



Errr, okay, you're sort of proposing a general amnesty, if I read you correctly, which means those who have come forward in the last weeks aren't covered, unless you propose a retrospective amnesty.


I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not proposing anything. Providing testimony that aids an investigation is a prerequisite to a successful investigation. If no one talks. If the Omerta rules, then nothing changes. Nothing to do with what the sanctions should be or if amnesty is a good idea or not. The more that testify the better for the sport.

When cheats and liars testify you make sure you get corroborating testimony and evidence. Tygart has done this in spades.


In any event, your proposal is that systematic liars and cheats who wait for a favourable time to unmask themselves, and fearing that it's only a matter of time before they are revealed by someone else, should come forward under a less putative regime of doping control of sanction, because we can take their word that there'll be no more of that silliness, and they wouldn't dream of doing it again, or assisting in doping practises.

I mean, it's not like they're experienced liars or anything, is it? (sarcasm meter boinging off the scale). Anyway, like I said, it was a silly aside.

It has nothing to do with taking their word for anything. Investigators need to know what they know and any testimony has to be vetted and corroborated.

What they would dream of doing or not doing isn't the issue. It's obvious that they would cheat if they thought they could get away with it as they already have cheated. Would they dope again after having been sanctioned? If they do, then we hope the procedures have been updated with the knowledge gained from the testimony and investigations so that they would not have a prayer of getting away with it.

[thinpin]

So no heroes or villains, but I know I'd sleep better at night and look better to myself in the mirror if I was Floyd or Tyler than if I was Lance. But Lance isn't built like other people, which accounts for both his best qualities, and worst.

This resonates for me. Except that what are considered his best qualities are perhaps his worst. They cannot be separated.