Longer vs. Lower 2

[Dr. Doofus]

Early fall, time to tinker with position

I, Doofus Who Am, well, we are finding that despite our flexibility and core strength, long and low just does not work and rolls us onto our soft tissue, which is not a good thing....

this season the bike was set up low -- a 120 stem and 92mm of drop, 7 cm saddle setback. kind of scrunched up.

putting a 130 stem on didn't work -- the reach was just too long -- but the bike handled sooo much better

to keep the 130 on but have the 56 cm from saddle tip to bar center my body seems to be happy with, the bars had to move up and the saddle had to come forward -- 85mm of drop, and 6cm of saddle setback*. Now, E-Ritchie would tell you that 6cm of setback is pushing the short side for a seat height of 79cm...on the other hand, the trusty Competitive Cyclist Fit Calculator (free, and worth every penny) has your Doofus, I Who Am He, at 6-6.5cm of setback...which perhaps means nothing.

Doofus puts out the same amount of power in the two positions...its a choice between a higher front end (and more drag) but better handling, or a lower front end and less weight on the front wheel.

I, Doofus Who is He, will try the "higher and longer" for a while, 130 and only 8-8.5cm of drop, working with the assumption that you can always sit on a wheel to get draft, but its hard to do anything with technique to make the thing corner better if you don't have enough weight over the front wheel.

Of course, Doof will do what the body says to do -- if it hurts, it don't fit --

but just for another academic discussion...longer, or lower?


* for you KOPS cops: 7cm of setback has doof 2.5cm behind the spindle on his long thigh and 3.5cm behind on his short one...so only 6cm of setback still has him at 1.5 and 2.5 *behind*, respectively


Bostondrunk, we babble just for *you*

smootchie.

[Climb01742]

someone who should know told me an interesting take on being aero...width plays a great role in aero drag than does height. think of all the frontal mass your body projects. how much more will be added by 7mm less drop? precious little i'd guess. additionally, if having your bars a bit higher is more comfortable, you'll stay longer and flatter more. additionally to the additionally :p you may also actually truly flatten your back some, offering less hump to the wind. it is a bit eye-opening to think of drag as being far more about width than height, least it was for me. raise those bars good doof!

[Fixed]

bro I know you know this but here goes find a position on the bike that doesn't hurt you can always put more weight on the front by use'n your arms and elbows (take a read of Phinney's book) but I bet you know this it's the way all crit racers get weight on the front of a bike when cornering. bro an ol dog like you knows all these tricks. cheers :beer:

[Dave]

I really can't imagine what can be done with the arms and elbows to put weight on the front of a bike.

Moving the saddle or your butt forward will add weight to the front.

Leaning over more (reducing the toso angle) will put more weight on the front.

If you're riding in the typical aggressive cornering/descending position (the only time that weight balance is all that critical) then your hands are in the drops, your fingers are in reach of the brake levers and the upper back is horizontal or lower. At this point, the arms and elbows don't have any options that I can see.

If you don't believe this put yur bike on a trainer with a scale under the front wheel and watch the weight increase as the torso is lowered. Also try moving just your hands forward (like a longer stem would do) without moving the torso. You won't see any significant change in the front end weight.

Higher and longer makes pefect sense, but if the saddle was moved forward by the same amount as the stem length change, then the end result was actually shorter (reach) and higher, since adding spacers under the stem also moves it slightly closer to the rider. In this case, 7mm of spacer brings the stem about 2mm closer.

In the end it sounds like you accomplished what you wanted, a bit higher torso position, probably without reducing (maybe even some increase) in the weight on the front end.

[Dr. Doofus]

I really can't imagine what can be done with the arms and elbows to put weight on the front of a bike.
.


you push down like crap on the inside drop and counter weight the outside pedal -- it may not be getting more weight on the wheel, but it sure does make the thnig bite the turn harder

[Fixed]

you push down like crap on the inside drop and counter weight the outside pedal -- it may not be getting more weight on the wheel, but it sure does make the thnig bite the turn harderbro bingo.cheers :beer:

[93legendti]

Early fall, time to tinker with position

I, Doofus Who Am, well, we are finding that despite our flexibility and core strength, long and low just does not work and rolls us onto our soft tissue, which is not a good thing....

this season the bike was set up low -- a 120 stem and 92mm of drop, 7 cm saddle setback. kind of scrunched up.

putting a 130 stem on didn't work -- the reach was just too long -- but the bike handled sooo much better

to keep the 130 on but have the 56 cm from saddle tip to bar center my body seems to be happy with, the bars had to move up and the saddle had to come forward -- 85mm of drop, and 6cm of saddle setback*. Now, E-Ritchie would tell you that 6cm of setback is pushing the short side for a seat height of 79cm...on the other hand, the trusty Competitive Cyclist Fit Calculator (free, and worth every penny) has your Doofus, I Who Am He, at 6-6.5cm of setback...which perhaps means nothing.

Doofus puts out the same amount of power in the two positions...its a choice between a higher front end (and more drag) but better handling, or a lower front end and less weight on the front wheel.

I, Doofus Who is He, will try the "higher and longer" for a while, 130 and only 8-8.5cm of drop, working with the assumption that you can always sit on a wheel to get draft, but its hard to do anything with technique to make the thing corner better if you don't have enough weight over the front wheel.

Of course, Doof will do what the body says to do -- if it hurts, it don't fit --

but just for another academic discussion...longer, or lower?


* for you KOPS cops: 7cm of setback has doof 2.5cm behind the spindle on his long thigh and 3.5cm behind on his short one...so only 6cm of setback still has him at 1.5 and 2.5 *behind*, respectively


Bostondrunk, we babble just for *you*

smootchie.

Have you thought about a custom stem in a 125 length? Seems like the easiest solution if 120 is too short and 130 is too long. That way you could keep your old setback. Someone probably even makes them in 125...maybe Salsa?

[Climb01742]

a deda 120 is actually 125. at least the ones i have are.

[Dave]

you push down like crap on the inside drop and counter weight the outside pedal -- it may not be getting more weight on the wheel, but it sure does make the thnig bite the turn harder


To make a bike turn, it has to lean. The first thing you learn in a motorcycle training course is that a motorcycle (like a bicycle) won't turn right if you try to turn the handlebars to the right, except at very low speeds. Once much speed is developed, you push on the right side (like trying to turn left), the bike will lean to the right and turn to the right. If you're turning too wide, you push harder, causing more lean and tighter turn. Wrecks happen when a rider who's turning too wide panics and quits pushing. You'll end up in the oncoming lane pretty quick.