Anyone seen Paul Taylor lately?

[PoppaWheelie]

We all know the dramas...no need to re-hash...I'm just wondering if anyone has had ANY contact with Paul in the last six months? Continuing to have no luck getting anywhere in my end...feel free to PM me with any news. Really not trying to stir the pot...just fishing for leads.

Thx

(thread locking in three...two...one....)

[Ken Robb]

does he have some of your $$$?

[cnighbor1]

We all know the dramas...no need to re-hash...I'm just wondering if anyone has had ANY contact with Paul in the last six months? Continuing to have no luck getting anywhere in my end...feel free to PM me with any news. Really not trying to stir the pot...just fishing for leads.

Thx

(thread locking in three...two...one....)

Yes I was emailing him in june with replys.I got a single speed road frame from him.

[MRB]

http://www.taylorbicycles.com/

Maybe he couldn't afford the hosting fees? The interest on the money we've sent him should be able to cover those.

[JLNK]

His website has been disabled.

[cnighbor1]

Yes on Halloween his ghost floated by front door
Charles
Try 406-209-1249

[Aaron O]

After the last Taylor thread I gave him a call to see if he was alive and/or taking orders. I'm not sure if he is building the bikes, but he's still taking new orders for them.

I would call a DA...I see it as mail fraud.

[CaliFly]

Is this the same dude on the 'book (http://www.facebook.com/taylorbicycles.pt)?

[Ahneida Ride]

After the last Taylor thread I gave him a call to see if he was alive and/or taking orders. I'm not sure if he is building the bikes, but he's still taking new orders for them.

I would call a DA...I see it as mail fraud.

Many Moons ago .... Pete posted a thread ...

[cnighbor1]

Sausilito bike store owner has spoken to Paul taylor in last few days has i just asked him. he carries taylor frames Fs
Charles

[TeamSwami.com]

Is this the same dude on the 'book (http://www.facebook.com/taylorbicycles.pt)?

That is the scammer himself :mad:

[MRB]

Paul is now doing the wet paint for Carl Strong's frames.

[fogrider]

I was in a local shop and they had 2 of his frames on hand...

[MRB]

Perhaps someone sent him a deposit on frame, not knowing this is what they really funded:

[Querying whois.melbourneit.com]
[whois.melbourneit.com]

Domain Name.......... taylorbicycles.com
Creation Date........ 2000-08-22
Registration Date.... 2000-08-22
Expiry Date.......... 2013-08-22
Organisation Name.... taylor bicycles
Organisation Address. PO Box 61359
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address. Sunnyvale
Organisation Address. 94088
Organisation Address. CA
Organisation Address. US

Admin Name........... Admin PrivateRegContact
Admin Address........ PO Box 61359
Admin Address........ registered post accepted only
Admin Address........
Admin Address. Sunnyvale
Admin Address........ 94088
Admin Address........ CA
Admin Address........ US
Admin Email.......... contact@myprivateregistration.com
Admin Phone.......... +1.5105952002
Admin Fax............

Tech Name............ TECH PrivateRegContact
Tech Address......... PO Box 61359
Tech Address......... registered post accepted only
Tech Address.........
Tech Address......... Sunnyvale
Tech Address......... 94088
Tech Address......... CA
Tech Address......... US
Tech Email........... contact@myprivateregistration.com
Tech Phone........... +1.5105952002
Tech Fax.............
Name Server.......... ns1.mdnsservice.com
Name Server.......... ns2.mdnsservice.com
Name Server.......... ns3.mdnsservice.comapproaching twenty.

[ctam]

He's alive and kicking. He took money from me in Feb 2010 and he fed me lies for about 12-18 months and then all communication stopped. Just for kicks I sent him an email last night after seeing this thread. He didn't reply until I sent a second email asking if I should perhaps contact him at Carl Strong's shop. That got his attention! This is the number he gave me 406 209 1249.

[Spin71]

He didn't reply until I sent a second email asking if I should perhaps contact him at Carl Strong's shop. That got his attention!

Well played...

[PoppaWheelie]

Three years of non-stop frustration...all for naught. Some weeks I probably call/text Paul once...some weeks I try every day. I figure that adds up to several hundred phone calls, emails and texts...most ignored. Every now and then I received a "I'll call you back later" or "driving...will be in touch". I also got a few promises of "your frame is done except for a bit of finish work", but I know he's used that line on a number of people. I know I just need to let it go, but I've had trouble doing so...until now. I'm done...I've officially been ripped off.

I've had things stolen from me a few times in the past, and it sucks enough to have it happen anonymously. To have a guy steal from you while looking you in the eye (metaphorically speaking, in a long-distance phone call kind of way) is just creepy. I've polled my lawyer buddies, I've called the court, I've called Carl...it's just not worth it anymore. My last ditch effort was an offer to buy myself out of his hair at a huge loss...but that too went ignored.

I do have to count myself lucky I only lost $600. I know there are some guys out there who are out a hell of lot more.

So anyway, I hereby purge myself of this karma stink-fest and resolve to move on.

[AngryScientist]

perhaps just giving up and walking away is the healthy thing to do, to avoid the added stress, but if you havent already, i would file a claim against him in small claims court before you walk away. keep all of those texts etc, and file a claim. even if he doesnt pay, they can put a lein on his property or whatever, and at least there will be a judgement against him. you deserve that much IMO.

[Aaron O]

I'd be calling people about mail fraud - especially if he did this to others.

That said, I also understand the motivation to be done.

[echelon_john]

A pair of pliers and a blowtorch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23EOVuhIhdg

[William]

Do you know anyone with a pig farm?;)



Sorry it has come to this. The majority of transactions go well, but it just takes one loser to ruin your day. If you have the wherewithal to file in small claims court do it. If it's better for you to just drop it and move on then do that. Enough has been posted on the internet that anyone doing a little research before buying will come across it and be warned.






William

[67-59]

Sorry to hear. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and let it go. Unfair, yes, but probably better for you in the long run than letting it continue to eat at you.

And I'll be the dissenter about small claims court. If you do that, somewhere in the back (or front) of your mind, it will still be an "open" issue. I'd only do the small claims thing if you still want to deal with it, and want to continue to try getting your money back. But IMHO that's very different from letting it go.

[FlashUNC]

This is a shame. I've heard of similar instances with comic artists and commissions for clients -- and that doesn't even have the built-in costs for running a welding shop for putting frames together.

FWIW, there are a number of truly awesome builders out there these days that will stick to deadlines, communicate freely and be generally awesome to deal with. Several of them post here.

Maybe make some lemonade out of lemons?

[rwsaunders]

$600 isn't chump change but people like this rationalize that you don't need it as much as they do. I'd file a lien on his property. Yeah it's a little more money out the door, but you make my life miserable, I'd be happy to reciprocate. Best of luck and thanks for keeping us posted.

[Aaron O]

I don't think small claims court is likely to be fruitful either - you can't get blood from a stone and judgments are often uncollected. There are rules about offering things nationally and never delivering them...I'd be following that route after contacting other burned parties.

Guy sounds like an arse...fortunately there are so many great frame builders.

[harlond]

perhaps just giving up and walking away is the healthy thing to do, to avoid the added stress, but if you havent already, i would file a claim against him in small claims court before you walk away. keep all of those texts etc, and file a claim. even if he doesnt pay, they can put a lein on his property or whatever, and at least there will be a judgement against him. you deserve that much IMO.You'll spend more money getting a judgment, and while your judgment will include your filing costs, you still have to collect the judgment, and if anybody else has one--seems likely in this case--you get in line with, maybe behind, them. And if you really want to recover on your judgment, you have to monitor his financial situation constantly. Now if you know he owns some real property that you can place a lien on, maybe it's different.

Say you eventually recover. How many dozens of hours will you have spent to get back your $600? That's just what your time is worth. Doesn't cover the emotional cost.

Some people can't feel right until they have a judgment, and if you're that kind, by all means get one. But if you're not that kind, getting and collecting a judgment that probably has no real value is just picking at the scab.

[Aaron O]

You'll spend more money getting a judgment, and while your judgment will include your filing costs, you still have to collect the judgment, and if anybody else has one--seems likely in this case--you get in line with, maybe behind, them. And if you really want to recover on your judgment, you have to monitor his financial situation constantly.

Say you eventually recover. How many dozens of hours will you have spent to get back your $600? That's just what your time is worth. Doesn't cover the emotional cost.

Some people can't feel right until they have a judgment, and if you're that kind, by all means get one. But if you're not that kind, getting and collecting a judgment that probably has no real value is just picking at the scab.

Huge +1...

On the other hand, it doesn't cost filing fees to call your attorney general or the federales. If he's burned multiple people, and never had any intention of making the frames or refunding money, I think it's a possible route. I know that I called him a while back, curious, and he was willing to take an order from me while this was going on.

[AngryScientist]

You'll spend more money getting a judgment, and while your judgment will include your filing costs, you still have to collect the judgment, and if anybody else has one--seems likely in this case--you get in line with, maybe behind, them. And if you really want to recover on your judgment, you have to monitor his financial situation constantly. Now if you know he owns some real property that you can place a lien on, maybe it's different.

Say you eventually recover. How many dozens of hours will you have spent to get back your $600? That's just what your time is worth. Doesn't cover the emotional cost.

Some people can't feel right until they have a judgment, and if you're that kind, by all means get one. But if you're not that kind, getting and collecting a judgment that probably has no real value is just picking at the scab.


good point IMO

[christian]

I wouldn't pursue a judgement. I'd get toghether with other fraud victims and pursue a criminal complaint.

[RudAwkning]

I just found out this past weekend that he's doing frames for a bike shop in Marin under the "Odyssey" brand.

http://www.bicycleodyssey.com/

They had 2 of his frames at the shop, on display. So he >is< building.

[MattTuck]

I wouldn't pursue a judgement. I'd get toghether with other fraud victims and grab our pitchforks and torches.

I fixed it for you.

http://blogs.agu.org/martianchronicles/files/2012/02/Angry-Mob-Playset_2479-l.jpg

[Anarchist]

I was surprised reading this to see that he is working for Carl Strong. While his work may be good I am surprised hat Carl Strong wants to rent any piece of this sordid tale.

[bobswire]

Awhile back I felt for him knowing my own lack of business sense but I would have thought he would have made good with folks by now.
I was a very good carpenter but a very bad business contractor. The good thing about it was the only who got screwed when I had my own business was me so I went back to working for other contractors doing what I loved while being able to pay my bills and enjoy life. I'm retired now, happy, healthy and content enjoying my passion playing with and riding bikes.
Hope Paul finds his way and makes good to those he took money from.
He does make a nice frame.

[texbike]

I just found out this past weekend that he's doing frames for a bike shop in Marin under the "Odyssey" brand.

http://www.bicycleodyssey.com/

They had 2 of his frames at the shop, on display. So he >is< building.

Those have been in Bicycle Odyssey for quite awhile...

Texbike

[christian]

I was surprised reading this to see that he is working for Carl Strong. While his work may be good I am surprised hat Carl Strong wants to rent any piece of this sordid tale.
EDITED in light of the fact that Carl has clarified he's no longer using Paul Taylor for paint.

[RudAwkning]

Those have been in Bicycle Odyssey for quite awhile...

Texbike

Ah. Didn't know. Hadn't been there in "quite awhile" :) (almost 2 years!)

[MattTuck]

I was surprised reading this to see that he is working for Carl Strong. While his work may be good I am surprised hat Carl Strong wants to rent any piece of this sordid tale.

I am also puzzled by this. Carl has a lot of credibility in the frame building community. Can't imagine having people calling his shop looking for Taylor is good for that credibility.

I count my lucky stars every time Taylor's name comes up. During his $1300 frame blow out, I was at a dinner and randomly got seated next to a guy from the bay area who had a Taylor and filled me in on some of the behind the scenes stuff. The cautionary tale was enough to switch me from 'about to pull the trigger' to, run away as fast as you can.

[texbike]

Ah. Didn't know. Hadn't been there in "quite awhile" :) (almost 2 years!)

I was thinking that the frames had been in there for at least 3 years, but I could be wrong. One of my top 10 favorite shops... I stop in every time I'm in Sausalito.

Texbike

[Joachim]

I have gone through similar experience (in terms of pursuing legal action etc) with another builder. Good thing that guy is not building anymore, but I ordered a Spectrum to "cleanse" the emotional impact it had. These types of builders will never change and they should be ostracized from the framebuilders community.

[Carl Strong]

Just for the record I'd like to let everyone know that while Paul did paint for me for a while we have since parted ways.

A little background. Paul moved to town he seemed like a good guy and he did really nice paint work. I started using him because he was fast, reasonably priced and did good work. I also was able to collaborate with him in a way that is much more difficult to do remotely.

Soon after starting to work with him I began getting phone calls from customers and others trying to locate or contact him. I never had any trouble contacting him and gave the contact info I had to all that called. I also passed on messages to Paul.

At the time he was married and claimed he needed to improve organization. He was starting to involve his wife in the business to operate the office. Loretta and I had them over on several occasions helping them develop systems and also giving them many of our own.

Shortly after, the two split and his new excuse was the divorce. At this point I knew he was incompetent but hadn't yet given up on him. He was making the majority of his income from me and I thought if I pulled the rug out, he'd stand no chance of meeting his obligations.

To make a short story long, he failed to do the very minimum to meet his commitments and I stopped using him. I told him that the difference between incompetence and fraud was communicating with his customers and I couldn't do business with him because of his unethical behavior.

I haven't talked to him since, but I still get calls from people looking for him. I couldn't get a hold of him if I wanted. He recently moved to a neighboring town but I'm not even sure if he's there anymore. He'd burned a lot of bridges in Bozeman.

[AngryScientist]

Just for the record I'd like to let everyone know that while Paul did paint for me for a while we have since parted ways.

A little background. Paul moved to town he seemed like a good guy and he did really nice paint work. I started using him because he was fast, reasonably priced and did good work. I also was able to collaborate with him in a way that is much more difficult to do remotely.

Soon after starting to work with him I began getting phone calls from customers and others trying to locate or contact him. I never had any trouble contacting him and gave the contact info I had to all that called. I also passed on messages to Paul.

At the time he was married and claimed he needed to improve organization. He was starting to involve his wife in the business to operate the office. Loretta and I had them over on several occasions helping them develop systems and also giving them many of our own.

Shortly after, the two split and his new excuse was the divorce. At this point I knew he was incompetent but hadn't yet given up on him. He was making the majority of his income from me and I thought if I pulled the rug out, he'd stand no chance of meeting his obligations.

To make a short story long, he failed to do the very minimum to meet his commitments and I stopped using him. I told him that the difference between incompetence and fraud was communicating with his customers and I couldn't do business with him because of his unethical behavior.

I haven't talked to him since, but I still get calls from people looking for him. I couldn't get a hold of him if I wanted. He recently moved to a neighboring town but I'm not even sure if he's there anymore. He'd burned a lot of bridges in Bozeman.

thanks for presenting the facts Carl.

Class act here folks.

[Birddog]

Surprises me too. Takes Carl right off the list of builders for me. I wouldn't need the "what ifs."
That to me is a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Carl is a standup guy. A couple years ago I had a discussion with Carl at the NAHB show and he was talking about the seminar that he gives for the builders. It had nothing to do with technology, brazing, bonding etc. His seminar was almost exclusively about how to run a responsible business and have a business plan, budgets etc. Perhaps while Paul was working with Carl some of that rubbed off on him.

Edit, I wrote this before Carl responded.

[cfox]

I am also puzzled by this. Carl has a lot of credibility in the frame building community. Can't imagine having people calling his shop looking for Taylor is good for that credibility.

I count my lucky stars every time Taylor's name comes up. During his $1300 frame blow out, I was at a dinner and randomly got seated next to a guy from the bay area who had a Taylor and filled me in on some of the behind the scenes stuff. The cautionary tale was enough to switch me from 'about to pull the trigger' to, run away as fast as you can.

BEWARE THE BLOWOUT!! in addition to Mexican food, this warning pertains to framebuilders. it never ends well. Maietta, Goodrich, and Taylor all did this and it wasn't pretty. It's basically a way to front-load deposits to pay current bills with the result being more orders that can be filled.

[Keith A]

thanks for presenting the facts carl.

Class act here folks.+1

[William]

Just for the record I'd like to let everyone know...


Thank you Carl!:cool:





William

[Climb01742]

Carl is a class act. When he built a frame for me, his communication and follow through were exemplary. He's a man of his word. I would not hesitate for a second working with Carl again. He shouldn't be tainted for trying to help someone.

[eddief]

So all this about Paul makes me wonder what number of those taken in by his too good to be true offering of a couple of years ago - how many paid and never got their bike?

I was a hare's breath away from forking over the deposit.

AND most of all it makes me wonder if the offering was a premeditated scheme on his part to get money fast and then run the hell away? Can we say pathological?

[JLNK]

It is unfortunate to hear of Paul Taylor's issues in his personal and professional life. As one of the individuals he took money from and then never provided a frame I gave up contacting him so it is helpful to have the info from Carl Strong.

[FlashUNC]

Seems like that should assuage any concerns about Mr. Strong.

[MattTuck]

Seems like that should assuage any concerns about Mr. Strong.

Agreed. He tried to do a mitzvah.

No good deed goes unpunished, as they say. It's a shame that Taylor didn't take it as a chance to rebuild his reputation.

[Aaron O]

I suspect he got in over his head and is overwhelmed. I doubt he set out to deceive, but, unfortunately, has clearly been deceptive. I think that a third party would likely consider this mail fraud based on the number of people with issues. There are also rules governing deposits as I recall...I think most states have rules that they have to be held in escrow (I could be mistaken).

[Ahneida Ride]

You'll spend more money getting a judgment, and while your judgment will include your filing costs, you still have to collect the judgment, and if anybody else has one--seems likely in this case--you get in line with, maybe behind, them. And if you really want to recover on your judgment, you have to monitor his financial situation constantly. Now if you know he owns some real property that you can place a lien on, maybe it's different.

Say you eventually recover. How many dozens of hours will you have spent to get back your $600? That's just what your time is worth. Doesn't cover the emotional cost.

Some people can't feel right until they have a judgment, and if you're that kind, by all means get one. But if you're not that kind, getting and collecting a judgment that probably has no real value is just picking at the scab.

“All it takes for evil to succeed is for a few good men to do nothing...”
― Edmund Burke


http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/17142.Edmund_Burke

[David Kirk]

So all this about Paul makes me wonder what number of those taken in by his too good to be true offering of a couple of years ago - how many paid and never got their bike?

I was a hare's breath away from forking over the deposit.

AND most of all it makes me wonder if the offering was a premeditated scheme on his part to get money fast and then run the hell away? Can we say pathological?

It's interesting. I have met Paul only once at a social engagement and he was really easy to talk to and presented himself very well. He made eye contact when we spoke and was charming in a way. I could see how people like him.

All the while when I was talking with him I had trouble reconciling all the reports I'd heard about him and how he conducts his business. Not that I doubted the reports I'd read and heard but that it seemed out of character when I was speaking with the man. I think this may be why so many went down this road with Paul. Someone sees his work online and gives him a call and he's cool to talk to and all seems good. It might be easy to think that the problem isn't with Paul but with the customer instead and since he seems so cool and put together they give him some money. His natural charm is effective.

I can't get in his or anyone else's head and know what their thoughts and intentions are so certainly have no way of telling if his intention is to take money and not deliver or if it just ends up working out that way all too often. But the simple fact of the matter is that many folks have gone down this path with Paul and had an unhappy ending.

The real shame of it is of course twofold IMO - first is the obvious.........that people give their money and trust to a person and have that repaid with lies and deceit. This sucks. What also sucks is that some swear off having anyone ever build them a bike because they somehow assume we builders are all cut from the same cloth. It's just not true of course but I can understand how folks out there could get that feeling. This makes it personal for builders like me and so many others that strive for top shelf customer service and product.

I hope not too many here want to swear off having a bike built just for them by a reputable builder based on others experiences with Paul. I think this kind of thing is a reminder that there are those out there that are much less than professional and that doing a bit of homework ahead of time is a very good idea. Google the builder by name and by the company name and see what you get. If you see bad stuff and multiple reports of wrong doping please do not discount them. Also - if the price seems to be too good to be true it probably is.

I really do feel awful for the people that have placed their trust in a builder only to be ripped off. It's not supposed to go that way. You guys truly got the ***** end of the stick. There are many reputable builders out there that will give you good customer service and a very good value for your money - please give the good guys your business and know that all builders are not the same.

Thanks for reading.

dave

[eddief]

I am not so jaded that I can't feel some feelings about what it must be like to be in Paul's shoes now. Many factors have brought the story to this point and it must be something of a living hell to be him. OJ got away with it for quite some time before doing some other dumb stuff in Las Vegas with petty criminals. Now he watches it all from a prison cell...finally.

Alas, god and justice move in mysterious ways:

"A Nevada judge agreed on October 19, 2012 to "reopen the armed robbery and kidnapping case against O.J. Simpson to determine if the former football star was so badly represented by his lawyers that he should be freed from prison and get another trial."


It's interesting. I have met Paul only once at a social engagement and he was really easy to talk to and presented himself very well. He made eye contact when we spoke and was charming in a way. I could see how people like him.

All the while when I was talking with him I had trouble reconciling all the reports I'd heard about him and how he conducts his business. Not that I doubted the reports I'd read and heard but that it seemed out of character when I was speaking with the man. I think this may be why so many went down this road with Paul. Someone sees his work online and gives him a call and he's cool to talk to and all seems good. It might be easy to think that the problem isn't with Paul but with the customer instead and since he seems so cool and put together they give him some money. His natural charm is effective.

I can't get in his or anyone else's head and know what their thoughts and intentions are so certainly have no way of telling if his intention is to take money and not deliver or if it just ends up working out that way all too often. But the simple fact of the matter is that many folks have gone down this path with Paul and had an unhappy ending.

The real shame of it is of course twofold IMO - first is the obvious.........that people give their money and trust to a person and have that repaid with lies and deceit. This sucks. What also sucks is that some swear off having anyone ever build them a bike because they somehow assume we builders are all cut from the same cloth. It's just not true of course but I can understand how folks out there could get that feeling. This makes it personal for builders like me and so many others that strive for top shelf customer service and product.

I hope not too many here want to swear off having a bike built just for them by a reputable builder based on others experiences with Paul. I think this kind of thing is a reminder that there are those out there that are much less than professional and that doing a bit of homework ahead of time is a very good idea. Google the builder by name and by the company name and see what you get. If you see bad stuff and multiple reports of wrong doping please do not discount them. Also - if the price seems to be too good to be true it probably is.

I really do feel awful for the people that have placed their trust in a builder only to be ripped off. It's not supposed to go that way. You guys truly got the ***** end of the stick. There are many reputable builders out there that will give you good customer service and a very good value for your money - please give the good guys your business and know that all builders are not the same.

Thanks for reading.

dave

[jr59]

It's interesting. I have met Paul only once at a social engagement and he was really easy to talk to and presented himself very well. He made eye contact when we spoke and was charming in a way. I could see how people like him.

All the while when I was talking with him I had trouble reconciling all the reports I'd heard about him and how he conducts his business. Not that I doubted the reports I'd read and heard but that it seemed out of character when I was speaking with the man. I think this may be why so many went down this road with Paul. Someone sees his work online and gives him a call and he's cool to talk to and all seems good. It might be easy to think that the problem isn't with Paul but with the customer instead and since he seems so cool and put together they give him some money. His natural charm is effective.

I can't get in his or anyone else's head and know what their thoughts and intentions are so certainly have no way of telling if his intention is to take money and not deliver or if it just ends up working out that way all too often. But the simple fact of the matter is that many folks have gone down this path with Paul and had an unhappy ending.

The real shame of it is of course twofold IMO - first is the obvious.........that people give their money and trust to a person and have that repaid with lies and deceit. This sucks. What also sucks is that some swear off having anyone ever build them a bike because they somehow assume we builders are all cut from the same cloth. It's just not true of course but I can understand how folks out there could get that feeling. This makes it personal for builders like me and so many others that strive for top shelf customer service and product.

I hope not too many here want to swear off having a bike built just for them by a reputable builder based on others experiences with Paul. I think this kind of thing is a reminder that there are those out there that are much less than professional and that doing a bit of homework ahead of time is a very good idea. Google the builder by name and by the company name and see what you get. If you see bad stuff and multiple reports of wrong doping please do not discount them. Also - if the price seems to be too good to be true it probably is.

I really do feel awful for the people that have placed their trust in a builder only to be ripped off. It's not supposed to go that way. You guys truly got the ***** end of the stick. There are many reputable builders out there that will give you good customer service and a very good value for your money - please give the good guys your business and know that all builders are not the same.

Thanks for reading.

dave

Ok Dave; How do you tell a good one from a less than good one.

Of course you use the search engine of your choise, google, yahoo, bing.
The point is nobody can make everyone happy. Everybody has upset someone and not been perfect at everything. Where do you draw the line?
One bad report, two....? how many go unreported? How many get shouted down as a bad customer? The latter seems to happen all to often. I know, it's happened to me. I took the POS frame, and the semi-stock frame I had and built them up cheap and gave them away for a charity auction. Yet when someone asks about the builder, if I say something bad, or link another, on the forums, you seem to be shouted down. I saw the bad report before I contacted the builder. But i also saw where almost everyone said it was a bad customer. Well it happened to me as well. So I will ask you; How do you tell? All are good on the phone, and quick to help until they get your money.

Please DO NOT take this as personal. I don't mean it that way at all. You have always been more than good by me. And most all the other builders I have dealt with are as well, but how do you know? Where is the line? And when do we forgive one that has had problems?

It's a question I have wanted to ask for some time. I know it's a case by case deal and all people are not the same. But the questions are still the same.

Sorry if I have offended you or any other that build bikes for a living. Just wanted someone I respected opinion.

[54ny77]

Part of the answer is simple: framebuilders could have a simple contract that defines rights & obligations of both parties. It'd go a long way to formalizing what is otherwise a bro handshake via email.

[fourflys]

Good stuff Dave!

It is a shame a bad apple or two can sour most of a population... the good thing is in a community like this there are so many good examples of how this should be done that they outweigh the bad for most... Carl and yourself are two shining examples...

[Joachim]

Google the builder by name and by the company name and see what you get. If you see bad stuff and multiple reports of wrong doping please do not discount them. Also - if the price seems to be too good to be true it probably is.


While I agree with Dave for the most part, there is an omerta in the framebuilders world. I have found this personally with my issue. Customers do not want to out the offending builder since they are being "vindictive", "sour" etc etc. With the bad builders there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes. In the case with the builder I had an "experience" with, other builders tried to step in and make things right. In the mean time, the builder presented himself as a good guy and "making things right". This was untrue for the most part since he only made things right under pressure from others.

[slidey]

framebuilders could have a simple contract that defines rights & obligations of both parties. It'd go a long way to formalizing what is otherwise a bro handshake via email.

+1

[Joachim]

I am also never, ever again going to give my money to a relatively new framebuilder.

[fourflys]

I am also never, ever again going to give my money to a relatively new framebuilder.

one of the many reasons I'm waiting another 6-7 yrs for a frameset... just something about experience...

[MattTuck]

While I agree with Dave for the most part, there is an omerta in the framebuilders world. I have found this personally with my issue. Customers do not want to out the offending builder since they are being "vindictive", "sour" etc etc. With the bad builders there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes. In the case with the builder I had an "experience" with, other builders tried to step in and make things right. In the mean time, the builder presented himself as a good guy and "making things right". This was untrue for the most part since he only made things right under pressure from others.

Yes, I'd agree to a certain extent. Communities like this one are the sort of regulators of the industry. If I posted a thread, "I'm thinking about a frame from xyz builder", and asking for people's experiences, I'd hope that whether they replied in a PM or for public consumption, people would give honest and enlightening opinions. This should give you some confidence that you're sending your money to a trustworthy builder.

It is a bit different when things 'go wrong', and you're trying to get a resolution to a problem. In that case, without a contract, there isn't much you can do. To the extent to which 'reputation is everything in this business', you hope we do a good job policing people's reputation.

Part of the answer is simple: framebuilders could have a simple contract that defines rights & obligations of both parties. It'd go a long way to formalizing what is otherwise a bro handshake via email.

Yeah. When frames are costing as much as they are, it is surprising that we don't see this.

[AngryScientist]

i personally applaud the framebuilders who make their queue public information, or at least share it with whoever is on the list.

if someone has a deposit down and knows, for sure that there are 136 people ahead of them in line, and can watch themselves move up, at whatever rate, it is reassuring that their ticket will come.

[MattTuck]

I am also never, ever again going to give my money to a relatively new framebuilder.

I'd say that is good wisdom right there. Only way that I'd do business with a new frame builder is if they were local (and I knew them personally, and where they lived/worked).

[CNY rider]

It's interesting. I have met Paul only once at a social engagement and he was really easy to talk to and presented himself very well. He made eye contact when we spoke and was charming in a way. I could see how people like him.

dave

This is a necessary ingredient in a succesful sociopath.

[christian]

If I posted a thread, "I'm thinking about a frame from xyz builder", and asking for people's experiences, I'd hope that whether they replied in a PM or for public consumption, people would give honest and enlightening opinions.Trouble is, it seems you'll get a lot more PMs than you will posts.

[Ahneida Ride]

One should get nervous when a builder claims that he will build any
frame, out of any material, with any style of construction, for one
low fixed price.

Lugged Stainless is same price as Tig steel

Kinka reminds me of Earl Scheib

I'll paint any car any color for 19.95.

well it stared at 19.95 (then frn dilution set in)

watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtjdHaMeiiQ

[David Kirk]

]Ok Dave; How do you tell a good one from a less than good one.
[/B]
Of course you use the search engine of your choise, google, yahoo, bing.
The point is nobody can make everyone happy. Everybody has upset someone and not been perfect at everything. Where do you draw the line?
One bad report, two....? how many go unreported? How many get shouted down as a bad customer? The latter seems to happen all to often. I know, it's happened to me. I took the POS frame, and the semi-stock frame I had and built them up cheap and gave them away for a charity auction. Yet when someone asks about the builder, if I say something bad, or link another, on the forums, you seem to be shouted down. I saw the bad report before I contacted the builder. But i also saw where almost everyone said it was a bad customer. Well it happened to me as well. So I will ask you; How do you tell? All are good on the phone, and quick to help until they get your money.

Please DO NOT take this as personal. I don't mean it that way at all. You have always been more than good by me. And most all the other builders I have dealt with are as well, but how do you know? Where is the line? And when do we forgive one that has had problems?

It's a question I have wanted to ask for some time. I know it's a case by case deal and all people are not the same. But the questions are still the same.

Sorry if I have offended you or any other that build bikes for a living. Just wanted someone I respected opinion.



You ask a very good and difficult to answer question and to be frank I don't have a solid answer to it.

How many 'strikes' make for an out in this biz? I don't know. No builder, myself included, has a 100% success rate so that all clients are perfectly happy and it would seem a shame to take the builder's name off the list because of a single bad report. But is two too many? Three? Again I don't know. I think the type of 'bad report' is subjective but important.

Seeing as no one (builder or client) is perfect we obviously need to cut at least a bit of slack here. I know that when I screw up I do my utmost to make the client happy and I think all of the good guys operate this way. So in a way it feels like it's not the fact that a mistake has been made that is the most important part here but how the builder deals with it after the fact that is.

But this is getting into the weeds just a bit I think. I recently sent out a frameset that had a very sweet paint job that wasn't exactly as requested. Wires and signals got crossed and while the paint was sweet it wasn't 'right'. The client has the bike now and will ride it this summer and send it back for a free repaint in the fall to be sure it's 100% right for him. This is how it should work IMO. Could this guy go online and say I effed up and should not be trusted? I suppose so. But all this said the mis-paint is a totally different deal that taking someone's money and disappearing. I would not confuse these two types of things.

So if you search and see that the builder has a reputation of being late with delivery by a month or two but has been reachable and in contact (not good but not a crime IMO) that is one thing.....if on the other hand the reports are that he took my money and won't return my calls that is another. Both are 'negative' feedback but one shows that the builder is human and the other shows that the builder is a crook. Two entirely different deals.

I think in the end that the client needs to weigh the search results and see what they are comfortable with. Ask others directly online how it went for them with a given builder and be open to what they are saying even if you are emotionally invested and really WANT that bike.

Lastly - I don't know what the deal with people being 'shouted down' is all about. I cringe whenever it happens and see a closed thread on a forum because one of the 'chosen ones' is being talked about in a negative way. I wish it could all be more transparent and less protective. That said I can understand at times why it is - to just err on the side of caution I think. Over the years I've had hundreds of customers and 99.9% of them are super cool. But a few have been real aceholes. It's bound to happen - put enough people in a room and someone will be an ace. The problem with the web is that it is anonymous and near impossible to tell a person who really did get the ***** end of the stick or is a wackjob who could never be made happy. So I think that some builders will always side with other builders and shut down threads and shout down folks that have less than positive things to say. I wish this censorship and pressure didn't happen and I do my best to stay far from it. And the easiest way, as a builder, to not be involved is to make happy customers and to stay away from the other builders who shout folks down.

Thanks again for the question - I do not take offense in the slightest and think it's a question that I wish I had a full answer to.

Thanks again,

dave

[Aaron O]

I think we're over thinking this...one turd didn't deliver for any number of reasons. It wasn't a mis-communication, it wasn't an unhappy customer upset that they used the wrong lugs, it's blatant non-performance so widely reported that what happened is fairly established. This doesn't reflect on the craft, it reflects on one guy.

It's pretty clear that most of the established players are reliable...when was the last time anyone heard of Mr. Kirk stealing a deposit? It's a bad apple...it happens.

[Joachim]

..one turd didn't deliver for any number of reasons. It wasn't a mis-communication, it reflects on one guy.

Yes, but this turd is not the only one.

[FlashUNC]

Yes, but this turd is not the only one.

But to be fair, as Mr Kirk points out, the good ones in this business vastly outnumber the bad apples.

Caveat emptor, of course, but it isn't as if the industry is rife with it. The community tends to identify and weed out the problems, at least from what I've seen.

I mean, at this point, would anyone get a Taylor frame?

[jr59]

You ask a very good and difficult to answer question and to be frank I don't have a solid answer to it.

How many 'strikes' make for an out in this biz? I don't know. No builder, myself included, has a 100% success rate so that all clients are perfectly happy and it would seem a shame to take the builder's name off the list because of a single bad report. But is two too many? Three? Again I don't know. I think the type of 'bad report' is subjective but important.

Seeing as no one (builder or client) is perfect we obviously need to cut at least a bit of slack here. I know that when I screw up I do my utmost to make the client happy and I think all of the good guys operate this way. So in a way it feels like it's not the fact that a mistake has been made that is the most important part here but how the builder deals with it after the fact that is.

But this is getting into the weeds just a bit I think. I recently sent out a frameset that had a very sweet paint job that wasn't exactly as requested. Wires and signals got crossed and while the paint was sweet it wasn't 'right'. The client has the bike now and will ride it this summer and send it back for a free repaint in the fall to be sure it's 100% right for him. This is how it should work IMO. Could this guy go online and say I effed up and should not be trusted? I suppose so. But all this said the mis-paint is a totally different deal that taking someone's money and disappearing. I would not confuse these two types of things.

So if you search and see that the builder has a reputation of being late with delivery by a month or two but has been reachable and in contact (not good but not a crime IMO) that is one thing.....if on the other hand the reports are that he took my money and won't return my calls that is another. Both are 'negative' feedback but one shows that the builder is human and the other shows that the builder is a crook. Two entirely different deals.

I think in the end that the client needs to weigh the search results and see what they are comfortable with. Ask others directly online how it went for them with a given builder and be open to what they are saying even if you are emotionally invested and really WANT that bike.

Lastly - I don't know what the deal with people being 'shouted down' is all about. I cringe whenever it happens and see a closed thread on a forum because one of the 'chosen ones' is being talked about in a negative way. I wish it could all be more transparent and less protective. That said I can understand at times why it is - to just err on the side of caution I think. Over the years I've had hundreds of customers and 99.9% of them are super cool. But a few have been real aceholes. It's bound to happen - put enough people in a room and someone will be an ace. The problem with the web is that it is anonymous and near impossible to tell a person who really did get the ***** end of the stick or is a wackjob who could never be made happy. So I think that some builders will always side with other builders and shut down threads and shout down folks that have less than positive things to say. I wish this censorship and pressure didn't happen and I do my best to stay far from it. And the easiest way, as a builder, to not be involved is to make happy customers and to stay away from the other builders who shout folks down.

Thanks again for the question - I do not take offense in the slightest and think it's a question that I wish I had a full answer to.

Thanks again,

dave

Thanks for you honest input Dave. It is quite refreshing to see someone be as open and honest in your reply. And thanks for taking part in our little forum. Your participation is always a blessing.

Now about that lead time....:p:banana:

[PoppaWheelie]

For me, the only right decision is to walk way. I was talking about doing this last year when I opened this post, but it has taken this long to really let it go. I'm disgusted enough that the effort to open a complaint (for which I'd never collect) would just prolong the frustration.

I had a frame by Paul...it was a great bike. I sold it when we talked about building a second. He responded to all my calls quickly and when we chatted openly about the delays with the first bike (which he delivered in about a year and a half I think) he assured me that he had really been working on his process and had an office manager to deal with all the communication. We talked a lot about timing and I got explicit reassurances that we weren't about to embark on a bonkers, drawn-out path. I really did like that first bike and frankly Paul is a personable guy...I had high hopes.

I think I know of about five people in a similar situation...losses range from deposits to full payment. I also know one individual who, years ago, sent Paul parts for eventual build and has not been able to retrieve them.

When I called Carl he was very generous with his time and I was grateful for the opportunity to chat with someone with at least a little insight. In a way I'm sorry to hear that the painting arrangement is broken...having a local vendor for that I'm sure is helpful for a builder and Paul has a kid to feed. I do wonder if the loss of the income stream there has anything to do with the complete lack of any communication lately.

Pah...quite a mess. I can't say that this hasn't tainted my appetite for custom frames. I've had bikes built by a number of great builders but at this point I'm sick to death of the process of waiting, wondering and fretting. Thank Gawd I'm in Zank's hands right now...with the exception of the need to muster a little patience I have no worries about either the quality or the ethics of the transaction.

[fuzzalow]

Thank you Dave Kirk.

Honest talk from DK on a topic from which there are no easy answers and at least 3 sides to every story. ;) Involving client decisions based as much on emotion as sheer rationality. Sometimes with legions of fans, many of whom do not even own the builder's work, chorusing their praises in shout-down. Oft times with reticent clients reluctant to come public with their grievance and ruin any chance of getting their bike as possible retribution. Sometimes with clients that read too much web and fancy themselves designers. Sometimes with clients that do not know how to work with creative builders in an environment of mutual respect.

Stuff like this is just the tip of the iceberg. Simply reading about grievances, what little information such as can be found in forums such as this, is not timely or open enough to be useful to most buyers. Largely because the constant stalling and delay tactics of dishonest builders and partly for lack of any real recourse open to a client to pursue - so you play the only terrible hand you have which is to just hang on - waiting for Godot.

No easy answers other than to deal with only builders that have real reputations and real track records and not internet hype and flavor of the month.

[Joachim]

^^^ and that's why I went with Dave.

[J.Greene]

I'm one of the newer guys. It bothers me to read a thread like this. It bothers me to read that someone will discount what I do just because I'm newer. I fully understand why. I have used professionals in other areas and have been unhappy with the results. I've been defrauded by a contractor, the guy walked away with 2k of mine. All I know to do is communicate well and have simple policies where myself and the client are protected and feel comfortable. Instead of just writing us off, if something one of us does is something you like, PM some owners in the gallery page. Ask about communication. Ask if anything didn't add up. Call the builder. We are never fully safe from others but its not so hard to do a little leg work. There are some of my newer peers I would buy a frame from without question.

[sn69]

So all this about Paul makes me wonder what number of those taken in by his too good to be true offering of a couple of years ago - how many paid and never got their bike?

I was a hare's breath away from forking over the deposit.

AND most of all it makes me wonder if the offering was a premeditated scheme on his part to get money fast and then run the hell away? Can we say pathological?

I was one who took advantage of that deal, and even though it wasn't without issues, in the end I ended up with a frameset that I like and am still riding. I hope he can find center and get things straightened, but my most recent purchase was from Firefly. Different experience entirely, and I WILL go back to them.

Scott

[I Want Sachs?]

We all like to help out fellow bike lovers/builders etc. However, the question becomes how willing are you to take risks, and what price does that entail.

There are certainly stories about builders on the way to redemption such as Goodrich and Steelman, and others that failed again and again despite given benefit of the doubt such as in this case.

Lay out your money and maybe there is a great ride at the end, or you can go the safe route and buy a Specialized/Trek/Cannondale where it's about the bike, not the builder.

[sc53]

The bad eggs can be counted on one hand and not use up all your fingers. Their by now well-known names always get trotted out every time somebody asks about any of them. On the other hand, reliable framebuilders who deliver what you paid for within a reasonable time, with good communication all along the way, are too many to count. There are literally dozens of them. William has put many in the Spotlight here. I don't like to see the shouting down that occasionally occurs when one of the bad eggs is mentioned, but typically the shouters are called out and the information gets out there, where it needs to be, for people to make their own reasonable decisions. As Dave noted, there is a BIG difference between somebody's disappointment in how a custom frame turned out and fraud and theft.

[jr59]

I'm one of the newer guys. It bothers me to read a thread like this. It bothers me to read that someone will discount what I do just because I'm newer. I fully understand why. I have used professionals in other areas and have been unhappy with the results. I've been defrauded by a contractor, the guy walked away with 2k of mine. All I know to do is communicate well and have simple policies where myself and the client are protected and feel comfortable. Instead of just writing us off, if something one of us does is something you like, PM some owners in the gallery page. Ask about communication. Ask if anything didn't add up. Call the builder. We are never fully safe from others but its not so hard to do a little leg work. There are some of my newer peers I would buy a frame from without question.

Sure thing Mr Greene; I'm sure the people who had less than good experiences are going to post them in the gallery page and say;" Look at my POS that this builder built" that's really going to work. The people who are posting in those type of galleries are fans, of course they are going to be happy. Calling the builder is of little use as well. All are good at the sales they have to do to even think about building from the net. Again, this is not personal, just what you propose will not give you at look at anything but what the builder wants you to see. I would go as far as to say, most unhappy customers don't say anything at all. Most simply sell, or in my case give away the frame in question, and don't say a word. WHY? because the frame building fan boys come out of the wood work to tell you to STFU and you are a "bad" customer. I know, I use to keep a record of people who had trouble with their custom frames, yet did not want their names used. it's WAY,WSY more than you might think!

So I will ask you; How should one guess on who to trust and who might flake at any time?

[J.Greene]

Sure thing Mr Greene; I'm sure the people who had less than good experiences are going to post them in the gallery page and say;" Look at my POS that this builder built" that's really going to work. The people who are posting in those type of galleries are fans, of course they are going to be happy. Calling the builder is of little use as well. All are good at the sales they have to do to even think about building from the net. Again, this is not personal, just what you propose will not give you at look at anything but what the builder wants you to see. I would go as far as to say, most unhappy customers don't say anything at all. Most simply sell, or in my case give away the frame in question, and don't say a word. WHY? because the frame building fan boys come out of the wood work to tell you to STFU and you are a "bad" customer. I know, I use to keep a record of people who had trouble with their custom frames, yet did not want their names used. it's WAY,WSY more than you might think!

So I will ask you; How should one guess on who to trust and who might flake at any time?

Everyone should earn their good fortune and good reputation in my opinion. Ive been on both sides. If a newer builder has plenty of good experiences there will be people you can trust who can give an appropriate reference on this forum and others. Discount the fan boys if you must, but I don't believe the information channel is as you describe. It's too simple, but if it works for you I'm ok with that. I don't think other folks want to tar us all with the same brush because of the business failings of a few.

[jr59]

Everyone should earn their good fortune and good reputation in my opinion. Ive been on both sides. If a newer builder has plenty of good experiences there will be people you can trust who can give an appropriate reference on this forum and others. Discount the fan boys if you must, but I don't believe the information channel is as you describe. It's too simple, but if it works for you I'm ok with that. I don't think other folks want to tar us all with the same brush because of the business failings of a few.

I am NOT tarring anybody on here. I simply asked a question. What is simple, is the FACT that the unhappy customer will NEVER post the bike he is not happy with in a gallery. So asking the people who do post in a gallery does what?

[Climb01742]

Let me add to the search results if someone googles 'David Kirk'...

Dave is as honest, honorable and talented as the day is long...or as long as Dave is tall. And Dave is wicked tall.

My guess is, anyone who hangs out here has a pretty good idea who is good and trustworthy. Reputations are built, I think, on the bell curve part of the commentary curve, not the outliers.

[KidWok]

I've had the misfortune of being with someone diagnosed with mental health issues that exhibited some of the behaviors described of Paul. Engaging, social, charming, etc...yet in contrast with a huge lack of organization, ethics, and reciprocal respect. Not saying that Paul has mental health issues...I can relate to the need to both demonize and defend a person exhibiting such behaviors.

This situation reminds me of those meme's going around saying something to the effect that "Treating all Muslims as if they were terrorists is the same as treating all Christians as if they were members of Westboro Baptist Church". Would agree 100% with those that say it is completely unfair to judge other custom builders based on Paul's actions, especially when those builders are in here offering their objective opinions and very much proving that they follow a different moral code.

There are indeed two sides to every story...I had firsthand accounts of an ugly situation for a reputable Seattle-area builder. I was friends with both parties and saw where they both behaved less the admirably. Isolated incidents should definitely be reviewed critically. Patterns of behavior should sound alarms.

Didn't see too many other people expressing this so I wanted to offer kudos to Carl Strong for assisting Paul and his unhappy customers. I'm really blown away by his compassion and attempts to bring the situation to right for all parties, even Paul. I have a hard time imagining that Carl wasn't one of the bridges left burned when Paul left town, yet Carl doesn't represent himself as such. There is a deficit of compassion in this world and this is exactly the reason why I would want to buy a bike from Carl. Kirk and Strong were very much on the top of my list for my next bike and I'm sorry to say to David that Carl might have won my business with this incident.

Kudos also to those unhappy customers who are licking their wounds and moving on. No small feat.

Tai

[JLNK]

Over the years I have ordered, and received, frames from Richard Sachs, Waterford, Habanero, Carl Strong, Lighthouse, and Serotta. All aspects of my experience with these builders was positive. Since my experience with Paul Taylor I ordered and received 2 MAX frames from Tim Neenan at Lighthouse. If in the market I would not hesitate to order a frame from any number of current builders who, as far as I know, have positive reputations.

[David Kirk]

...............

Didn't see too many other people expressing this so I wanted to offer kudos to Carl Strong for assisting Paul and his unhappy customers. I'm really blown away by his compassion and attempts to bring the situation to right for all parties, even Paul. I have a hard time imagining that Carl wasn't one of the bridges left burned when Paul left town, yet Carl doesn't represent himself as such. There is a deficit of compassion in this world and this is exactly the reason why I would want to buy a bike from Carl. Kirk and Strong were very much on the top of my list for my next bike and I'm sorry to say to David that Carl might have won my business with this incident.

.....................

Tai

I'm pleased to call Carl a close friend and if I have to 'lose' a sale to anyone I'd like it to be Carl - he's a good man who also knows how to build a great bike. Top shelf he is.

dave

[sashae]

The bad eggs can be counted on one hand and not use up all your fingers. Their by now well-known names always get trotted out every time somebody asks about any of them.

Ehhh, there's other guys out there that have disappeared from the framebuilding space that have done people badly as well (I should know, I lost $1k + a box of parts to one of the miscreants.) It's something that's rife across any 'small business/sole proprietorship' business though -- people will get in bad spots and not be able to deliver, or will be unethical, or whatever else. It's truly a shame.

[fuzzalow]

Everyone should earn their good fortune and good reputation in my opinion. Ive been on both sides. If a newer builder has plenty of good experiences there will be people you can trust who can give an appropriate reference on this forum and others. Discount the fan boys if you must, but I don't believe the information channel is as you describe. It's too simple, but if it works for you I'm ok with that. I don't think other folks want to tar us all with the same brush because of the business failings of a few.

No one would dispute that each builder should earn their own reputation.

"Discount the fan boys if you must" (emphasis mine) is an odd statement - who, except those captive to in-group behavior, lends any credibility to what any fan boy says at all. The damage done by shout-downs and hype by the fan boy outweighs the benefits - clients with earning power are not usually beholden to or susceptible to cool crowd peer pressure. That behavior reflective of high school herd mentality to most adults might be amusing to observe but rebarbative to participate in.

The channel you referenced as a source for open discourse is anything but that at all - that channel is is as one-sided and as opaque as any I am aware of. IMO of course.

[Aaron O]

I don't know J Greene...and I know that it's likely unfair to him and other small builders...but when getting a frame for me, I'd chose an established "big gun." Mr. Kirk, Mr. Bedford, Mr. Kvale, Mr. Bilenky, Spectrum. Part of it is the trust factor, but a bigger part is just experience. How many frames has mr. Kirk built? How much experience does Mr. Kellogg have with fits? I want those guys.

I would pick a smaller local builder if I knew him, knew his work and had a contract.

[J.Greene]

I am NOT tarring anybody on here. I simply asked a question. What is simple, is the FACT that the unhappy customer will NEVER post the bike he is not happy with in a gallery. So asking the people who do post in a gallery does what?

I don't know why you've teed off on me, But when you say that the people here who post in the gallery won't be honest, I just don't buy that. When I last looked at the gallery there were esteemed names posting there. I think the fellow forum-istas will share honestly. So let me get back to my original point that you want to dice up and deconstruct. If anyone reading this is interested in a newer builder because of something they've seen, they should do some legwork and not just write that person off. The esteemed framebuilders mentioned here and the ones posting here have all had to hang a shingle with their own names and earn the trust of their customers by working hard, making good on commitments and running a successful business. For the life of me I don't see how its any different than having a pool resurfaced, roof installed or a landscaping job done. Most of us do this sort of thing periodically.

[tch]

....but very interested. First, kudos (as always) to Dave Kirk and Carl Strong for being fair and forthright. I'm sorry to hear about anyone who behaves in the ways described above. It may be pathological; it may be circumstance -- I cannot judge.

The really unfortunate and ironic part is that I'm the owner of a Taylor frame which I got 2nd hand from someone unhappy with the buying experience. As the seller said to me, I may have gotten the best deal of all: I got the bike but didn't have to deal with the person. In fact, I really like the frame -- it fits, responds as well as any other bike I've owned, and meets criteria in terms of weight, etc. (I'm not a true connoisseur of handmade frames, so there's that). But it seems that not only has PT thrown away a lot of good will from people, it seems he's thrown away a decent talent, too.

[William]

I wouldn't wright off a small/newer builder just because they are new to the scene. I would however really dig for information from multiple sources before considering making that leap. I mean, some of the big guns now had folks making that "new builder" leap at one point for them to get to where they are today.






William

[rugbysecondrow]

So all this about Paul makes me wonder what number of those taken in by his too good to be true offering of a couple of years ago - how many paid and never got their bike?

I was a hare's breath away from forking over the deposit.

AND most of all it makes me wonder if the offering was a premeditated scheme on his part to get money fast and then run the hell away? Can we say pathological?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864

I tried outing this man a few years ago and it was not well recieved by many, my motives and truthfulness were challenged by others as just "stories". Back then, when the "too good too be true" deal was offered, it wasn't too good to be true. Curtlo, Waltworks and others had similar pricing, so it wasn't unheard of for $1300. Additionally, I was new to custom frames so I did what people do, used my google machine...no red flags. Additionally, searching on this forum didn't afford me any warning signs. Once I outed him and brought light to this issue, I got dozens of emails/pms from unhappy clients of Taylors and other builder who would not go public for a variety of reasons. They still had hope of getting money/frame and didn't want to ruin that. They didn't want to get shouted down. Other felt responsible (like a victimhood) for their loss. It was crazy to me, it is just a ****ing bike frame and just a ****ing frame builder, but people would tiptoe around and only complain/speak about the problems in the shadows. That is BS.

I am glad we can have more open conversation with out the circle jerk fan boys brow beating others into not coming forward. How many people had to get taken by Taylor for us to realize it was OK to come out and make others aware of this fraud. I was appalled by the number of people who had been cheated by this man well before I put down a deposit, but never discussed this openly. How many people did they allow to be cheated?

Folks say there are only a few, only a few who we know about. How many more are still out there with fearful "clients" not coming forward? My point, this has to end.

[AngryScientist]

I wouldn't wright off a small/newer builder just because they are new to the scene. I would however really dig for information from multiple sources before considering making that leap. I mean, some of the big guns now had folks making that "new builder" leap at one point for them to get to where they are today.






William

i'm with William on this.

[AngryScientist]

i'm with William on this.

and my $ is in the hands of a relatively new builder right now too. so my money is in fact, where my mouth is.

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't know why you've teed off on me, But when you say that the people here who post in the gallery won't be honest, I just don't buy that. When I last looked at the gallery there were esteemed names posting there. I think the fellow forum-istas will share honestly. So let me get back to my original point that you want to dice up and deconstruct. If anyone reading this is interested in a newer builder because of something they've seen, they should do some legwork and not just write that person off. The esteemed framebuilders mentioned here and the ones posting here have all had to hang a shingle with their own names and earn the trust of their customers by working hard, making good on commitments and running a successful business. For the life of me I don't see how its any different than having a pool resurfaced, roof installed or a landscaping job done. Most of us do this sort of thing periodically.

I agree, you ought not be written off because you are new. I follow your Facebook page and I appreciate the smaller/newer guys. That said, there is a comfort level which has to be earned and I think doing it the right way, as you appear to be doing, counts for a lot, just as it would in any industry.

All of that said, here and accross the hall, there is/was a culture of shouting down anybody who said anything remotely negative about a builder. Maybe it was the cult, fan boys, maybe it was fear that the builders and their fragile egos (jokes) would leave if people complained, maybe it was annoyance with these wee customers who just don't get it. Regardless, that was the culture, it seems to have changed some here, can't speak to there.

All that said, I dig what you are doing and wish you the best of luck. :beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

and my $ is in the hands of a relatively new builder right now too. so my money is in fact, where my mouth is.

quoting yourself...poor form. :banana::banana:

[William]

Folks say there are only a few, only a few who we know about. How many more are still out there with fearful "clients" not coming forward? My point, this has to end.

I would hope that the members feel that the Paceline is a place to share their experiences, good and bad. It's a fine line to walk, getting industry folks to participate and get non industry members to share product experiences. There will always be good and bad and my hope is that we can share and look out for each other no matter which side of the fence we fall.





William

[rugbysecondrow]

I would hope that the members feel that the Paceline is a place to share their experiences, good and bad. It's a fine line to walk, getting industry folks to participate and get non industry members to share product experiences. There will always be good and bad and my hope is that we can share and look out for each other no matter which side of the fence we fall.





William

I agree, maybe the culture is shifting, but you know that has not historically been the case.

I am excitable when it comes to this as I was one taken by Taylor. Luckily I got my money back, but it was a stressful period and it caused much more consternation then it should have. It is not just toying with money, but toying with somebodies dream which sucks. Then, the realization, you might actually get the frame...that is just as sickening, maybe even more. Having a ****ing reminder of the ordeal. Yuck.

[William]

I agree, maybe the culture is shifting, but you know that has not historically been the case.



We're trying.:)





William

[J.Greene]

I agree, maybe the culture is shifting, but you know that has not historically been the case.

I am excitable when it comes to this as I was one taken by Taylor. Luckily I got my money back, but it was a stressful period and it caused much more consternation then it should have. It is not just toying with money, but toying with somebodies dream which sucks. Then, the realization, you might actually get the frame...that is just as sickening, maybe even more. Having a ****ing reminder of the ordeal. Yuck.


Thank you for the kind works. I'm am ok with having to work harder and be more attentive if it means that we can try to avoid as many of these situations above in the future as possible.

[bluesea]

I am glad we can have more open conversation with out the circle jerk fan boys brow beating others into not coming forward. How many people had to get taken by Taylor for us to realize it was OK to come out and make others aware of this fraud. I was appalled by the number of people who had been cheated by this man well before I put down a deposit, but never discussed this openly. How many people did they allow to be cheated?

Folks say there are only a few, only a few who we know about. How many more are still out there with fearful "clients" not coming forward? My point, this has to end.


Yup. Kind of a positive-negative thing happening on this side of the ocean.

[rwsaunders]

For the life of me I don't see how its any different than having a pool resurfaced, roof installed or a landscaping job done. Most of us do this sort of thing periodically.


A major contrast in terms of the examples that you have identified is that buying a custom bicycle frame is often both a virtual and remote transaction, with very little recourse for the buyer when something goes wrong. Do most custom builders offer a contract which identifies terms and conditions regarding the transaction? I'm not sure as I haven't commissioned a custom frame.

In Florida at least, a contractor is required to be licensed, insured and bonded. That doesn't provide total protection from fraudulent or negligent activities, but it's more than is offered in the case of buying a custom bicycle frame. Also, the contractor is most likely local in some regards and hopefully as a buyer, you have confirmed that they have favorable references, as well as a physical address.

[Aaron O]

A major contrast in terms of the examples that you have identified is that buying a custom bicycle frame is often both a virtual and remote transaction, with very little recourse for the buyer when something goes wrong. Do most custom builders offer a contract which identifies terms and conditions regarding the transaction? I'm not sure as I haven't commissioned a custom frame.

In Florida at least, a contractor is required to be licensed, insured and bonded. That doesn't provide total protection from fraudulent or negligent activities, but it's more than is offered in the case of buying a custom bicycle frame. Also, the contractor is most likely local in some regards and hopefully as a buyer, you have confirmed that they have favorable references, as well as a physical address.

Another difference is that it's common to use milestone payments regarding a contractor - typically 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Such is not the case regarding a custom bicycle. I also don't think giving a contractor a deposit months before the work begins as a placeholder is typical.

[the bottle ride]

I am just glad there is not those here who are willing to defend the indefensible or the thread gets locked-which has been the case on a few occasions when it was warranted to have a discussion on what is really a PSA for potential buyers...

[beeatnik]

Good info in this thread. Voices of reason and such.

And then there's the allusion to the Holocaust and the OJ reference. I guess there's a fine line between information and entertainment.

[eddief]

makes millions of dollars living on that fine line.

Good info in this thread. Voices of reason and such.

And then there's the allusion to the holocaust and the OJ reference. I guess there's a fine line between information and entertainment.

[MRB]

I had all but given up on my frame, then on Feb 14 (Valentines Day) I received this email from Paul:
-----
Paul Taylor <taylorbicycles.pt@gmail.com>
Feb 14
to me
Hi John, Frame WILL be coming your way this coming week, thanks for your patience.
-------

It is now May, and that week long since passed. 1697860627

[Grant McLean]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864

I tried outing this man a few years ago and it was not well recieved by many, my motives and truthfulness were challenged by others as "stories"

I re-read the thread you posted, it seems to me your characterization here today
is an over-reaction. Nobody questioned your motives, some questioned the
proposed idea of a place on the forum to rate frame builders.

You should be man enough to quote Richard Sachs directly if you're going to
go back and drag his comments out of context. He did not say what you are
suggesting (calling your problem a story). He wasn't even talking about you.
His point is that stories have two sides.

-g

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Bryan's ordeal with Paul Taylor is simply one of many cautionary tales when dealing with a small business owner, in this case, a small frame builder. I have had the good fortune of ordering from several renown framebuilders and I can say wholeheartedly that I will certainly order from some of them again (looking right at you, Dave), and I will never consider dealing with the others again.

What I expect from people I deal with is clear and honest communication. If you tell me you're going to have the frameset by date X, then I expect it right around that date, giving a reasonable amount of extra time for unforeseen circumstances. But if you blow that date, and then give me another after another unrealistic delivery date, then you've lost me as a customer.

Let's face it, some framebuilders have a very difficult time communicating with customers and handling customer expectations (especially regarding delivery of a frameset). For some customers, it's not that big a deal so long as a frameset materializes at some point down the line. I am not one of them.

So, like Joachim, I'm probably not going to venture too far away from the well-respected folks who have done right by their many customers in delivering a great custom frameset. Is that fair to the new, up and coming builders? Probably not. But having recently opened my own small business, I know all too well that the process of winning that respect and trust from clients takes time and is hard won.

[rugbysecondrow]

I re-read the thread you posted, it seems to me your characterization here today
is an over-reaction. Nobody questioned your motives, some questioned the
proposed idea of a place on the forum to rate frame builders.

You should be man enough to quote Richard Sachs directly if you're going to
go back and drag his comments out of context. He did not say what you are
suggesting (calling your problem a story). He wasn't even talking about you.
His point is that stories have two sides.

-g

stories often can be just that - stories. Direct quote.



Man enough...please. If I thought it was important who said it, I would have quoted him. Apparently you feel the need and I am sure you feel better for it.

I don't think I mischarectorized nor did i over react. Certainly you can think so, but that means little, especially those cheated and defrauded. People wanted these stories in the shadows, living on emails and PMs...that does no future customer any good. That is what allowed others to be defrauded as well.

[fuzzalow]

I re-read the thread you posted, it seems to me your characterization here today
is an over-reaction. Nobody questioned your motives, some questioned the
proposed idea of a place on the forum to rate frame builders.

You should be man enough to quote Richard Sachs directly if you're going to
go back and drag his comments out of context. He did not say what you are
suggesting (calling your problem a story). He wasn't even talking about you.
His point is that stories have two sides.

-g

This is an example of what I was referring to when I posted earlier about shout-downs and in-group behavior. In this case the quoted poster here is rushing to the defense of a person he feels clearly indoctrinated to defend. As evidenced here, I was also not exaggerating when I proposed earlier that this in-group behaviour bordered on a high school mentality. I have not heard the call out of "man enough" since playground spats in middle school.

Please keep this type of inculcated, sycophantic behaviour out of this forum, there is no place for it in having intelligent conversation between adults. Worse still, the atmosphere of brow beating imparted by this type of blather is oppressive.

There are proper venues and forums that do however encourage and support this type of response. It is my hope that Paceline is not, nor is allowed to become, one of those types of venues.

Finally, the response to rugbysecondrow was incorrect. Please reread the linked thread again, this time with greater comprehension.

This post (see http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=862366&postcount=14) was not stating that stories have two sides - the poster had already said he was in agreement with an earlier post that had already made that very remark and was one of two quotes contained in the response. The actual remark that was claimed as misread by rugbysecondrow was indeed a disparaging remark questioning the validity or truthfulness of a client's claim or complaint against a builder. Perhaps not directed at rugbysecondrow but making the point of calling someone's problem "a story".

[beeatnik]

Good post, Fuzzalow.

Rugby, I wouldn't eff with you if it came to moneys.

And, finally, I think there are still cats out there who haven't heard of Yelp.

[jlwdm]

Fuzzalow, -1.

Jeff

[Grant McLean]

This is an example of what I was referring to when I posted earlier about shout-downs and in-group behavior. In this case the quoted poster here is rushing to the defense of a person he feels clearly indoctrinated to defend. As evidenced here, I was also not exaggerating when I proposed earlier that this in-group behaviour bordered on a high school mentality. I have not heard the call out of "man enough" since playground spats in middle school.

Please keep this type of inculcated, sycophantic behaviour out of this forum, there is no place for it in having intelligent conversation between adults. Worse still, the atmosphere of brow beating imparted by this type of blather is oppressive.

There are proper venues and forums that do however encourage and support this type of response. It is my hope that Paceline is not, nor is allowed to become, one of those types of venues.

Finally, the response to rugbysecondrow was incorrect. Please reread the linked thread again, this time with greater comprehension.

This post (see http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=862366&postcount=14) was not stating that stories have two sides - the poster had already said he was in agreement with an earlier post that had already made that very remark and was one of two quotes contained in the response. The actual remark that was claimed as misread by rugbysecondrow was indeed a disparaging remark questioning the validity or truthfulness of a client's claim or complaint against a builder. Perhaps not directed at rugbysecondrow but making the point of calling someone's problem "a story".

This petty garbage makes this place insufferable.

Richard, like many here, are personal friends going back a decade.
The constant refrain of high school is wounded schtick and tiresome,
makes this place toxic.

Goodbye, good riddance.

-g

[54ny77]

this kind of thread is why i've just about given up on custom. am happy to buy used custom that fits, of course, but from this point forward, with 1 or maybe 2 exceptions, it's off-the-rack for me if new. i'm lucky i'm in the bell curve in terms of fit, so it's not much of an issue.

i know of more than a handful of heretofore worshipped builders and vendors who've just outright screwed their clients (including myself). and their fanboys, as the term is often used, continue to deny. well, unless you're in a screwed client's shoes, then your opinion is as valuable, or as worthless, as anyone else's. i once recommended a builder who i personally am a huge fan of (i own 3 of his bikes), and the experience for the new buyer was very unpleasant. i felt so bad that if the frame fit, i'd have bought it out of guilt. but, it didn't fit and it was a situation where the buyer rode it anyway (and with respect to buying it, he said he's a big boy & can deal with it) and i guess (hope, really) he's ok with it by now. all that said, the patina of bad experience mutes what should be joy & a fun process. i also recommended a different builder that was such a disaster it blows my mind he's still actually in biz. so many of these clowns are borderline ponzi-like builders--paycheck to paycheck, deposits for future stuff covering current bills.

i'll never, ever recommend a custom bike experience for someone other than the usual 2-3 long time reputable builders who've been at their craft longer than many builders have been alive. i've referred several folks/friends lookin' for rigs to off-the-rack models from parlee, cannondale or specialized. they work. they can be walked out of store. if there's an issue, you go back to store and hand it over the counter for issue fixin'. no bro handshake, no maybe you'll get it when you get it, no well gosh the guy had a brutal hangnail and is now severely depressed and can't pick up a torch. instead with a off rack bike, if there's a major issue, call up credit card company and dispute it. presto, done.

[retrogrouchy]

Fuzzalow, -1.

Jeff

Can you be (a whole lot) more specific on that? I (and probably many others, I would guess) have no idea what you are trying to say. :confused:

[retrogrouchy]

This petty garbage makes this place insufferable.

Richard, like many here, are personal friends going back a decade.
The constant refrain of high school is wounded schtick and tiresome,
makes this place toxic.

Goodbye, good riddance.

-g

:hello: Watch out for that door on your way out!

[retrogrouchy]

Thank you Dave Kirk.

Honest talk from DK on a topic from which there are no easy answers and at least 3 sides to every story. ;) Involving client decisions based as much on emotion as sheer rationality. Sometimes with legions of fans, many of whom do not even own the builder's work, chorusing their praises in shout-down. Oft times with reticent clients reluctant to come public with their grievance and ruin any chance of getting their bike as possible retribution. Sometimes with clients that read too much web and fancy themselves designers. Sometimes with clients that do not know how to work with creative builders in an environment of mutual respect.

Stuff like this is just the tip of the iceberg. Simply reading about grievances, what little information such as can be found in forums such as this, is not timely or open enough to be useful to most buyers. Largely because the constant stalling and delay tactics of dishonest builders and partly for lack of any real recourse open to a client to pursue - so you play the only terrible hand you have which is to just hang on - waiting for Godot.

No easy answers other than to deal with only builders that have real reputations and real track records and not internet hype and flavor of the month.

Word!

You nailed it, based on what I know (and I've been 'round this game for many a decade...).

[retrogrouchy]

I don't know J Greene...and I know that it's likely unfair to him and other small builders...but when getting a frame for me, I'd chose an established "big gun." Mr. Kirk, Mr. Bedford, Mr. Kvale, Mr. Bilenky, Spectrum. Part of it is the trust factor, but a bigger part is just experience. How many frames has mr. Kirk built? How much experience does Mr. Kellogg have with fits? I want those guys.

I would pick a smaller local builder if I knew him, knew his work and had a contract.

I'm glad you put Chris Kvale in the mix. I would not hesitate to purchase a custom frameset from him (or have him paint a frame for me again - he is also an extremely skilled painter). I can say that there are at least two other builders in the Twin City area that I would not give any money to, at this point, based on personal experiences.

[mjb266]

:hello: Watch out for that door on your way out!

Grant is one of the most knowledgeable folks on this forum (equal to D. Kirk) and he's the sort of contributor who maintains an extremely high signal to noise ratio. If he leaves everyone left loses out.

Your response is petty.

[Louis]

All this childish stuff is going to get the thread locked, and folks will say "see, those threads are always locked to protect the guilty."

[retrogrouchy]

Grant is one of the most knowledgeable folks on this forum (equal to D. Kirk) and he's the sort of contributor who maintains an extremely high signal to noise ratio. If he leaves everyone left loses out.

Your response is petty.

I'm happy to stand by what I've said, based on all that I know in general, and have read in this thread in particular. Are you? :banana:

[mjb266]

Thanks god there's an ignore option.

[Anarchist]

Grant is one of the most knowledgeable folks on this forum (equal to D. Kirk) and he's the sort of contributor who maintains an extremely high signal to noise ratio. If he leaves everyone left loses out.

Your response is petty.

Well,

I went back and read that old thread a couple of times. And read the relevant posts here a few times and to be honest, I fail to see what the fuss was about, or the cause of the drama.

[Louis]

the cause of the drama.

Some folks have higher gain factors than others.

[zetroc]

And here I was wondering why I don't read this forum more often.

[Louis]

And here I was wondering why I don't read this forum more often.

You learn to filter out the noise. Can't expect everything to be perfect.

[tuxbailey]

This is an example of what I was referring to when I posted earlier about shout-downs and in-group behavior. In this case the quoted poster here is rushing to the defense of a person he feels clearly indoctrinated to defend. As evidenced here, I was also not exaggerating when I proposed earlier that this in-group behaviour bordered on a high school mentality. I have not heard the call out of "man enough" since playground spats in middle school.

Please keep this type of inculcated, sycophantic behaviour out of this forum, there is no place for it in having intelligent conversation between adults. Worse still, the atmosphere of brow beating imparted by this type of blather is oppressive.

There are proper venues and forums that do however encourage and support this type of response. It is my hope that Paceline is not, nor is allowed to become, one of those types of venues.

Finally, the response to rugbysecondrow was incorrect. Please reread the linked thread again, this time with greater comprehension.

This post (see http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=862366&postcount=14) was not stating that stories have two sides - the poster had already said he was in agreement with an earlier post that had already made that very remark and was one of two quotes contained in the response. The actual remark that was claimed as misread by rugbysecondrow was indeed a disparaging remark questioning the validity or truthfulness of a client's claim or complaint against a builder. Perhaps not directed at rugbysecondrow but making the point of calling someone's problem "a story".

Say, are you a lawyer?

[bluesea]

This is an example of what I was referring to when I posted earlier about shout-downs and in-group behavior. In this case the quoted poster here is rushing to the defense of a person he feels clearly indoctrinated to defend. As evidenced here, I was also not exaggerating when I proposed earlier that this in-group behaviour bordered on a high school mentality. I have not heard the call out of "man enough" since playground spats in middle school.


There are proper venues and forums that do however encourage and support this type of response.It is my hope that Paceline is not, nor is allowed to become, one of those types of venues.





That would be the old "Paceline" forum, before it became The Paceline. Bravo to the major players who created The Paceline, and also to the moderating staff here. :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

This is an example of what I was referring to when I posted earlier about shout-downs and in-group behavior. In this case the quoted poster here is rushing to the defense of a person he feels clearly indoctrinated to defend. As evidenced here, I was also not exaggerating when I proposed earlier that this in-group behaviour bordered on a high school mentality. I have not heard the call out of "man enough" since playground spats in middle school.


The post he refers to borders very closely on a personal attack and is contrary to forum rules and the user agreement. It's exactly what we seek to prevent here and fuzzalow has a good take on the behavior.

Please, guys, let's leave it at other forums and keep this place what we'd like it to be about--intelligent, civil conversation where everybody can air their views and disagreement can be tolerated. This is an interesting and informative thread. I'd hate to have to lock it. :no:

BBD

[fuzzalow]

This petty garbage makes this place insufferable.

Richard, like many here, are personal friends going back a decade.
The constant refrain of high school is wounded schtick and tiresome,
makes this place toxic.

Goodbye, good riddance.

-g

I regret that you read my exchange with you as petty garbage. I was attempting to have a serious conversation with you.

Your remark about friendships is perfectly fine. I can only say that any real friendship would not encourage or condone an aggressive and personally targeted attack on another forum member. Even if that response was well intentioned and responding to an offense made against your friend. IMO your response had none of these qualities and there was no provocation to have you respond in the way that you had.

I would prefer that you would choose to stay active to this forum and contribute in a positive manner.

[William]

Let's keep it civil folks.

I think its pretty clear to all who have participated in this thread that the builder in question has walked off with customer funds. This behavior is corroborated by more than one member and backed by other builders experiences in trying to help this particular builder try to work his way out of the hole he has dug for himself. Imo, this interaction on the forum will help others steer clear of this particular minefield.

Kudos to everyone involved who fleshed out this situation and shared their experiences. We're better off as a community when we can share openly and work together.






William

[rugbysecondrow]

Good post, Fuzzalow.

Rugby, I wouldn't eff with you if it came to moneys.

And, finally, I think there are still cats out there who haven't heard of Yelp.

I was a paperboy as a youth. I learned at a young age how to get my money from people. I am still surprised at the number of people who would TRY to cheat a 12 year old.

[Keith A]

All this childish stuff is going to get the thread locked, and folks will say "see, those threads are always locked to protect the guilty."Exactly! When the discussion changes from talking about the topic to talking about the people who are talking about the subject, then you know the end is near and the train is about to wreck.

[jlwdm]

Can you be (a whole lot) more specific on that? I (and probably many others, I would guess) have no idea what you are trying to say. :confused:

I started to write a brief specific reply but i do not want to add to this childish thread. Plus where do you stop and where do you end with this thread? I would hope a lot of posters would be embarrassd if they went back and read everything they have said in this thread.

Too many members just can't seem to let something end without getting the last say.

Jeff

[palincss]

this kind of thread is why i've just about given up on custom. am happy to buy used custom that fits, of course, but from this point forward, with 1 or maybe 2 exceptions, it's off-the-rack for me if new. i'm lucky i'm in the bell curve in terms of fit, so it's not much of an issue.

i know of more than a handful of heretofore worshipped builders and vendors who've just outright screwed their clients (including myself).

And there are plenty more who screw no one and do a wonderful job for their clients. I know many people who have had good experiences with custom builders; although I know from discussions like this that there are those who have been burned, I know none personally. Among the builders people have had good experiences with are: Tom Kellogg, Mitch Pryor, Dave Wages, David Kirk, Kelly Bedford, Boulder Bicycles, Waterford and Chris Bishop. I'm sure there are others I've accidentally forgotten who I know belong on this list. One other thing: most of the builders on this list make bikes the likes of which you will never find off-the-rack.

You are, of course, entitled to make your own choices.

[William]

And there are plenty more who screw no one and do a wonderful job for their clients. I know many people who have had good experiences with custom builders; although I know from discussions like this that there are those who have been burned, I know none personally. Among the builders people have had good experiences with are: Tom Kellogg, Mitch Pryor, Dave Wages, David Kirk, Kelly Bedford, Boulder Bicycles, Waterford and Chris Bishop. I'm sure there are others I've accidentally forgotten who I know belong on this list. One other thing: most of the builders on this list make bikes the likes of which you will never find off-the-rack.



Very true. The list of reputable builders is quite long.




William

[54ny77]

let me clarify: my own personal custom experiences thus far have been terrific.

i've got a della santa incoming (eventually, i'm in the queue) so as you can guess i have a decent idea of where to go for a (hopefully) headache-free experience.

i agree with you in everything you say below, and as i said in one of my posts (which you may have only glanced through quickly), there are a few custom builders i'd go to without blinking, 3 of which are in the list you mentioned. and i'll be on the wait list of 1 of 'em at some point relatively soon. the bucket list, as it were.

my comment about off-the-rack experiences are based on personal experience: a tarmac sl and parlee z4, and a soon-to-be-built caad. the former two have been terrific bikes (and the z4 experience so good i had the geo replicated for 2 of my custom builds, albeit with a minor twist). i'm in the middle of bell curve in fit & geo, so i don't have any complications/needs in that off-the-shelf regard.

And there are plenty more who screw no one and do a wonderful job for their clients. I know many people who have had good experiences with custom builders; although I know from discussions like this that there are those who have been burned, I know none personally. Among the builders people have had good experiences with are: Tom Kellogg, Mitch Pryor, Dave Wages, David Kirk, Kelly Bedford, Boulder Bicycles, Waterford and Chris Bishop. I'm sure there are others I've accidentally forgotten who I know belong on this list. One other thing: most of the builders on this list make bikes the likes of which you will never find off-the-rack.

You are, of course, entitled to make your own choices.

[jr59]

Very true. The list of reputable builders is quite long.




William

I agree with this in part. The trouble is, you can't ever tell when someone, (in this case a builder) will lose it, and totally flake. It's at best a gamble, and at worse a crapshoot. We are talking about a LONG lead time in a lot of cases, years in some cases, a lot of years in others. A lot can change in that time, and you will never know. You hope it will work out, you try to do the research, but the simple fact remains that you can not know 100% that you will get a frame that you ordered. It's a leap of faith. This coming from someone that has 4 custom with one in the works. Most have turned out well, with some not so much. And I did the research. It's just the breaks, and you have very little recourse other than going to the builder and taking it out of his hide. (not a good idea, but one I have thought of).

IMO; There is no way to KNOW. This last time I placed an order, I looked at the $$$ and thought, Man, I hope I get a bike I like, but if I don't I'll just write it off as a loss and go about my life. Also, after this one, I'm done, never again will I put myself thru this. I'm not saying anything about the builders that have built me very nice bike and delivered them on time. And I trust who I gave my money to. But I am very tired of the worry it creates inside my head. I think I'll go to the used market instead. At least the cost isn't as great and I'll know within a week or two, if I like it or not.

Also, I'm sorry I asked Mr Wages a what I thought was reasonable question. It seemed to have created a tempest in a teapot. Can someone answer the question of how do you know? How can you be sure?

[yngpunk]

Can someone answer the question of how do you know? How can you be sure?

Short answer is that you can't know with 100% certainty, whether it comes to your custom bicycle or whatever. What you can do is try to mitigate your risks to a level of uncertainty that you're comfortable and willing to live with and only you can decide what that comfort level is. If you aren't comfortable with that X% of uncertainty, then maybe the reward isn't worth the risk, and there are other options

[druptight]

Also, I'm sorry I asked Mr Wages a what I thought was reasonable question. It seemed to have created a tempest in a teapot. Can someone answer the question of how do you know? How can you be sure?

I think you answered your own question a paragraph up, when you said IMO there is no way to know. You're dealing with humans here. You do your research and you put your money down, and when you do that you're taking a gamble. Hopefully it's a gamble with really, really good odds based on your research. Talk to the builder about insurance. Hedge your bets. At the end of the day, no one in this thread or anywhere else is going to answer this question for you definitively. It's up to you personally (which you obviously know as you're on your 5th custom bike) whether the risk, however small or large, is worth the reward at the end.

Edit: Posted before I saw yngpunk's response. Great minds think alike.

[SamIAm]

Also, I'm sorry I asked Mr Wages a what I thought was reasonable question.

Unless I missed something, you asked Mr. Greene a question, not Mr. Wages.

[jr59]

Ok Dave; How do you tell a good one from a less than good one.

Of course you use the search engine of your choise, google, yahoo, bing.
The point is nobody can make everyone happy. Everybody has upset someone and not been perfect at everything. Where do you draw the line?
One bad report, two....? how many go unreported? How many get shouted down as a bad customer? The latter seems to happen all to often. I know, it's happened to me. I took the POS frame, and the semi-stock frame I had and built them up cheap and gave them away for a charity auction. Yet when someone asks about the builder, if I say something bad, or link another, on the forums, you seem to be shouted down. I saw the bad report before I contacted the builder. But i also saw where almost everyone said it was a bad customer. Well it happened to me as well. So I will ask you; How do you tell? All are good on the phone, and quick to help until they get your money.

Please DO NOT take this as personal. I don't mean it that way at all. You have always been more than good by me. And most all the other builders I have dealt with are as well, but how do you know? Where is the line? And when do we forgive one that has had problems?

It's a question I have wanted to ask for some time. I know it's a case by case deal and all people are not the same. But the questions are still the same.

Sorry if I have offended you or any other that build bikes for a living. Just wanted someone I respected opinion.

It started here^^


Unless I missed something, you asked Mr. Greene a question, not Mr. Wages.

What J. Greene posted was just rubbish on how to answer the above question. But there again, that is only my opinion.

To the other people; Yes with the way the custom frame buss model is set right now; The question would be rhetorical.

[AngryScientist]

It started here^^

.

well,

just to keep the record straight, you were responding to david kirk there, not wages.

[jr59]

well,

just to keep the record straight, you were responding to david kirk there, not wages.

Dang... I stand corrected. Sorry Mr Wages!!!!

[David Kirk]

Dang... I stand corrected. Sorry Mr Wages!!!!

We are both tall and dorky and skinny - I've been confused with worse!!

dave

[ergott]

So I will ask you; How should one guess on who to trust and who might flake at any time?

I know you've asked this a few times so I'll take a stab at it.

If you really want to be sure, stick with the biggest names in the business for the highest level of comfort.

You have names like Waterford that make custom bikes, they've been around for decades and have proven to make excellent bikes. Look at Independent Fabrications and Serotta. They are larger than one man shops, but they sure can deliver quality. They usually have a more predictable timetable for delivering frames.

[Ken Robb]

I was a paperboy as a youth. I learned at a young age how to get my money from people. I am still surprised at the number of people who would TRY to cheat a 12 year old.

I had so many slow-pays and no-pays I gave up my route after a few months for a job paying $.50 an hour. Back then the delivery kid had to pay cash for his newspapers and only made money after he collected from the customers. If a few customers stiffed him he had worked for nothing.

The thing that really irked me was the paper would not let us drop the deadbeats because they wanted to keep the circulation number as high as possible.

[christian]

This is an example of what I was referring to when I posted earlier about shout-downs and in-group behavior. In this case the quoted poster here is rushing to the defense of a person he feels clearly indoctrinated to defend. As evidenced here, I was also not exaggerating when I proposed earlier that this in-group behaviour bordered on a high school mentality. I have not heard the call out of "man enough" since playground spats in middle school.

Please keep this type of inculcated, sycophantic behaviour out of this forum, there is no place for it in having intelligent conversation between adults. Worse still, the atmosphere of brow beating imparted by this type of blather is oppressive.

There are proper venues and forums that do however encourage and support this type of response. It is my hope that Paceline is not, nor is allowed to become, one of those types of venues.
Instead of spending your post ascribing motivations to Grant, why don't you:
1) Demonstrate how Richard's comment in that post was at all directed to Paul.
2) Evidence how paraphrasing conversations selectively is better than quoting text complete.
3) Demonstrate how in business transactions, categorically, it is never true that stories are sometimes stories.

While based on my prior experiences, I'd probably shy away from ordering another custom from someone I didn't have a long history with or who was a long-standing builder of known quality, I don't think the idea that sometimes, customers are less than 100% truthful and forthcoming about their culpability in "things going awry" is far fetched.

This isn't the case in situations of non-delivery or fraud, obviously; more like, "I asked the frame builder for a horse, provided specific direction I wanted a camel, and now I'm pissed it's not a unicorn." I think that happens more often than you think in items with a high dollar amount and significant emotional energy involved. In those cases, yes, perhaps the framebuilder could have been more clear about their expectations, but it goes both ways.

[Aaron O]

Very clearly a situation where someone hasn't returned cash and hasn't delivered on his deliverable is pretty black and white. The only question is whether the negligence rises to fraud, and I think it does.

I think most situations with an unhappy customer arise from differences in how the customer thinks about his ideal fit and size and how the builder thinks about it. When i purchased my Marnati, I had traditionally ridden smaller bikes than he suggested. We agreed to split the difference on the sizing, and then he ignored me and gave me the bike at his original size. What did I learn? That Daniele Marnati knows more about size and fit than I do - it's the most comfortable bike I've ever been on, but it also took me a bit to get used to.

My view is that an experienced builder knows more than me...Mr. Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg, etc. all know a lot more about how to make a great riding bike than me, and when I get a custom, I went their experience, not my own. That said, the finished product might not be what you're used to, or want. There's no test ride beforehand to see how it goes. That situation is bound to lead to more grey and possible misunderstandings. What I'm trying to get across is that something like a bike's "ride" is subjective, and it's easy to see how a builder and customer might have different, but valid, points of view.

The situation with Taylor doesn't sound like a misunderstanding, it strikes me as a guy in over his head and who can't dig out.

[gemship]

I started to write a brief specific reply but i do not want to add to this childish thread. Plus where do you stop and where do you end with this thread? I would hope a lot of posters would be embarrassd if they went back and read everything they have said in this thread.

Too many members just can't seem to let something end without getting the last say.

Jeff

+1 Weather is getting nice now so I do spend a little less time reading this forums postings. Also I started working full time two months ago and although I would get on the forum regularly I really didn't have the energy to login and post, reply to a quote. Sometimes it's best to just not have an opinion but I do often wonder if people feel guilt being so brash with their responses on here. I do at times and that is another reason I just post less and less.


but I do get a kick out of some of the post I read here, by some folks with high post counts as well as some on their way to that. Just some really oddball stuff, I mean we have some real bike geeks here but the level of maturity or those that feel the need to get that last word in, oh boy...

[jghall]

Glad to hear you are moving on Bryan. Pretty much came to that same conclusion a while back myself. I quite trying to reach Paul and until now, had mostly forgotten about the money I lost.

Though as we have discussed a few times, it is hard pill to swallow. Above and beyond the principle of the matter, there is not a money tree sitting in my front yard.

I'll echo some of the others, I would not hesitate to purchase anything from Carl and many of the other builders who frequent this site. I was one of those who reached out to Carl for some assistance, and he was extremely gracious.

As they say, hopefully I have lived and learned.

[J.Greene]

It started here^^




What J. Greene posted was just rubbish on how to answer the above question. But there again, that is only my opinion. .


Contrary to your declaraions you really are trying to make this personal. I'd love to bite, but Im done. You've fully occupied both lanes of the low road. congrats.

[rugbysecondrow]

I had so many slow-pays and no-pays I gave up my route after a few months for a job paying $.50 an hour. Back then the delivery kid had to pay cash for his newspapers and only made money after he collected from the customers. If a few customers stiffed him he had worked for nothing.

The thing that really irked me was the paper would not let us drop the deadbeats because they wanted to keep the circulation number as high as possible.

This is how it worked when I was a paper boy as well. I kept my route for 2-3 years and learned how to manage the deadbeats. No pay, no paper. I occasionally received complaints at the newspaper company, but I explained to them that I paid for the paper so until somebody bought it from me, it was mine to control. The newspaper got their money, so let me manage my route how I see fit. I would then stop delivering to the deadbeats and instead give the paper to somebody who wasn't a current customer. After a few days I would pay both households a visits. The first home I would ask how they liked the free paper on my dime and if they would like to sign up. I would have the form filled out and ready for them to sign. The second home I would ask if they missed the paper and if they would like to cancel their subscription, I would then hand them the form which I had already signed. It often worked out where I would keep the deadbeat home and add a new household. That was one of the tricks.

[yngpunk]

This is how it worked when I was a paper boy as well. I kept my route for 2-3 years and learned how to manage the deadbeats. No pay, no paper. I occasionally received complaints at the newspaper company, but I explained to them that I paid for the paper so until somebody bought it from me, it was mine to control. The newspaper got their money, so let me manage my route how I see fit. I would then stop delivering to the deadbeats and instead give the paper to somebody who wasn't a current customer. After a few days I would pay both households a visits. The first home I would ask how they liked the free paper on my dime and if they would like to sign up. I would have the form filled out and ready for them to sign. The second home I would ask if they missed the paper and if they would like to cancel their subscription, I would then hand them the form which I had already signed. It often worked out where I would keep the deadbeat home and add a new household. That was one of the tricks.

Note to self...don't buy anything from Paul, else you'd end up with more stuff than you thought you needed...this stem, seatpost, wheels, panniers, and lawn mower would go really well with that frame I just sold you :)

[fuzzalow]

Instead of spending your post ascribing motivations to Grant, why don't you:
1) Demonstrate how Richard's comment in that post was at all directed to Paul.
2) Evidence how paraphrasing conversations selectively is better than quoting text complete.
3) Demonstrate how in business transactions, categorically, it is never true that stories are sometimes stories.

I am responding to this only because you directly quoted my post. I wish not to be rude to you by the appearance of ignoring you.

No, sorry christian, can't and won't answer. You are welcome to add to the discussion here but that topic doesn't include your list of questions involving hypotheticals and cross examinations targeted to me.

As I had remarked before about the nature of our encounters: From a disagreement to disagreeable is but a step. Napoleon would be turning over in his grave were he to hear that hack.

Be well.

[uno-speedo]

I remember meeting Paul at the first San Diego bike show, seemed like a genuine guy, but sucks to hear this.

His wife was smoking hot.

Anyway, carry on.

[slidey]

I don't wish to take sides here, but both you and jr59 have valid points really. Let me tell you what you already know, and try to communicate to you the gist of what jr and rugby were in different ways trying to communicate to this thread - every reputed builder today was at one point of time a newbie trying to find their foothold in the market. Stick to your guns and philosophy, and with some amount of luck you'll make it.

Now it is also true that very few, if any, make light of the fact that they're unhappy with their custom frame. Consider the economical fallout of doing so with this hypothetical example: Lets say I got a custom bike made for myself by a famous custom builder. Aided by various yet necessary oohs and aahs of the trade (pics of welds, pics of dropouts, and in general all manner of instagramming the heck out of a nude frame, and hundreds of fanboy/girl comments) my expectations from the frame that I'm yet to ride has already been pushed to a 130/100. When I do ride it, its no better than my MX Leader which cost me 1/10 of the price, and 0 wait time...so its safe to say that I'm disappointed. To add to this, the frame delivered to me is labeled custom i.e. suitable only to my geometry. Why would I ever let it be known that this frame isn't something I care about, and bust the folklore that people build around the builder's work isn't true for everyone? I'm selfish, and so I'll hedge myself behind the 'not right for me, but excellent workmanship' clause, and proceed to minimize my losses by passing it on to someone else who would like to experience the custom bubble at a slightly reduced price, which incidentally is almost always twice as much as the price of the comparable stock frame.

There is nothing wrong with the above practice. However the key is for everyone in the loop to realise that the word 'custom' implies just that. It isn't for everyone, and not everyone needs a custom. There are those of us who genuinely lie on the far ends of the bell curve as regards our ranges of motion which is limited by anatomical differences from the idealistically popularised one, or some form of surgery but would still like to ride. The price for being able to ride again on a tweaked geometry is something that a number can't really quantify but in the interest of maintaining their business there is some sort of economical balance here. It is my take that for most other cases, a custom is merely a luxury and once people realise that they don't wish to burst the custom myth for fear of damaging one's own economical interests.

Disclosure: I don't own any custom frame for lack of many things - an unusual posture or range of motion, a need for more comfort than I already have, being unhappy with existing bikes, money. I'm also not in the least dissing any custom builders at all...I'm only saying that I don't need custom...and putting forth the argument that if indeed everyone needed custom (despite what we're led to believe by extension that we're all unique), then there wouldn't ever exist a stock geometry.

Contrary to your declaraions you really are trying to make this personal. I'd love to bite, but Im done. You've fully occupied both lanes of the low road. congrats.

[Aaron O]

I think slidey is, as usual, on point, but I also think that there's something nice about getting the frame exactly to your spec - your choice of style, braze ons, paint, etc. My Marnati is an expression of my preferences, with builder input. Everything about the frame is what I think makes a bike beautiful and/or useful. There is no compromise. There also just aren't many beautifully crafted lug steel production bikes - and the ones that exist aren't much cheaper than most customer builders.

[54ny77]

getting a custom bike is a lot like choosing a mate.

could be great.

could also be a nightmare.

:banana:

[malcolm]

this kind of thread is why i've just about given up on custom. am happy to buy used custom that fits, of course, but from this point forward, with 1 or maybe 2 exceptions, it's off-the-rack for me if new. i'm lucky i'm in the bell curve in terms of fit, so it's not much of an issue.

i know of more than a handful of heretofore worshipped builders and vendors who've just outright screwed their clients (including myself). and their fanboys, as the term is often used, continue to deny. well, unless you're in a screwed client's shoes, then your opinion is as valuable, or as worthless, as anyone else's. i once recommended a builder who i personally am a huge fan of (i own 3 of his bikes), and the experience for the new buyer was very unpleasant. i felt so bad that if the frame fit, i'd have bought it out of guilt. but, it didn't fit and it was a situation where the buyer rode it anyway (and with respect to buying it, he said he's a big boy & can deal with it) and i guess (hope, really) he's ok with it by now. all that said, the patina of bad experience mutes what should be joy & a fun process. i also recommended a different builder that was such a disaster it blows my mind he's still actually in biz. so many of these clowns are borderline ponzi-like builders--paycheck to paycheck, deposits for future stuff covering current bills.

i'll never, ever recommend a custom bike experience for someone other than the usual 2-3 long time reputable builders who've been at their craft longer than many builders have been alive. i've referred several folks/friends lookin' for rigs to off-the-rack models from parlee, cannondale or specialized. they work. they can be walked out of store. if there's an issue, you go back to store and hand it over the counter for issue fixin'. no bro handshake, no maybe you'll get it when you get it, no well gosh the guy had a brutal hangnail and is now severely depressed and can't pick up a torch. instead with a off rack bike, if there's a major issue, call up credit card company and dispute it. presto, done.

I have nothing against off the rack bikes, but giving up on custom because a few builders were/are less than reputable is like giving up on off the rack because you've heard a few of them broke.

I don't think it's that hard the forum and google and you should be able to make a good informed decision.

As an aside I've personally done business with Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg and Zanc and in all accounts it was seemless.

Grant, I often don't agree with, not on bike stuff, but social/political stuff but he has never been short of helpful and it would be disheartening to lose his input as a result of bickering.

Richard Sachs may occasionally seem to be speaking in code but again a wealth of knowledge always helpful and I can't imagine he would ever support someone that he was convinced was unethical.

And last a big thumbs up to Carl Strong for attempting to right a man that had fallen and only gave up when it was clear he couldn't be helped.

Buy custom bikes it keeps craftsmen that love your sport/hobby feeding their families and makes it all more interesting.

[54ny77]

i think y'all missed the part where i said "with 1 or 2 exceptions..."

:)

I have nothing against off the rack bikes, but giving up on custom because a few builders were/are less than reputable is like giving up on off the rack because you've heard a few of them broke.

I don't think it's that hard the forum and google and you should be able to make a good informed decision.

As an aside I've personally done business with Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg and Zanc and in all accounts it was seemless.

Grant, I often don't agree with, not on bike stuff, but social/political stuff but he has never been short of helpful and it would be disheartening to lose his input as a result of bickering.

Richard Sachs may occasionally seem to be speaking in code but again a wealth of knowledge always helpful and I can't imagine he would ever support someone that he was convinced was unethical.

And last a big thumbs up to Carl Strong for attempting to right a man that had fallen and only gave up when it was clear he couldn't be helped.

Buy custom bikes it keeps craftsmen that love your sport/hobby feeding their families and makes it all more interesting.

[slidey]

Oh yes, definitely...the uniqueness + the feeling of being involved in the process is a huge addition that the stock market can't ever fulfill. Personally, I'm at a point where being motivated by student stipend, my needs are very functional...but, as time goes by and as resources hopefully become more plentiful I too might be swayed by the prospect of experiencing the uniqueness factor.

I think slidey is, as usual, on point, but I also think that there's something nice about getting the frame exactly to your spec - your choice of style, braze ons, paint, etc. My Marnati is an expression of my preferences, with builder input. Everything about the frame is what I think makes a bike beautiful and/or useful. There is no compromise. There also just aren't many beautifully crafted lug steel production bikes - and the ones that exist aren't much cheaper than most customer builders.

Also, I notice I swayed the direction of the thread slightly off-course...so apologies for that.

[malcolm]

i think y'all missed the part where i said "with 1 or 2 exceptions..."

:)

Actually I didn't I wasn't really calling you out but was responding to the I'll never ever recommend custom. Just seemed extreme to me, but hey different strokes.

[fiamme red]

getting a custom bike is a lot like choosing a mate.

could be great.

could also be a nightmare.

:banana:But fortunately you can usually sell a custom bike. And you don't have to pay alimony. :)

[firerescuefin]

i think y'all missed the part where i said "with 1 or 2 exceptions..."

:)

1 or 2...cmon now

Based on experiences here....Kirk, IF, Firefly, Sachs, Zanc, Ellis, Bedford, Strong, Ericksen, Gaulzetti, (know I am leaving out others...sorry in advance)...are guys that I haven't heard a sniff of bad dealings with.

[fuzzalow]

I count myself to stand with some of the biggest fans and proponents of custom builders anywhere in cycling. Better to support the work from the hands of a builder than product manufactured from a mold. It is disheartening to hear about people losing deposit money to incompetent builders for any reason. But I would like to not allow the image of custom builders to be unfairly portrayed as one of unhedgeable risk and uncertain outcome. The real picture is always somewhere in between.

The biggest risk comes as an inevitable spill over in the growth of the custom bicycle industry. There are many new entrant bicycle businesses, most who will fail in their first couple of years of operation – no different than any other fledgling small business startup. And the arithmetic of many new entrants to the field corresponds to a greater numeric casualty in builders. This is also a natural consequence as the undeniably of the percentage scythes through the field. No doubt there will be collateral damage to clients that had committed deposits for bikes never to be conceived much less built. This reality must be factored into a clients risk assessment and it often is not - because bikes are an emotion and passion driven purchase.

As long as you know this going in and do some homework, I truly believe that the purchase of a custom bike is a manageable risk. Meaning from no risk whatsoever in the form of custom shops like IndyFab to further along the continuum to the bottom where the builders with the least longevity and highest survivability exposure currently subsist. The client gets to choose with whom to place the order deposit and with that money paid, assume some of the risk. Risk being a entity that exists either as an abstract (IndyFab, etc) or as a very real potential total loss (any newer builder). Too bad that this may bias against the newer builders but it is the business reality for them to surmount and assuage to the satisfaction of their clients. In fairness to builders, usually the deposit amount is a small fraction of the total bike cost, so the client exposure is not profound. Should a new builder require 50%, that might require further investigation. Caveat emptor. Also, decades long established builders are not that hard to find so there needs to some compelling reason to assume high risk. Know that risk and why you are taking it.

Nothing in life is guaranteed. There is manageable risk in buying a custom bike. Do not be afraid, that is only a response that should initiate some more research to get a handle on that piece of the unknown. Then you can move forwards, informed to the best of your ability and cognizant of the risks. It will turn out all right. Be smart. Good luck.

[fuzzalow]

One thing I forgot, it never hurts to ask.

There are members of this forum that have been enthusiasts and serious cyclists all their lives. They have been to many a custom bike rodeo. It does not take away from you own custom bike experience to get some friendly advice. Asking here would be an excellent place to start.

[cnighbor1]

enough of the were is Paul taylor on paceline. Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!
Charles Nighbor

[gdw]

"Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!"

Have you even read this thread? How do you suggest they contact him?

[93legendti]

"Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!"

Have you even read this thread? How do you suggest they contact him?

+1.

It's a psa at this point so other forumites don't get suckered/burned.

If someone is tired of the topic, I hope they never get burned by a builder and turn to the forum for help...

[weaponsgrade]

You ask a very good and difficult to answer question and to be frank I don't have a solid answer to it.

How many 'strikes' make for an out in this biz? I don't know. No builder, myself included, has a 100% success rate so that all clients are perfectly happy and it would seem a shame to take the builder's name off the list because of a single bad report. But is two too many? Three? Again I don't know. I think the type of 'bad report' is subjective but important.

Seeing as no one (builder or client) is perfect we obviously need to cut at least a bit of slack here. I know that when I screw up I do my utmost to make the client happy and I think all of the good guys operate this way. So in a way it feels like it's not the fact that a mistake has been made that is the most important part here but how the builder deals with it after the fact that is.

But this is getting into the weeds just a bit I think. I recently sent out a frameset that had a very sweet paint job that wasn't exactly as requested. Wires and signals got crossed and while the paint was sweet it wasn't 'right'. The client has the bike now and will ride it this summer and send it back for a free repaint in the fall to be sure it's 100% right for him. This is how it should work IMO. Could this guy go online and say I effed up and should not be trusted? I suppose so. But all this said the mis-paint is a totally different deal that taking someone's money and disappearing. I would not confuse these two types of things.

So if you search and see that the builder has a reputation of being late with delivery by a month or two but has been reachable and in contact (not good but not a crime IMO) that is one thing.....if on the other hand the reports are that he took my money and won't return my calls that is another. Both are 'negative' feedback but one shows that the builder is human and the other shows that the builder is a crook. Two entirely different deals.

I think in the end that the client needs to weigh the search results and see what they are comfortable with. Ask others directly online how it went for them with a given builder and be open to what they are saying even if you are emotionally invested and really WANT that bike.

Lastly - I don't know what the deal with people being 'shouted down' is all about. I cringe whenever it happens and see a closed thread on a forum because one of the 'chosen ones' is being talked about in a negative way. I wish it could all be more transparent and less protective. That said I can understand at times why it is - to just err on the side of caution I think. Over the years I've had hundreds of customers and 99.9% of them are super cool. But a few have been real aceholes. It's bound to happen - put enough people in a room and someone will be an ace. The problem with the web is that it is anonymous and near impossible to tell a person who really did get the ***** end of the stick or is a wackjob who could never be made happy. So I think that some builders will always side with other builders and shut down threads and shout down folks that have less than positive things to say. I wish this censorship and pressure didn't happen and I do my best to stay far from it. And the easiest way, as a builder, to not be involved is to make happy customers and to stay away from the other builders who shout folks down.

Thanks again for the question - I do not take offense in the slightest and think it's a question that I wish I had a full answer to.

Thanks again,

dave

thanks for putting this out dave

[krhea]

enough of the were is Paul taylor on paceline. Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!
Charles Nighbor

Cnighbor1 aka Charles,

I've kept quiet throughout this thread wondering when the Taylor "posse" was going to rear it's ugly head and finally here it comes.
You've been one of the guys supporting Taylor throughout his "ripoff" run of because you've never had a problem with the guy. You and a couple others on this forum continually tell everyone else to "let it rest", find your own way of contacting him, his a great guy blah blah blah while many many people both on this forum and off including former employers of his as well as shops he's been involved with have been completely taken, fooled and lied to by the guy. I don't get it. I've received PMs from forum members getting in my face about comments I've made regarding not recommending Taylor and it's funny how there are only 3 people who know the facts of my ordeal, my wife, Taylor and myself, however, some guys still think his s_ _ t doesn't stink. But it does. I've also had guys email/PM asking for my opinion on placing an order or working with him and to all of them I've been 100% honest and mentioned there were probably 100s of better choices for a custom frame.

If you don't have a horse in the race Charles then stay out of it. Great, he's your buddy. Great, he built you bikes. Great, he didn't rip you off. Un-great, he ripped off a lot of my friends and tried the same with me, but you know what I did Charles, I got into my Honda Element and began driving from Portland to Nevada to confront the guy in person! That's what I did because I wasn't gonna let the guy rip me off and all I have is "time" and I don't mind a drive, especially when it comes to my money. Not many were as lucky or forceful as I was. He also tried to rip off my best riding buddy at the time, after being late by months and months with no communication then numerous lies including saying the frame had been built twice and then lost twice[I] in shipping he finally sent my friend his refund after receiving, let's just say, "some official looking paperwork..." pronto. From information on this forum and elsewhere, it's clear he was one of very few to get his money back.
As this saga has gone forward Taylor has also threatened numerous people with libel suits for slandering his "good" name, c'mon. What I went through to finally get my frame was an abomination. I have two of his frames, one ordered through a shop which dropped him I later found out because of their ordeal with getting my frame and another I ordered direct which began my personal ordeal. Had I known what the shop had dealt with I would of never ordered our tandem from him. Hindsight is 20/20. I think I also, unfortunately, gave the guy some props before knowing what was up and becoming a potential "victim". Yes I feel stupid now.

To the new builders out there, it's simple. Treat every single customer the way you expect to be treated. If you enjoy being lied to, if you enjoy being "half-listened" to, if you don't mind receiving information with little basis of fact and if you have no problem making a down payment on something and then never receiving that "something" great, run your business that way and you won't have a business very long.
Simply be honest, communicate clearly, concisely and in a timely fashion. Here's another tip, all of us are like little kids on Christmas morning when it comes to a new frame, we're all excited, impatient and over stimulated. Do yourself a favor, if your think you can build the guy a frame in 3months tell him 4 months, deliver it a bit early and give yourself some cushion for "shat to happen". I'll tell you this, the first time you quote a customer 5 months and deliver in 4.5months this forum will light up for sure with good comments. Quote a person 6 months and then deliver in 8 or 9 and your name probably won't get mentioned and if it does it most likely will not be good...unless, you've communicated regularly with said customer and you're both on the same page about the tardiness of the build. Heck, knock 5% off the final price as a goodwill gesture for being late and your "star" will shine even brighter. Work to make your "word" as good as your welds, your customer service second to none and folks will buy your frames and recommend your work, including here on the forum.

So please Charles, if Paul is a friend of yours great, keep it to yourself and don't make it sound like those who have been ripped off or have had horrible dealings with the guy are whining and complaining, they're not, they're pissed off is what they are and I feel for all of them. All of us only wish it was as easy as you make it out to be, "just contact the guy", really Charles, [I]just contact him, gee thanks bud, none of us realized it was that easy to just [B]contact him.

Buying a custom frame is a "bucket list" item for 100s of riders. The vast majority of them only get one chance at a custom build. Lot's of them worked their asses off to be in the position to make the purchase and most of them had heard from "us" how great it is, how cool it is, how special it is. To then be ripped off is a kick in the nads. You feel like that air is never gonna come back into your gut. You're shocked and think, how could this happen, but it did. Thank god for builders like Sachs, Kirk, Strong, Vanilla, Firefly, Lobster, Wanta, Ti-Cycles, Hampsten, Calfee, Winter, KISH and on and on and on. The good guy list is a very very long one in the world of custom builders both seasoned vets as well as new builders. Thanks to all the good guys, may your businesses prosper.

And to the OP, poppawheelie, good decision on your part dude to take the loss and walk away. Sometimes when I look at my bike I still think, was it worth the effort...and I'm not sure it was. Now when I see or ride the bike I invariably remember all the crap I went through to get it. Allow karma to do it's work. Karma is always on the case, never rests and certainly doesn't forget. Good 'ol karma.

[Anarchist]

enough of the were is Paul taylor on paceline. Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!
Charles Nighbor

Having read through all of this, it would seem that the underlying issue is that people do not know how to contact him.

Have I missed something?

[akelman]

Have I missed something?

Yes.

[I Want Sachs?]

Having read through all of this, it would seem that the underlying issue is that people do not know how to contact him.

Have I missed something?

Yes. The underlying issue is character, not how people are trying to reach him. Carl Strong has gone out of his way and tried to help a fellow builder out, and that did not turn the character around.

[krhea]

Yes. The underlying issue is character, not how people are trying to reach him. Carl Strong has gone out of his way and tried to help a fellow builder out, and that did not turn the character around.

This

[T.J.]

Post a PSA about the experiences people had trying to buy a frame. Title it Read Before Buying A Taylor Frame. Make it a sticky and lock this sucker down

[FlashUNC]

It ain't rocket science. If you have a shred of doubt about the builder after 10 minutes of Googling, don't send him or her your deposit.

Lord knows there's enough upstanding, awesome people out there building bikes that wasting time with "Well, maybe I'll get this guy on a good day" ain't worth the headaches.

[William]

Allow karma to do it's work. Karma is always on the case, never rests and certainly doesn't forget. Good 'ol karma.









http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sQNORZsGsxQ/Tz2xPfljN0I/AAAAAAAAAA0/fr91B8Y7RZA/s640/11954220411982838432liftarn_Sign_language_D_finger _pointing.svg.hi.png







William

[PoppaWheelie]

enough of the were is Paul taylor on paceline. Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!
Charles Nighbor

Charles, it's great that he recently built a frame for you. I'm genuinely happy you're not one of the many people to have been ripped off. Please don't tell me though not to make a stink about the fact that he's stolen my money.

[e-RICHIE]

I saw my site visits go up last night and this morning when folks clicked through my signature. The hits went to Fuzzalow's reply to someone about something, and a post of mine was the culprit. He linked it in his text. And then folks landed on my Atmo bis page. What's not to love about this Internet thing?

I have been on the road for 16 hours and before I left I asked the mods who he (Fuzzalow) was because I am not comfortable having conversations with strangers - or I should say, I'm not comfortable having this conversation with folks I don't know, or with whom I have nothing invested in or with. The original thread here was from 2010. My post was an agreement to Dave whose words I quoted in reply. That's all I remember. There's nothing I can add to these 5 pages that hasn't been written. But so what? Here -

I feel for the clients that Paul left in his wake. And I feel for Paul too because I cannot imagine his business went according to plan. Regardless of the issue, no one likes to fail, especially in plain view. I feel for Maietta, and Curt, and Brent, and Jonny, and that cat in Austin whose name I forget, and I feel for all the folks who had expectations that were not met. What else can you say?

Some folks fail because they are bad business owners. Some fail due to ineptitude at the bench. Some fail because the remuneration sucks compared to the labor involved. Some fail because can't take the heat. And some who fail did so because life got in the way and wreaked havoc with their best laid plans, and then couldn't handle it or process it. How they deal any of this is what makes or breaks them. Some get to the other side, and some run away.

All the folks in trade with whom I am close try to help cats who are starting. That's a natural reaction; we were all new once, and we were helped. But for many of the Y2K and NAHBS era guys, it's an uphill swim. Most won't accept that they know precious little, and have produced even less, and should never be in business - yet. But we still help them. And even if (or when) they fail in plain view, it's sad, and I for one, feel for them. And for the clients.

The legal side of it is another matter. If you don't get your commission filled, and if the maker has gone missing, and you have lost a deposit, by all means tell your story. Re Paul and this discussion about his brand, I can't imagine walking a mile in his shoes and hope I never do. I wouldn't want to be the jilted client here either.

A professional framebuilder has an obligation to hold a deposit until the commission is delivered. After that time, it's his money. Before that, it's a reservation for a period that reflects an amount of time that two people have agreed upon. It's not money to use, to spend, to invest - or similar. It's a placeholder, not income. And for the all the time that the effbuilder has the money, it belongs to the client until he delivers something. Sadly, very few folks understand this and practice it. On some levels, if the client uses the maker's time, either by dropping in, engaging him on the phone, or clogging the inbox during the wait period, some tradesmen think it's reasonable to look at the amount being held and consider that some of it should be used to offset the hand-holding these clients require. There are no hard and fast rules. No play book. No app. Each of us is different. I don't look at an order form until it's almost ready to execute. Until then there is a line in a book with someone's name on it. My time goes to the fellow whose frame I am making now. It's been like that for decades - it's not some new policy. We all work differently. This is how I do it. Anyway -

Paul is not Tony who isn't CPG and none of these guys are Brent or Jonny. And none of the aforementioned men are me, and none are the trade or representative of it. The stories that follow any of us around are a result of our own actions as well as those who have commissioned us.

PS Click on my Atmo bis link in my signature, drive the sitemeter up, and read some entries. Hey - thanks atmo.

[Keith A]

enough of the were is Paul taylor on paceline. Please use other means to contact him. this is getting very old news!!!
Charles NighborEven if someone did want to contact him, how is this possible. There is no contact information on his Facebook, Blogspot or MySpace. I did a search on Yellow Pages, still no contact information. If he's wanting people to contact him, he certainly doesn't make it very easy to do so.

[retrogrouchy]

IMO, the most important issue that has been raised and discussed in this thread (in a fairly civil fashion, generally, I might add), is the Omerta. I'm glad to see that discussion was able to occur, and that it wasn't shouted down or 'locked down.' Thanks to all that participated in that aspect of the discourse.

[firerescuefin]

Kevin and Atmo...very well put.

[rugbysecondrow]

IMO, the most important issue that has been raised and discussed in this thread (in a fairly civil fashion, generally, I might add), is the Omerta. I'm glad to see that discussion was able to occur, and that it wasn't shouted down or 'locked down.' Thanks to all that participated in that aspect of the discourse.


Agreed. It is a welcomed development IMO.

I am glad I didn't let the one bad experience with Taylor (which was my first by the way) ruin the subsequent three great experiences I have had with Bedford.

[Ahneida Ride]

Its a big swimming pool and and turds are rare ...

Is it better to have a small section of the pool designated for turd deposits?

or a turd free pool ?

;)

[pbarry]

Agreed. It is a welcomed development IMO.

I am glad I didn't let the one bad experience with Taylor (which was my first by the way) ruin the subsequent three great experiences I have had with Bedford.

This ^ is the ironic part of situations like these. If one delivers a good product, it leads to repeat business.

[palincss]

I've got no problem with threads outing "problem" builders, both outright frauds who have been ripping would-be customers off for a long time, and well-meaning folks who've lost control of things. But once they veer off into damning all frame builders by association that's just not right.

Getting a custom frame not a matter of "taking a risk," especially when those who call it that aren't quantifying the risk; that makes it sound like a dangerous gamble when in fact most builders do a good job and repeatably produce high quality results.

But there are some things customers can do to increase the odds of their satisfaction. Don't ask for off-the-wall wacky stuff. Figure out what you want and find a builder who is about the sort of bike you want and has already figured out how to make it. For example, don't go to a guy who is all about racing bikes for a loaded touring bike. Even with the best of intentions, that will never end well.

Back in the day, custom builders like Jack Taylor and Rene Herse listed specific models, for example: http://classicrendezvous.com/images/French/Herse/Rene_Herse_1980s/herse1.html and http://www.blackbirdsf.org/taylor/models.html. Although these were made to order, sized to fit the customer, often outfitted to suit, the geometry, tubing etc. were all worked out and you could count on appropriate, repeatable results. Some will argue bikes like this aren't "truly custom," they should be called "semi-custom," that the "true custom" has to start with a completely blank sheet of paper. Others might well say starting with a blank sheet of paper every time will always end up with a prototype.

[TeamSwami.com]

A couple of years ago I fell for the $1300 build anything deal. As painful and time consuming as it was, I did manage to get a stainless lugged steel single speed road frame albeit very late and with issues. The frame went back in the box and never built as there is a very odd seatube inner diameter on it that I have not been able to get a seatpost or shim (curved TT/ST lug so not not just a Problem Solver shim fix). Paul went dark after a few communications regaging the issues. I suppose I could get a builder to fabricate a shim but I'm unsure as to how willing a builder would be to work on this for me. I would have loved to have sold it but could not with good conscience and of course it's probably all but worthless to anyone but those who don't know Taylor.

Any Philly area builders that would be willing to make a custom shim?

[tch]

...which is this. There is nothing wrong with complaining about and publicizing an outright criminal -- which, unfortunately, it appears Paul T. has become. Illegal/unethical/immoral behavior needs publicity in order to reap its just approbation.

But...(and I think we have steered MOSTLY clear of this in this thread), disappointment with results b/c of unrealistic expectations and/or poor communication are another thing and should not be cause for public shunning. If Dave K, for instance, built a bike that someone didn't like because of those problems, I'm not sure I need to hear about it or ought to use it to judge Dave K.

Just clarifying for my own standards of posting.

And...to be clear: PT seems to have fallen into the first category for whatever sad reason.

[pbarry]

Any Philly area builders that would be willing to make a custom shim?

Sounds like a challenge for Drew at Engin. Worth giving him a shout. I forget his handle here...

[rugbysecondrow]

Bilinkey? They are close.

[Smiley]

Offered his famous $1300 any type of steel frame you want right before NHABS in Indy (I am pretty sure) and my first thought knowing how much Kelly charges for his tig frame is this is too good to be true and this guy is trying to sweep business from the builders whom will be paying ad dollars to go to NHABS. Fact, I think at the time Weisman was singing the Taylor praises.

Well fast forward cause Rugby came to me to size him up for a Taylor that he never got but was lead to believe that it was due any day. Serotta Pete at the time also PM's some folks who responded to Wesiman's thread to say be careful and what we had was a run on a good deal that eventualy went bad...nobody can make that many frames for that cost and stay in business. This Taylor episode was a ponzi scheme and its too bad folks lost money on it. Somebdy should go back further and find those initial threads about how wonderful a deal that Taylor frame is..... that would be a good read today.

[beeatnik]

A couple of years ago I fell for the $1300 build anything deal. As painful and time consuming as it was, I did manage to get a stainless lugged steel single speed road frame albeit very late and with issues. The frame went back in the box and never built as there is a very odd seatube inner diameter on it that I have not been able to get a seatpost or shim (curved TT/ST lug so not not just a Problem Solver shim fix). Paul went dark after a few communications regaging the issues. I suppose I could get a builder to fabricate a shim but I'm unsure as to how willing a builder would be to work on this for me. I would have loved to have sold it but could not with good conscience and of course it's probably all but worthless to anyone but those who don't know Taylor.

Any Philly area builders that would be willing to make a custom shim?

That's interesting. I got in on a custom frame good price for you deal and the ST took a 26.8 post even though the builder told me it would 27.2. Not a huge deal as I was able to get a 26.8 no problem. I mentioned this to my mechanic and he said, "the guy was probably trying to save money on tubing." YMMV

[pbarry]

Offered his famous $1300 any type of steel frame you want right before NHABS in Indy (I am pretty sure) and my first thought knowing how much Kelly charges for his tig frame is this is too good to be true and this guy is trying to sweep business from the builders whom will be paying ad dollars to go to NHABS. Fact, I think at the time Weisman was singing the Taylor praises.

Well fast forward cause Rugby came to me to size him up for a Taylor that he never got but was lead to believe that it was due any day. Serotta Pete at the time also PM's some folks who responded to Wesiman's thread to say be careful and what we had was a run on a good deal that eventualy went bad...nobody can make that many frames for that cost and stay in business. This Taylor episode was a ponzi scheme and its too bad folks lost money on it. Somebdy should go back further and find those initial threads about how wonderful a deal that Taylor frame is..... that would be a good read today.

That deal was too good to be true and was bound to put PT in the ditch. Materials could have cost anywhere from $150-$600 per unit, not counting paint. Crazy, unless one put a limit on orders, like 12, maybe. :rolleyes:

[Louis]

I was wondering how someone who gets so much bad press could possibly stay in business, but apparently it isn't that easy to find everything about someone:

Just for kicks I just Googled "Paul Taylor bicycle." I didn't bother clicking of any of the hits that came up, but in the first three pages I didn't see anything that would cause a potential customer to believe that s/he would have problems with the purchase, and everything that I saw related to the builder (apparently there's guy called Paul Taylor who was killed in an accident with a car a while back) was positive, with several guys saying they really like the bike he built them. (which is similar to what some folks here have said)

I suppose the moral of the story is that if you're considering a builder that you don't know very well it's worth asking about him/her in a forum like this. (Or be sure to do lots of digging on web - I'm sure if I tried hard enough I would have found the PT horror stories, since we know there are quite a few of them out there.)

[e-RICHIE]

This is a public forum and Paul can chime in anytime. No one is kicking, just giving historical perspective.

It's not a public forum - you have to make a concerted effort to follow a message board like this, and can only participate if you register. I understand what you are saying. The Usenet groups may have been the only true public forums. Anyway - I'm not looking to debate the semantics, only suggesting that all communities take on a persona, and it's not clear to me what the value is to this community to say what's been said ad infinitum for at least the three recent years. The steer clear of PT message is already set in stone, cached, and embedded. Finding yet another thread about a special price offer he made pre-NAHBS 5.0 adds light? My post above was suggesting it adds heat.

[slidey]

Hey Richie, this link didn't work for me. Do you have an alternate link? Or do you recall how detailed was the site at all when it was working i.e. how many framebuilder's had their reviews on there.

The details are already cached here on www.framebuilderyelp.com

[e-RICHIE]

Hey Richie, this link didn't work for me. Do you have an alternate link? Or do you recall how detailed was the site at all when it was working i.e. how many framebuilder's had their reviews on there.

Man - I love the Internet atmo.

[pbarry]

It's not a public forum - you have to make a concerted effort to follow a message board like this, and can only participate if you register. I understand what you are saying. The Usenet groups may have been the only true public forums. Anyway - I'm not looking to debate the semantics, only suggesting that all communities take on a persona, and it's not clear to me what the value is to this community to say what's been said ad infinitum for at least the three recent years. The steer clear of PT message is already set in stone, cached, and embedded. Finding yet another thread about a special price offer he made pre-NAHBS 5.0 adds light? My post above was suggesting it adds heat.

Belaboring your own point. I would suggest that deal may have contributed to more recent events. This thread is the only "negative" result that comes up on the first page of a Google search, (and that's if the viewer bothers to read the thread). The title is not inflamatory.

[pbarry]

Man - I love the Internet atmo.

Check your link, it doesn't work.

[cfox]

Hey Richie, this link didn't work for me. Do you have an alternate link? Or do you recall how detailed was the site at all when it was working i.e. how many framebuilder's had their reviews on there.

You've been e-richied.

When some guy runs off with other people's money, they are fair game to be kicked, down or not, and whether or not a purpose is being served. I can think of a single situation in which I could forgive someone for doing that (sick kid). Barring that, eff-em. And really, if the only consequence of this guy's crime is being talked about on some little internet forum, I'd say he's gotten off easy.

[93legendti]

We all know the dramas...no need to re-hash...I'm just wondering if anyone has had ANY contact with Paul in the last six months? Continuing to have no luck getting anywhere in my end...feel free to PM me with any news. Really not trying to stir the pot...just fishing for leads.

Thx

(thread locking in three...two...one....)

I think as long as the story hasn't ended there is value in pursuing the thread- just as those who might seek cover for Mr. Taylor might see value in running interference for him.

[slidey]

I don't mind a good laugh, even at my expense but I don't even get the e-richied bit :cool:

You've been e-richied.

[pbarry]

I don't mind a good laugh, even at my expense but I don't even get the e-richied bit :cool:

Don't worry. ;) Nothing on a YELP search for "bicycle frame builders" or "frame builders" [in Nevada] that brings up anything remotely connected to this topic.

[Ken Robb]

His last known location was in Bozeman I think.

[zmudshark]

New Fox reality show: 'Framebuilder Nightmares', starring Gordon Ramsey.

'Piss off, I didn't ask for the extended headtube, you wanker'

[cfox]

I don't mind a good laugh, even at my expense but I don't even get the e-richied bit :cool:

It's a fake link. The e-richied part? when you read between the lines, and find more lines, that's where he likes to traffic

[retrogrouchy]

It's a fake link. The e-richied part? when you read between the lines, and find more lines, that's where he likes to traffic

<sigh> That's not surprising, but it gets old after a while....

[slidey]

In other words, a lame attempt at increasing site traffic? Got it.

It's a fake link. The e-richied part? when you read between the lines, and find more lines, that's where he likes to traffic

[4Rings6Stars]

In other words, a lame attempt at increasing site traffic? Got it.

The link didn't go to his site, it was just a joke url. Not sure how that increases his site traffic...

[slidey]

Not worth dissecting this any further - I get that it is a mock url, but the reasoning behind it (i.e. none) can be barely classified as a joke.

The link didn't go to his site, it was just a joke url. Not sure how that increases his site traffic...

[Louis]

<sigh> That's not surprising, but it gets old after a while....

Well, maybe it's time to pile on Sachs - "I sent that guy my deposit 7 years ago and I still haven't gotten anything from him. He's a bum. Now I hear he's moved - I guess things were getting too hot for him in CT."

[flydhest]

As a counterpoint, the URL was funny IMO made funnier still that someone clicked it, and funnier still that they complained it didn't work.

Like complaining about there not being any snipes in the forest you spent the night in.

[palincss]

As a counterpoint, the URL was funny IMO made funnier still that someone clicked it, and funnier still that they complained it didn't work.


I disagree. Nothing even slightly funny about it. It was nothing more than an abuse of our trust, and it makes me see the poster in a new, highly negative light.

[AngryScientist]

i think this one has run its course.