View Full Version : Older Sachs Frames
Lifelover
10-11-2005, 11:05 PM
After reading the thread in the classifieds and doing a little ebay research it appears that an older (70's) RS frame can be found in the $700 to $1000.
This seems like it would put it in the same range as a new Gunnar or maybe a kogswell.
This being the case, would the older Sachs offer the same/better/worse ride quality as a contemporary frame? Forget, history, nostalgia, investment, etc. All I care about is ride.
Is there a significant difference in a 1970's Sachs and a 2005 Sachs?
I hope to be getting a steel frame in the next year and while I most likely will spend even less ($300 - $500) it would be tempting to spend more if it was justified (in my mind anyway).
yeah,
the difference is the 1970s ones won't work with modern parts.
jerk
Yes, listen to senor jerk. Ask about the rear spacing (that being the key to parts) and know what you are getting into. Of course, it is easy, easy to build using old parts because there are a ton of them and Phil will make you brand new perfect hubs if you want to build wheels. And if you get an old Sachs and want particular old parts, ask me (but I'm not otherwise selling off NR/SR/Simplex 5500 etc.).
That said, I have a 1984 Sachs with Super Record (looks like it came out of a ZipLock(tm) bag) and it rides as sweetly as any bike I have ever owned. It goes out three or four times a year for long jaunts The intelligence and the magic have always been there, even all those years ago. RS will tell you, and wisely at that, that his bikes are better now.
I would only add that of course they are better now. Each one is better than the last because that's what it means to commit to your craft, learn from experience, and become a artisan (or scholar or professional of any sort) who has only peers.
dbrk
Climb01742
10-12-2005, 08:27 AM
Is there a significant difference in a 1970's Sachs and a 2005 Sachs?
wait time? ;)
Fixed
10-12-2005, 08:32 AM
bro I have a bike with 126 spacing and I just put a washer between the cass. and the dropout works perfect .cheers :beer:
kokies
10-12-2005, 08:34 AM
I ride an older sachs, the only way I would part with it is if I had new one built specific to me. I am not sure if it is because it was set up for race geometry or what but this think descends and turns like nothing else I have ever ridden.
I worked at a bike shop for a few years and had the luxury or building up an older sachs frame for a customer as his secondary bike. It was built up with his old used parts and some new. I took this bike for its first test ride around the parking, there was just something about the way it turn and accelerated and how smooth it was. I was instantly hooked.
A year or so later I finally decided it was time for a road bike. Another customer I had met over the years was an ex-racer for the sachs team, and I heard he had a crash on his bike and he had since stopped riding. Took me less than a week to track down the frame and convince him to part with it. To make a long story short, after 9 months of waiting, a new drive side seat stay and chain stay a fresh coat of paint and a wonderful conversation with an amazing frame builder my dream came true.
So yes, they are well worth it.
Before and after below
Lifelover
10-12-2005, 08:36 AM
yeah,
the difference is the 1970s ones won't work with modern parts.
jerk
The spacing is the missing link I had not considered.
Thanks I will certianly consider that.
e-RICHIE
10-12-2005, 09:52 AM
I would only add that of course they are better now. Each one is better than the last because that's what it means to commit to your craft, learn from experience, and become a artisan (or scholar or professional of any sort) who has only peers. dbrk
douglas is correct.
i once read a story about louise nevelson, or maybe it was
louise bourgois (?), in which she mentioned continuing her
work to "...redeem herself for all the past's mistakes" - or
maybe it was "...past mistakes", i cannot fully recall the
quote. it's no different here. there'd be no reason to turn
the lights on here, or at your place too, if i/we did not
aim higher. to that end, i would certainly hope that all
the details of anything i (or you) do now exceeds that which
was done 5 years ago and certainly 30 years ago.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/l/louise_nevelson.html
http://www.painterskeys.com/auth_search.asp?name=Louise%20Bourgeois
(+ this) u R 4 WARNED!
http://www.american-buddha.com/amapnew61.jpg
Fixed
10-12-2005, 02:36 PM
bro ecccentric artist. Maman 30 foot spider cheers. :beer:
vaxn8r
10-12-2005, 03:21 PM
douglas is correct.
i once read a story about louise nevelson, or maybe it was
louise bourgois (?), in which she mentioned continuing her
work to "...redeem herself for all the past's mistakes" - or
maybe it was "...past mistakes", i cannot fully recall the
quote. it's no different here. there'd be no reason to turn
the lights on here, or at your place too, if i/we did not
aim higher. to that end, i would certainly hope that all
the details of anything i (or you) do now exceeds that which
was done 5 years ago and certainly 30 years ago.
Would you also comment about tubing advancements (or "not advancements" as DBRK would say) in the last 30 years. Better bikes with better tubesets or is it mostly fit and geometry and how you use a specific type of tubing and where. For example, Tom Kellog is building all those anniversary frames out of Columbus SL. Is older vs newer tubing relevant or just a way to make us want to trade up?
e-RICHIE
10-12-2005, 03:32 PM
...Is older vs newer tubing relevant or just a way to make us want to trade up?
i think it's relevant; you can use less of
it and still have a serviceable bicycle.
JohnS
10-12-2005, 03:47 PM
After reading the thread in the classifieds and doing a little ebay research it appears that an older (70's) RS frame can be found in the $700 to $1000.
This seems like it would put it in the same range as a new Gunnar or maybe a kogswell.
This being the case, would the older Sachs offer the same/better/worse ride quality as a contemporary frame? Forget, history, nostalgia, investment, etc. All I care about is ride.
Is there a significant difference in a 1970's Sachs and a 2005 Sachs?
I hope to be getting a steel frame in the next year and while I most likely will spend even less ($300 - $500) it would be tempting to spend more if it was justified (in my mind anyway).
You might want to consider a frame made for you. If I remember correctly from your first posts, you are a new rider who is, how should we say, 'food challenged". You might want a sturdier frame made for you.
e-RICHIE
10-12-2005, 04:23 PM
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/l/louise_nevelson.html
csb-issimo
is "my" quote on that site,
or is the link just a ruse?
csb-issimo
is "my" quote on that site,
or is the link just a ruse?
i guess not.
obfusticate, non. art-e-fact, oui.
perhaps a better ruse:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://maribor.uni-mb.si/vodnikpoobcini/1250ruse/slike/ruse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://maribor.uni-mb.si/vodnikpoobcini/1250ruse/obcina.htm&h=650&w=489&sz=69&tbnid=G-1cTt__kTAJ:&tbnh=135&tbnw=101&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Druse%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%2 6ie%3DUTF-8
Lifelover
10-12-2005, 08:19 PM
You might want to consider a frame made for you. If I remember correctly from your first posts, you are a new rider who is, how should we say, 'food challenged". You might want a sturdier frame made for you.
A custom is in my future and I was planning on getting one this past summer for my 40th Birthday. However, I decided I should wait a while longer and figure out what I really want out of a bike. I currently have a used Ti and I'm building up a used CF (TY Dave Thompson). The Ti is my "small frame" stage, the CF seems to be a little closer to my size and I'm hoping to come across (in time) a traditional level top tube steel frame that would fit more along the line of what DRBK would recommend.
The hope is that after trying different frame designs and materials it will put me in a position to fully benefit from a custom.
e-RICHIE
10-12-2005, 08:26 PM
<snipped>The hope is that after trying different frame designs and materials it will put me in a position to fully benefit from a custom.
here's a thread on rbr which touches on the "custom" phenomenon:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=43088
i feel for all involved.
roman meal
10-12-2005, 09:02 PM
I should point out in my post in the classifieds that I parted with the older Sachs for two reasons. First, because I had the opportunity to order a new one, and with that, gain an improved fit. The older one was a stock size, and a bit of a squeeze for me. Second, it was a frame dedicated to vintage componentry. It wasn't made for the new stuff, and IMO, it doesn't look and feel right when you put newer componentry on a 70s- 80s vintage frame that lacks oversize tubing. It is what it is, and you shouldn't buy an older Sachs with the intention of shoehorning it into the present. Yes, I do miss that ride, but this Kirk that I'm currently riding is making a serious bid for those bragging rights. I own one bike at a time, because until I get tenure, I'm not allowed to. It's in the University contract. :mad:
RM
e-RICHIE
10-12-2005, 09:04 PM
...it doesn't look and feel right when you put newer componentry on a 70s- 80s vintage frame that lacks oversize tubing.
amen, bro.
Lifelover
10-12-2005, 09:14 PM
here's a thread on rbr which touches on the "custom" phenomenon:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=43088
i feel for all involved.
That is my biggest fear and the main reason I have not gone custom.
Who knows, I may even find that I don't need custom I just need to know what I'm doing.
Peter
10-12-2005, 09:36 PM
Whether it rides better or worse will be for you to decide. They certainly will ride differently.
He's evolved into using the new larger tubing diameters for the top and down tubes, as well as the new standard of 1 1/8" steerers. Newer frames will certainly be lighter as well.
His thinking on fit and geometry has changed as well. My late 70's Sachs was from the era of his building it to MY specifications. I can't say it rode any better than any bike I've ridden since, but maybe that's because I designed it!
I think that now he definitely builds frames outside of the norm from the rest of the industry and that may be why people find they ride distinctively different. Your mileage may vary.
e-RICHIE
10-12-2005, 09:38 PM
That is my biggest fear and the main reason I have not gone custom.
Who knows, I may even find that I don't need custom I just need to know what I'm doing.
WARNING - rare quasi-commercial comment:
"custom" is NOT only about the fit or the fit aspect. framebuilders do not, generally, exist for the hard-to-fit crowd. certainly, one would expect that a framebuilder understands how to deal with the subject, but many a builder listens to a tune that dwarfs the size (did i write that?!) issue completely. many simply want to eschew industry, not be accountable to a boss or shareholders, "create", make bicycles in an environment that isn't bound to a model year or a material du jour, reach a quality level that is not attainable in a production environment, and of course - etcetera. i can't tell you who the model demographic is for the average framebuilder, but i'd wager the cat is not a rider who simply can't fit on a bicycle from the mall.
roman meal
10-12-2005, 09:57 PM
Livelover wrote:That is my biggest fear and the main reason I have not gone custom.Who knows, I may even find that I don't need custom I just need to know what I'm doing.
I think you have to know how you should or want to physically feel like on a bike before your builder cuts tubes, i.e. stretched out, low center of gravity, upright, low reach etc,. I think you get this knowledge by putting in some miles and long rides, perhaps racing long miles, but you don't need to be, and are not well served by being the complete expert. You just have to desire it. By desire, I mean you have to dig the whole package from geometry to the deck of cards cut outs to the flow on the clearcoat. But, this would all be silly if the result didn't fit you.
Without getting into the made to measure versus custom argument (still 1-1 bottom of the ninth in the ALCS) it seems like that thread you refer to has splintered into camps of those that have buyer's regret over spending some serious coin on a new ride that doesn't meet their expectations, and those that will denegrate anyone that spends that kind of money simply by stating that it if you really knew what you were doing, you wouldn't need custom and would wear your stock frame as a bohemian badge of honor.
do your homework and know what you want, but there is also the factor of desire. richie-issimo builds the whole package, and when you see and ride the whole package, you either desire it, or don't. Sure, its a tool, but it isn't a crime to show emotion. Poor man on the other thread shows some doubt over the Seven he got, and there is an army ready to pounce on him and says he isn't worthy. Geez.
RM
roman meal
10-12-2005, 10:05 PM
Those umpires in Chicago are worse than the ones at Yankee stadium :crap:
Johny
10-12-2005, 10:23 PM
Those umpires in Chicago are worse than the ones at Yankee stadium :crap:
Terrible!
manet
10-13-2005, 03:57 PM
i guess not.
obfusticate, non. art-e-fact, oui.
perhaps a better ruse:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://maribor.uni-mb.si/vodnikpoobcini/1250ruse/slike/ruse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://maribor.uni-mb.si/vodnikpoobcini/1250ruse/obcina.htm&h=650&w=489&sz=69&tbnid=G-1cTt__kTAJ:&tbnh=135&tbnw=101&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Druse%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%2 6ie%3DUTF-8
what the hEll are U talking about!?
dirtdigger88
10-13-2005, 04:35 PM
what the hEll are U talking about!?
dont ask csb what he is talking about- just smile and nod your head- it makes him happy-
Jason
manet
10-13-2005, 05:47 PM
dont ask - just smile and bob your head- it makes him happy-
Jason
that will make him happy
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.