Hutchison Intensive Tubeless (first impression)

[Keith A]

You may recall recently that I was wondering about running a 25mm rear tire along with 23mm front tire. I was tired of replacing the expensive Fusions so quickly and wanted to try the Intensive to get some more mileage out of a tubeless tire.

Well I got the Intensives yesterday and installed them on a Dura-Ace 7850-SL wheel and here are my initial impressions:
● That was the hardest tire I've ever put on a rim. Matter of fact, I couldn't get it on by myself (which has never happened before) and my daughter had to help me get it on. I even tried heating up the tire with a blower dryer to get it to stretch more. I actually have a blister on my thumb from the effort.
● Once the tire was on, it was the easiest one to seal for the first time inflating it. Usually I have to use my compressor along with some soapy water and play with a new tire for a while to finally get it to seal. But I just used my floor pump and it was just like pumping up a tube tire. BTW, I don't use any sealant.
● These are the skinniest 25mm tire I've seen. I would say that are the same width as the Fusion 23mm tires. I'll post some measurements later, but they are no where near the size of a 25mm Michelin Pro Race.
● They also have a different profile when mounted. Visually they are more narrow that the Fusions or Pro Races, but they are taller. I'm not sure if this will change over time or not.
● I only have just one short ride (10 mile) to work on them so far and they seemed fine...nothing good or bad stood out.

[dekindy]

I guess I am either extremely lucky or have tire mounting technique down to a science because I install Hutchinson Intensives on my 7850sl rims without using tools, only minor effort, and in short order. I used to take forever to install any tire on any rim due to smaller and weaker hands than the average male and using poor technique to boot. Really don't know how to respond to folks, especially ones as experienced and knowledgeable as you, when they express frustration with the install. Seems like you tried my favorite trick, warming them to make them more pliable. Maybe put them in the clothes dryer or in the warm Sun the next time?

Last part of puzzle was inflation. If you get both beads down in the deepest part of the rim, the tire will expand perfectly and the sidewalls seal uniformly. Trying to inflate with the sidewalls against the rim will almost always result in either a very long ordeal inflating with a floor pump and lots of sweat or a trip to the LBS and using their compressor.

If you want to use sealant, I recommend Caffelatex. Stan's failed to seal two flats and now Caffelatex has gotten me the last 5 miles home on two different occasions as opposed to changing a flat on the road. If you prefer the Shimano stems, Caffelatex can be installed through the valve core using Caffelatex's injector which works marvelously. I was skeptical but several reviews gave me the confidence to use it and it works. I gave up on Stan's because it was so messy and did not work for me. Caffelatex seal was not permanent, tires held 50-60 pounds but started to leak if pumped to 100 pounds, and I prefer to patch anyway. Be certain to use Hutchinson glue and any patch will do. You can also work glue into the hole if large enough and glue will help seal in addition to the patch. Caffelatex makes a new substance that can be applied to the exterior of the tire and causes the Caffelatex to seal instantaneously. Have not tried it or seen any reviews but would expect it to be on par with other Caffelatex products. Sure to be popular with the racing crowd.

[Keith A]

dekindy -- I think I know how to install a tire and have done probably 1/2 dozen new Fusions on the 7850-SLs. They aren't easy, but I never had to have any assistance and I don't use tools either.

This is my exact procedure, except I don't use the butts of my hands as described in this video, but will give it a try next time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCb8_PP-8O4

[crownjewelwl]

dekindy -- I think I know how to install a tire and have done probably 1/2 dozen new Fusions on the 7850-SLs. They aren't easy, but I never had to have any assistance and I don't use tools either.

This is my exact procedure, except I don't use the butts of my hands as described in this video, but will give it a try next time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCb8_PP-8O4

this is why i switched back to clinchers...try getting a tube in on the road when the sealant doesnt work!!

[jds108]

When I installed these 25 Intensives on the Stan's 340 rims I had the same experience - it was exceptionally difficult. That was 6 months ago.

I just pulled the tires off of the rims for the first time. They have stretched just a bit (yes, I know, they're not supposed to). I was pulling them off as I thought that the sealant had all dried up, and it had for the most part.

I also noticed despite the "25" label, they're 23s.

At this point I'm going to try using standard tires/tubes on this rim, but there have been isolated reports of standard tires blowing off of these rims. The hook bead is awfully small, so it's not to difficult to see why. I put some Fortezzas on a couple of nights ago and they're just sitting in the garage and seem to be fine...

[Keith A]

jds108 -- I personally haven't had any problem running regular clinchers and tubes on the Dura-Ace 7850-SL wheels, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

[dekindy]

dekindy -- I think I know how to install a tire and have done probably 1/2 dozen new Fusions on the 7850-SLs. They aren't easy, but I never had to have any assistance and I don't use tools either.

This is my exact procedure, except I don't use the butts of my hands as described in this video, but will give it a try next time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCb8_PP-8O4

I am not as quite as quick as this guy but he does it for a living so I don't expect to be as skilled. The difference between how I do it and the video is that I make several attempts at getting the last part of the tire on to the rim instead of doing it all at once. I go back several times make sure that the other sidwall is staying in the very deepest part of the channel and can usually tell when that has been maximized by the amount of resistance to getting the final part of the tire over the rim. I am not saying it is easy but sweating, cursing, and raw hands are no longer part of the equation. Have made a couple of bargain purchases from folks that purchased a quantity of Hutchinsons and decided it was too tough. Wish I could have lived closer so I could go over to their house and experience what they are experiencing or see where they are going wrong.

I have to admit until I got the technique perfected I was to the point I was going to resort to getting the LBS to install any tire. Glad those days are behind me. If it is any consolation, I get twice as many miles out of an Intensive rear tire compared to a 4000S so you do not have to change them as often. Even with having messy sealant to deal with I have changed tires on the road a couple of times even though I was dog tired and it was a hot day so I do not worry about that either.

Better luck with installing them in the future as Intensives are definitely worth it from a wear standpoint and I have not really been able to tell much difference in ride comfort between a Fusion 2 or 3 or Intensive. I now have a Fusion 3 on the front and an Intensive on the rear and that does not seem to matter that much either in terms of comfort.

[Keith A]

Yep, I do the exact same thing...that is to make sure that the rest of the tire remains in the deepest part of the rim.
I now have a Fusion 3 on the front and an Intensive on the rear and that does not seem to matter that much either in terms of comfort.This is my exact setup now.

[socalspeedsk8r]

I have been riding tubeless for the last 3 years and have used all the tires available on the market with the exception of IRC. I have been riding the IRC's for the last few weeks and they are the best tubeless tire I have ever ridden. I have the 23mm which actually measure 23mm. They are very supple and have excellent grip. I would recommend this tire the next time you need tread. I probably won't ever ride another Hutchinson for a long while.


Scott

[dekindy]

I have been riding tubeless for the last 3 years and have used all the tires available on the market with the exception of IRC. I have been riding the IRC's for the last few weeks and they are the best tubeless tire I have ever ridden. I have the 23mm which actually measure 23mm. They are very supple and have excellent grip. I would recommend this tire the next time you need tread. I probably won't ever ride another Hutchinson for a long while.


Scott

Models, prices, and where purchased? I thought I saw that IRC tires were twice the price of Hutchinson but now that I think of it maybe that was Maxis?

[Louis]

● I only have just one short ride (10 mile) to work on them so far and they seemed fine...nothing good or bad stood out.

So based on this, is it worth going tubeless? I would conclude that the answer is no. (Granted, this is a preliminary conclusion following a very short try-out period. Just the same, if they were that great, that much better, one would think that that would be enough for Keith to notice.)

[blantonator]

I run Atoms at 80/85psi without the fear of pinch flatting. The ride is sublime for a 21mm(measured) tire.

[93legendti]

I run Atoms at 80/85psi without the fear of pinch flatting. The ride is sublime for a 21mm(measured) tire.

I use the Atom for the front @ 65-70psi and Fusion 3 for the rear @ 75psi. I have 3 wheel sets set up this way. I agree that the rider is sublime-even on our beyond crappy roads.

[jds108]

So based on this, is it worth going tubeless? I would conclude that the answer is no. (Granted, this is a preliminary conclusion following a very short try-out period. Just the same, if they were that great, that much better, one would think that that would be enough for Keith to notice.)

A Stan's 340 rim allows you to build a light wheel. That Intensive tire is thick. I didn't weigh it, but it has to be heavy. So IMO it rides a little harshly but it must have a lot of miles in it. I think the big reason to go tubeless is for the liquid sealant at a reasonable overall weight. Otherwise I don't see a good reason to bother, but I have never had much of an issue with pinch flats. (Somebody said that tubeless reduces/eliminates pinch flats)

[Louis]

How many of you guys who have gone tubeless use a spare tube as your on-the-road flat repair option? IMO the whole Caffelatex thing is a messy turn-off.

Edit:

If the ride really is that great I'm willing to buy a compressor to get them mounted and sealed at home, if that's what it takes to use them without the glop (plus the compressor can be used for other things, and I like tools) but then what do you do if you have a problem on the road?

[dekindy]

How many of you guys who have gone tubeless use a spare tube as your on-the-road flat repair option? IMO the whole Caffelatex thing is a messy turn-off.

Edit:

If the ride really is that great I'm willing to buy a compressor to get them mounted and sealed at home, if that's what it takes to use them without the glop (plus the compressor can be used for other things, and I like tools) but then what do you do if you have a problem on the road?

I used Stan's at first and it did not work on 2-3 flats and did have to deal with mess and install a tube to get home. I had no problem installing a tube on the road, at least on a hot day but have not done this in cold temps, just have to make sure that you properly store all the tubeless valve parts when you go back to tubeless.

Went without sealant for awhile, have tubeless specific 2nd generation Shimano 7850sl so I can do that, until I was convinced the Caffelatex injector would install sealant through the Shimano valve core. Caffelatex has let me get home twice now without having to deal with a flat on the road and I am very happy. Unless the hole is very tiny, would prefer to patch when I get home so not concerned about sealant being permanent.

If you squeeze the tire together so that the sidewalls are as deep as possible in the center channel you can easily inflate Intensive or Fusion 3 with a floor pump. That was not my experience when I did not do this as it would take a lot of time, sweat, and cursing when inflating before but now it is as simple as inflating a regular tubed clincher. I actually took a couple to the LBS to use their compressor before discovering the proper inflation technique.

I think that most people miss the most important attribute of road tubeless. The stiff sidewall and rim design make the tire much less likely to come off the rim during a massive deflation and a normal hole will deflate much more slowly assuming you are using sealant and give you much more time to stop safely. That was actually the main reason I adopted road tubeless. A riding buddy hit a chuckhole the other day and the front tire instantly deflated, came off the rim, and jammed in the fork throwing him over the bars and resulted in a broken collar bone. Not saying that cannot happen with road tubeless but much less likely. The ride is better overall and even more so if you adopt the lesser tire pressures that road tubeless allows versus a tubed clincher. Won't even discuss rolling resistance, which many people do feel is a tubeless advantage but it is way down on the list for me.

[Keith A]

So based on this, is it worth going tubeless? I would conclude that the answer is no. (Granted, this is a preliminary conclusion following a very short try-out period. Just the same, if they were that great, that much better, one would think that that would be enough for Keith to notice.)Hey Louis. I only have 10 miles on the Intensive tire, but have been riding tubeless for quite some time now. I do think that ride is good, but I honestly can't say it is any better than the Michelin P3R (haven't tried the P4R's yet).

So the question in my mind is it worth staying with tubeless? In all the years of riding, I've only had one pinch flat, so that's not an issue. I'm not using the sealant...don't want to deal with the mess or void the Shimano warranty. So that leaves the ride quality as really the only reason to stay with tubeless. I do love the Dura-Ace 7850-SL wheels, but at this point I'm thinking about going back to the Michelin PR's. They are cheaper than the Hutchinson's and ride just as well.

BTW Louis, I have had two tire flats that blew part of the tire off the rim and unfortunately they were both on the front. I went down hard one time in a race, no broken bones, but lots of road rash. The other time, I managed to come to a stop riding on rim. The rim was pretty trashed, but I survived. I'm not sure how this attribute weighs in for me.

[Louis]

Guys, thanks for taking the time for the thoughtful and in-depth replies. One of these days, when I decide to use the Ultegra tubeless wheels I have down in the basement, I'll have to figure out what option is the best combination of practicality and performance for my tastes.

[LO^OK]

I'm willing to buy a compressor to get them mounted and sealed at home...

No need for a compressor, a floor pump do the job just fine.

[93legendti]

...

I think that most people miss the most important attribute of road tubeless. The stiff sidewall and rim design make the tire much less likely to come off the rim during a massive deflation and a normal hole will deflate much more slowly assuming you are using sealant and give you much more time to stop safely. That was actually the main reason I adopted road tubeless. A riding buddy hit a chuckhole the other day and the front tire instantly deflated, came off the rim, and jammed in the fork throwing him over the bars and resulted in a broken collar bone. Not saying that cannot happen with road tubeless but much less likely. The ride is better overall and even more so if you adopt the lesser tire pressures that road tubeless allows versus a tubed clincher. Won't even discuss rolling resistance, which many people do feel is a tubeless advantage but it is way down on the list for me.
Yup.
I am convinced the ride quality is better. I've ridden back to back with my old favorite tires on the same bike, same roads, same wheels, different tires and no longer wish to ride Michelin clinchers.
I ride at lower pressures; rolling resistance and cornering are improved; I just had the first season with no flats in over 10 years and I only had to inflate ~1x/week.

Around here, everyone that has switched to tubeless are convinced. Fwiw, we have a tubeless demonstrator in our shop. Normal mtb tire mounted on a rim with Stan's sealant inside. I've repeatedly stabbed it with a sharpened spoke and it ALWAYS seals. Sold a lot of tubeless conversions that way. Customers love it. I know it sold me.
Ymmv.

[93legendti]

Hey Louis. I only have 10 miles on the Intensive tire, but have been riding tubeless for quite some time now. I do think that ride is good, but I honestly can't say it is any better than the Michelin P3R (haven't tried the P4R's yet).

So the question in my mind is it worth staying with tubeless? In all the years of riding, I've only had one pinch flat, so that's not an issue. I'm not using the sealant...don't want to deal with the mess or void the Shimano warranty. So that leaves the ride quality as really the only reason to stay with tubeless. I do love the Dura-Ace 7850-SL wheels, but at this point I'm thinking about going back to the Michelin PR's. They are cheaper than the Hutchinson's and ride just as well.

BTW Louis, I have had two tire flats that blew part of the tire off the rim and unfortunately they were both on the front. I went down hard one time in a race, no broken bones, but lots of road rash. The other time, I managed to come to a stop riding on rim. The rim was pretty trashed, but I survived. I'm not sure how this attribute weighs in for me.

Keith, at what psi are to running your tubeless tires?

[oldpotatoe]

No need for a compressor, a floor pump do the job just fine.

That depends on the tire, rim, etc. In our experience, vast majority would not seal w/o a compressor. 'Maybe' some with a 20g CO2...but most need a compressor.

[Keith A]

Keith, at what psi are to running your tubeless tires?Usually around 95 psi and I weigh 150 to 155 lbs.

[93legendti]

Usually around 95 psi and I weigh 150 to 155 lbs.

I am heavier than you and running a least 20psi less...I wasn't impressed with tubeless at 85 psi...just saying

[dekindy]

Yup.
I've repeatedly stabbed it with a sharpened spoke and it ALWAYS seals. Sold a lot of tubeless conversions that way. Customers love it. I know it sold me.
Ymmv.

I was frustrated by Stan's not working for me as I have seen the demonstrations. However after reading many comments from people that used both Stan's and Caffelatex and their conclusions seemed to run about 50% Stans and 50% Caffelatex, I decided to try Caffelatex. Caffelatex is also less messy since their injector installs through the valve stem without having to remove the core, which is a huge advantage as the Shimano vavle stem core cannot be removed. I am now a happy sealant user with less mess and 2 for 2 on being able to get home with a puncture.

[dekindy]

That depends on the tire, rim, etc. In our experience, vast majority would not seal w/o a compressor. 'Maybe' some with a 20g CO2...but most need a compressor.

You would have a much broader experience than I since I have only used road tubeless specific Shimano 7850sl. Just to clarify, did you get both sidewalls centered in the rim channel before inflating with a floor pump? Until I did that inflation was so frustrating and time consuming that I resorted to taking the installed tire to the LBS for inflation. Once I realized the proper technique it was a piece of cake.

[oldpotatoe]

You would have a much broader experience than I since I have only used road tubeless specific Shimano 7850sl. Just to clarify, did you get both sidewalls centered in the rim channel before inflating with a floor pump? Until I did that inflation was so frustrating and time consuming that I resorted to taking the installed tire to the LBS for inflation. Once I realized the proper technique it was a piece of cake.

Yep...sure did...like I said, it really depends on the tire and rim since there are a scad of different 'standards' out there for tubeless.

I have seen the difficulty getting some to seat even WITH a compressor...floorpump ain't gonna do it. And I don't care what some say...you will never seat a tubeless on the road with a hand/frame pump.

[Keith A]

I am heavier than you and running a least 20psi less...I wasn't impressed with tubeless at 85 psi...just sayingGood input...I'll try running it a little lower.

[CaptStash]

This thread is quite timely for me as I intend to install Fusion 3's on my 7850 CL's tomorrow. I'll be using Caffe Latex, but with a technique that doesn't require it to be installed through the valve stem.

I'll report back after it's done.

CaptStash....

[Keith A]

CaptStash -- Are you sure these are CL's? The SL's and TL's were the tubeless ones, the CL's are not...at least not with some type of modification like Stans.

[socalspeedsk8r]

A comment was made, " is tubeless worth the effort". I would say that it is, without question. I have a hard time understanding why so many are reluctant to ride tubeless when it simply makes sense.

I have had to get off the bike to change a flat only once in 3 years and I hate changing flats. They are way more comfortable to ride than standard clinchers and hold up better. I ride 12-14k a year and can get 4k out of a tubeless tire easy.

Notes on the IRC tubeless. They are easier to mount up than the Hutchinsons and seem to have a bit wider hook bead. Very solid tire so far.

Scott

[CaptStash]

CaptStash -- Are you sure these are CL's? The SL's and TL's were the tubeless ones, the CL's are not...at least not with some type of modification like Stans.

You got me worried there Keith! You are correct, they are TL's!

Stash....

[crankles]

Coming to the party a bit late here, but I thought I'd chime in. Built a new bike recently from the ground up and decided to experiment with tubeless road. Several team mates ride and love em. Currently running a set of Stans 340s laced to ck r45 ( 24/28, supercomp+comp ). Wheelset came in at around 1300g. I'm running Hutchinson intensives + sealant.

For comparison, I've been riding Vittoria Pave Tubular 27mm and Pave Clinchers 24mm on similar wheels ( Dt rims, ck hubs ).

I'd put the tubless in the middle of the two. I really like them. I doubt I'll go back to pave clinchers.

It's pretty hard to match the ride 27mm tubulars. Like riding a couch.

cheers
_t

[weaponsgrade]

I also had an extremely difficult time getting my Intensives onto a DA Tubeless wheelset. I was able to get the bead sealed with a floor pump without much trouble. As a comparison, I recently mounted a tubular and that was definitely easier. I do think the tubless has a nicer ride than a clincher, but I'm not sure I'd do it again. Luckily most tubeless wheels can be run with a clincher which is what I'm doing on one of the wheels. To be sure, the Intensive did stretch out and I've been able to get a tube in it. It was still more difficult than putting a tube in a clincher, but still nothing like the first time I tried to get the tire on.

[snowcrash19]

Tubeless is great and worth the effort, there are currently several problems in the marketplace though:

1) There is no standard shelf height or bead seat width. Which means almost all rims are designed differently and it is difficult for a tire manufacturer to make an adequate tire. Beads are too large, tires are often too tight and difficult to mount because the only standard is a 622mm bead seat diameter but how you get there is different on every rim. Stretching a carbon/kevlar bead sucks, period but then make the bead over sized its next to impossible.

2) All rim widths are different. I have a 23mm wide road tubeless so putting a 23c tire on it stretches it out to a 25c, thus changing the profile of the tire entirely.

3) Soap. Use soap people, always. Road tubeless is not Mountain tubeless, the tires are very different and the rim profiles are dramatically different. Mountain bikers have been using soap for ages and those tires are easy to mount. Take a small cup and put mostly liquid dish soap in with just a splash of water. Soap the tire and tire well of the rim. Always start opposite the valve otherwise it will become too snug from resting on the valve as you work your way around.

4) Weight. Tubeless tires are just plain heavy. The Intensive claims 240 grams.... is it?

5) Manufacturing. There are very few bicycle tire factories in the world. Many of them are made at the same place and have the same issues.

All of this being said I love tubeless, its as close to a tubular that you'll ever get in a clincher format. Is it lighter? No. Does it ride better than a standard clincher? Yes. Tubeless and flats are a moot issue, you can still get tears and punctures like any tire. You might not get the small tiny annoying punctures but honestly in the last 8,000 miles of tube riding I've had 3 flats. Plus you just throw a tube in your tubeless and keep going. I'm currently riding the Maxxis Padrone which I like, heavy though... They have the 22c Radial and I know they are coming out with some better beads soon. I've ridden the Atom / Fusion 3 and IRC. I really liked the IRC its just hard to come by.

[Louis]

I have seen the difficulty getting some to seat even WITH a compressor...floorpump ain't gonna do it. And I don't care what some say...you will never seat a tubeless on the road with a hand/frame pump.

So for folks with a "bad" combination it seems that your only options are a) hope the Stans / whatever seals the flat, or b) carry a spare tube. With (b) being the only 100% sure option.

[snowcrash19]

So for folks with a "bad" combination it seems that your only options are a) hope the Stans / whatever seals the flat, or b) carry a spare tube. With (b) being the only 100% sure option.

ALWAYS carry a spare tube, don't be that guy.

There isn't really a "good" or "bad" combination, none of them are really all that good. They all take quite a bit of soap to initially mount. One they are mounted and ridden they often stretch and are easier to mount the second time around. Kind of like jeans out of the dryer seem small but after you wear them once they're easy to put on. Also sometimes bad tires are made, thank goodness for warranties!

The whole issue with a floor compressor just means the person isn't installing them correctly. Sounds mean but I've mounted dozens of wheel sets without a compressor. Often they didn't use enough soap and the bead is twisting. Also a good shop rag really helps to avoid blisters and if you have soapy hands (which you should).

Again if the tire beads were slightly smaller this issue wouldn't be happening. the bead is plenty strong just has too much rubber around it and hangs up on the rim.

[Louis]

Final (I think) question:

Assuming I decide to not use Stans or Caffelatex and get a flat, which I fix on the road with a spare tube, am I condemned to use a tube in that tire forever, or are tubeless tires patchable (at home) in a reliable manner?

TIA

[dekindy]

Final (I think) question:

Assuming I decide to not use Stans or Caffelatex and get a flat, which I fix on the road with a spare tube, am I condemned to use a tube in that tire forever, or are tubeless tires patchable (at home) in a reliable manner?

TIA

Yes. Hutchinson makes their own tubeless kit and it is essential that you use their glue but any patch will do. If the hole is big enough, the glue can be put inside the hole to help seal but will always need a patch. For racers Caffelatex now has available an activator that can be carried on the bike and applied externally to the tire to instantly harden the Caffelatex that may be squirting out of the punctured area. This will more quickly seal the tire with less air loss in order to get back into the race more quickly.

I have patched two Intensives, the first patch holding for 3,000 miles and the second for 1,500 miles with the help of Caffelatex closing up a small leak on the corner of the patch until I suffered a catastrophic puncture

[LO^OK]

That depends on the tire, rim, etc. In our experience, vast majority would not seal w/o a compressor. 'Maybe' some with a 20g CO2...but most need a compressor.

Certainly not 20g CO2! Just a plain vanilla floor pump in my case; Wheels 7850 SL, tires Fusion 2. In about two minutes the tire get inflated to 85 - 90 PSI. I don't understand what the fuss is all about.

[oldpotatoe]

Certainly not 20g CO2! Just a plain vanilla floor pump in my case; Wheels 7850 SL, tires Fusion 2. In about two minutes the tire get inflated to 85 - 90 PSI. I don't understand what the fuss is all about.

No fuss..I have a compressor. I ride tubulars on my own bici, no fuss at all.

[dekindy]

Certainly not 20g CO2! Just a plain vanilla floor pump in my case; Wheels 7850 SL, tires Fusion 2. In about two minutes the tire get inflated to 85 - 90 PSI. I don't understand what the fuss is all about.

My experience also but only after a long learning curve. The guys commenting on having difficulty have lots of knowledge and much broader experience with different rims than ours so I respect their opinions highly and am just thankful our rims do not give us a hassle. Glad I figured it all out as I had resorted to going to the LBS to use their compressor!

[snowcrash19]

My experience also but only after a long learning curve. The guys commenting on having difficulty have lots of knowledge and much broader experience with different rims than ours so I respect their opinions highly and am just thankful our rims do not give us a hassle. Glad I figured it all out as I had resorted to going to the LBS to use their compressor!

Opinions are just that, they are opinions. The biggest thing is to go slow, take your time and do it right the first few times. I personally don't think tubeless was ready for the mass market yet. For the 2014 season there will be many options. 2013 is getting better but they are still only working out the kinks.

[oldpotatoe]

Opinions are just that, they are opinions. The biggest thing is to go slow, take your time and do it right the first few times. I personally don't think tubeless was ready for the mass market yet. For the 2014 season there will be many options. 2013 is getting better but they are still only working out the kinks.

Kinks..tubeless on bicycles is over a decade old. Many of the very big bicycle trie makers, Contiental and Vittoria, for example, have decided it isn't worth the time, money and effort to develop, for road tires.

I think some are trying to do the 'different' thing in a pretty placid market, kinda like the move to BB30..

[snowcrash19]

Kinks..tubeless on bicycles is over a decade old. Many of the very big bicycle trie makers, Contiental and Vittoria, for example, have decided it isn't worth the time, money and effort to develop, for road tires.

I think some are trying to do the 'different' thing in a pretty placid market, kinda like the move to BB30..

I disagree, Conti and Vittoria may have decided that back then but there was no where near the rim technology then, people just stuffed tape under the bead to make it snug. Wider and lighter rims combine with a decent tire is a great riding super lightweight wheel and at the moment there isn't anything better unless you want to shell out $2000+ for good carbon tubulars.

BB30 is a whole different story. :)

[oldpotatoe]

I disagree, Conti and Vittoria may have decided that back then but there was no where near the rim technology then, people just stuffed tape under the bead to make it snug. Wider and lighter rims combine with a decent tire is a great riding super lightweight wheel and at the moment there isn't anything better unless you want to shell out $2000+ for good carbon tubulars.

BB30 is a whole different story. :)

It wasn't 'back then', it was about a year ago. August 2011

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=94425

And now there are all these tubeless ready wheels and rims, they still decide to not get into that 'game'.

There are plenty of wide/narrow and light, tubular, aluminum rims out there that make a nice, light wheelset. Nope not in the 1100-1200 gram range but only about 200-300 grams heavier, still very lively..about the weight of 4 powerbars, and way less than $1000.

Plus the wide aluminum rims clincher rims aren't that light, nor are the wheels..Stan's are light and incredibly unreliable..no such thing as a free lunch.

[LO^OK]

Many of the very big bicycle trie makers, Contiental and Vittoria, for example, have decided it isn't worth

Most likely this has nothing to do with "technology" itself, but it's all about the money now. If the mammoth brand X has a successful line of products and dominate a sizeable segment of the market why pour resources in competing technology that ultimately will erode their market share? Big brands are frequently very conservative, rigid, and on occasion, plain dumb.

[snowcrash19]

Most likely this has nothing to do with "technology" itself, but it's all about the money now. If the mammoth brand X has a successful line of products and dominate a sizeable segment of the market why pour resources in competing technology that ultimately will erode their market share? Big brands are frequently very conservative, rigid, and on occasion, plain dumb.

Agree'd

[snowcrash19]

It wasn't 'back then', it was about a year ago. August 2011

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=94425

And now there are all these tubeless ready wheels and rims, they still decide to not get into that 'game'.

There are plenty of wide/narrow and light, tubular, aluminum rims out there that make a nice, light wheelset. Nope not in the 1100-1200 gram range but only about 200-300 grams heavier, still very lively..about the weight of 4 powerbars, and way less than $1000.

Plus the wide aluminum rims clincher rims aren't that light, nor are the wheels..Stan's are light and incredibly unreliable..no such thing as a free lunch.

Quite a bit can change in 1 year but agree'd it wasn't as long as I thought. They have some reasonable points but I still disagree with a few of their points.

I don't want aluminum tubular though, isn't that the point? However, I think they are very nice and with the current cost of tubeless tires you might as well ride tubulars...

Overall I would agree with you OldPotatoe, maybe I just have wishful thinking that it will get better. I think as time goes on it might be worth while.

[scooter]

Michelin, Continental, Schwalbe, Panaracer, yada yada yada - all sell UST tubeless MTB tires. Yet, they don't sell road tubeless tires. Why? Oh, Continental sells their Race King and Rubber Queen MTB tires in both tubeless and standard clincher variants, so I guess pouring money into new technology to compete with an existing product isn't such a problem for Continental.

[CaptStash]

Fusion 3's installed today! There is definitely a learning curve, but after I got it all figured out they went on just fine. Definitely takes some elbow grease.

The Caffe Latex was applied as follows:

Install tires and inflate. Beam proudly and think about it for a minute, then deflate.
Pop one side of the tire from the rim.
Pour 30ml of the latex into the tire and rotate so that it covers the whole tire interior. You could do this on a truing stand, or if you don't have one (like me) on your bike hanging in the work stand.
Re-mount the tire and inflate.
Spin the tires a good bit to insure that the latex does not puddle.

It was a little bit messy, but cleaned-up easily. The tires went on a lot easier the second time around.

I ran out of time, so didn't get to try them out. I'll take them for a spin after I get back form my next trip. sometime next week.

CaptStash....

[Louis]

Pour 30ml of the latex into the tire

How many grams does that weigh? (serious question) As much as a tube? Half as much?

[Cervelott]

CaptStash i use much the same method as you do but instead of pulling one edge of the tire off the rim when deflating it, I remove the core of the presta valve and use a syringe to get the sealant into the tire. Works fabulously and most of the bead of the entire tire is still seated so very little leakage if any.

I will never go back to clinchers. I love my Fusion 3's, love the ride, and have only had 2 flats in 15,000km of riding these past 3 years, both of which sealed and I was able to make it home (in one case I did not even know I had punctured, just noticed the white milky Stans on my leg). I even put them in my tubulars now but suggest you drain them with a syringe after your racing season is done.

[CaptStash]

As liquid, assuming it's close to the same s.g. as water, then 30 grams. What does a tube weigh?

CaptStash....

[Louis]

I just checked, 90g for a Michelin Airstop (butyl) 700 x 23

[dekindy]

Fusion 3's installed today! There is definitely a learning curve, but after I got it all figured out they went on just fine. Definitely takes some elbow grease.

The Caffe Latex was applied as follows:

Install tires and inflate. Beam proudly and think about it for a minute, then deflate.
Pop one side of the tire from the rim.
Pour 30ml of the latex into the tire and rotate so that it covers the whole tire interior. You could do this on a truing stand, or if you don't have one (like me) on your bike hanging in the work stand.
Re-mount the tire and inflate.
Spin the tires a good bit to insure that the latex does not puddle.

It was a little bit messy, but cleaned-up easily. The tires went on a lot easier the second time around.

I ran out of time, so didn't get to try them out. I'll take them for a spin after I get back form my next trip. sometime next week.

CaptStash....

Get the Caffelatex injector and you can do it with no mess; injects easily through the valve core.

[oldpotatoe]

Michelin, Continental, Schwalbe, Panaracer, yada yada yada - all sell UST tubeless MTB tires. Yet, they don't sell road tubeless tires. Why? Oh, Continental sells their Race King and Rubber Queen MTB tires in both tubeless and standard clincher variants, so I guess pouring money into new technology to compete with an existing product isn't such a problem for Continental.

Or they view tubeless road as 'not worth it', in terms of genuine advantages on a road setup, which I agree with.

AND tubeless MTB makes lots of sense but it's another MTB technology trying to make it's way to the road(NOT cross, but road) segment w/o any real advantages, IMHO...kinda like wet discs, again, IMHO.

[snowcrash19]

Anyone want to buy a pair of slightly used Maxxis Padrone 700x23 tires? Probably have about 800 miles on them. Selling for $75/Pair unless you have some Thomson stuff to trade. Looking for:

Thomson 31.6 diameter post - black - 367mm or 410mm length - setback only
Thomson 31.8 threadless stem - black - 100mm length - 0 degree only