The Armstrong Thread

[CunegoFan]

Leipheimer banned for six months.

I wonder if he keeps his wins from the last couple of years. After confessing he spent his time preying on the big stage races in the U.S. It was like taking a dump on all the American races, for which sponsorship and longevity is always sketchy. Not cool.

I would like to see the 2011 Tour de Suisse be stripped. :)

[G-Reg]

I would hope they consider his cooperation and not strip him of any wins/placements.

Levi is simply a victim and now a fall guy for the LA doping machine. LA figured if he could make everyone else dope he could justify his doping.

I have no problem with the authorities cutting deals with the minor players of the Big Lie in order to take down the figure head(s). LA and JB. May they both burn in hell.

[don compton]

I wonder if he keeps his wins from the last couple of years. After confessing he spent his time preying on the big stage races in the U.S. It was like taking a dump on all the American races, for which sponsorship and longevity is always sketchy. Not cool.

I would like to see the 2011 Tour de Suisse be stripped. :)
Where did read this?

[MattTuck]

There was a show last night on ESPN. About the 100M sprint during the 1980's... talked a lot about the pressures of doping.

At the end of the day, people made choices to dope for themselves.

Is Levi a nice guy? Yes. I don't think his desire to be competitive makes him any less likable.

I continue to believe the best way to end doping is blanket amnesty for those that come forward before a certain bright line date, and admit to it in secret and disclose techniques and practices so that tests can be carried out to catch others.

[bikerboy337]

+1 to this... dont see the story anywhere...

Where did read this?

[Vientomas]

Linky por favor?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . anywhere I can search with Google.

Link? . . .

BBD

[Rada]

It's funny, likable guy cheats give him a pass, unlikable guy cheats nail him to the wall. The sport is a joke in a very pathetic way.

[Vientomas]

USADA statement: http://www.usada.org/cyclinginvestigationstatement.html

Nothing about duration of suspensions.

[CunegoFan]

Where did read this?

It is coming from his team. USADA claims that the length of the ban has not been determined but I guess there has been some sort of indication about it to Leipheimer. As of today he is suspended along with Tommy D and VDV.

[G-Reg]

USADA statement: http://www.usada.org/cyclinginvestigationstatement.html

Nothing about duration of suspensions.

Some names I did not expect.

"These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie."

WOW!

[dekindy]

I would hope they consider his cooperation and not strip him of any wins/placements.

Levi is simply a victim and now a fall guy for the LA doping machine. LA figured if he could make everyone else dope he could justify his doping.

I have no problem with the authorities cutting deals with the minor players of the Big Lie in order to take down the figure head(s). LA and JB. May they both burn in hell.

Wow. Everybody else is a victim? I simply don't agree. Same crime deserves the same punishment.

[bikerboy337]

I cant wait to read what big George, Tom, Michael, Leci, CVV and Captain America have to say... the others Lance has scoffed at as being liars, what can he spin about these guys...

Some names I did not expect.

"These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie."

WOW!

[Vientomas]

Hincapie's admission: http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/george-hincapie-admits-doping?page=0,1

[Joachim]

Hincapie's admission: http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/george-hincapie-admits-doping?page=0,1

"I've only used it....., but after that no more". Yes, I believe you. :cool:. Start giving back some of your pre-2006 bonusses then. I know we can use it to pay for scientific research.

I bet there are some interesting press releases on its way.

[CunegoFan]

I would hope they consider his cooperation and not strip him of any wins/placements.

Levi is simply a victim and now a fall guy for the LA doping machine. LA figured if he could make everyone else dope he could justify his doping.

I have no problem with the authorities cutting deals with the minor players of the Big Lie in order to take down the figure head(s). LA and JB. May they both burn in hell.

The problem is that European scene is the European scene. The domestic scene is different. Sure there is doping here, but it is not on the same level as Europe. The domestic guys have a right to be pissed that Leipheimer has been scalping victories here instead of battling it out with his own kind across the Atlantic. It is like Papp taking money from riders in the Pennsylvania area.

This is bad for the Tour of California, Tour of Utah, and the USPCC.

[Tony T]

. . . anywhere I can search with Google.

Link? . . .

BBD

WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578048352672452328.html?m od=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories):Hincapie, and ten other top American cyclists, including Levi Leipheimer, one of three Americans to finish on the Tour de France podium, have been suspended from competition. According to a person familiar with the matter, USADA handed the cyclists the minimum possible doping ban...

No mention yet if the ban is backdated (ala Contador)

[christian]

So Hincapie admits to doping between 1994 and 2006, essentially.

[bikerboy337]

At least he's coming clean, even if its not 100%, he's coming clean and I can respect that... I will be very interested to see what he says in the testimony... I can respect this much more than denial...

"I've only used it....., but after that no more". Yes, I believe you. :cool:

[CunegoFan]

Some names I did not expect.

"These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie."

WOW!

Looks like word on the street was right and Jemisen punked out.

[Joachim]

At least he's coming clean, even if its not 100%, he's coming clean and I can respect that... I will be very interested to see what he says in the testimony... I can respect this much more than denial...

He only came clean after the release of the USADA report. Maybe he should've come clean in 2007... Agree that this gets more (tiny more) respect than denial. I still feel that they all try to do good then with "support" of the young riders, but I haven't seen any of the other mentioned in the release offer up their prize money or bonusses. Too little, too late. No more support for Hincapie sportswear from me (local or not).

[bikerboy337]

Dont get me wrong, I agree with you on this... and would have much rather had him speak out years ago... but I'm at least glad to see these guys actually broke the omerta when the sh!&^ was hitting the fan... thats about all I can expect at this point...

He only came clean after the release of the USADA report. Maybe he should've come clean in 2007... Agree that this gets more (tiny more) respect than denial.

[Vientomas]

Remember George winning this stage in 2005? http://www.letour.fr/2005/presentationus/profil_15.html

It seemed a bit suspect at the time.

[Tony T]

He only came clean after the release of the USADA report. Maybe he should've come clean in 2007.


http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=100356&stc=1&d=1345302111

[Joachim]

Dont get me wrong, I agree with you on this... and would have much rather had him speak out years ago... but I'm at least glad to see these guys actually broke the omerta when the sh!&^ was hitting the fan... thats about all I can expect at this point...

Yes, at least the main "nice" guy came forward.

[CunegoFan]

"I've only used it....., but after that no more". Yes, I believe you. :cool:. Start giving back some of your pre-2006 bonusses then. I know we can use it to pay for scientific research.

I bet there are some interesting press releases on its way.

It is a reasonable statement. He had the chance to continue with Bruyneel but did not.

[cfox]

Levi and Tommy D are scheduled to ride in my one and only fred ride of the year this weekend, wonder if they'll show up. Contador was supposed to be there 2 years ago (I was really looking forward to riding with him), but the Clen story came out 3 days before the ride nad he pulled out due to "personal reasons."

[christian]

The problem is that European scene is the European scene. The domestic scene is different. Sure there is doping here, but it is not on the same level as Europe. The domestic guys have a right to be pissed that Leipheimer has been scalping victories here instead of battling it out with his own kind across the Atlantic. It is like Papp taking money from riders in the Pennsylvania area.

This is bad for the Tour of California, Tour of Utah, and the USPCC.

100% agree. It's like stealing babies from Candy.

[Dave B]

Has anyone here lost money or had their business or life diminished due to these guys taking drugs to win or be better? I am curious what impact these guys using drugs has done, outside of gambling of course.

[Keith A]

I always thought that when Big George admitted to using PEDs, that would be the final straw for me that they were all "ridin dirty". Well this day has finally come.

[laupsi]

It won't be long before this one is shut down; that's my bet anyway!

Please keep it Objective?

[Keith A]

Here's a little humor on this subject...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJnYVm4iaqc

[bluesea]

So Frankie Andreu's glass house came crashing down after all.

[weiwentg]

"I've only used it....., but after that no more". Yes, I believe you. :cool:. Start giving back some of your pre-2006 bonusses then. I know we can use it to pay for scientific research.

I bet there are some interesting press releases on its way.

I know he's doing the Ivan Basso-style semi-confession, but looking at his results it's possible that he's telling the truth about not being juiced since 06. he beat Oscar Periero on a mountain stage in the 2005 Tour. in retrospect, that was implausible if he was riding clean, particularly at his size. since then, nothing as spectacular. and he did leave Postal in 2007 for cleaner teams.

do I believe him, I'm not sure. I certainly wish he had come forward earlier.

but you take what you get, and if he had refused to testify, USADA's case would be a whole lot less convincing.

[Elefantino]

Hopefully, the slow burn-down of the 15-year (or so) systematic doping culture is gathering fuel.

George has at least admitted he was a doper when he rode with Lance. I wonder if those seven yellow jerseys, and the photo of the Pla d'Adet win, that are on the wall at the Hincapie HQ in Greenville will come down. Maybe he can put up pictures of him leading out for Cav.

There can be no denying it now. An entire cycling generation was doped to the gills. If you didn't dope, you didn't ride in Europe.

Everything should get an asterisk.

[Joachim]

I would really like to see Team Sky's response to Barry's confession. I believe Sky doesn't not hire any ex-dopers.

[Germany_chris]

I always thought that when Big George admitted to using PEDs, that would be the final straw for me that they were all "ridin dirty". Well this day has finally come.

If everyone is dirty does that not make it clean or at least the new norm?

[Vientomas]

Barry's statement: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/story/2012/10/10/sp-uci-cycling-usada-doping-lance-armstrong.html?cmp=rss

[CunegoFan]

I would really like to see Team Sky's response to Barry's confession. I believe Sky doesn't not hire any ex-dopers.

That was the old Sky, the one before they hired dodgy doctors like Gert Leinders and the other one, the name of whom I forget. Sky's Tour team improved radically at the same time. Pure coincidence, of course.

[cfox]

So Frankie Andreu's glass house came crashing down after all.

what does this mean??? Frankie came clean years ago, way before this investigation

I would really like to see Team Sky's response to Barry's confession. I believe Sky doesn't not hire any ex-dopers.

Barry is retired, plus that policy went out the window when they hire Rabobank's former dope doctor

[Joachim]

Nice...

From:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usadas-reasoned-decision-on-lance-armstrong-follows-the-money-trail


"The taxpayers and cycling fans from around the world will later today be able to peruse the documents and decide for themselves. USADA states it will "reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy". The documents will be available at www.usada.org."

[CaliFly]

<snip> Same crime deserves the same punishment.

All these threads about doping, and really it just boils down to this. ^^^

There is no "but he's a nicer guy" or "at least he came clean" or "he gave his left kidney to save my dying brother". Arguing over the likeability factor of someone only leads to closed threads and bruised (or exalted) egos. They're all culpable...to what degree is of no consequence. They're all also victims...of hubris.

[Tony T]

Nice...
From:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usadas-reasoned-decision-on-lance-armstrong-follows-the-money-trail
"USADA states it will "reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy".

Interesting that the Fed's dropped their conspiracy case.:confused:

[earlfoss]

News about the feds dropping the case has been out for a while. It looked to many that it was a political move more than anything else. Google around a bit, it is a weird thing for sure.

[GuyGadois]

I always thought that when Big George admitted to using PEDs, that would be the final straw for me that they were all "ridin dirty". Well this day has finally come.

Read Tyler Hamilton's book and it will pretty much confirm that most were doping and explains in detail how they got around tests all those years. At least baseball and football are clean how ;)

le Gadois

[William]

The shadow's high on the darker side

behind the doors
it's a wilder ride.
You can make a breath
you can win or lose.
Well
that's a chance you take when the heat's on you

when the heat is on.
Oho
oho
caught up in the action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-mU-YSk32I






;):)
William

[tuxbailey]

So, the bomb finally hits the ground.

How glorious... the fireworks it is and what will follow.

[oldguy00]

So Barry was doped at his 2003 worlds performance....big surprise. But funny how so many people have defended people like him over the years cause he's such a nice guy.....duh..

And I think it sucks that Lance gets a harsher penalty than these guys. They all made choices.

[fiamme red]

Barry's statement: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/story/2012/10/10/sp-uci-cycling-usada-doping-lance-armstrong.html?cmp=rssBut Michael Barry is such a nice guy. I don't want to believe such a nice guy would ever dope! :rolleyes:

[Keith A]

If everyone is dirty does that not make it clean or at least the new norm?So the question is..."What do you do with the current results?" If almost everyone was doing some form PED (albeit some may have had a better program than others), how can they pass the title onto someone else and know that this person was clean? It is obvious, that the riders could pass the doping controls, so just because the 3rd, 4th or whatever place wasn't caught, doesn't mean they were clean.

[tuxbailey]

So US Postal is the root of evil now since everyone is clean after they leave the team.

I wonder how Lance feels about being kicked while down.

He should hot have tried for the last glory. Greed is bad, or maybe he just had bad lawyers.

I wonder if they would have gone after him again if he just did the Ironman and Leadville races?

[CunegoFan]

And I think it sucks that Lance gets a harsher penalty than these guys. They all made choices.

Armstrong was given the opportunity to cooperate like the others. He refused. He could have cooperated as late as two months ago. He tried suing in federal court instead. If you don't take the prosecutor's generous deal then you cannot complain about not receiving a reduced sentence.

[whforrest]

However you view the news today, I am personally relieved. No more people posting about Lance's innocence. I think it is safe to say most of us want to move forward from this long chapter of pro cycling. I just wish Lance could admit his wrongdoing and move on. This is the land of second chances after all.

[William]

So the question is..."What do you do with the current results?" If almost everyone was doing some form PED (albeit some may have had a better program than others), how can they pass the title onto someone else and know that this person was clean? It is obvious, that the riders could pass the doping controls, so just because the 3rd, 4th or whatever place wasn't caught, doesn't mean they were clean.

I think all they can do in the record books is...

http://www.teamforrest.com/asterisk-by-digium.gif



They were all doped up. Either that or give it to the last placed guy. http://www.americananglersfishing.com/Smileys/default/shrug.gif





William

[jimcav]

So Barry was doped at his 2003 worlds performance....big surprise. But funny how so many people have defended people like him over the years cause he's such a nice guy.....duh..

And I think it sucks that Lance gets a harsher penalty than these guys. They all made choices.

he isn't just a rider--he is targeted and sanctioned for riding, and as an owner and facilitator. They all made choices--and Lance made one to NOT cooperate and help clean up the sport. That is what gets me--he is a leader in the cycling world--he could have made a big difference if he spent as much time/money/energy to work for clean cycling as he did to dope his team and deny it. Now he can only make a difference in disgrace.

[mistermo]

And I think it sucks that Lance gets a harsher penalty than these guys. They all made choices.

Yeah, and Lance made the choice to not cooperate and to keep on denyin'. Every day of the week, the legal system offers leniency for those who cooperate. Otherwise, what incentive is there to come clean?

I'm mystified by those who think that those who voluntarily cooperate should receive the same penalty as those who voluntarily won't.

[merlincustom1]

However you view the news today, I am personally relieved. No more people posting about Lance's innocence. I think it is safe to say most of us want to move forward from this long chapter of pro cycling. I just wish Lance could admit his wrongdoing and move on. This is the land of second chances after all.

Many people, especially the non-cycling general public, will continue to believe Lance.

[Elefantino]

Good question from ATH:

Leipheimer was busted for a substance violation (ephedrine) following his 1996 national criterium championships win. His victory was expunged from the record and he was suspended for three months.

This is his second doping suspension. By law, shouldn't he be banned for life?

[Vientomas]

However you view the news today, I am personally relieved. No more people posting about Lance's innocence...

Don't bet on that.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Shouldn't all these guys get stripped of any results for the years they admitted to doping, irrespective of whether they cooperated? I can understand the leniency for the length of ban in exchange for their cooperation, but not for allowing their results to stand.

[CunegoFan]

Many people, especially the non-cycling general public, will continue to believe Lance.

The numbers will steadily decrease over time until they reach a tipping point, beyond which admitting belief in Armstrong will be akin to admitting belief in bigfoot. Armstrong is on the Pete Rose Express headed full steam to pathetic joke territory.

[Elefantino]

Shouldn't all these guys get stripped of any results for the years they admitted to doping, irrespective of whether they cooperated? I can understand the leniency for the length of ban in exchange for their cooperation, but not for allowing their results to stand.

Lance doped. His results were voided.

They doped. Theirs should be voided, too.

That means that Oscar Pereiro is the winner of the 2005 Pla d'Adet stage, in addition to the winner of the 2006 Tour. Both because of doping.

[oldpotatoe]

Shouldn't all these guys get stripped of any results for the years they admitted to doping, irrespective of whether they cooperated? I can understand the leniency for the length of ban in exchange for their cooperation, but not for allowing their results to stand.

Hit them in the wallet..have them return any winnings, bonus', product endorsement $...

[William]

Armstrong is on the Pete Rose Express headed full steam to pathetic joke territory.


That about sums it up.:)





William

[Germany_chris]

So the question is..."What do you do with the current results?" If almost everyone was doing some form PED (albeit some may have had a better program than others), how can they pass the title onto someone else and know that this person was clean? It is obvious, that the riders could pass the doping controls, so just because the 3rd, 4th or whatever place wasn't caught, doesn't mean they were clean.

You don't change the results asterisk them and move on...

What we are about to witness will not deter future dopers and has no tangible effect on past dopers.

[Tony T]

Shouldn't all these guys get stripped of any results for the years they admitted to doping, irrespective of whether they cooperated? I can understand the leniency for the length of ban in exchange for their cooperation, but not for allowing their results to stand.

The only problem with that is that it makes sense. ;)

[Gummee]

So we all know the reaction here in the US, but what's the reaction from EUR?

:ear

M

[EDS]

The problem is that European scene is the European scene. The domestic scene is different. Sure there is doping here, but it is not on the same level as Europe. The domestic guys have a right to be pissed that Leipheimer has been scalping victories here instead of battling it out with his own kind across the Atlantic. It is like Papp taking money from riders in the Pennsylvania area.

This is bad for the Tour of California, Tour of Utah, and the USPCC.

It is bad if we were still doping when he achieved those victories. If he was not doping during those victories, and I certaintly don't know if he was or was not, then it is hard to imagine he gets stripped of the victories.

[merlincustom1]

For CunegoFan et.al.: any knowledge, speculation, inneuendo, gossip, rumor, tea leave readings, etc. as to why Kevin Livingston wasn't on the list? Was he clean, knew nothing, saw nothing, got a special dispensation for working at Mellow Johnny's? His name didn't surface during the Fed investigation either. If memory serves, he did retire pretty early.

[christian]

What about Marty Jemison?

[echelon_john]

He likes getting a paycheck and hopes to continue to do so?

For CunegoFan et.al.: any knowledge, speculation, inneuendo, gossip, rumor, tea leave readings, etc. as to why Kevin Livingston wasn't on the list? Was he clean, knew nothing, saw nothing, got a special dispensation for working at Mellow Johnny's? His name didn't surface during the Fed investigation either. If memory serves, he did retire pretty early.

[goonster]

But Michael Barry is such a nice guy. I don't want to believe such a nice guy would ever dope! :rolleyes:
It's really a shame, because he was quite adamant in his denials and responded with the usual smears when Floyd told the story about using Testosterone with him and Matt White in '03.

[54ny77]

holy schmoly, just read a few things, albeit very briefly.

makes for quite the sideshow.

[whforrest]

Hey.........Leave bigfoot out of this. :) Didn't you read all the signtings? Kidding aside, yes I agree. The people that continue to tow the line of Lance is innocent will come across more absurd, at least on this forum.


The numbers will steadily decrease over time until they reach a tipping point, beyond which admitting belief in Armstrong will be akin to admitting belief in bigfoot. Armstrong is on the Pete Rose Express headed full steam to pathetic joke territory.

[Keith A]

Hey.........Leave bigfoot out of this. :) Didn't you read all the signtings? Kidding aside, yes I agree. The people that continue to tow the line of Lance is innocent will come across more absurd, at least on this forum.I don't see how anyone could still really believe that LA didn't do PEDs. They might want to still believe him, but come on...the cat is out of the bag.

[weiwentg]

I don't see how anyone could still really believe that LA didn't do PEDs. They might want to still believe him, but come on...the cat is out of the bag.

well, 200+ people have signed a petition asking Congress to reverse the ban.

http://signon.org/sign/reverse-usada-decision

[54ny77]

what's the european take on this situation? anybody from over yonder care to give the unofficial european cycling fan observation?

makes me wonder how many names were really buried in puerto, including non-cycling athletes.

[Keith A]

well, 200+ people have signed a petition asking Congress to reverse the ban.

http://signon.org/sign/reverse-usada-decisionLet's see how many more sign this after today...so far there aren't any.

[bikerboy337]

that people will no longer claim he's clean, but complain about the process... ie. he never tested positive, so how can they ban him; it was a witch hunt; how come the others weren't banned for life; look at all the good he does; he fights big tobacco and cancer!; the other riders are just out to get him; he passed over 500 tests and was never caught, so the system must be bogus to begin with if he cheated the whole time; stop spending my tax dollars on this; and on and on and on...


i think that will be a little more tiresome personally...


I don't see how anyone could still really believe that LA didn't do PEDs. They might want to still believe him, but come on...the cat is out of the bag.

[christian]

To be fair, before Lance Armstrong, I was unaware of cancer.

[Joachim]

I am just really glad Bruyneel did not know about any of this.

[CunegoFan]

For CunegoFan et.al.: any knowledge, speculation, inneuendo, gossip, rumor, tea leave readings, etc. as to why Kevin Livingston wasn't on the list? Was he clean, knew nothing, saw nothing, got a special dispensation for working at Mellow Johnny's? His name didn't surface during the Fed investigation either. If memory serves, he did retire pretty early.

Livingston was a client of Ferrari. Several years ago when Ferrari' rider dossiers were siezed by the Italian police, Livingston's was among them. I cannot recall whether his time with Ferrari was purely during his time at Postal or whether he continued while with T-Mobile. His business link with MJ's would certainly make cooperating problematic.

As far as not cooperating, it appears that there was least one rider who initially cooperated, probably under federal pressure, but would not sign off on affidavits for the USADA's decision. Jemisen is rumored to be one of those. Perhaps Livingston did the same.

[54ny77]

My goodness me, does this mean that all those guys are the Milli Vanilli of cycling?

http://mostpopularunpopular.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/milli_vanilli-1.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Curious how Lance is going to go on the attack now, given that George Hincapie's reputation is pretty unimpeachable.

[pdmtong]

I don't see how anyone could still really believe that LA didn't do PEDs. They might want to still believe him, but come on...the cat is out of the bag.

phil liggett

[William]

Curious how Lance is going to go on the attack now, given that George Hincapie's reputation is pretty unimpeachable.


I always liked George but he toed the "clean" line just like the rest of them...albeit not as vocally as others.




William

[Elefantino]

Curious how Lance is going to go on the attack now, given that George Hincapie's reputation is pretty unimpeachable.

Lawyer: The report “will be a one-sided hatchet job — a taxpayer-funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories.”

[CunegoFan]

Curious how Lance is going to go on the attack now, given that George Hincapie's reputation is pretty unimpeachable.

The current talking point appears to be blaming the USADA for handing out unequal punishments, which is "proof" that the whole thing is a witch hunt. Apparently cooperating and non-cooperating riders should be treated the same.

what's the european take on this situation? anybody from over yonder care to give the unofficial european cycling fan observation?

Huggy Bear's word on the street is that Armstrong's opinions of the French revealed in either the summary or the full report will add fuel to the fire.

[BillG]

Lawyer: The report “will be a one-sided hatchet job — a taxpayer-funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories.”


largely -- Growth Hormone and Mike Barry make the "largely" irrelevant. A lot of people owe Betsy Andreu an apology.

[CunegoFan]

For those who want to do some reading. The summary. 202 pages.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision

[jimcav]

To be fair, before Lance Armstrong, I was unaware of cancer.

thanks--needed a laugh

[William]

After a little thought I decided to rephrase my last post...

I always liked George...at least his public persona... but he toed the "clean" line just like the rest of them...albeit not as vocally as others.

Honestly, unless you grew up in the same house with any of these folks, no one knows their true personalities. All we have to go on is their public persona. And that's usually a variable percentage of truth and an image that they want to project.





William

[CunegoFan]

Daaaammnnn! Top level doping is expensive. Ullrich at 80K for Dr. Fuentes was getting the bargain basement plan.

"While Johan Bruyneel continued as team director in 2003, and Luis Garcia del Moral continued as the principal team doctor, accounting records for Dr. Ferrari’s Swiss company record $475,000.00 in payments from Armstrong to Ferrari."

[FlashUNC]

After a little thought I decided to rephrase my last post...



Honestly, unless you grew up in the same house with any of these folks, no one knows their true personalities. All we have to go on is their public persona. And that's usually a variable percentage of truth and an image that they want to project.





William

A fair point, but unlike the prior public accusers, George doesn't have some very public embarassments as it relates to doping. He doesn't have Tyler's vestigial twin positive, or Floyd's very public saga of "No I didn't, okay, I really did."

My point was that there's very little public ammo Lance's team can point to about George -- who at least publicly has a sterling reputation and widely viewed as a "nice guy" in pro cycling.

Tougher to lash out at that type than the guy who raised millions for his defense, only to come out and say he did commit the crime.

[Elefantino]

I am just really glad Bruyneel did not know about any of this.
;)

The overwhelming evidence in this case is that Johan Bruyneel was intimately involved in all significant details of the U.S. Postal team’s doping program. He alerted the team to the likely presence of testers. He communicated with Dr. Ferrari about his stars’ doping programs. He was on top of the details for organizing blood transfusion programs before the major Tours, and he knew when athletes needed to take EPO to regenerate their blood supply after extracting blood. He was present when blood transfusions were given. He even personally provided drugs to the riders on occasion.

Most perniciously, Johan Bruyneel learned how to introduce young men to performance enhancing drugs, becoming adept at leading them down the path from newly minted professional rider to veteran drug user.

[simple]

Well, now that this is all out of the way we can turn the page at the end of a dark chapter in cycling. Surely, we are now past all of this.

How about that young Liquigas-Cannondale rider who seems to be able to win anything, anytime, all the time. Isn't he something?

[katematt]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578048672603746526.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

[tuxbailey]

;)

The overwhelming evidence in this case is that Johan Bruyneel was intimately involved in all significant details of the U.S. Postal team’s doping program. He alerted the team to the likely presence of testers. He communicated with Dr. Ferrari about his stars’ doping programs. He was on top of the details for organizing blood transfusion programs before the major Tours, and he knew when athletes needed to take EPO to regenerate their blood supply after extracting blood. He was present when blood transfusions were given. He even personally provided drugs to the riders on occasion.

Most perniciously, Johan Bruyneel learned how to introduce young men to performance enhancing drugs, becoming adept at leading them down the path from newly minted professional rider to veteran drug user.


In other words, an excellent team manager...

And

drug dealer :)

[Elefantino]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578048672603746526.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

"It was the sport's fault" :confused:

[tuxbailey]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578048672603746526.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

" I won't lie about it—I have to own it—I accept responsibility for my decision.'

well, I really wish Lance will say this. Say it now, before it is all over. But it may be too late now.

[BumbleBeeDave]

that people will no longer claim he's clean, but complain about the process... ie. he never tested positive, so how can they ban him; it was a witch hunt; how come the others weren't banned for life; look at all the good he does; he fights big tobacco and cancer!; the other riders are just out to get him; he passed over 500 tests and was never caught, so the system must be bogus to begin with if he cheated the whole time; stop spending my tax dollars on this; and on and on and on...


i think that will be a little more tiresome personally...

. . . see Armstrong's lawyers and PR flacks peddling and trying to stoke these same viewpoints.

BBD

[Tony T]

. . . see Armstrong's lawyers and PR flacks peddling and trying to stoke these same viewpoints.

link por favor (other than the one quote in today's story)

[maccpres]

"That means that Oscar Pereiro is the winner of the 2005 Pla d'Adet stage, in addition to the winner of the 2006 Tour. Both because of doping."

Do you really think Oscar wasn't doping? C'mon Man

[CunegoFan]

. . . see Armstrong's lawyers and PR flacks peddling and trying to stoke these same viewpoints.

BBD

He will rely on getting sympathy with the new "Look."

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/24/article-2192864-148BED5A000005DC-640_634x591.jpg

[GuyGadois]

One of the more intriguing stories in Tyler's book was when Pantani went out on a suicidal break and postal couldn't catch him. Armstrong was pissed off and demanded Johan get Ferrari on the phone during the race and calculate the watts and exertion and figure if he could stay away. Ferrari calculated that he could not stay away and was right. Calling Ferrari from the team car in the middle of the race? Wow.

GG

[54ny77]

Well and now it's Barry.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/reversing-earlier-denial-barry-admits-to-doping-at-u-s-postal_256610

Sucks gettin' caught lyin', eh?

http://veloptimum.net/velonouvelles/10/ART/5mai/TorontoStar20B.htm

" “That’s something my father taught me when I was a young kid. That’s always been the most important thing to me. I’ve always made my own finish line. It’s about the feeling of elation when I finish a race and to be able to sleep well at night.”

Barry said he will sleep well despite Landis’ allegations.

“I’ve always raced clean and that was the goal since I was a kid,” said the three-time Olympian. “My mother put those values into me and my mother made me promise I would go back to school the minute I felt I wasn’t progressing. Having their support has been crucial in all this.”"


Really, ya just can't make this kind of ^%#! up.

[goonster]

link por favor (other than the one quote in today's story)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-lawyer-attacks-pending-usada-report

De nada.

[BumbleBeeDave]

link por favor (other than the one quote in today's story)

I am predicting these will be themes that you will see in the coming days whenever they give statements--if they give statements at all.

I would feel sorry for Armstrong's PR flacks if it weren't for the dollars I know they are raking in for this . . . being tasked with trying to convince people that a pig wearing makeup is Miss America.

BBD

[jimcav]

Daaaammnnn! Top level doping is expensive. Ullrich at 80K for Dr. Fuentes was getting the bargain basement plan.

"While Johan Bruyneel continued as team director in 2003, and Luis Garcia del Moral continued as the principal team doctor, accounting records for Dr. Ferrari’s Swiss company record $475,000.00 in payments from Armstrong to Ferrari."

over $1 million
amazing no violence in the mix--there is more $ and potential disgrace/bad PR here--people have been killed to protect far less

[harryblack]

How long have you been following pro cycling, G-Reg?

What 'program' do you think Levi was on when he rode for Saturn in 1998 & 1999?

Not that Levi was only one-- not by a very very very long shot-- but really, such judgement and absolution ought to be measured by SOME sense of history.

I would hope they consider his cooperation and not strip him of any wins/placements.

Levi is simply a victim and now a fall guy for the LA doping machine. LA figured if he could make everyone else dope he could justify his doping.

I have no problem with the authorities cutting deals with the minor players of the Big Lie in order to take down the figure head(s). LA and JB. May they both burn in hell.

[fiamme red]

Well and now it's Barry.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/reversing-earlier-denial-barry-admits-to-doping-at-u-s-postal_256610

Sucks gettin' caught lyin', eh?

http://veloptimum.net/velonouvelles/10/ART/5mai/TorontoStar20B.htm

" “That’s something my father taught me when I was a young kid. That’s always been the most important thing to me. I’ve always made my own finish line. It’s about the feeling of elation when I finish a race and to be able to sleep well at night.”

Barry said he will sleep well despite Landis’ allegations.

“I’ve always raced clean and that was the goal since I was a kid,” said the three-time Olympian. “My mother put those values into me and my mother made me promise I would go back to school the minute I felt I wasn’t progressing. Having their support has been crucial in all this.”"Maybe he meant by "clean" that he always bathed before racing? :rolleyes:

[firerescuefin]

The Shaggy "It Wasn't Me" defense will be Lances next brilliant tactic.



http://www.slack-time.com/music-video-251-Shaggy-It-Wasnt-Me

[Tony T]

Both Barry and Hincapie have stated that they have been racing clean since 2006 (the year after LA's 1st retirement), so it looks like Pro Cycling has been clean for 7 years now. :banana:

[bikerboy337]

Pretty Crazy to see appendix AA... I guess not really, but come on... did I really think I'd see somethign like this 5 years ago?

Hincapie, Barry, Dave Z, Tom D, Levi and CVV all admit to doping and sanctions.. I knew it, but it still strange to see them actually admit and accept it...

2012-10-09 WB to Anders re. Hincapie Sanction.pdf
2012-10-09 WB to Berke re Barry Sanction.pdf
Acceptance of Sanction. Zabriskie.executed.pdf
Danielson Acceptance of Sanction 2012-09-26.pdf
Leipheimer Acceptance of Sanction.pdf
Vandevelde acceptance of sanction signed.pdf

[Germany_chris]

Both Barry and Hincapie have stated that they have been racing clean since 2006 (the year after LA's 1st retirement), so it looks like Pro Cycling has been clean for 7 years now. :banana:

Or there is new programs..

Pro cycling has never nor will it ever be clean..

[savine]

Who gives a monkeys doped or not doped, they've given us all pleasure to watch over the years. Build up heros n then knock em down asap, in my humble opinion its pathetic and I could'nt careless. When Landis won that amazing stage back whenever it was under the influence did we not all watch on speechless n in awe for five seconds? That bit of pleasure was enough. I say chapeau and hats off to all the boys, though being old school I'd preffer if the doping practises reverted back to speed n the suchlike.

[jlyon]

Or there is new programs..

Pro cycling has never nor will it ever be clean..

I just hope the racing that is televised gets back to the more exciting levels that we witnessed back then.

[Tony T]

Or there is new programs..

Pro cycling has never nor will it ever be clean..

Agreed. My sarcasm was pointed to Barry and Hincapie claiming that they were clean since 2006. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but why did they feel it necessary to make that statement? (other that to imply that pro cycling was cleaner since 2006)

[54ny77]

"I wake up and my mind and my conscience and my view on my life and my world, my future and my kids' future is perfectly clear.""

http://blog.saveapathea.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/crazyeyes.jpg

[laupsi]

Back about 12-15? years ago a group of my racing friends and I would train some w/Brian Walton who had just retired from Team Saturn. Brian was adamant then that the European Peleton was fully doped and thus he couldn't continue.

It's a shame really that hardly anyone knows about Brian despite his bronze medal accolades; not saying Brian was never a part of the doping culture, I don't know either way, but he did make the bold decision to step aside, ending his career w/out risking his health or sullying his reputation.

Brian is a classy/intelligent guy and the only reason he is, is because we don't know about him. I would think there were many more just like him which makes it difficult for me to feel any sorrow for these guys today.

[bobswire]

Hit them in the wallet..have them return any winnings, bonus', product endorsement $...

Let's not stop there, the sponsors should give back all proceeds from sales as well as TV and Internet sales received by ASO,Giro, Vuelta etc, etc. .
Everybody had a hand in this, just blaming the riders is B/S. and you guys should know better. Meanwhile the makers ,sellers and pushers are still in business.
Kinda like blaming me for the Vietnam fiasco because I volunteered and served there.

http://i47.tinypic.com/21opyso.jpg

[MarleyMon]

Armstrong is on the Pete Rose Express headed full steam to pathetic joke territory.

If you think PED use in a minor sport equates to a player & manager gambling on baseball, I wonder if you even know any Americans. :)
Armstrong will win "Dancing with the Stars" in 3 years.

[rbtmcardle]

.....snipped....

Brian is a classy/intelligent guy and the only reason he is, is because we don't know about him. I would think there were many more just like him which makes it difficult for me to feel any sorrow for these guys today.


this!

[Tony T]

If you think PED use in a minor sport equates to a player & manager gambling on baseball, I wonder if you even know any Americans. :)
Armstrong will win "Dancing with the Stars" in 3 years.

Don't see the connection to Rose. If there is any analogy to Baseball its to McGwire and/or Clemens.

[firerescuefin]

Don't see the connection to Rose. If there is any analogy to Baseball its to McGuire and/or Clemmens.

The connection is continuing the lie...long after the truth has been release and becoming an even more pathetic figure. The analogy will be spot on.

[Tony T]

The connection is continuing the lie...long after the truth has been release and becoming an even more pathetic figure. The analogy will be spot on.

Rose "came clean" years ago. Not so for McGwire or Clemens.

[firerescuefin]

Rose "came clean" years ago. Not so for McGwire or Clemens.

Check the timelines...his lying went on for over a decade. You'll will not find me defending Mac or Clemens anytime soon.

[Germany_chris]

This one will be locked before I wake up in 7hrs.

[Tony T]

This one will be locked before I wake up in 7hrs.

2nd time this 'prediction' was made. 1st by someone else who wanted to bet on it 6 pages ago.

What do you see as a problem, or find offensive here?

[Germany_chris]

2nd time this 'prediction' was made. 1st by someone else who wanted to bet on it 6 pages ago.

What do you see as a problem, or find offensive here?

I don't find anything offensive, but I don't have the lock button either.

As a general rule though if you or I get involved in a Lance thread it gets locked.

[William]

Both Barry and Hincapie have stated that they have been racing clean since 2006 (the year after LA's 1st retirement), so it looks like Pro Cycling has been clean for 7 years now. :banana:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KufRxIwLj6A/T7SJdM2gPXI/AAAAAAAAAaw/8Qer7b7pbaQ/s1600/bridge+for+sale.jpg





;):)
William

[Tony T]

...I thought I hit the 'sarcasm' button when I said that, but hit the banana instead ;)

[William]

I don't find anything offensive, but I don't have the lock button either.

As a general rule though if you or I get involved in a Lance thread it gets locked.

I prefer to be hands-off most of the time. Threads only generally get locked when cheap shots, bickering, baiting, trolling, politics, or out right offensive material gets posted. If everyone keeps a level head, basic disagreements and constructive arguments are fine. Contradiction is annoying but not necessarily a lockable offense.

So far this thread has been pretty good.



William

[Germany_chris]

I prefer to be hands-off most of the time. Threads only generally get locked when cheap shots, bickering, baiting, trolling, politics, or out right offensive material gets posted. If everyone keeps a level head, basic disagreements and constructive arguments are fine. Contradiction is annoying but not necessarily a lockable offense.

So far this thread has been pretty good.



William

This is every Lance thread..:)

[William]

This is every Lance thread..:)

Well, Most of the recent Lance threads have got a bit out of hand. So far so good on this one.;)





William

[Elefantino]

McGwire came clean.

[tuxbailey]

Armstrong will win "Dancing with the Stars" in 3 years.

That I believe. And he will have a fling with his dancing partner as well.

[djg21]

Interesting that the Fed's dropped their conspiracy case.:confused:

C'mon. You practice law. You know that the decision not to prosecute was a decision made by political apointees, and not by the U.S. Attys with primary responsibility for prosecuting the case. It doesn't take a legal genius to know what happened here.

[Tony T]

McGwire came clean.

Yep, you're right, I see now that he came clean in 2011 for steroid use. (although he maintains that it was after injuries and also during the off-season, but never to improve performance.)

[Rueda Tropical]

If everyone is dirty does that not make it clean or at least the new norm?

No

[fiamme red]

Hit them in the wallet..have them return any winnings, bonus', product endorsement $...Hincapie should give up his wife too. He only met her because she was a podium girl and was presenting some award to him or his team. ;)

[indyrider]

Hincapie should give up his wife too. He only met her because she was a podium girl and was presenting some award to him or his team. ;)

Hah! Cleaning beer spit out all over keys! Damn you, that's the post of the year!

[Grant McLean]

Back about 12-15? years ago a group of my racing friends and I would train some w/Brian Walton who had just retired from Team Saturn. Brian was adamant then that the European Peleton was fully doped and thus he couldn't continue.



Michael Barry said the same thing around 2001 after leaving Saturn.
He wrote an opinion piece for the globe and mail paper that i'm trying to find,
where he says you couldn't race in europe without doping, and that
he would never be given the chance to ride the Tour de France, his dream.

It wasn't very much later that he signed for US Postal, and I remember being
really surprised at the turn of events, but also not being surprised he was
never chosen by Postal to ride the Tour. Like many of you, it's been a long
time since a doping confession has truly come as a surprise. Nothing
should really be shocking about these confessions.

-g

[54ny77]

Davie Wiens wins Leadville 2009! :banana:

[54ny77]

Good read here (Hincapie affidavit):

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie%2c+George+Affidavit.pdf

Good lordy all these guys are so f'd it's almost surreal.

And Johan at the center of it all, directing traffic.

[rwsaunders]

I wonder if they'll begin discounting tickets to Gran Fondo Hincapie as it's scheduled to take place on 27 October?

http://www.granfondohincapie.com

[54ny77]

Seems a lot of guys saying they haven't doped since '06.

Is there something special that happened in 2006, besides Former Enron executives Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling being convicted of fraud and conspiracy?

[Elefantino]

Seems a lot of guys saying they haven't doped since '06.

Is there something special that happened in 2006, besides Former Enron executives Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling being convicted of fraud and conspiracy?
Lance retired.

[Tony T]

Seems a lot of guys saying they haven't doped since '06.

Is there something special that happened in 2006, besides Former Enron executives Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling being convicted of fraud and conspiracy?

The only reason that they doped was because Lance forced them to and provided the dope.

This is fortunate because if they had continued doping after Lance's 1st retirement, then the USADA would have to face the issue of looking into doping within other teams. So, good news is that doping in Pro Cycling was limited to one team and ended in 2006 :banana:

[93legendti]

C'mon. You practice law. You know that the decision not to prosecute was a decision made by political apointees, and not by the U.S. Attys with primary responsibility for prosecuting the case. It doesn't take a legal genius to know what happened here.

That is complete spin. In fact, THE prosecutor who was charged with handling the case decided not to go forward. Appointed federal prosecutors have primary reposnisibility for prosecuting cases and make decisions about prosecuting all the time.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/02/03/146367797/federal-prosecutors-drop-doping-case-against-cyclist-lance-armstrong
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/02/lance-armstrong-doping-investigation-closed-with-no-charges-.html

Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles announced Friday they were closing an investigation into “allegations of federal criminal conduct” by members and associates of a racing team owned by cyclist Lance Armstrong.
No charges will be filed, officials said.

"U.S. Atty Andre Birotte Jr. said the announcement was warranted due to reports in media outlets about the investigation. Attorneys representing Armstrong have previously filed papers in federal court alleging illegal leaks by federal agents about a secret grand jury investigation."
http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/meetattorney.html
"About The U.S. Attorney's Office
The United States Attorney's Office for the Central District of California (USAO) is responsible for representing the federal government in virtually all litigation involving the United States in the Central District of California. This includes criminal prosecutions for violations of federal law, civil lawsuits by and against the government, and actions to collect judgments and restitution on behalf of victims and taxpayers. The USAO is headed by United States Attorney André Birotte, Jr."

[Grant McLean]

"Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles announced Friday they were closing an investigation into “allegations of federal criminal conduct” by members and associates of a racing team owned by cyclist Lance Armstrong.

Probably a good call, since doping in the USA isn't federal criminal conduct.
The USADA seems to me the proper venue for this case.

-g

[54ny77]

i'd agree with what 93legend said there. systematic doping by individuals to ride a bike faster is unlikely a federal crime, right? it's under usada and uci jurisdiction, which certainly isn't feds. it's somewhat reasonable to assume why they didn't move forward.

consider that the feds will go after you if you fart bad and they think they can make a solid case to prove that yes, it does indeed stink and violates fed anti-fart-stink law.

if they had no evidence of a crime, but lots of plain ol' evidence of morally questionable behavior, they'd walk because a good defense attorney would have a field day with that.

surprisingly couldn't even pin a rico case on team lance. that means his handlers, which likely go waaaaaay beyond yo-han broy-neel, were good. really good. (unfortunately not good enough to bribe top usada officials....)

i'd bet a fed prosecutor could likely give a rats arse about getting tdf titles voided. that's not the end goal. he wants a criminal prosecution, that's it, that's what they're paid to do.

That is complete spin. In fact, THE prosecutor who was charged with handling the case decided not to go forward.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/02/03/146367797/federal-prosecutors-drop-doping-case-against-cyclist-lance-armstrong
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/02/lance-armstrong-doping-investigation-closed-with-no-charges-.html

Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles announced Friday they were closing an investigation into “allegations of federal criminal conduct” by members and associates of a racing team owned by cyclist Lance Armstrong.
No charges will be filed, officials said.

"U.S. Atty Andre Birotte Jr. said the announcement was warranted due to reports in media outlets about the investigation. Attorneys representing Armstrong have previously filed papers in federal court alleging illegal leaks by federal agents about a secret grand jury investigation."
http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/meetattorney.html
"About The U.S. Attorney's Office
The United States Attorney's Office for the Central District of California (USAO) is responsible for representing the federal government in virtually all litigation involving the United States in the Central District of California. This includes criminal prosecutions for violations of federal law, civil lawsuits by and against the government, and actions to collect judgments and restitution on behalf of victims and taxpayers. The USAO is headed by United States Attorney André Birotte, Jr."

[BumbleBeeDave]

I was under the impression that the federal investigation was looking into such offenses as conspiracy to distribute illegal drugs, launder money, etc.

Doesn't the program by the team to obtain and distribute drugs illegally to the riders in order to fraudulently deceive their sponsor--the USPS--count as criminal conspiracy?

This would seem to be exactly the crime the feds were purportedly looking for. As for the sudden, unexplained decision by a political appointee to shut down the investigation--pure bullcrap.

BBD

[djg21]

That is complete spin. In fact, THE prosecutor who was charged with handling the case decided not to go forward.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/02/03/146367797/federal-prosecutors-drop-doping-case-against-cyclist-lance-armstrong
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/02/lance-armstrong-doping-investigation-closed-with-no-charges-.html

Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles announced Friday they were closing an investigation into “allegations of federal criminal conduct” by members and associates of a racing team owned by cyclist Lance Armstrong.
No charges will be filed, officials said.

"U.S. Atty Andre Birotte Jr. said the announcement was warranted due to reports in media outlets about the investigation. Attorneys representing Armstrong have previously filed papers in federal court alleging illegal leaks by federal agents about a secret grand jury investigation."

http://www.justice.gov/usao/cac/meetattorney.html
"About The U.S. Attorney's Office
The United States Attorney's Office for the Central District of California (USAO) is responsible for representing the federal government in virtually all litigation involving the United States in the Central District of California. This includes criminal prosecutions for violations of federal law, civil lawsuits by and against the government, and actions to collect judgments and restitution on behalf of victims and taxpayers. The USAO is headed by United States Attorney André Birotte, Jr."

You are incorrect.

The decision to drop the prosecution was a political one, made by the US Attorney himself (Birotte) who is the political appointee who runs the office, and not by the Assistant US Attorneys who had responsibility for the investigation and case. The decision was announced by the US Atty on a friday evening before the Super Bowl (perfect time for a document drop), and apparently caught the prosecutors actually involved in the investigation by surprise. In fact, the career prosecutors who prepared the case had recommended prosecution, but their recommendation was not accepted by Birotte and his management (a/k/a the Justice Department).

It seems that Birotte should have some 'splainin' to do.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203315804577209511653273618.html

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-120210/surprise-decision-drop-investigation-lance-armstrong-looks-suspicious

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-02-04/news/31025848_1_doping-conspiracies-lance-armstrong-federal-investigation/2

[Tony T]

Doesn't the program by the team to obtain and distribute drugs illegally to the riders in order to fraudulently deceive their sponsor--the USPS--count as criminal conspiracy?

What I said.

The USADA said:
"USADA states it will "reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy".

So if the Fed's didn't have enough evidence for a conspiracy charge after "nearly two years and involved extensive travel, including to Europe, where antidoping agency and law enforcement officials met with their counterparts from Italy and France", its interesting that the USADA had its proof in much less time, and without leaving the USA

[54ny77]

Consider that US Postal wasn't the only sponsor. Suppose they were able to complete a forensic accounting audit and found that each USPS-derived dollar was accounted for in the normal course of Op Ex and completely on the straight & narrow? If so, nothing to pursue on those charges you mentioned below using Federally-supplied $, which from what I had read was the criminal hook they had cast. Unfortunately unable to reel anything in other than a lot of really bad sporting violation stuff that has nothing to with violating federal law.

However, one step removed from that is that riders spent their own money to buy drugs, i.e., that USPS-derived Op Ex that paid rider salaries in turn went to the good doctor in Italy. Hincapie admitted it in his testimony (a fascinating read, by the way--I posted a link in a few posts prior, check it out if you have time to peruse). He did it willingly and on his own, $15k/yr. to start. Maybe the Feds had a tough time establishing a conspiracy there, i.e., can't trace the USPS bucks to drugs and other sundry activities under a conspiracy.

In other words, riders bought the drugs on their own, with their own $. Can you bust them for a fed crime for that? I dunno.

It's a really twisted tale, no matter how it's carved up. Bummer for the ADA's & staff working on it, you know that sucked up major time.

I was under the impression that the federal investigation was looking into such offenses as conspiracy to distribute illegal drugs, launder money, etc.

Doesn't the program by the team to obtain and distribute drugs illegally to the riders in order to fraudulently deceive their sponsor--the USPS--count as criminal conspiracy?

This would seem to be exactly the crime the feds were purportedly looking for. As for the sudden, unexplained decision by a political appointee to shut down the investigation--pure bullcrap.

BBD

[Rueda Tropical]

You are incorrect.

The decision to drop the prosecution was a political one, made by the US Attorney himself (Birotte) who is the political appointee who runs the office, and not by the Assistant US Attorneys who had responsibility for the investigation and case. The decision was announced by the US Atty on a friday evening before the Super Bowl (perfect time for a document drop), and apparently caught the prosecutors actually involved in the investigation by surprise. In fact, the career prosecutors who prepared the case had recommended prosecution, but their recommendation was not accepted by Birotte and his management (a/k/a the Justice Department).

It seems that Birotte should have some 'splainin' to do.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203315804577209511653273618.html

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-120210/surprise-decision-drop-investigation-lance-armstrong-looks-suspicious

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-02-04/news/31025848_1_doping-conspiracies-lance-armstrong-federal-investigation/2


Its entirely possible Briotte did it for political reasons -but that doesn't mean there was anything nefarious. The recent sports doping cases hadn't gone well and it was an election year. Even if the prosecutors thought they had a slam dunk case the guys at the top may have been concerned about the political risks in an election year of it dragging on, garnering bad publicity and costing a ton. Had nothing to do with Armstrong's actual guilt or innocence or how strong the case was.

[Rueda Tropical]

What I said.

The USADA said:
"USADA states it will "reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy".

So if the Fed's didn't have enough evidence for a conspiracy charge after "nearly two years and involved extensive travel, including to Europe, where antidoping agency and law enforcement officials met with their counterparts from Italy and France", its interesting that the USADA had its proof in much time, and without leaving the USA

What makes you think the Feds didn't have enough evidence? Guys like Briotte base decisions on politics not justice being served or the strength of a case. Briotte was not very specific on the reasoning behind his decision.

[R2D2]

i'd agree with what 93legend said there. systematic doping by individuals to ride a bike faster is unlikely a federal crime, right? it's under usada and uci jurisdiction, which certainly isn't feds. it's somewhat reasonable to assume why they didn't move forward.

consider that the feds will go after you if you fart bad and they think they can make a solid case to prove that yes, it does indeed stink and violates fed anti-fart-stink law.

if they had no evidence of a crime, but lots of plain ol' evidence of morally questionable behavior, they'd walk because a good defense attorney would have a field day with that.

surprisingly couldn't even pin a rico case on team lance. that means his handlers, which likely go waaaaaay beyond yo-han broy-neel, were good. really good. (unfortunately not good enough to bribe top usada officials....)

i'd bet a fed prosecutor could likely give a rats arse about getting tdf titles voided. that's not the end goal. he wants a criminal prosecution, that's it, that's what they're paid to do.

They couldn't follow the money, so no criminal prosecution.

[djg21]

Its entirely possible Briotte did it for political reasons -but that doesn't mean there was anything nefarious. The recent sports doping cases hadn't gone well and it was an election year. Even if the prosecutors thought they had a slam dunk case the guys at the top may have been concerned about the political risks in an election year of it dragging on, garnering bad publicity and costing a ton. Had nothing to do with Armstrong's actual guilt or innocence or how strong the case was.

I absolutely agree with you (surprised?). There are any number of reasons (apart from the strength of the case) why the determination was made by the Justice Department not to proceed. It might have been fear of political fallout during an election cycle; it may have been political pressure brought to bear by political donors. What we can be certain of now is that there was reasonable suspicion to believe that Armstrong committed some crimes, and the U.S. Atty could have elected to seek indictments and prosecute.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by "nefarious" in the context of this discussion. In particular, I'm not sure what justifications for not prosecuting would rise to the level of "nefarious."

[firerescuefin]

They couldn't follow the money, so no criminal prosecution.

Not true IMO...

[Rueda Tropical]

I absolutely agree with you (surprised?). There are any number of reasons (apart from the strength of the case) why the determination was made by the Justice Department not to proceed. It might have be fear of political fallout during an election cycle; it may have been political pressure brought to bear by political donors. What we can be certain of now is that there was reasonable suspicion to believe that Armstrong committed some crimes, and the U.S. Atty could have elected to seek indictments and prosecute.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "nefarious" in the context of this discussion. In particular, I'm not sure what justifications for not prosecuting would rise to the level of "nefarious."

By nefarious I mean that Armstrong somehow pulled strings to get it dropped. Not impossible -but not likely.

In any case the Feds proceeding or not proceeding has zero relevance to the USADA doping charges. At this point with all the evidence laid out Armstrong's legal teams denial sounds like Baghdad Bob at his most delusional.

[CunegoFan]

Seems a lot of guys saying they haven't doped since '06.

Is there something special that happened in 2006, besides Former Enron executives Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling being convicted of fraud and conspiracy?

Hincapie and Barry left Bruyneel to ride for Highroad. The following year Danielson left for Slipstream, but he was on the outs with Bruyneel during his last year.

Puerto also happened. Several teams turned the corner because of it.

[Tony T]

What makes you think the Feds didn't have enough evidence? Guys like Briotte base decisions on politics not justice being served or the strength of a case. Briotte was not very specific on the reasoning behind his decision.

I see no other reason to not bring charges. After spending nearly 2 years, I don't buy that it was dropped to save $$, and as far as it being an election year, he could have put the case on hold until after elections. (...but since he's appointed being an election year is irrelevant)/

Yes, all IMO, but we're fortunate that the Fed's even announced that the case was dropped (they are under no obligation to do so)

[Tony T]

Hincapie and Barry left Bruyneel to ride for Highroad. The following year Danielson left for Slipstream, but he was on the outs with Bruyneel during his last year.

Puerto also happened. Several teams turned the corner because of it.

Had they not announced that they were clean, the USADA would have been faced with the prospect of looking into other teams.

Lucky for Tygart that doping came to an abrupt halt in 2006 :banana:

[djg21]

By nefarious I mean that Armstrong somehow pulled strings to get it dropped. Not impossible -but not likely.


We know Pharmstrong already tried to exert political influence through congresscritters such as Rep. Sensebrenner, etc. We also know that his attorneys are politically connected and have done their best to influence the Justice Dept (as they were ethically obligated and paid by Pharmstromg to do).

We'll have to see what leaks. IME, political appointees are all about self-promotion and self-preservation, and ***** flows downhill. There is egg on the faces of Birotte and the Justice Dept. Officials who made the decision to drop the investigation, and there likely will be a round of finger pointing before this goes away. I'd really hate to be the AUSA who was responsible for the investigation at this point.

[Rueda Tropical]

I see no other reason to not bring charges. After spending nearly 2 years, I don't buy that it was dropped to save $$, and as far as it being an election year, he could have put the case on hold until after elections. (...but since he's appointed being an election year is irrelevant)/

Yes, all IMO, but we're fortunate that the Fed's even announced that the case was dropped (they are under no obligation to do so)

Its all speculation either way. No one knows except Briotte, not even Novitzky.

The USADA case is not speculation. It's thorough and leaves no doubt that Armstrong is a liar and cheat. As far as all the confessions that all the doping stopped in 2006. That was the riders self serving explanations, not the USADA. I am sure if evidence was dumped in their lap about current doping they would act on it just as they acted on the Armstrong evidence that came to them.

[rustychisel]

Had they not announced that they were clean, the USADA would have been faced with the prospect of looking into other teams.

Lucky for Tygart that doping came to an abrupt halt in 2006 :banana:

Yup, this. Healthy degree of cynicism duly noted.

Suddenly, when Lance retired and US Postal morphed into something else, a number of key riders all made a simultaneous decision not to dope themselves silly, having come to the realisation through years of seeing a systematic effort at the team level that they had a much better chance of winning if they were clean.

Not only is this entirely plausible, it seems to fit the facts. Now, where's that confounded bridge?

[54ny77]

"Six yearrrrrrrrr statuuuuuuute of limmmmmmm-i-taaaaaaaaaaaa-tions!"

http://journeytosamal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/led-zepplin.jpg

:D

Yup, this. Healthy degree of cynicism duly noted.

Suddenly, when Lance retired and US Postal morphed into something else, a number of key riders all made a simultaneous decision not to dope themselves silly, having come to the realisation through years of seeing a systematic effort at the team level that they had a much better chance of winning if they were clean.

Not only is this entirely plausible, it seems to fit the facts. Now, where's that confounded bridge?

[majorpat]

A lot of guys walked away from USPS/DiscoShack over the years. One has to wonder if it was because they didn't want to be part of the mandated system. Cedric Vasseur comes to mind.

[rustychisel]

hmm, LA. Heartbreaker?

"well it's been ten years and maybe more since I first set eyes on you..."

[Tony T]

IAs far as all the confessions that all the doping stopped in 2006. That was the riders self serving explanations, not the USADA. I am sure if evidence was dumped in their lap about current doping they would act on it just as they acted on the Armstrong evidence that came to them.

Maybe, but I would expect the USADA be suspicious that so many of their witnesses only doped with Armstrong. Now, I don't expect the USADA to have addressed that now, but I would expect them to later.

[jbrainin]

"Six yearrrrrrrrr statuuuuuuute of limmmmmmm-i-taaaaaaaaaaaa-tions!"

:D

The statute of limitations for doping offenses is 8 years.

[cfox]

"Six yearrrrrrrrr statuuuuuuute of limmmmmmm-i-taaaaaaaaaaaa-tions!"

http://journeytosamal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/led-zepplin.jpg

:D

Funniest thing I've seen/read for a while. Well played

[Tony T]

"Six yearrrrrrrrr statuuuuuuute of limmmmmmm-i-taaaaaaaaaaaa-tions!"

I thought it was 8.

[Rueda Tropical]

Maybe, but I would expect the USADA be suspicious that so many of their witnesses only doped with Armstrong. Now, I don't expect the USADA to have addressed that now, but I would expect them to later.

It took something like 2 years to get this done. I expect a lot more to spill out which will likely trigger more actions. Unless the UCI manages to stay in control -they will for sure jump on the 2006 bandwagon while looking for the next Armstrong to support.

[54ny77]

oh well, the singer is doped to the hilt. no wonder he got it wrong. :p

The statute of limitations for doping offenses is 8 years.

[Vientomas]

Grand Jury investigation of criminal conduct:

"The possible crimes being investigated included the defrauding of the government, drug trafficking, money laundering and conspiracy involving Armstrong and other top cyclists. In particular, the authorities were exploring whether money from the United States Postal Service, the primary team sponsor for the first four of Armstrong’s Tour de France wins, was used to buy performance-enhancing drugs." http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/sports/cycling/federal-prosecutors-drop-lance-armstrong-investigation.html

The Grand Jury investigation was looking into activity that was related to doping but not doping specifically.

Don't forget the burden of proof in a criminal case is much higher than in a civil case. The USADA arbitration would have used a lower burden of proof as in a civil case.

[djg21]

The Grand Jury investigation was looking into activity that was related to doping but not doping specifically.

Don't forget the burden of proof in a criminal case is much higher than in a civil case. The USADA arbitration would have used a lower burden of proof as in a civil case.

I just read Leipheimer's Affidavit (http://www.scribd.com/doc/109638682/Levi-Leipheimer-Affidavit), and paragraph 100 is really bothersome. This is where Leipheimer describes an unsolicited text message sent to Leipheimer's wife after Pharmstrong learned that Leipheimer had cooperated with the Grand Jury. The text message supposedly read "Run Don't Walk." (A copy of the message was attached as an exhibit to the Affidavit, but is not posted to Scribd).

Assuming this true, I want to see Pharmstrong prosecuted for obstruction and threatening a witness. Putting aside that he has become the Pete Rose of the cycling world (attribition due to BBDave), Pharmstrong clearly is a thug who believes himself above the law. He should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and be put in jail where he can strive to become the worlds fittest inmate.

On edit:

18 U.S.C., Section 1512(b):

Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—

(1)influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding;

(2)cause or induce any person to—

(A)withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding;
(B)alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal an object with intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding;
(C)evade legal process summoning that person to appear as a witness, or to produce a record, document, or other object, in an official proceeding; or
(D)be absent from an official proceeding to which such person has been summoned by legal process; or

. . . .

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

[54ny77]

GOOD LORDY talk about voluminous.

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

click on the "appendices and supporting materials" tab.

the email exchange between hincapie and andreu...is telling. "i cannot understand how you can just sit around and let betsy try and take down the whole team....you were part of the team just like us....if he is guilty then so are you...she is attacking our livelihood....a sport that we love and work %$!#@ hard to be good at..."

[don compton]

I just read Leipheimer's Affidavit (http://www.scribd.com/doc/109638682/Levi-Leipheimer-Affidavit), and paragraph 100 is really bothersome. This is where Leipheimer describes an unsolicited text message sent to Leipheimer's wife after Pharmstrong learned that Leipheimer had cooperated with the Grand Jury. The text message supposedly read "Run Don't Walk." (A copy of the message was attached as an exhibit to the Affidavit, but is not posted to Scribd).

Assuming this true, I want to see Pharmstrong prosecuted for obstruction and threatening a witness. Putting aside that he has become the Pete Rose of the cycling world (attribition due to BBDave), Pharmstrong clearly is a thug who believes himself above the law. He should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and be put in jail where he can strive to become the worlds fittest inmate.

On edit:

18 U.S.C., Section 1512(b):

Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—

(1)influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding;

(2)cause or induce any person to—

(A)withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding;
(B)alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal an object with intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding;
(C)evade legal process summoning that person to appear as a witness, or to produce a record, document, or other object, in an official proceeding; or
(D)be absent from an official proceeding to which such person has been summoned by legal process; or

. . . .

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.
You live in a " Dream World" or should I say Nightmare world.

[Dekonick]

Unrelated, and on a tangent, but...

One of my co-workers is married to a cop. Her husband was doing motorcade duty this past week for a triathlon where Mr. Armstrong competed (AND RUINED THE TRI FOR ANYONE who needed it for ranking...)

Unsolicited - I ran into her @ work... she told me that (and she was a HUGE LA fan before) that LA treated her husband like **** - and that "he is an absolute asshole"

Just another reason I don't care if he crashes and burns.

Take it for what it is worth... I just know that this individual was a HUGE LA fan before... not so much now.

[Louis]

and that "he is an absolute asshole"

That's been said about him many times before, on this forum and elsewhere. Of course that alone doesn't prove one way or another that he used PEDs, but we now have lots and lots of testimony and data out there on that issue. So it seems safe to conclude that 1) He's a d!ck, 2) He's a cheat a liar, and a bully, and 3) He has done lots of positive work for those who have had cancer.

Time will tell what his net legacy will be. I know what it is in my mind, and it isn't positive.

[djg21]

You live in a " Dream World" or should I say Nightmare world.

You're right. There are some really fit inmates. Don't know if Pharmstrong could compete, especially since its hard to smuggle PEDs into correctional facilities.

[rustychisel]

Unrelated, and on a tangent, but...




I can relate at least half a dozen anecdotes to DIRECTLY CONTRADICT this from times when LA was in Adelaide for the Tour Downunder, including ineractions I have seen, and one my partner told me of a private chance meeting in a hotel lift with a young man, when LA went far beyond simple PR expediency, both with his time and attention. So there you go.... we all have bad days?

[Elefantino]

My mom is sad.

Lance and the LAF were so good to her. Treated her like royalty. Meant so much that when my dad died she wanted donations sent to Livestrong.

She is one person for whom the revelations will not tarnish the image of the man.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . So it seems safe to conclude that 1) He's a d!ck, 2) He's a cheat a liar, and a bully, and 3) He has done lots of positive work for those who have had cancer.

. . . is capable of both great good and great evil. It didn't take long after Armstrong really came into the public spotlight for me to realize that 1 and 2 are very true and that's what soured me on any admiration for him long before all of the doping issues.

But I'm also willing to give him credit for 3 and hope, really hope hard, that when he started the charity it truly was out of a desire to help rather than to just exploit the concept for personal gain.

In all of this, the people like Elefantino's mother are the ones who are really hurt the most. For all the players, they have a chance to do something in their lives to redeem themselves and as for money spent on lawyers and other losses. Well, it's just money. But for cancer patients who have had their hope shattered, that lasts forever and given the the disease, tragically many will take that shattered hope and heartache to their graves.

But if he did really just start the charity out of a cynical motive to gratify his own ego on the backs of cancer victims . . . well, in my book there's a very special place in Hell for people like that . . .

BBD

[jpw]

Bruyneel is a dead duck.

I wonder if Cancellara might now find a legal 'out' from his RNT contract?

[rwsaunders]

Bruyneel is a dead duck.

I wonder if Cancellara might now find a legal 'out' from his RNT contract?

I dont think that he will have to worry for too long about JB being his boss.

[Vientomas]

It looks like AS agrees with you - He's happy to say with RS. Why? Probably because he knows JB will be gone. http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/schleck-on-radioshack-i-will-respect-my-contact_256542

[Tony T]

I want to see Pharmstrong prosecuted for obstruction and threatening a witness.
He should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and be put in jail

But you're ok with Landis? (I only assume that as you don't mention his threatening (via his mouthpiece) of a witness.

.

[oldpotatoe]

Lives in Boulder, comes in often, came in to talk about his olive oil, for us to sell...



He said it seems like Christmas.

[harryblack]

Leipheimer should be banned for SIX YEARS!!!

If anyone wants to do a Kickstarter to raise funds to 'retro-test' Levi I'm in with $20...

While I have no problem exposing Lance as a sham... CONTEXT is all-important and it's obvious these guys are full of it.

The idea that those bums (and more) ONLY doped because of and with LA is ridiculous and inane...

As inane, btw, as all the yokels cheering their Garmin heroes in Colorado...

ALL indications are that Levi was a career doper before and after Postal...

'nice guy' George has long been obvious-- and his tifosi OBLIVIOUS.

funny too they didn't make drugs powerful enough to fix the half-witted minds of Vaughters, Zabriskie, Danielson...

Now what part LA had in PDM, Mapei, Festina, Telekom etc I'm not sure but I'm sure one of our resident ethicist/historians will tell us.

I don't mind, btw, that Horner seems to have slipped away-- I think there's more chance he's clean than hero-to-the-ignorant Jens Voight ever was. Which is to a slim chance but Chris has always had that lone wolf aspect so... it's not totally impossible tho' the Saturn years are esp. suspect.

I Believe Tugboat

But you're ok with Landis? (I only assume that as you don't mention it)

[cfox]

The idea that those bums (and more) ONLY doped because of and with LA is ridiculous and inane...

As inane, btw, as all the yokels cheering their Garmin heroes in Colorado...


first point, who thinks that? Levi admitted to doping at Saturn and Rabo...I have yet to read anyone stating their belief that these guys all stopped doping on Jan. 1, 2006

second point, the garmin thing with you is hilarious

[Tony T]

I have yet to read anyone stating their belief that these guys all stopped doping on Jan. 1, 2006.

A lot of the witnesses have stated publicly that they stopped doping in 2006.

[cfox]

A lot of the witnesses have stated publicly that they stopped doping in 2006.

I know that; Harry seemed to imply that civilians like us all believe what those witnesses said...see the next line in his list

[FlashUNC]

The more I read from the USADA, the more I'm left with one over-riding thought. Where in the world was the UCI during all this?

They are the regulatory body for the sport and it appears they failed, on just about every level, to curb doping when it was apparent something was deeply wrong with the sport.

The fact McQuaid has publicly stated the UCI bears no responsibility for what's happened is just icing on the cake of terribleness they've helped create.

[Vientomas]

The more I read from the USADA, the more I'm left with one over-riding thought. Where in the world was the UCI during all this?

On the payroll?

[bikerboy337]

Its all about the money... why would they step in and stop the cash cow? Its like MLB and NFL... they had no interest in stopping drug use in their leagues until public (congressional) pressure got to them... you think MLB looks back at McGwire/Sosa/Bonds and wishes it was different? They made billions off them and the excitement they brought the sport...

same with the UCI... they all are filthy rich thanks to the Lance and the culture of the sport during that period... it was not in their best interest to stop the doping...

thats my opinion of course.. i hope they dont sue me for libel :banana:

The more I read from the USADA, the more I'm left with one over-riding thought. Where in the world was the UCI during all this?

They are the regulatory body for the sport and it appears they failed, on just about every level, to curb doping when it was apparent something was deeply wrong with the sport.

The fact McQuaid has publicly stated the UCI bears no responsibility for what's happened is just icing on the cake of terribleness they've helped create.

[FlashUNC]

Its all about the money... why would they step in and stop the cash cow? Its like MLB and NFL... they had no interest in stopping drug use in their leagues until public (congressional) pressure got to them... you think MLB looks back at McGwire/Sosa/Bonds and wishes it was different? They made billions off them and the excitement they brought the sport...

same with the UCI... they all are filthy rich thanks to the Lance and the culture of the sport during that period... it was not in their best interest to stop the doping...

thats my opinion of course.. i hope they dont sue me for libel :banana:

Floyd? Is that you? :banana:

I've never supported a breakaway league more than I do now.

I can't wait to see what kind of stunt the UCI pulls with this.

[weiwentg]

A lot of the witnesses have stated publicly that they stopped doping in 2006.

like someone else said, there was Puerto. Landis was busted big time in 05. Hamilton also got busted. it's not impossible that many of them stopped or slowed down a lot in 2006.

then again, I read Leipheimer's affidavit. he's very, very vague about what happened and what didn't happen in 2008. he strongly implies he was not doping then in his WSJ op-ed. and yet he came in second at the Vuelta that year, coming pretty close to Contador.

incidentally, Leipheimer's affidavit was notarized by a Haven Parchinski in Texas. Tyler's wife was Haven Parchinski.

[weiwentg]

FYI, here are affidavits from Zabriskie, Barry, Danielson, Andreu, Hamilton and Hincapie.

http://storify.com/DigitalFirst/sworn-affidavits-from-armstrong-s-teammates

Edit: actually, I didn't notice, but the whole thing is up on a special USADA website. I was looking on their main site yesterday and I didn't see a link, but everyone's affidavits and most material attachments are there.

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

[54ny77]

i would encourage anyone to read those affidavits to really get a feel for what went on. either from that site or usada. it's really compelling stuff. i mean, staggering, really.

it saves the need to buy a book, read stuff online, read opinions, etc. it's the meat & potatoes.

the kimono is wiiiiiiide open now.

FYI, here are affidavits from Zabriskie, Barry, Danielson, Andreu, Hamilton and Hincapie.

http://storify.com/DigitalFirst/sworn-affidavits-from-armstrong-s-teammates

[christian]

My thoughts:

1) The "sophisticated" doping program really wasn't that sophisticated. I think the shortcomings in the testing program are more obvious than ever.

2) The email from Hein Verbruggen to Floyd really takes the cake for me and demonstrates what a corrupt, venal, and mendacious organization UCI is and has been.

[happycampyer]

i would encourage anyone to read those affidavits to really get a feel for what went on. either from that site or usada. it's really compelling stuff. i mean, staggering, really.

it saves the need to buy a book, read stuff online, read opinions, etc. it's the meat & potatoes.

the kimono is wiiiiiiide open now.Kimono? What kimono?

I just wish that this could be done across the entire peloton, and through management (including the cycling associations and the regulatory bodies). There would be no professional cycling for two years, if not longer.

[jpw]

Its all about the money... why would they step in and stop the cash cow? Its like MLB and NFL... they had no interest in stopping drug use in their leagues until public (congressional) pressure got to them... you think MLB looks back at McGwire/Sosa/Bonds and wishes it was different? They made billions off them and the excitement they brought the sport...

same with the UCI... they all are filthy rich thanks to the Lance and the culture of the sport during that period... it was not in their best interest to stop the doping...

thats my opinion of course.. i hope they dont sue me for libel :banana:

Yup, follow the money, always follow the money.

[54ny77]

good point, you're right.

it should go way beyond just the riders, and include mgmt.

sadly, and cynically, we all know they will be shielded.

it reinforces my belief that the riders are just pawns. the puppetmasters are flying around in g5's, directing traffic.

i meant kimono as to the day to day of how they doped and what logistics were involved.

Kimono? What kimono?

I just wish that this could be done across the entire peloton, and through management (including the cycling associations and the regulatory bodies). There would be no professional cycling for two years, if not longer.

[Rueda Tropical]

Bruyneel is a dead duck.



The Belgian Cycling Federation is turning over the USADA docs to the Belgian Federal Authorities who will be looking to see if Johann has broken any Belgian laws.

Maybe he and Lance could set up a league of there own in Paraguay.

[Elefantino]

Maybe he and Lance could set up a league of there own in Paraguay.
I should not have read this post while taking a sip.

http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Spit-Take-Movie-Supercut-by-Huffington-Posts-Ben-Craw.jpg

[firerescuefin]

Kimono? What kimono?

I just wish that this could be done across the entire peloton, and through management (including the cycling associations and the regulatory bodies). There would be no professional cycling for two years, if not longer.

There's been talk of a breakaway league for the last couple of years. Time is now IMO....Time to start over.

[Gummee]

Here's a question that bubbled up into my subconscious:

If the USADA knows all the info in the affadavits they know that pretty much all the people they interviewed said they stopped doping in 06. Right?

...then why continue?

From what a buddy of mine was sayin last nite on the ride: LA inc owns lallapalooza, Austin City Nights, and some other stuff. They're not hurting for $. I heard rumors of LA inc putting on 'extreme mtn bike events' etc. If you're not following the UCI rules, who cares who got popped for doping, right?!

M

[firerescuefin]

Here's a question that bubbled up into my subconscious:

If the USADA knows all the info in the affadavits they know that pretty much all the people they interviewed said they stopped doping in 06. Right?

...then why continue?

M

Huh??

[Germany_chris]

Huh??

Why continue the investigation? Busting folks doesn't serve as deterrent. Schleck and Condator both prove this.

[firerescuefin]

Why continue the investigation? Busting folks doesn't serve as deterrent. Schleck and Condator both prove this.

Bro..you continue to troll these threads while posting in others you're trying to stay away from them. There is an opportunity for real change....right now. Honestly, your Anarchy...F the man stance prevelant in most of your threads is tired and predictable, especially when it comes to this topic. You can't defend Lance anymore....so let's criticize the agency that was doing its job. I honestly doubt whether you even have an interest or any informed knowledge regarding the racing side of the sport.

[Tony T]

Bro..you continue to troll these threads while posting in others you're trying to stay away from them. Honestly, your Anarchy...F the man stance prevelant in most of your threads is tired and predictable, especially when it comes to this topic.


Getting bored? Time for you to bait and attack?
Nothing in his post deserved your comment.
Give it a rest.....or now you can attack me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . RIGHT NOW you guys or I'm going to lock it up.

I know you have been warned offline already. You all think we mods don't talk to each other? Give it a rest and keep it civil--or take your feuds offline.

:no: :mad:

BBD

[Germany_chris]

Bro..you continue to troll these threads while posting in others you're trying to stay away from them. There is an opportunity for real change....right now. Honestly, your Anarchy...F the man stance prevelant in most of your threads is tired and predictable, especially when it comes to this topic. You can't defend Lance anymore....so let's criticize the agency that was doing its job. I honestly doubt whether you even have an interest or any informed knowledge regarding the racing side of the sport.

you said Huh..

I was answering the Huh..

Not interjecting my tired opinion into the thread..there isn't much more I can say..

then again there isn't much more any of us can say sides have been taken

[CunegoFan]

For those who are reading the affidavits and want to know who the redacted people are:

Rider 1: Paolo Savoldelli
Rider 2: Viatcheslav Ekimov/Beltran/Rubiera
Rider 3: Adriano Baffi
Rider 4: Bobby Julich
Rider 5: Manuel Beltran/Ekimov/Rubiera
Rider 6: Jose Luis Rubiera/Ekimov/Beltran
Rider 7: Roberto Heras
Rider 8: Victor Hugo Pena
Rider 9: Matthew White
Rider 10: Jose Azevedo/Noval/Padrnos
Rider 11: Benjamin Noval/Azevedo/Padrnos
Rider 12: Pavel Padrnos/Azevedo/Noval
Rider 13: Chann Mcrae
Rider 14:
Rider 15: Chris Horner
Rider 16: Yaroslav Popovych
Rider 17:
Rider 18:
Rider 19: Steffen Kjaergaard
Rider 20:
Rider 21: Roland Green

Other 1: Emilio Magni
Other 2: Bjarne Riis
Other 3: Duffy ( or #5)
Other 4:
Other 5:
Other 6:
Other 7: Rick Crawford
Other 8: Geert Leinders
Other 16: Lapage or Demol (?)
Other 17: Andy Rihs
Other 18: Motoman

[Vientomas]

I have not had time to read the affidavits. What did Horner do or not do?

[Tony T]

I have not had time to read the affidavits. What did Horner do or not do?

Don't see him listed: http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org

[Vientomas]

Horner is alleged to be "Rider No. 15" in the post above.

[54ny77]

From Landis affidavit:

"I had learned at this point how to do most of the transfusion technicals and other things on my own so I hired Allen Lim as my assistant to help with details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare the transfusions...."

And all this time I thought it was ricecakes, man, ricecakes! I'm so naive!

:p

[christian]

http://img.skysports.com/12/01/640/Yates-Sean-WEB-RGB-HI_2698470.jpg

Hi, I'm part of the problem.

[ultraman6970]

The chinese guy (im asian i can say stuff like this, not being despective just generalizing) is famous for his rice stuff and energy bars, looks like he put some extra stuff inside too.

And what in the world horner said?? He is a chaotic neutral person so no imagine talking at all.

[holliscx]

What does redacted mean i.e. why are some people's names crossed out in photos etc? Is this a legal issue because they didn't have permission or what's going on with the blackouts?

[Tony T]

What was Landis doing in Connecticut?

[slidey]

I've been busy, so haven't been able to read most of this thread...so maybe this has been addressed before, but do humour me:

Does it strike anyone else as misleading that pre-2006, the pro peloton is viewed as Dopestrong's chain gang, with most riders carrying an injection in their jersey pockets, but post-2006 coinciding with Dopey's first retirement, the whole peloton is now assumed to be certified clean? Or am I misinterpreting the lack of investigation, due to the lack of any need for USADA to bother themselves with post-2006 era, as the peloton being clean?

[Gummee]

Why continue the investigation? Busting folks doesn't serve as deterrent. Schleck and Condator both prove this.

Precisely.

M

[firerescuefin]

Precisely.

M

Onesy twozees agree...Lance Armsrtong....DSs....Drs....the UCI leadership...game changer...we're not talking Jorge Jachske here.

Hence the huh...are you really comparing the two....because your statement seems to say you see no difference

[Rueda Tropical]

Precisely.

M

Why do we have cops? Arresting people hasn't stopped crime!

[CunegoFan]

What does redacted mean i.e. why are some people's names crossed out in photos etc? Is this a legal issue because they didn't have permission or what's going on with the blackouts?

In most cases I think it is because there is not enough corroborating evidence to name them. In other cases there are rumors that there will be additional sanctions at a later date. In still other cases the information is so old that no sanction is possible.

[Rueda Tropical]

I've been busy, so haven't been able to read most of this thread...so maybe this has been addressed before, but do humour me:

Does it strike anyone else as misleading that pre-2006, the pro peloton is viewed as Dopestrong's chain gang, with most riders carrying an injection in their jersey pockets, but post-2006 coinciding with Dopey's first retirement, the whole peloton is now assumed to be certified clean? Or am I misinterpreting the lack of investigation, due to the lack of any need for USADA to bother themselves with post-2006 era, as the peloton being clean?


The evidence on Armstrong got dumped in the USADA's lap. If someone is willing to rat out more recent doping they would be more then happy to pursue it.

The USADA is not making any claims about everything changing in 06. Those are the self-serving claims of guys who can't say they were clean pre-2006. Like Basso they are only admitting what they have to.

[majorpat]

UCI (junior varsity organization)

+

Cycling after 1999 Lance-a-palooza (the Big Leagues with Big League corporate sponsors)

=

UCI overcome by events?

[Avispa]

. . . anywhere I can search with Google.

Link? . . .

BBD

You guys are looking in the wrong place, for suspensions and such, look at USA Cycling, not USADA.

..A..

[froze]

I think once a rider tests positive they should be banned for life, this course of action would severely reduce the desire to take performance enhancement drugs by the pro riders.

[Gummee]

Onesy twozees agree...Lance Armsrtong....DSs....Drs....the UCI leadership...game changer...we're not talking Jorge Jachske here.

Hence the huh...are you really comparing the two....because your statement seems to say you see no difference

I think LA must have personally peed in someone's wheaties for em to go after him that hard.

That or we had mission creep happen. Hey! We gots us some dopers! They say they stopped in 06, but hooooey! Lookee here! LA was behind it all. Let's go get *him...* and it snowballed.

I gotta question motives here: 'why?' If you're aiming at the UCI, what's the alternative? The UCI is making noises about combating doping, but I don't see a way to make the entire culture go away unless you do away with the UCI. If they're not aiding and abetting, they're turning a blind eye.

Who is going to 'take over?' USAC? IOC? Who? Who *should* take over? IOW: who's going to make for damn sure that no one is doping in the future?

If the aim is getting 'the ringleaders' that are still in the game out, concentrate on those that are still in a position to affect younger pros (as a side note: I really hope Joe D doesn't end up doping! He's such a great guy) Bruyneel, Yates, etc etc etc.

M

[Germany_chris]

I think LA must have personally peed in someone's wheaties for em to go after him that hard.

That or we had mission creep happen. Hey! We gots us some dopers! They say they stopped in 06, but hooooey! Lookee here! LA was behind it all. Let's go get *him...* and it snowballed.

I gotta question motives here: 'why?' If you're aiming at the UCI, what's the alternative? The UCI is making noises about combating doping, but I don't see a way to make the entire culture go away unless you do away with the UCI. If they're not aiding and abetting, they're turning a blind eye.

Who is going to 'take over?' USAC? IOC? Who? Who *should* take over? IOW: who's going to make for damn sure that no one is doping in the future?

If the aim is getting 'the ringleaders' that are still in the game out, concentrate on those that are still in a position to affect younger pros (as a side note: I really hope Joe D doesn't end up doping! He's such a great guy) Bruyneel, Yates, etc etc etc.

M

We'll have none of your foolish common sense here!! :p

[Rueda Tropical]

I think LA must have personally peed in someone's wheaties for em to go after him that hard.

That or we had mission creep happen. Hey! We gots us some dopers! They say they stopped in 06, but hooooey! Lookee here! LA was behind it all. Let's go get *him...* and it snowballed.

I gotta question motives here: 'why?' If you're aiming at the UCI, what's the alternative? T

M

As far as the USADA's involvement it's got nothing to do with LA's character. They were handed evidence of widespread doping and they did their job. The UCI would have swept it under the rug, or ignored it and if the whistleblower spoke out they would sue him.

This USADA decision is as close as anyone's gotten to the crooks running the UCI. It may or may not bring them down but its going to take out a lot of the current doping enablers including Bruyneel and a slew of doctors and coaches. USADA counterparts in other countries are looking at the USADA document and we may yet see more fall out.

This has been the most effective anti-doping prosecution yet. Will it change the sport? Not if the UCI has it's way but it's still to early to tell if they will.

[dancinkozmo]

I think once a rider tests positive they should be banned for life, this course of action would severely reduce the desire to take performance enhancement drugs by the pro riders.

Pharmstrong never failed over 500 tests....

[Gummee]

As far as the USADA's involvement it's got nothing to do with LA's character. They were handed evidence of widespread doping and they did their job. The UCI would have swept it under the rug, or ignored it and if the whistleblower spoke out they would sue him.

This USADA decision is as close as anyone's gotten to the crooks running the UCI. It may or may not bring them down but its going to take out a lot of the current doping enablers including Bruyneel and a slew of doctors and coaches. USADA counterparts in other countries are looking at the USADA document and we may yet see more fall out.

This has been the most effective anti-doping prosecution yet. Will it change the sport? Not if the UCI has it's way but it's still to early to tell if they will.
If all* the people interviewed basically said 'I stopped in 06' where's the incentive to keep going after them?

As for your last statement: if it ISN'T going to change the sport, what's the point in spending all that $? The people that are most involved are either retired or about to retire shortly. Dragging 'the goose that laid the golden egg's' name thru the mud 'just because' does what?

M

[Rueda Tropical]

If all* the people interviewed basically said 'I stopped in 06' where's the incentive to keep going after them?

As for your last statement: if it ISN'T going to change the sport, what's the point in spending all that $? The people that are most involved are either retired or about to retire shortly. Dragging 'the goose that laid the golden egg's' name thru the mud 'just because' does what?

M


There are no guaranteed outcomes. If you do nothing, of course then guaranteed nothing changes.

If a doping agency is handed evidence of doping it has an obligation to look into it unless they are corrupt or incompetent. The charges also cover his come back -which happened after 2006. Don't confuse some of the busted dopers PR with the USADA case.

It is not the job of the USADA to protect dopers because they are 'moneymakers' and to selectively protect some riders. That's the way the UCI thinks and thats why the sport is a sewer.

[slidey]

I don't think justice is a time-dependent objective. You're either right, or wrong.

If Dopeheadstrong is finally dragged through the mud, which I hope he is, then as some people have already pointed out, it will serve as a very good warning to every athlete out there to self-govern. If people turn a blind eye to evidence pointing to a doper, then this implies that there is no penalty to being caught...(and I'm not talking of penalty from the UCI like the 2 year backdated bans, etc...these are like paid leaves), then this changes the game dynamics into that of a non-zero sum game. In other words, there is a free lunch being served...this goes against basic common, civic, and logical sense.

If UCI is somehow legally dragged through the mud with Verbruggen and/or McQuaid involved in this, even better.

[cfox]

http://img.skysports.com/12/01/640/Yates-Sean-WEB-RGB-HI_2698470.jpg

Hi, I'm part of the problem.

I think he tried to testify but no one could understand a word he was saying, so they gave up.

[Gummee]

Found this on Tilford's blog:

15 Hobbs // Oct 11, 2012 at 9:45 am

OK, so there are people who have been caught and people who haven’t. Those that have are now working to position themselves the best they can for the future given the circumstances. Now that they are in the net, public apologies and copping to “just enough” details with the enforcers are part of that. I’d like nothing more than pure honesty from each of them (when they REALLY started doping, what they REALLY did, when they REALLY ended, etc.) but let’s face the reality, perfection is hard to come by. Reminds me of the Bill Clinton line, “I did not have sex with that woman.”. Yeah, just a few BJs under the desk, huh? All of them are acting because they have to, not because they wanted to. The most amazing thing is that Lance seems to think he’s teflon, and has his attack dog attorneys framing the argument as if it’s only Floyd, Tyler and 500 not failed tests that stand between him and immortality.
As for the many cyclists still outside the net, the reason most haven’t been caught yet is simply that circumstances haven’t aligned for them to fall into the trap the way they did for the Lance brotherhood. They are likely no less guilty, and I think the cycling community recognizes this. Some will never get caught, others might. How many get caught is a function of the zeal and resources that get applied. We have to ask ourselves if the preferred path/goal is to catch everybody from the past (how far back, what degree of offense, what level of racing, etc.) or change the sport. I’m definitely prioritizing the latter. Yes, I want cheaters outed/punished, but not just to remedy the past if it doesn’t help change the sport. I hate to even bring this up but resources are limited as well. There is a long list of people that should be brought into the light as several other posters have noted, I’m all for truth getting out. I just hope the primary outcome is change. Real change, and I hope that current events will help to make that happen.
Steve, your call of BS is insightful and on target. I fully concur with your outrage at having been cheated out of your rightful opportunity to compete fairly and earn the success you deserved (not that you didn’t achieve qite a bit of it in spite of the obstacles). You rode against dirty cyclists throughout your career and watched them ascend the ladder of fame and fortune. At least you can sleep at night, and I also hope you know how many of us recognize the value and integrity in how you handled yourself. It was obviously rare and extraordinary given the times. It sure would be great to have a list of truly clean cyclists we can all be 100% certain of, maybe you can create that given your experience in this. Let’s just hope the future is different. Since people don’t really change, and gaining an advantage is an all powerful motive, it will be up to the enforcers to manage this problem. The UCI has proven itself pitiful in that regard, and while the recent USADA effort can be commended it isn’t anywhere near the be all and end all. Racers, team owners, managers, doctors, event promoters, media, governing bodies, enforcers and more must be constantly vigilant and just like you call out BULL**** if we hope to win this one.

The bolding is for emphasis. He says what I'm thinking.

M

[Germany_chris]

There are no guaranteed outcomes. If you do nothing, of course then guaranteed nothing changes.

If a doping agency is handed evidence of doping it has an obligation to look into it unless they are corrupt or incompetent. The charges also cover his come back -which happened after 2006. Don't confuse some of the busted dopers PR with the USADA case.

It is not the job of the USADA to protect dopers because they are 'moneymakers' and to selectively protect some riders. That's the way the UCI thinks and thats why the sport is a sewer.

Or you could focus on current doping and better testing procedures. That guarantees change. Busting old dopers and striping then of titles does nothing tangible to the doper or serves as deterrence to the would be doper.

3 strikes did not lower the number of drug pushers and users what it did though was add people to prison roles. Punishing the past does not influence the future, the future is always more sophisticated than the past.

[Rueda Tropical]

Or you could focus on current doping and better testing procedures. That guarantees change. Busting old dopers and striping then of titles does nothing tangible to the doper or serves as deterrence to the would be doper.

3 strikes did not lower the number of drug pushers and users what it did though was add people to prison roles. Punishing the past does not influence the future, the future is always more sophisticated than the past.

The fact is anti-doping agencies are at a great disadvantage to the dopers. It's not just an imbalance of money and technology. The UCI has been actively working against their mission. When testimony comes to you you act on it. It's rare that an agency like the USADA will get anything from inside the sport.

Plus the whole old dopers -it's got nothing to do with today story is pure BS generated from Armstrong's PR machine. Last I checked Radioshack, Bruyneel, Riis, the Liquigas squad (who have been connected to Ferrari in testimony) and Ferrari himself are all central players in the sport today. This could still effect riders like Contador and more in management. The USADA's counterparts are reviewing the evidence and it's likely we will see further action not just from anti-doping agencies but also some criminal action in some countries. It looks like the Italian authorities are bringing criminal charges against Ferrari. This is far from over.

Lastly, this is the first time that the corrupt management of the UCI has been pressured by an anti-doping investigation. So the tired 'lets move on that was all in the past' meme put out there by Armstrong and that we are sure to hear from the UCI and all the riders who have been "clean since 06" is complete BS.

[Germany_chris]

The fact is anti-doping agencies are at a great disadvantage to the dopers. It's not just an imbalance of money and technology. The UCI has been actively working against their mission. When testimony comes to you you act on it. It's rare that an agency like the USADA will get anything from inside the sport.

Plus the whole old dopers -it's got nothing to do with today story is pure BS generated from Armstrong's PR machine. Last I checked Radioshack, Bruyneel, Riis, the Liquigas squad (who have been connected to Ferrari in testimony) and Ferrari himself are all central players in the sport today. This could still effect riders like Contador and more in management. The USADA's counterparts are reviewing the evidence and it's likely we will see further action not just from anti-doping agencies but also some criminal action in some countries. It looks like the Italian authorities are bringing criminal charges against Ferrari. This is far from over.

Lastly, this is the first time that the corrupt management of the UCI has been pressured by an anti-doping investigation. So the tired 'lets move on that was all in the past' meme put out there by Armstrong and that we are sure to hear from the UCI and all the riders who have been "clean since 06" is complete BS.

You don't accomplish what you trying to accomplish with the action that are being set out..

With evidence against RS, investigate active RS members. Same applies to LG. Buryneel is banned and will remain so.

The best part is it still won't fix doping in cycling. The only way to removing doping from cycling is to remove the reward. With the reward gone cycling is gone or moved back to niche.

The Peloton is a doped now as it always has been they're just better at it. The hundreds of millions the USG spent on this investigation is less than the doping doctors do to defeat them.

[froze]

I've mentioned this before on other forums, but I experienced the same outrage when I lived and raced in California as a CAT3. I knew fellow racers that I was friends with that doped and they even tried to get me to it which I refused knowing these guys and others were doping and winning races that I could have had I doped, and because I wasn't that good and I didn't dope I was never able to move forward. We were never subject to testing either. This is why I believe anyone caught doping should be banned for life, either that or legalize it and forget it. If you ban racers for life it may scare them enough that the entire pro circuit will stop using. But these silly slap on the wrist bans and fines is just nuts, and the fact that the testing is random the riders know it could take 3 years before they get tested so with the silly fines and short bans it's worth the risk.

This doping stuff goes on in all sports. I dated a pro tennis player back in my racing days and she doped! And she even tried to get me to dope to do better in racing...talk about pressure! And other tennis players I knew through her all doped. I can go on and on about this but it would bore you all, but you get the idea.

[mcteague]

Pharmstrong never failed over 500 tests....

Except for the one he paid the UCI to sweep under the carpet, allegedly. The UCI says the money LA gave them was for testing equipment, for which they have no receipts. :confused:

Anyway, read the affidavits. The "best" doctors were well ahead of the curve. If a rider followed their advice they stood very little chance of getting caught. Athletes in other sports got busted for other reasons, also after having never failed a drug test.

Tim

[Rueda Tropical]

The best part is it still won't fix doping in cycling. The only way to removing doping from cycling is to remove the reward. With the reward gone cycling is gone or moved back to niche.

The Peloton is a doped now as it always has been they're just better at it. The hundreds of millions the USG spent on this investigation is less than the doping doctors do to defeat them.

I don't know what your point is. If you can't make the world perfect don't bother doing anything?

The reward is money and you are never going to remove that. It's pro sports, it's a business. You can't 'fix' human nature so it will always be a battle to keep the cheating at a level where it doesn't determine seasons standings and the sport's biggest races. Same as any business regulation you need to keep the cheats from dominating and putting the entire system at risk.

That's a realistic goal with the right management at the top (or at least anti-doping not in the hands of the UCI). This investigation comes closer then anything up until now in making that a possibility. It's completely shredded the Omertà and it's still way to early to know the fall out.