Please confirm my fears

[proletariandan]

(That I'm a dip**** who should stay away from bikes as nice as I'm lucky enough to own)

Actually, that I've destroyed an incredibly nice custom painted Enve 1.0 carbon fork.

Long story short: Lower stem bolt was clamped too tight without the compression plug being underneath it resulting in visible and tactile indentation on the outer and inner wall of the fork. Not a crack per se but I figure it might as well be, even if I cut the fork down so that the plug is actually underneath the stem. I'm assuming this means this incredible fork is now wall art and I'm going to have to call the builder (who I'm too ashamed to name) in tears and beg him to recreate it. Right?

Thanks,
Dan

[false_Aest]

get calfee to repair it.

[Louis]

Can you post pictures?

[rustychisel]

In a situation such as this I really don't think you're going to get an answer through an internet forum* which satisfies your fears. Do you?


* caveat: with or without pictures, and even with formidable knowledge of this forum

[proletariandan]

http://i.imgur.com/CHODu.jpg

[proletariandan]

In a situation such as this I really don't think you're going to get an answer through an internet forum* which satisfies your fears. Do you?

Probably not. I think my best bet is to call Enve and the framebuilder tomorrow.

[Peter B]

http://i.imgur.com/CHODu.jpg

It's the logo in the lower right of your picture that should be informing you. Send the damage info and descriptive pics to your builder and bite the bullet if need be. Better that than biting what else might come. Not worth the risk! Take it from a guy with a healing collarbone.

[Louis]

Based on that picture I'd say you're scr3wed.

It's just money. Better spend a few bucks and save your face and front teeth.

Good Luck

[pdmtong]

it's toast. you've crushed a non-trivial percentage of the wall thickness and made the structural integrity asymetric.
move on and let it go. $hit happens....

[christian]

Confirmed.

[cfox]

Enve's compression plug is *****...it is way too short. I am guessing from the pics you used Enve's plug that came with the fork/bike. I used to like it because it is nicely machined and doesn't slip, but it doesn't evenly support the clamp area on the fork. It stops right before the lower clamp on most stems. I had this happen, to a much smaller extent, and I switched to a longer plug. My stem was tightened to 5nm, and the lower clamp made a very tiny impression on the outer wall (inner wall was fine). I sent a picture to Enve and they seemed to think it was fine. To the OP, that one looks like a gone-er.

[nicrump]

Dan, does your last name begin with an R?

[Keith A]

You can always recover some of your cost by selling the fork. Assuming it isn't real short already, someone would be able to use this on a bike with a shorter head tube.

[echelon_john]

cut it down before selling to reduce liability; don't true the purchaser not to use as is.

[proletariandan]

Enve's compression plug is *****...it is way too short. I am guessing from the pics you used Enve's plug that came with the fork/bike. I used to like it because it is nicely machined and doesn't slip, but it doesn't evenly support the clamp area on the fork. It stops right before the lower clamp on most stems. I had this happen, to a much smaller extent, and I switched to a longer plug. My stem was tightened to 5nm, and the lower clamp made a very tiny impression on the outer wall (inner wall was fine). I sent a picture to Enve and they seemed to think it was fine. To the OP, that one looks like a gone-er.

Yeah, I'm going to bring this up when I call them. Both bolts were equally over-torqued (thanks to a used stem with antiseize compound and me doing this way too late at night) but there was not even a mark on the upper clamp. What did you switch to? The profile design actually looks like it has one of the largest/longest compression areas.

Also, good point about cutting down the fork and of course including a disclaimer.

Thanks for the replies.

[lhuerta]

the compression plug would not have saved your fork... the ham-fisted torque that was applied to the stem bolts would have crushed the steer tube regardless. I would recommend a torque wrench and no more than 4 Nm on the stem fixing bolts...you really don't need more then that in most cases.

Also, just to restate the obvious, remember that the torque spec stamped on your stem is the MAX not recommended torque...if you reach the MAX torque and your part is still not firmly fixed then mating the parts is a no-go. And of course, don't forget to use carbon paste, as it will allow you in most cases to use less torque to firmly affix your part.

Lou

[cfox]

Yeah, I'm going to bring this up when I call them. Both bolts were equally over-torqued (thanks to a used stem with antiseize compound and me doing this way too late at night) but there was not even a mark on the upper clamp. What did you switch to? The profile design actually looks like it has one of the largest/longest compression areas.

Also, good point about cutting down the fork and of course including a disclaimer.

Thanks for the replies.

I used one that came with a pinarello I used to have. It is 5cm long, which is the longest one I've seen. I wished I had just used it in the first place, but I assumed Enve knew what they were doing with their own fork/plug combo. I suppose it's OK if you use it in conjunction with an Enve stem, which is the most carbon friendly stem out there that I know of. But with any regular old aluminum stem, I don't think the short plug is a great idea.

[cfox]

the compression plug would not have saved your fork... the ham-fisted torque that was applied to the stem bolts would have crushed the steer tube regardless. I would recommend a torque wrench and no more than 4 Nm on the stem fixing bolts...you really don't need more then that in most cases.

Also, just to restate the obvious, remember that the torque spec stamped on your stem is the MAX not recommended torque...if you reach the MAX torque and your part is still not firmly fixed then mating the parts is a no-go. And of course, don't forget to use carbon paste, as it will allow you in most cases to use less torque to firmly affix your part.

Lou

I agree, there was clearly way too much torque on that clamp, but the enve plug didn't help the cause. It literally creates an internal point-load directly above the lower stem clamp (on most stems). For me, 5nm (at least on the bumpy roads near me) is the minimum I've ever been able to torque for a stem not to slip, even with carbon paste. Any steerer that can't withstand 5nm should be pulled from the market. Enve forks are rated for 6nm. And yes, the torque number embossed on the side of stems are the max torque for the bolts not to strip, not the torque you are supposed to crank down on your steerer.

[Gummee]

You can always recover some of your cost by selling the fork. Assuming it isn't real short already, someone would be able to use this on a bike with a shorter head tube.

That's what I was thinking. Those of us that are just below the average could probably still use the fork.

At least it'll help with the sting *some*

M

[proletariandan]

the compression plug would not have saved your fork... the ham-fisted torque that was applied to the stem bolts would have crushed the steer tube regardless. I would recommend a torque wrench and no more than 4 Nm on the stem fixing bolts...you really don't need more then that in most cases.

I was using a torque wrench set below 5Nm. The anti-seize meant that too much torque was applied but there is no sign of damage to the upper bolt which was over the compression plug, which tells me that it very well might have saved my steerer had it been longer. This is my first 1.125 carbon fork and the walls are pretty damn thin - clamping anything on it without internal reinforcement seems absurd.

[cfox]

I was using a torque wrench set below 5Nm. The anti-seize meant that too much torque was applied but there is no sign of damage to the upper bolt which was over the compression plug, which tells me that it very well might have saved my steerer had it been longer. This is my first 1.125 carbon fork and the walls are pretty damn thin - clamping anything on it without internal reinforcement seems absurd.

That sounds weird...there is nothing wrong with lubing threads, in fact you should always put grease or antiseize on stem bolts. Torque specs for most bike parts take into account that bolts/threads are lubed. Enve's own stem comes with pre-greased stem bolts. It seems that either your torque wrench is way out of calibration or you "over shot" the wrench's click. Both are possible, but a true 5nm, even without a plug at all in the steerer, would never crimp a steerer like that.

[proletariandan]

That sounds weird...there is nothing wrong with lubing threads, in fact you should always put grease or antiseize on stem bolts. Torque specs for most bike parts take into account that bolts/threads are lubed. Enve's own stem comes with pre-greased stem bolts. It seems that either your torque wrench is way out of calibration or you "over shot" the wrench's click. Both are possible, but a true 5nm, even without a plug at all in the steerer, would never crimp a steerer like that.

Well this is a brand-spanking new Syntace micro-torque wrench so I'd really like to think it was properly calibrated. I bought it just so something like this wouldn't happen :facepalm:

My understanding is that anti-seize is different than petroleum type grease/oil in that it will much more significantly increase the actual torque applied. I know this well from my automotive days but I haven't used it since then and have a bad habit of working on my toys when I'm in the wrong state of mind.

Enve just asked me to send the fork in for inspection so we'll see what comes of that...

[Louis]

Not to be argumentative, but what's the point of anti-seize if you can't use it on a threaded fastener where mounting torque is important?

[Sandy]

cut it down before selling to reduce liability; don't true the purchaser not to use as is.

Excellent advice- A necessity I would say. I would also contact Enve and discuss the matter with the manufacturer and perhaps send them the fork for evaluation. Unless it is basically certain that the damage caused will have no consequences to a subsequent user with the fork being cut down prior to the sale, I would simply discard the fork (perhaps Enve will give some relief on a new purchase).

in the minimum, heed echelon_john's very wise advice.


Sandy

[jimcav]

I bet many (me too) could be interested if there is enough steerer. Also, consider what bianchi did for their boron steel--shoot structural foam in there; or find a plug that extends farther as you say.
I bought a used bike once where the guy had a 27.0 post in a 27.2 clamp--turned out, yes, it was a little crimped but i rode it hard for at least 2-3 years, this was mountain biking and it was a hardtail--so many hard hits of my ass on that saddle (165 pounds). It did break, just folded over one day on a hard hit. I think I'd ride that fork, but I also use shoe goo on tires...
Jim
(That I'm a dip**** who should stay away from bikes as nice as I'm lucky enough to own)

Actually, that I've destroyed an incredibly nice custom painted Enve 1.0 carbon fork.

Long story short: Lower stem bolt was clamped too tight without the compression plug being underneath it resulting in visible and tactile indentation on the outer and inner wall of the fork. Not a crack per se but I figure it might as well be, even if I cut the fork down so that the plug is actually underneath the stem. I'm assuming this means this incredible fork is now wall art and I'm going to have to call the builder (who I'm too ashamed to name) in tears and beg him to recreate it. Right?

Thanks,
Dan

[cfox]

Not to be argumentative, but what's the point of anti-seize if you can't use it on a threaded fastener where mounting torque is important?

this. anti-seize or waterproof grease will have about the same affect on torque values, certainly close enough for non-NASA spec bike parts. If anything, I would think anti-seize with metal particles in it would add more friction than grease and click out at a lower effective torque. Most manufacturers will specify torque settings and recommend either grease or anti-seize without saying to adjust torque depending on your choice. The only exception I've seen is Thomson who specifically says not to use anti-seize on their seatpost bolts.

[proletariandan]

Well I'm glad to hear this may not really have been my fault or at least that I'm not as big of an idiot as I thought. Will report back next week when Enve gets its hands on the fork.

[lhuerta]

here is a quick reference chart showing how MAX torque changes when threads are lubed...Lou

[Keith A]

here is a quick reference chart showing how MAX torque changes when threads are lubed...LouInteresting info. So how do we know what was intended from the manufactures when they post the torque rating for the bolts on a particular part?

[pdmtong]

the compression plug/cap needs to be near the steerer top so if you clamp there you dont crush the open end of the steerer tube.

if you are clamping the stem further down the tube, then you dont need internal reinforcement, only to follow proper torque else what heepned to the OP will ensue.

this is a bummer, but cut it and sell the remaining good portion ot someone with a 12.5cm HT

[cfox]

Interesting info. So how do we know what was intended from the manufactures when they post the torque rating for the bolts on a particular part?
most parts makers assume, or outright tell you, threads will be lubed on a bike and their specs take that into account.

[Keith A]

cfox -- thanks for the answer

[proletariandan]

So it turns out that Enve said the damage was significant but that they would only offer to cut the steerer below the damage and send it back. They tried to blame it on the previous owner, who is himself a mechanic, and didn't offer either warranty or crash replacement since I was honest about not being the first owner. I would have been upset but fortunately John from Landshark (who I can't praise highly enough) is helping me out where Enve wouldn't.

I guess I'm still curious as to what is at fault here. I now understand that compression plugs are not really designed/necessary to provide internal reinforcement to the steerer tube. That being said, I think Enve has either a faulty product or poor installation instructions/recommendation. They said their steerers are rated for up to 6Nm, where as my aluminum 3T ARX stem has a max 5Nm rating on it, and I had my wrench set around 4-4.5Nm than that when the steerer tube was crushed. Unless the anti-seize compound added significantly more than 33% additional torque than my wrench was reading or my brand new Syntace torque wrench is incorrectly calibrated...

[Black Dog]

Don't assume that a new wrench will be calibrated properly. Check it before you wreck it.

[cp43]

Don't assume that a new wrench will be calibrated properly. Check it before you wreck it.

Serious question, since I don't know. How does one check this?

Thanks,

Chris

[Louis]

Other than building a test rig to do it yourself, the simplest option is to compare it to a "known good one" (which may or may not be easily available to you).

[dave thompson]

Yeah, I'm going to bring this up when I call them. Both bolts were equally over-torqued (thanks to a used stem with antiseize compound and me doing this way too late at night) but there was not even a mark on the upper clamp. What did you switch to? The profile design actually looks like it has one of the largest/longest compression areas.

Also, good point about cutting down the fork and of course including a disclaimer.

Thanks for the replies.

There was a discussion about expander plugs several month ago. A lot of folks use and like the Specialized expanders (pic and info here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=817277&postcount=10 ) and they're cheap. I've been using them on all my bikes for the past couple of years, no problems at all/

[bicycletricycle]

i would ride it that way but it is less safe than it was before you did that. i would just check it every once and a while to see if it was getting worse or forming a crack.