Wheel Q's

[PsyDoc]

In a recent thread, many wrote that a 32-hole hub and 3x lacing (at least on the drive side) is what one should "desire" in a wheel build for "bomb proof" performance. If that is the case, then why aren't wheel systems (Velomax, Mavic, Neuvation, etc.) that use low count spoked wheels failing more often? The most recent wheel system, DT Swiss 1450, uses 28 hole hubs: radial laced on the front and 2x drive side and non-drive side and has no rider weight limit and a 2-year warranty. Is a 32-hole hub now considered "old school" or a dinosaur whose time has passed?

[ergott]

In a recent thread, many wrote that a 32-hole hub and 3x lacing (at least on the drive side) is what one should "desire" in a wheel build for "bomb proof" performance. If that is the case, then why aren't wheel systems (Velomax, Mavic, Neuvation, etc.) that use low count spoked wheels failing more often? The most recent wheel system, DT Swiss 1450, uses 28 hole hubs: radial laced on the front and 2x drive side and non-drive side and has no rider weight limit and a 2-year warranty. Is a 32-hole hub now considered "old school" or a dinosaur whose time has passed?

Those wheels do fail more often than well built 32's. Also, not every rider is easy on their equipment and weighs less than 180lbs. If you weigh 150lbs and ride smooth then you can ride lighter, lower spoke count wheels.

[Ginger]

It is a reasonable question.
It would be interesting to see actual warranty numbers for failed low spoke wheels. Not having those, all we have are guestimates of how many low spoke wheels fail.
As I have witnessed first hand several low spoke wheel failures both on road and mtb wheels, and I don't consider myself to be a high mileage girl any more, I'll be sticking with the 32 hole hubs. (on the theory that if someone like me who doesn't get out much has seen them fail, there must be some truth to the higher failure rate rumor...)

Anyone out there have actual # sold vs. failure numbers that we can use as the basis for this discussion? (Otherwise it's all conjecture.)

I'm sure from a fashion standpoint 32 hole hubs are old school. They must be, that's what I ride.

Ginger

[David Kirk]

Wheel and rim design has changed a good bit from the "old school" wheels to the new low spoke count wheels.

The biggest difference is that the rims have changed a whole bunch. Older 32 hole rims are smaller in cross section and not very stiff on thier own. They require many spokes to support the rim.

Newer rims are much stiffer and stronger due to their larger cross section and require much less support from the spokes. The spokes for the most part just keep the hub in the middle of the rim and support your body weight.

One of the reasons you hear compalints about some low spoke count wheels riding so harshly is because the rims need to be huge in cross section to deal with the lower number of spokes. This makes the rim super stiff in comparison to say and Open 4 with 32 holes.

It's sunny and almost warm.......ride time.

Dave

[The Spider]

less spokes require a higher spoke tension to keep the wheel stiff, and that tension translates into a 'harsh' ride to some riders. Of course one mans harsh is anothers' stiff (so to speak).

[ada@prorider.or]

less spokes require a higher spoke tension to keep the wheel stiff, and that tension translates into a 'harsh' ride to some riders. Of course one mans harsh is anothers' stiff (so to speak).



wrong!
higher spoke tension does not make the wheel stiffer
:banana:

[The Spider]

what does it do then yoda?

[kong79]

Wow! I was wondering the same thing this weekend while thumbing through the latest CC catalog. When I started racing in the mid 80's, your training wheels were 36 spoke for durablility, racing wheels were 32 with double butted spokes, and if you were really serious you would have a 28 spoke radial laced front wheel for TT's with a heavy disc for the back. Things have sure changed!

[Too Tall]

PsyDoc - Nothing much has changed when it comes to "bombproof" wheels. The term "bombproof" has a different meaning for a variety of people and uses. Myself, I think of it as the wheelset I build for rough duty, high mileage wheeset that I'll probably wear out because the rims became thin from braking. I do not ride loaded tours however if I did the term bombproof would include wheels that can take a much heavier load than is usual, may use common easy to get parts and are easily field servicable....bombproof :)

For the rapid rider with cash to burn bombproof might mean the lightest wheel you can possibly get away with yet still have a near zero maintnence wheel for a few seasons of training use....bombproof ;)

Low spoke count wheels are not by my estimation bombproof as they fail the "can I limp home with a broken spoke" test....but that's just my requirement....what's yours?

[divve]

what does it do then yoda?

Sufficient and uniform tension spreads the loads more equally and efficiently across the rim, hub flange, and other spokes. The result is less chance of spokes going slack and a lower degree of stress cycling on all connecting parts.

[ergott]

Sufficient and uniform tension spreads the loads more equally and efficiently across the rim, hub flange, and other spokes. The result is less chance of spokes going slack and a lower degree of stress cycling on all connecting parts.

What he said. Slack spokes are bad.

[Fixed]

In a recent thread, many wrote that a 32-hole hub and 3x lacing (at least on the drive side) is what one should "desire" in a wheel build for "bomb proof" performance. If that is the case, then why aren't wheel systems (Velomax, Mavic, Neuvation, etc.) that use low count spoked wheels failing more often? The most recent wheel system, DT Swiss 1450, uses 28 hole hubs: radial laced on the front and 2x drive side and non-drive side and has no rider weight limit and a 2-year warranty. Is a 32-hole hub now considered "old school" or a dinosaur whose time has passed?bro velomax mavic neuvation wheels do break a lot lets add american classic wheels too they have wheels coming every day. I don't know about the dt wheels that is on my list for next wheelset .cheers :beer:

[djg]

Those wheels do fail more often than well built 32's. Also, not every rider is easy on their equipment and weighs less than 180lbs. If you weigh 150lbs and ride smooth then you can ride lighter, lower spoke count wheels.

I don't know what counts as failure here, or what the failure rate is across various wheelsets. I've heard on the internet of Mavic Ks failing, but the pair of SSCs I've had since 2001 have never gone out of true and folks I've talked to around here have had good luck with them too. I also have some campag factory wheels that have been trouble free. I'm not saying that these wheels are what everyone should want (and quite frankly, I wouldn't have paid retail for the ones I have), but it's not as if all of the prebuilts with fewer than 32 spokes per wheel are necessarily, or equally, finicky or fragile.

[ada@prorider.or]

what does it do then yoda?


well if you go over a certain tension you go ever the elastic (read plastic deformation)flow of the material in other words damage it
read steel can have a higher tension then alu
you only can go only to the lowest elastic border (read plastic deformation)
going higher has no use

more spoke count is needed for stabilty reasons ,and for reasons like keeping a round wheel and load distrubution
also making a stiffer rim has advantage and disavantage
like riding comfort and more prone to flat tyre´s
and more other reasons

well a bike wheel is a complex construction
thats clear
:)

[PsyDoc]

Too Tall...my definition is the same as yours...the ability to limp home with a broken spoke. The only prebuilts I have owned were the Velomax Orion II's and they were just too flexy for me when I was 170-ish, but I am not overly hard on my equipment. For a number of years, I was a "32 hole 3x all around" kind of wheel guy. Now, I am more a "28-hole front (2x), 32 hole rear (3x drive side, 2x non-drive side)" kind of wheel guy. The 28 2x front gives me a softer ride as does the rear. But, if I pop a spoke on the rear, I can still finish my ride by doing nothing more than flipping the rear brake quick release.