LeMond speaks up again

[fiamme red]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-armstrong-has-been-trying-to-destroy-me-for-10-years

Former three-time Tour de France winner Greg Lemond says that Lance Armstrong has been trying to destroy him for over ten years. The now outspoken anti-doping advocate made the claims during an interview with Irish radio Newstalk in which he spoke candidly about a number of topics including his abuse as a child, living with attention deficit disorder, Lance Armstrong and doping in the sport...

[Fixed]

I love the guy great rider but he was shocked ?
Cheers :)
Those shots ? just vitamins

[G-Reg]

Lance hasn't just been trying to destroy him, he pretty much has destroyed him.

It gives me great joy to think that as of now, my Grand Children will only know of 1 American that won the TDF!

Greg LeMond!

[harryblack]

lemond = arrogant bitter has been... blames everyone but himself for his problems... abuse, genetics/brain chemistry, lance... built-in excuse his ill education too (i.e. no evidence Greg used his post-cycling career to pursue intellectual life denied him when younger)...

Q: did Greg believe in Indurain too? (Did he believe in tooth fairy?) I.e. if Greg "knew" dopers killed his career, how the hell could he have believed post-cancer Lance was clean? Uh...

I still like Dr. Eric Heiden a lot but re-canonization of LeMond is absurd...

Oh but clean cut blonde American superhero beat all the other dopers La Vie Claire... And Greg hunted (badly) so he wasn't just some shaved leg cycling "f*g!!!!" (as heard shouted from a Chevy Nova blasting bad '70s FM rock) in tight clothes and Oakley Eyeshades.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-armstrong-has-been-trying-to-destroy-me-for-10-years

[zmudshark]

lemond = arrogant bitter has been... blames everyone but himself for his problems... abuse, genetics/brain chemistry, lance... built-in excuse his ill education too (i.e. no evidence Greg used his post-cycling career to pursue intellectual life denied him when younger)...

Q: did Greg believe in Indurain too? (Did he believe in tooth fairy?) I.e. if Greg "knew" dopers killed his career, how the hell could he have believed post-cancer Lance was clean? Uh...

I still like Dr. Eric Heiden a lot but re-canonization of LeMond is absurd...

Oh but clean cut blonde American superhero beat all the other dopers La Vie Claire... And Greg hunted (badly) so he wasn't just some shaved leg cycling "f*g!!!!" (as heard shouted from a Chevy Nova blasting bad '70s FM rock) in tight clothes and Oakley Eyeshades.

Wow!

Did Greg do something to you personally?

[Tony T]

lemond = arrogant bitter has been...

+1

[harryblack]

Not at all (though I never got the magic "iron injections" he did) but Greg's victimology, martyrdom, excuse making etc has gotten long past ridiculous...

Likewise the double-standard he wants to live by re: his accomplishments and LA's...

Again: if LeMond "knew" or believed his career was shortened by dopers, how could he have EVER thought Lance wasn't just the better doper?

LeMond was a pampered elite athlete since he was a teenager, that's LOTS and LOTS of opportunities most other people never had...

Not to belittle the trauma of being abused or having a learning disability (consider all people with dyslexia who used to be misdiagnosed etc) but come on already...

Being an activist for those causes is swell but why are they tied up with his (selectively outraged) doping blather?

so maybe there were OTHER reasons besides Lance and Trek your life isn't exactly the way you want it? maybe Greg LeMond is, occasionally, to blame for Greg LeMond's failures and frustrations?


Wow!

Did Greg do something to you personally?

[ultraman6970]

All those super champions and non champions (human nature) are very proud of their achievements so maybe is just that (pride) and not arrogance.

[rustychisel]

Wow, some bilious crap here. :no:

[maxdog]

Wow, some bilious crap here. :no:

Well put, rusty.

[BumbleBeeDave]

"Not to belittle the trauma of being abused or having a learning disability (consider all people with dyslexia who used to be misdiagnosed etc) but come on already... "

That seems to be exactly what you're doing. You seem to come across as being as bitter as you accuse Lemond of being. :(

I'm fully aware Lemond has his own quirks and often wears his heart on his sleeve a bit much. But I would rather have his (apparently) heartfelt candor and judge for myself how much of it to accept, than Armstrong's sanctimonious hubris. Lemond may have just as much ego, but it's far easier to accept.

BBD

[Ray]

lemond = arrogant bitter has been...
Kinda like Lance... only the glory years are a few years farther in the mirror.

Must be tough to be that great at something and then not be... Never a problem for me! :cool:

-Ray

[VTCaraco]

Must be tough to be that great at something and then not be... Never a problem for me! :cool:

-Ray

Outliers are, by definition, different.

Having just finished Tyler's book, I sympathize, but also have a hard time relating. I wasn't blessed with outstanding cycling abilities. It's real easy to say I would have or wouldn't have ______(fill in the blank with doped, basked in my accomplishments, etc) with the very different set of experiences that I've gone through.

In the end, I feel a sadness for these folks. They've twisted and contorted into these unfortunate positions. They have had a lot, but it's clear that it's cost them a lot...

I'm glad that I've lived my life on the more likely side of extraordinary.

[Ray]

Wow, listen to that interview with Lemond and listen to almost any press conference with Lance and tell me who sounds bitter...

Lemond sounds sad and somewhat resigned, but not bitter. Lance almost never sounds less than angry.

-Ray

[C50]

I hesitate to jump into these LeMond/Armstrong discussions because everyone has their opinions and thats cool with me but one of the questions should have been easily answered by reading the article. LeMond like a lot of us hoped/believed/wanted the Festina Affair of 1998 to change things. That is why Greg was behind Lance in 1999. A comeback, unbelievable work ethic, and super human physical gifts - all stuff he could relate too but when you hear that his real coach is Dr. Ferrari (sorry Chris Charmichael) and his history and baggage the desire to believe becomes tainted. Real tainted.

As far as Greg beyond cycling, if you really knew him and his business ventures you would know that he is much more successful in real estate and other ventures then he ever was in the cycling business. Some people point to various lawsuits tied to those ventures and I point to the fact that the courts sided with him in all of them. Greg isn't afraid to say what he believes even when it isn't popular but someone point out to me something he has said that hasn't ultimately proven true. If you doubt me just do a search for the converstion he recorded (for his protection) with Stephanie McIlvain regarding Lance and drugs. You can listen to the whole 15-20 minutes if you like and I think it would be good for people to go back with everything that has come out since and realize who has been telling the unpopular truth all along. You may not care for him, you may not like (and he is a very likeable fun guy in person) but you can not accuse him of saying things that aren't accurate. Bitter and jealous over Lance winning more Tours - absolutely not - angry he did it in a way that is killing the sport that he loves - yes!

[FlashUNC]

How anybody can think Greg LeMond comes out of this whole saga looking worse than Lance is beyond me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . when he was there to host a charity ride for a local cause, I can testify that he is indeed a VERY approachable and likable guy. I followed the charity ride with my moto driver to get some photos for the promoter.

There were only about 75 people on the ride, and several ride participants confirmed for me afterward what I had been seeing in the ride . . . he made a real effort to drift back and forth in the pack and make sure and connect personally with everybody who was riding.

Also, on Sunday after the races were over I was sitting at the bar in the Cambridge Hotel talking with an employee who had gotten off work and was also sitting there. Greg came down the stairs of the hotel and could be seen through the glass doors behind the bar. When the bartender opened them for something the chef sitting with me called out to Greg after I had pointed him out. Gerg smiled and waved and I thought that was that.

But he finished his conversation, then came into the bar to speak with us for a few minutes. He was gregarious, friendly, patient with everybody, and thoroughly likable. If he's a bitter and angry man he was disguising it pretty well that day.

BBD

[laupsi]

I hesitate to jump into these LeMond/Armstrong discussions because everyone has their opinions and thats cool with me but one of the questions should have been easily answered by reading the article. LeMond like a lot of us hoped/believed/wanted the Festina Affair of 1998 to change things. That is why Greg was behind Lance in 1999. A comeback, unbelievable work ethic, and super human physical gifts - all stuff he could relate too but when you hear that his real coach is Dr. Ferrari (sorry Chris Charmichael) and his history and baggage the desire to believe becomes tainted. Real tainted.

As far as Greg beyond cycling, if you really knew him and his business ventures you would know that he is much more successful in real estate and other ventures then he ever was in the cycling business. Some people point to various lawsuits tied to those ventures and I point to the fact that the courts sided with him in all of them. Greg isn't afraid to say what he believes even when it isn't popular but someone point out to me something he has said that hasn't ultimately proven true. If you doubt me just do a search for the converstion he recorded (for his protection) with Stephanie McIlvain regarding Lance and drugs. You can listen to the whole 15-20 minutes if you like and I think it would be good for people to go back with everything that has come out since and realize who has been telling the unpopular truth all along. You may not care for him, you may not like (and he is a very likeable fun guy in person) but you can not accuse him of saying things that aren't accurate. Bitter and jealous over Lance winning more Tours - absolutely not - angry he did it in a way that is killing the sport that he loves - yes!

well said. I also think your statement applies directly to Mr. Paul Kimmage. PK as well has been criticized and threatened for being direct and bitterly honest. He's lost "friends" and has been ostracized by many w/in the cycling community. But in the end just about everything he's stated has come to fruition.

[PQJ]

+1

How do you know that Phony?

[Gummee]

He was gregarious, friendly, patient with everybody, and thoroughly likable. If he's a bitter man he was disguising it pretty well that day.

BBD
I'm in the 'GL is a bitter old man' camp but even I recognize that just because you're bitter about certain things in life doesn't mean you have to be bitter about all things in life. :nod

PEDs can make you a better cyclist, but they can't automagically transform someone with the skills of a Cat 4 into a TdF winner. :nah

If you take me for example: I'm pretty well a mid-pack cross racer. Would I suddenly start winning races if I started taking PEDs? Dunno

M

[laupsi]

I'm in the 'GL is a bitter old man' camp but even I recognize that just because you're bitter about certain things in life doesn't mean you have to be bitter about all things in life. :nod

PEDs can make you a better cyclist, but they can't automagically transform someone with the skills of a Cat 4 into a TdF winner. :nah

If you take me for example: I'm pretty well a mid-pack cross racer. Would I suddenly start winning races if I started taking PEDs? Dunno

M

sorry, but what's your point?

[Gummee]

sorry, but what's your point?

Point is you can be engaging and warm but still have an axe to grind against specific individuals.

M

[Tony T]

Not at all (though I never got the magic "iron injections" he did) but Greg's victimology, martyrdom, excuse making etc has gotten long past ridiculous...

Has LeMond done anything with his TDF celebrity that didn't benefit only Greg Lemond? (other than showing up at charity events)

[laupsi]

Point is you can be engaging and warm but still have an axe to grind against specific individuals.

M

oh, it appeared you were stating you weren't fast and would never be fast even if you cheated :eek:

[Tony T]

How do you know that Phony?

Name calling? Because I agreed with one of the posters?
Do the Mods allow that? (Dave?)

[PQJ]

Name calling? Because I agreed with one of the posters?
Do the Mods allow that? (Dave?)

My bad. I accidentally hit "Ph" instead of "T". Do the mods allow telling other posters to go **** themselves? What about stalking?

I was asking you how you know Lemond is arrogant and bitter.

[Tony T]

Dave, I'm outta this thread.

[ultraman6970]

I have to agree with C50.

I really dont think he is a bitter person but you can tell too that he is frustrated, he has to be... his career felt short by external situations and accidents... wasnt his fault he got shot neither get sick and now apparently he got the diagnosis wrong. Well thats life and pretty much in his position it has to be frustrating... then LA came up and he knew how things were being developed in the pro peloton by that time... the IMO is just frustrated and after so many years well... he has been saying the things as they are or the way he saw them but doubt a lot he is just bitter as people think.

Would love to met the guy... straight forward person, no around the bushes or cr a p going on... that he sounds like an old song that everybody knows? yes but people is asking him the same crap again and again too...

[BumbleBeeDave]

Dave, I'm outta this thread.

PQJ, what the heck are you talking about? :confused:

I think the "arrogant and bitter" label could likely be traced to Lance's PR. It's the same theory as when somebody ias reported as being "charged" with some crime in a newspaper story. It doesn't matter if they are later cleared. People tend to believe the worst, expecially about celebrities, and assume that "charged" means "He did it!".

I have also listened to and read various interviews with Lemond and yes, he has indeed come across as frustrated and angry. But acidly, sarcastically bitter? I've never gotten that impression.

BBD

[Tony T]

PQJ, what the heck are you talking about? :confused:

I think the "arrogant and bitter" label could likely be traced to Lance's PR

Dave, why are you steering the thread to Lance? Is his gravitational pull that strong?

LeMond is arrogant and bitter. Whether someone feels that he has a reason to be is another issue.

[PQJ]

PQJ, what the heck are you talking about? :confused:

BBD

Tony seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the sports and its participants so I was wondering as to the basis for his thinking Greg is arrogant and bitter. I know he was parroting Harry's sentiments, but since I know Harry has a beef with Greg I figured it'd be better to get Tony's inestimable view.

[Ray]

Lemond is arrogant and bitter. Whether someone feels that he has a reason to be is another issue.

Arrogant and bitter is a subjective judgement - you state it as fact. After listening to the interview behind for this thread, I don't find him to be arrogant. As for bitter, he sounds bummed out for the sport he still loves and determined to continue to speak up about it, but I hear a lot more resigned sadness than bitterness or anything resembling it really.

-Ray

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Is it me, or am I the only one that thinks Tony T and PQJ are one and the same person?

[Tony T]

Tony seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the sports and its participants so I was wondering as to the basis for his thinking Greg is arrogant and bitter. I know he was parroting Harry's sentiments, but since I know Harry has a beef with Greg I figured it'd be better to get Tony's inestimable view.

What is your problem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD4q3leE5Uw)?
Give it a rest.

.

[Elefantino]

arrogant and bitter is a subjective judgement - you state it as fact. After listening to the interview behind for this thread, i don't find him to be arrogant. As for bitter, he sounds bummed out for the sport he still loves and determined to continue to speak up about it, but i hear a lot more resigned sadness than bitterness or anything resembling it really.

-ray

+1

[Tony T]

Arrogant and bitter is a subjective judgement - you state it as fact. After listening to the interview behind for this thread, I don't find him to be arrogant.

My opinion wasn't based on that one interview.
I also find LeMond's "Love of the Sport" disingenuous.

[PQJ]

Is it me, or am I the only one that thinks Tony T and PQJ are one and the same person?

Yikes and please god NO!!!! I, too, think that Tony has at least one other alter ego and he could well be the type to argue with himself. I assure you that I am me and not he.

[Tony T]

Yikes and please god NO!!!! I, too, think that Tony has at least one other alter ego and he could well be the type to argue with himself. I assure you that I am me and not he.

Give it a rest. You've added 0 to this thread.
...or do you have a bet with someone that you can close this thread?

[Vientomas]

Dave, why are you steering the thread to Lance? Is his gravitational pull that strong?

LeMond is arrogant and bitter. Whether someone feels that he has a reason to be is another issue.

Why do you have the opinion LeMond is arrogant and bitter? Do you have any examples of LeMond's arrogant and bitter behavior? Have you ever met the man? Are these questions off limits to you a la Lance and doping?

Since we are talking about Lance and his PR machine, check out this article: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandfield/columns/story?columnist=fainaru_wada_mark&id=3280162

The similarities of the message and methods used for Jones and Armstrong are quite interesting.

[PQJ]

Give it a rest. You've added 0 to this thread.
...or do you have a bet with someone that you can close this thread?

Not trying to do anything of the sort. I asked a question of you that was germane to the topic and to something you had said. How about this T squared: you stop stalking me and I'll give it a rest?

[54ny77]

I love the forum's ignore function. :banana:

[Tony T]

Why do you have the opinion LeMond is arrogant and bitter? Do you have any examples of LeMond's arrogant and bitter behavior?

If all you need are examples, just google "Greg LeMond bitter"

[Tony T]

Not trying to do anything of the sort. I asked a question of you that was germane to the topic and to something you had said.

You resorted to name calling in order to get my attention to pick a fight.


You now have my attention.


How do you know that Phony?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Dave, why are you steering the thread to Lance? Is his gravitational pull that strong?

LeMond is arrogant and bitter. Whether someone feels that he has a reason to be is another issue.

. . . of Lemond's public comments seems to have been inspired by his interactions with Armstrong. Indeed, when he has spoken out in the past I remember comments on this same forum that his motivation was sour grapes that Armstrong had now won more Tours than him. The two are inextricably linked.

Perhaps you and I have differing definitions of the words arrogant and bitter? freedictionary.com defines them thusly. They seem to be pretty good definitions.

Arrogant
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.

Bitter
1. Having or being a taste that is sharp, acrid, and unpleasant.
2. Causing a sharply unpleasant, painful, or stinging sensation; harsh: enveloped in bitter cold; a bitter wind.
3. Difficult or distasteful to accept, admit, or bear: the bitter truth; bitter sorrow.
4. Proceeding from or exhibiting strong animosity: a bitter struggle; bitter foes.
5. Resulting from or expressive of severe grief, anguish, or disappointment: cried bitter tears.
6. Marked by resentment or cynicism.

By those definitions I guess you could say Lemond is somewhat bitter. You could certainly say he has exhibited strong animosity for Armstrong and certainly has some resentment. I think, though, that under the curcumstances for him to answer honestly when asked about the situation, I'd cut him some slack.

But as for arrogant, if you equate that trait with Lemond, it just doesn't compute with me. In fact, it seems in many instances he has been quick to admit in many ways he is NOT superior to others. Witness his candor about his childhood abuse, his marital problems (an affair), his business dealings (admitting in one instance how he had to remove his own father as president of his compant), and his failing as a parent trying to correct that and help his son off drugs. Admitting to those things publicly sure doesn't sound arrogant to me.

So I think the question is reasonable, Tony. What evidence can you offer that Greg is either arrogant or bitter? . . . and I mean beyond simply Googling "Greg Lemond bitter?"

BBD

[Tony T]

So I think the question is reasonable, Tony. What evidence can you offer that Greg is either arrogant or bitter?

BBD

I've been pulled into a fight right now, let me get back to you.

[Joachim]

In the middle of a fight right now, let me get back to you.

Tony, have you ever raced in Europe in the 90's in the elite peloton?

[Vientomas]

If all you need are examples, just google "Greg LeMond bitter"

I did, and all I found were articles wherein people like yourself made conclusory statements unsupported by facts.

Perhaps you have a little Mark Twain in you: "I am not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts."- Wearing White Clothes speech, 1907

[merlincustom1]

Tony and I have gone back and forth in multiple threads on the Lance topic without resort to name calling. These ad hominem attacks add nothing to the discussion. It's easy to name call. It's difficult in a forum such as this to to have an extended dialogue unless both sides are willing to engage each other in some detail in a substantive discussion.

[Tony T]

I did, and all I found were articles wherein people like yourself made conclusory statements unsupported by facts.

Perhaps you have a little Mark Twain in you: "I am not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts."- Wearing White Clothes speech, 1907

Bitter and Arrogant are always an opinion. No need to state "IMO" to make it such.

Lemond is bitter and arrogant (and 2 spokes short of a full wheel).
If your opinion is otherwise, so be it.

[Elefantino]

Tony, have you ever raced in Europe in the 90's in the elite peloton?
LeMond did. He and Fignon both talked about how, in 1991, the speed of the peloton jumped dramatically, thanks in part to Edgar. By 1994, its use was sport-wide, at least in Europe.

I might be a wee bit bitter, too, if cheats ruined my chosen profession.

[Gummee]

oh, it appeared you were stating you weren't fast and would never be fast even if you cheated :eek:

That too

M

[BumbleBeeDave]

Tony and I have gone back and forth in multiple threads on the Lance topic without resort to name calling. These ad hominem attacks add nothing to the discussion. It's easy to name call. It's difficult in a forum such as this to to have an extended dialogue unless both sides are willing to engage each other in some detail in a substantive discussion.

I think we should all keep it in mind--especially in this thread.

That being said, I think debating our opinions and discussing the facts is germane. If Tony can offer some instances of behavior he's observed from Lemond that convince him GL is either arrogant or bitter then I'm interested in hearing them and I would be happy to revise my opinion if warranted. As I've stated previously, I can think of many instances where I've either read about--or directly observed at Battenkill--behavior that impresses me as being exactly the opposite. To me the incidents I've observed in person strike me as facts.

BBD

[Uncle Jam's Army]

LeMond did. He and Fignon both talked about how, in 1991, the speed of the peloton jumped dramatically, thanks in part to Edgar. By 1994, its use was sport-wide, at least in Europe.

I might be a wee bit bitter, too, if cheats ruined my chosen profession.

I believe Andy Hampsten made this same observation. How he went from being one of the world's best climbers to being dropped by rouleurs from one year to the next.

[laupsi]

That too

M

don't sell yourself off so cheaply, there are always going to be bigger fish and fast is oh so relative. on another note, quite an "exciting" thread here, no?

[slidey]

With 'fans' like this, which sport needs bad-mouthers?

@Tony
I don't understand how you can be leaving Lance out of this? (In relation to your comment, about LA's grav pull). Your insinuations about LeMond being arrogant and bitter, are totally unfounded. Furthermore your opinion means little, since its plenty clear by now to everyone following these threads, that you're incapable of constructing logical, dispassionate arguments on this issue.

So let me break it down for you as to where the inconsequential lying doper's name (Lance 'doped to da gills' Armstrong) comes up in this thread...because LeMond alleges Dopestrong destroyed his life. I do believe there's some truth in the matter given the circumstantial evidence (Trek-Livestrong v/s LeMond).

There, now you can maybe enlighten us with facts, and not just gut rumbles, as to why you feel your opinion has any merit to it. Please do not deflect on some stupid wiki laws now, that is your first instinct. Oh, and I'm making this personal since I believe you add little useful conversation, and much more controversy to these threads. I'm fed up of going through a Lance thread, which is potentially interesting, and having to rummage through plethora of your meaningless lawyer-like ping-pong with everyone else.

[dave thompson]

I have nothing to add, other than ^^THIS^^ is a great post! Thanks.

[zennmotion]

With 'fans' like this, which sport needs bad-mouthers?

@Tony
I don't understand how you can be leaving Lance out of this? (In relation to your comment, about LA's grav pull). Your insinuations about LeMond being arrogant and bitter, are totally unfounded. Furthermore your opinion means little, since its plenty clear by now to everyone following these threads, that you're incapable of constructing logical, dispassionate arguments on this issue.

So let me break it down for you as to where the inconsequential lying doper's name (Lance 'doped to da gills' Armstrong) comes up in this thread...because LeMond alleges Dopestrong destroyed his life. I do believe there's some truth in the matter given the circumstantial evidence (Trek-Livestrong v/s LeMond).

There, now you can maybe enlighten us with facts, and not just gut rumbles, as to why you feel your opinion has any merit to it. Please do not deflect on some stupid wiki laws now, that is your first instinct. Oh, and I'm making this personal since I believe you add little useful conversation, and much more controversy to these threads. I'm fed up of going through a Lance thread, which is potentially interesting, and having to rummage through plethora of your meaningless lawyer-like ping-pong with everyone else.

I agree that the discourse in the forums, particularly on threads affected by "Lance's gravitational pull" can be infuriating. But we all have to accept the responsibility for the decision to engage. I wish the mods were a little more heavy handed in keeping discussions civil, useful or at least entertaining I recognize that it's easier said than done. There are a few in here that to me come off as unidimensional broken records with social challenges manifested through an essentially anonymous venue. I can't "fix" them, and arguing with them just turns logging on to the forum into a negative experience for an activity(cycling) that has been a major part of my life for nearly 40 years. My point is, use the ignore tools, or otherwise do not engage, otherwise the place just gets stunk up pretty fast. I'd rather be happy than "right". IMO of course...

[Tony T]

If Tony can offer some instances of behavior he's observed from Lemond that convince him GL is either arrogant or bitter ...

LeMond became bitter when Hinault betrayed him in `86 after he allowed Hinault to win in `85. LeMond has said that in `85 that he was frustrated ('bitter'?) that his management and coach had misled him as to how far back Hinault had dropped.

LeMond always had a chip on his shoulder.
Still does.

[whforrest]

With 'fans' like this, which sport needs bad-mouthers?

@Tony
I don't understand how you can be leaving Lance out of this? (In relation to your comment, about LA's grav pull). Your insinuations about LeMond being arrogant and bitter, are totally unfounded. Furthermore your opinion means little, since its plenty clear by now to everyone following these threads, that you're incapable of constructing logical, dispassionate arguments on this issue.

So let me break it down for you as to where the inconsequential lying doper's name (Lance 'doped to da gills' Armstrong) comes up in this thread...because LeMond alleges Dopestrong destroyed his life. I do believe there's some truth in the matter given the circumstantial evidence (Trek-Livestrong v/s LeMond).

There, now you can maybe enlighten us with facts, and not just gut rumbles, as to why you feel your opinion has any merit to it. Please do not deflect on some stupid wiki laws now, that is your first instinct. Oh, and I'm making this personal since I believe you add little useful conversation, and much more controversy to these threads. I'm fed up of going through a Lance thread, which is potentially interesting, and having to rummage through plethora of your meaningless lawyer-like ping-pong with everyone else.

Several non using EPO riders in the peloton had problems keeping the pace in the early to mid nineties. Andy Hampstem wrote a letter years ago defending Greg Lemond. Andy was smart to stay out of some of these battles but he understood how racing had changed dramatically. For many reasons I have always believed Greg's passion for clean cycling. He stuck his neck out opposing powerful institutions like the ASO, UCI, Armstrong, doping doctors, etc. This was during a time when Omerta was alive and well. I'm sure he knew he would damage his brand. If he only cared about business he would have remained silent and leverage his brand with Armstrong. We could have all celebrated our 2 beloved tour winners. I do not have ill feelings towards Lemond and I respect the hell out of this guy.

-Bill

[professerr]

I'm fed up of going through a Lance thread, which is potentially interesting, and having to rummage through plethora of your meaningless lawyer-like ping-pong with everyone else.

This.

[merlincustom1]

LeMond became bitter when Hinault betrayed him in `86 after he allowed Hinault to win in `85. LeMond has said that in `85 that he was frustrated ('bitter'?) that his management and coach had misled him as to how far back Hinault had dropped.

As T previously mentioned, "bitter and angry" really is a matter of opinion. In the Hinault example above, one man's bitter is another's legitimate complaint.

[Fixed]

How do you know that Phony?

Bad form Imho
Cheers

[CunegoFan]

I'm fed up of going through a Lance thread, which is potentially interesting, and having to rummage through plethora of your meaningless lawyer-like ping-pong with everyone else.

He is a troll. Most cycling forums have people like him. Their purpose is to crapflood threads making them useless.

All that "LeMond is bitter" stuff did not come out of nowhere. It was shaped by Armstrong's PR people then picked up by useful idiots. One of the things that Armstrong did is he hired an Internet reputation management company to post comments everywhere that LeMond was referenced, comments on news articles, threads in forums, etc. At one point Armstrong had employees of Livestrong doing this. Some of the employees felt guilty enough about it that they apologized to LeMond.

[BumbleBeeDave]

LeMond became bitter when Hinault betrayed him in `86 after he allowed Hinault to win in `85. LeMond has said that in `85 that he was frustrated ('bitter'?) that his management and coach had misled him as to how far back Hinault had dropped.

LeMond always had a chip on his shoulder.
Still does.

. . . since that time relating to cycling, including fighting doping, have been motivated by bitterness stemming from this one incident? That would seem to the hrust of your comment.

If that is the sole basis for your opinion, then so be it. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I would have to say that I respectfully disagree with it based on many different accounts--many of which I deem reliable--of behavior from Lemond that run totally counter to such a motivation.

BBD

[goonster]

At one point Armstrong had employees of Livestrong doing this. Some of the employees felt guilty enough about it that they apologized to LeMond.
Do you have a link for this?

If true, that's incredibly shady.

[Ray]

LeMond became bitter when Hinault betrayed him in `86 after he allowed Hinault to win in `85. LeMond has said that in `85 that he was frustrated ('bitter'?) that his management and coach had misled him as to how far back Hinault had dropped.

LeMond always had a chip on his shoulder.
Still does.

Listen to the interview that spawned this thread. He talks about that situation in a bit of detail and talks about what he was upset about at the time and what he WASN'T upset about at the time, which parts he understands better with the passage of time, etc. But he's very clearly gotten over it and it sounds like he and Hinault are fine with each other. Listen to him talk about that and tell me he's bitter about it now...

I'm sure he was at the time - anyone would have been.

-Ray

[BumbleBeeDave]

He is a troll. Most cycling forums have people like him. Their purpose is to crapflood threads making them useless.

All that "LeMond is bitter" stuff did not come out of nowhere. It was shaped by Armstrong's PR people then picked up by useful idiots. One of the things that Armstrong did is he hired an Internet reputation management company to post comments everywhere that LeMond was referenced, comments on news articles, threads in forums, etc. At one point Armstrong had employees of Livestrong doing this. Some of the employees felt guilty enough about it that they apologized to LeMond.

. . . there's nothing unusal about such tactics. They are old hat in PR and political campaign circles. The only thing that's changed is the technology in that they are online instead of whispered in local bars. And yes, it's shady. They are just indicative of a competitor who wants to win at all costs. Sound familiar?

BBD

[54ny77]

"Dude, this one time, at banned camp..."

http://www.dailypeloton.com/article_images/pod/armstrong-lemond94a.jpg

[whforrest]

He is a troll. Most cycling forums have people like him. Their purpose is to crapflood threads making them useless.

All that "LeMond is bitter" stuff did not come out of nowhere. It was shaped by Armstrong's PR people then picked up by useful idiots. One of the things that Armstrong did is he hired an Internet reputation management company to post comments everywhere that LeMond was referenced, comments on news articles, threads in forums, etc. At one point Armstrong had employees of Livestrong doing this. Some of the employees felt guilty enough about it that they apologized to LeMond.

well said

[Tony T]

Sound familiar?
BBD

So any negative against LeMond, TH, Landis, etc. is by someone on Armstrong's payroll?
You really believe that? You really believe that LeMond is a Saint? What has LeMond really done to 'clean-up' cycling, except to stand on his soapbox?
BTW, the crapflooding was started by PQJ, and you appear to be fine with that.

[PQJ]

The crapflooding was started by PQJ, and you appear to be fine with that.

Completely untrue (as usual). I asked you why you think Lemond is bitter and arrogant. I've met him and didn't get that from him at all. Same way as I asked you if, given all you know, you genuinely believe Armstrong is innocent, and you couldn't answer except in doublespeak.

[Tony T]

Completely untrue (as usual). I asked you why you think Lemond is bitter and arrogant.

No, you used that as an excuse to hurl a personal attack and to stir up trouble.

[Gummee]

don't sell yourself off so cheaply, there are always going to be bigger fish and fast is oh so relative. on another note, quite an "exciting" thread here, no?

Since I don't really have a dog in this hunt, yeah, this is great stuff.

M

[goonster]

So any negative against LeMond, TH, Landis, etc. is by someone on Armstrong's payroll?
You really believe that? You really believe that LeMond is a Saint? What has LeMond really done to 'clean-up' cycling, except to stand on his soapbox?
So many questions.

So little substance.

[PQJ]

No, you used that as an excuse to hurl a personal attack and to stir up trouble.

You're the type who seems to always like to get the last word in, so this'll be my last post on this topic else it'll just go on and on. I can't tell if you're serious, a troll, a fool, or something more sinister (a paid Armstrong shill sounds far-fetched, but stranger things have happened in this world). You seem to like to argue for its own sake and don't seem swayed by rational, fact-based discourse. I don't suffer fools well so perhaps I've had less tolerance for you than I otherwise might. And yes, over the past few days, I've deliberately been an a$$ to you because of the way you have treated me. Still, the 2 questions I've asked you have always been asked in good faith and with a genuine desire to see what it is that drives people with viewpoints that differ from my own. You can shut me up quite easily by answering them. Or you could just ignore me. That you don't would tend to suggest that you yourself are fixin' for a fight.

[BumbleBeeDave]

So any negative against LeMond, TH, Landis, etc. is by someone on Armstrong's payroll?
You really believe that? You really believe that LeMond is a Saint? What has LeMond really done to 'clean-up' cycling, except to stand on his soapbox?
BTW, the crapflooding was started by PQJ, and you appear to be fine with that.

. . . that ANY negative comment against Lemond is by someone on Lance's payroll--and I clearly did not say that. I said it's not an unknown tactic--and that''s all I said, and I think you know it. But IMHO it's precisely such repeated leaps in logic by you and twists of meaning that turn people off.

The real question to me is whether you really believe what you are saying or whether you are adopting such debate and lawyerly tactics deliberately to try and turn the focus of blame back on the other party.

You consistenly seem to twist what the other person is saying just enough so that they are put on the defensive trying to clarify what they just said.

It's a pretty good tactic, too--as long as the other party is not wise to what you are doing. :rolleyes:

I'm not gonna lock this up. I'll leave that to some other person to request and one of the other mods to do because I clearly have a conflict of niterest here. But I think an increasing number of people here are realizing the emperor has no clothes and are speaking up.

BBD

[CunegoFan]

Do you have a link for this?

If true, that's incredibly shady.

It was part of LeMond's lawsuit against Trek. The company used was Public Strategies. Livestrong has a long relationship with people who are experienced at such things. A consultant at Public Strategies is a long time friend of his and sat on Livestrong's board. His office was in the same building as Capital Sports Entertainment. Currently the big cheese of Bazaar Voice has a position on Livestrong's board.

Trek was also accused by LeMond of being involved with Public Strategies' campaign against Lemond.

[Tony T]

You're the type who seems to always like to get the last word in, so this'll be my last post on this topic else it'll just go on and on. I can't tell if you're serious, a troll, a fool, or something more sinister (a paid Armstrong shill sounds far-fetched, but stranger things have happened in this world). You seem to like to argue for its own sake and don't seem swayed by rational, fact-based discourse. I don't suffer fools well so perhaps I've had less tolerance for you than I otherwise might. And yes, over the past few days, I've deliberately been an a$$ to you because of the way you have treated me. Still, the 2 questions I've asked you have always been asked in good faith and with a genuine desire to see what it is that drives people with viewpoints that differ from my own. You can shut me up quite easily by answering them.

Twist away. You follow my posts in these forums and respond to them with the same asinine posts and questions in order to stir up trouble, and then play the victim ("over the past few days, I've deliberately been an ass to you because of the way you have treated me.")

Point in fact: Your nonsense in this thread started when I agreed with another's post.

[Vientomas]

So any negative against LeMond, TH, Landis, etc. is by someone on Armstrong's payroll?
You really believe that? You really believe that LeMond is a Saint? What has LeMond really done to 'clean-up' cycling, except to stand on his soapbox?
BTW, the crapflooding was started by PQJ, and you appear to be fine with that.

No.
No.
No.
I suggest you Google "LeMond clean up cycling"
I have no opinion on "crapflooding", other than it does not sound like fun.

[whforrest]

???


No.
No.
No.
I suggest you Google "LeMond clean up cycling"
I have no opinion on "crapflooding", other than it does not sound like fun.

[dave thompson]

how is the riding in idaho? My wife's parents are retiring there next year.
Depending where in Idaho, the riding can be really good to great!. In the panhandle (northern Idaho) there's lots of back roads and rails-to-trails. Tons o' scenery, forests, plains, mountains and hills. We live next door in eastern Washington and there's hundreds of miles of biking to do. Then just east, there's Montana.

[Elefantino]

Depending where in Idaho, the riding can be really good to great!. In the panhandle (northern Idaho) there's lots of back roads and rails-to-trails. Tons o' scenery, forests, plains, mountains and hills. We live next door in eastern Washington and there's hundreds of miles of biking to do. Then just east, there's Montana.

Just watch out for Mark Fuhrman

[professerr]

Guys, pretty much everyone has been around forums long enough to know not to feed the trolls, and pretty much everyone has also been around long enough to not bother to even say “Don’t feed the trolls.” But there are a lot of interesting contributions here that get obscured and sidetracked by this guy. So I'll be "that guy" and say it. Please remember: resist the urge and don’t feed the trolls – they aren’t looking for discussion, just attention.

[54ny77]

http://www.funnyanimalclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/tumblr_lib78sAT6G1qzlqqfo1_500.jpg

[Germany_chris]

Guys, pretty much everyone has been around forums long enough to know not to feed the trolls, and pretty much everyone has also been around long enough to not bother to even say “Don’t feed the trolls.” But there are a lot of interesting contributions here that get obscured and sidetracked by this guy. So I'll be "that guy" and say it. Please remember: resist the urge and don’t feed the trolls – they aren’t looking for discussion, just attention.

The issue is he's not a troll..

He just beats folks up for the Lance bad all others good mentality that happens here.

[Tandem Rider]

Anyone else need popcorn and skittles?

[dave thompson]

I'll pass on the Skittles but popcorn would be good [raise footpiece on BarcaLounger]

[Louis]

the Lance bad all others good mentality that happens here.

??????

I think for most folks they are all bad, but LA was the baddest of them all.

[Vientomas]

???

Eye-dee-ho is a relatively large State. Dave has described the northern part of the State quite well. Boise is considered to be in the southern part of the State and has a significant cycling community. The current women's time trial Olympic gold medalist, Kristen Armstrong, resides there.

Where are you in-laws moving to?

[Germany_chris]

??????

I think for most folks they are all bad, but LA was the baddest of them all.

Judging from the comments I read here I disagree..

[Louis]

Judging from the comments I read here I disagree..

You might be right. I didn't bother to read the whole thread.

[professerr]

The issue is he's not a troll..


Fair enough. If that's your view, fire away.
For those that disagree with this view, I only suggest they consider whether engaging a troll is effective.

[BBB]

There is a lot of guff in this thread.

Given the back drop of what has been said and done over the last decade or more, LeMond has been fairly gracious as most of what he has been banging on about has by and large come to fruitition. The guy was threatened, prior to giving evidence, with revelation of sexual abuse as a child. I mean how low can you go? Yet the argument in this thread is whether he is bitter or not.

There is no doubt LeMond is vocal when it comes to expressing his feelings. This could be portrayed as either naive or whinning (yes he was labelled a world class whinner many years before Armstrong and his bevy of lawyers, PR people and followers came on the scene). Take the '85 Tour. No doubt had he been given the green light to attack he would have won the race. LeMond views this as the one that got away. But, LeMond could be more circumspect as he only ever found himself in a winning position because of two things, both of which happened on the same day. Firstly, La Vie Claire played a tactical card and had LeMond attack. This forced the other favourites to chase and gave Hinault a relatively easy day in the saddle as he was not forced to defend the jersey. LeMond gain a couple of minutes as a result. Secondly, Hinault crashed on the sprint to the finish on the very same stage, broke his nose and had breathing problems as a result. Without either of these things happening LeMond was never in a position to win the race. Hinault was head and shoulders above LeMond until this fateful stage. But, you could see why LeMond was frustrated and no doubt Hinault was extremely relieved that LeMond was not give the unequivocal instruction to attack Stephen Roche. LeMond's outburst at the time was probably a reflection of his frustration and also a reflection of his relatively young age (24 maybe). But, bitter? How many people find themselves coming second and in a position to win the TdF at their second go? Not many. Maybe we rue the one that got away, but being bitter is a whole other level.

Maybe give what has transpired over recent years some people should view LeMond in a different light and cut him some slack. He was a brilliant cyclist, but as a person has flaws, which he is seemingly not only prepared to admit, but is prepared to talk about. At the end of the day is it that hard for some to admit that cycling had (has) a drug problem and that maybe, just maybe, LeMond was right all along.

[rustychisel]

There is a lot of guff in this thread.


... maybe, just maybe, LeMond was right all along.


Sorry for my heavy-handed contraction, but I think you might have encapsulated a point of view.

I'm just gobsmacked at the meanness displayed by some on this thread and surprised the mods haven't issued a red card or two.

[dave thompson]

Sorry for my heavy-handed contraction, but I think you might have encapsulated a point of view.

I'm just gobsmacked at the meanness displayed by some on this thread and surprised the mods haven't issued a red card or two.

I agree and find myself less willing to participate on this forum because of it. There are relative 'newbies' here that have brought their lack of self-discipline when dealing with others that have contrary opinions to theirs, which degrades the hard-earned reputation that this forum has built over the last decade.

My opinion is that the mods need to be firmer than they are now. Maybe much more firm in this thread.

[Elefantino]

I agree and find myself less willing to participate on this forum because of it. There are relative 'newbies' here that have brought their lack of self-discipline when dealing with others that have contrary opinions to theirs, which degrades the hard-earned reputation that this forum has built over the last decade.

My opinion is that the mods need to be firmer than they are now. Maybe much more firm in this thread.
I'm often bemused about why Lance is so polarizing around here. I know so very many people put more than just their rooting interest in him. They put their faith, their will, and in some cases their lives. I get that. My mom did.

But this is a cycling forum, and those of us who follow the sport even casually know that he, like everyone else from the early 90s on, systematically doped. There can't really be any denial about that. Can there? (Rhetorical; don't answer)

Baseball went through its steroid era, got tough, and now the sport has righted itself. I understand that riding a 2,200-mile race over European mountains is harder than playing a 162-game season where you either stand or sit most of the time, but the point is change is doable ... if those in charge of the sport see it in the sport's best interest to change. I think it's an open question as to whether a certain, powerful few really do. And until those sketchy persons -- whether they're the heads of international bodies or until recently popular team directors -- leave the sport for good, there will always be that "are they still doing it?" question that lingers.

It's healthy to have the discussions. In totally opposite but equally strange ways, both LeMond and Armstrong may be doing irreparable good for the sport they love.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It's healthy to have the discussions. In totally opposite but equally strange ways, both LeMond and Armstrong may be doing irreparable good for the sport they love.

Armstrong DID do a lot of good to the sport. But "did" is the operative word here. He's now in the process of undoing it because he can't grow a pair (or one, or whatever), admit what he did, and sink out of sight. His stubborn insistence on blatant denial--even in the face of ever-increasing evidence to the contrary--will never unsell all the bikes his ascent to fame did, but it will sour a lot of people on the sport who otherwise would have gotten interested or continued to be interested.

It's ironic that it's only now becoming apparent how much good Lemond was trying to do for the sport as he continued to speak up over the last few years.

BBD

[Germany_chris]

You are again giving USADA more credibility than the guy on the street does. To the casual follower the fact that the government didn't prosecute says it all, the ban by a private organization that no ones ever heard of means little and smells of revenge. If you combine that with politicians calling for more oversight of of the little organization you've never heard of credibility is finally erased.

If Lance continues on the track he's on he becomes a martyr, If he slips and admits to anything, everything is gone. His PR campaign needs to center USADA continued persecution of him.

I don't dislike Mr. Lemond but Mr. Lemond does little to ingratiate himself publicly he may be a nice guy but I care very little.

[Elefantino]

To the casual follower the fact that the government didn't prosecute says it all...
On the other hand, the fact that the Andre Birotte made a unilateral decision not to prosecute, thereby making furious the veteran investigators at the FBI and FDA who believed the case was more than solid, says something, too.

It's all going to come out eventually. Then we'll see arguments over whether whose facts are the right facts and if not why not.

[Germany_chris]

On the other hand, the fact that the Andre Birotte made a unilateral decision not to prosecute, thereby making furious the veteran investigators at the FBI and FDA who believed the case was more than solid, says something, too.

It's all going to come out eventually. Then we'll see arguments over whether whose facts are the right facts and if not why not.

But were talking about public perception..

I think that if Lance goes down now, it'll be the man taking him out regardless of facts. He becomes martyr it really is checkmate by Lance.

[William]

I posted this in the other current doping thread and I'm going to post it in this one as well....


I'll give you the point that the Lance threads are getting old. But, cycling is it's own little universe and Lance and his deeds are an important part of that universe. Being a cycling centered forum it is inevitable that the topic will keep coming up.

My advice to all is this:
If you are tired of the topic, don't open the thread.
If you can't comment on the topic constructively (or humorously), don't comment.
If you can't comment without baiting or trolling, don't comment.
If you can't comment without resorting to personal attacks, don't comment...it will get you a warning and/or suspension from the forum.

I think that is pretty clear.




William


William

[laupsi]

But were talking about public perception..

I think that if Lance goes down now, it'll be the man taking him out regardless of facts. He becomes martyr it really is checkmate by Lance.

you are leaving out that the Feds were trying to prove conspiracy, not necessarily doping. on the former this turned out to be something pretty difficult to prove in the court of law, forget about public opinion.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . William said.

BBD

[Tony T]

The guy was threatened, prior to giving evidence, with revelation of sexual abuse as a child. I mean how low can you go? Yet the argument in this thread is whether he is bitter or not.

Yet that is forgotten when Landis decided to "come clean", and he is now held up as a saint, trying to clean-up cycling.

[Fixed]

I need to learn to keep my mouth shut
Cheers :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

I need to learn to keep my mouth shut
Cheers :)

You are not the problem.

BBD

[Germany_chris]

you are leaving out that the Feds were trying to prove conspiracy, not necessarily doping. on the former this turned out to be something pretty difficult to prove in the court of law, forget about public opinion.


All know where I stand on this issue..

I'm only speaking of public opinion because that is after all where Lance makes his money. He simply cannot lose now there is no benefit to him to come "clean" or to "tell all" or "clear his conscious." If he shuts up keep pointing out the negative tests he wins no matter the evidence or technicalities.

[oldpotatoe]

My bad. I accidentally hit "Ph" instead of "T". Do the mods allow telling other posters to go **** themselves? What about stalking?

I was asking you how you know Lemond is arrogant and bitter.


yikes

[goonster]

he is now held up as a saint
By who, besides your strawman?

[54ny77]

agreed.

this place startin' to have a weird other-bike-forum-feel to it, with an ethos of....

http://www.gameinformer.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/610x0/__key/CommunityServer-Components-UserFiles/00-00-70-71-34-Attached+Files/2514.Keyboard-Warrior.jpg

I agree and find myself less willing to participate on this forum because of it. There are relative 'newbies' here that have brought their lack of self-discipline when dealing with others that have contrary opinions to theirs, which degrades the hard-earned reputation that this forum has built over the last decade.

My opinion is that the mods need to be firmer than they are now. Maybe much more firm in this thread.

[William]

agreed.

this place startin' to have a weird other-bike-forum-feel to it, with an ethos of....



We the mods can't be on at all times nor read all threads. I would ask the members that if you read a post that is out of line report it. That being said, there seems to be a bit of bickering and pot stirring going on lately that needs to stop. I've already thrown out a blanket warning and if the same crap continues some people will have themselves a time out. Then they can decide if the want to participate in a civil manner or move on.

On that note I'm going to lock this up. If you want to start another thread about Lemond feel free.




William