Gluing Tubulars?!?

[jdhansen63]

So, I've made the switch to tubular tires for CX and have had less than stellar experience gluing. For my latest attempt, I used the 3 day CX mag method:

Day 0: Clean old glue from rim with solvent.
Day 1: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 2: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 3: Light layer of glue on rim, mount tire, center tire, check for adequate bond and inflate to 60psi. Let dry for 24 hours.

This is my race wheelset, and they have been used for 5 races this season. After last weeks race, I noticed a slow leak, so I pulled the valve to add some sealant. When deflated, I could see the tire (front and back) was not bonded to the rim and the glue looked dry and cracked. :confused:

Anyone idea what I'm doing wrong?
Should I pull the tire off and try gluing it again.
If so, do I clean rim/tire first?
How do you clean old glue from a tire?
What works best for cleaning glue from the rim? Anything biodegradable?

Jason

[nightfend]

You don't have to remove old glue. I'd just remove any big chunks and re-glue everything.

A lot of people use Belgium tape along with glue for cross tires. Adhesion also depends on the width of your tire bed. The new wider carbon rims hold cross tires much better.

[laupsi]

So, I've made the switch to tubular tires for CX and have had less than stellar experience gluing. For my latest attempt, I used the 3 day CX mag method:

Day 0: Clean old glue from rim with solvent.
Day 1: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 2: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 3: Light layer of glue on rim, mount tire, center tire, check for adequate bond and inflate to 60psi. Let dry for 24 hours.

This is my race wheelset, and they have been used for 5 races this season. After last weeks race, I noticed a slow leak, so I pulled the valve to add some sealant. When deflated, I could see the tire (front and back) was not bonded to the rim and the glue looked dry and cracked. :confused:

Anyone idea what I'm doing wrong?
Should I pull the tire off and try gluing it again.
If so, do I clean rim/tire first?
How do you clean old glue from a tire?
What works best for cleaning glue from the rim? Anything biodegradable?

Jason

try tape, it's better! (couldn't help myself... :))

[christian]

Use the Zanconato method, and be sure to get real Belgian tape not Jantex.

[regularguy412]

try tape, it's better! (couldn't help myself... :))

and even if you don't use tape, it doesn't take 3 days to glue one up -- unless you have a brand new tire that's never been pre-stretched. Then you'll want to let it stretch on a rim at a high pressure for a couple of days to make installation easier.

Mike in AR:beer:

[yakstone]

I bought a set of wheels a couple of years ago with tires glued.

When I got ready to use the wheels I checked the bond and was kind of surprised how easily the tires came off.

The glue had gotten hard / brittle and when I folded the tire the old mastic essentially crumbled. I took a bristle brush and cleaned the base tape and rim. Wiped the rim down with acetone and treated both tire and rim as if they had never been glued before.
Now that tire is on there!

[jdhansen63]

I bought a set of wheels a couple of years ago with tires glued.

When I got ready to use the wheels I checked the bond and was kind of surprised how easily the tires came off.

The glue had gotten hard / brittle and when I folded the tire the old mastic essentially crumbled. I took a bristle brush and cleaned the base tape and rim. Wiped the rim down with acetone and treated both tire and rim as if they had never been glued before.
Now that tire is on there!
I realize old glue can dry out. Guess I was surprised since the glue job is only a couple months old. I expected to get a season out of them.

[dd74]

So do some of you guys favor tape over gluing? My LBS doesn't recommend tape in the least. What's the advantage of tape?

[djg]

So none of the posts thus far explain your problem. If folks like using tape, more power to them, but that doesn't explain why you're seeing obvious failures of adhesion so soon after a careful glue job. What type of glue were you using? Personally I've had the best luck with Vittoria Mastik 1, but that's hardly the only glue (or rim cement that will work).

It is possible to get a bad batch of glue (or tape) -- I recall my one rolled cross tire ever turned out to be associated with a recalled batch of Conti rim cement. Also, I reckon, possible to contaminate your glue -- were you using some type of solvent in cleaning off the old stuff? Do you know what the old stuff was? (Most contemporary offerings work ok together, but there used to be reports of incompatible formulations).

I just do overnight after the first layer, then maybe an hour or so between 2 and 3; and then overnight to bond. All layers thin, clean, and edge to edge. The park tools web site also has decent instructions.

[jdhansen63]

So none of the posts thus far explain your problem. If folks like using tape, more power to them, but that doesn't explain why you're seeing obvious failures of adhesion so soon after a careful glue job. What type of glue were you using? Personally I've had the best luck with Vittoria Mastik 1, but that's hardly the only glue (or rim cement that will work).

It is possible to get a bad batch of glue (or tape) -- I recall my one rolled cross tire ever turned out to be associated with a recalled batch of Conti rim cement. Also, I reckon, possible to contaminate your glue -- were you using some type of solvent in cleaning off the old stuff? Do you know what the old stuff was? (Most contemporary offerings work ok together, but there used to be reports of incompatible formulations).

I just do overnight after the first layer, then maybe an hour or so between 2 and 3; and then overnight to bond. All layers thin, clean, and edge to edge. The park tools web site also has decent instructions.
I used Vittoria Mastik 1. Not sure what was used before this though. To clean the rim, I used a citrus degreaser (not sure of the brand).

[Gummee]

I used Vittoria Mastik 1. Not sure what was used before this though. To clean the rim, I used a citrus degreaser (not sure of the brand).

I think that's where the 8-ball was introduced. Gotta get all that stuff off.

I prefer mechanical removal vs solvents. I have a wire wheel set up on my drill. CAREFULLY using the drill, I get the big globs off, leaving a base layer of glue as much as possible. Note: be careful. I can't stress that enough.

Once you get some of the glue warm, it'll glob on to the wire wheel so all that's turning against your glue is more glue. Less chance of an eff up.

Others have had great luck with solvents.

There's a few ways to glue a tire on. Most are fairly similar. I haven't had any experience with tape, so I'll leave that to those that are familiar with it.

M

[ultraman6970]

No mess with the glue, the set up of the tubular over the bead is super clean but you have a couple of problems...

1 if you want to take the tubular off the rim you need to ask david banner to do it for you.

2 if the tubular is not super straight and you are anal about that, once the final tape is taken off, there is no way in hell (at least with tufo tape) to be able to correct problems, tweak the tubular to get it straight over the rim bead.

Besides those details the tape is nice.

So do some of you guys favor tape over gluing? My LBS doesn't recommend tape in the least. What's the advantage of tape?

[oldpotatoe]

So, I've made the switch to tubular tires for CX and have had less than stellar experience gluing. For my latest attempt, I used the 3 day CX mag method:

Day 0: Clean old glue from rim with solvent.
Day 1: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 2: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 3: Light layer of glue on rim, mount tire, center tire, check for adequate bond and inflate to 60psi. Let dry for 24 hours.

This is my race wheelset, and they have been used for 5 races this season. After last weeks race, I noticed a slow leak, so I pulled the valve to add some sealant. When deflated, I could see the tire (front and back) was not bonded to the rim and the glue looked dry and cracked. :confused:

Anyone idea what I'm doing wrong?
Should I pull the tire off and try gluing it again.
If so, do I clean rim/tire first?
How do you clean old glue from a tire?
What works best for cleaning glue from the rim? Anything biodegradable?

Jason


Waiting 24 hours between layers is silly.

Lightish layer on the tire
lightish layer on the rim
Lightish layer on the tire
lightish layer on the rim
lightish layer on the tire with a wee ridge of glue in the center of the base tape.

When you can touch tire and fingers don't stick(about 15 minutes, light layer on rim..mount then, center, inflate to about 30 psi..push all around tire on ground..let dry 24 hours..whether road or cross

[oldpotatoe]

So do some of you guys favor tape over gluing? My LBS doesn't recommend tape in the least. What's the advantage of tape?

Ride right now..but too many drawbacks...just glue the things.

[R2D2]

I used Vittoria Mastik 1. Not sure what was used before this though. To clean the rim, I used a citrus degreaser (not sure of the brand).

DId you make sure to get all the degreaser off? Acetone works best but watch it around decals.

[rockdude]

Use the Zanconato method, and be sure to get real Belgian tape not Jantex.

If you are gluing CX tubular this is the only way. FYI- Jantex is Belgian tape.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/roc-dude/jantex.jpg

[Rob1519]

So, I've made the switch to tubular tires for CX and have had less than stellar experience gluing. For my latest attempt, I used the 3 day CX mag method:

Day 0: Clean old glue from rim with solvent.
Day 1: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 2: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 3: Light layer of glue on rim, mount tire, center tire, check for adequate bond and inflate to 60psi. Let dry for 24 hours.

This is my race wheelset, and they have been used for 5 races this season. After last weeks race, I noticed a slow leak, so I pulled the valve to add some sealant. When deflated, I could see the tire (front and back) was not bonded to the rim and the glue looked dry and cracked. :confused:

Anyone idea what I'm doing wrong?
Should I pull the tire off and try gluing it again.
If so, do I clean rim/tire first?
How do you clean old glue from a tire?
What works best for cleaning glue from the rim? Anything biodegradable?

Jason

Jason,

See the below link. Everything you need to know is contained here. The methodology detailed by Geoff is what I do and I have never had an issue. Also, there is a fairly good video on the Zipp website.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72309&start=945

Rob

[christian]

If you are gluing CX tubular this is the only way. FYI- Jantex is Belgian tape.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/roc-dude/jantex.jpg

No. Velox Jantex is French, first off. And the composition is different from the Stu Thorne "Belgian" tape. The Stu Thorne tape is a looser weave and absorbs significantly more glue.

[zap]

It's been reported that some tubular base tapes (can't remember which brand) need to be roughened with sandpaper so that the tubular glue adheres to the base tape.

[christian]

It's been reported that some tubular base tapes (can't remember which brand) need to be roughened with sandpaper so that the tubular glue adheres to the base tape.Vittoria, primarily. Basically, if the base tape feels rubbery, it needs to be roughened. If it feels like cloth, glue away.

[cfox]

Veloflex tires have a coating on the base tape. I don't know if it differs from the Vittoria coating, but I was specifically told by World Class Cycles (Veloflex importer, I believe) to leave the coating alone.

[djg]

If you are gluing CX tubular this is the only way. FYI- Jantex is Belgian tape.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/roc-dude/jantex.jpg

Maybe it's terrific, but it's neither Belgian nor the only way.

[cmg]

Day 0: Clean old glue from rim with solvent.
Day 1: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 2: Light layer of glue on rim and tire and let dry for 24 hours.
Day 3: Light layer of glue on rim, mount tire, center tire, check for adequate bond and inflate to 60psi. Let dry for 24 hours.


my version takes about 2-3 days to remove the previous glue.
then after 2 days of gluing/drying i put another light layer of glue on the rim AND TIRE, MOUNT AND INFLATE TO 40+/- and adjust. I stopped using tape when i had to demount a taped tire and one that had been glued on. the glued tire was much tougher.

[Louis]

The fact that there are so many different ways to do this, most of which work perfectly well, suggests to me that it really doesn't matter that much how you do it.

[aoe]

Waiting 24 hours between layers is silly.

Lightish layer on the tire
lightish layer on the rim
Lightish layer on the tire
lightish layer on the rim
lightish layer on the tire with a wee ridge of glue in the center of the base tape.

When you can touch tire and fingers don't stick(about 15 minutes, light layer on rim..mount then, center, inflate to about 30 psi..push all around tire on ground..let dry 24 hours..whether road or cross

^This method. I use Panaracer and for CX tires one extra layer (4) on tire and rim for good measure.

[oldpotatoe]

^This method. I use Panaracer and for CX tires one extra layer (4) on tire and rim for good measure.

Mee too..Panaracer is my favorite plus when ya use it you 'take a trip without leaving the farm'....

[dd74]

Ride right now..but too many drawbacks...just glue the things.
What are the drawbacks?

[Louis]

What are the drawbacks?

IMO the biggest one is that it's nearly impossible to remove them out on the road if you flat.

[sailorboy]

Well, looks like I broke the main rules last weekend (installed vittorias with tufo tape only--no glue, and didn't scuff up the basetape--didn't have a clue about this) and what did it get me?? 8th place in an 80+deep master's field on a fast, dry course where I imagine the tires hooked up quite hard in most of the corners, stressing the adhesion for sure.

I wanted to be nervous about my lack of tubular attachment skills after reading this thread, but hey, it worked out.

caveat: I weigh 155 and ran 35 psi, which is the low recommended limit for the tires. That is probably slightly more pressure than most 'pro' folks recommend, but everything felt right about how the bike handled.

[sailorboy]

oh and ps, I was actually catching the lead group in the technical sections and only got gapped off on the long open power sections, so it's not like I nursed the bike in the corners.

[MilanoTom]

The fact that there are so many different ways to do this, most of which work perfectly well, suggests to me that it really doesn't matter that much how you do it.

You're pretty much on the money (within some level of reason, of course).

Regards,
Tom

[yakstone]

Panaracer cement is getting harder to find. Anyone have a good source?

[djg]

Panaracer cement is getting harder to find. Anyone have a good source?

try world class cycles -- a good source for tubular tires and stuff, if you don't have a local one

[jamaris]

You're pretty much on the money (within some level of reason, of course).

Regards,
Tom

Cheap set of tires, some glue, wheels, and then have a buddy who knowss omething checkem, but do it without any help (after observing of course)

[gearguywb]

Depending on your location.....and how much beer you have in the fridge....I would be glad to help :)

P.S. Tape is the way to go for road tires. Cross...glue and Belgian tape.

[oldpotatoe]

Panaracer cement is getting harder to find. Anyone have a good source?

Yer in Loveland, I'm in Boulder...I always have Panaracer tubie glue in cans.

BTW to the other poster-There is no one way 'to go'..I use glue, never tape, on any wheel, road or cross. If ya want to tape, tape away but...'the way to go, only way', when it comes to gluing on tubulars, is not true.

[gavingould]

I guess I'm one of the old schoolers, glue only. If I used tubies on the road I'd probably tape but I don't see the need for 'cross to do the Belgian tape method... A solid glue job hasn't failed me once.

[sailorboy]

I'm going to go ahead and eat some crow for the benefit of the forum community...in my race today--the third on my set of taped-only tubulars, I ran a lower pressure due to wet conditions and sure enough, rolled the rear tire. Was in top 3 with two laps to go and no one behind me when it happened so it definitely stings.

Needless to say I'll be reverting to glue only for cross and not looking back.

Tape OK for road, not OK for cross. IMO and all that....