No Campionissimo for you!

[bluesea]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moser-nibali-is-only-a-good-rider-not-a-champion

[dd74]

Lots of opinions here.

"In my time, riders were stronger..." Really?

"To me, the only real great seems to be Contador." I tend to agree.

[Keith A]

“Nibali is only a good rider, not a champion. You need a lot more to merit that title. He tries and he tries, but he’s always lacking something.”

[bluesea]

Moser makes some good points, as well as reconfirming what is almost becoming a truth, that old cycling champions do not age well. Merckx being an exception.

[don compton]

Moser makes some good points, as well as reconfirming what is almost becoming a truth, that old cycling champions do not age well. Merckx being an exception.
Extremely weak comment without any facts. Moser is in great shape and your comment is a great example of B.S. that should be disregarded on the internet.
Like they say," If its on the internet, it must be true". NOT

[rustychisel]

Moser makes some good points, as well as reconfirming what is almost becoming a truth, that old cycling champions do not age well. Merckx being an exception.


Disagree.

Moser has done enough to warrant having his opinion listened too. And I feel he's right is suggesting Nibali doesn't quite have the attitude, or, in fact, the support. Viz the TDF where he was all too often isolated and marginalised through lack of a strong team.

That said, it's a truism that champions will often claim greatness through statements such as "not as strong as I" or "back in my day" and these can also be attributed to human nature, rose coloured glasses, and all too often, poor translations without subtlety.

As to former champions saying dumb things; there's one I recall quite likes to claim he's the most tested athlete on the planet. But that's all by the by; the final word will come from Bernard Hinault, who can always be counted on.

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of opinions here.

"In my time, riders were stronger..." Really?

"To me, the only real great seems to be Contador." I tend to agree.

Really.

Longer races, more races, tougher conditions. There were no stages neutralized because the weather was bad or the climbs or descents too steep(whiny schlek sisters-for example). Less specialization, more all 'rounders', more really tough guys..in the 60s-70s eras when Moser was starting and Merckx was finishing.

Contador...I guess, he seems to win often.

But unlike the 60s-70s..when Moser and Merckx and Gimondi and ++..won grand tours and classics, well, that doesn't happen anymore. Boonen or Griepel aren't going to win even the minor tours anytime soon, not is Contador going to win L-B-L or Roubaix. .

[Vientomas]

Really.

Longer races, more races, tougher conditions. There were no stages neutralized because the weather was bad or the climbs or descents too steep(whiny schlek sisters-for example). Less specialization, more all 'rounders', more really tough guys..in the 60s-70s eras when Moser was starting and Merckx was finishing.

Contador...I guess, he seems to win often.

But unlike the 60s-70s..when Moser and Merckx and Gimondi and ++..won grand tours and classics, well, that doesn't happen anymore. Boonen or Griepel aren't going to win even the minor tours anytime soon, not is Contador going to win L-B-L or Roubaix. .

Lots of "enhanced" performances in the '60's and 70's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

1960
Knud Enemark Jensen of Denmark participated in the 1960 Summer Olympic Games in Rome riding under the influence of amphetamines; he collapsed during the 100 km team time trial during the Games, fracturing his skull, and in a nearby Rome hospital shortly thereafter, he was pronounced dead. The autopsy showed he had taken amphetamine and another drug, Ronicol (Ronicol Retard) (nicotinyl alcohol tartrate), a direct-acting peripheral vasodilator that causes flushing and may decrease blood pressure.[28] (He was also reported as swallowing 8 pills of phenylisopropylamine, 15 pills of amphetamine and coffee.[1]) The chairman of the Dutch cycling federation, Piet van Dijk, said of Rome that "dope - whole cartloads -[were] used in such royal quantities."[29][30] Jensen's death led to pressure on the International Olympic Committee, which studied a report on doping drawn up by doctors demanding dope controls.
Gastone Nencini of Italy, was discovered by Tour de France doctor Pierre Dumas in his bedroom with plastic tubes running from each arm to a bottle of blood; retransfusion was a legal practice at the time.[31] In the 1930s Scandinavian runners were believed to have used retransfusion to increase the number of corpuscles that carry oxygen to the muscles. In 1972, Dr Björn Ekblom of the Sport and Gymnastics Institute in Stockholm found that retransfusing cells increased oxygen uptake by nine per cent and athletic potential by 23 per cent.
Roger Rivière of France, admitted that his career ending crash in the 1960 Tour de France was probably attributable to using Palfium (Dextromoramide), a painkiller that affects reflexes and judgment, during the descent of the Col de Perjuret on Mont Aigoual.[26] Palfium was used to deaden pain in leg muscles where it was directly injected, (sometimes while riding). It was suggested that it had so numbed Riviere's fingers so that he couldn't feel the brake levers.[17] He said he had an injection of solucamphor and amphetamine before the start and swallowed several amphetamine tablets.[32] He said he was an addict who downed thousands of pills a year.
[edit]1962
The Wiel's-Groene Leeuw affair. At the stage from Luchon to Carcassonne of the 1962 Tour de France, twelve riders fell ill and said 'bad fish' was the cause. Tour doctor Pierre Dumas realized they had all been given the same drug by the same soigneur.[17] Hans Junkermann of Germany had been ill overnight so the start was delayed by 10 minutes, but at the first hill he got off his bike and sat by the roadside, telling onlookers "I ate bad fish at the hotel last night."[33] Eleven other riders abandoned the Tour that day, including the former leader, Willy Schroeders, the 1960 winner Gastone Nencini and a future leader, Karl-Heinz Kunde. Jacques Goddet wrote that he suspected doping but nothing was proven - other than that none of the hotels had served fish the previous night.

[edit]1964
France passed its first anti-doping law in November 1964[34]

[edit]1965
Jacques Anquetil of France never hid that he took drugs - a common practice at the time - and in a debate with a government minister on French television said that only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux–Paris on just water. He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding: "Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."[35] There was implied acceptance of doping right to the top of the state: the president, Charles de Gaulle, said of Anquetil: "Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise [the French national anthem] abroad?"[36] The veteran reporter Pierre Chany said: "Jacques had the strength - for which he was always criticised - to say out loud what others would only whisper. So, when I asked him 'What have you taken?' he didn't drop his eyes before replying. He had the strength of conviction."[37]
French amateurs André Bayssière and Charly Grosskost collapsed in the Tour de l'Avenir in July. They were banned when they confessed to using amphetamines.[17]
Peter Post of the Netherlands acknowledged that he had doped at the Tour de France.[38]
Luis Santamarina of Spain was disqualified from the Milk Race in Great Britain, as one of three competitors who were caught in the first official blood tests. (See below - Performance-enhancing drugs became illegal) Having won a stage which started at Scarborough and crossed Rosedale Chimney, riding ahead of the race on one of the race's hardest climbs. He rode into the back of a car parked beside the road as an official waited to time him. He remounted and won the stage and led the race. Two days later he and three others were disqualified for doping. The Spanish team went home.[39][40]
Performance-enhancing drugs became illegal on 1 June 1965. The first riders to be caught were three amateurs, two Spanish (Luis Santamarina) and one British, who were thrown out of the Milk Race when they tested positive for amphetamines after Professor Arnold Beckett first applied sensitive gas chromatographic techniques to monitor drug abuse.[2][17][39]

[edit]1966
On 29 July testing began at the Tour de France. Raymond Poulidor was the first rider to be tested in the Tour at the end of a stage to Bordeaux. He said "I was strolling down the corridor in ordinary clothes when I came across two guys who asked if I was a rider. They made me go into a room, I pissed into some bottles and they closed them without sealing them. Then they took my name, my date of birth, without asking for anything to check my identity. I could have been anyone, and they could have done anything they liked with the bottles."[41] Next morning, on the way to the Pyrenees the riders climbed off, began walking and shouting protests.[42]

[edit]1967
Tom Simpson of Great Britain died of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of the 1967 Tour de France. The post mortem found that he had taken amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal when combined with the hot conditions, the notoriously hard climb of the Ventoux and a pre-existing stomach complaint. Investigators discovered more drugs in his hotel room at Sète and the pockets of his jersey[43][44]
Evert Dolman of the Netherlands, was stripped of his 1967 Dutch National Road Race Championship title because of doping.[45]
[edit]1969
Eddy Merckx of Belgium tested positive for the stimulant Reactivan at Savona during the 1969 Giro d'Italia, after leading the race through 16 stages. Merckx was found positive at doping control and expelled from the Giro. Merckx steadfastly denied the charges. The controversy began to swirl when his test results were not handled in the ordinary manner. The positive doping control was released to the press before all parties (Merckx and team officials) involved were notified.[46]
Joaquim Agostinho of Portugal tested positive in the Tour of Portugal.[47][48] He subsequently tested positive again in 1973,[47] and the Tour de France of 1977.[49]
[edit]1970s

[edit]1972
Jaime Huélamo of Spain finished third in the 1972 Summer Olympics men's individual road race but was later disqualified after he tested positive for coramine.[50][51]
Aad van den Hoek[52] of the Netherlands tested positive for Coramine at the Munich Olympics, a drug allowed by the International Cyclists' Union but not the IOC.[53][54][55]
[edit]1973
Eddy Merckx tested positive for a banned substance in the Giro di Lombardia classic. He was disqualified from first place. Runner-up Felice Gimondi was declared the winner.[56]
[edit]1974
In 1974, an advance in testing caught 13 prominent riders including Herman van Springel.

Roger Legeay of France tested positive for amphetamines at the Paris - Nice race.[57]
Claude Tollet of France tested positive for amphetamines at the Tour de France.[58]
[edit]1975
Bernard Thévenet of France won the 1975 Tour de France by using cortisone. In 1982, after retiring from racing, he said "I was doped with cortisone for three years and there were many like me. [...] The experience ruined my health".[59]
Erik de Vlaeminck of Belgium never failed a drugs test in his racing career, but he was treated after it for amphetamine addiction at a psychiatric institute. Many stories circulate about his reported wild behaviour after races and when he put his career on hold. When he returned to racing, the Belgian federation would offer him a licence for only a day at a time until it saw how his life would progress. He refuses to speak of this period of his life.
[edit]1976
Rachel Dard of France was reported to have raced across France to avoid a positive dope finding and then ended up in a row which exposed organised drug-taking in cycling in the 1970s.[60] Dard and a team-mate, Bourreau, were caught trying to defraud the doping control with a condom of untainted urine in their shorts to give the impression they were urinating.[61] A few weeks later Dard went to L'Équipe and spilled the inside story, including the prescriptions for dope that Bellocq, the team doctor, had given him.[62] He said riders treated with cortisone and steroids were now in "a pitiful state".[63]
In the 1976 Vuelta a España, Belgian cyclist Eric Jacques took over the lead in the eighth stage, but it was later revealed that he failed a doping test, and he was penalized by having ten minutes added to his total competition time.[64]
[edit]1977
Bernard Thévenet of France won the 1977 Tour de France with the aid of cortisone.[59]
Joop Zoetemelk of the Netherlands tested positive for Pemoline in the 1977 Tour de France, although Pemoline was a legal substance at that time. In the 1979 Tour de France he tested positive for 'hormones'.[65][66]
A Belgian doctor, Professor Michel Debackere, perfected a test for the detection of Pemoline, an amphetamine-like drug, and caught three of the biggest names in Belgium: Eddy Merckx, Freddy Maertens and Michel Pollentier.
[edit]1978
Michel Pollentier of Belgium was caught trying to cheat the drugs control with someone else's urine in a rubber bulb in his shorts after victory at Alpe d'Huez. He was ejected from the Tour. Ironically his own urine tested negative.[17] See Doping at the Tour de France - The Pollentier incident
José Nazabal of Spain anticipated a positive test at the Tour de France, and so left the race immediately after being tested. See Doping at the Tour de France - The Pollentier incident
Antoine Gutierrez of Spain caused doctor Le Calvez to be suspicious during a test, thus raising his jersey to reveal a system of tubes and a bottle of urine. See Doping at the Tour de France - The Pollentier incident
Gilbert Glaus of Switzerland, the World Amateur Champion, tested positive for steroids.
Jean-Luc van den Broucke of Belgium confessed that "In the Tour de France, I took steroids. That is not a stimulant, just a strengthener. If I hadn't, I would have had to give up. What do you think? I'm on the bike all year from February onwards, I have to do well in the classics in all the little races, and also in the Tour de France. On the first rest day, before we went into the Pyrenees, I had a first hormone injection. I had another one on the second day, at the start of the last week. You can't call that medically harmful, not if it's done under a doctor's control and within reason."[67] See Doping at the Tour de France - Steroids and allied drugs
[edit]1979
During the 1979 Tour de France, the leader of the mountains classification Giovanni Battaglin tested positive for doping in stage 13. He was penalized by 10 minutes in the general classification, lost the points that he earned in stage 13 and received 10 penalty points in the mountains classification.[68] Battaglin was still able to win the mountains classification.

Frans Van Looy and Gilbert Chaumaz also tested positive for doping during the Tour.[69] After the Tour de France had finished, Joop Zoetemelk was found to have used doping, which he confessed later. Zoetemelk was penalized by 10 minutes in the general classification, but kept his second place.[70]

[bluesea]

Really.

Longer races, more races, tougher conditions. There were no stages neutralized because the weather was bad or the climbs or descents too steep(whiny schlek sisters-for example). Less specialization, more all 'rounders', more really tough guys..in the 60s-70s eras when Moser was starting and Merckx was finishing.

Contador...I guess, he seems to win often.

But unlike the 60s-70s..when Moser and Merckx and Gimondi and ++..won grand tours and classics, well, that doesn't happen anymore. Boonen or Griepel aren't going to win even the minor tours anytime soon, not is Contador going to win L-B-L or Roubaix. .




That's the point. All respect for Moser, especially with 3 back to back wins at P-R--the one race I really care to watch as much as possible.

I agree with just about everything Moser said, but times have changed. With the effect of the new racing schedule and the all powerful media these days, palmares and panache have almost been superseded by 15 sec. of fame. Sad but true.


P.S. This is not about doping Vien, take it to another thread.

[oldpotatoe]

Lots of "enhanced" performances in the '60's and 70's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

1960
Knud Enemark Jensen of Denmark participated in the 1960 Summer Olympic [70]

Lots of 'doping in the 60s' snipped..yep, I'm SURE there was more doping then than now..yep, you bet.

(Sarcasm intended).

[Elefantino]

Not more, just much less sophisticated and scientific.

[Vientomas]

Lots of 'doping in the 60s' snipped..yep, I'm SURE there was more doping then than now..yep, you bet.

(Sarcasm intended).

I made no comparison of the doping of the riders of today vs. the riders of the 60's and 70's. That is your comparison. The information was provided to demonstrate that some of the performances of your hero's were unnatural. But thanks for the sarcastic reply.

Since you have brought up the comparison, it seems a bit juvenile to wax poetically about the "tough guys" from yesteryear when their some of their "successes" were the result of doping just as are some of the "successes" of the riders of today. Your comment has the tone of: "Well, back in my day we had to walk 20 miles to school every day in waist deep snow all year 'round through bear and Indian country. You kids who ride the bus today have it easy."

There was, and there continues to be, lots of doping being done by professional cyclists, and professional cyclists have always performed under difficult circumstances. To single out 2 decades as being the height of the hard men really does a disservice to those who came before and those who followed.

Yeah, it means a lot to me when Moser (the blood doper) saying Contador (the doper) is a true champion. (Sarcasm intended).

[tiretrax]

Doping and cheating have alway been in cycling.

The point that racers were tougher is valid. The great champions raced the full season.

[oldpotatoe]

Doping and cheating have alway been in cycling.

The point that racers were tougher is valid. The great champions raced the full season.

My point, grazie...

Lots of doping then, as now. BUT the racing was harder, the season longer, more raced many races of all lengths, not just the specialty racing of today.

Like somebody mentioned, doping leveled the playing field then as now but that field then was longer, colder, wetter, steeper. Raced by harder men, not like some of the nancys racing today. Contador included, along with the sisters.

As I mentioned, Contador won't win a classic, Boonen won't win a Tour of any length.

[54ny77]

Back then racers wore wool, raced uphill both ways, in the snow (even during summer, just because it snowed during summer in those days) with a tubular criss-crossed on their back. All while smoking Gauloises.

:D

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Vientomas;1216002]I made no comparison of the doping of the riders of today vs. the riders of the 60's and 70's. That is your comparison. The information was provided to demonstrate that some of the performances of your hero's were unnatural. But thanks for the sarcastic reply.

You are welcome. My hero's...yep, Eddy is one of my hero's.

Let's see, this is about riders of the past being compared to riders of today...you brought up doping of the past riders...hmmmm, then I mentioned doping of today's riders and those of the past...doesn't matter, it's guys racing bicycles..the guys in the 60s and 70s were harder men on THAT playing field made level by PEDs, then today..nobody raced 'paniaqua', as Tyler called it(bread and water).

[cfox]

My point, grazie...

Lots of doping then, as now. BUT the racing was harder, the season longer, more raced many races of all lengths, not just the specialty racing of today.

Like somebody mentioned, doping leveled the playing field then as now but that field then was longer, colder, wetter, steeper. Raced by harder men, not like some of the nancys racing today. Contador included, along with the sisters.

As I mentioned, Contador won't win a classic, Boonen won't win a Tour of any length.
I agree with you for the most part, but let's be fair...Contador came close to winning Fleche a couple of years ago. He could win L-B-L if he focused on it, even in a year where he was targeting the TDF. I mean, Miss A. Schleck won L-B-L.

edit: I recognize L-B-L as probably the hardest one day race on the calendar

[dd74]

And then there's the old school 42-tooth small chain wheel and the 12-23 freewheel to consider if one wants to compare the old days to today.

[CunegoFan]

Lots of "enhanced" performances in the '60's and 70's.


That is Moser on the right. A gold star for those who can identify the other two.

http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Conconi-Ferrari-Moser-1987-620x372.jpg

I think Nibali rode well this year. His level has gone up a step. If it were not for the rather suspicious UK Postal, Nibali would have been the first Italian TdF winner since Pantani. That was a great result for him considering the amount of ITT kilometers in the race.

Being on the same team as Basso limited his options. On Astana he will not have those problems. I hope he goes for the Giro next year.

[dancinkozmo]

Moser should just STFU....his giro "win" was a joke

[cfox]

That is Moser on the right. A gold star for those who can identify the other two.

.

Blood Manipulators Inc. Ferrari and Conconi

[malcolm]

Was it harder or is it that the top dogs just focus on the one event now? If you want to win the tour you seem to have to focus your entire season on that one event.

It certainly makes the sport less exciting for me but I'm not sure they were tougher. I'll give you there seems to be more whining now than before but that might just come from more coverage.

I like moser, but to me that article made him look a little like a dick, sometimes the truth will do that.

[ultraman6970]

IMO is not a thing he is being a dick, he is just singing the thing as it is. Cipo has the same problem when he just go and say something about a rider.

Have to agree with many, dope back in the day and today are different. Bikes are different and racing styles are different but either way I think moser is somehow right. Italian campionisimos are gone since long time ago, remember back in the day in the worlds or any small tours around the world, italy sent their teams and they were well respected.. ooooohhh the italians are comming... but now that is no more.

Nivali is the best they have that is actually clean, but is way long from be promoted to the status of campionisimo.

Moser started the year 75 as a pro, by 77 he was world champion already, he was like 27 y/o plus 3 P-R... 78/79/80... the year 78 he was 29ish y/o... so pretty much the old man was way ahead of nibali already at the same age, IMO he has some arguments for his comments.

For the ones looking for data http://www.museociclismo.it/ has pantani, moser and nibali palmares, and so far moser has way more 1st places than any of those two.

Probably the last campeonisimo was pantani but if you look at it, his palmares isn't like that super impressive either (just being objective) compared with other riders from the same era than pantani. The other situation is that if you are quite objective to see the situation pantani maybe who knows since when he was racing juiced (reminds me ricco), he started when he was like 7 y/o... and the guys just have to dope to be able to outstand the zillion of other riders that want to go pro aswell. Probably if it wasnt for the way everything ended he could not have been the venerated icon he is right now because probably at some point everything was going to "go out" as is happening and happened with all the puerto operation guys and LA for example.

Probably the last Campionisimo was just Moser himself.

Please pantani lovers dont kill me ok? just trying to give an objective opinion of the guy.

[CunegoFan]

IMO is not a thing he is being a dick, he is just singing the thing as it is. Cipo has the same problem when he just go and say something about a rider.

Have to agree with many, dope back in the day and today are different. Bikes are different and racing styles are different but either way I think moser is somehow right. Italian campionisimos are gone since long time ago, remember back in the day in the worlds or any small tours around the world, italy sent their teams and they were well respected.. ooooohhh the italians are comming... but now that is no more.

Nivali is the best they have that is actually clean, but is way long from be promoted to the status of campionisimo.

Moser started the year 75 as a pro, by 77 he was world champion already, he was like 27 y/o plus 3 P-R... 78/79/80... the year 78 he was 29ish y/o... so pretty much the old man was way ahead of nibali already at the same age, IMO he has some arguments for his comments.

For the ones looking for data http://www.museociclismo.it/ has pantani, moser and nibali palmares, and so far moser has way more 1st places than any of those two.

Probably the last campeonisimo was pantani but if you look at it, his palmares isn't like that super impressive either (just being objective) compared with other riders from the same era than pantani. The other situation is that if you are quite objective to see the situation pantani maybe who knows since when he was racing juiced (reminds me ricco), he started when he was like 7 y/o... and the guys just have to dope to be able to outstand the zillion of other riders that want to go pro aswell. Probably if it wasnt for the way everything ended he could not have been the venerated icon he is right now because probably at some point everything was going to "go out" as is happening and happened with all the puerto operation guys and LA for example.

Probably the last Campionisimo was just Moser himself.


Bettini probably qualifies. None of the modern riders will have records comparable to the older eras. There is too much competition and too much specialization.

[ultraman6970]

Have to agree with you.