Pegoretti Marcelo

[norcalbiker]

Poll......

Would you buy a Marcelo?

[christian]

At retail? Probably not. At $1600 f/f/hs for a used 56? Every day of the week. Twice on Tuesday. Not on Sunday - out riding.

[wooly]

I try not to purchase bike frames at retail but having ridden by Responsorium for 1000 miles I would consider buying a Peg new and paying retail. I am finding that top shelf frames are so damn expensive now that they all seem to be $3500+, whether it's carbon, steel, ti, etc. So if a Marcelo is 'the" bike for you, ie - you've ridden one and you love it, I would buy it new.

[thwart]

No.

But I'd buy a Duende.

At MSRP. :cool:

[norcalbiker]

At retail? Probably not. At $1600 f/f/hs for a used 56? Every day of the week. Twice on Tuesday. Not on Sunday - out riding.

That's funny.

[bluesea]

No.

But I'd buy a Duende.

At MSRP. :cool:



This. I don't need the stiffer rear triangle of the Marcelo.

I still need to know how the Responsorium differs in ride quality compared to the Duende.

[tiretrax]

It's the model I see being resold most often. I wonder why.

[norcalbiker]

So if a Marcelo is 'the" bike for you, ie - you've ridden one and you love it, I would buy it new.

Here is the deal.

I have never ridden a Pegoretti in my life. I did own a De Rosa and Colnago in the past and they are both steel frame. So I do know how the steel frame rides and I am not going to lie, that I do miss them both time to time.

I have a friend who happens to know someone that ordered a Marcelo 2 years ago and it's finally here. It's my size believe or not. The owner built 2 different bikes since then and decided to not built the Pegoretti. Make a long story short, he is offering me this frame and fork (Reynolds) for $2700.

The funny thing about this is. I have a full 10 speed Campy Record Carbon Grouppo sitting in my garage with Reynolds MV32 Clincher wheels that I just taken off from my 585. I decided to built the 585 with Sram Red for climbing.

Hmmm.....

[christian]

It's the most popular model, by far.

Also, should be said that I owned a Palosanto. It did everything right. A Marcelo could only be better. (I sold it only because my fit ideal changed - I am longer and lower now.)

[christian]

A Marcelo with Record 10s is a lifetime bike. $2700 for a new f/f is a fair price. Enjoy!

[norcalbiker]

A Marcelo with Record 10s is a lifetime bike. $2700 for a new f/f is a fair price. Enjoy!

I know!!!

Did I mention that my Record 10 is the tapered square. That old. :)

[jblande]

I think the reason one sees so many for sale is that it is the most popular Pegoretti.

I bought one three years ago. It is a tad too big for me, but the ride is superb.

[thwart]

I have never ridden a Pegoretti in my life. I did own a De Rosa and Colnago in the past and they are both steel frame. So I do know how the steel frame rides and I am not going to lie, that I do miss them both time to time.My Duende is about as similar to my DeRosa NeoPrimato in ride quality as is my Look 481 SL.

All very good, just different...

[jimcav]

Poll......

Would you buy a Marcelo?

my old 55cm marcelo why not is what i compare bikes to, although i may now use my recently sold Ellis as the benchmark. I think if i dial in my respo just a touch more, I will like it as much. many great bikes out there though--is it the new falz fork too?

the thing is, it is bike and you will ride it, so if you wait, a very nice, well cared for one or something else will come along here for hundreds less...

I was not in truth as thrilled as i should have been when my wife got me my respo--if i was going to buy new, i'd have gotten the better fit 55 vice 56cm size, and I would have asked for some form of custom paint--in fact the whole PEG discussion started when I told her I had emailed him about incorporating a very cool (to me) drawing my son did at age 3 into the scheme.

but then i have a great steel bike x3 right now, if you don't and don't want to wait for one to pop up on the forum, that is certainly a great deal compared to buying it retail.

[Climb01742]

I have bought two Marcelos. The one I have now has a custom paint job and is my daily ride.

[cp43]

I rode one around a parking lot once about 3 or 4 years ago. I still want one. For that price, and if it fits, and you have a group to put on it, yes, I'd say go for it.

Chris

[Joachim]

At retail? Probably not. At $1600 f/f/hs for a used 56? Every day of the week.

I'm with Christian on this one. If I would pay retail, I would like full custom with a Ciavete scheme. Otherwise just point me in the direction of a 55cm stock. Thanks!

[nrs5000]

If you don't get it, you'll probably always wonder "what if." Once a few years ago I passed on a used Pegoretti and regretted it. Then a NOS alu Peg came into my life this summer and it makes me very happy. ST Record 10, too.

[Fixed]

If I were going to buy it would be the monk bike
I am a jazz fan and Dario fan
Cheers

[Spin71]

No.

But I'd buy a Duende.

At MSRP. :cool:

Would and have.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I know!!!

Did I mention that my Record 10 is the tapered square. That old. :)

Record (or Chorus or Centaur) 10 square taper isn't old. Just better.:rolleyes:.

"I have a friend who happens to know someone that ordered a Marcelo 2 years ago and it's finally here. It's my size believe or not. The owner built 2 different bikes since then and decided to not built the Pegoretti. Make a long story short, he is offering me this frame and fork (Reynolds) for $2700."

What size, and is it for sale? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ultratoad]

I bought my Marcelo new a few years back.... I would do it again in a second.... Exceptional ride....

[cmg]

yes, and if you don't buy it please have your friend post it in the classifieds here along with the geometry and photos.

[fuzzalow]

I have bought 2 Pegorettis. Paid MSRP less $100 or so for each. How's that for hedge fund rainmaker material?

The Marcelo was purchased as the 2nd of those 2 Pegorettis with custom geometry. After what I learned from the 1st Pegoretti, I knew to go custom with the 2nd one. Which then is the condition that takes me out of the pre-owned Pegoretti market. Marcelos may be a popular model but custom Marcelos are few and far between. But I have mine and it isn't going anywhere.

Apologies for sounding like a skipped record (broken MP3 file to you kids): Buy that Great-Deal Marcelo only if you know your fit and the Marcelos numbers are amenable to yours. Easy to take a good bike a screw it up with a bad fit (tm).

[wooly]

Here is the deal.

I have never ridden a Pegoretti in my life. I did own a De Rosa and Colnago in the past and they are both steel frame. So I do know how the steel frame rides and I am not going to lie, that I do miss them both time to time.

I have a friend who happens to know someone that ordered a Marcelo 2 years ago and it's finally here. It's my size believe or not. The owner built 2 different bikes since then and decided to not built the Pegoretti. Make a long story short, he is offering me this frame and fork (Reynolds) for $2700.

The funny thing about this is. I have a full 10 speed Campy Record Carbon Grouppo sitting in my garage with Reynolds MV32 Clincher wheels that I just taken off from my 585. I decided to built the 585 with Sram Red for climbing.

Hmmm.....

For that price I would do it. That is if you like the paint. Just know it will probably be stiffer than the two "I"talians that you've ridden.

[RkyMtn]

I bought a Marcelo and a Duende to see what all the love was about. A month after riding the Marcelo, I ordered a custom and got it 1.5 years later. Sold the first Marcelo to a lucky forum member in San Francisco and eventually sold the Duende to another forumite (I held on to it so long just because I loved the Black Ethnic paint scheme. The Marcelo and Duende were just too close in ride characteristic to keep both and I needed space for a Kirk. Pegoretti *IS* worth the cost. The ride pushes the envelope of the trade-off of lateral stiffness yet also being vertically compliant to the max. I am still debating which I like better, my Marcelo or my custom Serotta Meivici, that is how good the Marcelo is.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=67894

[uber]

Get it. No one makes a nicer frame.

[pdmtong]

price is good but pass if you are a weight weenie. marcelo is about the ride, not the weight.

[Peter B]

Poll......

Would you buy a Marcelo?

I did. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=104260)

[Kirk007]

I did, and if and when a trip to Italy is in the cards there will be a stop and a custom order made. Great bike.

[tttsmm]

i did too... (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa228/wki72/IMG_0936.jpg)

[merckx]

The Marcelo is the best production steel frame available. It is worth every penny at MSRP.

[Marz]

Here is the deal.

I have never ridden a Pegoretti in my life. I did own a De Rosa and Colnago in the past and they are both steel frame. So I do know how the steel frame rides and I am not going to lie, that I do miss them both time to time.

I have a friend who happens to know someone that ordered a Marcelo 2 years ago and it's finally here. It's my size believe or not. The owner built 2 different bikes since then and decided to not built the Pegoretti. Make a long story short, he is offering me this frame and fork (Reynolds) for $2700.

The funny thing about this is. I have a full 10 speed Campy Record Carbon Grouppo sitting in my garage with Reynolds MV32 Clincher wheels that I just taken off from my 585. I decided to built the 585 with Sram Red for climbing.

Hmmm.....

Gee can I buy your Record 10 speed groupset for MY 585 build, pretty please....

[Marz]

I know!!!

Did I mention that my Record 10 is the tapered square. That old. :)

Oh no... must have, must have.

I have a Marcelo...overrated... now sell me the Record 10.

Kidding of course. All good gear, the Marcelo is sublime, but I have temporarily moved the chorus/record groupset on to the 585 until a Record 10 square taper gruppo shows up.

[dsb]

It's only Chorus but...

http://mybloodybikeblog.com/pegoretti-marcelo/

[Marz]

It's only Chorus but...

http://mybloodybikeblog.com/pegoretti-marcelo/

I have the identical paint on mine. It's "Cappoccia", Italian slang for "face".

[CaliFly]

Poll......

Would you buy a Marcelo?


Don't need to. My Duende works just beautifully. :banana::banana::banana:

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[bluesea]

The opp this Marcelo-for-sale brings to the table will be regretted if passed over--the chance to answer one of life's important questions. Do I really want a Pegoretti?

[norcalbiker]

The Marcelo is the best production steel frame available. It is worth every penny at MSRP.

You mean better than Merckx?

[norcalbiker]

i did too... (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa228/wki72/IMG_0936.jpg)

Very nice!!!

[norcalbiker]

Gee can I buy your Record 10 speed groupset for MY 585 build, pretty please....

No, but you can see what's 585 with record look like. :bike:

[norcalbiker]

The opp this Marcelo-for-sale brings to the table will be regretted if passed over--the chance to answer one of life's important questions. Do I really want a Pegoretti?

Very good question.

[roguedog]

I agree with everyone else.

Get the peg. It's a great ride. I don't have a Marcelo but do have the palosanto. I would love to get a duende or response. I don't have tons of bike history riding all diff bikes but to me, it just rides right. I sold my carbon bike (giant tcr) cuz I was riding this (and my riv) even though its really a tad big for me but so was the giant.

Plus, like someone said..you'll always wonder. Get it and make your own assessment.

[JLP]

Yeah, the Pegoretti is just fantastic. I will never part with mine.

As to the comment about the rear being too stiff, well, everyone is different, but I use mine all the time on 200k rides, and I have never once thought it was too stiff.

I'd ride it on longer rides, but I don't want it all filled with bags and lights.

You won't go wrong.

[Liv2RideHard]

If the bike fits and you want it get it. I have ridden a Marcelo. Superb ride. Smooth, compliant, stiff but will not be harsh, does not argue with your input, climbs like a rocket, sprints even faster, descends like an arrow and is not twitchy or argumentative. The bike is amazing. Dario builds these with a purpose. They are special bikes. I want one.

Which fork? The new Falz fork is worth it. If it does not have the Falz fork and probably does not considering its age, be patient and get one.

[jmeloy]

Love mine in many ways. Would second a couple of the comments above about fit. A 55 would have been a better choice for me than the 56 the fitter put me on. Struggled for a few months to get Ti right until I went to a post with no setback (Dario apparently hates them) and BANG it fits great. I'm 190 lbs and no complaints about the rear being too stiff. Just a great great ride!

[sw3759]

"The new Falz fork is worth it. If it does not have the Falz fork and probably does not considering its age, be patient and get one"

can you expand on that remark a little please?

or can someone who has ridden a Marcelo with the Falz as well as an Edge or Ouzo pro explain in what way the it is a better fork than either of these two?
i have a Ouzo pro and its a pretty good fork for my weight.i think a an Edge would problably look more modern the reynolds looks a little dated but it least the paint matches.

[pdmtong]

"The new Falz fork is worth it. If it does not have the Falz fork and probably does not considering its age, be patient and get one"

can you expand on that remark a little please?

or can someone who has ridden a Marcelo with the Falz as well as an Edge or Ouzo pro explain in what way the it is a better fork than either of these two?
i have a Ouzo pro and its a pretty good fork for my weight.i think a an Edge would problably look more modern the reynolds looks a little dated but it least the paint matches.

dario designed his frames around the OP. he likes curved forks too. when reynolds ceased production, most folks turned to edge for obvious reasons. dario does not like the aesthertics of the edge.

2009.5-2012 frames shipped with trigon forks. trigon is a HUGE carbon facility in asia.

falz has finally arrived. beautiful shoulders. clearance for wide tires.

I have read claims of how nice falz is....that said, it's hard to ding the OP which was for many years the gold standard. no one I know complains about trigon. falz looks good, and is a natrual evolution. but I'm not planning to switch. its going to be awhile before they are available standalone, then there is the next to impossible task of getting it painted to match my frame (current trigon shares the frameset ciavete schema)

anyone with experience on all three and an opinion I'd love to hear too.

[sw3759]

i did a search after my last post and found more of the details on the falz.its got gobs of clearance but your still going to limited in the rear,which can fit 25's easy.enough for me and most folks i assume.
i'm not sure there are going to be many with real world experience with this fork since it is so new.
supposed to be available in black and white,hopefully the same white as my thelonious which is a pretty basic glossy white.
still no info on what these will cost....


http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/dario-pegoretti-falz-fork/

[Peter P.]

I'd buy the Pegoretti for the exclusivity and the paint job-only if the fork was painted as well. One of the hallmarks of a Pegoretti is the paint and a black carbon fork is a bastard child. Dario has no magic geometry or secret mix of tubes and dimensions, but the cachet of owning such a piece of art has value in itself.

Otherwise, I think the frame is overpriced even at $2700. You can get a custom steel frame and fork built in the U.S. for much less than that. For $50 more you can get a limited edition LUGGED Steelman with fork.

[Lionel]

I have not ridden a falx but they sure look great.

[sjbraun]

I have the good fortune to own each of these frames. Based largely on comments from owners who posted on the forum, I bought a Marcelo in 2006. To my surprise and delight, everything people said about the frame turned out to be true. The frame really does ride as well as people claim. The only thing I'd change about my Marcelo would be tire clearance. I'd love to be able to use 28mm tires, but that's because I sometimes like to ride places where Dario never intended the bike to go. The Marcelo is a race bike, not a gravel road, let's see what happens if we turn here frame.
When I decided to try a carbon frame I again took the counsel of forum members, purchasing a NOS 585 that had languished unsold in a shop for two years. The ride of the 585 reminds me a lot of the Marcelo, maybe just a bit amplified. The Look is quicker handling (but in no way twitchy or otherwise unnerving,) and climbs a bit better.
But both bikes are just a blast to ride; they go as fast as I can make them, descend confidently, and serve me well on all day rides.

Get the Marcelo. I suspect you'll enjoy the heck out of it. If not, you can always sell for mostbof what it cost you. Some have suggested that buying from one of the many excellent US builders would be preferable. American steel builders are making totally fantastic bikes, not a bad choice at all. (My wife's La Suprema is a great example of US craft, http://www.edsbikes.us/swirl.htm ) Either way, you have great options.

Steve- who will be on the Pegoretti shortly.

[Liv2RideHard]

Dario has no magic geometry or secret mix of tubes and dimensions, but the cachet of owning such a piece of art has value in itself.


Huh? Please expand upon this statement. One of the reasons to ride a Peg is specifically b/c of Dario's geo and tubing. This statement is confusing to me. So then you are implying all handbuilts are all the same and there is no difference between a Peg and a SV or a Kirk and a Firefly.

If the OP has a chance to get a frame built by the Master, he should go for it. It is special and the tubing and geo has meaning and is specific. Very specific.

[roguedog]

American steel builders are making totally fantastic bikes, not a bad choice at all. (My wife's La Suprema is a great example of US craft, http://www.edsbikes.us/swirl.htm )


Sorry for the segway. Checked this guy's work. Very interesting site. I like that it's not a typical site with bike pics, tubing, etc. I like his creativity. Who is this guy?

Back on topic, Norcal...did you get it? If not, as Cmg said, post the frame.. I'm not proud, I'll takes your seconds!

[fuzzalow]

Otherwise, I think the frame is overpriced even at $2700. You can get a custom steel frame and fork built in the U.S. for much less than that. For $50 more you can get a limited edition LUGGED Steelman with fork.

The purchase price includes the buyer's recognition of Dario's oeuvre which is something not any U.S. builder can proffer. How many builders have the breadth of experience and credibility for as long as Dario has had. And yet whose current work is not beholden to and maudlin towards his framebuilding past. Still innovating after all these years. IMO.

I see the allusion to trying to tap into the vibe of 80's steel with the frame mentioned here. Plugin seatstays, the horror. Well, must have meant very late 80's, which by then all the romance was long long gone.

[PoppaWheelie]

All that needs to be said has been said...but I'll add one more to the pile:

I've owned a Duende and a Marcelo. At 175ish, the Marcelo was too much bike for me. I MUCH prefer my steel Speedvagen. Not sure if it was just that particular frame, but the Marcelo was a brick. And that's coming from someone who also had a Gaulzetti Corsa in his garage at the time. I do suspect there was something going on with that particular frame though. I had it third or fourth hand and the prior owner sold it to me with the exact same complaint. Maybe it was originally built for a 250lb slugger.

[Peter P.]

Huh? Please expand upon this statement. One of the reasons to ride a Peg is specifically b/c of Dario's geo and tubing. This statement is confusing to me. So then you are implying all handbuilts are all the same and there is no difference between a Peg and a SV or a Kirk and a Firefly.

If the OP has a chance to get a frame built by the Master, he should go for it. It is special and the tubing and geo has meaning and is specific. Very specific.

Thanks for asking.

Framebuilding isn't alchemy and nobody's got a patent on a geometry. I'm saying Steelman could duplicate the Marcelo's geometry in one of his TIG'd frames and you'd hardly know the difference. If performance is what you're after, 5mm here or 1cm there will not transform a rider from packfill to podium resident. If you can feel the nuanced differences between frames and prefer one over another, then buy what satisfies you. But people speak of some builders as if they were demi-gods and I'm saying the performance of a demi-god frame can easily by replicated for substantially less money. You just won't get the stylin' paint job or the persona behind the frame.

I feel a person buys a Marcelo/Speedvagen/Kirk/Firefly more for features beyond the geometry and materials, such as aesthetics or image. No problem there because if it makes you happy then it's worth whatever you paid for it.

[bluesea]

D*A*M*N FOO!!! I'm sure that's what Mr T would say for me buying my Peg for the geometry and tubing, including the rear triangle. Can't speak for my EOM 16.5 Duende, but I thought I read the XCR and Spirit tubing now being used are proprietary. That would be one of my reasons for getting a new Duende or Responsorium.

Seriously, if I decide to keep this Duende I plan to have it blasted and painted for protection---no decals or stencils. Dario calls himself a blacksmith, and I take that literally. Just like the hand forged Japanese handplane knives and chisels i used to work with, the primary art is in the steel.

[dsb]

... but the Marcelo was a brick. <snip>

By way of possible explanation, I came across this a while back, it's supposed to be a list of bottom bracket deflections from Tour magazine...

*'I'll only put bbkt stiffness on here for these bikes. A smaller number means stiffer. They measure movement of the bottom bracket with 40kg weight on the cranks.

A smaller bike typically results with a smaller figure. Of note here the only 'tiny' bike reviewed is the SL2 tarmac. It is still not the stiffest on test though.

08 Ridley Noah - 0.44m
08 Scott Addict R2 - 0.45mm
Pegoretti Marcelo - 0.26mm
08 Pinarello Prince - 0.48mm
08 Bianchi 928 Carbon SL - 0.43mm
08 Look 585 Ultra - 0.26mm
08 Madone 5.2 - 0.48mm
08 Cannondale Super Six - 0.27mm
Scapin Dyesis S8 - 0.34mm
Pegoretti Responsorium - 0.40mm
08 Time Edge Pulse - 0.50mm
08 Bottecchia Ottavio - 0.31mm
Casati Marte - 0.59mm
09 BMC Racemaster - 0.48mm
Parlee Z4 - 0.54mm
09 Specialised Tarmac SL2 - 0.33mm
Guerciotti Khaybar - 0.61mm
09 Cervelo R3SL - 0.35mm
08 Ridley Helium - 0.29mm
Colnago Master X light - 0.35mm
Look 586 - 0.55mm
Independant Fabrication XS - 0.19mm
Willier Cento Uno - 0.52mm
09 Giant Advanced TCR SL - 0.35mm
08 Look 595 - 0.58mm
06 Cervelo Soloist - 0.21mm

Interesting that the steel and and ti/carbon bikes are producing some of the lowest numbers. Anybody who thinks a steel or ti bbkt is soft is clearly wrong.

This is obviously a test which has (in all reality) no real bearing on frame performance. I question anybody who can 'feel' 0.1 of a difference in bbkt stiffness whilst riding.'*

The original post is here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12738701&start=40

[fuzzalow]

But people speak of some builders as if they were demi-gods and I'm saying the performance of a demi-god frame can easily by replicated for substantially less money. You just won't get the stylin' paint job or the persona behind the frame.

I like Pegs but I'm not apostolic about them.

My counterpoint was that it was not salient to the discussion to inject a cost/benefit/value component into the mix. More importantly, it struck me as distasteful consumerism that a pretty good deal on a real Marcelo was deemed to be overpriced because maybe a copy of the geo could be made by a builder for substantially less money. I'd guess that could be an awkward conversation to have with a builder.

"It can be had for less" is mass market consumerism at its worst and a race to the bottom. But to be fair, parasitic losses owing to a copy or two won't make any difference or cause hardship.

Dario has earned his rep. It isn't a bad thing to pay a guy what he is worth.

Superfluous to say this but none of this is personal.

[Lionel]

I am not sure that I have seen the Marcelo or BLE chainstays on any other bike nor if Columbus offers them or not.

[SamIAm]

Thanks for asking.

But people speak of some builders as if they were demi-gods and I'm saying the performance of a demi-god frame can easily by replicated for substantially less money. You just won't get the stylin' paint job or the persona behind the frame.



I'm going to enthusiastically agree with the above. My recently acquired (low cost, relatively speaking) Pacenti is second to none in all ways that really matter on a bicycle.

[Kirk007]

I am not sure that I have seen the Marcelo or BLE chainstays on any other bike nor if Columbus offers them or not.

My understanding is some of that tubing is proprietary to Dario, just as Dave Kirk's tubing for his chainstays from Reynolds is proprietary. All this talk about replication makes logical sense, until you ride one. It's not just welding a bunch of off the shelf pipes together in a given geometry. That doesn't mean a Marcelo is a "better" bike than a copy cat Steelman would be, but it is and always will be a "different" bike as long as Dario is working with tubesets unavailable to other builders. Better - that's subjective and to each his own.

[G-Reg]

Thanks for asking.

Framebuilding isn't alchemy and nobody's got a patent on a geometry. .....But people speak of some builders as if they were demi-gods and I'm saying the performance of a demi-god frame can easily by replicated .....

I'll put in a 3rd on this!

While $2700 is starting to approach a reasonable price for a custom frame, what the OP is getting is not custom.

If you are looking just to get a bunch of gushing from faceless people on the internet, get a Peg.

[Lionel]

My understanding is some of that tubing is proprietary to Dario, just as Dave Kirk's tubing for his chainstays from Reynolds is proprietary. All this talk about replication makes logical sense, until you ride one. It's not just welding a bunch of off the shelf pipes together in a given geometry. That doesn't mean a Marcelo is a "better" bike than a copy cat Steelman would be, but it is and always will be a "different" bike as long as Dario is working with tubesets unavailable to other builders. Better - that's subjective and to each his own.

Yes and this was my point as well.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm going to enthusiastically agree with the above. My recently acquired (low cost, relatively speaking) Pacenti is second to none in all ways that really matter on a bicycle.

AND-"Originally Posted by Peter P.
Thanks for asking.

But people speak of some builders as if they were demi-gods and I'm saying the performance of a demi-god frame can easily by replicated for substantially less money. You just won't get the stylin' paint job or the persona behind the frame."

Yep, mee too..just a bike, altho the ride can be magical, the day beautiful, the 'bike' is just there to get you there...needs to fit and work, and ya gotta like riding it but lotsa bikes can do that.

[Peter P.]

I like Pegs but I'm not apostolic about them.

My counterpoint was that it was not salient to the discussion to inject a cost/benefit/value component into the mix. More importantly, it struck me as distasteful consumerism that a pretty good deal on a real Marcelo was deemed to be overpriced because maybe a copy of the geo could be made by a builder for substantially less money. I'd guess that could be an awkward conversation to have with a builder.

"It can be had for less" is mass market consumerism at its worst and a race to the bottom. But to be fair, parasitic losses owing to a copy or two won't make any difference or cause hardship.

Dario has earned his rep. It isn't a bad thing to pay a guy what he is worth.

Superfluous to say this but none of this is personal.

Well written and I agree with what you're saying. I also can see how "copying" could be seen as plagarism or even theft even though there's no such thing as owning the rights to a geometry.

What's even worse is purchasing frame "X" and trying to duplicate a prominent framebuilder's signature paint job to perhaps pass if off as an original.

I guess I more meant to insert my opinion that the tubing was not that important in the equation (again; MY OPINION) and you could readily purchase a high quality handbuilt American frame with virtually identical ride qualities for much less money than MSRP or even add customization for only fifty bucks more.

Again-my observation: Dario certainly has earned a reputation through the riders that were successful on his frames. It's just that I think his allure and popularity doesn't come from his frame geometry, tubing, or construction; many other builders have those areas covered too. Dario's aces are his paint jobs and for that you'll definitely pay a premium, even a premium I think is worth it.

[Kirk007]

Well written and I agree with what you're saying. I also can see how "copying" could be seen as plagarism or even theft even though there's no such thing as owning the rights to a geometry.

What's even worse is purchasing frame "X" and trying to duplicate a prominent framebuilder's signature paint job to perhaps pass if off as an original.

I guess I more meant to insert my opinion that the tubing was not that important in the equation (again; MY OPINION) and you could readily purchase a high quality handbuilt American frame with virtually identical ride qualities for much less money than MSRP or even add customization for only fifty bucks more.

Again-my observation: Dario certainly has earned a reputation through the riders that were successful on his frames. It's just that I think his allure and popularity doesn't come from his frame geometry, tubing, or construction; many other builders have those areas covered too. Dario's aces are his paint jobs and for that you'll definitely pay a premium, even a premium I think is worth it.

I think there's more to it than paint, and more to it than his years of experience amounting to paying one's dues that reward a premium. I think it is more that he has probably forgotten more frames that he has built or helped build than most American builders (with notable exceptions, most who charge more for their frames) have built. With that, comes accumulated knowledge particularly I would guess when building for decades of successful pro riders. And it gives him relationships with Columbus, Deda, WR Compositi etc that, as I understand it, give him leverage to get pipes built that are to his specs, tweaked for what he is looking for. And this, plus his newly designed fork, plus the paint costs $3300 this week for a new duende from Craig at International Bike in Boston.

Now, lets compare. A perusal of a lot of good but less renowned builder's websites shows that you can spec your brand of tubing, from one or two choices or perhaps the builder builds it for you, and the frame will cost somewhere between 1600 and 2400. That often doesn't include the fork. They may be in fact probably often are great bikes (steel Davidsons are, I think, a steal given Bill's experience and the quality that comes out of his shop - lightweight tigged steel plus Enve fork and single paint is $2000) but that is still, relatively speaking a lot of money for a frame. At this price point, we are all buying more than a tool. I'm not seeing the value equation favoring up and coming builder as much as it Dario. But, and i say this in seriousness, if there is a stock frame out there, steel, that matches my Peg in ride quality and construction, for significantly less money, please identify it (them) as I want to ride them!

[fuzzalow]

I guess I more meant to insert my opinion that the tubing was not that important in the equation (again; MY OPINION) and you could readily purchase a high quality handbuilt American frame with virtually identical ride qualities for much less money than MSRP or even add customization for only fifty bucks more.

Again-my observation: Dario certainly has earned a reputation through the riders that were successful on his frames. It's just that I think his allure and popularity doesn't come from his frame geometry, tubing, or construction; many other builders have those areas covered too. Dario's aces are his paint jobs and for that you'll definitely pay a premium, even a premium I think is worth it.

Cool. We can hold different views and the exchange of views is just that and is not about winning an argument.

I'd be the first to admit, I haven't a clue about what goes into making a magical ride. That's why I am convinced by a name on the downtube. So whatever theorems you have for or not about frame geometry, tubing, or construction is more than what I've got.

Heck, I'm the guy that always says once the fit is dialed in dead on, the bikes all ride about the same. Which either makes me oblivious or else very fortunate to all ride some pretty good bikes.

[brando]

At this price point, we are all buying more than a tool.

When I had my Palosanto it always felt like a finely balanced instrument compared to my other steel bikes. Definitely while riding and even while handling it in the garage it felt very attuned to my touch. It has a very intuitive ride, maybe that is the sum of all of Dario's expertise, specs and geo. Perhaps a very skilled builder could imitate it for a few bucks less. But I give a lot of respect to the builder who realized it in the first place and continues to refine his vision. When I retire from my current carbon bike I'm going back to a Pegoretti, most likely a Mxxxxo or Responsorium.

[dana_e]

Get the Gunnar.

[JLNK]

Based on the prices for new Pegoretti frames on the Gita website I could not justify the price as there are many quality builders who I would be comfortable ordering a frame from. After riding frames for years with (relatively) short top tubes, short chainstays, and short wheelbases and being told that "that is the way it is supposed to be" for a racing bicycle by European builders I "discovered" what it felt like to ride a nice custom steel frame with the geo Serotta used to use for their Rapid Tour frames - it is the geo I prefer now for a 62-63cm frame. Pegoretti would not build to this geo, I asked them. I didn't think they would but asked anyway - and it is OK that they would not - that is their right.

[round]

Based on the prices for new Pegoretti frames on the Gita website I could not justify the price as there are many quality builders who I would be comfortable ordering a frame from. After riding frames for years with (relatively) short top tubes, short chainstays, and short wheelbases and being told that "that is the way it is supposed to be" for a racing bicycle by European builders I "discovered" what it felt like to ride a nice custom steel frame with the geo Serotta used to use for their Rapid Tour frames - it is the geo I prefer now for a 62-63cm frame. Pegoretti would not build to this geo, I asked them. I didn't think they would but asked anyway - and it is OK that they would not - that is their right.
hi,
very interesting thread , especially this message . please could you explain better your criteria to justify a price ? it is just to try to understand the points of view of a customer.
thanks a lot
d

[fuzzalow]

^^ There he goes...

Reminds me of the Manhattan street life when a celebrity walks by. Most NYers are too cool to give it any note - They'll recognize a celebrity pass by at arms length on the sidewalk and show recognition only with a glance.

Tourists are often both not as quick and more excitable - Was that Mick Jagger??!!....OMG that was Mick Jagger!!

[bluesea]

^^ There he goes...




Very cool.

[pdmtong]

^^ There he goes...

... too cool to give it any note

... more excitable

can I be both? always special to have D join any of the conversations here and over there.

Some of the new frames have arrived at my LBS - velotech in palo alto.
The new pipes and fork look great. One respo was completely matte balcked out, with only gloss logo's. The other ciavete respo was white, with some beautiful silver touches under the various color splashes.

I hope the conversation that ensues will be thoughtful and engaging.

[pdmtong]

Again-my observation: Dario certainly has earned a reputation through the riders that were successful on his frames. It's just that I think his allure and popularity doesn't come from his frame geometry, tubing, or construction; many other builders have those areas covered too. Dario's aces are his paint jobs and for that you'll definitely pay a premium, even a premium I think is worth it.

I think the greatest allure is the singular connection with an individual who has lineage with the sport - he is one person who is connecting the past with the present. I may have this incorrect, but he was one of the early adopters and shapers of TIG technique. The paint is polarizing....beautiful to some, ghastly to others. (me, I like the paint). what is a bit unique is available inventory in stock sizes alongside custom made from a "one man shop".

My counterpoint was that it was not salient to the discussion to inject a cost/benefit/value component into the mix. More importantly, it struck me as distasteful consumerism that a pretty good deal on a real Marcelo was deemed to be overpriced because maybe a copy of the geo could be made by a builder for substantially less money. I'd guess that could be an awkward conversation to have with a builder.

Agreed +1000 with fuzzalow and now that the builder is in the house, we can have that conversation. There are functional equivalents at a lower price for for almost anything that can be purchased. that's great..it gives all of us more options to pursue our experiences. (hey, call mike and have him make you a "SV", save money by passing on the COAT paint and V dropouts).

In the end, I think its all about the aura and connection you want to feel with the builder/mfg of your machine. to each his own

[jimcav]

hi,
very interesting thread , especially this message . please could you explain better your criteria to justify a price ? it is just to try to understand the points of view of a customer.
thanks a lot
d

I just fear buying at retail again until I am sure on my fit (it seems to be changed after hip surgery). Rest assured, if the one i have works, I will just be adding a falz to it. If not, I will be contacting you for a custom, possibly asking you to incorporate a little abstract drawing my son did at age 3 in the design--and that is something personal to me, no comment on the artistry etc)

Jim (while not fast, still looking good on a stock 56cm respo CTS)

if we want to talk crazy prices, let's talk Baum...

[Lionel]

if we want to talk crazy prices, let's talk Baum...

or any of the "high end" carbon bike big brands. Most of them are 2x a Peg.

[dsb]

hi,
very interesting thread , especially this message . please could you explain better your criteria to justify a price ? it is just to try to understand the points of view of a customer.
thanks a lot
d

My view from the cheap seats...

First off, my Mxxxxxo is my all time favorite bike, and I started racing as a junior in the 1970's, I've ridden a few along the way...

At $3400.00 usd, if I had to replace mine because it got stolen or I got run over, I can't afford to buy another. It's just that simple, I've been priced out of Pegoretti ownership.

If you look around today at the price of bikes/frames, maybe $3400 looks about right compared to what's available, I don't know.

But, in 2006 when I bought my Mxxxxxo, I paid $1800.00 usd. $1600 seems like a lot to pay for 6 years of 'development'.

This is going to sound silly, but I think I'd have less of a problem paying $3400 for one of your frames (if I could afford it, which I can't...) if you were the one I was paying directly. As it stands, the shop gets a cut, and so does Gita.

Any shop I would be able to buy one of your bikes from is a shop that is unknown to me, and not local. I get no benefit from dealing with them other than access to your bikes.

I get the whole 'whatever the market will bear' thing, and you'd be crazy to not get as much for your bike as you can. Besides, it's not like your bikes are sitting around collecting dust 'cause they cost more than people are willing to pay for them.

Sadly, I can't afford to be part of that 'market'...

I pray mine lasts forever...

Dave

http://mybloodybikeblog.com/pegoretti-marcelo/

[jblande]

I, for one, would not forgo the opportunity to have a Marcelo that I can reasonably afford, just because I cannot buy two.


I did not decide not to go on vacation because, if things went catastrophically wrong, I would not be able to go a second time.

Just too much risk aversion if you ask me.

Life is too short not to ride a great bike if you can.

[Germany_chris]

I don't get the Peg love just like I don't get the Merckx love..

I do however like the paint a great deal it's almost punk in its attitude.

[Kirk007]

I don't get the Peg love just like I don't get the Merckx love..


Perhaps you could expand on this statement. I'm perplexed by unqualified statements like this, and the "demi-God" type comments that often appear in threads re Pegs. I could get, "I rode a [Marcelo] [MX Leader] and I thought such and such. But if you haven't ridden one .... How is "Peg love or Merckx love" any different from Serotta love, 'vette love, Rivendell love, Porsche love, Ducati love .... Most folks who are effusive about a brand are effusive for a reason and that is usually some first hand experience with the brand. If you haven't tried it then what does the "I don't get" statement add to the discussion? And we are on a high end bike forum - hardly unusual to have a lot of enthusiastic folks waxing on about things they are passionate about.

I love my Marcelo, just as i love my Motorola MX Leader, my Kirk and my Kirk. I love looking at them. I loved figuring out what parts to hang on them. Most of all I love riding them because they are all "laterally stiff and vertically compliant"; they "climb like billy goats and descend like they are on rails"; they "accelerate like a scalded cat", and most and most important of all, each of them planes. No, seriously, each of them puts a smile on my face particularly when I'm riding them, and for me that's the true measure.

I've ridden a lot of other high end bikes. They are no longer here. That's mostly been a decision driven by fit or function. But they were all close enough that I "got" that they were very good bikes. What's not to love about a well crafted bike?

[TimD]

Coming to this a little late, sorry.

I chose a Marcelo after Gita, bless them, honored a warranty claim on a Pinarello Opera which cracked at the BB/ST interface.

The HT was a bit short for me, and I tried hard to get the frame to work for me without the setup looking truly goofy. I had it for a few years, and it was a really, really, really amazing ride. It was and remains the best-handling bike I've ridden.

The rear end was stiff enough that I consistently wondered what a Duende would be like, and if one comes available at my size (62-ish) at a decent price I'd seriously consider buying it.

The paint... aaahhh, the paint. It looked great when new. Slowly bubbled and chipped, under normal use, until it was near the point at which I thought it needed a repaint. By contrast the paint on my MY2000 Legend looks like new, and that bike has had a far harder life than the Marcelo ever did. Things may be better now, but at the time I thought the quality of the paint was inexcusable.

Ultimately I sold the Marcelo to a forum member after buying an essentially new Ottrott ST with F3 fork (for about 30 cents on the MSRP dollar). The Ottrott is a bit big for me, but I love it anyway.

Do I miss the Marcelo, as Nelson @ Gita suggested I would? At times, yes. Would I buy another? Not to replace either the Legend or the Ottrott, no. I really cannot justify a third high-end (and fifth overall) road bike, but if I could then I would consider buying one, yes. I would definitely consider a Duende.

Bottom line: Go for it, you will not be disappointed. Beyond the ride it has a cool factor that few bikes can match.

Tim

[Greyball]

Yes you should buy a Marcelo. I have ridden Pegorettis since 1996 and my Marcelo is my favorite one. Best all around steel frame I have ridden. Mine is custom made as it is 63 X 61. A tad longer chainstays and Campy rear dropouts. So this rear end is sort of an old Team HD rear. Not as beefy as a true Marcelo which is fine with me. The tube ODs are huge and round like a tube should be. I agree the frames are sometimes shipped while paint is still wet so they do need baking in the sun for a week or three to harden them. My 4 customs have always been one color simple paint jobs and two were soft upon arrival. The ride is unmatched IMHO. I have ridden MX Leaders, other Eddys, etc over the 40 years of doing this stuff. Dario uses no gimmicks or gizmos, they simply ride correctly. I also like knowing the guy that built my frame. And Dario is kooky cool guy. The only other steel frame I would ride now would be a Steelman. A couple of Dario Trade Show pics I shot over the years and one was used as a Promo card by Gita.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2usiyx4.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2vkg2o0.jpg

[Germany_chris]

Perhaps you could expand on this statement. I'm perplexed by unqualified statements like this, and the "demi-God" type comments that often appear in threads re Pegs. I could get, "I rode a [Marcelo] [MX Leader] and I thought such and such. But if you haven't ridden one .... How is "Peg love or Merckx love" any different from Serotta love, 'vette love, Rivendell love, Porsche love, Ducati love .... Most folks who are effusive about a brand are effusive for a reason and that is usually some first hand experience with the brand. If you haven't tried it then what does the "I don't get" statement add to the discussion? And we are on a high end bike forum - hardly unusual to have a lot of enthusiastic folks waxing on about things they are passionate about.

I love my Marcelo, just as i love my Motorola MX Leader, my Kirk and my Kirk. I love looking at them. I loved figuring out what parts to hang on them. Most of all I love riding them because they are all "laterally stiff and vertically compliant"; they "climb like billy goats and descend like they are on rails"; they "accelerate like a scalded cat", and most and most important of all, each of them planes. No, seriously, each of them puts a smile on my face particularly when I'm riding them, and for me that's the true measure.

I've ridden a lot of other high end bikes. They are no longer here. That's mostly been a decision driven by fit or function. But they were all close enough that I "got" that they were very good bikes. What's not to love about a well crafted bike?

It isn't, I don't get vette love either but do love porsche's

It isn't a discredit to either man just a simple statement.

[Jbartmc]

Three years ago I purchased a Responsorium. I loved that frame, it rode so well. Last year, I ordered a custom Responsorium with a view to selling my original one upon the arrival of the custom Responsorium. After the order, I crashed the original Responsorium and ruined the front triangle. After one email, Dario agreed to repair it. Then, I purchased a Marcelo off ebay, and was surprised at how well that frame performed while the Responsorium was sent to Italy for repairs and new paint. In July that repaired frame arrived with a Falz fork, and then a month later the special order arrived. I sold the Marcelo to a friend just because I needed the bike cash to pay for the new Responsorium with the Falz fork and D11 Chris King headset. Dario makes great frames. In my experience, his frames are worth every penny. I will have another Marcelo.

[Waldo]

No. I have had two and they were way too much frame for me.

[fuzzalow]

No. I have had two and they were way too much frame for me.

Might you be able to expand on this statement? Others have also said something to the same effect during the twists and turns of this thread and their add'l comments would be welcome also.

I have a selfish reason for asking. I have unnatural desires for Dario's Emma.;) I'd get one in a custom sized 52. One the face of it, whoo baby, that's a whole lotta frame for 165lbs and 0.5W/kg. coursing through that drivetrain. I'm not sure I know what overkill in a frame feels like so maybe some of you can clue me in.

For example, wouldn't the classic Merckx MXL be a too-much-frame frame? I haven't read where anyone rode one and said it was a lousy ride for being too much frame.

[MadRocketSci]

No. I have had two and they were way too much frame for me.

i'd be curious if dario uses size-specific tubing for his frames. I'm pretty sure the same outer diameters for each model span the size ranges, however, you could make a stiffer tube also by increasing the wall thickness. At 6'1" and 170, i think you'd be considered light for your size, i mean i'm about 4 inches shorter and only 5 lbs less, and i consider myself pretty average in build and I love the way my alu peg rides. Sooo...perhaps those frames of your were built around a 6'1" 190-ish fella?

[mvrider]

i'd be curious if dario uses size-specific tubing for his frames. I'm pretty sure the same outer diameters for each model span the size ranges, however, you could make a stiffer tube also by increasing the wall thickness. At 6'1" and 170, i think you'd be considered light for your size, i mean i'm about 4 inches shorter and only 5 lbs less, and i consider myself pretty average in build and I love the way my alu peg rides. Sooo...perhaps those frames of your were built around a 6'1" 190-ish fella?

When Dario measured me and my wife 1.5 months ago, he recorded our height, but not measure or ask about our weight.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes you should buy a Marcelo. I have ridden Pegorettis since 1996 and my Marcelo is my favorite one. Best all around steel frame I have ridden. Mine is custom made as it is 63 X 61. A tad longer chainstays and Campy rear dropouts. So this rear end is sort of an old Team HD rear. Not as beefy as a true Marcelo which is fine with me. The tube ODs are huge and round like a tube should be. I agree the frames are sometimes shipped while paint is still wet so they do need baking in the sun for a week or three to harden them. My 4 customs have always been one color simple paint jobs and two were soft upon arrival. The ride is unmatched IMHO. I have ridden MX Leaders, other Eddys, etc over the 40 years of doing this stuff. Dario uses no gimmicks or gizmos, they simply ride correctly. I also like knowing the guy that built my frame. And Dario is kooky cool guy. The only other steel frame I would ride now would be a Steelman. A couple of Dario Trade Show pics I shot over the years and one was used as a Promo card by Gita.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2usiyx4.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2vkg2o0.jpg

At interbike

[mandasol]

Might you be able to expand on this statement? Others have also said something to the same effect during the twists and turns of this thread and their add'l comments would be welcome also.

I have a selfish reason for asking. I have unnatural desires for Dario's Emma.;) I'd get one in a custom sized 52. One the face of it, whoo baby, that's a whole lotta frame for 165lbs and 0.5W/kg. coursing through that drivetrain. I'm not sure I know what overkill in a frame feels like so maybe some of you can clue me in.

For example, wouldn't the classic Merckx MXL be a too-much-frame frame? I haven't read where anyone rode one and said it was a lousy ride for being too much frame.



I have one of those Marcelo's that quickly passed through a few hands before it got to me, and I recall seeing previous owners post comments about the frame being a blast to ride but too harsh of a ride - which seems at odds with some reviews calling it smooth and caused me some confusion and trepidation before deciding to buy it and build it up.

I usually feel that it takes hundreds of miles over different riding conditions to get a good feel for a bike, but with a Marcelo it seems to stamp it's impression on you from the very first pedal stroke - it's that impressive (in a good way and possibly bad). It's very stiff, very responsive, amplifies all your inputs and amplifies the feedback from the road. Which is why I believe a lot of reviews compare it to more of an Aluminum feel than steel, but which is a dated comparison because I've ridden some contemporary aluminum that rides smoother than a lot of steel frames I've ridden (Cannondale Synapse and Giant Defy for example).

I was thoroughly impressed with the performance of the Marcelo, but I almost put it up for sale because of the same issues about it riding harsh. I sold a Serotta CSI just before getting the Marcelo and the characteristics are very different, and I actually missed the smoothness of the CSI so I bought another one and was favoring the newer to me CSI for a while.

I didn't give up on the Marcelo and tried things like using a carbon seatpost, carbon or Ti railed saddles with more padding, and lowering tire pressure and it helped considerably. Then I had a superlight alloy clincher wheelset built up to try, and I guess being a lighter wheelset it had considerably more flex than the 32 spoke Mavic CXP33's I was running and it did change the riding characteristics. The Marcelo was much smoother now, had fast spin up, but it lost something. It didn't have that immediate power punch with every pedal stroke that I recall from the very first time I threw a leg over it. With the lighter/flexi-er wheelset I tended to stay seated more and with the stiffer wheels it's more fun and more rewarding to stand and pound.

I had a few other wheelsets built up and tried them out. I went with a 24/28 spoke wheel vs. the 20/24 set I had to try to find a compromise between it and the 32 spoke set. Rode with that for year on the Marcelo, but was still alternating bikes and found myself still contemplating selling it. Last year I had a set of 32 spoke wide rims (23mm) built up and this wheelset seems to bring out the best of the bike - comfort and power (lots of power!).

Also, a few months ago I bent the dropouts of the original Ouzo Pro fork so I searched for a replacement and found a take-off 3T Funda in white from a Cervelo that matched the base white of my frame so I tried it out. It's an integrated fork but still doesn't look too bad aesthetically, however I feel the 3T fork is better than the Ouzo Pro - it's smoother while being just as stiff if not stiffer. I'm not sure about the rake since it's a used fork, but something has changed regarding handling as well. Before while the bike carved corners like nobody's business it was fairly twitchy riding no handed, but now I can practically do an entire ride no handed without any hint of shakiness.

From my experience I wonder if a lot of mixed reviews are due to the theory of heavier duty tubing for different riders or more an issue of set up (wheels, tires, tire pressure, fork, points of contact components, etc.). I went through a few changes and saw how the character of the bike changed dramatically, so I may have one of those overbuilt frames but seems with the right setup it can still be a good thing without detriment. Maybe some Marcelo's are smoother naturally, or maybe some people had a good complimenting setup from the get go, can't really say.

I'm quite happy with my Marcelo now and pretty certain it's going to be a keeper - if it weren't for the paint. Not the looks but the durability. It's chips too easily. I'm going to have to have it repainted if I want this frame to last, which is a hard thing to do considering how much I admire his artistry.

[tttsmm]

fwiw, i'm about 6' and 200lbs on a good day, my marcelo does not feel harsh at all. then again, i also don't feel that my Love #3 is all that harsh actually :D

[KeithNYC]

very interesting- let's see a pic!

I have one of those Marcelo's that quickly passed through a few hands before it got to me, and I recall seeing previous owners post comments about the frame being a blast to ride but too harsh of a ride - which seems at odds with some reviews calling it smooth and caused me some confusion and trepidation before deciding to buy it and build it up.

I usually feel that it takes hundreds of miles over different riding conditions to get a good feel for a bike, but with a Marcelo it seems to stamp it's impression on you from the very first pedal stroke - it's that impressive (in a good way and possibly bad). It's very stiff, very responsive, amplifies all your inputs and amplifies the feedback from the road. Which is why I believe a lot of reviews compare it to more of an Aluminum feel than steel, but which is a dated comparison because I've ridden some contemporary aluminum that rides smoother than a lot of steel frames I've ridden (Cannondale Synapse and Giant Defy for example).

I was thoroughly impressed with the performance of the Marcelo, but I almost put it up for sale because of the same issues about it riding harsh. I sold a Serotta CSI just before getting the Marcelo and the characteristics are very different, and I actually missed the smoothness of the CSI so I bought another one and was favoring the newer to me CSI for a while.

I didn't give up on the Marcelo and tried things like using a carbon seatpost, carbon or Ti railed saddles with more padding, and lowering tire pressure and it helped considerably. Then I had a superlight alloy clincher wheelset built up to try, and I guess being a lighter wheelset it had considerably more flex than the 32 spoke Mavic CXP33's I was running and it did change the riding characteristics. The Marcelo was much smoother now, had fast spin up, but it lost something. It didn't have that immediate power punch with every pedal stroke that I recall from the very first time I threw a leg over it. With the lighter/flexi-er wheelset I tended to stay seated more and with the stiffer wheels it's more fun and more rewarding to stand and pound.

I had a few other wheelsets built up and tried them out. I went with a 24/28 spoke wheel vs. the 20/24 set I had to try to find a compromise between it and the 32 spoke set. Rode with that for year on the Marcelo, but was still alternating bikes and found myself still contemplating selling it. Last year I had a set of 32 spoke wide rims (23mm) built up and this wheelset seems to bring out the best of the bike - comfort and power (lots of power!).

Also, a few months ago I bent the dropouts of the original Ouzo Pro fork so I searched for a replacement and found a take-off 3T Funda in white from a Cervelo that matched the base white of my frame so I tried it out. It's an integrated fork but still doesn't look too bad aesthetically, however I feel the 3T fork is better than the Ouzo Pro - it's smoother while being just as stiff if not stiffer. I'm not sure about the rake since it's a used fork, but something has changed regarding handling as well. Before while the bike carved corners like nobody's business it was fairly twitchy riding no handed, but now I can practically do an entire ride no handed without any hint of shakiness.

From my experience I wonder if a lot of mixed reviews are due to the theory of heavier duty tubing for different riders or more an issue of set up (wheels, tires, tire pressure, fork, points of contact components, etc.). I went through a few changes and saw how the character of the bike changed dramatically, so I may have one of those overbuilt frames but seems with the right setup it can still be a good thing without detriment. Maybe some Marcelo's are smoother naturally, or maybe some people had a good complimenting setup from the get go, can't really say.

I'm quite happy with my Marcelo now and pretty certain it's going to be a keeper - if it weren't for the paint. Not the looks but the durability. It's chips too easily. I'm going to have to have it repainted if I want this frame to last, which is a hard thing to do considering how much I admire his artistry.

[fuzzalow]

Grazie on the replies on as the whether a Marcelo is too much frame or not.

Interesting also the experience of having a fitting done by Dario to mvrider did not need to ask for body weight - I'd guess that eyeballed for not being overly weighty was good enough. FWIW I think that a custom builder getting specific on rider weight to the pound/kilo (rather than to a range) is playing into a clients expectation and imagery of bespokeness in getting a custom bike. Not useful but it makes 'em feel good. The first time I read through the 1-to-10 questionnaire for a custom Seven, I LOL. Clever & brilliant.

It seems fair to allow that how a frame feels and its handling characteristics is the purview of personal preference and setup. I can't help but think there is an opportunity to develop and adopt a consistent vocabulary in describing bike characteristics, much as was done by TWS for oenophiles. Would Bicycling Magazine be up to the task?

As it stands now, describing how a frame is too much frame is akin to how Justice Potter Stewart defined pornography: I can't tell you what it is but I know it when I see (feel) it. In the bike world, feeling is believing.

[Waldo]

Might you be able to expand on this statement? Others have also said something to the same effect during the twists and turns of this thread and their add'l comments would be welcome also.

I have a selfish reason for asking. I have unnatural desires for Dario's Emma.;) I'd get one in a custom sized 52. One the face of it, whoo baby, that's a whole lotta frame for 165lbs and 0.5W/kg. coursing through that drivetrain. I'm not sure I know what overkill in a frame feels like so maybe some of you can clue me in.

For example, wouldn't the classic Merckx MXL be a too-much-frame frame? I haven't read where anyone rode one and said it was a lousy ride for being too much frame.

Some people say you must give a frame a chance and with my first one I really did. Before I tell you about that, I need to back up and explain about the prism through which I was viewing my first Marcelo, a 2005 frame. In ~2003, I bought a late '90s ugly orange Duende with a steel fork from GVH Bikes. It was an amazing riding frame, but the paint job and aero-shaped down tube were aesthetically offensive, so I sold it. A couple of years later, having read the praises of Marcelos in periodicals and on the web, I decided to spring for one. It was an odd time in Dario's production cycle and no retailer had a frame in my size (60), save for IBC in Boston (I am in CA). I waited excitedly for the frame, unpacked it and a few minutes later realized they sent me a 57. "Jerk" apologized profusely and offered to make it right, but making it right took about two months (there was a reason no one had a 60 -- there wasn't one in the entire country!), as Dario had to build the damn thing (pre-cancer and non-existent wait list).

All this drama raised expectations and anxiety. This frame better perform. The frame arrived, I built it up and rode it a lot. Yes, I put many hundreds of miles into this frame before forming an opinion, including riding a double century on it. It was fine, not great, about a B (yes, I am damning it with faint praise). It handled about as well as the orange Duende (back then Dario specced Marcelos in my size with Ouzo Pro forks with 43mm rake), but was too stiff for me. I like to feel springiness of a steel frame. Marcelo, with its oversize tubes, did not spring for me. If stiffness is what you are after or if you are more powerful than I (I am 6'1" and 170 and don't have the legs to make Marcelo's enormous chainstays spring) this may be the frame for you.

Several years later, I picked up another one. Everyone sang praises and I wondered whether I missed something/made a mistake in selling mine? I bought the second one used. It was in great shape, but I liked it even less -- still hella stiff. By then Dario started speccing forks with 45mm rake in my size and there went what I considered magical Peg handling. A bigger and stronger friend who tested it agreed: "it rides like a brick," he said. So, still too stiff and doesn't descend as well as the earlier iteration. Good bye, Marcelo no. 2.

Others totally dig Marcelos, but it wasn't for me. I ride standard diameter steel frames and mildly oversized ti bikes and they work great for me. Favorite frame du jour is Colnago Monotitan with a gilco-shaped top tube.

I wouldn't mind having that orange Duende back, though.

[MadRocketSci]

Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans.

But they got, Diff'rent Strokes.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.

Everybody's got a special kind of story
Everybody finds a way to shine,
It don't matter that you got not alot
So what,
They'll have theirs, and you'll have yours, and I'll have mine.
And together we'll be fine....

Because it takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.
Yes it does.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.

mmmmmmmmm!

[beeatnik]

Several years later, I picked up another one. Everyone sang praises and I wondered whether I missed something/made a mistake in selling mine? I bought the second one used. It was in great shape, but I liked it even less -- still hella stiff.

Hella stiff...hahaha.

I wonder if the Bay Area has the most Pegs per capita in the US. I'm sure Above Category is right up there with the Jerk's shop.

[Waldo]

None of my Pegs came from Above Category, and I hadn't written about another Duende (not nearly as good as the first orange one) and a Luigino I had... Right now I am Peg-less and I'm fine with that.

[sheh8me2]

Ditto on the Duende

[pdmtong]

Hella stiff...hahaha.

I wonder if the Bay Area has the most Pegs per capita in the US. I'm sure Above Category is right up there with the Jerk's shop.

maybe...but I see a lot of specialized and trek just like everywhere else.

all this handmade goodness... here's what I have seen in the wild

- 1 ellis
- 1 ira ryan
- 1 kirk
- 2 sachs
- <6 IF
- 1 vanilla
- 1 speedvvagen
- 1 crumpton
- <6 pegs

they are out there...I am just not seeing them

[sw3759]

i was recently in contact with Nelson at Gita he said they will only be importing the black clear coated carbon version and price should be about the "same ballpark as the Enve fork" and they should have them in stock by the end of the year.

[beeatnik]

maybe...but I see a lot of specialized and trek just like everywhere else.

all this handmade goodness... here's what I have seen in the wild

- 1 ellis
- 1 ira ryan
- 1 kirk
- 2 sachs
- <6 IF
- 1 vanilla
- 1 speedvvagen
- 1 crumpton
- <6 pegs

they are out there...I am just not seeing them

That's a lot of Pegs. I've only seen 3 on the mean streetz of LA.

Tarmacs are by far the most ubiquitous mass produced bike here. Still see a good number of Serottas, the occasional Seven, a lot of IFs, a sprinkling of Calfees and 6 Mootseseses. In the Santa Monicas, I've seen 2 Speedvagens..

[oldpotatoe]

That's a lot of Pegs. I've only seen 3 on the mean streetz of LA.

Tarmacs are by far the most ubiquitous mass produced bike here. Still see a good number of Serottas, the occasional Seven, a lot of IFs, a sprinkling of Calfees and 6 Mootseseses. In the Santa Monicas, I've seen 2 Speedvagens..

Mootsi, Mootses, what is the plural of Moots? Mootsaliciouses?

[Marz]

Started riding the Marcelo seriously after a layoff commuting and occasionally riding my other bikes.

The Pegoretti Marcelo is (IMHO) the best bike in the world. Smoooooooth.

I really don't need my other bikes but I do need the Peg.

If you could only own one racing bike, this is the one.

[Vitix2]

I realize I’m really late to this thread, but I’m leaving my comments for prosperity.

As Poppa Wheelie indicated in their post, the Marcelo is a lot of bike, and I range between 245 and 260 LBS.

I got my Marcelo in 2009 and rode it exclusively for about three seasons. I loved the way it felt under me. It is a true masterpiece (and I’m not talking about the paint job). It accelerates better than just about anything I’ve ever ridden other than my Merckx 525, and handles like a Surgeon’s scalpel - extremely precise. It is also a decent climber despite the inherent weight of steel. Put another way, it flows with you during a ride.

That said, it is pure race bike. I feel the road under me, and it is stiff. So stiff that by the third season riding it anything more than 2 hours became undesirable. The stiffness of the seat stays and chain stays became too much and led to back pain. I initially had a zero setback Thompson seatpost, but was compelled to transition to a FSA carbon post with setback. That helped a little…it reduced the road buzz (which felt great early on but became an issue) and dampened things up. However, just one look at the seat and chain stays tells you all you need to no…there is no give in the rear triangle and everything the rear wheel encounters is transmitted pretty directly to the rider.

I still have my Marcelo and have turned it into my offseason ride…October to February. However, it still does a job on my back and would be the last bike in my stable that I turn to for anything other than a short and fast training ride. I am now in my mid 50s and view the Marcelo as a bike for younger riders. I would have loved the Marcelo when I was racing, and still appreciate its’ traits, but I can no longer tolerate the direct nature of the ride for anything serious.

Mine is a 61cm frame with Campy Record. I have tried various wheels to include Fulcrum 3’s, Shamal Ultras, Neutron Ultras, 36 hole Open Pros, and it is currently wearing a pair of Eurus wheels. I have not tried any of my carbon wheels on it (I hate changing out brake blocks) but can’t imagine they would make enough of a difference to eradicate the harshness of the ride.

When I got my Marcelo I was still a little bit of a speed demon. Now I wish I had a Duende. I love my Marcelo and have so far resisted the urge to part with it, but I’m on a pitch count with it…two to three innings is all that I can realistically give to my Marcelo at this point.

For the record, I tend to keep my old bikes instead of selling them, and I don’t have similar issues with anything else in my stable: Damocles, Fenix SL; and Merckx SXM, Sallanches 64, & 525. I also owned a steel Pinarello back in the day which was a little soft but still became tough on my body during long rides. As such, I have considered that I may just adapt better to the fit of Belgian geometry than Italian geometry…if there is such a thing in reality.

[Clean39T]

I realize I’m really late to this thread, but I’m leaving my comments for prosperity.

As Poppa Wheelie indicated in their post, the Marcelo is a lot of bike, and I range between 245 and 260 LBS.

I got my Marcelo in 2009 and rode it exclusively for about three seasons. I loved the way it felt under me. It is a true masterpiece (and I’m not talking about the paint job). It accelerates better than just about anything I’ve ever ridden other than my Merckx 525, and handles like a Surgeon’s scalpel - extremely precise. It is also a decent climber despite the inherent weight of steel. Put another way, it flows with you during a ride.

That said, it is pure race bike. I feel the road under me, and it is stiff. So stiff that by the third season riding it anything more than 2 hours became undesirable. The stiffness of the seat stays and chain stays became too much and led to back pain. I initially had a zero setback Thompson seatpost, but was compelled to transition to a FSA carbon post with setback. That helped a little…it reduced the road buzz (which felt great early on but became an issue) and dampened things up. However, just one look at the seat and chain stays tells you all you need to no…there is no give in the rear triangle and everything the rear wheel encounters is transmitted pretty directly to the rider.

I still have my Marcelo and have turned it into my offseason ride…October to February. However, it still does a job on my back and would be the last bike in my stable that I turn to for anything other than a short and fast training ride. I am now in my mid 50s and view the Marcelo as a bike for younger riders. I would have loved the Marcelo when I was racing, and still appreciate its’ traits, but I can no longer tolerate the direct nature of the ride for anything serious.

Mine is a 61cm frame with Campy Record. I have tried various wheels to include Fulcrum 3’s, Shamal Ultras, Neutron Ultras, 36 hole Open Pros, and it is currently wearing a pair of Eurus wheels. I have not tried any of my carbon wheels on it (I hate changing out brake blocks) but can’t imagine they would make enough of a difference to eradicate the harshness of the ride.

When I got my Marcelo I was still a little bit of a speed demon. Now I wish I had a Duende. I love my Marcelo and have so far resisted the urge to part with it, but I’m on a pitch count with it…two to three innings is all that I can realistically give to my Marcelo at this point.

For the record, I tend to keep my old bikes instead of selling them, and I don’t have similar issues with anything else in my stable: Damocles, Fenix SL; and Merckx SXM, Sallanches 64, & 525. I also owned a steel Pinarello back in the day which was a little soft but still became tough on my body during long rides. As such, I have considered that I may just adapt better to the fit of Belgian geometry than Italian geometry…if there is such a thing in reality.

I know where there is a NOS 61 Duende for sale (not mine) and I would be happy to relieve you of the burden of your 61 Marcelo…. :banana:

[lavi]

Sweet dig on an old thread. I’m gonna read through it.

[uber]

I’m a long time Marcelo fan too. I have had Lightweight’s and Campy Bora Ultra’s in 50mm (both tubular). I think the Bora’s ride much smoother and are more comfortable giving up just a bit of acceleration. 28mm tires at 20-30 psi less than 23’s and 25’s made a big difference for me as well. The rear triangle does not move under me!!

[NoMoreParagon]

I might state the obvious, but running tubeless at 70-75psi might be what you need to make the Marcelo an incredibly comfy ride.

I found the MxxxxxO to be pretty comfy yet very well planted. It requires a more convoluted fine tuning between front and back load, meaning I had to increase saddle to hood drop a bit more to transfer weight away from my back into core/forearm.

To put in perspective, I owned a Stelbel Rodano in steel before but compared to the MxxxxxO, the Stelbel was way too soft and giving for my tastes. At every sprint I felt the frame flexing around the bb area.

[wallymann]

...it would have to be custom...his stock STA is too slack for me and the extended HT makes my eyes hurt.

[s4life]

If I didn't have a Marcelo, I would try to buy either the same one or a Respo, but yeah these bikes are superb. Still recall the grin I had the first time I rode my Marcelo.

[martl]

...it would have to be custom...his stock STA is too slack for me and the extended HT makes my eyes hurt.

If i bought a painting from Leonardo, i wouldn't tell him what brand colors to use. When i bought my Peg, i took Darios advice ;). If you yourself know what you want and need, there are plenty of very skilled frame builders out there for that. If i go to Dario, i go there because i want his input - not mine. but thats just me.

I'm happy with mine. I have owned and ridden very good bikes before, and i can't say the Peg is special or magic in any way or does anything way better that the other bikes i rode. It doesnt do anything in particular, it lets me enjoy the ride without spending a thought about the bike - and that is the biggest compliment to the guy who made it in my book :).

At least that elitist image is fading - nowadays, a Peg with Record and Lightweights is for poor buggers who cant afford a Chinarello With Ultegra and 5% more Aero :D

[Kirk007]

Interesting to see this thread back and see how different riders have different experiences. At age 60 I rode a 62 cm Marcelo through Provence, up and down the Alps, Dolomites, Ventoux - 60-100 miles a day for the better part of a month. Couldn't have asked for more from a bike. It did feel stiffer than some bikes that I like but not to a degree that bugged me, unlike some renowned carbon bikes that I've had.

[fignon's barber]

When i bought my Peg, i took Darios advice ;). If you yourself know what you want and need, there are plenty of very skilled frame builders out there for that. If i go to Dario, i go there because i want his input - not mine. but thats just me.


Is it even possible to deal directly with the Pegoretti Bottega now? About a month ago, with all this Peg talk around here, I was curious. I sent a personal inquiery about a Responsorium in ciavete directly to the Bottega.. No response, until about 3 weeks later, I get an email from the sales manager at Gita. He said they have a few in stock and that since I don't have an authorized dealer near me he would pick one of his retailers to run it through (to get their cut). And the benefit to me, the customer, of the two extra unnecessary layers of distribution was a delivered price of almost $8k for the frameset. Yeah, right.