Ti from China

[vav]

regarding Keith A's thread about chinese manufacturers offering Cervelos, Specialized, etc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FALCO-Eleonora-Titanium-Road-Bike-Frame-55cm-FREE-SHIPPING-w-Fork-/110957452715?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item19d5945dab

Bike looks good IMO

[eddief]

http://www.monster-bicycles.com/

I have traded a few emails and he seems responsive and legit. A straight gague or double butted custom geo at a resonable price. And probably Chinese couplers thrown in for a couple hundred extra???? Call it a Chimoots.

[4Rings6Stars]

regarding Keith A's thread about chinese manufacturers offering Cervelos, Specialized, etc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FALCO-Eleonora-Titanium-Road-Bike-Frame-55cm-FREE-SHIPPING-w-Fork-/110957452715?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item19d5945dab

Bike looks good IMO

Notice they don't show any closeups of welds/transition areas?

In the one far away picture where you can see the seatstay attachment, it looks pretty terrible. I'll pay an extra $200-300 for a used Serotta or Moots...

[Fixed]

I bet it is a nice frame ,Chinese can weld fine ,I mean they will be on the moon and mars soon
Cheers :) IMHO
The monster i don't know ,I am no fan of the dropped 2nd top tube though seems like it would hamper water bottle use

[54ny77]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/34/2008/09/falco.jpg

[reggiebaseball]

Looks great!

Unfortunately, when wet, it off-gasses a carcinogen like Chinese drywall.

There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
or
You get what you pay for

[Jack Brunk]

Stuff is well, crap. Go with a quality builder and material.

[jpw]

I'll take the wheels.

[djg]

I bet it is a nice frame ,Chinese can weld fine ,I mean they will be on the moon and mars soon
Cheers :) IMHO
The monster i don't know ,I am no fan of the dropped 2nd top tube though seems like it would hamper water bottle use

Fixed, they -- as a nation -- can build all sorts of things. And US manufacturing sources lots of components over there, obviously. Other questions aside, I think that what worries folks is that manufacturing standards in China can be all over the map. So if a guy you don't know sources frames (or planes, or pharmaceuticals) somewhere -- you know not where -- on the mainland, and subjects them to who knows what for quality control, then you might get something excellent, or fine, or fundamentally faulty. That doesn't mean it isn't worth it -- on somebody's calculus -- to take a chance; at the same time, folks are not crazy to wonder what they are getting.

[Mike V]

The titanium bike is on page 11. They have weld pictures.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=94417&hilit=falco+bikes

[54ny77]

well, the much-revered caad frames are cheap and made in china too, "designed" as it were by an american company. oh wait, so are specialized. and trek. and...

what's the real difference here? maybe the ti material itself is of questionable quality. who knows.

someone looking for an $800 ti frame obviously isn't giving serious consideration to a $5k leh-gend purchase.

[oldpotatoe]

regarding Keith A's thread about chinese manufacturers offering Cervelos, Specialized, etc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FALCO-Eleonora-Titanium-Road-Bike-Frame-55cm-FREE-SHIPPING-w-Fork-/110957452715?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item19d5945dab

Bike looks good IMO

I'd say deal with Habanero, Mark Hickey, and have some recourse if something goes wrong..cheaper also.

[AngryScientist]

my question with these bikes would not be with the material itself or the welding. I'm sure the tubes are just fine, and welding certainly doesnt have to look pretty to be functional.

what would concern me is this:

1) where do they get the geometry? any real engineering/thought put into it or is it just a copy of something else?

2) what is the quality control over tolerances - in other words, how do i know i will be getting a frame in proper alignment, with the correct width BB shell, straight headtube, etc??

3) china is pretty far from here. if the company very interested in packing the frame very well, it could easily get damaged/misaligned on the way over. what to do then?

[ultraman6970]

Remember the carbon ones, their bikes looks solid. wonder if the carbon frames are own design or are bought to somebody else and re badged. Dont see why the Ti wont work, the thing looks solid. I would prime it and paint to hide those ugly ass welds hehe :) Seen worse anyways, the welds arent bad IMO.

[phcollard]

Remember the carbon ones, their bikes looks solid. wonder if the carbon frames are own design or are bought to somebody else and re badged. Dont see why the Ti wont work, the thing looks solid. I would prime it and paint to hide those ugly ass welds hehe :) Seen worse anyways, the welds arent bad IMO.

Same here those welds look OK. There are a lot of companies selling Ti bikes made in Taiwan anyways (Hab, Enigma, Van Nicholas, Sabbath, etc) so why not go straight to the source? The only thing is if you need to ship the frame back for any reason. That's gonna be expensive.

[martinrjensen]

Yea,the weld looks bad.http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/download/file.php?id=49457&mode=view
Notice they don't show any closeups of welds/transition areas?

In the one far away picture where you can see the seatstay attachment, it looks pretty terrible. I'll pay an extra $200-300 for a used Serotta or Moots...

[tuscanyswe]

I may have become a ti-snobb over the years but i would never say that a frame is **** because its made in China. Have any of you who say so even ridden or seen one?

I think the welds looks good tbh. The geometry and tubing dont appeal to me but im sure it will make a nice bike for someone whos openminded.

Yes it could be ****, but it could also be the bomb..

[phcollard]

Yea,the weld looks bad.

:confused: Of course they're not Moots-like (I have yet to see better welds than Moots) but these ones look good imho. As good as the Lynskey that I had, and better than my early Serotta Colorado Ti.

That being said, for the price, I'll chose my secondhand CTi any day thank you :)

[54ny77]

all other things aside, can ya think of a reason for cable going thru seat tube?

[binouye]

I actually ordered a Ti frame from China -- well, from J&L which is a guy in Taiwan selling components ("Hylix", J&L, etc) and frames on ebay. But the Ti frames are made in China and he just acts as a middle man. I wanted a monster-cross / drop-bar 29er disc frame and there aren't that many options out there. I sent a geometry chart and 10 weeks later got a frame. That first frame was built *wrong*, somebody had put 26er seatstays on it (but it had 29er chainstays) and so 29er tires would not fit. I spent $75 to send the frame back to China (USPS, insured), and 4 weeks later got frame #2. It's shown in this thread:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=1213375#post1213375

Final cost in the end, $900. Welds are not as nice as on my Carl Strong road frame, but look fine. The bike is a lot of fun on both singletrack and roads (planning a 65 miles dirt road ride next weekend). Not a lifetime keeper bike, but I get to try out some ideas on it before committing to a more expensive custom frame from a good US builder.

FWIW, I was told that the place making this frame in China is the same factory that makes Habaneros and other cheap Ti frames. I did have to prep the headtube upon arrival, but the overall build quality, shipping, etc, was..... fine. Not great, but fine, and its what I expected for the price.

[Kirk007]

Speaking of Chinese ti - anyone have personal experience with Everti? Been around for awhile, get good reviews in some bike mags and personal testimonials on website - anyone else?

[boxerboxer]

Stuff is well, crap. Go with a quality builder and material.

Is this based on any specific knowledge of these frames or are you just sounding off?

[Jack Brunk]

Is this based on any specific knowledge of these frames or are you just sounding off?

Yes have seen first hand knowledge and it's my opinon. How about you? Hopefully you can add some first hand knowledge as well. Just to add I've seen the same in all materials from Asia as well. Again you get what you pay for.

[martinrjensen]

Actually I have to agree that that is apparently really weird cable routing.I really don't understand it. I don't even see how it can even work. Wish there were more specific pictures.
EDIT: after looking at this and thinking about it, there must be a ramp or tube in there, similar to what the cable would be going across if it went underneath the bottom bracket. That's the only way I can see this working, and if that's the case, it's really no worse than the path following the underside of the bottom bracket. all other things aside, can ya think of a reason for cable going thru seat tube?

[4Rings6Stars]

Yea,the weld looks bad.
[IMG]http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/download/file.php?id=49457&mode=view/IMG]

Those don't look that terrible actually. My comment was that there were no closeups of those areas in the ebay ad. There are not any. Maybe they should add some.

Look at the picture of the seatstay attachment to the seat cluster in the ebay ad. It looks chunky and uneven.

It might be a fine bike, but for that much money I would rather pick up something used that I know is a very fine bike and will have resale value if I decide I don't like it. Maybe these guys are legit and their bikes are well designed and built to high standards. Maybe they are not. Put $1299 down on red, maybe you'll double your money. Maybe not.

[RFC]

I may have become a ti-snobb over the years but i would never say that a frame is **** because its made in China. Have any of you who say so even ridden or seen one?

I think the welds looks good tbh. The geometry and tubing dont appeal to me but im sure it will make a nice bike for someone whos openminded.

Yes it could be ****, but it could also be the bomb..

+1. I have owned and ridden a number of Ti frames from different manufacturers. The reality is that either they can weld Ti or they can't. There isn't any real Serotta magic involved. Quality here looks good.

[djg]

Yea,the weld looks bad. . . . [/IMG]

What would it look like if it were bad? Personally, I cannot tell. Neat may be a decent proxy for clean, but I just don't know. With an unknown source, and unknown quality control, I'd worry about contaminated welds more than I'd worry about a stack-of-nickels aesthetic. I'm not saying that this is bad, or that it's anything other than a scrupulously welded frame that will outlast the owner. Welding is not rocket science (and even if it were, we'd know that China is capable of producing rocket scientists and rockets). Frankly, it makes sense to me that somebody might want to take a chance on a decent looking Ti frame at a certain price. Somebody took a chance on an early Moots too (and early Legends, Merlins, etc.) We're always dealing with limited evidence and some measure of uncertainty.

I'm just saying that the other point of view makes sense to me -- with a new designer/vendor, and a 1300 dollar price tag, I'd prefer dealing with a better known quantity, which means domestic steel new or, as others have pointed out, something excellent in Ti purchased on the used market (where even excellent bikes tend to be hugely depreciated) or, for new Ti on a budget, somebody who's been doing this for a while and has some sort of developed reputation.

[froze]

Personally I wouldn't deal with any Chinese manufacture directly. One poster got lucky, they built the frame wrong he sent it back and he got another one which is great, but for every one person that gets "lucky" another 10 get screwed. I've read several forums where members got a bike through a Chinese manufacture and the frame was useless, mostly due to the head tube being slightly oblong and the headset races wouldn't fit, and the manufacture refused to replace the frame saying it was fine when it left the factory therefore the customer destroyed it. And since you're dealing directly with China you have no recourse.

If you want a TI frame and fork for a low cost try Bikes Direct, they will sell you a Motobecane TI frame with a CF fork for $999, and not only do you have an American wholesaler to deal with should there be a problem, but the frame is made in Taiwan which embraces the western business and manufacturing ethics which means you will get a better built bike built by someone who actually cares. By the way, those Motobecane TI bikes have gotten rave reviews. See: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_teamti_10_frameset.htm

Just to be fair with you all, I'm a bit bias, I go out of my way to avoid products made in China IF at all possible, I don't care if an American company is behind it, I know that's not always possible, but I always try to find an alternative product made anywhere else but there.

[eddief]

If you don't know your welder (robot?), then you'd best know your middleman. Why are you working so hard to avoid buying their stuff?

"In the 1980s and early 1990s, Taiwan evolved into a multi-party democracy with universal suffrage. Building on the infrastructure and education improvements initiated during the Japanese era, Taiwan has experienced rapid economic growth and industrialization during the latter half of the 20th century and is now an advanced industrial economy. It is one of the Four Asian Tigers and a member of the WTO and APEC. The 19th-largest economy in the world,[24][25] its advanced technology industry plays a key role in the global economy. Taiwan is ranked highly in terms of freedom of the press, health care,[26] public education, economic freedom, and human development.[e][19][27]"


Personally I wouldn't deal with any Chinese manufacture directly. One poster got lucky, they built the frame wrong he sent it back and he got another one which is great, but for every one person that gets "lucky" another 10 get screwed. I've read several forums where members got a bike through a Chinese manufacture and the frame was useless, mostly due to the head tube being slightly oblong and the headset races wouldn't fit, and the manufacture refused to replace the frame saying it was fine when it left the factory therefore the customer destroyed it. And since you're dealing directly with China you have no recourse.

If you want a TI frame and fork for a low cost try Bikes Direct, they will sell you a Motobecane TI frame with a CF fork for $999, and not only do you have an American wholesaler to deal with should there be a problem, but the frame is made in Taiwan which embraces the western business and manufacturing ethics which means you will get a better built bike built by someone who actually cares. By the way, those Motobecane TI bikes have gotten rave reviews. See: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/lechamp_teamti_10_frameset.htm

Just to be fair with you all, I'm a bit bias, I go out of my way to avoid products made in China IF at all possible, I don't care if an American company is behind it, I know that's not always possible, but I always try to find an alternative product made anywhere else but there.

[froze]

If you can't trust your robot, then you'd best know your middleman.

"In the 1980s and early 1990s, Taiwan evolved into a multi-party democracy with universal suffrage. Building on the infrastructure and education improvements initiated during the Japanese era, Taiwan has experienced rapid economic growth and industrialization during the latter half of the 20th century and is now an advanced industrial economy. It is one of the Four Asian Tigers and a member of the WTO and APEC. The 19th-largest economy in the world,[24][25] its advanced technology industry plays a key role in the global economy. Taiwan is ranked highly in terms of freedom of the press, health care,[26] public education, economic freedom, and human development.[e][19][27]"

Exactly. I went crazy recently when I had to replace my above range microwave oven. I looked at a good 2 dozen ovens and finally found one made in Malaysia, all the others were China made. Of course those China made ovens were backed by warranties from very popular brands but again I will always try to avoid the made in China stuff.

Some products are getting wise to consumers trying to avoid China made stuff, so they won't tell you where it's made, but instead say crap like, designed in the USA! Sure designed here and made in China...no difference. I avoid those too...again if possible.

There is also a lot of off brand food stuff that Walmart sells that comes from China...I remember something about dog food some years back coming from China through Walmart. If the food container doesn't say what country it came from I don't buy it. Sure you haven't heard of any human food comsumption problems, at least none that I'm aware of from Chinese food, but the potential is always there.

[phcollard]

I'd echo what some others said. If you really want a budget Ti frame you'd better get one that's imported in North America. At least it's easy to ship back and to get any warranty stuff done. You know the brands. There's a new one in Canada also http://www.22bicycles.com/

[mhespenheide]

I ride a Ti LeMond on the road, and a Ti Kona on the trails. Don't have a Ti 'cross bike/gravel bike, but I'm (casually) looking at it.

I'd look at Habanero Cycles (http://www.habcycles.com/) for inexpensive Ti with an American importer. Lots of stock options, and custom for a few hundred more.

But for inexpensive custom Ti, the best option I know of is Carver Bikes (http://www.carverbikes.com/frames/custom-ti) out of Maine, who appear to do their work on-site.

No relation to either, just looking myself...

[FlashUNC]

If it looks decent and rides well, I don't see the problem.

There's good manufacturers everywhere and there are terrible manufacturers everywhere, regardless of whose flag they fly under.

I've got a really nicely made custom steel frame that came from just outside Hong Kong, and I've got stock stuff that was put together right here in the U.S.

Same rules apply anywhere: Do your research, and caveat emptor.

[reggiebaseball]

If it looks decent and rides well, I don't see the problem.

There's good manufacturers everywhere and there are terrible manufacturers everywhere, regardless of whose flag they fly under.

I've got a really nicely made custom steel frame that came from just outside Hong Kong, and I've got stock stuff that was put together right here in the U.S.

Same rules apply anywhere: Do your research, and caveat emptor.

I am not sure why anyone needs this explained.

Either of two things:
1. maybe you are too young to understand this yet (you spent your whole developmental life in a disposable world)
2. maybe you are from an obscure country that is not over-run with Chinese crap.


Cheap stuff made with slave labor in countries with no environmental or human rights standards, end up being shi**y.

Whether it is a the 2 cent light bulb that only turns on once, the drywall that off gases and gives you cancer, the children's toys with lead paint. The reverse-engineered bicycle whose geometry is off and develops a dangerous speed wobble over 35mph, the bungee cord that frays and pops when it gets wet.

Every single "cheaper" item I have bought form China, thousands over dozens of years - all have ended up being sh**ty and costing me more to replace.

I really am not sure what you need to hear or be told.

Products made by negligent "engineers" in countries that dont care about their own citizens and certainly don't care about you or the welfare of your children or parents.

Once upon a time, here in America, things were made by real people, who were happily making a nice wage, observing environmental regulations, and may have thought "what if my daughter were to get this little painted toy,"

I appreciate that maybe you are broke and want a $5000 bike for $500, but you cannot just keep asking a questions over and over until your supposition becomes true. If you get cheap sh*t from China it is not as good as a Moots, on many levels.

Further, every time YOU spend a dollar, you are making a statement.

Maybe it is time for your statement to stop being "I am cheap and want the best deal regardless of who I hurt to get it."

Or you can just ride your Chinese Ti bike, pull on your seal-fur cape and give your girlfriend some blood diamonds.

[FlashUNC]

I am not sure why anyone needs this explained.

Either of two things:
1. maybe you are too young to understand this yet (you spent your whole developmental life in a disposable world)
2. maybe you are from an obscure country that is not over-run with Chinese crap.


Cheap stuff made with slave labor in countries with no environmental or human rights standards, end up being shi**y.

Whether it is a the 2 cent light bulb that only turns on once, the drywall that off gases and gives you cancer, the children's toys with lead paint. The reverse-engineered bicycle whose geometry is off and develops a dangerous speed wobble over 35mph, the bungee cord that frays and pops when it gets wet.

Every single "cheaper" item I have bought form China, thousands over dozens of years - all have ended up being sh**ty and costing me more to replace.

I really am not sure what you need to hear or be told.

Products made by negligent "engineers" in countries that dont care about their own citizens and certainly don't care about you or the welfare of your children or parents.

Once upon a time, here in America, things were made by real people, who were happily making a nice wage, observing environmental regulations, and may have thought "what if my daughter were to get this little painted toy,"

I appreciate that maybe you are broke and want a $5000 bike for $500, but you cannot just keep asking a questions over and over until your supposition becomes true. If you get cheap sh*t from China it is not as good as a Moots, on many levels.

Further, every time YOU spend a dollar, you are making a statement.

Maybe it is time for your statement to stop being "I am cheap and want the best deal regardless of who I hurt to get it."

Or you can just ride your Chinese Ti bike, pull on your seal-fur cape and give your girlfriend some blood diamonds.

I'm totally fine with you having a different opinion than I, but the implied personal attacks are completely ridiculous, when I've done nothing other than voice my opinion.

Normally, I'd be happy to discuss my views on this and why I think the way do and have a civilized debate. But really dude? In one post you decided to insult my perceived lack of age/experience/monthly income. Then proceeded to conflate all this with seal clubbing and blood diamonds.

I'm sorry if my post peed in your Corn Flakes. But seriously, go punch a pillow. Your attitude sucks.

[froze]

I ride a Ti LeMond on the road, and a Ti Kona on the trails. Don't have a Ti 'cross bike/gravel bike, but I'm (casually) looking at it.

I'd look at Habanero Cycles (http://www.habcycles.com/) for inexpensive Ti with an American importer. Lots of stock options, and custom for a few hundred more.

But for inexpensive custom Ti, the best option I know of is Carver Bikes (http://www.carverbikes.com/frames/custom-ti) out of Maine, who appear to do their work on-site.

No relation to either, just looking myself...

Habanero are made in China imported to America as you said, and they cost as much as a similar equipped Lynskey MADE in America, so why bother?

[reggiebaseball]

I'm totally fine with you having a different opinion than I, but the implied personal attacks are completely ridiculous, when I've done nothing other than voice my opinion.

Normally, I'd be happy to discuss my views on this and why I think the way do and have a civilized debate. But really dude? In one post you decided to insult my perceived lack of age/experience/monthly income. Then proceeded to conflate all this with seal clubbing and blood diamonds.

I'm sorry if my post peed in your Corn Flakes. But seriously, go punch a pillow. Your attitude sucks.

I actually meant to insult you AND anyone else who mimicked your point of view in this thread.

Yours was just the closest, and got pulled into the "Quote" function.

Buying Chinese sh*t sucks, stop defending it and stop buying it.

If you are eloquent enough to be insulted and express yourself in such a manner than you are likely smart enough to know better, while the other posters at least have ignorance as a defense.

[JLNK]

The issue of ti bikes from China will certainly bring out different perspectives. I have 3 Serotta frames (2 steel road, one steel mtn) each with custom geo. I have 2 Lighthouse custom road frames and 3 custom ti road frames from Habanero. The Hab frames have welding that is equal to if not better than welds I have seen on big name, high dollar ti frames. The Hab frames have been wonderful products and made into wonderful bikes I have ridden for years.

[AngryScientist]

I am not sure why anyone needs this explained.

Either of two things:
1. maybe you are too young to understand this yet (you spent your whole developmental life in a disposable world)
2. maybe you are from an obscure country that is not over-run with Chinese crap.


Cheap stuff made with slave labor in countries with no environmental or human rights standards, end up being shi**y.

Whether it is a the 2 cent light bulb that only turns on once, the drywall that off gases and gives you cancer, the children's toys with lead paint. The reverse-engineered bicycle whose geometry is off and develops a dangerous speed wobble over 35mph, the bungee cord that frays and pops when it gets wet.

Every single "cheaper" item I have bought form China, thousands over dozens of years - all have ended up being sh**ty and costing me more to replace.

I really am not sure what you need to hear or be told.

Products made by negligent "engineers" in countries that dont care about their own citizens and certainly don't care about you or the welfare of your children or parents.

Once upon a time, here in America, things were made by real people, who were happily making a nice wage, observing environmental regulations, and may have thought "what if my daughter were to get this little painted toy,"

I appreciate that maybe you are broke and want a $5000 bike for $500, but you cannot just keep asking a questions over and over until your supposition becomes true. If you get cheap sh*t from China it is not as good as a Moots, on many levels.

Further, every time YOU spend a dollar, you are making a statement.

Maybe it is time for your statement to stop being "I am cheap and want the best deal regardless of who I hurt to get it."

Or you can just ride your Chinese Ti bike, pull on your seal-fur cape and give your girlfriend some blood diamonds.

it is entirely possible to express your opinion without attacking another member directly. remember that there are three sides to every story/argument. Side A, Side B, and the truth; rarely does one side have things absolutely correct. Please keep the conversation civil and refrain from hurling grenades as above. Thanks.

[froze]

"conflate all this with seal clubbing and blood diamonds".

Wow, that's some great writing. I love it.

[AngryScientist]

I actually meant to insult you AND anyone else who mimicked your point of view in this thread.



And this is a good example of a completely unacceptable attitude in a public forum.