Bike upgrade dilemma

[Erik_A]

I have a stock 1998 Bianchi Veloce with a steel (Dedacciai Zero/Uno butted) frame. Dedacciai Zero/Uno is a heavier gauge steel, which works well for me since I am currently 220 lbs and 6'-4" tall. The frame fits me well, and I like the ride quality.

The bike in general is pretty heavy, with a steel fork and nondescript wheels: Bianchi Nth 520 rims, w/ Campy hubs.

My upgrade dilemma is whether I should go with a new bike with a more modern carbon frame (but lower cost stock components due to cost); or keep the frame an upgrade to a carbon fork and carbon wheels. I am leaning towards the later since I have heard that the most "bang for your buck" bike upgrade in in the wheelset (and I have a lead on an affordable 1" thread-less carbon fork and carbon handlebars).

What do you guys think? Would it be pointless to put money into an older frame?

[tiretrax]

Get a new bike. Custom ti!

[dave thompson]

I have a stock 1998 Bianchi Veloce with a steel (Dedacciai Zero/Uno butted) frame. Dedacciai Zero/Uno is a heavier gauge steel, which works well for me since I am currently 220 lbs and 6'-4" tall. The frame fits me well, and I like the ride quality.

The bike in general is pretty heavy, with a steel fork and nondescript wheels: Bianchi Nth 520 rims, w/ Campy hubs.

My upgrade dilemma is whether I should go with a new bike with a more modern carbon frame (but lower cost stock components due to cost); or keep the frame an upgrade to a carbon fork and carbon wheels. I am leaning towards the later since I have heard that the most "bang for your buck" bike upgrade in in the wheelset (and I have a lead on an affordable 1" thread-less carbon fork and carbon handlebars).

What do you guys think? Would it be pointless to put money into an older frame?

Not at all. You've said the frame works well for you and I assume it fits you. I'd say do the wheels first. Like you stated; more bang for the buck. I would put off changing out the fork until you get the new wheels, they might be all you need. Notice I didn't say 'want'.

[AngryScientist]

Hi Erik,

take everything i say with a grain of salt, they are just my opinions.

if you like the ride of your bike, you should certainly keep it over getting something cheap in the CF market, you're unlikely to gain anything there. do you just want to "upgrade" because you feel the itch for something new or what?

at your weight, i think carbon fiber wheels are a bad idea. i ALWAYS think carbon fiber handlebars are a bad idea. be careful with buying older, used carbon fiber forks too, could be any number of things wrong with them.

your best bet would be to get some nice alloy wheels for your bike. something durable and light. think handbuilt wheels, anything from the ksyrium line, or anything from campy's prebuilt line. my shamals are arguably the best wheels i own.

[EricEstlund]

Before you spend any money, think about what it is you are trying to do.

Improve fit?
Change in handling?
Better mechanical perormance?
Lighter weight (for it's own sake?)?
Cooler/ newer/ better looking?

It's very easy to spend money and have something different. Different doesn't necessarily meet your performance goals.


*Different for the sake of different is fine, too.

[dave thompson]

Before you spend any money, think about what it is you are trying to do.

Improve fit?
Change in handling?
Better mechanical perormance?
Lighter weight (for it's own sake?)?
Cooler/ newer/ better looking?

It's very easy to spend money and have something different. Different doesn't necessarily meet your performance goals.


*Different for the sake of different is fine, too.
Dimmit Eric, there you go again, talking sense!

[Erik_A]

Thanks guys: Yea if I went with a new carbon fiber frame, I couldn't afford expensive wheels.

Those Shamals look sweet ( http://www.totalcycling.com/a-z/wheels_road/wheels_campagnolo/WH_SHAMAL_12_BLK.html?currency=USD&gclid=CJbCg-aB3LICFWlnOgod0CAAGw ) but, at my weight, I would worry about the low spoke count.

What would the best 32 spoke (3 cross) alloy wheels be (pre-built)?

Hi Erik,

take everything i say with a grain of salt, they are just my opinions.

if you like the ride of your bike, you should certainly keep it over getting something cheap in the CF market, you're unlikely to gain anything there. do you just want to "upgrade" because you feel the itch for something new or what?

at your weight, i think carbon fiber wheels are a bad idea. i ALWAYS think carbon fiber handlebars are a bad idea. be careful with buying older, used carbon fiber forks too, could be any number of things wrong with them.

your best bet would be to get some nice alloy wheels for your bike. something durable and light. think handbuilt wheels, anything from the ksyrium line, or anything from campy's prebuilt line. my shamals are arguably the best wheels i own.

[dekindy]

Lose 30 pounds and you won't worry about it. Seriously, it sounds like you don't need a thing.

The only thing I would recommend is getting some 2-way fit alloy wheels(Shimano Ultegra or Dura Ace would support your weight just fine or some of Stan's higher spoke count rims if you prefer) and running Hutchinson road tubeless with Caffelatex sealant for puncture resistance. Combine that wheel/tire combination with your steel frame and you will have one of the smoothest riding bikes that you could find.

If you keep from going crazy light the most that you can save is a couple of pounds. If you input that into a power calculator the difference is very small. Better off getting back to my original statement and you can lose a bike to a bike and a half in weight from your body. That will make a difference. The ride will improve also since the frame can flex more with the lesser weight.

[dave thompson]

Thanks guys: Yea if I went with a new carbon fiber frame, I couldn't afford expensive wheels.

Those Shamals look sweet ( http://www.totalcycling.com/a-z/wheels_road/wheels_campagnolo/WH_SHAMAL_12_BLK.html?currency=USD&gclid=CJbCg-aB3LICFWlnOgod0CAAGw ) but, at my weight, I would worry about the low spoke count.

What would the best 32 spoke (3 cross) alloy wheels be (pre-built)?

Why prebuilt? You can get a better wheel for the same or less money from a good wheel builder, of which we have more than a few here on the forum: Echelon John, Ergott, Old Potatoe are the names that spring to mind and I apologize for not remembering all wheelbuilders that frequent here. Contact them, give them the pertinent info and see what happens. There are a lot of happy riders here that had wheels made for them by fine folks on the forum

[lzuk]

a pre-owned Ottrott may be the ticket! Stick with alloy wheels.

[biker72]

Why prebuilt? You can get a better wheel for the same or less money from a good wheel builder, of which we have more than a few here on the forum: Echelon John, Ergott, Old Potatoe are the names that spring to mind and I apologize for not remembering all wheelbuilders that frequent here. Contact them, give them the pertinent info and see what happens. There are a lot of happy riders here that had wheels made for them by fine folks on the forum
+1
This is excellent advice.

[Erik_A]

Good point - Why prebuilt? You can get a better wheel for the same or less money from a good wheel builder, of which we have more than a few here on the forum: Echelon John, Ergott, Old Potatoe are the names that spring to mind and I apologize for not remembering all wheelbuilders that frequent here. Contact them, give them the pertinent info and see what happens. There are a lot of happy riders here that had wheels made for them by fine folks on the forum

[Erik_A]

Yes, I do hope to lose about 25-30 lbs. That being equal to 2 bikes is an interesting point. Now for the hard work!

Lose 30 pounds and you won't worry about it. Seriously, it sounds like you don't need a thing.

The only thing I would recommend is getting some 2-way fit alloy wheels(Shimano Ultegra or Dura Ace would support your weight just fine or some of Stan's higher spoke count rims if you prefer) and running Hutchinson road tubeless with Caffelatex sealant for puncture resistance. Combine that wheel/tire combination with your steel frame and you will have one of the smoothest riding bikes that you could find.

If you keep from going crazy light the most that you can save is a couple of pounds. If you input that into a power calculator the difference is very small. Better off getting back to my original statement and you can lose a bike to a bike and a half in weight from your body. That will make a difference. The ride will improve also since the frame can flex more with the lesser weight.

[eddief]

modern carbon forked lightweight steel with 1500 gram wheels weighs 21 lbs. Similarly equipped Specialized Roubaix weighs 16.5 lbs. Wheels are both custom sets with 24/28 spokes on one and 28/32 spokes on the other. I really like both bikes a lot, but would choose the Roubaix most any day as my favorite. Regardless of your own weight, I bet you'd enjoy the heck out of a lighter bike...no matter which bike you choose. On the other hand, if you only have one bike and no basis for comparison, you will like the one you're with.

[EricEstlund]

Dimmit Eric, there you go again, talking sense!

I can't help myself. I don't have anything against frivolously throwing money at a project because you have the cash and want to have fun with it. But I wouldn't want anyone to throw money around carelessly if they are trying to address specific things. Fancy wheels won't make a frame fit better, for example.

[Erik_A]

Actually, the fit is fine on the steel Bianchi. I could use new wheels though. Since the ones I am running are stock (1998).

Before you spend any money, think about what it is you are trying to do.

Improve fit?
Change in handling?
Better mechanical perormance?
Lighter weight (for it's own sake?)?
Cooler/ newer/ better looking?

It's very easy to spend money and have something different. Different doesn't necessarily meet your performance goals.


*Different for the sake of different is fine, too.

[EricEstlund]

Thanks Erik- that wasn't meant for you specifically, just in the general sense of upgrade-itus.

You wrote:
"My upgrade dilemma is whether I should go with a new bike with a more modern carbon frame (but lower cost stock components due to cost); or keep the frame an upgrade to a carbon fork and carbon wheels."

I may have missed it, but I didn't read what you were looking to improve on. Assuming the fit is good, are you simply looking for the most cost effective weight loss, or is there a performance change you are hoping for?

Re: the wheels- "upgrade" could mean all sorts of things (strength, weight, aero, looks, braking, road feel, etc).

Not trying to nitpick. "Upgrades" might not be "improvements" unless they are tailored to your needs- I just want to make sure your getting advice leading you in the direction that is right for you.

[Erik_A]

Good, points - maybe I will just keep what i've got and work on the engine. - Cheers.


Thanks Erik- that wasn't meant for you specifically, just in the general sense of upgrade-itus.

You wrote:
"My upgrade dilemma is whether I should go with a new bike with a more modern carbon frame (but lower cost stock components due to cost); or keep the frame an upgrade to a carbon fork and carbon wheels."

I may have missed it, but I didn't read what you were looking to improve on. Assuming the fit is good, are you simply looking for the most cost effective weight loss, or is there a performance change you are hoping for?

Re: the wheels- "upgrade" could mean all sorts of things (strength, weight, aero, looks, braking, road feel, etc).

Not trying to nitpick. "Upgrades" might not be "improvements" unless they are tailored to your needs- I just want to make sure your getting advice leading you in the direction that is right for you.

[jlwdm]

modern carbon forked lightweight steel with 1500 gram wheels weighs 21 lbs. Similarly equipped Specialized Roubaix weighs 16.5 lbs. Wheels are both custom sets with 24/28 spokes on one and 28/32 spokes on the other. I really like both bikes a lot, but would choose the Roubaix most any day as my favorite. Regardless of your own weight, I bet you'd enjoy the heck out of a lighter bike...no matter which bike you choose. On the other hand, if you only have one bike and no basis for comparison, you will like the one you're with.

????

A modern lightweight steel bike does not weigh 4.5 lbs more than a similarly equipped Roubaix.

Jeff

[palincss]

I have a stock 1998 Bianchi Veloce with a steel (Dedacciai Zero/Uno butted) frame. Dedacciai Zero/Uno is a heavier gauge steel, which works well for me since I am currently 220 lbs and 6'-4" tall. The frame fits me well, and I like the ride quality.

The bike in general is pretty heavy, with a steel fork and nondescript wheels: Bianchi Nth 520 rims, w/ Campy hubs.

My upgrade dilemma is whether I should go with a new bike with a more modern carbon frame (but lower cost stock components due to cost); or keep the frame an upgrade to a carbon fork and carbon wheels.

I think you should lose 20 lb. first, then assess the situation.

[oldpotatoe]

I have a stock 1998 Bianchi Veloce with a steel (Dedacciai Zero/Uno butted) frame. Dedacciai Zero/Uno is a heavier gauge steel, which works well for me since I am currently 220 lbs and 6'-4" tall. The frame fits me well, and I like the ride quality.

The bike in general is pretty heavy, with a steel fork and nondescript wheels: Bianchi Nth 520 rims, w/ Campy hubs.

My upgrade dilemma is whether I should go with a new bike with a more modern carbon frame (but lower cost stock components due to cost); or keep the frame an upgrade to a carbon fork and carbon wheels. I am leaning towards the later since I have heard that the most "bang for your buck" bike upgrade in in the wheelset (and I have a lead on an affordable 1" thread-less carbon fork and carbon handlebars).

What do you guys think? Would it be pointless to put money into an older frame?

Think of this way, you will spend lotsa $ to save what, 3-5 pounds from the bike. Fair amount if you just consider the bike but of the bike and rider, it's a very small percentage. Even the high end of 5 pounds, in a bike and rider plus all the 'stuff' needed to ride is a package of 245 pounds or so? 2%. Saving that 2% in weight will not automatically mean you will be 2 faster or climb 2% better.

Upgrade to things that 'work' better, make the ride better. Something lighter isn't necessarily better, just lighter, and in terms of reliability, may be worse.

BUT since you mentioned it...I see 20 pounds as a SDW-Standard Bike Weight...lose one of those, you bike weighs less than 5 pounds, lose another, your bike is in negative numbers.

[oldpotatoe]

modern carbon forked lightweight steel with 1500 gram wheels weighs 21 lbs. Similarly equipped Specialized Roubaix weighs 16.5 lbs. Wheels are both custom sets with 24/28 spokes on one and 28/32 spokes on the other. I really like both bikes a lot, but would choose the Roubaix most any day as my favorite. Regardless of your own weight, I bet you'd enjoy the heck out of a lighter bike...no matter which bike you choose. On the other hand, if you only have one bike and no basis for comparison, you will like the one you're with.

Balderdash. A modern steel frame isn't 4.5 pounds heavier than a specialized frame. Modern steel frames are in the 3.5 pound range, specialized in the 2.2-2.5 pound range. you need a new scale.

[eddief]

thanks for the doubt.

[Fixed]

[/B]
Not at all. You've said the frame works well for you and I assume it fits you. I'd say do the wheels first. Like you stated; more bang for the buck. I would put off changing out the fork until you get the new wheels, they might be all you need. Notice I didn't say 'want'.

I am with this
Some highly sought after dream bikes still come with a steel fork, and it was designed for your frame
IMHO
Cheers :)

[oldpotatoe]

thanks for the doubt.

Well, gotta be apples to apples. I have no doubt one bike weighs 21 pounds and the other is 16.5...but it's not just the frame.

[rodcad]

I think you should lose 20 lb. first, then assess the situation.

I agree. I'm 6'-4" and 220# also.

Never trusted carbon or lightweight stuff myself.

You didn't mention if this is your only bike or one of many. That would influence my decision. I have spent countless thousands of dollars chasing that elusive "one", and for me it doesn't seem to exist. Once you get to the upper end in quality they are all pretty damn awesome. A lot of this of course depends how fat your wallet is.

[Erik_A]

This is my road bike (I also have cyclocross ab MTB). The people I ride with are all on carbon. I am leaning towards keeping the steel frame/ fork and getting new wheels; but probably just Mavic Open Pros 32H with Ultegra hubs. _ yea, I am trying to lose weight - so I will focus on that (and conditioning).

I agree. I'm 6'-4" and 220# also.

Never trusted carbon or lightweight stuff myself.

You didn't mention if this is your only bike or one of many. That would influence my decision. I have spent countless thousands of dollars chasing that elusive "one", and for me it doesn't seem to exist. Once you get to the upper end in quality they are all pretty damn awesome. A lot of this of course depends how fat your wallet is.
.

[oldpotatoe]

This is my road bike (I also have cyclocross ab MTB). The people I ride with are all on carbon. I am leaning towards keeping the steel frame/ fork and getting new wheels; but probably just Mavic Open Pros 32H with Ultegra hubs. _ yea, I am trying to lose weight - so I will focus on that (and conditioning).


.

4 spokes weigh 28 grams..36 hole rear wheel is a better choice than 32h rear wheel. A powerbar weighs 57 grams, for comparison.

Also maybe CXP-33 rims.

[christian]

modern carbon forked lightweight steel with 1500 gram wheels weighs 21 lbs.This is just insanely wrong. I have a Zanc cx bike with an Alpha Q and built with a hodge podge of Campy Centaur/Mirage and old Dura-Ace cranks. With a pair of 33mm tubulars and a bunch of mud on it, it's still around 18 pounds. Yo, it's got MIRAGE on it.

My Merckx MX-Leader is 22 lbs, but that fork can actually be used to kill someone. Put a carbon fork on a MXL (well, as a thought experiment), and it's easy to get a MX-L under 20 lbs even.

Eddie, someone has poured sand down your seat tube, I suspect.

[bart998]

I also weigh 220lbs. and I've owned a Calfee with no problem and now ride a Landshark Carbon with Deda carbon bars, no problem but I don't buy super light stuff either. Never owned carbon wheels because of the cost/brakes issues but do have Ksyrium Equip and Campy Khamsin wheels for it that I like. I figure the frame will last but wheels generally wear out or get damaged over time so I put more into the frame. I also have Ti and Steel bikes that ride great. If you like your frame, upgrade the parts for now and move to a lighter frame later if needed or desired. Or just save for a second bike down the road.

[classtimesailer]

This is my road bike (I also have cyclocross ab MTB). The people I ride with are all on carbon. I am leaning towards keeping the steel frame/ fork and getting new wheels; but probably just Mavic Open Pros 32H with Ultegra hubs. _ yea, I am trying to lose weight - so I will focus on that (and conditioning).
.

Good. New wheels and a different set of tires. Have fun. If I was buying a fifth bike (I have 3 all steel now), I would consider a total carbon package. Everyone I ride with is on carbon also. They look pro. I look like an old pro if I ride without a helmet.

[aoe]

I can't help myself. I don't have anything against frivolously throwing money at a project because you have the cash and want to have fun with it. But I wouldn't want anyone to throw money around carelessly if they are trying to address specific things. Fancy wheels won't make a frame fit better, for example.

^^ this. I think if you can provide more specifics about what exactly you're hoping to accomplish and, if you don't mind, the budget your working with you'll get a lot of great advice here.

Another couple factors I'd throw into the equation is fitness and performance. Fitness overcomes most any bike weight penalty for the casual rider IMO. Over here in the Oakland/Berkeley Hills it's not uncommon to see a commuter loaded up with saddle bags on some Brand X "heavy" steel bike screaming past people up a steep ascent and I can't tell you the smile it puts on my face every time (unless it's me).

From a performance perspective what do you want it to do? I've got an Alu Gaulzetti that is great for long or short rides but I reach for it when I want to go for a hard, shorter effort and its such a great descending bike it just makes my standard 20-30mi before-work-ride so much more fun. It's not my lightest bike by a stretch but the combination of weight, big ole tubes and geo is what makes it rail so hard. The longest ride I've ever done was a very hilly route through Marin and did it on an MXL which is fairly stout and my heaviest bike complete but was the right bike for when your exhausted, can barely keep your hands on the bars, and don't want the stress of worrying about potholes throwing you and your ultra-light carbon frame and wheels around. You're Bianchi fits you, which is 90% of the battle IMO, and seems to be giving you all that you "need" at the moment. When it stops serving that purpose perhaps just look at where you've outgrown the bike and start from there.

But like I said, if you're just ready for something new, if you give a price range you'll likely get a 100(0) good options.

Cheers

[eddief]

Balderdash. A modern steel frame isn't 4.5 pounds heavier than a specialized frame. Modern steel frames are in the 3.5 pound range, specialized in the 2.2-2.5 pound range. you need a new scale.

I did weigh the Roubaix and coupled steel Curtlo with Enve carbon fork.

The Roubaix weighed 17lb 4oz and the Curtlo 20lb 10oz. So the steel one is 3lb 6oz heavier.

The Roubaix is built to be lighter with XTR cassette, Ultegra crank and brakes, carbon post, carbon bars, carbon cages, no outboard bearings on the crank.

The Curtlo has alloy bars, steel cages, 105 crank and brakes, alloy post, AND at least 8oz of couplers.

Most of the time, for faster club rides, the Roubaix would still be first chosen.

[palincss]

I did weigh the Roubaix and coupled steel Curtlo with Enve carbon fork.

The Roubaix weighed 17lb 4oz and the Curtlo 20lb 10oz. So the steel one is 3lb 6oz heavier.


Your Roubaix frame does not weigh 17 lb 4 oz; neither does your Curtlo frame
weigh 20. You've switched the discussion from frame weight to frame plus components.

[Erik_A]

Well- I did decide to do an "upgrade" of sorts, bought this used tonight with everything accept a wheelset:

2003 Lemond Zurich 61cm road bike
Measured Geometry
Seat tube = 61cm center to center, 63.5cm to top of clamp
Top Tube = 61cm center to center
Head tube = 22cm including headset
Fork tube length = 30cm (~12")
Stand over height = 86.5cm (~34.25")

Frame & Fork
Frame Construction TIG-welded
Colors Black/Red
Frame Tubing Material Reynolds 853
Fork Brand & Model Bontrager Race Lite Carbon
Fork Material Carbon fiber, aero crown

Components
Component Group Shimano Ultegra
Brakeset Shimano Ultegra Dual Pivot brakes, Shimano Ultegra STI Dual Control levers
Shift Levers Shimano Ultegra STI Dual Control
Front Derailleur Shimano Ultegra
Rear Derailleur Shimano Ultegra GS
Crankset Shimano Dura Ace, 39/53 teeth

Bottom Bracket Shimano BB-6500, 109.5mm spindle
BB Shell Width 68mm English
Rear Cogs 9-speed, 12 - 27 teeth
Chain Shimano CN-HG92, 1/2 x 3/32"
Seatpost Lemond Aluminum micro-adjust

Handlebar 3T Forgie XL (44) Oversized

Handlebar Stem 3T Forgie XL
Headset 1 1/8" threadless Cane Creek S-2