Want a Time, Pinarello, Specialized or Cervelo for cheap?

[Keith A]

Well you can get one from here...
http://cyclingyong.com/category.php?id=140

But they aren't the real thing. How is it possible that the real manufactures can't shut these guys down?

[dave thompson]

China has very lax laws regarding counterfeits and this has been an ongoing problem for years.

[Keith A]

So there is no recourse for the real OEMs?

[slidey]

Check out Top Gear S18 E2. They have a section about the auto industry in China...in it they highlight one instance where a major manufacturer sued the Chinese manufacturer who had clearly ripped it off, and the Govt ruled in favour of the Chinese company. In other words, copyright is a joke in China.

Well you can get one from here...
http://cyclingyong.com/category.php?id=140

But they aren't the real thing. How is it possible that the real manufactures can't shut these guys down?

[slidey]

None whatsoever, from whatever I've heard or come across.

So there is no recourse for the real OEMs?

[54ny77]

You got it all wrong.

They copy just right.

;)

Check out Top Gear S18 E2. They have a section about the auto industry in China...in it they highlight one instance where a major manufacturer sued the Chinese manufacturer who had clearly ripped it off, and the Govt ruled in favour of the Chinese company. In other words, copyright is a joke in China.

[dave thompson]

You only can look at the fake Pinarellos being offered on eBay to get an idea of the magnitude of the blatant counterfeits being offered by Chinese 'manufacturers'. It's been an ongoing problem for quite a while and if there were some sort of recourse, it would have been stopped by now.

I'm sure that all of the affected companies have tried to stem this gush of theft of intellectual and manufacturing properties but the sheer number of brands and units hasn't abated yet. The euphemism for these copies is "Chinarellos". It's become sort of an in joke.

There's a whole set of threads over on RBR regarding these. Apparently they are good copies, at least on the exterior (paint and finish) and some reports there regarding the lack quality of the interior (build/construction).

[slidey]

Touché turtle! :D

You got it all wrong.

They copy just right.

;)

[Joachim]

Not only do they sell rip-off's, there are numerous reports of them taking money and not shipping anything. I wonder if people then complain that they knowingly bought a fake and subsequently got scammed?

[sg8357]

The Chinese don't believe in the job killing over regulation of business.
As The Great Helmsman said, 'Let a thousand Pinarellos bloom'

[buldogge]

We demanded it...and now we got it.

-Mark in St. Louis

[Gat64]

They even have fake Zipps - but no dimples.

[majorpat]

What a joke, how do you know if you've bought a "genuine" Pina-cervel-ized anymore?

Me? I'm getting a Rock Lobster!

[MattTuck]

They even have fake Zipps - but no dimples.

I see ultegra stuff, i wonder if that is fake also... sigh.

[oldpotatoe]

Well you can get one from here...
http://cyclingyong.com/category.php?id=140

But they aren't the real thing. How is it possible that the real manufactures can't shut these guys down?

What buldogge said. If there wasn't a demand, there wouldn't be these products. Even the largest company on earth, in terms of value, Apple, can't stop fake ipads, etc.

How do they do that, a manufacturer in China?

A French, Italian or even American company, going to China to sue them in a Chinese court?

Fake Chinese goods are an art form in China..the government isn't going to do anything about them.

[Keith A]

So are people actually buying these fakes as fakes or do they think they are real? To answer my own question, I guess there is some of both.

[AngryScientist]

So are people actually buying these fakes as fakes or do they think they are real? To answer my own question, I guess there is some of both.

keith, check this out from a guy i know on another online outlet:

http://www.johneasley.com/specialpages/PinarelloProjectBuild.aspx

[FastVegan]

That fake TIME RXRS would go great with my fake Panerai.

[firerescuefin]

keith, check this out from a guy i know on another online outlet:

http://www.johneasley.com/specialpages/PinarelloProjectBuild.aspx

So Nick...does John think that's real...

[William]

Some aren't actually fakes. They come out of the same factories that make the real ones...they just go out the back door.







William

[AngryScientist]

So Nick...does John think that's real...

i think he convinced himself that it was real when he bought it, but he knows now that it is not.

for what its worth, i really dont know him, just had a conversation about this bike. also for what it's worth, he's very happy with it so far.

[Keith A]

Some aren't actually fakes. They come out of the same factories that make the real ones...they just go out the back door.
That is probably true for some of them, but I know that the real Time's are made in France...at least their top shelf models are.

[TAW]

The fake Colnagos that I've seen have a different bottom bracket construction and headset, so in those cases I don't think they come from the same factory.

[boxerboxer]

China has very lax laws regarding counterfeits and this has been an ongoing problem for years.

It's possible the laws are lax, but in China the problem is usually enforcement rather than the laws themselves. Certain things get cracked down on under certain local/regional leaders and ignored by others.

[laupsi]

surprised Old Potato didn't mention the obvious; purchase from reputable dealer and you won't get stung, but you will pay more. as long as there's cheap, there will be cheap!

[54ny77]

Somewhere out there there must be a photo of a counterfeit bike with typos on the product name, no?

That'd be awesome.

[FlashUNC]

I'd imagine these operate on a continuum, like everything else. I'm sure some of them are "pushed out the back door" of the factory, a la Johnny Cash's "One Piece at a Time" or they're frames that failed QC for probably minor irregularities, but are otherwise totally the same bike.

Others I'm sure are just total knocks off that can't hold a candle to the real thing.

Caveat emptor applies as usual, I'd suspect.

[Keith A]

Somewhere out there there must be a photo of a counterfeit bike with typos on the product name, no?

That'd be awesome.Don't have a picture, but I've read that some of the Time RXRS's have "nanomadle europe" and promises "you won-meddonize your performance" on them.

[54ny77]

http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/shanzhai20.jpg

mmm, refreshing! :p

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZI9ZC-oL5KQ/SEf5457jJuI/AAAAAAAACb8/iGrEfLVpbC0/s400/chinese.jpg

http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/shanzhai04.jpg

time to say goodbye?

http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/shanzhai07.jpg

http://www.china-mike.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/funny-chinglish-sign-2.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7163/knockoff1.jpg

Don't have a picture, but I've read that some of the Time RXRS's have "nanomadle europe" and promises "you won-meddonize your performance" on them.

[CunegoFan]

Somewhere out there there must be a photo of a counterfeit bike with typos on the product name, no?

That'd be awesome.

Intentional but pretty cool. A Chinarello Dogpoo.

http://italiaanseracefietsen.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/chinarello.jpg

[boxerboxer]

I know it's just a taste thing, but I don't understand why someone would ever want a fake Pinarello. IMO they put the dog in Dogma. So ugly, even the real ones.

[slidey]

I hear you on that...the Dogma's a hideous looking thing.

I know it's just a taste thing, but I don't understand why someone would ever want a fake Pinarello. IMO they put the dog in Dogma. So ugly, even the real ones.

[William]

Intentional but pretty cool. A Chinarello Dogpoo.

http://italiaanseracefietsen.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/chinarello.jpg

I like the "BS" on the TT.:cool:




William

[54ny77]

that is so awesome. :hello:

[veggieburger]

Look at all the Castelli, SKY, Liquigas and BMC kits on Ebay. $40 for jersey and shorts, and many of them are printed "Voler", "Hincapie", etc. Nuts.

[thegunner]

I like the "BS" on the TT.:cool:




William

and the 'que?' onda fork :)

[sc53]

The "Dogpoo" is priceless! I have seen photos on the web of somebody who hacksawed a Chinarello in several places and pulled out newspaper, straw and various other stuff from inside the frame. These pix were all over the place a year or two ago. Not sure what it means--will your carbon frame fall apart if there's old newspapers or straw stuffed inside? Don't know why.

[rbtmcardle]

I traveled to China many times from 2000 thru 2007 to purchase stone tiles and find factories that could potentially make cut to size stone counters etc.., it is truly amazing what goes on there with regard to counterfeiting products.. I was in 4 story buildings the size of city blocks in Guangzhou with every imaginable counterfeit watch.. from Hello Kitty, to Rolex etc.. unreal.. 5 watches for $5.. at a tile factory we were asked to comment on porcelain sinks that were knockoffs of Kohlers.. enameled cast iron grills.. and on and on.. always with the question - does it look as nice as the (insert actual product here) does.. is it something that home depot would buy.. truly an eye opening experience.. I have no desire to go back, there are other countries in Asia that I will go back to.. Thailand yes, Japan yes, china no.

[William]

I traveled to China many times from 2000 thru 2007 to purchase stone tiles and find factories that could potentially make cut to size stone counters etc.., it is truly amazing what goes on there with regard to counterfeiting products.. I was in 4 story buildings the size of city blocks in Guangzhou with every imaginable counterfeit watch.. from Hello Kitty, to Rolex etc.. unreal.. 5 watches for $5.. at a tile factory we were asked to comment on porcelain sinks that were knockoffs of Kohlers.. enameled cast iron grills.. and on and on.. always with the question - does it look as nice as the (insert actual product here) does.. is it something that home depot would by.. truly an eye opening experience.. I have no desire to go back, there are other countries in Asia that I will go back to.. Thailand yes, Japan yes, china no.

Yes. Lighting in my case. Brass and crystal chandeliers and light fixtures. "UL" labled fire hazards in many cases.:rolleyes:





William



William

[boxerboxer]

I traveled to China many times from 2000 thru 2007 to purchase stone tiles and find factories that could potentially make cut to size stone counters etc.., it is truly amazing what goes on there with regard to counterfeiting products.. I was in 4 story buildings the size of city blocks in Guangzhou with every imaginable counterfeit watch.. from Hello Kitty, to Rolex etc.. unreal.. 5 watches for $5.. at a tile factory we were asked to comment on porcelain sinks that were knockoffs of Kohlers.. enameled cast iron grills.. and on and on.. always with the question - does it look as nice as the (insert actual product here) does.. is it something that home depot would by.. truly an eye opening experience.. I have no desire to go back, there are other countries in Asia that I will go back to.. Thailand yes, Japan yes, china no.

Not saying that any of that is untrue, but dude! Not go back to China? Too much good food and awesome places not to. Don't fault you on Thailand though.

[rbtmcardle]

oh, no doubt that Hangzhou is one of the most beautiful places on earth, with the rolling hills of terraced tea. but I have had my fill of it all..
http://images.chinahighlights.com/attraction/hangzhou/west-lake/cruise-on-the-west-lake6.jpg

Not saying that any of that is untrue, but dude! Not go back to China? Too much good food and awesome places not to. Don't fault you on Thailand though.

[tuscanyswe]

Trademark protection does not seem to apply to china at all.

I think bmw took this to court and lost :)

[FlashUNC]

I'll put myself in the minority. I really like how Pinarello's look.

Even test rode an FP3 for a weekend. Loved it.

[oldpotatoe]

Not saying that any of that is untrue, but dude! Not go back to China? Too much good food and awesome places not to. Don't fault you on Thailand though.

Been all over the FarEast, lived in Japan and I agree with the other poster.

Thailand, Korea, Japan, Philippines, you bet...no to China tho, dirty, crowded, don't want to eat dogs.

[El Chaba]

Some of the decals are priceless....
For the companies that move production to China for cheapness, but still pretend to have-and charge for-a premium product, I have no sympathy when their manufacturer copies their product or just moves production out the back door....I do feel bad for companies like Time who still manufacture in house in order to maintain a handle of tight quality control...

[Gummee]

Intentional but pretty cool. A Chinarello Dogpoo.

http://italiaanseracefietsen.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/chinarello.jpg

I don't have a problem with something like that. I'm contemplating either a Foil knockoff with S'NOTT on the downtube and Faux on the TT or a Cervelo clone with [insert clever name here] on the DT. I've got budget woes and just can't afford a real Foil or R5/R3.

I haven't actually heard of any of the chinese bikes from the 'reputable' builders (Hongfu, Dengfu, etc) having anything other than minor fit and finish problems.

My big question is if these chinese manufacturers can offer us $4-500 frames and forks with decent build quality, why does a Tarmac frame cost 5x that? Presumably the carbon and labor is right in the same ballpark as the Chinarellos...

M
YMMV and all that.

[Likes2ridefar]

My big question is if these chinese manufacturers can offer us $4-500 frames and forks with decent build quality, why does a Tarmac frame cost 5x that? Presumably the carbon and labor is right in the same ballpark as the Chinarellos...


I spoke with the owner of a factory in China that makes high end carbon frames and I was surprised to learn the actual manufacturing cost for various items. There are of course numerous other things that you need to factor in for the final cost, but a frameset that goes for nearly $5k retail in the USA costs about $500 for him to make.

I collect high end watches, and just recently ran across a forum dedicated to replicating most brands. I'm amazed at the quality of some of the replicas and would be hard pressed to tell the difference unless closely inspecting with a loupe. but they weren't exactly cheap going for 200-500 for the high quality knock-offs.

[Gummee]

I spoke with the owner of a factory in China that makes high end carbon frames and I was surprised to learn the actual manufacturing cost for various items. There are of course numerous other things that you need to factor in for the final cost, but a frameset that goes for nearly $5k retail in the USA costs about $500 for him to make.
Like I said...

I get that there's a huge cost to sponsor pro teams, etc. but c'mon!

I also get that 'perceived quality' is determined by price in lots of minds.

:dunno

M

[Likes2ridefar]

Like I said...

I get that there's a huge cost to sponsor pro teams, etc. but c'mon!

I also get that 'perceived quality' is determined by price in lots of minds.

:dunno

M

there's also research and development, delivery, staff salaries, etc etc...it all adds up.

[AngryScientist]

My big question is if these chinese manufacturers can offer us $4-500 frames and forks with decent build quality, why does a Tarmac frame cost 5x that? Presumably the carbon and labor is right in the same ballpark as the Chinarellos...
.

c'mon, think about that. do you think that these low cost overseas shops just decided on how to build a bike? worked out proper carbon lay-up and geometry on the back of their napkins?

copying a proven design is fairly easy, especially when tooled up to do so.

starting from scratch, literally inventing the tooling to make [anything], designing, testing, paying a staff - you think all of that is free??

do you think it's unfair, or "cheating" to pay a staff of engineers, designers, marketers and sales people a decent salary for their work?

i'm not picking on you gumee, but seriously - give it some thought. people with your mindset are the problem - " i can buy this knock-off for 25% of the real thing" - while the real parent companies are losing out.

[eBAUMANN]

from what i have read/heard previously about this, NONE of these frames are EXACT copies of the real deal...just close approximations (which makes me think these frames are coming from other sources beyond "the back door").

carbon fiber is a material like any other, sure you can make it LOOK like something else, but will it feel/perform the same as the original? doubtful. not to mention the non-existant customer service, should you even receive a frame to begin with...its kinda a no-brainer: AVOID.

the knock-off culture that pervades the majority of SE/E Asia is always something that will fascinate me...as there clearly exists the industry to create and yet so few actually INNOVATE, its all replication and imitation.

just part of the reason I will always buy US/1st world products whenever possible.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . gets it.

BBD

c'mon, think about that. do you think that these low cost overseas shops just decided on how to build a bike? worked out proper carbon lay-up and geometry on the back of their napkins?

copying a proven design is fairly easy, especially when tooled up to do so.

starting from scratch, literally inventing the tooling to make [anything], designing, testing, paying a staff - you think all of that is free??

do you think it's unfair, or "cheating" to pay a staff of engineers, designers, marketers and sales people a decent salary for their work?

i'm not picking on you gumee, but seriously - give it some thought. people with your mindset are the problem - " i can buy this knock-off for 25% of the real thing" - while the real parent companies are losing out.

[fuzzalow]

the knock-off culture that pervades the majority of SE/E Asia is always something that will fascinate me...as there clearly exists the industry to create and yet so few actually INNOVATE, its all replication and imitation.

That knock-off culture is merely indicative of where and how far along they are in the mode by which their economy adds or enhances to the worth of what they produce. Of course they INNOVATE. Their innovations are just unrecognized by a consumer who applies a standard of worth based on desireabilty of finished product rather than capability and adaptation towards mass production.

For example, the NYTimes article on Apple's manufacture of iPhones noted that it was made possible in part to the ability in accommodating late changes to its design. The factory & supply chains could change specs and get manufacture on the screws used to assemble the revised design of the iPhone.

This is not to defend or rationalize counterfeit carbon bike frames. Except that it exists also because it serves a maket segment. There are many layers in a global economy. And there are recognized parasitic loses all along the supply and consumption chains. That's just the way it is.

[54ny77]

Speaking of Chinese labor, Foxconn seems like quasi govt-sponsored labor camps. Work 70+ hours a week for $300/mo., live in prison-style dorms, get watched over with security run rampant or state police intervening...along with 75,000 other "workers."

Sounds great....:rolleyes:

Enjoy those iphones! ;)

[rwsaunders]

"Putty and paint makes a carbon frame look like what it ain't." Old Chinese proverb....

[fuzzalow]

Speaking of Chinese labor, Foxconn seems like quasi govt-sponsored labor camps. Work 70+ hours a week for $300/mo., live in prison-style dorms, get watched over with security run rampant or state police intervening...along with 75,000 other "workers."

Sounds great....:rolleyes:

Enjoy those iphones! ;)

And the industrial revolution was a realized Marxian utopia by comparison. :rolleyes:

[snowcrash19]

#1 reason = insurance

When you carbon frame cracks and fails and you lose all your teeth and/or are a vegetable for your entire life the company you purchased the bike from better have insurance.

Good luck collecting on that from China...

There are a lot of knock-offs but there are also a lot of legit frames too. This XPace "838" is the same as the De Rosa 838 - http://www.xpa-cycling.com/products_data.php?htm=18.html&key=1
Its also the same as one of the Swift frames. Its a solid frame as I've seen it in person. I'm actually considering purchasing a Dengfu here shortly. http://dengfubikes.com/product/detail.php?id=189 seen this frame in person as well - works well :)

[Admiral Ackbar]

zombie thread, back from the dead.

*cue furious debate over chinese carbon frames and finding your teeth on the ground*

[Black Dog]

Click the link in the op and.....

1697886073

[ultraman6970]

chan chaaaan chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnn!!!

[vqdriver]

That's an intimidating landing page.

[seanile]

That's an intimidating landing page.

I've hit that only once before, on a version of thepiratebay.. i was trying a few different .extensions to reach the site while my usual was down and i hit that page. kinda freaked me out a bit.

[oldpotatoe]

Well you can get one from here...
http://cyclingyong.com/category.php?id=140

But they aren't the real thing. How is it possible that the real manufactures can't shut these guys down?

Go there now..website siezed by the US Gubment. Oppps, dupe and 2 year old thread..

[CunegoFan]

Go there now..website siezed by the US Gubment.

No, Only the domain was seized, which is stupid because it weakens the world's willingness to have critical Internet infrastructure controlled by the U.S.

Cyclingyong will simply get a new domain name. It does not manufacture the frames. They are made by Flybike, which designs some of their frames to be similar in appearance to those of known brands, much like some car companies steal the design language of German luxury cars. Cyclingyong is just a distributer that paints frames to look like Pinarellos. It is a cheap operation to run.

[Gfi3]

That fake TIME RXRS would go great with my fake Panerai.


Haha! Is it a noob 111 V3? :)