Walsh on Hamilton

[LegendRider]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106723113/Walsh-Hamilton

[fourflys]

wow, heartfelt stuff... I like Tyler and really think he did the right thing for the right reasons (writing the book)... I really don't think he cared about the money or revenge when writing the book... I wish Tyler all the happiness he can have from here on out...

[LegendRider]

wow, heartfelt stuff... I like Tyler and really think he did the right thing for the right reasons (writing the book)... I really don't think he cared about the money or revenge when writing the book... I wish Tyler all the happiness he can have from here on out...

Completely agree. He has fully redeemed himself in my eyes.

[G-Reg]

I have always and still admire his grit and determination and while I generally believe him, part of the story only goes to show that he has always lacked moral fiber but is great at "heartfelt" apologies when he gets caught.

In my world, Sorries don't change much. It is what it is.



"......he made the New Hampshire state team and at the end-of-year awards, he and two buddies were each given a pass that would allow them toski free anywhere in the state through the following year.“We were high school kids, didn’t have a lot of money and one day during spring break, conditions got windy at the area where we were and we went to another. On theway out we sold our tickets, made $20 each. We drove to a different mountain, got our tickets, sold them, went to another and made another 20. Then in the lastplace, we got greedy, we went to the two ticket windows, one on the east side,the other on the west, and we got caught.“My dad came from Boston and brought me home. It was the most disappointed I’ve everseen him. We talked about it and went through all the people I had let down. Isaid I would write letters to each one. I sat at home and hand-wrote 40 letters.The sentiments were heartfelt and apologetic......”

[fourflys]

"......he made the New Hampshire state team and at the end-of-year awards, he and two buddies were each given a pass that would allow them toski free anywhere in the state through the following year.“We were high school kids, didn’t have a lot of money and one day during spring break, conditions got windy at the area where we were and we went to another. On theway out we sold our tickets, made $20 each. We drove to a different mountain, got our tickets, sold them, went to another and made another 20. Then in the lastplace, we got greedy, we went to the two ticket windows, one on the east side,the other on the west, and we got caught.“My dad came from Boston and brought me home. It was the most disappointed I’ve everseen him. We talked about it and went through all the people I had let down. Isaid I would write letters to each one. I sat at home and hand-wrote 40 letters.The sentiments were heartfelt and apologetic......”

not that I'm saying what he did here was right, but teenagers make stupid decisions most of the time... not sure this is anything out of the ordinary for a teenager... I will say it sounds like Tyler might be impressionable at times when confronted with someone more forceful... again, not really a odd personality trait... pretty normal for some...

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

wow, heartfelt stuff... I like Tyler and really think he did the right thing for the right reasons (writing the book)... I really don't think he cared about the money or revenge when writing the book... I wish Tyler all the happiness he can have from here on out...

+1 billion!!!!

[holliscx]

Somebody please start a fund to get Tyler a haircut he looks like a Dbag

[Bob Loblaw]

I don't know much about Tyler Hamilton, except this: He is a very believable liar. When he commits 100% to his lies, he comes across as very believable and sympathetic.

Maybe once I read the book my opinion will change. Right now that's all I've got.

BL

[fourflys]

Somebody please start a fund to get Tyler a haircut he looks like a Dbag

wow, that's an uncalled for comment...

[Grant McLean]

Somebody please start a fund to get Tyler a haircut


I actually find it interesting he seems to have decided to change his physical
appearance, as if to outwardly symbolize the changes in his life,
and differentiate himself now from his past.

-g

[LO^OK]

I have always and still admire his grit and determination and while I generally believe him, part of the story only goes to show that he has always lacked moral fiber but is great at "heartfelt" apologies when he gets caught.

In my world, Sorries don't change much. It is what it is.



"......he made the New Hampshire state team and at the end-of-year awards, he and two buddies were each given a pass that would allow them toski free anywhere in the state through the following year.“We were high school kids, didn’t have a lot of money and one day during spring break, conditions got windy at the area where we were and we went to another. On theway out we sold our tickets, made $20 each. We drove to a different mountain, got our tickets, sold them, went to another and made another 20. Then in the lastplace, we got greedy, we went to the two ticket windows, one on the east side,the other on the west, and we got caught.“My dad came from Boston and brought me home. It was the most disappointed I’ve everseen him. We talked about it and went through all the people I had let down. Isaid I would write letters to each one. I sat at home and hand-wrote 40 letters.The sentiments were heartfelt and apologetic......”

not that I'm saying what he did here was right, but teenagers make stupid decisions most of the time... not sure this is anything out of the ordinary for a teenager... I will say it sounds like Tyler might be impressionable at times when confronted with someone more forceful... again, not really a odd personality trait... pretty normal for some...

Certainly, teenagers do silly and immature things on the spur of the moment, and that's only natural. The quoted passage, however, imply more of a calculating cunning mind aimed specifically to defraud. For a teenager that is a disturbing trait.

[fourflys]

Certainly, teenagers do silly and immature things on the spur of the moment, and that's only natural. The quoted passage, however, imply more of a calculating cunning mind aimed specifically to defraud. For a teenager that is a disturbing trait.

I guess my point was we don't know who the "mastermind" was behind it... No idea if Tyler was the leader or the follower...

[malcolm]

I have always and still admire his grit and determination and while I generally believe him, part of the story only goes to show that he has always lacked moral fiber but is great at "heartfelt" apologies when he gets caught.

In my world, Sorries don't change much. It is what it is.



"......he made the New Hampshire state team and at the end-of-year awards, he and two buddies were each given a pass that would allow them toski free anywhere in the state through the following year.“We were high school kids, didn’t have a lot of money and one day during spring break, conditions got windy at the area where we were and we went to another. On theway out we sold our tickets, made $20 each. We drove to a different mountain, got our tickets, sold them, went to another and made another 20. Then in the lastplace, we got greedy, we went to the two ticket windows, one on the east side,the other on the west, and we got caught.“My dad came from Boston and brought me home. It was the most disappointed I’ve everseen him. We talked about it and went through all the people I had let down. Isaid I would write letters to each one. I sat at home and hand-wrote 40 letters.The sentiments were heartfelt and apologetic......”

You are a hard dude. I think I'm a pretty decent person and I done stuff especially as a young guy that makes the ski ticket debacle pale in comparison.
Few of us could live up to a full disclosure of our entire lives. It's very difficult for me to accept an evaluation of someones moral fiber by someone that doesn't know them personally and has never been in a similar situation. In my years of living and disscussing life and human behavior I've not found much use in mentioning morality or moral fiber and have generally found people that immediately gravitate to assessing anothers morality are usually impossible to sway by arguement, no matter the weight of the data. I think Tyler lied and cheated but I don't see any evidence of him being immoral, I see evidence of him being human. I hope he findes peace, I believe him, the story rings true, if he were making up stuff to be vindictive you would think it would be considerably more dramatic, other than how unorganized and half arsed it was, it was pretty much what I expected was going on.

[majorpat]

Most of us on this forum love biking but, really, we're just a bunch of local hackers compared to Lance, Hamilton etc. Before we judge them, we need to ask ourselves (as in the article) what would you do? To just ride on a team in the Tour? To actually be a contender? Man, I'd probably sell a kidney just to go watch the Tour!

I don't know who is lying and who is being truthful. But I do know that if I was a poor kid from Spain (or wherever) with a shot at the big time, it sure would be hard to say "no thanks" to doping, blood transfusions or whatever.

Not sayin' its right, I'm just saying I guess I see their side of it.

Pat

[G-Reg]

You are a hard dude. I think I'm a pretty decent person and I done stuff especially as a young guy that makes the ski ticket debacle pale in comparison.
Few of us could live up to a full disclosure of our entire lives. It's very difficult for me to accept an evaluation of someones moral fiber by someone that doesn't know them personally and has never been in a similar situation. In my years of living and disscussing life and human behavior I've not found much use in mentioning morality or moral fiber and have generally found people that immediately gravitate to assessing anothers morality are usually impossible to sway by arguement, no matter the weight of the data. I think Tyler lied and cheated but I don't see any evidence of him being immoral, I see evidence of him being human. I hope he findes peace, I believe him, the story rings true, if he were making up stuff to be vindictive you would think it would be considerably more dramatic, other than how unorganized and half arsed it was, it was pretty much what I expected was going on.

I'm not nearly as hard as I front on the internet and I agree with pretty much everything you typed. Lord knows I have done (and will do) some things I would not want my Mom or my kids to know about.

I just found it odd that he used that story as an example for how heartfelt his apology was/is. It the same exact story, do wrong, get caught, feel bad.

[maxdog]

most of us on this forum love biking but, really, we're just a bunch of local hackers compared to lance, hamilton etc. Before we judge them, we need to ask ourselves (as in the article) what would you do? To just ride on a team in the tour? To actually be a contender? Man, i'd probably sell a kidney just to go watch the tour!

I don't know who is lying and who is being truthful. But i do know that if i was a poor kid from spain (or wherever) with a shot at the big time, it sure would be hard to say "no thanks" to doping, blood transfusions or whatever.

Not sayin' its right, i'm just saying i guess i see their side of it.

Pat

+1

[coylifut]

the denials lack detail. the admissions are quite complete. yeah, he cheated, he's a doper and I believe what he says about himself and the others.

[Elefantino]

Somebody please start a fund to get Tyler a haircut he looks like a Dbag
The last fund for Tyler was bull****, just like his denials.

I like the guy. He seems to be, in person, like the little lost boy. Kind, warm, gentle, even a little sad ... but he's also a liar, and an accomplished one at that. One who managed to use that persona, real or put-on (I believe it's real) to try to convince the world of his innocence and suck money from people -- people who believed in him -- in the process.

I'm glad he has come forward now with what we all hope is, finally, the truth.

I'm also glad he's out of cycling. I wish the others like him who haven't written tell-alls and who are still controlling the sport would get out, too.

[fourflys]

I wish the others like him who haven't written tell-alls and who are still controlling the sport would get out, too.

yeah, like that will ever happen... face it, there will always be those that wish to get ahead by cheating the system and there will always be ways to do it... the riders 40 yrs ago were no different IMHO, if they would have had the means that Tyler, Jan, Lance, etc had they would have used them too...

[Elefantino]

yeah, like that will ever happen... face it, there will always be those that wish to get ahead by cheating the system and there will always be ways to do it... the riders 40 yrs ago were no different IMHO, if they would have had the means that Tyler, Jan, Lance, etc had they would have used them too...
There are ways. Start by not slapping wrists.

Positive test? Banned for life. From the sport. No coming back as a DS.

Start ... now.

...

Then again, you're right. Like THAT will ever happen.

[BumbleBeeDave]

TI like the guy. He seems to be, in person, like the little lost boy. Kind, warm, gentle, even a little sad ... but he's also a liar, and an accomplished one at that. One who managed to use that persona, real or put-on (I believe it's real) to try to convince the world of his innocence and suck money from people -- people who believed in him -- in the process.

I'm glad he has come forward now with what we all hope is, finally, the truth.

I'm also glad he's out of cycling. I wish the others like him who haven't written tell-alls and who are still controlling the sport would get out, too.

. . . and if he really is that way, then similar to Armstrong in manipulating people, just in a different way. But to try to be fair to him, some of that impression may be from his appearance. He looks a bit waifish. But I haven't met him in person except for once many years ago at an event in Boston where he spoke for a while and signed some autographs.

But he's not out of cycling. He's got a coaching business with another guy and apparently with his wife. I wasn't aware Tyler had married again but hopefully that's a positive sign.

BBD

[Germany_chris]

I'm not nearly as hard as I front on the internet and I agree with pretty much everything you typed. Lord knows I have done (and will do) some things I would not want my Mom or my kids to know about.

I just found it odd that he used that story as an example for how heartfelt his apology was/is. It the same exact story, do wrong, get caught, feel bad.

"A man should not play the coward to his deeds. He should not repudiate them once he has performed them. Pangs of conscience are indecent."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

[G-Reg]

"A man should not play the coward to his deeds. He should not repudiate them once he has performed them. Pangs of conscience are indecent."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"Does anybody really know the secret?
Or the combination for this life and where they keep it?
It's kinda sad when you don't know the meanin'
But everything happens for a reason"
-Frederick Durst

[Germany_chris]

"Does anybody really know the secret?
Or the combination for this life and where they keep it?
It's kinda sad when you don't know the meanin'
But everything happens for a reason"
-Frederick Durst

"Contentment preserves one even from catching cold. Has a woman who knew that she was well-dressed ever caught cold? No, not even when she had scarcely a rag to her back."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

[djg]

wow, heartfelt stuff... I like Tyler and really think he did the right thing for the right reasons (writing the book)... I really don't think he cared about the money or revenge when writing the book... I wish Tyler all the happiness he can have from here on out...

Maybe that's right. Or maybe all sorts of news about pro cycling (and track and field, and . . . ) should have reinforced a lesson I ought to have learned long, long ago: I don't really know those people, and how they race or throw a ball doesn't tell me much about the rest of them. Storytelling has this in common with bike racing: some folks suck at it, some folks are pretty good, and a small number are better than that.

[rwsaunders]

wow, heartfelt stuff... I like Tyler and really think he did the right thing for the right reasons (writing the book)... I really don't think he cared about the money or revenge when writing the book... I wish Tyler all the happiness he can have from here on out...

Not too many people write books as a hobby, so if profit is not a motivator, why not blog? With a niche as small as cycling, you'd probably have a better chance of delivering your message to more people who care about the subject matter.

[Rueda Tropical]

People get to hung up on motivation. Why he doped, why he lied, why he told the truth. Is he trying to make money, is he really sorry for what he did... or just that he got caught?

Doesn't matter why the dopers, doped or whether they were nice guys or jerks. It's the action and it's result that count.

If Hamilton makes a boat load of money, good for him. Whether he keeps the money or donates it to anti-doping efforts does not make what he wrote more or less true.

I don't care why the spill the beans anymore then why they doped. I just care about the result and the more that break the omerta the better. Any incentive that would increase the number of tell-alls would be good. WHether it's to make money on a book, get ahead of the bad publicity or avoid stiffer sanctions.

People do things that benefit society all the time for selfish reasons, its the positive driving force of capitalism.

[malcolm]

"A man should not play the coward to his deeds. He should not repudiate them once he has performed them. Pangs of conscience are indecent."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

I agree maybe not in the way Nietzsche intended or maybe so, I guess it's somewhat open for interpretation.

I don't think we should spend much time with regret or remose for past actions, within reason, if you've hurt someone you should pay the price, an apology or whatever the society you function in deems appropriate, but as a human you should move on. Your deeds both good and bad shape the person you become. It's if you learn from then that ultimately determines your worth. I think often times the best of us have some dirt on their shoes.

[scogordo]

OH TUGBOAT :( :rolleyes: :(

[Germany_chris]

I agree maybe not in the way Nietzsche intended or maybe so, I guess it's somewhat open for interpretation.

I don't think we should spend much time with regret or remose for past actions, within reason, if you've hurt someone you should pay the price, an apology or whatever the society you function in deems appropriate, but as a human you should move on. Your deeds both good and bad shape the person you become. It's if you learn from then that ultimately determines your worth. I think often times the best of us have some dirt on their shoes.

I'm probably the wrong person to address this but here is my take. Once you have done something don't stand up cry about it, wish it were different, seek forgiveness, write speak tell all's to clear you conscience etc. Put some thought into that action commit what ever action the deal with the fall out or lack of it like a grown up.

In the same book he makes the case that parties who make bad decisions are already sick and incapable of making correct ones. the quote goes something like "such and such party by committing such and such act will seal their end" He contends that they were doomed before they acted because only a doomed party could commit the act.

I personally have very little use for people that need to clear their conscience, or need to get watery, or pull a JV stunt. If you thought that doing what you were doing at the time was wrong and you proceeded to do it anyway you are not someone I want around me. I sort of goes with my philosophy of if your going to do something no matter the act DO IT don't play at it or do it to a certain point or to your "limits" succeed.

This is one of the things I like about Lance he doesn't try to be nice, he doesn't talk about how sorry he was for doping or even admit to it. He won the end he wanted it worse than anyone else and did what it took to make that happen there is nothing to admit or apologize for.

[Elefantino]

This is one of the things I like about Lance he doesn't try to be nice, he doesn't talk about how sorry he was for doping or even admit to it. He won the end he wanted it worse than anyone else and did what it took to make that happen there is nothing to admit or apologize for.

I wonder if that will always be the case.

Certainly, if the only evidence against him is hearsay -- other people's word against his -- he can maintain the a) charade or b) truth (your choice).

If there is physical evidence that can't be refuted, then an apology is going to ring really, really hollow.

[fourflys]

If you thought that doing what you were doing at the time was wrong and you proceeded to do it anyway you are not someone I want around me.

So you've never done something you knew was wrong at the time? Just saying, the only person I've ever known of with completely clean hands died on a cross more than two thousand years ago...

[Grant McLean]

Certainly, if the only evidence against him is hearsay -- other people's word against his -- he can maintain the a) charade or b) truth (your choice).

If there is physical evidence that can't be refuted, then an apology is going to ring really, really hollow.

I'm not sure why you're speculating any of the evidence is hearsay,
let alone all of it. There are clear legal definitions of words we toss
around that have specific meaning, often confused in conversation.

Eyewitness testimony is evidence, and not "hearsay".

"I saw his car hit a tree" is not hearsay, it's direct witness evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness

-g

[scogordo]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/nearly-20000-raised-for-paul-kimmages-defense-against-mcquaid-verbruggen_239766

[Rueda Tropical]

This is one of the things I like about Lance he doesn't try to be nice, he doesn't talk about how sorry he was for doping or even admit to it. He won the end he wanted it worse than anyone else and did what it took to make that happen there is nothing to admit or apologize for.

Yes, there is no shortage of characters in history who did what they had to do to succeed with out feeling the need to apologize for breaking the rules. Al Capone, John Gotti, Rafael Trujillo, Benito Mussolini, Josef Stalin... Unfortunately, it's a very long list. None of them had any patience for all those goody two shoes whiners who complained about their sociopathic behavior.

[Germany_chris]

So you've never done something you knew was wrong at the time? Just saying, the only person I've ever known of with completely clean hands died on a cross more than two thousand years ago...

The difference is I'm not sorry I did them.

[Germany_chris]

Yes, there is no shortage of characters in history who did what they had to do to succeed with out feeling the need to apologize for breaking the rules. Al Capone, John Gotti, Rafael Trujillo, Benito Mussolini, Josef Stalin... Unfortunately, it's a very long list. None of them had any patience for all those goody two shoes whiners who complained about their sociopathic behavior.

What's your point?

[Tony T]

Yes, there is no shortage of characters in history who did what they had to do to succeed with out feeling the need to apologize for breaking the rules.
Abraham Lincoln, Harry Truman, John Kennedy.....

[Tony T]

What's your point?

I think he's saying that a bicycle racer is in the same category of "Al Capone, John Gotti, Rafael Trujillo, Benito Mussolini, Josef Stalin..."

[Rueda Tropical]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/nearly-20000-raised-for-paul-kimmages-defense-against-mcquaid-verbruggen_239766

I threw in a few dollars for Kimmage. If he can get enough of a legal fund behind him he could make the 2 stooges at the UCI regret the decision to try and intimidate him.

I would imagine the Swiss courts have discovery and would have the parties under oath. The USADA will be releasing it's evidence by months end. This could get real interesting.

[Germany_chris]

Alexander Hamilton, George Patton, Douglas MacArthur

[Rueda Tropical]

What's your point?


My point is:

if it's OK to break the law and break the rules to win and those are admirable traits then you will have a failed society. Bribery, intimidation, disregard for the rule of law and believing the ends always justify the means are not a recipe for a healthy social compact.

[merlincustom1]

The difference is I'm not sorry I did them.

Are you a sociopath? (winky emoticon goes here).

[Rueda Tropical]

Abraham Lincoln, Harry Truman, John Kennedy.....

None of those made a career of subverting the law and then maintaining their position through intimidation, illegal networks and bribery.

[Elefantino]

I'm not sure why you're speculating any of the evidence is hearsay,
let alone all of it. There are clear legal definitions of words we toss
around that have specific meaning, often confused in conversation.

Eyewitness testimony is evidence, and not "hearsay".

"I saw his car hit a tree" is not hearsay, it's direct witness evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness

-g
You are absolutely right.

He'll deny eyewitnesses. I'm wondering what will happen if Tygart has the cycling equivalent of the Lewinsky blue dress.

Maybe he just keeps entering non-sanctioned tris.

[Tony T]

None of those made a career of subverting the law and then maintaining their position through intimidation, illegal networks and bribery.

Look up Abraham Lincoln and suspension of habeas corpus.
Lincoln did what was necessary to preserve the Union.
Since you now added "maintaining their position through intimidation, illegal networks and bribery" to your initial point of "who did what they had to do to succeed with out feeling the need to apologize for breaking the rules.", you've changed the 'rules', so Lincoln no longer applies.

[Germany_chris]

My point is:

if it's OK to break the law and break the rules to win and those are admirable traits then you will have a failed society. Bribery, intimidation, disregard for the rule of law and believing the ends always justify the means are not a recipe for a healthy social compact.

These are ever flexible and tailored to the people creating them..

It's only bribery if the person takes the money, and it's only intimidation if you are intimidated. The receivers of bribes and those intimidated generally have things to hide "playing coward to their deeds"

[Germany_chris]

You are absolutely right.

He'll deny eyewitnesses. I'm wondering what will happen if Tygart has the cycling equivalent of the Lewinsky blue dress.

Maybe he just keeps entering non-sanctioned tris.

He's already won, he has congress investing the investigator. The average person see the congressional action and the UCI doing a whole lot of nothing combined with zero failed drug tests and and Tygart and Company have zero credibility. The could produce a video of him shooting up and people would call it false.

[PQJ]

Rueda Tropical - Sometimes it's best just to not engage. It's a tactic that works as well with my 3 yo as it does on these here boards.

[Rueda Tropical]

rueda tropical - sometimes it's best just to not engage. It's a tactic that works as well with my 3 yo as it does on these here boards.

+1

[malcolm]

I'm probably the wrong person to address this but here is my take. Once you have done something don't stand up cry about it, wish it were different, seek forgiveness, write speak tell all's to clear you conscience etc. Put some thought into that action commit what ever action the deal with the fall out or lack of it like a grown up.

In the same book he makes the case that parties who make bad decisions are already sick and incapable of making correct ones. the quote goes something like "such and such party by committing such and such act will seal their end" He contends that they were doomed before they acted because only a doomed party could commit the act.

I personally have very little use for people that need to clear their conscience, or need to get watery, or pull a JV stunt. If you thought that doing what you were doing at the time was wrong and you proceeded to do it anyway you are not someone I want around me. I sort of goes with my philosophy of if your going to do something no matter the act DO IT don't play at it or do it to a certain point or to your "limits" succeed.

This is one of the things I like about Lance he doesn't try to be nice, he doesn't talk about how sorry he was for doping or even admit to it. He won the end he wanted it worse than anyone else and did what it took to make that happen there is nothing to admit or apologize for.

I think your first paragraph is the exact definition and I agree to an extent, confession to only clear your conscienous is self serving. If you've wronged someone and the apology is to make you both feel better it is always the right thing. Doing your time is also the right thing, but meaningless if you don't lear from it.

[jimcav]

.

In the same book he makes the case that parties who make bad decisions are already sick and incapable of making correct ones. the quote goes something like "such and such party by committing such and such act will seal their end" He contends that they were doomed before they acted because only a doomed party could commit the act.


are you talking about Nietzche's "book"? I haven't read secret race so have no idea...but i read too much Nietzche in school, and seems alot of what some were drawn to in Nietzche was his sister mucking with it

anyway, I can respect Lance's drive to win, but the whole "crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women" is old, and I think anachronistic.

Just because you have a goal, and focus, and achieve it, doesn't mean it is okay to deceive, cheat, and hurt others to do it: it isn't war. We even have rules of war, because war itself means horrorible collateral suffering. But war is accepted, not desired. terrorism, not so much. A view that immigration is detrimental is one thing, shooting 70+ kids on an island is another. These are extremes but make my point--not tryig to equate Lance to anything else, just saying I completely disagree that respecting the actions because someone believes they are justified/"right", doesn't mean it is or that when they get called on it that, that they get a pass because they "did what I needed to do", "stood their ground", "didn't think I had hit anyone"

I accept doping exists, if Lance was just another rider, this wouldn't be as compelling. But he wasn't, he was a rider/owner/huge influence; and his case importantly is exposing or highlighting the possibly corrupt actions at the owner and governing body level.

[e-RICHIE]

I accept doping exists, if Lance was just another rider, this wouldn't be as compelling. But he wasn't, he was a rider/owner/huge influence; and his case importantly is exposing or highlighting the possibly corrupt actions at the owner and governing body level.
For the sake of drama, we are left wondering if he won seven times, if at all, because he had a complete team full of dopers atmo.
Even if all he ever ingested was food rather than PEDs, his victories are worthless in the scheme of things. That he became and
somewhat remains an inspiration is another story.

[Germany_chris]

are you talking about Nietzche's "book"? I haven't read secret race so have no idea...but i read too much Nietzche in school, and seems alot of what some were drawn to in Nietzche was his sister mucking with it

anyway, I can respect Lance's drive to win, but the whole "crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women" is old, and I think anachronistic.

Just because you have a goal, and focus, and achieve it, doesn't mean it is okay to deceive, cheat, and hurt others to do it: it isn't war. We even have rules of war, because war itself means horrorible collateral suffering. But war is accepted, not desired. terrorism, not so much. A view that immigration is detrimental is one thing, shooting 70+ kids on an island is another. These are extremes but make my point--not tryig to equate Lance to anything else, just saying I completely disagree that respecting the actions because someone believes they are justified/"right", doesn't mean it is or that when they get called on it that, that they get a pass because they "did what I needed to do", "stood their ground", "didn't think I had hit anyone"

I accept doping exists, if Lance was just another rider, this wouldn't be as compelling. But he wasn't, he was a rider/owner/huge influence; and his case importantly is exposing or highlighting the possibly corrupt actions at the owner and governing body level.

He was a very prolific author, but that particular book was "Twilight of the Idols"

I don't know why exposing Lance is so important to you, it will change nothing in the technology race. Cyclists are going to dope and silly boys will continue to chase them and we'll go on our merry way like we have for 100 years.

[harryblack]

Look up Clement Vallandigham too... I love A. Lincoln btw, think Tyler is an untrustworthy, deeply unlikable creep who enriched himself just as long and remorselessly as he could... pre-Lance, LA-era, Riis, Phonak...

oh but then, finally, he ran out of options and decided to "redeem" himself... with a premium priced internet coaching biz shuck to hustle too... I have no issues with folks being glad Tyler likely revealed SOME truths (+ more lies + more evasions), finally, but...

the 'affection,' some people are expressing for him is truly strange.


Tugboat is the only redeemer!!

Look up Abraham Lincoln and suspension of habeas corpus.
Lincoln did what was necessary to preserve the Union.
Since you now added "maintaining their position through intimidation, illegal networks and bribery" to your initial point of "who did what they had to do to succeed with out feeling the need to apologize for breaking the rules.", you've changed the 'rules', so Lincoln no longer applies.

[jimcav]

He was a very prolific author, but that particular book was "Twilight of the Idols"

I don't know why exposing Lance is so important to you, it will change nothing in the technology race. Cyclists are going to dope and silly boys will continue to chase them and we'll go on our merry way like we have for 100 years.

Like I said I respect his drive and cycling. It IS important to me that the corrupt system and wrong actions get exposed. I'd be happy if they cut him a deal and went after the wider, higher level system that may be involved (other DS, team owners, UCI etc). I know it is just cycling, but that is part of the Olympics, and I believe it is important that the best athletes from all the nations are competing based upon their training and ability, not enhanced by doping. hated it when the cold war let the east germans carry on as they did, etc It isn't as big a deal as say a corrupt or racist police department or various other scandals, but i think society is better and moves forward when corruption and cheating is rooted out and NOT tolerated. I'd care a lot less if cycling was out of IOC, but i would still care. If my boys turn out to be good at some sport, whatever it is, I don't want it organized so that in order to participate at the highest level, they have to dope. It may be common, but it isn't safe. I see people all the time with legitimate medical issues on medicines, where they had a reaction or an interaction with another medication etc. most resolve, some have permanent (and rarely fatal) consequences

[Germany_chris]

Like I said I respect his drive and cycling. It IS important to me that the corrupt system and wrong actions get exposed. I'd be happy if they cut him a deal and went after the wider, higher level system that may be involved (other DS, team owners, UCI etc). I know it is just cycling, but that is part of the Olympics, and I believe it is important that the best athletes from all the nations are competing based upon their training and ability, not enhanced by doping. hated it when the cold war let the east germans carry on as they did, etc It isn't as big a deal as say a corrupt or racist police department or various other scandals, but i think society is better and moves forward when corruption and cheating is rooted out and NOT tolerated. I'd care a lot less if cycling was out of IOC, but i would still care. If my boys turn out to be good at some sport, whatever it is, I don't want it organized so that in order to participate at the highest level, they have to dope. It may be common, but it isn't safe. I see people all the time with legitimate medical issues on medicines, where they had a reaction or an interaction with another medication etc. most resolve, some have permanent (and rarely fatal) consequences

Thats fine but I'm completely indifferent as to whether they doped or "cheated". They were there to win a bike race, you were either first or you lost and are lost to history.

I think society is better an moves forward when it reevaluates what is important and more things become tolerated. The war on drugs is a perfect example of intolerance of corruption and cheating. It has not effected the flow of illicit substances to the states and never will. If we were to take control of the market the associated crime and dependence problems will decrease.

Fränk Schleck proved that the anti-doping efforts are for naught. The peloton isn't cleaner that it was in the 90's it's more sophisticated than it was then. If WADA and USADA pursued the entire peloton with the same vigor that it pursues Lance then I would have no issue, but thats not the case.

Tygart is just another wanna-be cop looking for headlines.

[G-Reg]

....I'm wondering what will happen if Tygart has the cycling equivalent of the Lewinsky blue dress...

Finally a comparison where both events impact on the greater good of the world is comparable!


Lance deserves the same punishment as Slick Willy. Make him live with Hillary for a few years.

[malcolm]

Finally a comparison where both events impact on the greater good of the world is comparable!


Lance deserves the same punishment as Slick Willy. Make him live with Hillary for a few years.

You sir are an evil man, no human deserves that

[jimcav]

Thats fine but I'm completely indifferent as to whether they doped or "cheated". They were there to win a bike race, you were either first or you lost and are lost to history.

I think society is better an moves forward when it reevaluates what is important and more things become tolerated. The war on drugs is a perfect example of intolerance of corruption and cheating. It has not effected the flow of illicit substances to the states and never will. If we were to take control of the market the associated crime and dependence problems will decrease.

Fränk Schleck proved that the anti-doping efforts are for naught. The peloton isn't cleaner that it was in the 90's it's more sophisticated than it was then. If WADA and USADA pursued the entire peloton with the same vigor that it pursues Lance then I would have no issue, but thats not the case.

Tygart is just another wanna-be cop looking for headlines.

Yes it is a question of resources and priority. Everyone has a cause, and they are not the same cause. I think as a nation (USA) we can't agree on what to prioritize. I can say education, someone else says security, or environment, and in the end there are so many goals, very few get achieved.

Our culture is skewed toward entertainment, making millionnaires out of reality tv idiots and ball players and cyclists. I'm a product of it, but do try to push bakc, but what else might I have achieved if I took away the hours and hours of TV (and forum time:). Still I think I get more out of these cycling forums as far as hearing different perspectives and some sound advice, than from most TV I watch. have to admit i like modern marvels and breaking bad too much.

I see "wars" on anything much the way I think of the vietnam "war" after years ago reading "a bright and shining lie". It is a bright shining lie, told over and over and sold to the public: War on drugs, terror, war on poverty, it is PR that creates a myth and then an industry that depends on itself. It might even start as a noble impulse, but soon it exploits something very deep in out collective psyche--Christian charity (poverty), our maternal/paternal instincts (drugs); our very way of life and democratic heritage (terror)

We focus on the wrong things. I am looking out my window at hundreds of cars, all parked at the same building. I will ride home past them as they funnel toward the highway: 1 car pool lane, 3 regular lanes.
Wrong priorities--it is putting billions/trillions into the wrong place. it's why China does scare me--they do prioritize, and do it. they may have the resources to pull it off before their population starts to fragment into different interest groups and the parts destoy the whole.

well, crazy thread drift there i guess--

[Tony T]

btw, think Tyler is an untrustworthy, deeply unlikable creep who enriched himself just as long and remorselessly as he could... pre-Lance, LA-era, Riis, Phonak...
oh but then, finally, he ran out of options and decided to "redeem" himself... with a premium priced internet coaching biz shuck to hustle too..

And he still calls himself "an Olympic Champion" on his Web site.

.

[e-RICHIE]

And he still calls himself "an Olympic Champion" on his Web site.

.

Tony - as someone who has a site and also a life away from it, it's almost impossible to comb every page and
every cached version of every page and stay current. Well, it's not impossible, but it is a full time job atmo.

[93legendti]

Times have changed

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=16865&page=2

[G-Reg]

"Contentment preserves one even from catching cold. Has a woman who knew that she was well-dressed ever caught cold? No, not even when she had scarcely a rag to her back."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

"Now all the critics wanna hit it
***** can, how we did it
Just because they don't get it
But I'll stay fitted
New era committed"
-Frederick Durst

[Tony T]

Tony - as someone who has a site and also a life away from it, it's almost impossible to comb every page and
every cached version of every page and stay current. Well, it's not impossible, but it is a full time job atmo.

I see your point, but this is in his "About" page. I'll email him to let him know.

.

[e-RICHIE]

I see your point, but this is in his "About" page. I'll email him to let him know.

.

Folks assume too much about websites, their ABOUT pages, and otherwise.
There is shti all over the internet that would have to be "corrected" if one
was to apply the same standard atmo. If you know the truth, the site has
no relevance.

[Tony T]

Folks assume too much about websites, their ABOUT pages, and otherwise.
There is shti all over the internet that would have to be "corrected" if one
was to apply the same standard atmo. If you know the truth, the site has
no relevance.

True, I shouldn't hold him to a standard higher than the NY Times, who in their book review of "The Secret Race" (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/books/the-secret-race-by-tyler-hamilton-and-daniel-coyle.html?_r=1) said "...impatient readers can turn to “The Secret Race” by Tyler Hamilton, an Olympic gold medalist and one-time key teammate of Mr. Armstrong’s who has since confessed to cheating and lying himself." ;)

[Grant McLean]

True, I shouldn't hold him to a standard higher than the NY Times, who in their book review of "The Secret Race" (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/books/the-secret-race-by-tyler-hamilton-and-daniel-coyle.html?_r=1) said "...impatient readers can turn to “The Secret Race” by Tyler Hamilton, an Olympic gold medalist and one-time key teammate of Mr. Armstrong’s who has since confessed to cheating and lying himself." ;)

Technically speaking, Tyler hasn't officially been stripped of the medal yet,
he is the Olympic Gold medalist until the medal is reassigned.
Shouldn't due process be respected??

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/london/cycling/story/2012-08-09/ioc-to-strip-tyler-hamilton-of-medal/56897362/1

[e-RICHIE]

True, I shouldn't hold him to a standard higher than the NY Times, who in their book review of "The Secret Race" (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/books/the-secret-race-by-tyler-hamilton-and-daniel-coyle.html?_r=1) said "...impatient readers can turn to “The Secret Race” by Tyler Hamilton, an Olympic gold medalist and one-time key teammate of Mr. Armstrong’s who has since confessed to cheating and lying himself." ;)

Jesus, Tony. He (Tyler) is an Olympic Gold Medalist and he is returning it (or already has atmo). It's no different than The Manchurian Candidate saying he won the tour seven times, or having the accolade assigned to him, and then coming out the loser that he is - stripped. At the end of the day, stating it both ways would be correct as long as it was in context.

Man, I will be glad when this saga finally is replaced with Lance's tell-all, the one that will top all Best-Seller's lists for the next 4,000,000 years. Because, you know, when he finally does come clean, he'll not only be the sports hero he thinks he is now, he'll be a famous author in his own right,

[malcolm]

Jesus, Tony. He (Tyler) is an Olympic Gold Medalist and he is returning it (or already has atmo). It's no different than The Manchurian Candidate saying he won the tour seven times, or having the accolade assigned to him, and then coming out the loser that he is - stripped. At the end of the day, stating it both ways would be correct as long as it was in context.

Man, I will be glad when this saga finally is replaced with Lance's tell-all, the one that will top all Best-Seller's lists for the next 4,000,000 years. Because, you know, when he finally does come clean, he'll not only be the sports hero he thinks he is now, he'll be a famous author in his own right,

e-Richie, I'll split that book with you. I don't want to contribute to his income but I want to read it, so maybe I can live with half

[Tony T]

Technically speaking, Tyler hasn't officially been stripped of the medal yet,
he is the Olympic Gold medalist until the medal is reassigned.
Shouldn't due process be respected??

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/london/cycling/story/2012-08-09/ioc-to-strip-tyler-hamilton-of-medal/56897362/1

I'm certain that he said that he sent it back, and read reports that it was officially stripped. There were a number of reports of this last month.
IOC to strip Hamilton of 2004 Olympic gold medal (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ioc-to-strip-hamilton-of-2004-olympic-gold-medal)
The IOC executive board will reportedly meet on Friday to reassign the medals from the Athens Games time trial, rewarding gold to Viatcheslav Ekimov (Russia), silver to Bobby Julich (USA) and bronze to Michael Rogers (Australia). The action is prompted by the IOC's approaching eight-year statute of limitations deadline.

This story was from August 10th, so that Friday has come and gone. Do you know for a fact that it was not reassigned? If so, then the IOC missed the SOL that expired the end of August.

[e-RICHIE]

e-Richie, I'll split that book with you. I don't want to contribute to his income but I want to read it, so maybe I can live with half

In reality, by the time he does grow the stone he needs to come clean (no pun intended atmo) there will be no more books.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::cool:
:cool::cool::cool:
:cool::cool:;)

[Grant McLean]

This story was from August 10th, so that Friday has come and gone. Do you know for a fact that it was not reassigned? If so, then the IOC missed the SOL that expired the end of August.


I don't know how the process of how reassignment works.

I looked here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_at_the_2004_Summer_Olympics#Road and it still says Tyler won gold.

Looking further, there are certainly reports the process was complete and he has been stripped:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/09/us-oly-cycl-hamilton-gold-day-idUSBRE87815J20120809

Apparently the process doesn't take long!

edit: To clarify, I was indicating that lots of the stories in the media announced he "would be" stripped
without outlining the process, or indicating when it would be taking place. Obviously, other stories
had more specific language. It's an interesting case study on the words chosen by the media.
Same can be said for the announcement that Lance had been "stripped" of his 7 Tour wins. It can be
very confusing unless you dig further to actually get a story that explains the specifics.

-g

[93legendti]

I'm certain that he said that he sent it back, and read reports that it was officially stripped. There were a number of reports of this last month.
IOC to strip Hamilton of 2004 Olympic gold medal (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ioc-to-strip-hamilton-of-2004-olympic-gold-medal)
The IOC executive board will reportedly meet on Friday to reassign the medals from the Athens Games time trial, rewarding gold to Viatcheslav Ekimov (Russia), silver to Bobby Julich (USA) and bronze to Michael Rogers (Australia). The action is prompted by the IOC's approaching eight-year statute of limitations deadline.

This story was from August 10th, so that Friday has come and gone. Do you know for a fact that it was not reassigned? If so, then the IOC missed the SOL that expired the end of August.

According to this May 21, 2011 article, he did: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576335280289868842.http://m.upi.com/story/UPI-42831286648769/
He was "stripped" of the title on August 12, 2012, per CNN.

[Elefantino]

In reality, by the time he does grow the stone he needs to come clean (no pun intended atmo) there will be no more books.
No, there won't be.

Instead, it will be beamed into your brain through the Nygma device.

And Lance will own part of Nygma Corp.

[e-RICHIE]

No, there won't be.

Instead, it will be beamed into your brain through the Nygma device.

And Lance will own part of Nygma Corp.

The screenplay from Rollerball never seemed so correct or appropriate atmo.

[Germany_chris]

"Now all the critics wanna hit it
***** can, how we did it
Just because they don't get it
But I'll stay fitted
New era committed"
-Frederick Durst

The issue with Mr. Durst and Limp Bizkit was he just didn't know who to be angry at so he got angry with society and it's representatives.

"I know why you wanna hate me
Cuz hate is all the world has even seen lately
And now you wanna hate me
Cuz hate is all the world has even seen lately
Does anybody really know the secret
Or the combination for this life and where they keep it"

-Frederick Durst (from the same song)

It would have been better to aim his anger at the real culprit:

Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think.
-Arthur Schopenhauer

"Sins" are indispensable to every society organized on an ecclesiastical basis; they are the only reliable weapons of power; the priest lives upon sins; it is necessary to him that there be "sinning."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.
-Karl Marx

This woman that he seeks
Suicide visionary. Death reveller. Rake. Rapist.
Gravedigger. Earthmover. Lifef**ker. Jesu.
You scooped the pits of Auschwitz
The soil of Treblinka is rich in your guilt
The sorrow of your tradition
Your stupid humility is the crown of thorn we all must wear.
For you. Ha. Master. Master of gore. Enigma. Stigma. Stigmata. Errata. Eraser.
The cross is the mast of our oppression.
You fly there, vain flag.
You carry it, wear it on your back, Lord. Your back.
Enola is your gaiety.
Suffer little children (to come unto me)
Suffer in that horror. Hirohorror. Hirrohiro. Hiroshimmer. Shimmerhiro.
Hiroshima. Hiroshima. Hiroshima. Hiroshima.
The bodies are your delight

-Crass

You say, 'God loves you. Come and buy the Good News'
Then you buy the president and swimming pools
If Jesus don't save 'til we're lining your pockets
God must be dead if you're alive

Circus-tent con-men and Southern belle bunnies
Milk your emotions then they steal your money
It's the new dark ages with the fascists toting bibles
Cheap nostalgia for the Salem Witch Trials

Stodgy ayatollahs in their dobble-knit ties
Burn lots of books so they can feed you their lies
Masturbating with a flag and a bible
God must be dead if you're alive
You don't want abortions, you want battered children
You want to ban the pill as if that solves the problem
Now you wanna force us to pray in school
God must be dead if you're such a fool

You're planning for a war with or without Iran
Building a police state with the Ku Klux Klan
Pissed at your neighbour? Don't bother to nag
Pick up the phone and turn in a fag

-Dead Kennedys

Laws were created tablet like they are not there to guide society there are there to punish. Government derives it's power from god, because I refuse to accept gods tenants of morals I refuse to accept governments authority to make me obey said morals. Government has no right to the death penalty, has no right to tell me whom I can marry, has no right to tell me what I can and cannot ingest etc. These are perceived "right" (death penality) and wrong (drugs, homosexuality) because god says they are.

Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

[tuxbailey]

e-Richie, I'll split that book with you. I don't want to contribute to his income but I want to read it, so maybe I can live with half

Library.

[dana_e]

T-Shirts still available:

http://www.cafepress.com/believetyler

What a crock.

The US guys need to do it Euro style

You get popped, just come clean, serve the 2 years and pull the mea culpa

He is late to the party

[whforrest]

Wow, you can purchase a bib stating I believe Tyler. Perhaps this site needs to be taken down? A little twisted.

Anyways, I commend the people who have come clean whatever their motivation might be. I've fully accepted the doping culture as it was, not what I wanted it to be.

Regarding Lance..........like many of us we loved watching this guy hammer. He was our boy. Intimidating the euros with Hinault panache. So I have to thank him for the entertainment. And that's what it was. But Lance branded himself into something more than a good cyclist. With Nike's help he crafted this global image that he was one of the good guys. The victim in a ruthless world. He created a global marketing campaign that he was clean. Now I'm just tired of his Bullsh^#*@. He wasn't quiet about it like Ulrich or Kloden. He twisted it around turning his so called innocence into a campaign to fight for his rights. "People always ask me what I'm on, I'm on my bike 5 hours a day, whatt are you on? When I first saw this commercial I jumped off the sofa with my fist pumped in the air,.................go LANCE! It felt so right. Perhaps Lance wouldn't be so annoying is he was more like Hincapie. It's just he was so annoying about how innocent he was. Lance is/was more powerful and influential than many of us gave him credit for.

just a few thoughts, Bill

[Tony T]

Wow, you can purchase a bib stating I believe Tyler. Perhaps this site needs to be taken down? A little twisted.

Depends what you believe ;)

[jchasse]

Certainly, teenagers do silly and immature things on the spur of the moment, and that's only natural. The quoted passage, however, imply more of a calculating cunning mind aimed specifically to defraud. For a teenager that is a disturbing trait.

^^ this ^^

I've got no particularly deep feelings against the guy, but that episode above, as well as at least one in his book seem to indicate the guy's been dishonest and a bit of a shceister his whole life.

The answer to this question in the OP's linked article...

"I sat at home and hand-wrote 40 letters.The sentiments were heartfelt and apologetic. How come a kid like that ended up being a sports cheat?"

...may be pretty obvious - the kid was always a cheat?

People who are genuinely honerable don't need to run around saying so.

[coylifut]

^^ this ^^

I've got no particularly deep feelings against the guy, but that episode above, as well as at least one in his book seem to indicate the guy's been dishonest and a bit of a shceister his whole life.

The answer to this question in the OP's linked article...

"I sat at home and hand-wrote 40 letters.The sentiments were heartfelt and apologetic. How come a kid like that ended up being a sports cheat?"

...may be pretty obvious - the kid was always a cheat?

People who are genuinely honerable don't need to run around saying so.

so, when you read the book, do you believe the story he's telling. or is he making it all up to make money?

[jchasse]

so, when you read the book, do you believe the story he's telling. or is he making it all up to make money?

Well, I certainly don't know the guy, or any of the other charachters in the story, so my guess is worth less than $.02.

But I believe he's mostly telling the truth, and that writing the book may be at least partly for catharsis. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a bit more "crooked" than those he raced against. I'm just not buying his "I'm a much more honorable guy than most people" schtick. And I don't think for a second he's beyond embellishing (read: lying) to make a point, whether he knows he's lying (and "trying hard" to do it well, as he apparently admits) or because he's convinced himself he's holier than most of us...

[Grant McLean]

I'm just not buying his "I'm a much more honorable guy than most people" schtick.

Tyler has never said anything of the sort. Quite the contrary.

He went out of his way during the 60 minutes interview to repeatedly
return the conversation to his own culpability in the doping, and specifically
said over and over that it's not about pointing the finger at Lance.
He repeats multiple times that he himself did what Lance is accused of.

There is no obfuscation by Tyler. I've certainly never read anything he's
said that gives me the impression he thinks any of this makes him look more
honourable than anyone else. I get that people don't like what Tyler did,
but I seriously believe it's a mistake to characterize these people as
the bad guys. They did bad things. They are good people. I realize
some people have a hard time with that concept. Maybe if you have
someone in your family who has really 'effed up you understand.

Hate the game, not the players. There are plenty of people responsible
for the doping situation in the cycling food chain that are still happy that
the general public points their finger of blame only at the riders.
Don't fall for it.

-g

[LegendRider]

Tyler has never said anything of the sort. Quite the contrary.

He went out of his way during the 60 minutes interview to repeatedly
return the conversation to his own culpability in the doping, and specifically
said over and over that it's not about pointing the finger at Lance.
He repeats multiple times that he himself did what Lance is accused of.

There is no obfuscation by Tyler. I've certainly never read anything he's
said that gives me the impression he thinks any of this makes him look more
honourable than anyone else. I get that people don't like what Tyler did,
but I seriously believe it's a mistake to characterize these people as
the bad guys. They did bad things. They are good people. I realize
some people have a hard time with that concept. Maybe if you have
someone in your family who has really 'effed up you understand.

Hate the game, not the players. There are plenty of people responsible
for the doping situation in the cycling food chain that are still happy that
the general public points their finger of blame only at the riders.
Don't fall for it.

-g

Well stated.

[G-Reg]

....
but I seriously believe it's a mistake to characterize these people as
the bad guys. They did bad things. They are good people. I realize
some people have a hard time with that concept. Maybe if you have
someone in your family who has really 'effed up you understand.

Hate the game, not the players.



Lance in an exception.

He is a complete DB and really is one of the bad guys

[esldude]

Willful Blindness: Why We Ignore the Obvious at Our Peril by Margaret Heffernan which is a book I am currently reading.

Pertinent to this situation with the doping. How such a thing can be ignored by say the UCI, the cyclists and they seem not to know when they had to know. Some of the research covered is very pertinent to what happens to the cyclists.

One section covers conforming. A few different experiments are described. One is where people look at 3 lines where on is quite clearly longer than another. They are asked are these the same length yes or no. This is done one person at a time, and everyone gets it. But when repeated with 3 people and two are actually plants who say they are all the same, the third person quite often also says they are the same. When done with several people at once with all but one being a plant well over an overwhelming majority say they are the same length when all the other said they were the same.

A more sophisticated version was done. This involved 3 D shapes while people's brain was being monitored by fMRI scans. By seeing where in the brain activity occurred they could tell if some conscious perception of the truth was covered up or if the actual perception by the brain was altered. What they found was when several others before a test subject gave an account differing from reality, the test subject actually perceived things differently. They could not explain afterwards seeing things other than the fraudulent way they responded.

In yet another, smoke was piped into a room where subjects waited not realizing this was the real test. One person would get up and check on the smoke in less than two minutes in all cases. 3 or more people all test subjects took more than twice as long before investigating. In another where a dozen were filling out forms while smoke began to drift in, usually no one would look for several minutes even as they coughed and had trouble seeing for it. Conformity is just part of humans adaptation to living in groups.

Considering these highly motivated athletes living in something of isolation in some ways and getting on teams that trained and competed together. I don't think it is too hard to see how conformity and a willful blindness, coupled with getting a shot at your dreams or agreeing to let them go and the money that could bring one, would lead a considerable number of people to do what most of the elite cyclists did when they doped. Not everyone would, and they aren't honorable for having done so. What they are is very human. Maybe almost super human in their field, but so ordinary in all the other ways of regular everyday humans.

The important part is for the UCI to realize what they did and did not do that let this happen. Own up to the facts as they are, and really straighten it out. I can cut the riders at least some slack. The other people had power, money and influence they craved and kept at the expense of the riders to some extent.

[fourflys]

pretty much gotta go with Grant 100% here...

Tyler has never said anything of the sort. Quite the contrary.

He went out of his way during the 60 minutes interview to repeatedly
return the conversation to his own culpability in the doping, and specifically
said over and over that it's not about pointing the finger at Lance.
He repeats multiple times that he himself did what Lance is accused of.

There is no obfuscation by Tyler. I've certainly never read anything he's
said that gives me the impression he thinks any of this makes him look more
honourable than anyone else. I get that people don't like what Tyler did,
but I seriously believe it's a mistake to characterize these people as
the bad guys. They did bad things. They are good people. I realize
some people have a hard time with that concept. Maybe if you have
someone in your family who has really 'effed up you understand.

Hate the game, not the players. There are plenty of people responsible
for the doping situation in the cycling food chain that are still happy that
the general public points their finger of blame only at the riders.
Don't fall for it.

-g

[fourflys]

I suspect you will make an exception in Lance's case.

Maybe if he bought a couple of bikes from you he could get a little love to.

yeah, that's a constructive argument... :rolleyes:

[jchasse]

Tyler has never said anything of the sort. Quite the contrary.
-g

Wait, what?


Maybe I need to re-read… uh, everything?

You may know the guy, for all I know. (I realize you know bikes and the related "ecoshpere") But have you read his book with an honest ear, open to how it actually sounds? Hell, just read the link referenced in the OP.

From it:

“No, Tyler Hamilton wanted us to understand he would not take drugs because he was a good man. He would say: “Anyone who knows me knows I could never do that.”

“When I lied I did try to tug on people’s heart strings. It’s sad. I’m not proud of it. I tried hard to lie well, I guess. I was very passionate about denying it. Being seen as honourable, that’s always been the most important thing to me. Up until cycling got dirty for me, I was a pretty honourable guy.”

His book just gives me the same vibe…it all sounds like ’the Hamiltons are the most honourable people around, how dare you accuse me of doping’. Then, when busted for bald-faced, crazy assed lying (see: vanishing twin)…’well, we’z honourable people, so it wasn’t my fault I did it. It was a product of the system. (see: 'how come a kid like that became a sports cheat")

Whatever. I think the system is probably just like he says it is. I’m just not buying the ‘I’m a victim, but an honourable one’ thing. That’s how it comes across to me. YMMV.

Note: single quotes above indicate chit I made up.

on edit: and to be clear, I like the book, and believe the guy's overall story.

[Ray]

IIRC, he said something in the book like he'd tried to lead a pretty honorable life OTHER THAN the doping and the big lie associated with it. And he was coming clean not because it absolved him of anything but for the personal relief of not carrying this huge lie around with him everyday anymore. I bought it.

-Ray

[Grant McLean]

Wait, what?


I really used the wrong word, causing a misunderstanding.

What I meant is that post confession, Tyler isn't being holier than thou.
I mistakenly used the word "never" which was the wrong word to use,
since clearly I am referring only to the timeframe since he confessed.

Obviously he was acting like a lying sack of sH*t before that.

-g