Campy BB Gap

[Tony T]

I have a 1mm gap in my BB. Reinstalled (flush w/Loctite), and after 200mi, gap returned.

Has anyone seen anything like this? Possible causes? Should I be concerned? (gap is small)

[lhuerta]

Tony, tell us more. What type of frame? Which Loctite and Primer did you use? How long did you let it set? What tools did you use?

If you have a carbon frame and you didn't use either Locite 609 or 641 TOGETHER with Loctite 7471 primer/activator, set with a bearing press and let dry for at least 24 hours, then the likelihood of cups slipping is very high.

Lou

[Tony T]

Its a carbon frame. The repair was done by a LBS with green loctite. He let it dry for 24hrs in a press. The BB is a Campy PF30-46. Loctite is not supposed to be needed in initial install (also done by LBS), but was used in re-install as a possible fix.

No creaking. No problems that I can see or feel, so I'm wondering if this small 1mm gap is ok, or if I should return to the LBS.

Also, 1mm gap is on front end of bb, on read end it's flush to frame (If you look closely you can see this in the photo).

[FlashUNC]

It looks cross threaded...

[Tony T]

It's a PF BB (but, yes, it does look like a cross-threaded BB)

[FlashUNC]

Have the threads been chased? Basically start from scratch on it?

[Tony T]

PF BB = Press Fit = No Threads.

[FlashUNC]

Ah ha. My love of square taper and ultra torque is showing.

[Fishbike]

I just noticed a similar issue with a Veloce BB on a Pelizzoli steel frame. My gap is a couple of mm and I believe threw the FD out of whack. Curious about the responses about whether it must or should be fixed now.

[thwart]

I just noticed a similar issue with a Veloce BB on a Pelizzoli steel frame. My gap is a couple of mm and I believe threw the FD out of whack. Curious about the responses about whether it must or should be fixed now.
With an Italian threaded BB, any friction between the crank and bottom bracket may gradually allow the pedaling action to un-thread the BB. If it's an older square taper BB, it was either not installed correctly, or there's some interference somehow between the BB axle and driveside cup.

I'd pull it now and check things out. Some would then re-install the BB with teflon tape and grease, others with Loctite.

[rustychisel]

With an Italian threaded BB, any friction between the crank and bottom bracket may gradually allow the pedaling action to un-thread the BB. If it's an older square taper BB, it was either not installed correctly, or there's some interference somehow between the BB axle and driveside cup.

I'd pull it now and check things out. Some would then re-install the BB with teflon tape and grease, others with Loctite.

These are press fit shells for Ultra Torque cranks, no threads. IMO it's more about the frame in which they reside than the bearing fittings.

Has the frame been properly prepared, checked for true and square BB faces? With these cups anything a trifle out of square will allow movement of the cups - they'll shift under load.

[brando]

Oh boy bb30/pf30. :banana: Loctite or plumbers tape are the new normal. :banana:
I didn't get good results from my LBS with the Loctite solution, tho they later admitted they didn't have the activator. Supposedly works the same just takes longer to set? Anyway, they used plumbers tape and assembly paste and I still have the 1mm gap. As you say, it rides better but will it last? My LBS theorizes that the campy rubber o-ring is the reason for the gap/movement. That doesn't sound right to me. I can't believe this is the future.

[choke]

These are press fit shells for Ultra Torque cranks, no threads. IMO it's more about the frame in which they reside than the bearing fittings.

Has the frame been properly prepared, checked for true and square BB faces? With these cups anything a trifle out of square will allow movement of the cups - they'll shift under load.That would be my first guess as well...the BB isn't faced properly.

[lhuerta]

The ONLY solution is Locite 609 or 641 TOGETHER with Loctite 7471 primer/activator, set with a bearing press and let dry for at least 24 hours. The issue U are experience has been discussed extensively on Cervelo forum related to press fit adapters in BBRight BB and also on Weighweenies.com in relation to the BB30 pressfit cups u have. Loctite 609 or 641 is also recommended by Cannondale and other manufacturers for proper installation of press fit BB cups or adapters.
Lou

[Peter B]

Because I believe the proper installation of a BB should require threads, grease and a wrench.

What problem has been solved by press fit BB's and is the 'solution' preferable to the original 'problem'?

[monkeybanana86]

Because I believe the proper installation of a BB should require threads, grease and a wrench.

What problem has been solved by press fit BB's and is the 'solution' preferable to the original 'problem'?

I run both and am a fan of both.

in terms of design and manufacturing I think press fit (& 2 piece cranks) is pretty clean. just weld your frame, face, and ream :)

this reminds me of quill vs. threadless.

[Tony T]

These are press fit shells for Ultra Torque cranks, no threads. IMO it's more about the frame in which they reside than the bearing fittings.

Has the frame been properly prepared, checked for true and square BB faces? With these cups anything a trifle out of square will allow movement of the cups - they'll shift under load.

If the frame BB faces is not true and square, can it be repaired? If so, how?

.

[FlashUNC]

If the frame BB faces is not true and square, can it be repaired? If so, how?

.

Possible to ream material off to square it back up?

I've already shown ignorance in this thread, so just spit-ballin at this point.

[malcolm]

Because I believe the proper installation of a BB should require threads, grease and a wrench.

What problem has been solved by press fit BB's and is the 'solution' preferable to the original 'problem'?

They have now taken something easy to do at home and required 3rd party involvement. Not many folks I know have presses at home.

[Tony T]

They have now taken something easy to do at home and required 3rd party involvement. Not many folks I know have presses at home.

Once installed, a PF should not need to be removed to service the bearings. (similar to the old-style headsets. A press was needed to install, but the headset has a very long life).

This is looking more like a frame problem.

[lhuerta]

Tony, this is not a frame problem. In your original post you mentioned that the cup was originally flush and then the gap reappeared....you can eliminate frame facing issue if they were indeed flush upon original install. The problem you are experiencing is a VERY SIMPLE and VERY COMMON install issue...simply follow the already posted Loctite instructions.

Just curious, have you tried uninstalling your cranks and checking the firmness of the cup?...I suspect that when you do the cup will fall right into your hand.

Lastly, if you keep riding your bike with a loose cup you will begin grinding away the internal part of your BB shell, yielding a larger ID and thus risk that no press-fit cups will ever fit.

Install those cups correctly and be done with it.

Lou

[malcolm]

Once installed, a PF should not need to be removed to service the bearings. (similar to the old-style headsets. A press was needed to install, but the headset has a very long life).

This is looking more like a frame problem.

I hear you, but I like the ability to remove and replace at will. Of course I still don't understand the internet, so grain of salt

[Peter B]

I run both and am a fan of both.

in terms of design and manufacturing I think press fit (& 2 piece cranks) is pretty clean. just weld your frame, face, and ream :)

this reminds me of quill vs. threadless.

Great for the manufacturer, not so great for the OP.

[Tony T]

Tony, this is not a frame problem. In your original post you mentioned that the cup was originally flush and then the gap reappeared....you can eliminate frame facing issue if they were indeed flush upon original install. The problem you are experiencing is a VERY SIMPLE and VERY COMMON install issue...simply follow the already posted Loctite instructions.

Just curious, have you tried uninstalling your cranks and checking the firmness of the cup?...I suspect that when you do the cup will fall right into your hand.

Lastly, if you keep riding your bike with a loose cup you will begin grinding away the internal part of your BB shell, yielding a larger ID and thus risk that no press-fit cups will ever fit.

Install those cups correctly and be done with it.

Lou

The cup was originally flush and then the gap appeared. LBS re-installed with Loctite, then after 200 or so miles, the gap reappeared, so Loctite was not the solution (yes, I'm assuming that the LBS did the install correctly). If there was no gap for 200 miles, shouldn't this mean that the install was correct?


Anyway, looks like it will be another trip to the LBS......

[lhuerta]

The cup was originally flush and then the gap appeared. LBS re-installed with Loctite, then after 200 or so miles, the gap reappeared, so Loctite was not the solution (yes, I'm assuming that the LBS did the install correctly). If there was no gap for 200 miles, shouldn't this mean that the install was correct?


Anyway, looks like it will be another trip to the LBS......

Loctite is the ONLY solution, but you need to use the correct Loctite. Again...If cups were originally flush then that means your frame facing is fine and does not require facing. If cups came loose after 200 miles then that means the green Loctite was insufficient (a knowledgable and competent mechanic would know not to use green or blue threadlock as a gap filler on press fit cups). That is why the only solution is Loctite 641 or 609 with activator (go to loctite.com and read about 609 and 641)...these are very high strengh gap filling and adhesive compunds, not the low grade threadlock found in blue or green Loctite.

Lou

[Grant McLean]

If cups came loose after 200 miles then that means the green Loctite was insufficient (a knowledgable and competent mechanic would know not to use green or blue threadlock as a gap filler on press fit cups). That is why the only solution is Loctite 641 or 609 with activator (go to loctite.com and read about 609 and 641)...these are very high strengh gap filling and adhesive compunds, not the low grade threadlock found in blue or green Loctite.

Lou

Yup. Lou here knows what he is talking about.
Green Locktite is compound designed to hold threads,
not for press-fit situations. The mechanic should know better.

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_green/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Green-290.htm

Right brand, wrong product. The green stuff doesn't have enough
holding power to keep a pressfit cup secure.

-g

[Tony T]

Loctite is the ONLY solution, but you need to use the correct Loctite. Again...If cups were originally flush then that means your frame facing is fine and does not require facing. If cups came loose after 200 miles then that means the green Loctite was insufficient (a knowledgable and competent mechanic would know not to use green or blue threadlock as a gap filler on press fit cups). That is why the only solution is Loctite 641 or 609 with activator (go to loctite.com and read about 609 and 641)...these are very high strengh gap filling and adhesive compunds, not the low grade threadlock found in blue or green Loctite.

Lou

I do most of my own work (usually except for headsets and BB press), but since the bike is still under warranty, I'll give the LBS another try, then I'll do it myself.

BTW, would I be able to remove the cups (if ever needed) if 609 (http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/609-EN.pdf) and 641 (http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/641-EN.pdf) are used?

EDIT: I see that 641 (http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/641-EN.pdf) allows disassembly.

.

[wallymann]

even eye-talian threaded ones! in this case it pays to be a dinosaur.

good luck w/ your PF BB issues everyone.

[Tony T]

BTW, If I end up doing this myself, could you recommend a press? (I usually go with Park (http://www.parktool.com/product/home-mechanic-bearing-cup-press-hhp-3))

And for removal, is this the right tool: Bottom Bracket Tool Set for BB30 and PF30 (http://www.parktool.com/product/bottom-bracket-tool-set-for-bb30-bbt-30-3)

[Tony T]

(a knowledgable and competent mechanic would know not to use green or blue threadlock as a gap filler on press fit cups). That is why the only solution is Loctite 641 or 609 with activator

He might have used 609 (http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/609-EN.pdf) (The tech sheet describes it as Appearance (uncured): Green liquid), he told me he used green Loctite, he might have meant 609 if the tech sheet is correct on the color.

Edit: I see now that 609 requires "localized heat to the assembly to approximately 250 °C. Disassemble while hot", so he definitely did not use 609 (he said that he was using a Loctite that allowed disassembly). Looks like the same for 641, so since this is a carbon frame, does this mean that once installed with 609 or 641 that there is no way to disassemble? not that I should need to, but....

Ah!, the old days of threaded BB's!
.

[cfox]

That would be my first guess as well...the BB isn't faced properly.

THIS. I had the exact same thing happen on a PF30 BB on an aluminum frame. I faced the shell and it was perfect after that. If the shell faces aren't (just about) perfectly square with one another, the axle will pull the cups square and leave the gap you are seeing.

[cfox]

Loctite is the ONLY solution, but you need to use the correct Loctite. Again...If cups were originally flush then that means your frame facing is fine and does not require facing. If cups came loose after 200 miles then that means the green Loctite was insufficient (a knowledgable and competent mechanic would know not to use green or blue threadlock as a gap filler on press fit cups). That is why the only solution is Loctite 641 or 609 with activator (go to loctite.com and read about 609 and 641)...these are very high strengh gap filling and adhesive compunds, not the low grade threadlock found in blue or green Loctite.

Lou

This is incorrect. The cups can be installed flush even if the faces aren't square to one another, especially if a non-campy press is used. A lot of guys will just tap the cups in with a rubber mallet. If the face is flat, the cup can be pressed flush to it; it is the relationship to the other face that matters. If they aren't almost perfectly square to one another, no amount of loctite will keep a gap from forming; the torque from the big steel axle will force them out. On my bike, the cups were flush on the original install, and after a little use the gap formed. I re-faced the BB and the cups have been perfect for many thousands of miles.

[choke]

If the frame BB faces is not true and square, can it be repaired? If so, how?

.Yes, it can be fixed. A BB Facing tool is used to make the faces parallel to each other. That's not an inexpensive tool though so you should plan on a trip to a good LBS.

[R2D2]

Campagnolo makes both 86,5x41 and 86x42. Are you positive you've got the rigth ones?
If so, the other post suggesting facing both sides in parallel and/or Loctite (although I can't find any Campagnolo instructions stating to use it for press fit cups) seem like the way to go.

Make sure if you have it faced they plenty of experience and don't remove too much material.

[cfox]

Make sure if you have it faced they plenty of experience and don't remove too much material.

This is good advice and most especially so with Campy. With a fixed axle length, there is a window of BB widths that work. Too narrow and you're screwed. Also note, my friend is the head mechanic for arguably the most high-end shop in the country. He makes sure all PF BB's are square and has only ever used Phil's grease on the hundreds of PF BB's he's installed. He's never used loctite.

[Tony T]

Campagnolo makes both 86,5x41 and 86x42. Are you positive you've got the rigth ones?
If so, the other post suggesting facing both sides in parallel and/or Loctite (although I can't find any Campagnolo instructions stating to use it for press fit cups) seem like the way to go.

Make sure if you have it faced they plenty of experience and don't remove too much material.

Yes, correct cups. Campy used to instruct the use of Loctite, current instructions no longer do.

Well, this does answer my question of if the 1mm gap is significant enough to get resolved (it is), so I'll leave it to the LBS to determine the correct fix.

Thanks guys,

[biker72]

I've got press fit Campy cups in my Specialized Allez. I've got about 1200 miles on them with no problems.

I can't imagine the green loctite not fixing this problem. I used to use it all the time when I worked at a defense electronics company. Large diameter outer races of bearings sometimes had to be loctited to keep them from moving. The green stuff always worked but the surfaces had to be cleaned and primed.

I’d take the bike back to your LBS. I think this is just a warning of an accident about to happen.

[oldpotatoe]

These are press fit shells for Ultra Torque cranks, no threads. IMO it's more about the frame in which they reside than the bearing fittings.

Has the frame been properly prepared, checked for true and square BB faces? With these cups anything a trifle out of square will allow movement of the cups - they'll shift under load.

I think this is it. Frame issue, cups not being parallel or too small side to side. These cups, even tho not extremely tight going in, should not wander. I sure wouldn't glue them in or they will never come out.

[oldpotatoe]

I run both and am a fan of both.

in terms of design and manufacturing I think press fit (& 2 piece cranks) is pretty clean. just weld your frame, face, and ream :)

this reminds me of quill vs. threadless.

It should because these new BB 'standards' are for saving money, not performance, just like threadless.

[oldpotatoe]

Tony, this is not a frame problem. In your original post you mentioned that the cup was originally flush and then the gap reappeared....you can eliminate frame facing issue if they were indeed flush upon original install. The problem you are experiencing is a VERY SIMPLE and VERY COMMON install issue...simply follow the already posted Loctite instructions.

Just curious, have you tried uninstalling your cranks and checking the firmness of the cup?...I suspect that when you do the cup will fall right into your hand.

Lastly, if you keep riding your bike with a loose cup you will begin grinding away the internal part of your BB shell, yielding a larger ID and thus risk that no press-fit cups will ever fit.

Install those cups correctly and be done with it.

Lou

UNLESS the frame 'cups' are not parallel to each other, which I suspect. If canted with respect to one another, the cups will indeed be flush when installed w/o the crank but when installing the crank and riding, the cup(s) migrate because spindle is not perpendicular to the plane of the cups. Like using a thread in BB when the frame faces weren't parallel.

Plus carbon frame, probably cannot 'face' the BB shell.

[Matthew]

Love my threaded Dura Ace BBs. No issues ever. Every time I get new bike lust and think I need the next latest greatest trend in cycling I take a ride on my Moots Compact or Serotta Concours and wonder why I would ever need something new. Quiet, smooth, maintenance free, and cheap/easy to replace. New frames with all carbon BB shells are particularly scary. No reaming or facing those. Hope you can get your issue worked out. Matthew.

[Tony T]

Plus carbon frame, probably cannot 'face' the BB shell.

Does that mean that there is no fix?

[merlincustom1]

A friend had this issue with a Specialized. Frame wasn't square. Remedy was new frame under warranty.

[oldpotatoe]

A friend had this issue with a Specialized. Frame wasn't square. Remedy was new frame under warranty.

See post number 42 above.

[Tony T]

A friend had this issue with a Specialized. Frame wasn't square. Remedy was new frame under warranty.

I'm under warranty, so I'm covered.
Final question: What's acceptable tolerance? (i.e. is my 1mm gap "a lot")

[merlincustom1]

I'm under warranty, so I'm covered.
Final question: What's acceptable tolerance? (i.e. is my 1mm gap "a lot")

I don't think one mm is a lot, but I'm not sure that should be the question. When first installed it was likely flush because as Old P said the fit isn't to a super tight tolerance. If the frame isn't square it's backed out under load. I'd tend to think it would stay flush with a true frame. As you said earlier it's a mm out on just one end, which I think is evidence of movement under load.

[Tony T]

I don't think one mm is a lot, but I'm not sure that should be the question. When first installed it was likely flush because as Old P said the fit isn't to a super tight tolerance. If the frame isn't square it's backed out under load. I'd tend to think it would stay flush with a true frame. As you said earlier it's a mm out on just one end, which I think is evidence of movement under load.

Yes, it's already been determined that the 1mm gap is due to "cups not being parallel or too small side to side", so now my final question is, is 1mm within tolerances (i.e. how much is too much before the frame is stripped and sent back to the builder for a warranty claim as the BB shell cannot be repaired).
1mm may not sound like a lot, but maybe it is.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, it's already been determined that the 1mm gap is due to "cups not being parallel or too small side to side", so now my final question is, is 1mm within tolerances (i.e. how much is too much before the frame is stripped and sent back to the builder for a warranty claim as the BB shell cannot be repaired).
1mm may not sound like a lot, but maybe it is.

Well, it shows the cups are not staying parallel when riding so either damage to the frame or killing bearings may be a result. It's not right, correct. Talk to the builder/reseller/retailer/manufacturer....no mention of what frame it is?

[Tony T]

Well, it shows the cups are not staying parallel when riding so either damage to the frame or killing bearings may be a result

That's all I need to know, so back it goes...
Thanks

P.S. LBS is working with me on this, but I didn't want to have him go to the trouble of breaking down the bike and sending it back to the frame builder unless necessary.

[cfox]

one more data point; it depends on the carbon frame. I had a carbon Serotta a few years ago that while it had a threaded BB, it had clearly been faced with a cutter, likely before leaving the factory. Pinarello, on the other hand, specifically states not to face their molded frames.