Is my cycling club too restrictive?

[elcolombiano]

My cycling group has had numerous recent accidents and in response has come up with new rules.

The unpublished new rules include no riders can pass the ride leader. If you pass the ride leader you either get asked to not ride with the group or get told to go all the way to the back of the group. This past Saturday the ride leader slowed to 7 MPH going up a short hill. I did not want to lose my momentum so I passed him on the left. When I crested the hill I coasted waiting for the group to catch up. When the leader caught up he directed me to the curb and told me I had to ride the rest of the ride in the back of the group. I complied and went to the back where I found three attractive female triathletes who had also been banished to the back for being in possession of clip on aero bars. They told me they had been told that not only were they not allowed to use them they were not even allowed to have them. This is not a racing club but a recreational touring club. In over 40 years of riding I have never encountered anything like this. Is this normal now days?

I wrote an email to the club president and received a defensive reply.

[christian]

If you ride an antler bike, you don't ride with me.

As far as passing the leader, their club, their rules. I don't have an issue with it.

[pinkshogun]

i would start a new club begining with the 3 attractive ladies

[William]

i would start a new club begining with the 3 attractive ladies

Hammer and nail!!!:beer:

I like this guy!!:cool:




That said, their rules but I would find another group or go solo.






William

[Louis]

I did not want to lose my momentum so I passed him on the left.

Showoff. No soup for you. :no:

That's ridiculous. Especially for climbing, where it's a real pita to not ride at your own speed. I'd either bail on the club or only ride with leaders who were closer to my speed.

[MattTuck]

Is it a little silly to enforce the rules to that degree? yes. Are they within the spectrum of being normal, yes. Especially if they have gotten complaints from cars and others, they need to preserve the ride and the club, at the expense of sending some folks to the back, even if it is kinda silly.

[ofcounsel]

Sounds like you need to find a club that suits you.

Or just ride with friends.

[oliver1850]

This is the sort of stuff that would elicit the disdainful comment "clubbies" from my old team mate Lee White (lately HMFIC, TRD). If the logical approach doesn't get you anywhere, just continue to ride (your own way) as long as you enjoy it. They're public roads after all. They can't banish you to the back unless you go along with it.

[Fixed]

Hammer and nail!!!:beer:

I like this guy!!:cool:




That said, their rules but I would find another group or go solo.






William

+1
Cheers

[tch]

...why I like riding alone best of all......

[jr59]

i would start a new club begining with the 3 attractive ladies



Hammer and nail!!!:beer:

I like this guy!!:cool:




That said, their rules but I would find another group or go solo.






William

You 2 guys get it!
I like the way you both think.

It is their club and they make the rules, so you either have to accept them or start a new club.

I would tend to think that the 3 attractive ladies would give your new club/ride a big head start in drawing riders!

[khjr]

My cycling group has had numerous recent accidents and in response has come up with new rules.

I've seen some of the worst accidents and close-calls while riding with groups of novice cyclists - enough such that I'm a little cautious about the groups I'll ride with. I don't think that I'm rare in that regard, as some of the local racer groups are unwilling to let non-racers ride in their pacelines, perhaps fearing an amateurish mistake in close quarters that could cost someone their racing season.

It sounds like your club has an open-door to novices, which is nice and non-exclusive. If so, then I suppose that it's their prerogative to rule out any/all behavior that may, based on prior bad experiences, pose a safety threat. e.g. perhaps they had a bad experience with a wobbly rider using the aero bars in close quarters, or with some testosterone charged doofus (not suggesting you here) turning a group ride into a race so that he could impress an aero-barred hottie. There's always riding alone, as someone else suggested, but she won't be on that ride!

[reggiebaseball]

I've seen some of the worst accidents and close-calls while riding with groups of novice cyclists - enough such that I'm a little cautious about the groups I'll ride with. I don't think that I'm rare in that regard, as some of the local racer groups are unwilling to let non-racers ride in their pacelines, perhaps fearing an amateurish mistake in close quarters that could cost someone their racing season.

It sounds like your club has an open-door to novices, which is nice and non-exclusive. If so, then I suppose that it's their prerogative to rule out any/all behavior that may, based on prior bad experiences, pose a safety threat. e.g. perhaps they had a bad experience with a wobbly rider using the aero bars in close quarters, or with some testosterone charged doofus (not suggesting you here) turning a group ride into a race so that he could impress an aero-barred hottie. There's always riding alone, as someone else suggested, but she won't be on that ride!

I'm of a like mind. I see too much amateur hour bs happening at open group rides, and would prefer a ride leader lay down a strict law rather than have freds wobbling all over with their aerobars and trying to pass me on hills in traffic.

[miguel]

You can surely wheelie at 7mph
C'mon
Get pro

[MattTuck]

I'm of a like mind. I see too much amateur hour bs happening at open group rides, and would prefer a ride leader lay down a strict law rather than have freds wobbling all over with their aerobars and trying to pass me on hills in traffic.

I believe there is a well established technique for dealing with these newbs. Unfortunately, real cyclists don't ride with frame pumps anymore, and throwing your CO2 cartridges into someone's spokes doesn't send the message like the good ole days.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hSZo5vjiPmQ/Sd5CpxCRYxI/AAAAAAAAFzE/85EWzGzOnTo/s720/Crash%20002.JPG

[William]

I believe there is a well established technique for dealing with these newbs. Unfortunately, real cyclists don't ride with frame pumps anymore, and throwing your CO2 cartridges into someone's spokes doesn't send the message like the good ole days.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hSZo5vjiPmQ/Sd5CpxCRYxI/AAAAAAAAFzE/85EWzGzOnTo/s720/Crash%20002.JPG

Yeah, these days they throw water bottles at your head!!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7401nXtOw1qacyk6o1_500.jpg




;)
William

[rustychisel]

is being banished similar to having a doofus drive behind you for 1/2 a mile sounding his horn?

Behavioural psych is a bitch.... and I've seen some group rides where the 'rules' are so strict that everyone seems to spend so much time looking out for [hand signals, imaginary speed limits, doing their pull on the paceline, etc] that they're incredibly tetchy and dangerous things to be near.

[GuyGadois]

The no passing the ride leader seems a bit strange. Like the others said, on a hill if you want to go faster wait at the top. I TOTALLY understand not wanting Tri bar riders in a group. The back is where they belong in a group. Great bikes for solo rides, compete crap for riding in a group.

GG

[biker72]

i would start a new club begining with the 3 attractive ladies

I normally ride solo but I might consider joining this group...:)

[merlinmurph]

It's funny. When it comes to these group ride discussions, I often hear the argument that these days, there is never the guy that controls the group. You know, the grizzled veteran who the other riders respect and who chastises others if they get out of line and sends them to the back of the pack. A lot of older riders recall those days and say that is where they learned how to ride in a pack and learn the rules, and that they are better riders because of it.

Now we have people chastising a leader because he's trying to keep order in the group and prevent accidents.

Well, which is it?

FWIW, I'm an old guy (58) who has been riding avidly since he was a kid, but never got involved in club riding and riding in packs. I ride alone 99.9% of the time. I'm sure I'd be a better rider if I joined group rides, but I think we all ride for different reasons and the main reason I ride is to be outside, get some good exercise, see some beautiful countryside, and be alone in my thoughts.

Enjoy your ride,
Murph

[Mr Cabletwitch]

...why I like riding alone best of all......


Ding Ding Ding... We have a winner in my book :)

[CNY rider]

I'm sure there's a happy medium, but it will be hard to get agreement on where that lies.

I ride alone most of the time, and with a single close friend the rest. I have no interest in groups now.
We had a group form around here maybe 8 or 10 years ago. It was the opposite of what the OP writes about. We would have a ride scheduled for "C" level riders, and then the fast kids would show up and blow it all apart.
No leadership at all.
I would fall off the back, end up riding alone anyway, and figured "What the hell do I need the club for, I can do this myself."

OTOH, I would not expect to be chastised if I went up a hill faster than the leader and then waited or cruised slowly at the top so they could overtake.

[Ginger]

Yes, your cycling club's rules are too restrictive for you. They're obviously trying to control a messy pack of riders, not a serious paceline of riders who have enough control of their speed to propel the paceline forward at a consistent appropriate speed. If I were you, I'd go find someone else to ride with.


That said, perhaps you're riding in too slow of a group. Sure you can pass them all, and the cute tri girls ride with them...but are you getting out of it what you want out of it? Perhaps your aims are different than that of the club? Most clubs have all sorts of rides A, B, and C training rides, and social rides for the various speeds as well...

Or, since you're in the club, maybe you should volunteer to be the leader of that particular ride, or another ride... so you can ride the pace you want to ride at?!


(P.S. No riding past the leader is not a "new" rule. In my day, if someone rode off the front of the paceline, we would just turn at the next available turn and let them ride alone because it was obvious they wanted to be alone. If you want to ride with the group, ride with the group. But then, we rode in pacelines, not packs.... there is a difference. And no. I'm not an old guy.)

[dekindy]

If the triathlete's bikes were dedicated triathlon bikes, not just aerobars clamped to regular handlebars, you better believe they should be in the back. I am assuming that they have to take their hands off their bars to shift the forward controls. Otherwise if it is a clamped aerobar with regular controls it is okay to ride anywhere in the pack as long as the aerobars are not used, no exceptions. Some tend to use aerobars when leading but that is dangerous also as there is still less control.

There should not be passing in groups especially on hills. A rotating paceline suspended on steep hills and approaching stop signs is appropriate. Strategy for hills should be to let the climbers go up front prior to the hill and then regroup over the top; a good leader would know the route and verbalize this. I agree that climbing at someone else's slow speed is more tiring than riding at your own pace.

It sounds like you simply need subgroups based upon speed. However if attendance does not diminish there is little need to change as that implies that the group realizes more discipline is needed. We have had a couple of crashes in our Tuesday night social group recently and there is a dramatic change in the ride leaders clarity in communicating direction and other commands to the group. This was not the cause of the accidents but was a wakeup call that things were too sloppy. We have tandems very often and one pair is notoriously guilty of passing the group at stop signs because they are less stable at slow speeds and don't want to stop unless they absolutely have to. Just want of the negatives that is more than offset by the advantages of group riding; at least in my opinion. Your opinion is what counts so you will have to make a decision.

[cmg]

the monday night ride has a leader and he likes to bark at unsafe riders. since it is a free for all the skill level of rider is ever changing. It's his ride. i've ridden it as a leaderless ride and i prefer the barking. the leader of your ride has decided that he wants the responsibiltiy to be the leader. you may complain but if you don't like the rules then............

[merlincustom1]

There's certainly a difference between riding off the front of the group and passing the leader on a climb and then waiting, and any club that deigns to have such rules should know the difference. That said, the ban on clip on bars makes total sense. It's nice when there's a patron of the peloton to guide new riders and offer meaningful instruction, but this hard and fast no passing the leader rule isn't that; it's dogmatism for its own sake.

[Fixed]

Yes, your cycling club's rules are too restrictive for you. They're obviously trying to control a messy pack of riders, not a serious paceline of riders who have enough control of their speed to propel the paceline forward at a consistent appropriate speed. If I were you, I'd go find someone else to ride with.


That said, perhaps you're riding in too slow of a group. Sure you can pass them all, and the cute tri girls ride with them...but are you getting out of it what you want out of it? Perhaps your aims are different than that of the club? Most clubs have all sorts of rides A, B, and C training rides, and social rides for the various speeds as well...

Or, since you're in the club, maybe you should volunteer to be the leader of that particular ride, or another ride... so you can ride the pace you want to ride at?!


(P.S. No riding past the leader is not a "new" rule. In my day, if someone rode off the front of the paceline, we would just turn at the next available turn and let them ride alone because it was obvious they wanted to be alone. If you want to ride with the group, ride with the group. But then, we rode in pacelines, not packs.... there is a difference. And no. I'm not an old guy.)
+1
riders who think they are stronger than everyone in the group need to be in
another group .
Cheers :)

[cfox]

you need to find a club where the 'leader' can go up a hill faster than 7mph

[zap]

Life is too short too ride with the insecure.

As with any rider in a group, judge how the rider rides with the group before discriminating against "aero" kit.

[weiwentg]

Speaking of the newbies, yes, I learned from the grizzled and strict older vets. That was in Michigan. In DC/Baltimore, the two shop rides I've frequented have the leader at the front 90 percent of the time. No formal rule about you can't pass the leader. But that arrangement is not very conducive to learning actual paceline skills. All the people I've ridden with in DC don't seem to know how to get in a paceline and actually rotate.

[flydhest]

Find another group. Everyone will be better off. I wouldn't want to ride with a group that set such restrictions on me. On the other hand, when I have led group rides and felt that, for safety's sake, I needed to put rules in place, I wouldn't want someone on the rides if they felt like they got to chose when and where to obey the rules.

[sc53]

I remember BruceK's recent threads about the unsafe woman crashing on his group's rides. Sounds like she needed to be treated like your ride leader is treating people! Each weekend I find group rides at my pace on rural routes that I enjoy riding. I show up on time, get the cue sheet, say hello to a few people, then always end up riding alone because I like to stop and take photographs or there are too many know-it-all's yelling "CAR BACK" and
"GRAVEL" at the top of their lungs and startling the he!! out of me! So I let them go on or I speed up and follow the cues on my own. I have one or two friends who seem to ride like me so when they show up on these rides, I have company. Otherwise, I just do my own thing. Sometimes I wonder why I bother to show up at the ride start since I hardly ever ride with the group!

[bambam]

...
Or, since you're in the club, maybe you should volunteer to be the leader of that particular ride, or another ride... so you can ride the pace you want to ride at?!
...



I ride captain for our club on occasion but our captains ride at the back of the pack and sweep. Groups tend to form as the ride progresses and tend to self police themselves. Granted we have not had to many accidents lately. If their is a problem hopefully we will arrive and be able to assist.

BamBam

P.S. Banished to the back may not be a bad thing.

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=sc53;1206178I then always end up riding alone because I like to stop and take photographs or there are too many know-it-all's yelling "CAR BACK" and
"GRAVEL" at the top of their lungs and startling the he!! out of me! I have one or two friends who seem to ride like me so when they show up on these rides, I have company. Otherwise, I just do my own thing. Sometimes I wonder why I bother to show up at the ride start since I hardly ever ride with the group![/QUOTE]

I gradually gave up on group rides for similar reasons. When I see the pros have a group crash I am reminded how one hard fall could end my active lifestyle. Since I'm not a racer and have an arthritic neck I stop when I want to take a drink or drink in a view.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and if you ride with the group and it's "personality" doesn't match yours, then it's best just to find another group.

I've been on my share where my riding personality definitely didn't match up to theirs. In one there was an "in" group and if you weren't "in" it and had a mechanical they'd leave you behind. In another when I was visiting out of town, the ride I picked out of the local club's list turned out to be a bunch of what can best be described as cycling Kamikazes. so I stayed off the back a bit, just keeping them in sight so I wouldn't get lost at the turns.

More recently I do this more often--staying a bit off the back to see how the ride's personality will show itself. I also don't get into paceline situations with people I don't know well. I've also learned to trust my instincts--if I'm in a close group and I find myself feeling really nervous, there's probably a good reason why. Time to drift out of it or turn off on my own.

Find a group ride whose personality matches yours and don't feel guilty about abandoning a group or club ride--even one where friends are in attendance--if you're getting bad vibes. Life's too short to not have a good time riding--and possibly endanger yourself by riding with people who are unsafe or have control issues like this ride leader apparently does.

BBD

[MattTuck]

I ride captain for our club on occasion but our captains ride at the back of the pack and sweep. Groups tend to form as the ride progresses and tend to self police themselves. Granted we have not had to many accidents lately. If their is a problem hopefully we will arrive and be able to assist.

BamBam

P.S. Banished to the back may not be a bad thing.


I don't ride with groups very often, but this approach makes the most sense to me. Let people form their own groups and ride at their own pace. Riding an artificially slow pace at the front just leads to congestion behind, and people will expand into the lane, as they get backed up. A quicker pace will keep everyone in a paceline, and more out of the road.

I mostly dislike riding with groups, because of those people who like to ride 4 abreast in the lane, without regard for cars. Then they wonder why cars honk... :no:

[FlashUNC]

. . . and if you ride with the group and it's "personality" doesn't match yours, then it's best just to find another group.

I've been on my share where my riding personality definitely didn't match up to theirs. In one there was an "in" group and if you weren't "in" it and had a mechanical they'd leave you behind. In another when I was visiting out of town, the ride I picked out of the local club's list turned out to be a bunch of what can best be described as cycling Kamikazes. so I stayed off the back a bit, just keeping them in sight so I wouldn't get lost at the turns.

More recently I do this more often--staying a bit off the back to see how the ride's personality will show itself. I also don't get into paceline situations with people I don't know well. I've also learned to trust my instincts--if I'm in a close group and I find myself feeling really nervous, there's probably a good reason why. Time to drift out of it or turn off on my own.

Find a group ride whose personality matches yours and don't feel guilty about abandoning a group or club ride--even one where friends are in attendance--if you're getting bad vibes. Life's too short to not have a good time riding--and possibly endanger yourself by riding with people who are unsafe or have control issues like this ride leader apparently does.

BBD

+1. Definitely good advice.

[Steve in SLO]

It's funny. When it comes to these group ride discussions, I often hear the argument that these days, there is never the guy that controls the group. You know, the grizzled veteran who the other riders respect and who chastises others if they get out of line and sends them to the back of the pack. A lot of older riders recall those days and say that is where they learned how to ride in a pack and learn the rules, and that they are better riders because of it.

Now we have people chastising a leader because he's trying to keep order in the group and prevent accidents.

Well, which is it?

FWIW, I'm an old guy (58) who has been riding avidly since he was a kid, but never got involved in club riding and riding in packs. I ride alone 99.9% of the time. I'm sure I'd be a better rider if I joined group rides, but I think we all ride for different reasons and the main reason I ride is to be outside, get some good exercise, see some beautiful countryside, and be alone in my thoughts.

Enjoy your ride,
Murph
At times it does seem like we get to talking out of both sides of our mouths, but here is a difference between the 'Capo' with a dictatorial style vs having a few more seasoned riders to establish ground rules before the ride, then give helpful feedback and firm corrections during the ride. There is a whole lot more group harmony and togetherness in the latter.

[malcolm]

you need to find a club where the 'leader' can go up a hill faster than 7mph

doesn't that depend on the hill?

[ultraman6970]

Hmmm this is a really delicate subject because who knows what was going on when those accidents happened. Believe me, nobody over 40 wants to have an accident... probably already they got issues with the aero bars with riders that can't handle the bikes so is reasonable some of the things they are asking, but IMO it depends on how proficient all the riders are.

If like 50% of the group cant handle their bikes and cant ride in pairs then is more than clear what could be going on, but IMO the way they are addresing the problem is wrong. Is so simple as talk with the people and straight forward to tell the newbies or non bike handlers to stay in the back of the group until they improve. If the person in charge of the group doesnt have experience because he started riding like 10 years ago and never got experience racing then that could explain what is going on aswell. Ex racers community take the things in another way...

What i find ridiculous is just put you in time out because you did not want to lose moment, IMO the guy/s are putting too much passion on that one to say the least :)

My advice? just ride with people you feel comfortable with, even what you should have done or doing is just be nice with the hot triathlete chicks you mentioned and probably you can come up with your own group?? Or just go and ride alone and tag with the guys that pass you for example.

Good luck.

[elcolombiano]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I think I need to make a small group of cycling friends or just ride alone. Feeling when I am riding like I am a float in the middle of a parade is not the experience I am looking for for every day riding.

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I think I need to make a small group of cycling friends or just ride alone. Feeling when I am riding like I am a float in the middle of a parade is not the experience I am looking for for every day riding.

Amen. Life is too short to have my recreating dictated by other people.

[krhea]

Our club has a "Ride leader team" of 35 members. Each week I send a ride leader "call up" to the team and they sign up for whatever group they feel like riding with on the upcoming Saturday ride.
We have an extremely active membership and average an easy 100 riders every Saturday during the summer and a couple times this summer we had 150 riders show up.

We break our groups up by "self-seeding" into speed groups. Our groups are: 14-16mph, 16-18, 18-20, 21s and open(21+, race efforts, attacks etc). All you need do is be able to maintain those speeds on flat to rolling terrain. Each group has a ride leader and our groups are usually 10-12 riders and never more than 15. We roll out with the fastest groups first, give a 5minute break between roll outs and we're on the road.

We have a very strict helmet policy/no headphones or cell usage during the ride. We also do not allow TT bikes or tri-bikes with aero only bars on our weekly ride. We do however allow clip-on aero bars but they can only be used when that person is leading the group, not while "within" the group. The ability to handle the bike in quick situations, club pacelines etc we feel is compromised by the use of aero bars "within" our group(s). Our ride leaders understand the ebb and flow of a group ride and get the job done each and every week in excellent fashion. I don't expect nor want my ride leaders to be on the front of the group the entire time. They know to float through the group, communicate well with the riders, know the route, call out regroups spots, aid with mechanicals/flats if needed as well as emergencys. Our ride leaders are the good-will ambassadors for our club. They also realize that some folks climb faster than others and vice versa and it's no big deal to pass a ride leader and or ride on the front of the group as long as you stay within the stated speed of the group. The only other requirement is that if you're on the front you're expected to know the route and call out upcoming turns.

We alternate each week with a climbing ride, flat to rolling ride so our members know what to expect. I also make a pre-ride announcement prior to our climbing rides that if folks aren't strong climbers/don't like to climb etc it's not a good week to move up a speed group and it could be a good idea to actually ride down a speed group. Our ride leaders, some really good climbers, some not so good usually let their group(s) ride the hills however they want and call a regroup point at the top of the climb prior to beginning the climb. That way everyone knows what's up, know's to wait at the top and everyone can climb like they want as fast or slow as they want, including the ride leader. If a ride leader gets up top sooner than the bulk of the group he usually descends back down and "rides up" supporting slower or struggling riders.

Beginning this fall we're starting a bi-weekly training session on our Saturday rides for members who want to improve their group riding skills, become more comfortable within a group, understand how riding in paceline really works, how much group dynamics affect the ride, how to communicate properly when riding in a group etc.
It always amazes me how many really good riders fitness wise are not good "cyclists" in terms of riding within a group, following a wheel communicating etc. Riding with a group is much more then just being fit enough to hang in there. So we'll offer our members some help to improve their efficiency on the bike as well as their safety and the safety of those around them.

As many have said, if the group doesn't suit your needs it's best to move away as they probably have what they feel is a good reason for their rules whether you or I understand it or not...and I can't imagine why you'd ever have a rule that says don't pass the ride leader on a climb.

Group rides are certainly not for everyone but if you happen to find a good club or group to ride with it can be a great experience, add to your fitness and be a great addition or option to riding solo.

KRhea

[AngryScientist]

Amen. Life is too short to have my recreating dictated by other people.

truth

[Louis]

We have an extremely active membership and average an easy 100 riders every Saturday during the summer and a couple times this summer we had 150 riders show up.

With such a large turnouts what do you do to try to minimze the impact on drivers who have to pass group after group after group of riders?

[false_Aest]

take a break from thought
the group wanders to and fro
sometimes so should you

[Steve in SLO]

Methinks KRhea's club gets it.

[krhea]

With such a large turnouts what do you do to try to minimze the impact on drivers who have to pass group after group after group of riders?


We're on extremely rural roads for one, number two, as a club we all know that "car back" is our most useful communication to keep not only our riders aware of what's going on but even more importantly to not impede traffic anymore then we have to. As soon as we hear someone yell car back we immediately move into single file if we're not already riding that way. Our club has been around for 6years and we're known as a good group of riders who follow the rules of road and that alone goes a long way. Also, living and riding around Portland OR means riding hills. Even on our "flat to rolling" rides we encounter what some would call hills. So the terrain breaks up the groups as well which again, spreads us apart so traffic isn't passing 25-50 riders at a time.
You'd also be surprised at how fast a group of 100 riders made up of varying speed groups breaks up and into small groups covering lots of miles. With groups ranging from "racer types" who take no breaks, don't regroup and just keep their heads down rolling along at 25mph or faster to riders going 14mph, stopping, regrouping and chit-chatting our groups are spread all over a 50miles route. The only time we usually come in contact with another group is if there's been a flat or mechanical and the group has stopped. If we do come upon another during the course of the ride the faster group goes ahead and the slower group waits 5 or 10minutes before resuming their ride.