NAHBS: Form vs Function

[William]

Old potato's comment in the Peg thread,

I wouldn't use NAHMBS as a guide, since it is almost more of an art show than bike show..why some have decided to not participate since so much is one-off, unique to the show. Yes it shows unique design and execution but not necessarily tools rather than trophies.

and they fact that I watched Darrell McCulloch's video on the Video page last night and noted a similar comment he made....

Darrell McCulloch - Framebuilder (Llewellyn Custom Bicycles)
http://vimeo.com/14916149

...got me to ah wondering. His comments come at 16:20 in the video.

I honestly don't know the answer. But I'm asking based on OP's and Darrell's comment.

Q: To those that have attended: Has there been a shift to aesthetics over function and "structurally sound" building practices?





William

[tiretrax]

From my vast experience of attending one show, I thought that it was about 1/2 and 1/2 of production bikes vs. showpieces intended to catch the attention of the public and show off the framebuilder's creativity and abilities.

[dekindy]

From my vast experience of attending one show, I thought that it was about 1/2 and 1/2 of production bikes vs. showpieces intended to catch the attention of the public and show off the framebuilder's creativity and abilities.

Another way to look at it as that it is a way to either show all the options possible on a category of bicycle or stimulate a potential buyer's imagination to the possibilities.

An example would be Shamrock Cycles that happens to be near my home. He designed a bicycle that could have road wheels for club rides or day long rides, commuting or light touring with custom designed front and back racks, or be a full on cross racer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y48idpnkltY

[bluesea]

oldpotatoeI wouldn't use NAHMBS as a guide, since it is almost more of an art show than bike show..why some have decided to not participate since so much is one-off, unique to the show. Yes it shows unique design and execution but not necessarily tools rather than trophies.

Heard Dario once say, "tanto fumo, no arrosto', 'all smoke, no fire', or something like that, when talking about 'modern' bicycle frame designs and materials.

Similar comments from Tommasini..also from Ambrosio and 'modern' wheels...

I lust after a Luigino, with the split fork crown fork, BTW...




Agree 101%.

Most of the stuff there goes too far beyond the elemental functional simplicity of the bicycle, and it doesn't speak to me as a cyclist. I've avoided wasting my time looking at the pictures for the last 2 year.

NAHBS is Bayliss gone wild--show your teets!

[EricEstlund]

I can't speak for other exhibitors, but to get into my booth a bike must pass one of the following tests:

1. Is it pre-sold to an existing customer?
2. Would I feel comfortable selling it out of the booth to a real-world user?

I'm not adverse to making it as specific, detailed and showy as I can muster if it passes one of the above. I have no interest if it doesn't.

That said, if there are bike-shaped art objests there and art-like bikes, I think that's great. Just like car shows, concept work is fine. I just want the audience (and the makers) to be honest about the overlap and distinctions.

I plan on showing as much of my test 1's as I can, with a possible test 2 if I have the time. Speaking of which- if anyone is looking for a bad ass track frame, I can make it all test 1's again.

[nicrump]

i respectfully disagree. having been to and shown at every nahbs, i'd say the opposite. i would say most of the stuff there just simply doesn't get pimped out so 1s and 0s viral as do the smaller percentage of "too far beyond the elemental functional simplicity of the bicycle" that is actually there.

oldpotatoe



Agree 101%.

Most of the stuff there goes too far beyond the elemental functional simplicity of the bicycle, and it doesn't speak to me as a cyclist. I've avoided wasting my time looking at the pictures for the last 2 year.

NAHBS is Bayliss gone wild--show your teets!

[victoryfactory]

This issue is overstated.
Think of NAHBS like a car show.
Concept cars and production models are on display.
And there are plenty of both.
Go to the show.
Or if you can't or don't want to go, get a better excuse
like: " I don't like hand built bikes"
Non issue.
VF

[EricEstlund]

I would agree. The press has to sell stuff, too- and it's "easier" to show flashy whiz-bang then the workaday bikes. There are a lot of good, solid, frill-lite bikes there. You are more likely to see these bikes on the show floor then in articles about the show.

[fourflys]

I can attest to Eric's bikes being beautiful and functional at the same time... when I went to NAHBS Indy (which may have been Eric's first show??), his bikes stood out to me... seeing pics from the last couple of shows, many bikes are beautiful but don't look "usuable"... the car show analogy may work depending on the show... are you talking about a Pebble Beach Concours type of show where all the cars are beautiful but never get driven, or are you talking about the local VW show where there are ultra-rare split window Bugs next to rat-rods and the majority of the cars are driven to the show? I think NAHBS Indy was more like the VW show where the the pics from the last couple of shows look more toward the Pebble Beach show... of course, that may be because the pics are only of the "concept" bikes...

[William]

As I stated in the OP, I have no idea, but the comments from Dazza in the video and then Old Potato this a.m. resonated with a few comments I had heard elsewhere. Basically along the lines that the show had "made a shift" so to speak to bling over bikes that could really be sold to customers.

Not trying to stir things, just asking an honest question. I appreciate all the comments.




William

[jr59]

It doesn't matter;

I'm still going to Denver this Feb.

OMG, did I just say me in Denver in the middle of the winter? :eek::eek:

Where is the frozen banana? :help:

[fourflys]

and if I was closer, I'd be there as well... ;)

[William]

It doesn't matter;


Where is the frozen banana? :help:

http://www.messentools.com/images/emoticones/frutas/www.MessenTools.com-Frutas-skate.gif




;):)
William

[bluesea]

i respectfully disagree. having been to and shown at every nahbs, i'd say the opposite. i would say most of the stuff there just simply doesn't get pimped out so 1s and 0s viral as do the smaller percentage of "too far beyond the elemental functional simplicity of the bicycle" that is actually there.


On the other hand I'll be attendance the next time it visits Las Vegas or the Bay Area with D Pegoretti there in person.

[oldpotatoe]

I can't speak for other exhibitors, but to get into my booth a bike must pass one of the following tests:

1. Is it pre-sold to an existing customer?
2. Would I feel comfortable selling it out of the booth to a real-world user?

I'm not adverse to making it as specific, detailed and showy as I can muster if it passes one of the above. I have no interest if it doesn't.

That said, if there are bike-shaped art objests there and art-like bikes, I think that's great. Just like car shows, concept work is fine. I just want the audience (and the makers) to be honest about the overlap and distinctions.

I plan on showing as much of my test 1's as I can, with a possible test 2 if I have the time. Speaking of which- if anyone is looking for a bad ass track frame, I can make it all test 1's again.



Yep, but I think you 'may' be in the minority. I know of 3 builders who have decided to no longer go..because they wanted to sell frames, but most were ohhh/ahhh over the art work. NOTHING wrong with that but it is more art show, these days, IMHO.

After selling no frames in 3 shows, they decided to not spend the $.

Ya know, I'm not trying to bad mouth the show, It has some amazing things on display but it's really is an opportunity for many to build and bring the 'show' type stuff, not necessarily the everyday, want you to buy this, type stuff. The Soulcraft owner, Sean Walling, always brings his 29er, dirty, to show it's a tool, not a trophy.

I think, looking at the exhibitors, it is kinda turning into a Interbike for consumers...

[efuentes]

think of nahbs like a car show.
Concept cars and production models are on display.
And there are plenty of both.


x2!

[EricEstlund]

Yep, but I think you 'may' be in the minority. I know of 3 builders who have decided to no longer go..because they wanted to sell frames, but most were ohhh/ahhh over the art work. NOTHING wrong with that but it is more art show, these days, IMHO.

After selling no frames in 3 shows, they decided to not spend the $.

I hear you. I'm not sure I'm in the minority on the floor, but I will say that the press exposure sometimes seems skewed.

The "value" of a show (from a builders perspective) can be hard to quantify. Despite doing similar things (build bikes) we all have different business models and different ways of connecting with our clientele (who are also infinitely varied). When I choose to assess my "success" at a show I do so over the course of 3-5 years, and try to factor in not only the press exposure I received there, but also how that press was filtered through assorted professional and social medial outlets. For me it's a bigger investment then what I see as immediate short term return.

That isn't to find fault with anyone who chooses a different path to the client and back again. They are certainly not inexpensive to attend. And that may be why we see "show bikes" in the concept bike ilk- builders may feel they need to go down that road to stand out.

I choose to believe every bike is the best I can do within the constraints of a clients needs, and that the work I do on every bike can stand out from the crowd on it's own merit. That takes a certain amount of hubris on my part. As a whole we builders tend toward the self deprecating, and it's hard to stand behind your everyday on that particular floor.

As an official challenge to anyone attending- please take and post photos of the bikes you would be interested in (for real). Flashy or not, show the bikes you feel really speak to you as a rider. At the end of the day, that's what will move builders to show one type of work over another.

[ultratoad]

Interesting stuff.... I had no idea.... I absolutely love the show, have been to 3 and my wife and I are planning on Denver.... If you have a thing for bikes, top quality craftsmanship, and beautiful paint-- this is the place to be.... Nothing like it.... AND, I think I have room for one more....

[David Kirk]

I've been doing the show for a bunch of years now and it feels to me like it has become more and better grounded over time. In my early days of doing NAHBS it felt like all too many bikes there were poorly built, poorly conceived, bling covered show specials that no one could, or would want to, actually ride. Frankly there was some really shiny junque there. There were of course folks making and showing bikes that were actually meant to be used but they got little attention and most of the press stood 3 deep to get a look at a bike that could never be used......and if it was used it might not ride straight or stay together.

i see it as a being much better now. I think the builders have matured and the press has followed suit and is less 'wowed' by bling. It feels like most of the bikes there are 'real' bikes meant to be taken out and enjoyed.

So while I still think there is room for improvement I also think things have come a long way and I'm happy about it.

My 2 centavos.

dave

[esldude]

As someone with a background in show cars, it is sometimes hard to separate bling from improved functioning. Often it can be both. Too expensive and labor intensive to be mainstream, yet actually a technical advance. In time, some of these advances do become common though a minority of them.

Flights of fancy do sometimes lead to genuine improvements. So don't judge the bling too hard. Some bling is just BS one upsmanship. Others are a vision of what might be not just possible, but desirable. You can't advance without breaking out of the mold. If only one in ten become worthwhile that is actually a pretty good percentage.

[merckx]

Get rid of the awards!

[victoryfactory]

Get rid of the awards!

Self congratulatory awards are always part of trade shows.
They drive innovation
They reward hard work
They help focus the exhibitors
They are great advertising for the winners

They also:
are sometimes political
penalize companies with radical stuff that hasn't been accepted yet
are usually controversial for the non winners

Ultimately these award reflect the tastes of the bestowers.
There are winners and losers. Some people seem to never break through.
I guess one's opinion depends on whether your friends win or not..

There is also the danger that people will build to the awards, once they know what the judges are looking for
and you end up with a skewed pedigree thing like a dog show. I hope that NAHBS doesn't fall into that trap.

But think of the shot in the arm some small builders must get when they win
"Best of Show" or some other award and see their sales increase as they use that
in their advertising.

VF

[EnginCycle]

It is very difficult to have this conversation without having some words misunderstood but I will give it a try.

I have shown at 5 of the last 6 shows. This past year I skipped Sacramento because I was renovating a house and just could not make it happen.

Here is my completely non scientific take on how it works. I have won awards at NAHBS. The years I won awards I sold more bikes than years I did not. This past year I did not attend NAHBS and had a lower year in sales than before. This is not all directly connected as I was not super focused on self promoting the brand since I was very busy working. It is a catch 22 since you want to work, work, work but if you keep your head down and never look up and see what is happening you get out of touch. I had a year of no real internet activity (which believe it or not is part of being a small manufacturer) and it might have been part of the low sales. I am now signed up for Denver and have found some routine in my schedule to get back to (shameless) self promotion. The combination of being listed on the NAHBS site and this activity has provided more interest in the brand and new activity on the site.

I always bring bikes that are sold to the show. Some are fancier than others. I admit to shifting the queue a few bikes here and there to make sure the full XTR bikes ends up at the show or the Di2 bike. Why not since it is representing your brand. I see no harm in having a slightly above average paint scheme as well. Since Richmond I have brought bikes in the raw. I thought that was a good mix of bling and here is my work before it gets coated with candy.

The show is what you make of it. Use it to sell bikes and it will sell bikes. Think it will sell bikes for you and you will get let down. Everything is about knowing how to make it happen.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

Cheers,
Drew

[roguedog]

I think the show is great.

It's a great marketing tool for small framebuilders to get their products some coverage. It gives small fb's more exposure to customers who may not even know of their existence.

As a consumer, it's great to see the craftspeople's works in person. There is nothing like seeing these bikes in person and speaking face to face with the builder. Having the most awesomest website and the most descriptive text, etc is great but nothing compares to talking to Dave K, Dave W, Kent Ericksen, Bill Holland, Eric E or the myriad of other builders and seeing their wares.

I think the show is great to bring awareness to the general public that small framebuilders exist and that you could, if you might be inclined, have a frame built for you for bout the same cost as a new Big Box bike. Of course, if one is inclined to spend more, there are framebuilders who can cater to that too :) Probably all of them :D

And while yes, some of the bikes might be show bikes or concept bikes, I don't think it detracts from the show as a whole. I think it adds to creative process. Who knows where one person's "crazy" idea might lead (.. thinking mtn bikes in the 90s here) As with all purchases, buyer beware and buyers should do their due diligence.

Yes, I'm a fan of the show because I think it gives these folks a venue to show off their goods to a much wider audience. It's up to the framebuilder if they wish to attend and if they feel the ROI is worth it, be it in word-of-mouth, brand exposure "dollars" or in actual lead generation. This is true in all product marketing.