Who is not using 23mm rims and why?

[bluesea]

Okay, just a different tack on a familiar question. I'm attracted to the *idea* of 23mm rims, but also like the ideal of consistency. Am not too hot with adjusting brakes when switching wheels. In other words, if I try 23mm and like it, will have to closet the Neutrons and get another set of 23mm.

My instinct is to get a set of Neutron Ultra to go with my current Neutron.

[dave thompson]

While I'm using the wide rims on all my bikes, my Wife isn't as her Calfee won't fit the wider tires that come as a benefit.

The brake adjustment when switching between wide and standard rims is no more difficult than when switching between other wheelsets. Very few wheels of any kind are a swap and drop operation as there are differences of how the brake pads align on the rim. If you have the same brand of rims, the problem is greatly diminished.

[Lewis Moon]

I'm not...because no one has given me any.....

[Gummee]

I have one pair of wide rim wheels and 7-8 pairs of 19mm wheels. That one wheelset gets moved to my primary road bike in the fall as the cross bikes get all the narrow wheelsets to make swapping back and forth easier.

I don't get the hype. They're wheels. Go round and round in circles. If there's a difference in cornering/ride/whatever its minute.

M

[eippo1]

Got the wide wheel set on my cross bike so I can run lower pressure. got 19's for my road bikes so I can swap my powertap around.

[ctcyclistbob]

Because I'm waiting for the Velocity A23 OC for the rear.

[rustychisel]

because they're mostly a triumph of marketing. Next year it will be something else.

[sjbraun]

I'm not because Chris King keeps sending my LBS the wrong hubs.

Maybe next week: CK R45 silver hubs, 24x28, Sapin Laser spokes, A23 silver rims and red nipples.

I don't plan to move them from one bike to another, so no issues with brake adjustment.

-Steve

[Louis]

Right now on my daily driver I have a just installed Velocity A23 with a PR-3 25 on my rear wheel, and a Topolino C19 (19mm wide clincher) with a Conti GP 4000 23 on the front. (have had the C19 on for a long time)

Biggest thing: to me the rear wheel + tire look noticeably fatter compared to what I'm used to seeing.

I did notice a change in feel compared to the rear Topolino C19 (the one with the busted alloy nipples) but to be honest, it just feels different, not necessarily massively different. Maybe if I had changed both wheels at once the impact would have been more dramatic. If I had to describe the difference, the A23 feels more "planted" than the C19. I'm not talking about during turns or anything, JRA.

My $0.02

Louis

[Joachim]

I ride tubulars 90% of the time and the wide rim dogma doesnt really apply to road tubulars IMO.

[Jason E]

I ride tubulars 90% of the time and the wide rim dogma doesnt really apply to road tubulars IMO.

Politely, why? Tire stays rounder in turns, so they say. Less deformation in the straights, so they say.

Again, not picking fights.

As to the OP, I started to swap stuff here and there. Got some from Ergott. Don't care enough one way or another and they all work really well, so I'm moving towards 23's.

[bozman]

I am not on my current bike but the next one will have HED Belgiums in all probability. One of my club mates is riding them and loves them. I won't be swapping them between bikes because my Strong has Record and the next bike will have DA.

[nooneline]

because they're mostly a triumph of marketing. Next year it will be something else.

Well, I disagree.
I was given a set of wheels and I thought, "I wonder if I can feel the difference." Usually, with a lot of parts, I don't notice changes. I've never felt a crank be stiff or not. Same with wheels. Frames? Sure. Handlebars? A bit. Saddles? Comfortable or not. But wheels? "I wonder if I'll feel any difference at all."

And I did. Because it makes a difference. More comfort, better handling.

[Joachim]

Politely, why? Tire stays rounder in turns, so they say. Less deformation in the straights, so they say.

Again, not picking fights.

As to the OP, I started to swap stuff here and there. Got some from Ergott. Don't care enough one way or another and they all work really well, so I'm moving towards 23's.

Dorman has done a great job of explaining it across the hall and has done a much better job than I can. But it comes down to the glue bed for one. You can ride wide-ish road tubulars (up to around 27mm) on a "narrow" tubular rim like a GP4, Nemesis, Escape, Mach2CD2, TB-25 etc and still get good adhesion. On a Major Tom not so much and there will be some glueless sections on the sides (the HED C2 tubular is a little better). Secondly, the "clinchular effect" that a wide clincher rim provide is partly due to the shape of tire, which approaches the shape of a tubular tire on a narrow tubular rim (the tubular tire doesn't have to "push" against a rim wall like a clincher does so you don't get a lightbulb shape). The wider tubular rims provide better adhesion for cross tubulars. Like I said...Dorman has done a much better job of explaning it.

[thwart]

well, i disagree.
Because it makes a difference. More comfort, better handling.
+1

[tv_vt]

I can't say I've seen an improvement in my one sample. I had a pair of DA 7700 hubs laced to Mavic Open Pros with Sapim CX Ray spokes. When the rims started creaking, I had the hubs rebuilt with HED C2 Belgium rims and Revolution/14-15-14 spokes.

I think the OP's with Sapim spokes was the nicer wheel, in almost all ways: faster, smoother, lighter.

[rustychisel]

Well, I disagree.
I was given a set of wheels and I thought, "I wonder if I can feel the difference." Usually, with a lot of parts, I don't notice changes. I've never felt a crank be stiff or not. Same with wheels. Frames? Sure. Handlebars? A bit. Saddles? Comfortable or not. But wheels? "I wonder if I'll feel any difference at all."

And I did. Because it makes a difference. More comfort, better handling.


It is as you wish and it's good that your experiences bear this out.

For me, no.
I did a lot of this kinda thing many years ago, but back then it was Araya 1 1/4 in rims versus tubular 3/4, mix n match tyres, trying to bend thin tyres on wider rims (an interesting experiment), running wider rims, thinner rims, wider on back etc etc. One things for sure, barring machined braking surfaces, the classic alloy rim was invented 40 something years ago. The perfect tyre is still coming.

In any event, changes felt are a result of cumulative action... wheels, tyres and so on. I agree, FWIW with you on cranksets, stems, stuff like that, but it is, of course, cumulative.

I note 2 things: I'm not a large rider, per se, around 80kg, so the benefits might not be there for me so much as some, and I'm not particularly hard on my equipment. And, if a casual cyclist spends $800 on a set of wheels they're determined to feel a difference, and perceive a benefit whether or not it exists.

[67-59]

I don't use 23s for the same reason I haven't "upgraded" my lugged steel frame to ti or carbon, or my Record 10 to Record EPS 11 - because I am perfectly happy with the way my bike rides and handles right now.

Is the latest thing "better"? Maybe, maybe not. But when you're perfectly happy with what you have, why switch?

Buzz Williams - Marquette's basketball coach - said it best when he turned down several bigger programs the last couple of years - "You don't mess with happy."

[Chance]

Don't have 23 mm rims on a road bike for two reasons. My existing rims (mostly around 19 mm wide) are still fine and don't plan to replace them until they wear out. And 23 mm tires work great for me at current weight so see little point in going to wider tires.

If available in right profile my next rims will be around 21 mm wide (more or less) to work with 23 mm clincher tires. Mostly to improve aesthetics and not ride.

[Jack Brunk]

I'm not.

[bismo37]

Funny you bring this up. I have 2 Belgium C2 wheelsets and a Neutron wheelset. I'm trying to sell the Neutrons and replace them with another C2 or A23 wheelset so I can easily interchange wheelsets between bikes w/o adjusting brakes.

I love the Neutrons. They are light, strong and damn pretty. But at my weight and on dirt/gravel, the 32-spoked C2 wheels feel more solid.

[ultraman6970]

I use tubulars, dont see a reason to use wider rims, I can glue pretty much anything in the tubular rims as joakim said. One rim does it all.

I have used clinchers and you can put wider tires in 23 mm wide clincher rims anyways, there is a limit but you can do it.

[slidey]

The perceived merits of the 23 over the 19's as I gather are mainly increased comfort, and fewer pinch flats. Neither of them are issues I need to address with an influx of money, anytime soon...so, for once, I'm not.

Okay, just a different tack on a familiar question. I'm attracted to the *idea* of 23mm rims, but also like the ideal of consistency. Am not too hot with adjusting brakes when switching wheels. In other words, if I try 23mm and like it, will have to closet the Neutrons and get another set of 23mm.

My instinct is to get a set of Neutron Ultra to go with my current Neutron.

[oldpotatoe]

I have one pair of wide rim wheels and 7-8 pairs of 19mm wheels. That one wheelset gets moved to my primary road bike in the fall as the cross bikes get all the narrow wheelsets to make swapping back and forth easier.

I don't get the hype. They're wheels. Go round and round in circles. If there's a difference in cornering/ride/whatever its minute.

M

What he said. In spite of the 'hype', I don't think the wide rim thing is an 'aaaahhhhh' moment.
I think a wider tire and less air does 'almost' the same thing for most who either don't really care or are not sensitive enough to notice a big improvement.

I have wet weather clinchers, DT 585 rims, 25c tires(Vittoria Zaffiro), run about 95 psi for this .1 offa ton rider and gee, they work just fine.

[oldpotatoe]

Politely, why? Tire stays rounder in turns, so they say. Less deformation in the straights, so they say.

Again, not picking fights.

As to the OP, I started to swap stuff here and there. Got some from Ergott. Don't care enough one way or another and they all work really well, so I'm moving towards 23's.

Tubulars are round by design. Which rim you glue them onto makes no difference. Wider rim has a bigger seat, gentlier arc, to glue but doesn't make the tire any rounder..

[stephenmarklay]

I had a set and thought they rode great. But the actual build was sh*t and I returned them. I plan on going that way again.

Just curious, are you folks running a 23mm tire or 25mm tire? And if you are running a 23mm tire is the width (to fit in a tight rear stay) the same as a narrower rim with a 23mm tire?

[dave thompson]

Stephen: To answer your question; a tire mounted on a 'wide' rim will be wider than it was on a 'narrow' rim. How much of an increase largely depends on the actual width of the tire in the first place. An example would be Continental and Michelin tires. Contis generally measure less than their stated width on a standard rim and will have a smaller increase in width when used on a wide rim. Michilens usually are wider than their stated width and will measure wider on wide rims.

[stephenmarklay]

Stephen: To answer your question; a tire mounted on a 'wide' rim will be wider than it was on a 'narrow' rim. How much of an increase largely depends on the actual width of the tire in the first place. An example would be Continental and Michelin tires. Contis generally measure less than their stated width on a standard rim and will have a smaller increase in width when used on a wide rim. Michilens usually are wider than their stated width and will measure wider on wide rims.


Thanks Dave -as always.

I thought that was true but I was making myself believe that the profile will be flatter on the sides but the widest point would not. I can see how that would not be true so I appreciate it.

[ergott]

My 2 cents

A wider rim changes the profile of the tire and I think this explains the more "planted" feel in handling.

Same tire does have more volume so less pressure should be used. Of course it is cheaper to simply buy a bigger tire than a set of wheels.

Using a 23mm tire with a wider rim allows for a smooth transition from tire to rim so aerodynamics will improve. This is less important if the rim shape doesn't continue to improve the airflow after that. A rim that is similar in concept to a Firecrest clincher or Enve Smart clincher in alloy would be ideal.

I've ridden wide rims with 23mm tires and 25mm tires. With a 25mm Pro3 Race the ride is incredible. It's almost impossible to pinch flat that combo on the road with the appropriate pressure. There's just a lot of volume there to soak the road up. The Michelin Pro tires are excellent for ride quality.

One thing to consider is that people that buy a set of the modern carbon tubulars are better off with wider alloy rims if they are swapping back and forth on the same bike. I simply use the barrel adjuster on the brake when I go from Smart 8.9s to my alloy rims.

I would sum up the experience like this. It won't blow your mind. It's a subtle difference. I've never heard anyone say it made the ride worse only better or at worst the same.

With regards to tubular tires...

If you look at how 23mm tires mate to a Smart rim for example (I'm sure Zipp or Hed might be similar), the tire sits deeper into the rim. Some wider rims support more of the tire sidewall so there is less deflection in cornering. The feel is noticeably different. It depends on the radius of the tire bed.

[charliedid]

I am not, because the road bike I currently ride is a bit of an all-rounder (Gunnar Sport) and I like the Velocity Aerohead O/C rear option. It's also insignificantly lighter...:eek:

I rode the exact same wheelset built with A23 rims and for the life of me I could not tell the diference at all. Both sets (same builder) White Ind. hubs, 28/32 3x 14g DT brass nips. Same tubes/tires and pressure. Maybe pairing tires is really important but that's all too much time and worry for me.

[thwart]

I've ridden wide rims with 23mm tires and 25mm tires. With a 25mm Pro3 Race the ride is incredible. It's almost impossible to pinch flat that combo on the road with the appropriate pressure. There's just a lot of volume there to soak the road up. The Michelin Pro tires are excellent for ride quality.
Agree completely.

Another point, which I think is pertinent, is tire wear.

Up to this year I had avoided Mich PR3's. I ride with someone who was experiencing a lot of flats and cuts, and wasn't getting more than 1200-1500 miles on his rear tire (hilly terrain) while using the 23 mm PR3's, run at 115 psi (rider weight 170 lbs) on Ksyrium SL's. He loved the ride and cornering, though.

I stumbled on a very good deal on the PR3's in 25 mm this spring, ran them on Hed C2's at 75 front/85 rear (rider weight 150 lbs), and had one flat this season. Rear tire was switched out at just short of 3K miles...

How much of this difference is the 23 mm rim, who knows.

[93legendti]

I am not using 23's. I converted 5 of my road wheel sets to tubeless and couldn't be happier. I have way too many wheel sets in great shape to dump them for new, wider wheels.

[SBash]

I've built many wheels in my time having had a bike shop in the past. IMO, Biggest difference in 23's is handling in turns...superb. Brake adjustment between the 19's and 23's is a minor issue.

[SteveV0983]

I had been using Mavic Open Pros in one form or another for 18 years (started when they used to call it the Open 4) and just last week switched to a set of Hed Belgium C2s with Velocity Race hubs and Wheelsmith spokes (28/32 3x). The wheels were built beautifully by echelon_john and I have to say that I find they ride noticeably nicer than the OpenPros. This is with the same Vredestein Fortezza TriComp 23mm tires and I just lowered the pressure by 5 psi front and back. I wasn't sure if I would feel the difference, by going over some of the exact same rough roads that I have been riding over for 6 years felt totally different. They are very stable feeling and corner better than the OpenPros. But the biggest difference I found was how well they smoothed out my ride. Personally, I'm glad I went with the wider rim and John did a fantastic job with the build.

[khjr]

I had been using Mavic Open Pros in one form or another for 18 years (started when they used to call it the Open 4) and just last week switched to a set of Hed Belgium C2s with Velocity Race hubs and Wheelsmith spokes (28/32 3x). The wheels were built beautifully by echelon_john and I have to say that I find they ride noticeably nicer than the OpenPros. This is with the same Vredestein Fortezza TriComp 23mm tires and I just lowered the pressure by 5 psi front and back. I wasn't sure if I would feel the difference, by going over some of the exact same rough roads that I have been riding over for 6 years felt totally different. They are very stable feeling and corner better than the OpenPros. But the biggest difference I found was how well they smoothed out my ride. Personally, I'm glad I went with the wider rim and John did a fantastic job with the build.

Same bike / same tire / same roads but different feeling. This would be about as reliable a comparison as one could hope for. I suppose that you could have tried your old rims with the lower pressure first.... Perhaps you could pump up the tires on your new rims another 5 psi and see if they still feel different?

[SteveV0983]

Same bike / same tire / same roads but different feeling. This would be about as reliable a comparison as one could hope for. I suppose that you could have tried your old rims with the lower pressure first.... Perhaps you could pump up the tires on your new rims another 5 psi and see if they still feel different?

Everyone says to drop the pressure in the 23mm rims, so I did to get an initial impression. In fact, the Hed rim tape inside the Hed rim says to inflate between 85 and 105. I have an older set of Fortezza TriComps on the old OpenPros now and they definitely measure wider on the Heds. I don't have a caliper, but eyeballing a metal ruler looks to be about 3-4mm wider, which makes perfect sense.
But in all honesty, I have never been anal about pressure. I used to run the TriComps on the OpenPros at anywhere from 95 to 105 and they always felt the same to me. The only time I ever felt a difference was when I was dumb enough to read the TriComp box and try them at 145. They felt very hard right up to the point where I hit something so small I never saw it, yet it blew out the side wall. So then, not having a tire boot on me, I put a piece of palm frond inside the tire and pumped it up to about 70 to get home. That felt pretty mushy. That's when I learned that I should just stick somewhere around 100. And carry a Park tire boot. The Heds were at 92f/96r according to my pump (it's a Topeak and it has 5 divisions between 80 and 100, so that's where I'm getting the 92/96 from) and they were noticeably different than any combo I ever had on the OpenPros.
But I do plan on doing my next ride back up around 100 to see what difference it makes. That will pretty much be an exact comparison with the only difference being the rims. I'll post back after the ride.