Vaughters outs three of his own riders

[BumbleBeeDave]

Man ,this crap just doesn't stop.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/vaughters-outs-garmin-riders-for-past-doping-in-online-forum_237650

I just hope the three knew it was coming.

BBD

[Louis]

It would be simpler to just post the list of names of guys who did not use PEDs.

Since we assume that most of them did.

[akelman]

I have never used PEDs. Well, except that one time. Wait, are bran muffins considered PEDs?

[G-Reg]

JV is a DB! Almost as much as Lance.

[Wilkinson4]

What a bunch of dopes. Seems like the red blood cell code of silence (Think Blue Code) has been shattered. I expect next we will confessions en masse, cause it is the cool thing to do.

Can't wait for the Matt Stone/Trey Parker screenplay.

mIKE

[54ny77]

gee, why doesn't someone "out" jv?

now wouldn't that be fun.

what a schmuck.

glass houses indeed....

[54ny77]

Pastry Enabled Desserts?

I have never used PEDs. Well, except that one time. Wait, are bran muffins considered PEDs?

[Louis]

I have never used PEDs. Well, except that one time. Wait, are bran muffins considered PEDs?

No, but those "special" brownies are.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I believe he already outed himself.

BBD

gee, why doesn't someone "out" jv?

now wouldn't that be fun.

what a schmuck.

glass houses indeed....

[MattTuck]

Getting the popcorn, pulling up a chair.


Of any DS in the sport, side burns was the most likely to do this.

[akelman]

No, but those "special" brownies are.

I have no idea what you're...wait, what was I saying? Hang on, have you ever looked at the back of your hand? No, I mean really looked at it? For a few hours? Sorry, what were we talking about?

[wc1934]

Man ,this crap just doesn't stop.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/vaughters-outs-garmin-riders-for-past-doping-in-online-forum_237650

I just hope the three knew it was coming.

BBD

“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice.
I hope he discussed this with them. What will the fallout be for them?

[Fixed]

Something about these stories reminds of kiss and tell stories
Just seems a little odd to me .
Cheers :fight:

[67-59]

It would be simpler to just post the list of names of guys who did not use PEDs.

Since we assume that most of them did.

I use DZNuts, so I guess I'm not on the clean list....:eek:

[54ny77]

"This one time, in the Paris Roubaix showers, I...umm..."

Something about these stories reminds of kiss and tell stories
Just seems a little odd to me .
Cheers :fight:

[mgm777]

The timing appears to be contrived and strategic. Not a surprise, but connecting the dots, nine of the "Ten who testified" to the grand jury, I'm guessing are:
1.JV
2.CVV
3.TD
4. DZ
5. LL
6. GH
7. TH
8. FL
9. FA
10. ??

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'm the tenth one. :eek:

BBD

[MattTuck]

The timing appears to be contrived and strategic. Not a surprise, but connecting the dots, nine of the "Ten who testified" to the grand jury, I'm guessing are:
1.JV
2.CVV
3.TD
4. DZ
5. LL
6. GH
7. TH
8. FL
9. FA
10. ??

Frankie's wife.

[djg21]

The timing appears to be contrived and strategic. Not a surprise, but connecting the dots, nine of the "Ten who testified" to the grand jury, I'm guessing are:
1.JV
2.CVV
3.TD
4. DZ
5. LL
6. GH
7. TH
8. FL
9. FA
10. ??

I was thinking along the same lines. Unless Vaughters is both incredibly self-centered and incredibly stupid, there is no way that he'd out his riders without them knowing in advance and being complicit.

[CunegoFan]

I cannot wait for Tommy D to give details about his bad transfusion. That story has been floating around for a while.

Bruyneel's doping operation nearly killed him then he was treated like crap when it affected his health. Nice.

[54ny77]

Perhaps pre-emptive PR on his part, all geared towards saving his own sideburns.

I hope the team survives no matter what happens. They are entertaining to watch, if only because it's an American team on the world stage achieving success. That's good stuff.

I was thinking along the same lines. Unless Vaughters is both incredibly self-centered and incredibly stupid, there is no way that he'd out his riders without them knowing in advance and being complicit.

[rice rocket]

I thought these riders already were serving their 6 month bans? Why is he telling us this again?

[G-Reg]

The timing appears to be contrived and strategic. Not a surprise, but connecting the dots, nine of the "Ten who testified" to the grand jury, I'm guessing are:
1.JV
2.CVV
3.TD
4. DZ
5. LL
6. GH
7. TH
8. FL
9. FA
10. MB

Not sure he had true access to the full details, but given his timely retirement announcement, I'm betting that doper #10 is Michael Barry

[MattTuck]

Perhaps pre-emptive PR on his part, all geared towards saving his own sideburns.

I hope the team survives no matter what happens. They are entertaining to watch, if only because it's an American team on the world stage achieving success. That's good stuff.

Any success they have is cancelled out if you listen to JV's post race self aggrandizing and pompous race strategy discussion.

[CunegoFan]

I thought these riders already were serving their 6 month bans? Why is he telling us this again?

There are no bans yet. Someone leaked a story based on guesswork to the press. The paper that Bruyneel writes a regular column for was the main recipient.

Some of these guys will likely receive the minimum ban, which is 1/4th of two years.

[mgm777]

Not sure he had true access to the full details, but given his timely retirement announcement, I'm betting that doper #10 is Michael Barry

That is my guess as well.

[CunegoFan]

The timing appears to be contrived and strategic. Not a surprise, but connecting the dots, nine of the "Ten who testified" to the grand jury, I'm guessing are:
1.JV
2.CVV
3.TD
4. DZ
5. LL
6. GH
7. TH
8. FL
9. FA
10. ??

Jemisen was one but he appears to have gotten cold feet.

Andy Bishop talked to the press about doping at Motorola. Shortly thereafter the USADA claimed that more riders had contacted them asking to help.

[Louis]

Gee, where have I heard this before ??? :no:

Erranis Says She'll Cut Ties With Banned Doctor
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW YORK (AP) — U.S. Open semifinalist Sara Errani says she will stop working with Luis Garcia del Moral, a former member of Lance Armstrong's medical staff who was recently handed a lifetime ban by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency.

Del Moral also worked with a handful of tennis players.

Last month, the International Tennis Federation said it would recognize the USADA ban. In an interview after her quarterfinal win Wednesday, Errani said the ITF told her she could go to del Moral if she wanted, but she said she would stop.

"Now, his name is not a good name," she said.

Del Moral was one of three members on Armstrong's medical staff handed lifetime suspensions, accused by USADA of participating in a doping conspiracy on Armstrong's teams during part or all of the cyclist's seven Tour de France victories.

[Vientomas]

Just a bunch of disgruntled former employees with an ax to grind?

[Grant McLean]

Not sure he had true access to the full details, but given his timely retirement announcement, I'm betting that doper #10 is Michael Barry

I very much doubt it. Barry never rode the Tour de France with Postal.

His retirement is much more likely related to spending at lot of 2012
in a wheelchair, and then re-breaking his arm for the second time
this year in the sprint finish at Wallonia at the end of July.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/more/2012/07/24/cyclist_barry_ponders_future/

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/barry-breaks-arm-in-tour-de-wallonie-crash?ns_campaign=news&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_ source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

-g

[Bill D]

I very much doubt it. Barry never rode the Tour de France with Postal.

His retirement is much more likely related to spending at lot of 2012
in a wheelchair, and then re-breaking his arm for the second time
this year in the sprint finish at Wallonia at the end of July.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/more/2012/07/24/cyclist_barry_ponders_future/

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/barry-breaks-arm-in-tour-de-wallonie-crash?ns_campaign=news&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_ source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

-g

What about Kevin Livingston? Hamilton apparently is saying KL was one of the USPS riders who got EPO from Lance's motorcycle-riding accomplice.

[tiger]

Vaughters really stands by his riders...not. It is like he is deciding to make a very personal and probably emotionally painful thing they allegedly participated in public just because he decided to make his own foibles public. I predict no one will want to ride for him after this...not because he is now against doping, but because he will never be trusted to put his riders ahead of his own interests.

[LegendRider]

Vaughters admitted on Twitter that he accidentally outed the riders. That's really embarrassing misstep.

This was sheer stupidity. No excuses. I just got too wrapped up in debate.

[don'TreadOnMe]

Old news for anybody that's been paying attention.
What's w/everybody getting upset or concerned that the sausage factory is so unsavory?
Here's a little something from a very public www site in 2006 (who can you pick out?):

[dancinkozmo]

I very much doubt it. Barry never rode the Tour de France with ...

-g

I dunno.....


P.K Okay, that’s fine. There is one last question. A lot of people were puzzled when you named Michael Barry in the emails and a month later, May 2010, he posted the following response on his website: I am shocked at the allegations from Floyd Landis. A few years ago, I cycled the Vuelta a Espana race and trained two days prior to the Vuelta with him – one 6 hour ride and one two hour ride. I did not share or use any banned substances such as EPO when I was riding with him and am dismayed at his allegations. Landis is either lying or has mistaken me for someone else. Did you mistake him for someone else?

*

F.L Nobody is more or less guilty than anyone else here but it’s time to tell the truth. I understand the difficulty and the risk in admitting to doping. I am in no place to judge because I denied it for years as well. Michael Barry is going to do what he feels he needs to in order to protect himself, but unfortunately in this instance his choice is to do what I did and lie. I hope for his sake that someday he can tell the truth and feel free.*

[William]

"No, really, I was forced to do it!!"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x9585MubAY0/S52MD-0lsfI/AAAAAAAAAN4/-rwQHdNNXU0/s320/crazy-dog.jpg






:rolleyes:;)
William

[victoryfactory]

"Outing" Drug users is one thing, no big deal especially since
most were already punished or suspected.
but JV is also into character assassination.

That's the real nutty thing imo.

He just punched his ticket for a room in the retired pro
cyclist's psycho home...

And he will have a lot of company

Ha Ha Ha Ha

[CunegoFan]

Vaughters admitted on Twitter that he accidentally outed the riders. That's really embarrassing misstep.

This was sheer stupidity. No excuses. I just got too wrapped up in debate.

That what JV says, but with him you never know. He has repeatedly stated that publicly naming names is of no value to the sport. He has counseled riders to be honest with anit-doping authorities but vague with the public. Did he really make a mistake?

In as little as a week the USADA will release its report to the UCI, WADA, and the public. Vaughters might as well soften the ground a little. It is not like it is a secret that he and his riders doped and are witnesses for the USADA. With all the stuff coming out of Hamilton's book, what is the impact of a bit more added to the pile. People will focus more on Hamilton's information about Armstrong and Riis rather than another few riders who doped.

[oldguy00]

If Michael Barry were not from Canada, no one would keep assuming he is innocent. People here like him because he seems like a nice guy (probably is!), his dad is a well respected frame builder, etc.
Doesn't change a thing. They all did it. You don't place 7th at Worlds riding clean in a peleton stacked with EPO.

Now that Vaughters is naming names, maybe folks will understand the term 'witch hunt' with regards to Lance. He was one of many, and he didn't put a gun to anyone's head to force them to dope. Anyone could have walked away.

With regards to Vaughters 'accidentally' outing his riders......please.....he knows what he is doing. Better the news come from him first, than from USADA in a few weeks. Easier for them to manage the PR this way.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this is probably calculated. JV may be a bit pompous, but he's not THAT stupid. This gives riders a chance to start reputation damage control without the inquiry avalanche that would surely be almost instantaneous when the report breaks.

It also gives him an expanded opportunity to safeguard his teams and explain again and again in the media that yes, these guys doped in the past, but his whole idea in starting his team was to give riders who did want to race clean the chance that he never had--to save them from having to make the decisions he had to make in order to fit into the culture. It gives him time to emphasize that these riders may have been involved, but they are now racing clean and have done so ever ysince they signed up with him.

The next several weeks will continue to be interesting. I anticipate the USADA report will be VERY damaging to Armstrong and his cronies because it will answer all the critics who have demanded USADA put its money where its mouth is and will do a lot to torpedo once and for all Lance's PR machine's claims of a witch hunt or vendetta.

BBD

[Grant McLean]

If Michael Barry were not from Canada, no one would keep assuming he is innocent. People here like him because he seems like a nice guy (probably is!), his dad is a well respected frame builder, etc.
Doesn't change a thing. They all did it. You don't place 7th at Worlds riding clean in a peleton stacked with EPO.

Personally, I'm not assuming he is innocent, but i'm not willing to assume
he's guilty based on a 7th in the Worlds at his home race where he rode
invisibly as a non-favorite. (on a course that suited him perfectly)

I'm not in the "they all did it" category, more like there was an "A" team
and a "B" team at most of the top squads, and certain guys that are useful
to the stars got juiced to help them win.

Why is it that Barry never got selected for the Tour over many seasons
at Postal? As a fan of his I found it frustrating it always appeared he was
never even considered for selection on the Tour team, always stacked with
guys who then performed super-human roles. For anyone who followed
Michael's career, it's a real stretch to say his performances ever indicated
that he was doping.

It's understandable that people believe "they all doped", but my view is more
nuanced than that. For sure there are guys who refused, or there wasn't
money to dope them. I don't think it's right to paint them all with the same
brush. I have no way of knowing whether Michael doped or not, but I
don't think any of us do.

-g

[rugbysecondrow]

I have never used PEDs. Well, except that one time. Wait, are bran muffins considered PEDs?

Little blue pills don't count. :banana:

[Wilkinson4]

I have no way of knowing whether Michael doped or not, but I don't think any of us do.
-g

I want to believe that he didn't, but I just don't know anymore. Damn this sport for turning us all into cynics.

mIKE

[dancinkozmo]

Grant also believes in santa and bigfoot :)

[Climb01742]

Personally, I'm not assuming he is innocent, but i'm not willing to assume
he's guilty based on a 7th in the Worlds at his home race where he rode
invisibly as a non-favorite. (on a course that suited him perfectly)

I'm not in the "they all did it" category, more like there was an "A" team
and a "B" team at most of the top squads, and certain guys that are useful
to the stars got juiced to help them win.

Why is it that Barry never got selected for the Tour over many seasons
at Postal? As a fan of his I found it frustrating it always appeared he was
never even considered for selection on the Tour team, always stacked with
guys who then performed super-human roles. For anyone who followed
Michael's career, it's a real stretch to say his performances ever indicated
that he was doping.

It's understandable that people believe "they all doped", but my view is more
nuanced than that. For sure there are guys who refused, or there wasn't
money to dope them. I don't think it's right to paint them all with the same
brush. I have no way of knowing whether Michael doped or not, but I
don't think any of us do.

-g

if michael ever writes his story, and the story of bike racing at his level in his time, now that would be a story worth reading not the least because it will be so well written. based on the writings of his i've read, my hunch -- and it's purely a hunch -- is that he did not dope. but who knows? either way, i'd love to read why he didn't, or why he did. he seems like a very bright, nuanced guy.

[LegendRider]

I have never used PEDs. Well, except that one time. Wait, are bran muffins considered PEDs?

Bran muffins are fine, but poppy seed ones can get you in trouble...

[harryblack]

Seen this yet? Steve Tilford outs Danielson as a CAREER doper, from ** college ** onward--

http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

In outline, it's nothing I'd not heard but the details... whew!

Weren't folks trying to blame Johan et al for "Tommy D's" health problems? Granted, I think that comes from Danieson's ex-, pro cyclist Kristin Johnson, and it's likely SHE didn't know and thus blamed who was at hand... I'm not going to gloat here but it was some 'terrific' stage race ya'll had out in Colorado, wasn't it? Horrible parcours (unforgivable) and what a swell home team.

Suprised nobody's mentioned Danielson and his "relationship" with ex-teammate Danny Pate but maybe Vaughters will share that mess for us too eventually. (I like Danny Pate a lot btw.)

Man ,this crap just doesn't stop.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/vaughters-outs-garmin-riders-for-past-doping-in-online-forum_237650

I just hope the three knew it was coming.

BBD

[tuxbailey]

Ladies and gentlemen,

The domino effect is here and the flood gate is open. I am just a passionless sideline observer.

Where is that coupon for the movie theater pop corn?

[firerescuefin]

Personally, I'm not assuming he is innocent, but i'm not willing to assume
he's guilty based on a 7th in the Worlds at his home race where he rode
invisibly as a non-favorite. (on a course that suited him perfectly)

I'm not in the "they all did it" category, more like there was an "A" team
and a "B" team at most of the top squads, and certain guys that are useful
to the stars got juiced to help them win.

Why is it that Barry never got selected for the Tour over many seasons
at Postal? As a fan of his I found it frustrating it always appeared he was
never even considered for selection on the Tour team, always stacked with
guys who then performed super-human roles. For anyone who followed
Michael's career, it's a real stretch to say his performances ever indicated
that he was doping.

It's understandable that people believe "they all doped", but my view is more
nuanced than that. For sure there are guys who refused, or there wasn't
money to dope them. I don't think it's right to paint them all with the same
brush. I have no way of knowing whether Michael doped or not, but I
don't think any of us do.

-g


This


...and agree with the sentiment that this was calculated...just like JVs NYTs coming out revelation. He's getting his folks out in front of this...and trying to deflect as much as he can.

[goonster]

He's getting his folks out in front of this...and trying to deflect as much as he can.

And what's wrong with that? The alternative is continued denials.

Since time immemorial, teams have (directly or indirectly) pressured riders to dope. Now there is pressure to come clean. The sport can't move on unless the past is addressed.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The only thing I'm sure of after reading it, though, is that Mr. Tilford's Bitter-Meter is definitely pegged. Does he savage others like this on his blog if he dislikes them? Trying to get some persepctive here--is a rant like this unusual for him?

BBD

Seen this yet? Steve Tilford outs Danielson as a CAREER doper, from ** college ** onward--

http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

In outline, it's nothing I'd not heard but the details... whew!

Weren't folks trying to blame Johan et al for "Tommy D's" health problems? Granted, I think that comes from Danieson's ex-, pro cyclist Kristin Johnson, and it's likely SHE didn't know and thus blamed who was at hand... I'm not going to gloat here but it was some 'terrific' stage race ya'll had out in Colorado, wasn't it? Horrible parcours (unforgivable) and what a swell home team.

Suprised nobody's mentioned Danielson and his "relationship" with ex-teammate Danny Pate but maybe Vaughters will share that mess for us too eventually. (I like Danny Pate a lot btw.)

[fiamme red]

The only thing I'm sure of after reading it, though, is that Mr. Tilford's Bitter-Meter is definitely pegged.That was my reaction too. He bears a grudge against TD and was glad to have an opportunity to attack him.

I'd take Tilford's rants with a grain of salt.

[firerescuefin]

And what's wrong with that? The alternative is continued denials.

Since time immemorial, teams have (directly or indirectly) pressured riders to dope. Now there is pressure to come clean. The sport can't move on unless the past is addressed.

Nothing wrong with...seems pretty smart..I was answering those that thought JV was acting like a fool.

[flydhest]

I have no idea what you're...wait, what was I saying? Hang on, have you ever looked at the back of your hand? No, I mean really looked at it? For a few hours? Sorry, what were we talking about?

see, this sort of thing has no place on this forum. Subtle humor that makes me chuckle more than once???

We need rude, outlandish, insulting comments that are aimed at specific individuals.

[67-59]

Now that Vaughters is naming names, maybe folks will understand the term 'witch hunt' with regards to Lance. He was one of many, and he didn't put a gun to anyone's head to force them to dope. Anyone could have walked away.

+100000000000000

The only reason they're going after Lance now is that he's a big name, which carries big fame to whomever "brings him down."

[CunegoFan]

The only thing I'm sure of after reading it, though, is that Mr. Tilford's Bitter-Meter is definitely pegged. Does he savage others like this on his blog if he dislikes them? Trying to get some persepctive here--is a rant like this unusual for him?

BBD

I don't read Tilford regularly, usually when I get sent links to particular posts he has made, but I don't recall this level of vitriol. Usually his stuff that I have read is level headed and well reasoned. He really hates TD.

I think he went off the deep end with this. Some of it makes little sense. TD placed third in collegiate nationals and has no talent? His comments section is filled with people who say they were getting killed by TD when he was sixteen. TD rode top ten in the Vuelta during the Lance era when he was doping. He can still ride top ten in the Tour now with the bio passport, overall power levels being down quite a bit, and on Slipstream. I have a hard time buying that TD has no talent.

Doping on Saturn? Sure. The team was a cesspool. Blood doping when he was sixteen? I don't think so.

I think we are getting a taste of the *****storm that will come. The guys who went to Europe were super jacked compared to the domestic pros. For the most part, they were super talented and super jacked, so they were killing people when they came back to race in the U.S. Any clean riders trying to eek out a living in the U.S. scene have a right to be angry. But TD has pretty sparse palmares. Leipheimer is a different story.

[CunegoFan]

Now that Vaughters is naming names, maybe folks will understand the term 'witch hunt' with regards to Lance. He was one of many, and he didn't put a gun to anyone's head to force them to dope. Anyone could have walked away.


It is not a witch hunt when he IS a witch. Armstrong is not just another doper. He trafficked in dope, facilitated doping, intimidated witnesses, encouraged doping, coerced ridered to dope, fired people from his team who would not dope, bribed the UCI, enforced omerta, ratted on other riders so the UCI would eliminate them from TdF contention, kept enemies lists of journalists who questioned the myth, punished journalists who associated with people on his enemies list, and the list goes on. He is guilty of full spectrum corruption.

Armstrong is the Whitey Bulger of cycling.

[goonster]

The only reason they're going after Lance now is that he's a big name, which carries big fame to whomever "brings him down."
No, they're going after Lance because taking him down will drain the swamp and change the landscape of the sport.

[Dave B]

I don't read Tilford regularly, usually when I get sent links to particular posts he has made, but I don't recall this level of vitriol. Usually his stuff that I have read is level headed and well reasoned. He really hates TD.

I think he went off the deep end with this. Some of it makes little sense. TD placed third in collegiate nationals and has no talent? His comments section is filled with people who say they were getting killed by TD when he was sixteen. TD rode top ten in the Vuelta during the Lance era when he was doping. He can still ride top ten in the Tour now with the bio passport, overall power levels being down quite a bit, and on Slipstream. I have a hard time buying that TD has no talent.

Doping on Saturn? Sure. The team was a cesspool. Blood doping when he was sixteen? I don't think so.
I think we are getting a taste of the *****storm that will come. The guys who went to Europe were super jacked compared to the domestic pros. For the most part, they were super talented and super jacked, so they were killing people when they came back to race in the U.S. Any clean riders trying to eek out a living in the U.S. scene have a right to be angry. But TD has pretty sparse palmares. Leipheimer is a different story.

It happens man.

Maybe not TD, but I have known kids who have.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It is not a witch hunt when he IS a witch. Armstrong is not just another doper. He trafficked in dope, facilitated doping, intimidated witnesses, encouraged doping, coerced ridered to dope, fired people from his team who would not dope, bribed the UCI, enforced omerta, ratted on other riders so the UCI would eliminate them from TdF contention, kept enemies lists of journalists who questioned the myth, punished journalists who associated with people on his enemies list, and the list goes on. He is guilty of full spectrum corruption.

Armstrong is the Whitey Bulger of cycling.

I'd say this is a pretty complete list. Up to now he's been the Teflon Don" of cycling. But no more.

I think we need to be careful, though, to view rant's like Tilford's with just a bit of skepticism. Part of the coming public storm is going to be some airoing of long-suppressed bitterness from many riders who have felt for a long time--or are just now finding out from all this--that they could have really competed effectively. The could have had more successful careers--or any careers at all--if the sport had been even close to clean.

BBD

[firerescuefin]

It is not a witch hunt when he IS a witch. Armstrong is not just another doper. He trafficked in dope, facilitated doping, intimidated witnesses, encouraged doping, coerced ridered to dope, fired people from his team who would not dope, bribed the UCI, enforced omerta, ratted on other riders so the UCI would eliminate them from TdF contention, kept enemies lists of journalists who questioned the myth, punished journalists who associated with people on his enemies list, and the list goes on. He is guilty of full spectrum corruption.

Armstrong is the Whitey Bulger of cycling.

bingo

[harryblack]

Fiamme, I'd reconsider that... TD's blood has been a topic of much interest and speculation for YEARS-- well before he was ever a glimmer in LA/JB's eye... It's also possible, I think, for Tilford to dislike a person (TD, JV) and a situation (JV & Garmin self-righteousness) without bitterness per se...

Whether or not Steve has ALL the facts-- which only Danielson himself knows-- the circumstantial evidence is abundant...

And if folks prefer the 'good guy' image we've ALL been burned by (myself included, insofar as certain U.S. domestic pros I believed-- hoped-- were clean)...

Look back to Tom Danielson and his coach Rick Crawford.

Look to team-wide doping on Mercury...

Look to team-wide doping on Saturn...

etc etc

That Danielson could be a major doper AND self-defeating head case (with some decent genetics, bike engine wise) are not at all mutually exclusive.

That was my reaction too. He bears a grudge against TD and was glad to have an opportunity to attack him.

I'd take Tilford's rants with a grain of salt.

[67-59]

No, they're going after Lance because taking him down will drain the swamp and change the landscape of the sport.

Right. Because there was no doping before Lance, and there will be no doping after him.:rolleyes:

Curious -- is there oxygen in your universe?

[goonster]

Curious -- is there oxygen in your universe?
Stay classy, my friend.

[67-59]

Stay classy, my friend.

Says the person who claims taking down Lance will "drain the swamp."

Hi, pot. I'm kettle.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . please keep it classy and the Evil Mods will continue to let this run. :rolleyes:

BBD

[CunegoFan]

It happens man.

Maybe not TD, but I have known kids who have.

But if TD was blood doping at sixteen then it would throw a wrench in Tilford's timeline of TD's sudden improvement. TD making a big leap upward when he went to Crawford makes sense. Showing zero ability before sounds like Tilford's hate getting the better of him.

People are focusing on what Tilford wrote about Tommy D., but what about JV? He essentially says JV and his team are a fraud, TD has so little no talent that he must still be doping, and JV is covering for him. While I have some issues with Vaughters, I don't think he secretly running a doping program.

[harryblack]

Uh, did we watch a different race here or what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGpW-88VioQ

Please explain how "bingo" relates to Mapei 1-2-3.

1f those #s aren't impressive, how about 1991?

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/17/sports/cycling-illness-forces-entire-pdm-team-to-quit-tour.html

Again, etc etc.

Now ya'll want to talk REALLY bitter-- Tilford might have hard man animosity but I don't think TD/JV affected his career enough to be bitter-- how about one Greg Le Mond? I don't mind the purge as long as that fraudulent domino falls too.

bingo

[goonster]

Says the person who claims taking down Lance will "drain the swamp."
Yes, the swamp of dope.

I did not realize that acknowledging the existence of widespread doping practices in the pro peloton of the last decade was either controversial, or a personal attack on you.

[CunegoFan]

U
Now ya'll want to talk REALLY bitter-- Tilford might have hard man animosity but I don't think TD/JV affected his career enough to be bitter-- how about one Greg Le Mond? I don't mind the purge as long as that fraudulent domino falls too.

Got any evidence on that one, something, anything, even a tidbit?

[crickets]

Thought not.

What about Andy Hampsten? Oh, yeah, Andy did not call out Armstrong's doping so he gets a pass on being smeared.

[67-59]

Yes, the swamp of dope.

I did not realize that acknowledging the existence of widespread doping practices in the pro peloton of the last decade was either controversial, or a personal attack on you.

And since I strongly suspected that nobody in this forum actually posts from another universe, I didn't realize that you would interpret my asking about "your universe" as a personal attack on you.

I still go back to my point -- there was widespread doping before Lance, and there will be widespread doping after him. And the only real reason for going after him now is his big name -- and the big name it will create for whomever takes credit for bringing him down.

[William]

. . . please keep it classy and the Evil Mods will continue to let this run. :rolleyes:

BBD

Nobody* expects the Spanish Mod Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise, surprise and fear, fear and surprise. Our *two* weapons are fear and surprise, and ruthless efficiency with a laser light. Our *three* weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency with a laser light and a doberman with almost fanatical attraction to a laser light. Our *four*... No... Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry are such elements as fear, sur- Oh never mind. BBDave, get the Angryscientist and let loose the Doberman!!

http://pics.myspew.com/var/albums/geek/Evil%20Animal%20Laser.gif?m=1313413310




;)
William

[BumbleBeeDave]

-- how about one Greg Le Mond?

Now that you mention it . . . Has he been nquoted as making any recent statements about all of this? I don't recall seeing anything.

BBD

[67-59]

Now that you mention it . . . Has he been nquoted as making any recent statements about all of this? I don't recall seeing anything.

BBD

Greg sees the new strategy -- going after former TdF champions years after their victories, theoretically on the notion that punishing long-past transgressions will clean the sport in the present and future...but really just to make big headlines.

It would be foolish for him to say anything right now. Big surprise that he's laying low....

[CunegoFan]

Now that you mention it . . . Has he been nquoted as making any recent statements about all of this? I don't recall seeing anything.

BBD

He has done one or two interviews with European press.

I recall his daughter making a biting comment, perhaps on Twitter, to Armstrong, who harassed her a while back.

[Grant McLean]

Greg sees the new strategy -- going after former TdF champions years after their victories, theoretically on the notion that punishing long-past transgressions will clean the sport in the present and future...

It's a popular idea.


"Museeuw calls for doping confessions from past riders, Cycling “must break with the hyprocrisy” around doping."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/museeuw-calls-for-doping-confessions-from-past-riders

[Rueda Tropical]

+100000000000000

The only reason they're going after Lance now is that he's a big name, which carries big fame to whomever "brings him down."

No, they are going after him now because they now have had extensive inside evidence of doping by LA and others handed to them. If you are the anti-doping police and you get handed clear evidence of doping you act on it... unless you are corrupt or incompetent (like the UCI).

As far as this being all about the past and a waste of time, events since the charges have become public prove what a load of BS that is. As a result of the Armstrong investigation the unbreakable code of omerta that has endured through multiple scandals and investigations has been smashed. Everyone and his brother is spilling his guts about doping past, present and future. Even on teams and individuals who never were on the same team as Armstrong. When this is all over there won't be much left that we don't know about the corruption in pro cycling.

Seems like when it comes to bang for your buck, this has been the most effective doping prosecution in the history of sport. Chapeau Tygart for doing his job and a big FU to McQuaid and his corrupt predecessor at the UCI for being cycling's doping enablers in chief.

[Rueda Tropical]

Never would have seen a headline like this without the Armstrong investigation.

Schenk doubts McQuaid has the credibility to clean up cycling

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/schenk-doubts-mcquaid-has-the-credibility-to-clean-up-cycling

[CunegoFan]

No, they are going after him now because they now have had extensive inside evidence of doping by LA and others handed to them. If you are the anti-doping police and you get handed clear evidence of doping you act on it... unless you are corrupt or incompetent (like the UCI).

As far as this being all about the past and a waste of time, events since the charges have become public prove what a load of BS that is. As a result of the Armstrong investigation the unbreakable code of omerta that has endured through multiple scandals and investigations has been smashed. Everyone and his brother is spilling his guts about doping past, present and future. Even on teams and individuals who never were on the same team as Armstrong. When this is all over there won't be much left that we don't know about the corruption in pro cycling.

Seems like when it comes to bang for your buck, this has been the most effective doping prosecution in the history of sport. Chapeau Tygart for doing his job and a big FU to McQuaid and his corrupt predecessor at the UCI for being cycling's doping enablers in chief.

+1

This has produced the best opportunity to have serious change enacted at the UCI, maybe even to rid the sport of Verbruggen and his stooge. In the U.S. there is perhaps a chance to dislodge Weisel and his cronies. Without this there would be no chance at all.

JV has said the sport needs an independent entity to handle anti-doping and it needs much better funding than what the teams currently put into the effort, but the teams are reluctant to put the money into an organization that is working against the teams' interests.

[67-59]

No, they are going after him now because they now have had extensive inside evidence of doping by LA and others handed to them. If you are the anti-doping police and you get handed clear evidence of doping you act on it... unless you are corrupt or incompetent (like the UCI).

As far as this being all about the past and a waste of time, events since the charges have become public prove what a load of BS that is. As a result of the Armstrong investigation the unbreakable code of omerta that has endured through multiple scandals and investigations has been smashed. Everyone and his brother is spilling his guts about doping past, present and future. Even on teams and individuals who never were on the same team as Armstrong. When this is all over there won't be much left that we don't know about the corruption in pro cycling.

Seems like when it comes to bang for your buck, this has been the most effective doping prosecution in the history of sport. Chapeau Tygart for doing his job and a big FU to McQuaid and his corrupt predecessor at the UCI for being cycling's doping enablers in chief.

Guess we'll have disagree about the real reasons, and how wonderful this is for the sport. Once it's over, the public may be so disgusted with cycling that the only way you'll ever see the TdF again is to pitch a tent on Alpe d'Huez. Great if you can afford it; not so great if you can't....

[PQJ]

Guess we'll have disagree about the real reasons, and how wonderful this is for the sport. Once it's over, the public may be so disgusted with cycling that the only way you'll ever see the TdF again is to pitch a tent on Alpe d'Huez. Great if you can afford it; not so great if you can't....

Nah. The great thing about technology and capitalism is that you can pretty much get what you want, when you want it. Rugby is even more fringe here than cycling and I get to watch all the matches I want, live. Besides, if it'll get rid of Phil and Paul then that's just more upside.

[67-59]

Nah. The great thing about technology and capitalism is that you can pretty much get what you want, when you want it. Rugby is even more fringe here than cycling and I get to watch all the matches I want, live. Besides, if it'll get rid of Phil and Paul then that's just more upside.

Right. Capitalism. As in the more fringe, the more you pay for it. And cycling is becoming more fringe by the day. Yippee.:butt:

[CunegoFan]

Nah. The great thing about technology and capitalism is that you can pretty much get what you want, when you want it. Rugby is even more fringe here than cycling and I get to watch all the matches I want, live. Besides, if it'll get rid of Phil and Paul then that's just more upside.

Watching streams and torrents beats the hell out of watching that crap OLN/Versus/NBC coverage. The video quality may not be great but there is not more commercials than racing. You can get decent race commentary. This is the future, not hoping that NBC can rope Trautwig into making a fringe sport understandable to the casual viewer.

[PQJ]

Right. Capitalism. As in the more fringe, the more you pay for it. And cycling is becoming more fringe by the day. Yippee.:butt:

So instead of getting it for nothing I'll pay $10. Big deal.

[Rueda Tropical]

Guess we'll have disagree about the real reasons, and how wonderful this is for the sport. Once it's over, the public may be so disgusted with cycling that the only way you'll ever see the TdF again is to pitch a tent on Alpe d'Huez. Great if you can afford it; not so great if you can't....

In the end the "reasons" don't matter. You will never know what motivated Tygart to do his job or Landis to spill the beans or Lance and the others to dope. Maybe they were noble, maybe they were venal and self-serving. It's their actions that count.

Cycling will survive. As Charles de Gaulle said:

The graveyards are full of indispensable men.

Of course the crooks always want you to believe they are 'to big to fail'.

[slidey]

Totally agree! A good internet connection and Eurosport torrents...heavenly! I can't believe I haven't had to endure P/P's drivel for so long now :P

Watching streams and torrents beats the hell out of watching that crap OLN/Versus/NBC coverage. The video quality may not be great but there is not more commercials than racing. You can get decent race commentary. This is the future, not hoping that NBC can rope Trautwig into making a fringe sport understandable to the casual viewer.

[harryblack]

I'll assume your playing possum, Cunego, and take a pull so you achieve the reaction you're seeking from the peloton.

1989?

Sorry, I don't believe in miracles.

And while I don't know how old or young you are, or how closely you watched that era of racing, but there were LOTS of questions about Greg's performance that season and the miracle of iron injections.

This isn't a court of law but the court of common sense says come on... And it's sure easy to be self-righteous when there's no small bottles of blood or piss left to check.

Q: name me ONE other example in pro cycling or even another sport where an elite athlete (which LeMond was, of course) makes such a rapid (within days in the Giro), radical turn around to the top?

Now we all remember Fatso Greg and his ridiculous struggles to get back in riding shape (pre-echos of Jan Ullrich) so peaking TdF isn't the question... HOW he did so-- first in Giro TT, then TdF, and ** again ** in the worlds-- against a field of Euro and South American dope fiends is a whole other question.

I thought it was cool Greg was on the cover of Sports Illustrated then too... doesn't mean it was TRUE.

Got any evidence on that one, something, anything, even a tidbit?

[crickets]

Thought not.

What about Andy Hampsten? Oh, yeah, Andy did not call out Armstrong's doping so he gets a pass on being smeared.

[CunegoFan]

Totally agree! A good internet connection and Eurosport torrents...heavenly! I can't believe I haven't had to endure P/P's drivel for so long now :P

Yup. Yesterday I watched the Vuelta stage on a Spanish news website. Decent video quality. No commercials other than a banner than would occasionally pop up at the bottom, just racing. The commentary was in Spanish but, hey, that just added authenticity. :)

[G-Reg]

Got any evidence on that one, something, anything, even a tidbit?

[crickets]

Thought not.

What about Andy Hampsten? Oh, yeah, Andy did not call out Armstrong's doping so he gets a pass on being smeared.

No one else has doped to the same level as LA

[Rueda Tropical]

Does that mean he did? No clue but if the USADA had been listening there could be an investigation.


Contrary to the LA PR machines contention the USADA investigation is very much about doping today and not because Armstrong was still competing in another USADA sport. LA wasn't the only name on the charges. It included the most influential figures in the CURRENT sport of pro cycling. The path to those guys ran through Lance. He could have been a cooperating witness he chose not to be.

So the baloney about if you are going after Lance you need to go after every still living champion is BS. The Armstrong investigation is blowing up the omerta and doping infrastructure of the sport today, not in the 90's, today. Look at the front page of cycling news any day of the week since the first bits of evidence went public. The rules say he loses his palmares from back then? tough. Thats not the point of the investigation, just one of the consequences.

[CunegoFan]

1989?

Sorry, I don't believe in miracles.

And while I don't know how old or young you are, or how closely you watched that era of racing, but there were LOTS of questions about Greg's performance that season and the miracle of iron injections.


Really? Let's go back to contemporary reports.

He has done much better so far in 1989. He was third in the Tour of the Americas, contested in both South America and Florida, then sixth in the Tirreno-Adriatico, which runs from one side of Italy to the other.

LeMond was ahead after two of the three stages of the Criterium International, which drew nearly all the world`s best cyclists. He lost the lead in the final stage, a time trial, and wound up 39 seconds behind winner Miguel Indurain of Spain. ``I have never felt this strong at this point in the season,`` he said.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-04-06/sports/8904020370_1_wisconsin-olympic-ice-rink-tour-race

3rd in the Tour of the Americas
6th at Tirreno Adriatico
2nd at Criterium Internationale

He then got sick.

Raced a lackluster Giro d'Italia, finishing 39th overall if I remember correctly.

According to you, at the end of the Giro he took fast acting miracle dope to finish 2nd in a time trial. It could not be that he had good form in the early season, suffered a lull due to sickness, then raced himself back into shape.

[93legendti]

I'll assume your playing possum, Cunego, and take a pull so you achieve the reaction you're seeking from the peloton.

1989?

Sorry, I don't believe in miracles.

And while I don't know how old or young you are, or how closely you watched that era of racing, but there were LOTS of questions about Greg's performance that season and the miracle of iron injections.

This isn't a court of law but the court of common sense says come on... And it's sure easy to be self-righteous when there's no small bottles of blood or piss left to check.

Q: name me ONE other example in pro cycling or even another sport where an elite athlete (which LeMond was, of course) makes such a rapid (within days in the Giro), radical turn around to the top?

Now we all remember Fatso Greg and his ridiculous struggles to get back in riding shape (pre-echos of Jan Ullrich) so peaking TdF isn't the question... HOW he did so-- first in Giro TT, then TdF, and ** again ** in the worlds-- against a field of Euro and South American dope fiends is a whole other question.

I thought it was cool Greg was on the cover of Sports Illustrated then too... doesn't mean it was TRUE.

Yup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemond
After struggling in the 1989 Paris-Nice race and failing to find his form, LeMond informed his wife Kathy that he intended to retire from professional cycling after the 1989 Tour de France.[1] In May, LeMond rode the 1989 Giro d'Italia as preparation for the Tour to follow, but was consistently dropped on the climbs during the Italian race and was not considered an overall contender coming into the Tour.[18][19] LeMond's own most optimistic hope was to finish his final Tour in the top 20.[1]

[93legendti]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html

LeMond had his blood tested near the end of the Tour de Trump to see if that might yield some clue to his disappointing performances. It revealed nothing. He returned to Europe to prepare for the Tour of Italy, one of cycling's most prestigious events after the Tour de France. There, too, he faltered. In the first mountain stage LeMond lost eight minutes to the leaders. His masseur, Otto Jacome, who has been a friend of the LeMond family since Greg was 15, took one look at him afterward and said, "You are white. You need iron."

Again LeMond had his blood tested. This time he was diagnosed as anemic, and his doctor immediately gave him an injection of iron. "I was riding myself into the ground," LeMond says. "I was pushing so hard that I was eating into my muscles."

The worst was still to come. In the 11th stage of the Tour of Italy, during a climb called the Tre Cime di Laverado, LeMond finished 17 minutes behind the leaders. If it hadn't been for the Italian spectators urging him on, he figures he would have finished 25 to 30 minutes down. Riders he had once dominated were pedaling away from him with bewildering ease. How did they do it? he wondered. He was more impressed than angry, feeling for the first time in his career that he was out of his league.

"I came back to the room and was ready to cry," he recalls. "I called Kathy that night and told her, 'Get ready to sell everything. I want no obligations. If things don't turn around, I'm quitting at the end of the year.' " She didn't try to talk him out of it. It was the lowest point in his cycling career.

Shortly after that phone call, things began to turn. LeMond had a second injection of iron and started feeling stronger. He actually stayed within shouting distance of the leaders on a late mountain stage of the Tour of Italy, which was such a morale booster that he wanted an all-out test. Being hopelessly out of contention in the overall standings, LeMond decided to go for broke in the final stage of the Tour of Italy, an individual time trial of just under 34 miles. He would hold nothing back, start to finish. If he ran out of gas — "blew up," in cycling parlance — so be it. But LeMond didn't blow up. He finished second, a whopping minute and 18 seconds ahead of Fignon, the overall winner. "It changed my entire outlook," says LeMond. "Obviously, there was nothing wrong with me physically."

[CunegoFan]

LeMond's comeback story as sold to the rubes after the fact or what he said at the time. Hmmm.. Which to believe?

[BBB]

The whole LeMond comeback thing in 1989 and the 'iron' injection is really easy to create rumour and innuendo on paper...until you watch the 1989 TdF. LeMond rode extremely well in the time trials, but was widly inconsistent in the mountains. Go back and watch the race and ask yourself if LeMond's performance bears in the mountains any resemblance to the races later in the 90s and in the 00s? Or consider that Laurent Fignon's time up Alpe d' Huez was almost 42 minutes and LeMond lost over a minute to Fignon in the last four kilometers of the climb. These times were nothing like the ascents of Pantani, Armstrong et al. The innuendo ignores the fact that LeMond did in fact ride well in the spring in 1989 before a mid-season slump.

[93legendti]

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/30/sports/lemond-riding-on-confidence.html


Lemond, who turned 29 years old this week, seconded all those opinions.

''I'm better at this time than I was a year ago at the start of the Tour,'' he said after the training ride. Last year he was still recovering from a nearly fatal hunting accident in April 1987 and had not shown any of his championship form when the Tour began.

Then, bolstered by iron injections after anemia was detected, he won the leader's yellow jersey in the first time trial and went on to make up a 50-second deficit on the last day as he won the Tour de France by 8 seconds.

This year, his troubles were not physical but a lack of training because of a heavy schedule of commercial obligations in the United States during the winter.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/24/sports/for-lemond-fignon-was-not-the-only-obstacle.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm

During the Italian tour in June, LeMond had a blood test and found that he was low in iron, which, he said, is ''a binding product for oxygen.''

''I took an iron supplement that night, an injection by the doctor,'' he said. ''The next day I felt the improvement. And from that point on, I could feel I was improving, that I was getting oxygen. Before that, on the smallest hill, I was gone.'' He made a strangling noise, like a man in great pain.

''Now it's going fine,'' he said. ''For my first time back in the Tour de France, I can't complain.'' A Summer at Home

Like I posted earlier, "One pushing a position does himself/herself a disservice if they can't admit a bad fact. It just makes them look like a paid operative."

I'll take quotes and cites over opinion, conjecture and obvious bias - unless this is just a gossip column, then bring on stories of UFO's, Elvis sightings and Bigfoot tales.

[bostondrunk]

<sigh....>

Its pro sports. There is doping. It is entertainment.

I've always been a huge fan of both LeMond and Armstrong (and Ulrich). Because they made racing exciting.
End of story.

[William]

<sigh....>

Its pro sports. There is doping. It is entertainment.

I've always been a huge fan of both LeMond and Armstrong (and Ulrich). Because they made racing exciting.
End of story.

The drunk lives!!!

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/170068_o.gif




:beer:
William

[CunegoFan]

So far you have found the hype that LeMond used to sell his recovery after his Tour win, stuff about him being undertrained because of sponsor obligations (despite having a good pre-Giro season) and racing himself into shape during the Giro, and and an iron injection.

Keep digging. I'm sure you'll find the link that reports LeMond was doping yet. :rolleyes:

Or maybe not.

[BumbleBeeDave]

So far you have found the hype that LeMond used to sell his recovery after his Tour win, stuff about him being undertrained because of sponsor obligations (despite having a good pre-Giro season) and racing himself into shape during the Giro, and and an iron injection.

Keep digging. I'm sure you'll find the link that reports LeMond was doping yet. :rolleyes:

Or maybe not.

. . . about Lemond compared to Armstrong is that Lemond, when tested, had one of the highest VO2max readings ever recorded at 92.5. Armstrong's was 85. Key question to me is whether this inherent maximum ability can be changed via doping or if it's hardwired in.

Another thing that amazed me about Lemond is that when he was accidentally shot in 1987 he lost a good portion of his blood and almost died. It astonished me that he came back at all--especially since he was still carrying quite a few shotgun pellets the doctors couldn't get to.

But what most impresses me about Lemond is that he comes across to me in all I've seen of him as a real human being with real frailties and a willingness to admit and discuss them. I have read reveal accounts where he does that--sometimes in painful detail--and potentially embarrassing to him. He comes across as very genuine and believeable--and real.

Armstrong, on the other hand, has never come across to me in anythng at all I've seen about him or by him as genuine or off the cuff. And by that I mean in a real quoted interview, not in a carefully prepared, heavily ghostwritten book like "It's Not About the Bike", etc.

BBD

[Grant McLean]

But what most impresses me about Lemond is that he comes across to me in all I've seen of him as a real human being with real frailties and a willingness to admit and discuss them. I have read reveal accounts where he does that--sometimes in painful detail--and potentially embarrassing to him. He comes across as very genuine and believeable--and real.

The narrative of the doping fight, in which it has been impossible to know
the truth, has been about finding other ways of separating "the good guys" -
the non dopers, from "the bad guys", the dopers. No room for complicated
people like Lemond, it's one or the other please.

The strategy of some has been to vilify those you suspect of doping so that
they are made out to be "the bad guys", and of course this is what many
tried to do to Lemond because he had the audacity to attack the ultimate
"good guy" and hero Lance. Someone has to be made to play the bad guy,
we're supposed to choose what side we're on.

The whole thing is a farce. Of course every human being is a tangled mess
of good and bad, and we've all done things of which we are both proud and
ashamed. The phoney effort to divide into camps of two waring sides
is a large reason the anti-doping movement has struggled to take so long
to come to terms with what has really occurred.

The doping fight has truly been a tragedy, making the riders play their
assigned roles of heros and villains, while we the audience have the pleasure
of viewing their suffering.

-g

[dancinkozmo]

I think lemond said once about armstrongs cancer comeback....its either the greatest comeback or biggest hoax in sports history....Or something to that effect

The same probably could be said about gregs 1989 TDF

[Tony T]

Does LeMond still hold the TT record after all these years?

[rwsaunders]

<sigh....>

Its pro sports. There is doping. It is entertainment.

I've always been a huge fan of both LeMond and Armstrong (and Ulrich). Because they made racing exciting.
End of story.

+1...it's similar to watching the Royals. People love to follow the weddings, but they are even more elated to read about the divorces.

[jimcav]

. . . about Lemond compared to Armstrong is that Lemond, when tested, had one of the highest VO2max readings ever recorded at 92.5. Armstrong's was 85. Key question to me is whether this inherent maximum ability can be changed via doping or if it's hardwired in.



yes it changes it. That was one of the findings in the early 90s when they first used erythropoietin to get people dependent on blood transfusions, off the transfusions. One of the noted findings was it increased exercise capacity, which is what VO2 max is a measure of. It is even specifically noted in the epogen package insert. Vo2 max is the maximal rate of oxygen use by the body at maximal exertion for 1 minute. EPO increases red blood cells, which are what carries oxygen to the working muscles, so if you can bring more O2 to the muscles, then the work you can do in that minute goes up. You can read the studies at pubmed showing the same effect in anemia caused by chemo/cancer--epo preserves exercise capacity in them.

since hard exercise can cause minor anemia (usually an iron deficiency issue over time, similar to the loss from menstruation in some women), if all you did was dope to get you to your OWN baseline: even that is not cool, That small loss can make a difference in terms of your maximum exercise capacity--that impacts training ability, recovery, etc.

[jimcav]

I think lemond said once about armstrongs cancer comeback....its either the greatest comeback or biggest hoax in sports history....Or something to that effect

The same probably could be said about gregs 1989 TDF

based upon BBD's comment on greg's Vo2 max at 92+, if you had results of his anemia tests, you could get a good idea what percent improvement was possible based upon his Hemoglobin numbers. Lab tests easily show Iron defiency anemia, and the change in hemoglobin as a result would give a good estimate of the change in performance possible.

not something i've ever seen--anyone ever see any published lab tests on the reported iron deficiency anemia?

"sports anemia" is a real thing, and is more common in ultra endurance athletes.

[BBB]

So, LeMond had an iron injection or injections. This much has been known since the time it happened. No one was suggesting LeMond was using some miracle drug in 1989 or subsequently, until LeMond and Armstrong had a falling out. I think there are some quotes dealing with this from 2001.

[Tony T]

That's his story and he's sticking to it.
LeMond held the TT record for 16 years or more. Yes, he was there at the start of the aerodynamic TT bikes, but the tech got better each subsequent year, the riders faster, yet LeMond's record wasn't beaten.

Sure, that was only b-12 shots in is arse...and doping only started in 1999.

[slidey]

Iron Man!! :bike:

It astonished me that he came back at all--especially since he was still carrying quite a few shotgun pellets the doctors couldn't get to.

[firerescuefin]

That's his story and he's sticking to it.
LeMond held the TT record for 16 years or more. Yes, he was there at the start of the aerodynamic TT bikes, but the tech got better each subsequent year, the riders faster, yet LeMond's record wasn't beaten.

Sure, that was only b-12 shots in is arse...and doping only started in 1999.

You're hilarious...poke holes in everyone elses story, yet spend hours a day defending your mancrush Lance, attempting to disparage any thought that he might have been on the "juice". At least you're consistent.

[Mark McM]

That's his story and he's sticking to it.
LeMond held the TT record for 16 years or more.

No he didn't. He held the record for the 2nd fastest trial, although it was the fast TT over 10 km. It should also be noted that the course was point-to-point (not an out and back or closed loop as required for setting most TT records), and had a tailwind all the way.

[Tony T]

He held it for 16 years, not counting the 1994 prologue.

[LegendRider]

Here's Joe Papp's take on LeMond.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=859034&postcount=143

For the record, I believe that LeMond raced clean.

[cfox]

funny thing about doping...old skool doping only made you think you were fast, the O2 stuff made you fast. That said, doping is doping...so one can presume the guys taking speed in the '80's would have gladly taken the O2 stuff had it been available. So, why then, if Lemond was doped up on speed an anabolics in the '80's refuse to get involved with EPO in the early '90's? I think it's pretty obvious he stayed away from the O2 stuff.

[Charles M]

That’s a great point 02 versus Stimulants...

But when you eliminate the mental barriers, pain/exertion barriers you do go faster / longer / stronger.

Think of a supercharger on one hand versus a double shot of nitro... One is forced 02 and the other is blasting your system in a bit different way (but still an oxidizer) and long term they're both engine killers...

Anyone ever having to take down a 250 pound roid ranger on hallucinogenic or speed and or even a 105 pound meth chick can tell you how super human you can be.

It's tough to know what the dates are on availability as in a few cases cyclists have been ahead of the curve... Wasnt it Dario Frigo that got caught with a drug that wasnt yet approved for distribution? Arguably the 02 boost started with the Indurain / Era...

But it wouldnt surprise me to know that there were a couple of early adpoters by a year or two. In fact there must have been.