Are Vanilla frames numbered in any way?

[Delpo]

Looking at a Vanilla frame on Ebay and the seller states that the frame does not have a serial number or build number. Could anybody please chime in? Is there any way to identify the frame to the builder other than showing the picture?

My interest is to be able to source the build sheet.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200811821147#ht_500wt_985

Thanks.

Carlos

[christian]

My wife's Vanilla (2007) has no serial number or any stampings at all on the bb, or anywhere else I could find.

[pdmtong]

no serial
no build number
only 40-50 made/year so that must be small enough they can still track with paper/pencil


this frame was put up for sale before.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=112723&highlight=vanilla
note it takes fenders.
if you are very serious, I would call vanilla, and tell them you are serious about the frame on ebay but want to reconfirm the geometry.

[fuzzalow]

Adding my concurrence to those that the 2 gentlemen have already voiced.

I asked after treating the new frame with Framesaver, turning it every which way to coat the tubing and seeing nothing as crass as an imprint. Simply the name of the artisan and the year.

The crew at Vanilla identify their bike based on the year, color, the size of frame and other birthmarks. There is no other identification other than inherent uniqueness of each piece.

[Delpo]

Thanks to all.

[victoryfactory]

How the heck can Vanilla keep track of frames
if they don't put any marking on them?

[gone]

How the heck can Vanilla keep track of frames
if they don't put any marking on them?

I think someone with a 60x60 should send theirs to me so I can inspect it for numbers or other markings.

Shouldn't take more than a few years, tops. :D

[victoryfactory]

Some makers put a number on the steerer
Which would not be apparent to many riders unless they
take the fork off.
VF

[Aaron O]

I would prefer a serial number and see no valid reason not to have one.

[FlashUNC]

That would concern me.

[christian]

What's the concern? I mean, I guess it's nice to have, but I also find the obsession with build sheets a bit odd. I mean, other than tubing selection, what can the builder tell you that you can't find out with a tape measure, a level, an angle-finder and some string?

I saw Sacha measure my wife for her Vanilla. It came in a box from Vanilla. It has Vanilla dropouts and headbadge. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's genuine! :)

[Auk]

It's not like you can easily replicate that bikes features, namely the rear drops. Serial numbers dont' tell you anything really. A centimeter is still a centimeter, SN# or not.

[Delpo]

What's the concern? I mean, I guess it's nice to have, but I also find the obsession with build sheets a bit odd. I mean, other than tubing selection, what can the builder tell you that you can't find out with a tape measure, a level, an angle-finder and some string?

I saw Sacha measure my wife for her Vanilla. It came in a box from Vanilla. It has Vanilla dropouts and headbadge. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's genuine! :)


Christian, my only need for the build sheet is to get the measurements given that I can not inspect the frame personally.

Thanks to all for the input.

[David Kirk]

It's not like you can easily replicate that bikes features, namely the rear drops. Serial numbers dont' tell you anything really. A centimeter is still a centimeter, SN# or not.

I'd be VERY surprised if there wasn't a number stamped in the frame that is hidden by the paint. If the stamping is shallow or the paint is thick it can bury the number.

IMO the number is very important. I number every frame and fork so that I can reference when the frame was made, what batch of tubing/raw material was used, what flux and rod was used........etc. Without a number that can give you the details it becomes near impossible to know 5 years down the line what was used in a bike. If the bike fails you would really want to know how many other bikes are out there that used the same stuff. This is the important part to me.

Then there is the simple housekeeping stuff. If I want to reference the bike and look up the geometry or any details it's much easier if I have a number and can just pull up the file. It's not fun looking through a year's worth of folders to find the right one.

Have you asked Sacha directly?

dave

[FlashUNC]

I'd be VERY surprised if there wasn't a number stamped in the frame that is hidden by the paint. If the stamping is shallow or the paint is thick it can bury the number.

IMO the number is very important. I number every frame and fork so that I can reference when the frame was made, what batch of tubing/raw material was used, what flux and rod was used........etc. Without a number that can give you the details it becomes near impossible to know 5 years down the line what was used in a bike. If the bike fails you would really want to know how many other bikes are out there that used the same stuff. This is the important part to me.

Then there is the simple housekeeping stuff. If I want to reference the bike and look up the geometry or any details it's much easier if I have a number and can just pull up the file. It's not fun looking through a year's worth of folders to find the right one.

Have you asked Sacha directly?

dave

+1. I'd think just from an insurance/peace of mind standpoint, the builder would want a number on there that makes it easy to track.

[fuzzalow]

Have you asked Sacha directly?

No I did not. I asked Scott directly.

Just because there is not a metal-stamped number to the frame, does not mean the frame cannot be ID'd by unique characteristics mapped back to the client. Sacha does not cookie cutter bikes and Vanillas are out there, just not in large numbers.

Hey, it's their business, it's their call. I'm OK with it.

[David Kirk]

+1. I'd think just from an insurance/peace of mind standpoint, the builder would want a number on there that makes it easy to track.

It is a requirement for my insurance.

dave

[David Kirk]

No I did not. I asked Scott directly.

Just because there is not a metal-stamped number to the frame, does not mean the frame cannot be ID'd by unique characteristics mapped back to the client. Sacha does not cookie cutter bikes and Vanillas are out there, just not in large numbers.

Hey, it's their business, it's their call. I'm OK with it.

I don't mean to suggest that the bike can't be tracked..........it just can't be tracked as quickly and easily. I know Sacha crosses the T's and dots the I's and think it's all just fine.

dave

[pdmtong]

It is a requirement for my insurance.

dave

this is an interesting discussion...the business side of frame building.

Dave, it's clear to me that you are on the meticulous end of the client service / business spectrum amongst, at least the part that is obvious to us clients. your blog, website, photo gallery, in process pics, etc....and, it's you and karin. sometimes I wonder when do you sleep..since you contribute here and building etc.

that observation is NOT to disperage sacha...far from it. but they do things differently in a way that works for them. defointley no s/n on my frame.

[David Kirk]

this is an interesting discussion...the business side of frame building.

Dave, it's clear to me that you are on the meticulous end of the client service / business spectrum amongst, at least the part that is obvious to us clients. your blog, website, photo gallery, in process pics, etc....and, it's you and karin. sometimes I wonder when do you sleep..since you contribute here and building etc.

that observation is NOT to disperage sacha...far from it. but they do things differently in a way that works for them. defointley no s/n on my frame.

Thanks - I do work hard to run this little show as a real business and the key thing to a successful business is that I have happy customers. It's not the only thing that matters but the rest of it matters little if I don't have happy clients. With happy clients the rest of it is possible - without them - not so much.........at least in the long term.

One of the most important things for my business is that I need to be very efficient. My past life at Serotta thought me much about being efficient and using my time effectively. When I step up to the bench I need to do the right things in the right order so that I can afford to take the time needed to make things the way I want them to be. Working on many thousands of bikes at Serotta taught me endless tricks that save a few minute here and a few more there and it all adds up. It feels good to be able to belly up the the bench and make stuff happen at the level I want and in the time required.

Doing the above leaves me time for other things that are important to me and the business. I enjoy posting here and sharing in process photos with the customer everyday. It makes it fun. This isn't a get rich quick scheme so I work to make it as fun as possible - for both me and the client. After all, this is in the end supposed to be fun.

As odd as it might sound I never work long hours. I've been there and done that and it's not sustainable - at least for me. I work about 40-45 hours a week and never work nights or weekends - ever. The quick way to burnout for me is to work too much. After all if I can't take/make time to ride the bikes making them is less fun. This coming spring will mark 10 years since I started my biz and I've been profitable and had more than enough work since day one so it all seems to be working. I guess I'm 'successful'.

Back to the bench!

dave

[Matt-H]

Thanks - I do work hard to run this little show as a real business and the key thing to a successful business is that I have happy customers. It's not the only thing that matters but the rest of it matters little if I don't have happy clients. With happy clients the rest of it is possible - without them - not so much.........at least in the long term.

One of the most important things for my business is that I need to be very efficient. My past life at Serotta thought me much about being efficient and using my time effectively. When I step up to the bench I need to do the right things in the right order so that I can afford to take the time needed to make things the way I want them to be. Working on many thousands of bikes at Serotta taught me endless tricks that save a few minute here and a few more there and it all adds up. It feels good to be able to belly up the the bench and make stuff happen at the level I want and in the time required.

Doing the above leaves me time for other things that are important to me and the business. I enjoy posting here and sharing in process photos with the customer everyday. It makes it fun. This isn't a get rich quick scheme so I work to make it as fun as possible - for both me and the client. After all, this is in the end supposed to be fun.

As odd as it might sound I never work long hours. I've been there and done that and it's not sustainable - at least for me. I work about 40-45 hours a week and never work nights or weekends - ever. The quick way to burnout for me is to work too much. After all if I can't take/make time to ride the bikes making them is less fun. This coming spring will mark 10 years since I started my biz and I've been profitable and had more than enough work since day one so it all seems to be working. I guess I'm 'successful'.

Back to the bench!

dave

Impressive and insightful as always.

[nicrump]

you'd be amazed at how hard it is to ID a frame many hundreds down the line without a ser# and database. even the "unique" ones.

[fuzzalow]

I don't mean to suggest that the bike can't be tracked..........

Understood. Anymore than I meant to speak for or bolster the efficacy of Vanilla's numbering system, or lack thereof. I'm just a client, what do I know?

you'd be amazed at how hard it is to ID a frame many hundreds down the line without a ser# and database. even the "unique" ones.

Do such requests actually come in and is such request like that of the OP seeking specs on a frame being sold in the secondary market? Specs are convenient but lacking that, the frame can always be measured. At last! The the only relevant and true use and purpose in cycling for a plumb bob.

[Aaron O]

My Vanilla does have some lettering on the BB shell - PCD. Not sure if that's a serial or not.

[David Kirk]

My Vanilla does have some lettering on the BB shell - PCD. Not sure if that's a serial or not.

PCD = Pacenti Cycle Design. It's a pacenti BB shell.

Dave

[christian]

PCD is likely Pacenti Cycle Design, the maker (well, designer) of the bottom bracket. http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=25

That's Kirk Pacenti, btw.

[Jack Brunk]

How would you ID a stolen bike to the Law enforcement agency? In Socal, if you don't have a serial numbered bike the police will not really even care. Unique touches don't work outside our little world. Neither my SV or Vanilla didn't have any markings either which kinda bugged me. Of course I didn't hold on either very long for a SN to matter. LOL!

[christian]

Oh yeah, I'm sure that if I called the local PD with the serial number to my stolen Vanilla, they'd get right on that! :)

[Aaron O]

Thanks for serial help!

Obviously the police are unlikely to find it, but you never know. I'd rather have a serial number.

About 3 years ago there was STOLEN ad on our CL - a kid had his Vanilla track back taken (which he'd left unlocked). A messenger saw it by a bar, police were called...he got it back (numerous scratches). In that situation, I'd rather have a serial number.

[victoryfactory]

Maybe Sacha is a Tibetan Buddhist.

But seriously, after all the speculation here, Wouldn't a simple call or email
to the man himself solve this mystery?
Or is he one of those unapproachable artist types?

VF

[Aaron O]

Maybe Sacha is a Tibetan Buddhist.

But seriously, after all the speculation here, Wouldn't a simple call or email
to the man himself solve this mystery?
Or is he one of those unapproachable artist types?

VF

I called Vanilla once and received first rate customer service - that's probably the way to go. I have never spoken with a frame builder and gotten anything other than a friendly guy who wanted to help on the other end of the phone.

[FlashUNC]

Maybe Sacha is a Tibetan Buddhist.

But seriously, after all the speculation here, Wouldn't a simple call or email
to the man himself solve this mystery?
Or is he one of those unapproachable artist types?

VF

Sacha's been around the forum before, and seems like a good guy.

[DHallerman]

Do such requests actually come in and is such request like that of the OP seeking specs on a frame being sold in the secondary market? Specs are convenient but lacking that, the frame can always be measured. At last! The the only relevant and true use and purpose in cycling for a plumb bob.

Oh, but I've seen too many sellers mis-measuring aspects of a bike frame.

Really. It's not a question of trusting the person's honesty, but trusting their skill. It seems easy, but I've bought frames where the seller said XY dimension was ABC, but it wasn't. And that was from a good guy!

So especially with the more-expensive sort of bike that would come from one of the builders discussed here, I'd want to see the build sheet or at least build diagram before putting down the big bucks.

[DHallerman]

Oh yeah, I'm sure that if I called the local PD with the serial number to my stolen Vanilla, they'd get right on that! :)

Hey, isn't that what you pay your high taxes for?

[pdmtong]

Oh, but I've seen too many sellers mis-measuring aspects of a bike frame.

Really. It's not a question of trusting the person's honesty, but trusting their skill. It seems easy, but I've bought frames where the seller said XY dimension was ABC, but it wasn't. And that was from a good guy!

So especially with the more-expensive sort of bike that would come from one of the builders discussed here, I'd want to see the build sheet or at least build diagram before putting down the big bucks.

Remeber toosahn? The guy using the forum just to flop the mass of high end bikes he bought ? I had to explain to him how to take some of the base measurements on the di2 Ellis. Yes. It's not a question of honesty but assurance you are getting the right numbers