A deal gone sour? An appeal for help.

[KillerPenguin]

Hello there!

In early august, I went to a dealer to get my position tweaked on my bike, a Cannondale R800. Unfortunatly, he didn't tighten the QR once the session was complete, and when I went to sprint later that day my rear wheel dropped out and I crashed, braking my collar bone and tweaking my frame enough to need a new one.

I worked out a deal with the dealer which would be relatively favorable to both of us. He would supply me with a new frame and other damaged parts at invoice price. Originally, he quoted me $697.50 for a Caad8 frame with carbon fork and said that more money may be taken off that price if Cannondale accepts my old tweaked frame as a trade in.

I picked up the bike today to discover that Cannondale had not accepted my old frame in exchange because it had been damaged in a crash, and the new frame was going to cost me $1000. I asked him why the price went up, and he said that $697.50 was going to be the price if Cannondale accepted the old frame as a trade in.

I feel like I'm being taken for a ride, but I don't want to accuse the dealer of breaking our deal and making a profit unless I have evidence that this is in fact what he was doing.

Would one of you be kind enough to PM me the direct factory price for a CAAD8 frame with carbon fork?

Thanks a lot for any help you can offer.

[Fixed]

bro get a lawyer that rides there are a lot around give him your med and bike bills. they can work wonders.cheers :beer:

[djg21]

Hello there!

In early august, I went to a dealer to get my position tweaked on my bike, a Cannondale R800. Unfortunatly, he didn't tighten the QR once the session was complete, and when I went to sprint later that day my rear wheel dropped out and I crashed, braking my collar bone and tweaking my frame enough to need a new one.

I worked out a deal with the dealer which would be relatively favorable to both of us. He would supply me with a new frame and other damaged parts at invoice price. Originally, he quoted me $697.50 for a Caad8 frame with carbon fork and said that more money may be taken off that price if Cannondale accepts my old tweaked frame as a trade in.

I picked up the bike today to discover that Cannondale had not accepted my old frame in exchange because it had been damaged in a crash, and the new frame was going to cost me $1000. I asked him why the price went up, and he said that $697.50 was going to be the price if Cannondale accepted the old frame as a trade in.

I feel like I'm being taken for a ride, but I don't want to accuse the dealer of breaking our deal and making a profit unless I have evidence that this is in fact what he was doing.

Would one of you be kind enough to PM me the direct factory price for a CAAD8 frame with carbon fork?

Thanks a lot for any help you can offer.

Call a decent PI lawyer. Your broken collar bone, and the stiffness in your neck and back that you are still suffering are worth more that $1,000, even after the lawyer takes his 1/3. When the shop owner learnes that you're serious, he'll likely cave on the new bike and then some.

[Needs Help]

bro get a lawyer that rides there are a lot around give him your med and bike bills. they can work wonders
Absent a video tape showing the mechanic failed to secure the quick release, I don't think there is any way to prove the owner of the bike wasn't the one who left it unsecured. In fact, I would consider it the responsibility of every rider to check their quick releases before heading out on a ride. Those pre-ride checks are especially important when someone else has been fiddling with your bike.

Sorry to hear about your accident.

[KillerPenguin]

Absent a video tape showing the mechanic failed to secure the quick release, I don't think there is any way to prove the owner of the bike wasn't the one who left it unsecured. In fact, I would consider it the responsibility of every rider to check their quick releases before heading out on a ride.

Which is one of the reasons I didn't go to a lawyer. I do consider myself partially at fault for not checking to see if the QR was secured before I went riding. However, that doesn't change that the dealer didn't tighten it up either. We're both at fault, which is why I thought the deal we worked out was fair; he doesn't lose any money and I get a discount. What I'm concerned about is that $1000 is a lot more than he initially quoted me for the frame, and I just want to make sure he isn't trying to make a profit off of me.

[Serpico]

Does a dealer know if the price quoted to Penguin is correct?

[Sandy]

Which is one of the reasons I didn't go to a lawyer. I do consider myself partially at fault for not checking to see if the QR was secured before I went riding. However, that doesn't change that the dealer didn't tighten it up either. We're both at fault, which is why I thought the deal we worked out was fair; he doesn't lose any money and I get a discount. What I'm concerned about is that $1000 is a lot more than he initially quoted me for the frame, and I just want to make sure he isn't trying to make a profit off of me.

I think that all the comments thus far make sense. You are being more than fair in your agreement with your dealer. I think that most cyclists would demand more. I would indeed be quite upset and angry if the dealer tried to make a profit, especially after he said that he would not. You are certainly being very reasonable in trying to ascertain the actual price of the frame, since there was some sort of miscommunication (hopefully).

You are to be respected for how you are handling it. I will try to find out the info for you, but I don't know any dealers that I deal with that handle Cannondale.


Sandy

PS- Do you kill penguins or are you a penguin that does the killing? Can you go to formals without buying a tuxedo?? :)

[shaq-d]

if you watn to take it far, go to a lawyer. it is not worth speculating exactly what can or cannot be done without a lawyer, whether you are partially contributory/responsible, etc. u might've played a role, but in law that does not leave the other guy off the hook. if u're serious, go to a lawyer. otherwise take the hits.

anyway, hope u find the real price for the frame..

sd

[jpw]

Imply that his name might be revealed unless you get satisfaction. Bad word of mouth is a killer.

[Too Tall]

I admire your personal sense of responsibility and the shop owners too. Seems he's been willing all along to meet you 1/2 way. Split the diff and have a beer.

[Argos]

$1000 is the right Price. $697, w/o Cannondale taking the frame for trade, is taking (a lot) of $ out of the Dealers pocket.

[eddief]

I have only had a rear wheel loosen up once and the result was not a crash but a tire rubbed chain stay. It could have easily been a disaster. Is the dealer really at any fault here? Is it not our responsibility to check our own quick releases before riding? I think I should do this more often.

[jpw]

Go hostile. :rolleyes:

[Sandy]

I have only had a rear wheel loosen up once and the result was not a crash but a tire rubbed chain stay. It could have easily been a disaster. Is the dealer really at any fault here? Is it not our responsibility to check our own quick releases before riding? I think I should do this more often.

I check the quick releases prior to each and every ride. I am obsessive about it, often doing it several times. Much too important not to.


Still checking,


Sandy

[Smiley]

I tweak bikes all the time after a fit and I telll my clients to re-check all items before they ride, maybe I should have them sign a waiver to acknowledge this statement made to them. Anyway is just dumb not to recheck everyting after your bike has been touched by someone else. I think bike checks for safety are a MUST. Sorry to hear of your accident. Work it out with the shop owner and move on, Both of you are equally to blame, you maybe more then him since its your butt that riding this bike and not his, this could have been much worse. Luckily its not as bad as it could have been.

[djg]

I don't have any special dealer information, but a quick internet search turned up the following, which suggests that the dealer is charging you the full MSRP for the new frame. $1020 MSRP, priced at $939 with the shop's warranty? I suspect that the dealer's invoice has a smaller number on it.

http://www.helenscycles.com/fly.aspx?layout=productdetail&productid=338&taxid=337

And it seems that if you ride a 56, and don't mind their team paint, there's one on sale for 699:

http://www.helenscycles.com/fly.aspx?layout=productdetail&productid=347&taxid=234

[harlond]

Absent a video tape showing the mechanic failed to secure the quick release, I don't think there is any way to prove the owner of the bike wasn't the one who left it unsecured.
This is not true insofar as a civil lawsuit is concerned. For example, the following testimony of the bike owner might be sufficient evidence to establish liability in law: (1) the wheel was properly secured--that is, the QR was properly adjusted--in the bike when he left it at the LBS; (2) the wheel was installed in the bike when he got it back from the LBS; (3) the bike owner did not remove the wheel after retrieving the bike from the LBS; (4) the wheel fell off during normal operation of the bike; and (5) examination of the wheel following the crash showed that the QR was not properly adjusted. Additional evidence that the QR had not failed might be necessary, but I don't see why this is not enough evidence to get to a jury.


In fact, I would consider it the responsibility of every rider to check their quick releases before heading out on a ride. Those pre-ride checks are especially important when someone else has been fiddling with your bike.
OK, but again, this does not mean the LBS is not liable. Depends on what state you're in, but there are many states in which evidence that you are partly responsible for an accident does not relieve other responsible parties from their share of liability.

None of which may alter whatever decision you've made.

[oldguy00]

Well, I don't want to jump the gun with accusing the guy of any wrong doing. The fact is, I bought the frame through the dealer, not off of ebay, so I can't expect to have paid an ebay price.

If invoice is really about $1000, so be it. I know he added some shipping costs to the frame price, so in actuality the frame itself may have cost somewhere between $900-$950.

I've been told by someone that Cannondale will take any frame in exchange regardless of whether or not it has been in a crash. Can anyone confirm this?

Argos, I assume you work in a dealership?

Again, thanks for the help everyone.

I would never expect a shop to give you an ebay price, but given the situation, I wouldn't expect him to charge you full suggested retail!!!
Regardless, don't spen 1k on a cannondale frame. Check out a deal like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CANNONDALE-R5000-CAAD-7-OPTIMO-FRAMESET-56-WITH-SI-BB_W0QQitemZ7185787551QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[bluesea]

I would never expect a shop to give you an ebay price, but given the situation, I wouldn't expect him to charge you full suggested retail!!!
Regardless, don't spen 1k on a cannondale frame. Check out a deal like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CANNONDALE-R5000-CAAD-7-OPTIMO-FRAMESET-56-WITH-SI-BB_W0QQitemZ7185787551QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Uhhh, I think in this case I would go with a frame fully supported by the factory warranty.

[Needs Help]

This is not true insofar as a civil lawsuit is concerned. For example, the following testimony of the bike owner might be sufficient evidence to establish liability in law: (1) the wheel was properly secured--that is, the QR was properly adjusted--in the bike when he left it at the LBS; (2) the wheel was installed in the bike when he got it back from the LBS; (3) the bike owner did not remove the wheel after retrieving the bike from the LBS; (4) the wheel fell off during normal operation of the bike; and (5) examination of the wheel following the crash showed that the QR was not properly adjusted. Additional evidence that the QR had not failed might be necessary, but I don't see why this is not enough evidence to get to a jury.
Or, it may be sufficient evidence if the shop owner testifies: "The accident is completely our fault, and since the bike owner had his fingers chopped off in an industrial accident, he could not have loosened the quick release himself, and because the bike was delivered from our shop to a desert island where no other person has set foot in 100 years, and upon delivery, the owner mounted the bike, leaned his fingerless stumps on the aero bars, and then crashed when the wheel came off, I am guilty as charged. If the wheel slipped, you must not acquit!"

(3) the bike owner did not remove the wheel after retrieving the bike from the LBS
Exactly how is the shop owner going to be able to testify to that? "Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, I did not see the the owner remove the wheel after he left our shop, so the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that the owner never removed the wheel." I wonder: would the owner's own lawyer be able to declare the owner a hostile witness?

[Ginger]

Excuse me...this makes no sense to me.

Why in the world would the rear wheel have anything to do with getting your position tweaked?

What sort of stand did the dealer put the bike in to fit you? I can't think of any off hand that the needs the rear QR loosened...

Please educate me.

[Needs Help]

What sort of stand did the dealer put the bike in to fit you? I can't think of any off hand that the needs the rear QR loosened...
A lot of quick releases don't fit in some trainers.

[djg]

Uhhh, I think in this case I would go with a frame fully supported by the factory warranty.

Pehaps, although I don't see how the factory warranty helps if the bike gets folded in an accident. The post you're responding to points out, as I did above, that the shop does not appear to be charging either the invoice price or the dealer's actual cost, but full MSRP--surely he can do at least as well at any authorized dealer. Frankly, it might do to call the manufacturer directly to ask about frame replacement policies--google their web site and look for a toll free customer service number once you get there.

[Fixed]

bro now is a good time to get a different bike maybe god was tellin ya something. cheers :beer:

[KillerPenguin]

Excuse me...this makes no sense to me.

Why in the world would the rear wheel have anything to do with getting your position tweaked?

What sort of stand did the dealer put the bike in to fit you? I can't think of any off hand that the needs the rear QR loosened...

Please educate me.
While on the trainer, the two prongs that attach the rear QR to the trainer weren't secure enough and my bike and I wound up falling over sideways. When the bike was resecured to the trainer, he changed the position of the rear QR and adjusted one of the prongs so as to make it more secure.

[bluesea]

While on the trainer, the two prongs that attach the rear QR to the trainer weren't secure enough and my bike and I wound up falling over sideways. When the bike was resecured to the trainer, he changed the position of the rear QR and adjusted one of the prongs so as to make it more secure.

As the story unfolds, it seems the responsibilty in the matter is increasingly moving towards the dealer. Sure, it is a responsible and prudent thing to recheck you QRs after a dealer tweaks it or whatever. By the same token, do any of us go through the lugnuts on all of our wheels after having a brake job? Do we double check brake fluid levels before leaving the dealership?

There is a certain degree of implied expertise that comes with doing business as an authorized dealer, and it follows that the customer should be able to rely on that expertise to a certain degree. What if the rider had been a complete noob, who couldn't tell a QR from a seatbinder bolt? I see a great deal of negligence on the part of this dealer, and the OP is deserving of much more than a frame "at cost".

[Tailwinds]

Ditto. You should be able to expect that your bike is in safe riding order after you leave it in the hands of a professional bike shop. They should be bending over backwards to make this up to you, IMO... medical bills, bike, lost wages, etc.

As the story unfolds, it seems the responsibilty in the matter is increasingly moving towards the dealer. Sure, it is a responsible and prudent thing to recheck you QRs after a dealer tweaks it or whatever. By the same token, do any of us go through the lugnuts on all of our wheels after having a brake job? Do we double check brake fluid levels before leaving the dealership?

There is a certain degree of implied expertise that comes with doing business as an authorized dealer, and it follows that the customer should be able to rely on that expertise to a certain degree. What if the rider had been a complete noob, who couldn't tell a QR from a seatbinder bolt? I see a great deal of negligence on the part of this dealer, and the OP is deserving of much more than a frame "at cost".

[harlond]

Or, it may be sufficient evidence if the shop owner testifies: "The accident is completely our fault, and since the bike owner had his fingers chopped off in an industrial accident, he could not have loosened the quick release himself, and because the bike was delivered from our shop to a desert island where no other person has set foot in 100 years, and upon delivery, the owner mounted the bike, leaned his fingerless stumps on the aero bars, and then crashed when the wheel came off, I am guilty as charged. If the wheel slipped, you must not acquit!"
You might not be satisfied without such evidence and you might think the law should be otherwise, but in a civil lawsuit over a matter such as this, the plaintiff need only prove his case by a preponderance of the evidence. If the bike owner offered the testimony I suggested and the shop owner testified to the contrary, the jury would be entitled to decide which witness to credit. If it chose to believe the bike owner, his testimony would be sufficient, under the facts I have proposed, to satisfy the preponderance of evidence standard.


Exactly how is the shop owner going to be able to testify to that? "Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, I did not see the the owner remove the wheel after he left our shop, so the only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that the owner never removed the wheel." I wonder: would the owner's own lawyer be able to declare the owner a hostile witness?
I'm not sure I understand your point. I suggested that the bike owner testify that he had not removed the wheel after retrieving the bike, not that the shop owner testify to it. The shop owner certainly could try to prove that the bike owner removed the wheel, and that in so doing, the bike owner superseded any negligence by the LBS. Failing that, the shop owner's lack of knowledge on what the bike owner did after retrieving the bike does not relieve him of liability. The hostile witness point eludes me.


I responded to your first post because you suggested that it would be pointless for the original poster to consult an attorney because he could never prove liability without a videotape showing the mechanic failing to properly adjust the QR. The attorney in me does not agree with that suggestion. It seems the OP is not interested in suing, and there could be many good reasons to reach that conclusion. I'm not trying to talk him out of that, and so apologies to all if I have veered off topic.

[Serpico]

I can't remember ever checking the lugnuts on the wheels after getting tires replaced on my car. Should this be checked as well?

If the tires fly off the car while cruising down the highway at 65mph, would this be my fault for not checking every bolt with a wrench before leaving the mechanic?

before lbs: wheel doesn't fly off penguins bike, EVER.

right after lbs removes wheel at shop and reassembles: wheel flies off the bike.

I would be on the phone with a lawyer, and with Cannondale. Broken collarbone is a serious injury, you're lucky it wasn't worse.

[Ginger]

Thanks Penguin,
I just wasn't sure why they would bother to loosen the rear wheel for a fitting.

Devil's advocate statement (and this is only to tell you what someone will say): You were aware that they had changed the QR position during the fitting.

I'm sorry your bike got trashed and you broke your collarbone. Heal soon and good luck with getting the $300 off the bike frame. It is a lot of money when you're only expecting to pay 700.

Mary Ann

[Fixed]

bro I'm no lawyer but I deliver a lot of letters from my boss and take it from me a letter from a law firm gets results i.m.h.o..cheers :beer: i bet it would never go to trial not for what your asking.

[chrisroph]

Well, if a shop mechanic is tweaking your position and reinstalls your rear quick release and says go take it for a ride and tell me how it feels, I think you can assume that the wheel was installed properly. If it wasn't installed properly and you suffered damage, you have a claim. You seem willing to compromise. Good. That is the way to get things resolved. I suggest taking a friend to the shop with you and taking the shop owner aside. Discuss and establish the facts. Its important that you and the shop owner are working from common facts. Once you establish common facts, tell the shop owner in a non-threatening manner that he needs to do the deal and, if he doesn't, you will need to retain a lawyer. Tell him that is not your first choice but he leaves you no choice. If he balks, get a lawyer. Sorry about what happened.

[Argos]

I agree with Fixed.

This would never get to trial. the insurance companies would settle. That said, keep in mind, we are only hearing one side of this.

We have not heard from the shop. How do you suppose they feel on this subject. Moreso, with the story coming from the shop to this board, and assuming the shop owner/employee were a regular poster, what would your take on it be then?

The shop taking the view that it was fine when he left, maybe HE adjusted his wheel or heard a brake rub, or wanted to make sure it was tight or take it off to change wheels or take it off to fit it in the trunk........

Really too one sided to discuss more then the cost, assuming the blame is the shops is marginal, thinking it would "go to a jury" is, with respect, a little silly.

[bluesea]

Ran into his posts at another forum, and the dude has his frame built already. He's also asking about running a 650c on the front of his Cannondale "coz it would look mean" or something like that. Anyway, at least some valid points were made so the thread was not a complete loss?

[Argos]

What?! Hahaha, that's great. I guess it goes to show that you really have to think before you just give legitamacy to a source without hearing the other side or knowing the ENTIRE situation.

Thanks!

[Serpico]

Ran into his posts at another forum, and the dude has his frame built already. He's also asking about running a 650c on the front of his Cannondale "coz it would look mean" or something like that. Anyway, at least some valid points were made so the thread was not a complete loss?

Noboby has been "had". I know this guy, he posted the same day he was looking to pickup the frame. Both threads were started on 9/30 and he says on 10/1 that he picked it up the day before. He just wanted some ammo when he went into the LBS and was looking for someone to tell him what a dealer would pay.

It's a legitimate thread, the poster isn't pulling any prank or anything. He just doesn't want to be "had" himself. I think his comments here and the bikeforum threads have been extremely reasonable.

I was unable to find the "650 wheels would look 'mean'" comment either, and even if it was posted I'm sure he was being facetious.

The guy is legit, and his question is reasonable.

:)

regards

[KillerPenguin]

Yes, the 650c wheel thread was me having fun at another forum. To the poster that pointed out that thread, read it again and see where I say that it's a joke. This question is legit. Yes, I have the bike and I picked it up on 9/30, the day I posted this inquiry. Since then, I've ridden the bike a couple of times and some more issues have come up which I'm not going to discuss.

To the poster that pointed out I may have fooled with the QR position after the adjustment was done- I did not. I was driving a station wagon so there was no need to take off the rear wheel to fit it in the car. The Bike shop's position is that He did not change the position of QR in respect to how it was adjusted before the fit session.

Now I don't think I've been unreasonable in the deal I made, the deal being that I get a discount on parts and the bike shop neither makes a profit or loses money on me. And, hopefully we'd both come out with a lesson learned.

[Argos]

Well, ok, but then I have to ask.

What lesson did the shop learn? To be wary of certain customers? If they claim to not have touched your bike as strongly as you claim they did touch your bike, it sounds like they may be under pressure from threat.

[Big Dan]

Learn how to work on your own bike. Invest in tools.....
If you have to recheck all the work that the LBS does, then just do it yourself right the first time..... :banana:

[bluesea]

Learn how to work on your own bike. Invest in tools.....
If you have to recheck all the work that the LBS does, then just do it yourself right the first time..... :banana:

A wise bit of advice, but not completle germaine to the original issue, and that is the implied trust in the expertise of the shop that a customer has a right to rely upon. Expertise is one of the main selling points of the LBS right? From a legal viewpoint, if the Peng had ridden the bike straight out of the shop and the accident occured thereafter, his case would have been stronger. Having the "shop adjusted" bike transported in a vehicle beforehand tends to create questions that will raise doubts in the favor of the shop's case. Whatever. Over and out.

[KillerPenguin]

Well, ok, but then I have to ask.

What lesson did the shop learn? To be wary of certain customers? If they claim to not have touched your bike as strongly as you claim they did touch your bike, it sounds like they may be under pressure from threat.
If I had wanted to threaten them I would have went to a lawyer. The lesson I hoped the shop owner would learn is to be more careful with how he handles a customer's bike.

[palincss]

In early august, I went to a dealer to get my position tweaked on my bike, a Cannondale R800. Unfortunatly, he didn't tighten the QR once the session was complete, and when I went to sprint later that day my rear wheel dropped out and I crashed, braking my collar bone and tweaking my frame enough to need a new one.



I'm sorry you wrecked and broke your collar bone. I had that once, and it wasn't much fun. And certainly, wrecking your frame isn't much fun either.

But I really don't understand what kind of fitting tweak would require a rear wheel to be removed, or a QR to be undone. I suppose you could come up with some kind of unlikely scenario on a bike with horizontal dropouts where you might want to oh-so-subtly tweak the position of the rear wheel, god knows why, but I'm confident your Cannondale has vertical dropouts, so even stretching things I simply can't see any reason why the wheel would have been undone in the first place.

[Tom]

They might have swapped in a QR skewer if they put his bike on a trainer, I noticed they did that up at the shop so they wouldn't scratch up mine.

[Ozz]

check your skewers before every ride. Regardless of who last touched your bike. I've popped a QR open taking my bike out a car...I'm sure it happens to others too.

Good luck and heal up fast!

:beer: