Advice for high protein diet... and cycling...

[Dekonick]

Can the two be combined with success?

[dd74]

I don't see why not. It would definitely help with the muscle rebuilding. I wouldn't eliminate all carbs though, if you're thinking about that.

[false_Aest]

depends on what you want to do.

a lot of protein (especially whey and casein), when broken down is converted to ammonia... ammonia + exercise ≠ good.

as a part of an overall recovery plan, protein is good. But you don't need to rock a protein shake. milk + sugar (Read: choco milk) immediately after a ride and then again 1 hour later is probably enough when combined with a normal diet.

HOWEVER, if you're also lifting weights (something you should be doing because consistent non-weightbearing activities can contribute to weak bones later in life.... according to newer research) i'd consider buying whey and drinking a half-serving pre-workout and a half-serving after (after combine it with sugars).

if, you're trying to gain mass... 1.5-2g of protein per lb of bodyweight is a decent place to start.




PS. I've been reading some more (new) research that's saying that soy protein isn't that great for you. The whole estrogen thing is BS (the sample group was 1- \too small and 2-pro body builders taking 0 supplements (if you know anything about that sport, you can't get that size w/out using steroids/HGH/etc and when you stop taking it, your body freaks out, test. levels drop and estrogen reads high). Blah, if your body doesn't like milk-based protein check out egg protein or rice protein ($$$$).

[Joachim]

Look into Paleo for Athletes (even though its not strictly paleo). And high quality whey protein isolate do not contain any lactose if your stomach has trouble with digesting milk based protein without having to go towards rice or pea protein.

[Dekonick]

I don't see why not. It would definitely help with the muscle rebuilding. I wouldn't eliminate all carbs though, if you're thinking about that.

Nope - no carbs won't work... I just am looking for advice on how/when/how much carb to eat and prevent a bonk...

and how much carb you should take in after a ride to replenish glycogen stores, but not cause a spike in blood glucose resulting in insulin dump... etc...

[Joachim]

Nope - no carbs won't work... I just am looking for advice on how/when/how much carb to eat and prevent a bonk...

and how much carb you should take in after a ride to replenish glycogen stores, but not cause a spike in blood glucose resulting in insulin dump... etc...

The Paleo for Athletes will work great. I've have used it with great success. Just keep an extra gel on hand since it will take a few days for you to get used to the decreased amount of carbs.

[false_Aest]

hrm. i might have misinterpreted the OP.

Care to elaborate on why you're considering going that route?

IF you're trying to drop weight I'd highly recommend reading the book "Racing Weight" by Fitzgeral (first name Matt?). Helped me + MicroWatt get down to a decent racing weight w/out dealing with the grumps, lack of energy, etc.

[rbtmcardle]

I recently (last month) have really been careful with what I am eating. I was pretty much a junk food addict and could pound sugar with the best of them.. watching my 77 yr old father struggle with Type 2 diabetes and just tired of the sugar roller coaster.

I pretty much have cut out refined sugars and flour, eating fresh blueberries, strawberries and blackberries, steel cut oatmeal and eggs for breakfast and fruits.

Really has made a difference in my energy levels and I have become leaner.

This article about sugar was an interesting find in my research. http://rdd.me/dfdtxu2q

[jaykosta]

...
I just am looking for advice on how/when/how much carb to eat and prevent a bonk...

and how much carb you should take in after a ride to replenish glycogen stores, but not cause a spike in blood glucose resulting in insulin dump... etc...
================================================== ===
My usual morning training ride lasts about 2 hours - about 1 hour earlier I eat some Fig Newtons, during the ride I drink a 25 oz. water bottle of Gatorade.
At home at the end of the ride I mix about 20 gram of whey protein with about 16 oz of Gatorade and drink that. After I get cleaned-up, I eat a mostly carb lunch that includes some protein.
-
During a long ride (e.g 3+ hours) it is necessary to eat carbs regularly to avoid bonk, e.g. 300 Cal/hour. And also drink plenty of water.
-
I don't think that a 'high protein' diet is necessary unless you are doing a very large amount of 'strength exercises'. From what I've read, about 20 grams of protein is optimum at a time, with perhaps another serving 4 hours later. Eating lots of protein is a strain on the kidneys, and requires plenty of water to flush-out the waste products.

Since cycling is mostly an 'endurance sport', getting plenty of carbs is necessary. Carbs are more efficiently made into energy than is protein or fat.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

[Fixed]

Could it be hard on your kidneys?

Cheers

[John H.]

I say yes- you can eat a lot of protein.
But you need to get a lot of good quality carbs too.
Somewhere around 60% of your calories should be carbs if doing endurance training.
Check out the book "Racing Wieght"- even if you don't want to lose weight it has some good formulas for determining how much you need in terms of carbs.
Going low carb can help you lose weight- but it can also rob you of your power and recovery. Don't make that mistake.

[Rueda Tropical]

Paleo, Aktins and the like are not high protein diets. They could be described as low carb. Typical meal on any of those diets would be a piece of meat or fish, a pile of green vegetables and a pile of salad. Maybe a piece of fresh fruit after Although by volume carbs (with lots of fibre) are the biggest component by far on the plate -the carbo load of leafy green vegetables and salad greens is very low. So the percent of fat and protein is larger then the carb component. Hence "low carb". You are eating many times more vegetables and salad greens on these "low carb" diets then the average carb heavy American diet.

The carbs these diets leave out are based on processed grains and sugar. Pasta, bread, pastries, milk, ice cream, etc.,

A high protein, low fat diet would be dangerous.

[Dekonick]

I am a fairly heavy lifter - power lifting... I feel at my best with low sugar intake, if I partake in too much goodness (pasta, sugars, etc...) I suffer from insulin dumping... My doc seems to think I am sensitive to carbs. I admit, after following her advice, I 'feel' better on a 'zone' type diet (ratio's of protein/crotein/fat) but find it way too easy to bonk...

Looking for that magic formula... I'll check into paleo for athletes...

[Fixed]

Paleo, Aktins and the like are not high protein diets. They could be described as low carb. Typical meal on any of those diets would be a piece of meat or fish, a pile of green vegetables and a pile of salad. Maybe a piece of fresh fruit after Although by volume carbs (with lots of fibre) are the biggest component by far on the plate -the carbo load of leafy green vegetables and salad greens is very low. So the percent of fat and protein is larger then the carb component. Hence "low carb". You are eating many times more vegetables and salad greens on these "low carb" diets then the average carb heavy American diet.

The carbs these diets leave out are based on processed grains and sugar. Pasta, bread, pastries, milk, ice cream, etc.,

A high protein, low fat diet would be dangerous.

I lost 15 pounds in five weeks with very little exercise on this kind of diet
Sugar comes in many forms I keep away from most of it
I am almost down to my old racing weight
Cheers

[Bob Loblaw]

There are a few components at work, I think.

I think if you focus on carbs with a low glycemic index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycemic_index) you will do better. Lower glycemic index carbs are processed more slowly by your metabolism and fed into your bloodstream slowly instead of a big rush all at once. It will help avoid the insulin dump situation.

You can decrease the effective glycemic index even further by combining carbs and proteins into one meal, e.g., a some whole grain pasta mixed with lean chicken breast and cheese.

Part of it is training. Your body stores carbs in the muscles and liver, but it needs to learn to do that. The more long rides you do, the more your body learns to store carbs for extended efforts.

Eating on the bike is key as well. Gels have a notoriously high glycemic index, which usually works fine for on bike energy, but you should experiment with other things like Clif bars or some such which combine some protein with a mix of carb types. Aim for 250 calories at the end of each hour on the bike.

Recovery carbs are key, because that's when your body socks away carbs for next time. Everyone has their own recommendations, but in your case, I'd go with something basic like a glass of milk and a sandwich on 100% whole wheat, see how that works.

Good luck

BL

[jaykosta]

You might be having trouble with gluten (from wheat products). Some people are sensitive to it, but not to a level that would be detectable as a 'disease' or allergy.

Perhaps try a gluten-free diet for a few weeks.
Instead of regular wheat pasta, find 'Tinkyama' brand rice pasta - it is quite good, but needs a little more care when cooking so it doesn't get too soft. Cooked rice, beans, potato, corn chips/cereal, etc.are all good substitues for wheat.

If doing total gluten-free doesn't work for you, then try to cut back on wheat as much as you can.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

[dsb]

Just as a data point...

http://mybloodybikeblog.com/century-nutrition/

Dave

[verticaldoug]

You can skip the gels. I've switched to Lim Cakes. You spend a little time making these youself, but nothing as satisfying as real food on a bike. Rice, Bacon and Egg with a little soy sauce. It is like eating cold fried rice. Hits the spot.

For shorting bursts,a banana is good. And if you bonk, a banana and a coke is a cure all. It's that simple.

[Mikej]

Could it be hard on your kidneys?

Cheers

It is hard on the kidneys. you will be dumping any protien over about 15 grams worth per sitting and you kidneys will have to take care of the rest of it. It is called ketosis or something that happens when the liver is depleted of glycogen and the kidneys have to make fuel from the protien, the liver has to release some heavy duty stuff to do this. And your brain needs the glycogen / glucagon, it can't use the fatty acid converted energy that yoour muscles can (supporting krebs cycle)Too much protien is bad.

[JasonF]

Look into Paleo for Athletes (even though its not strictly paleo).

+1 My wife is training for a marathon, is eating "Paleo" and has never felt better or had more energy. She credits this book for her increased performance and energy level. As Joachim said, it's not 100% Paleo but I doubt that matters to you!

[christian]

Rice, Bacon and Egg with a little soy sauce. It is like eating cold fried rice. Hits the spot.

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, and peruse the recipe. Do you offer free trials on Saturday mornings?

[dsb]

... And your brain needs the glycogen / glucagon, it can't use the fatty acid converted energy that yoour muscles can...

"Our brain can only function with glucose and ketones. Since we can’t store more than about 24 hours worth of glucose, we would all die of hypoglycemia if ever forced to fast for more than 24 hours. Fortunately, our liver can take fat and select amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) and turn them into ketones, first and foremost to feed our brains. Hence, our body’s ability to produce ketones is required for basic survival."

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous

[Rueda Tropical]

Low-carb eating is the evolution-derived diet of humans (unlike other primates). Humans are carnivores, hunters, because human evolution happened pre-fire and pre-agriculture when very few carbs were edible. For carnivores, gluconeogenesis in the liver supplies all necessary glucose.

But if someone abruptly switches from high carbs to very low carbs, gluconeogenesis will be inadequate to supply enough glucose - causing weakness, dizziness and ketosis.

Well if gluconeogenesis is supposed to be adequate, why does it fail? When you eat carbs they are stored as glucose (glycogen) in your glucose fuel tank - your liver. When you manufacture glucose from protein via gluconeogenesis it is stored in that same fuel tank, intermingled with those dietary carbs.

Enzymes, including gluconeogenic enzymes, are expressed only as needed. If your glucose storage is kept full by dietary carbs, expression of gluconeogenic enzymes is reduced. Eventually your gluconeogenic machinery becomes atrophied, inadequate to supply 100% of your glucose requirements.

So, contrary to usual practice, the proper way of switching from high-carb to low-carb is to gradually reduce dietary carbs over the course of about a month, inciting gradual rebuilding of gluconeogenic machinery. Then all those “Induction” woes which convince many that low-carb is not for them are avoided - as is ketosis.

http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2008/02/is-ketosis-necessary-on-low-carb-diet.html

[verticaldoug]

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter, and peruse the recipe. Do you offer free trials on Saturday mornings?

Ask Happycamp. I think he had some Lim Cakes I left at Signature one time. DarrenCt, Soren and I ate these on the 6 Gap. My wife laughs at Allen Lim. All he did was copy his mom's lunch recipes. My wife now makes me refer to her as my nutritionist as she was making this stuff forever.