Carbon...why?

[jpw]

I can hear the feathers being ruffled but what is the compelling reason, the rationale, for carbon frames?

Humor me, if only for a moment in time.

[Andreu]

strength/weight ratio is pretty good.

[Dr. Doofus]

in theory, the layers give engineers more creativity in designing tube and joint shapes, thicknessess, and stress responses (the direction of the fibers)....


a retro gourmet would say that ritchie and round and nagasawa and some others can acheive a perfectly satifactory result with some simple butted tubes...but hey...I, Doofus am going to build up a wacky-shaped "hydroformed" contraption that Doof, I who am, will still suck on, but this is all besides the point...carbon offers variations and choices not possible with other matierials...whether the design consequences of these variations and options makes any real difference is open to discussion


things like where your saddle is, where your drops are, and how long your stem is make a hell of a lot more difference than what your tubes are made out of...unless you're last name is jeremy, and then we know that its all about the tube(s)....

[Andreu]

It could be argued that given you have to strngthen certain areas with more material and that you have to lay up the carbon in the direction of the fibres it actually gives less scope for design.
A

[Serotta PETE]

Neither are better or worse - - just different.

you will not lose or win a sprint or race because you are on one or the other

It is great to have all these choices... Pick the one that makes you want to jump on the bike and ride :bike:

PETE

[Dr. Doofus]

and why does your flagship frame have to share the name of a really stupid richard harris flick although bo derek was hot at least to my sixth-grade eyes even in that scene where she got her leg in the cast bit off

so yeah

[Fixed]

Bro some make em with big fat tubes so they can put their name really big on em.i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[SoCalSteve]

Why not???

Variety is the spice of life!

[ergott]

For more information see:

The MILLION other threads discussing this!
:beer:

[lnomalley]

cosumers push the industry for innovation every year even it's senseless or cosmetic. consumers push for lighter bikes to the point where the average consumer is more concerned about bike weight than fit. carbon bikes start appearing that actually work well (remember how long ago those kestrels showed up and were 'exotic', remember when lemond rode his rebadged calfee in the tour, remember vitus?).... and are lighter than steel.. and consumer demand increases....

consumers 'think' carbon is best... companies that swore off carbon have to make carbon bikes to stay in business or to maintain the image that they are on the forefront oin their other materials. companies start refining the application and design of the materials.... and really good carbon bikes start showing up. they dont rust, they can be manufacutred to specific tolerances and or over seas, and the market place is crazy for carbon even in applications where other materials work better (like stems, brake calipers, and cranks).

people oversimplify that steel is antiquated, that aluminum is harsh, and that carbon is cutting edge.. and here we are at a leading maker of ti and steel bikes arguing about the price of carbon after asking them to make an all carbon bike!
and then there is the obvious evolutionary question: if my carbon fork works so well... why not a carbon frame!

dont think for a second that if every yahoo went to bike shops looking for bamboo frames that we wouldnt be here fighting about the price on the serotta "gilligan" all bamboo exotic superframe.... some carbon bikes suck, some dont, and some are awesome.

the beauty of the market place is that you can go get a bike made in any material you want... and just about any combo of materials.. in just about any city in any cycling country. instead of critiquing materials, we could be celebrating that never in the history of our sport has their been so much choice.

with enough patience you can have a bike made for you out of everything from plastic to wood to steel with rare drop outs and lugs to ti and carbon to secret stuff.... and it can all be made custom. so let's stop with the complaints already. no one is saying that you can only ride a carbon bike.. no one is eliminating choices for you... its that the market is demanding diverse options.
with the touch of a finger to a button you can get a new raliegh steel single speed road bike, and aluminum custon orbea, a bamboo calfee, a french look, and american homage to a touring bike in custom carbon, a ti carbon wonderbike, a custom carbon rig from a guy in texas or from here, or dozens of other places, you can have a stoner paint your bike to his content... or you can find an old reverse sloping tt rig on ebay. and you can still get an original brooks saddle or tires made in the clement molds or hand sewn in belguim. its all good and its never been better!

[Nick H.]

I'd like to read Serotta's answer to this question. But i'm new here - do any Serotta peeps participate in this forum? i met the chief designer at City Cycle in San Francisco in March - and i know he would have plenty of strong views on this or any other frame-building subject - can any of you guys email him and ask him to participate in this debate? Maybe he's just too busy finishing the Maywishy?

[Argos]

Wait, wait, how about this for a thread......

Campy, why?

:beer:

[jpw]

Err..., no.

[Argos]

Pretty much. Your question is asked in with the pretence that it is already a questionable material, which, regardless of opinion, because yours or mine, they are just opionions, and Carbon is not a questionable material.

Major manufacturers all over the world are scrambling to take advantage of it's design properties for multiple industries to the point where there is currently a World-Wide Shortage. If you think you've seen a lot of Carbon in the past 20 years as an officianado of bikes, just wait. That was just the discovery period. Now that its potential is being recognized by other MAJOR industries, and the technology and knowledge is there to work it properly, cost effectively, we are going to start seeing carbon in many more areas in a structural capacity, as well as for it's light weight.
Car bodies and Frames... Boats... That new ship they built on Battlestar Galactica... Oh, wait, that last one was Make believe :D

Seriously, now that they are getting to the point that they can tune it so well, you gotta think that if Price was not an issue, the question may become:

"Steel... Why?"

[e-RICHIE]

why?
because.

[Ozz]

and why does your flagship frame have to share the name of a really stupid richard harris flick although bo derek was hot at least to my sixth-grade eyes even in that scene where she got her leg in the cast bit off

so yeah
truly bad movie....but I kinda like the bike! Imagine that.... ;)

and what e-richie said!

[jpw]

Pretty much. Your question is asked in with the pretence that it is already a questionable material, which, regardless of opinion, because yours or mine, they are just opionions, and Carbon is not a questionable material.

Major manufacturers all over the world are scrambling to take advantage of it's design properties for multiple industries to the point where there is currently a World-Wide Shortage. If you think you've seen a lot of Carbon in the past 20 years as an officianado of bikes, just wait. That was just the discovery period. Now that its potential is being recognized by other MAJOR industries, and the technology and knowledge is there to work it properly, cost effectively, we are going to start seeing carbon in many more areas in a structural capacity, as well as for it's light weight.
Car bodies and Frames... Boats... That new ship they built on Battlestar Galactica... Oh, wait, that last one was Make believe :D

Seriously, now that they are getting to the point that they can tune it so well, you gotta think that if Price was not an issue, the question may become:

"Steel... Why?"
"No" because Campy is not a materials innovation. It's a *%@ing religion you sinner!! :D :D :D

[jpw]

Was I too strong? Shocking isn't it, being a zealot.

[jdoiv]

Was I too strong? Shocking isn't it, being a zealot.

to the choir man...... :banana:

[Brian Smith]

e-R:
If this thread goes over 5 pages, would you please ask for an appearance by "coach?"

I trying to be preemptively grumpy on a nice friday. :)

[ergott]

why?
because.
I have to have one of those money clips! Where can I get one!!???

[Argos]

If you look at my "sled 1" in my signature, you will see I was using Campy as an example. Problem if I used Shimano, Why? is a lot of people would have agreed. No hard feelings! :beer: Just discussion.

[Jeff N.]

Wait, wait, how about this for a thread......

Campy, why?

:beer:There's just no good answer to that one...not with DA-7800 available. Jeff N.

[jpw]

Now I remember you, the garage door guy. I think I was rude once before when I described your slopers as 'dysfunctional'. Just discourse. Actually Shimano is fine, but don't they also make... fishing tackle? ;)

[e-RICHIE]

e-R:
If this thread goes over 5 pages, would you please ask for an appearance by "coach?"

I trying to be preemptively grumpy on a nice friday. :)

listen to the coach...

[Argos]

They wouldn't be slopers if my damn Legs would grow another inch. I've tried using the force, but....

[jpw]

Surgery?

[Argos]

Don't Chinese (or japanese) women do that, they extend their shins by breaking them and spacing them and making the bone grow. Hmmmm... No, I'll have a slight "engineered" slope.

[Big Dan]

Kids, always listen to the coach.............. :D

[Fixed]

Kids, always listen to the coach.............. :DBro I always listen to what da man says.cheers :beer: oh I'm back from the pub.

[Air Jer]

Where can I get one of those carbon fiber money clips? The aluminum one I had succombed to catastrophic failure, the steel one I had rusted beyond repair, and Ti is one my wife would not buy for me as she said it was too expensive.

[DarkStar]

Here's the only reason to buy carbon!

http://www.dynamiccomposites.com/products.html

[vaxn8r]

Here's the only reason to buy carbon!

http://www.dynamiccomposites.com/products.html
This cracked me up. Thanks for that.

Also I found myself wanting to buy one. My wife just said..."why?"

[soulspinner]

Can I get a money clip of butted 6/4 ti?

[cs124]

Don't Chinese (or japanese) women do that, they extend their shins by breaking them and spacing them and making the bone grow. Hmmmm... No, I'll have a slight "engineered" slope.

...of course we would be better off breaking and extending our femurs...more power to be gained that way ;)

short legs... :crap:

[jpw]

...of course we would be better off breaking and extending our femurs...more power to be gained that way ;)

short legs... :crap:
I don't know what a surgeon would charge, but the price of the Meivici means it might be a close call.

[Ozz]

...of course we would be better off breaking and extending our femurs...more power to be gained that way ;)

short legs... :crap:
would this fall under "doping"??? ;)

[ergott]

Can I get a money clip of butted 6/4 ti?

http://www.superiortitanium.com/Images/Electric-Green.jpg

Just ordered mine. It even matches my bike :hello: :hello:

[Jeff N.]

But what about longevity? I mean, have these seats really been R&D'd enough to be put on the market? Do they come with any kind of guarantee? I mean, a catastrophic failure after a bowl of my wife's beans.......Jeff N.

[ergott]

But what about longevity? I mean, have these seats really been R&D'd enough to be put on the market? Do they come with any kind of guarantee? I mean, a catastrophic failure after a bowl of my wife's beans.......Jeff N.

I'm gettin one tinted green to match my Ottrott next!!

[jpw]

Here's the only reason to buy carbon!

http://www.dynamiccomposites.com/products.html

Perspective.

Do you think that somewhere out there in the nebulous web world there is a site dedicated to the noble art of toilet seat manufacture and usage (?!) where the self appointed officianados of said have a message board with a thread linked to the Serotta site and the Meivici in particular, a link that really tickles them funny silly about the bizarre usage other people put carbon to, namely bicycle frames?

No, I don't think so either. Relief all round no doubt because for a moment there I was getting seriously worried about the implications of this threads direction. I wonder sometimes if the new visitor to this website gets the best of impressions.

Perspective.

[bluesea]

Carbon fiber will loose some of its stiffness over time, basically, it gets softer (relatively speaking). Whether the average rider or racer can perceive this degradation is a different issue.

I race a type of ocean kayak call a surf-ski. They are about 19' x 1.5' and weigh 21lb to 22lb., and consist of a vacuum-bagged carbon/epoxy layup. My current is the 3rd built of carbon fiber. When these boats are new to about 1 year old, they have an almost metallic ping to them. Lets say I'm preparing to paddle, the boat is unladen, and is floating more or less freely and the wind gently blows it into a rock sticking out of the water. A young boat will give off a "brittle highy pitched ping-like sound that is very sharp in its resonance" a very striking sound that exudes of stiffness and tensile strength. An older boat will give off a simple "thud".

When carbon fiber was introduced to state-of-the-art racing yachts, the superior stiffness of the material forced an improvenment in rigging as well. The boats were flexing much less from bow to stern, with the base of the mast as fulcrum, thereby transfering increased stress to the rig and rigging. These boats are noticably more punishing to the crews in rough seas due to the increased stiffness. It is common knowledge that the boats become "soft" after a season (or less) of racing.

[The Spider]

I reckon I put a fair bit less pressure on my frame than mother nature does on your hull. The ocean's a hard mistress.

I'll raise the antee (sp?) on the toilet seat:


http://www.schmolke-carbon-titan.de/carbon/images/runde_tasse_gr.JPG

$200 coffee cup!

[shinomaster]

E-Richie is hilarious!!! I died laughing....Good thing I have a carbon fiber toilet seat. I have my carbon in the rigt place.

[bluesea]

I reckon I put a fair bit less pressure on my frame than mother nature does on your hull. The ocean's a hard mistress.

I'll raise the antee (sp?) on the toilet set:


http://www.schmolke-carbon-titan.de/carbon/images/runde_tasse_gr.JPG

$200 coffee cup!

Very true, And these boats are spec-ed a to higher degree of engineering. That said, these factors will come more into play as carbon bike construction continues to explore the extreme limitations of the material and application. Just food for thought.

[nicrump]

Carbon fiber will loose some of its stiffness over time, basically, it gets softer (relatively speaking). Whether the average rider or racer can perceive this degradation is a different issue.

I race a type of ocean kayak call a surf-ski. They are about 19' x 1.5' and weigh 21lb to 22lb., and consist of a vacuum-bagged carbon/epoxy layup. My current is the 3rd built of carbon fiber. When these boats are new to about 1 year old, they have an almost metallic ping to them. Lets say I'm preparing to paddle, the boat is unladen, and is floating more or less freely and the wind gently blows it into a rock sticking out of the water. A young boat will give off a "brittle highy pitched ping-like sound that is very sharp in its resonance" a very striking sound that exudes of stiffness and tensile strength. An older boat will give off a simple "thud".

When carbon fiber was introduced to state-of-the-art racing yachts, the superior stiffness of the material forced an improvenment in rigging as well. The boats were flexing much less from bow to stern, with the base of the mast as fulcrum, thereby transfering increased stress to the rig and rigging. These boats are noticably more punishing to the crews in rough seas due to the increased stiffness. It is common knowledge that the boats become "soft" after a season (or less) of racing.

Yeah, you are probably right. That’s why Boeing and Airbus are replacing many aluminum structural main frame components with carbon epoxy laminates in their new aircrafts. I assume Porsche is also thinking that their $300k GT will handle much better when it softens up after a year or two of driving.

I won’t dispute that your boat and possibly the sailing rigs to reference have softened over time but I will say that is it more likely due to their process which is likely a sandwich construction with inadequate foam cores and adhesive bond issues.

Sandwich structures can be among the stiffest engineered structures and will use much less carbon than non sandwich counterparts. The issues are bond failures between core and skin and core breakdown. These can “slightly” break down and result loss of mechanical characteristics within the component without total component failure.

[nicrump]

It could be argued that given you have to strngthen certain areas with more material and that you have to lay up the carbon in the direction of the fibres it actually gives less scope for design.
A


That is an interesting point. But one could also argue that when strength is not needed in an isotropic fashion, placing carbon in a strategic manner results in a lighter more purpose specific component.

[CalfeeFly]

Ride, stiff, light, won't rust, best of all worlds to the true carbon believers...those of us who rode "carbon when carbon wasn't cool." (I need to give Barbara Mandrell some credit for the line.)

Can other materials be made in a similar fashion...sure. Some people like carbon the most other ti, scandium is getting more popular etc. etc.

Lemond has ridden a Calfee since the last part of his career and still has two of them. He was a believer early on. (They weren't called a Calfee then and of course they were rebadged for racing. Now his have customer paint jobs.)

[bluesea]

I won’t dispute that your boat and possibly the sailing rigs to reference have softened over time but I will say that is it more likely due to their process which is likely a sandwich construction with inadequate foam cores and adhesive bond issues.

Sandwich structures can be among the stiffest engineered structures and will use much less carbon than non sandwich counterparts. The issues are bond failures between core and skin and core breakdown. These can “slightly” break down and result loss of mechanical characteristics within the component without total component failure.

Good point about sandwich core construction, but my kayaks are straight laminate and it seems that the entire structure softens (deadens) pretty evenly. For sure, bycicles are a very different engineering solution, but where there is flex I suspect there will occur micro-fractures in the fiber and epoxy matrix. I'm not trying to say this a huge issue, or an issue to be concerned with. The point is the condition exists.

Anyway, I had an intense interval session with the boat right till sundown, then went drinking till late last night. Am feeling the effects as I type. Have to be ready for a pre-sunrise bike ride in an hour or so, and try to get in a morning surf session and an easy paddle in the afternoon...its going to be a rough day.

[marle]

:) I love your pic of the filthy luca - c-notes!!

Profit = rev - cost. With cf you get more rev and less cost so more luca.

Eureka

[Big Dan]

These carbon fibre people are always mad and defensive......... :confused:
Just ride your stuff and forget about us that don't get it...... :D

[vaxn8r]

These carbon fibre people are always mad and defensive......... :confused:
Just ride your stuff and forget about us that don't get it...... :D
Funny, I thought it was the steel heads who were...aw well, it takes two to tango. :)

[nicrump]

:) I love your pic of the filthy luca - c-notes!!

Profit = rev - cost. With cf you get more rev and less cost so more luca.

Eureka

Huh? materials on my carbon frame is over 3x the cost of materials for a lugged steel. Labor is more than double as well.

For the record, I still love steel. I still build with steel and always will.

[The Spider]

Bluesea, you should be riding a Parlee as Bob used to be involved in the sailboat industry....which is how he got the idea of bikes I believe, after producing windsurfers and such. There goes your theory of the engineering eventually making it's way into our little worlds, wave's up!

[jpw]

http://www.cyclesdeoro.com/images/Interbike%20Shows/Interbike%202005/Wednesday/P1010006.JPG


Carbon shards.

[JeffreyG]

Thanks for link. Its is the new background on my PC. To bad there isn't a bunch of Chinese flags on the carbon fiber pieces.

[Jeff N.]

Thanks for link. Its is the new background on my PC. To bad there isn't a bunch of Chinese flags on the carbon fiber pieces.That says it all. Jeff N.