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CPP
08-25-2012, 03:01 PM
I'm not a Lance hater. I'm far from a Lance fan. I am a fan of cycling and I am naive.
I think I will remember Lance like this..... It works for me

67-59
08-25-2012, 03:08 PM
I will remember him as the guy who everyone in the peloton - teammates and opponents alike - agreed prepared for the TdF like no other rider before or since. We always hear about contenders riding a potentially decisive climb for the first time in a big race - that was never the case with Lance. He always knew every curve, rise or railroad track that might affect the outcome. About the only thing he didn't anticipate we're musette bag straps.

If everybody did their jobs like Lance did his, our GDP would go up by 50%.

firerescuefin
08-25-2012, 03:17 PM
I will remember him as the guy who everyone in the peloton - teammates and opponents alike - agreed prepared for the TdF like no other rider before or since. We always hear about contenders riding a potentially decisive climb for the first time in a big race - that was never the case with Lance. He always knew every curve, rise or railroad track that might affect the outcome. About the only thing he didn't anticipate we're musette bag straps.

If everybody did their jobs like Lance did his, our GDP would go up by 50%.

To this I will agree. His singlemindedness, determination, and preparation (physical and mental) "changed the game".

Elefantino
08-25-2012, 03:23 PM
I will remember staring at his back wheel at a leisurely 20 mph, thinking that if I got too close I'd take down a two-time TdF winner.

I'll remember him on a panel with my mom and almost tearing up as she spoke.

I'll remember the cheering in the oncology ward.

I'll remember seeing and really, really wanting Lance model Nikes.

I'll remember the excitement he brought to the Tour.

93legendti
08-25-2012, 03:30 PM
The tactics.
His bike handling after Beloki's crash.
His crash and subsequent victory on Luz Ardiden.
Waiting for Jan after Jan's crash.
Changing his pedalling style.
The look.
Shaking hands with Jan after they crossed the finish line together.
How happy he was for George after his summit victory.
His pre ride of the final TT course in 2003 in the rain.
"How you like them apples?"
Struggling to match the repeated attacks on the 2003 ascent of the Alpe.
Blowing up on the Joux Plane.

echelon_john
08-25-2012, 03:34 PM
I'll remember him standing on the podium, saying he 'felt sorry for the cynics; those who don't believe.' (paraphrasing)

He definitely put in the hours and the preparation. and his work ethic was probably the most admirable thing about the guy when you get right down to it.

But that's what I'll remember.

1centaur
08-25-2012, 06:28 PM
I was a Reggie Jackson fan when he hit three home runs in the world series, watching on TV as it happened.

I needed a new tennis player to follow and picked this Swiss guy in the semis of his first Wimbledon because I liked his style. Turned out to be the greatest of all time.

I was a Lakers fan when Kobe entered the league and have been on many thrill rides with them since.

And I was a Lance fan when I became a cyclist in 2002 (just a rider in 2001 :)). How very rare it is in sports to be a fan of somebody under huge pressure and expectations to be great who then actually does great things on cue. Nobody was better at that than Lance in the TdF. Year after year he rode away from the best when it counted as I cheered and pumped my fist with joy and disbelief.

That joy will remain a fond memory, but now compartmentalized in an unfortunately more mature understanding of the sport. Lance brought me to a better understanding of cancer treatment and training and discipline and mental toughness because of that original joy, and this sad denouement cannot undo those things. He's made my life better because of what he achieved. And he's done more good for more people than any cyclist I can think of. There's no hater here, just a guy who wishes life was better than it is, and that professional cycling still held the potential to provide the joy I felt not many years ago.

saab2000
08-25-2012, 06:59 PM
I remember joking that he would become world champion in 1993 and the next day being speechless when he actually won the race.

SoCalSteve
08-25-2012, 07:05 PM
I choose to remember that the foundation that he started 15 years ago has raised a 1/2 a billion dollars (yes $500,000.00...that's a lot of zero's) for cancer research... isn't everything else beyond that pretty much a far second?

Oh, and the many 1,000's of people with cancer that he inspired...again, everything else really seems unimportant, doesn't it?

Just sayin' (some REAL WORLD perspective)

Fixed
08-25-2012, 07:21 PM
The little kid running to an national iron kids victory
Cheers

CunegoFan
08-25-2012, 07:21 PM
I choose to remember that the foundation that he started 15 years ago has raised a 1/2 a billion dollars (yes $500,000.00...that's a lot of zero's) for cancer research... isn't everything else beyond that pretty much a far second?

Livestrong does not give money to cancer research.

I'll remember a bully who was never happy unless he was hurting someone else.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/columnists/2009/7/27/1248733565390/Astana-001.jpg

Sandy
08-25-2012, 07:23 PM
I choose to remember that the foundation that he started 15 years ago has raised a 1/2 a billion dollars (yes $500,000.00...that's a lot of zero's) for cancer research... isn't everything else beyond that pretty much a far second?

Oh, and the many 1,000's of people with cancer that he inspired...again, everything else really seems unimportant, doesn't it?

Just sayin' (some REAL WORLD perspective)

It is sometimes difficult to separate Lance the cyclist from Lance the personality, and Lance the individual who did so much for programs and and services for cancer survivors, giving inspiration/hope for cancer victims. But as an older member of the forum, I often look at what I have accomplished in my life, and what I have given to improve this world and individuals so less fortunate than I have been.Looking at what Lance has done for others, I am humbled. He will leave this world a better place. So I, like SoCalSteve, will focus on that, and leave the other to those who seem to care about it.



Sandy

azrider
08-25-2012, 07:24 PM
Livestrong does not give money to cancer research.

I'll remember a bully who was never happy unless he was hurting someone else.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/columnists/2009/7/27/1248733565390/Astana-001.jpg

Ugghh......dude we get it. I crack up at how personal some people take this stuff.

firerescuefin
08-25-2012, 07:26 PM
Ugghh......dude we get it. I crack up at how personal some people take this stuff.

Mods...Please create a subforum for CunegoFan and TonyT to have rockem sockem robot battles in.

azrider
08-25-2012, 07:28 PM
How does that ignore function work again? Amazing how omnipresent one's negativity can reach.....sheesh

CunegoFan
08-25-2012, 07:32 PM
Ugghh......dude we get it. I crack up at how personal some people take this stuff.

Sorry inject a dose of reality. I'll leave you guys to your circle jerk.

azrider
08-25-2012, 07:35 PM
Sorry inject a dose of reality. I'll leave you guys to your circle jerk.

Ha....i love it. I hope your day gets better buddy.

firerescuefin
08-25-2012, 07:38 PM
Sorry inject a dose of reality. I'll leave you guys to your circle jerk.

You and about 5 others that come to mind would be better served forming your own version of forum based reality...as in somewhere else. There is a difference between sharing differing opinions and being a complete @ss...and you crossed to the other side long ago. Time for the mods to intervene IMO.

The intent of the OP (IMO) was to have a thread that was not completely negative...congrats for having the emotional IQ of a rock.

BumbleBeeDave
08-25-2012, 07:41 PM
Kiss and make up--and give the rest of us some PEACE!

BBD

Tony T
08-25-2012, 07:54 PM
I choose to remember that the foundation that he started 15 years ago has raised a 1/2 a billion dollars (yes $500,000.00...that's a lot of zero's) for cancer research... isn't everything else beyond that pretty much a far second?

Lance does better than spend it on research. There are other foundations that do that, so he has choses to focus on other areas

And in addition to the LAF, Lance is very active in raising awareness with politicians. I'm amazed at what he has done with the LAF. We need more people like him.

Here's where the LAF chooses to allocate its funds:
http://www.livestrong.org/App_Themes/Livestrong/images/homepage/chartWide.png

Tony T
08-25-2012, 07:57 PM
Mods...Please create a subforum for CunegoFan and TonyT to have rockem sockem robot battles in.

Hey, leave me out of this one. I've made a decision to ignore him.

earlfoss
08-25-2012, 08:01 PM
The two that stand out most to me were his 1993 worlds win. The look on Indurain's face in the photos surrounding the aftermath of the race says it all.

His win dedicated to Fabio Casartelli. This one I watched as a kid and it still inspires me.

That said, I dislike him as a human being. Good bike racer though.

SoCalSteve
08-25-2012, 09:20 PM
It is sometimes difficult to separate Lance the cyclist from Lance the personality, and Lance the individual who did so much for programs and and services for cancer survivors, giving inspiration/hope for cancer victims. But as an older member of the forum, I often look at what I have accomplished in my life, and what I have given to improve this world and individuals so less fortunate than I have been.Looking at what Lance has done for others, I am humbled. He will leave this world a better place. So I, like SoCalSteve, will focus on that, and leave the other to those who seem to care about it.



Sandy

Gets it!

Thank you Sandy..You too are an inspiration to us all on this Forum!

sonoray
08-25-2012, 09:38 PM
I remember how incredibly hot his ex-wife Kristin was. So much better looking than Sheryl Crow, Kate Hudson, and current baby-momma.

firerescuefin
08-25-2012, 09:55 PM
Gets it!

Thank you Sandy..You too are an inspiration to us all on this Forum!

Steve/Sandy...Question....I don't "get it"...how important are motives? I don't believe there is an altruistic bone in Armstrtongs body...and the .com side of Livestrong is a money machine that gives very little to charity.

From a Utilitarian perspective...I get what you're saying...As a human being, I think Armstrong is far more interested in what Livestrong does for him (exposure, platform, good will, money) than what it does for others.

Bob Loblaw
08-25-2012, 10:04 PM
Then again, how many of the good, likeable guys in sport have done as much for as many people as Armstrong? He has a lot of fans in the cancer community who know him as a cancer crusader and philanthropist first, and a bike racer second. Whatever his motivations, he is a hero and a symbol to a lot of people for reasons far more important than sporting success.

BL

Steve/Sandy...Question....I don't "get it"...how important are motives? I don't believe their is an altruistic bone in Armstrtongs body...and the .com side of Livestrong is a money machine that gives very little to charity.

From a Utilitarian perspective...I get what you're saying...As a human being, I think Armstrong is far more interested in what Livestrong does for him (exposure, platform, good will, money) than what it does for others.

Jason E
08-25-2012, 10:08 PM
How is there no conflict with the lie it was built upon? How many times did he play that angle in proving his cleanliness? The organization may do a lot of good, I am sure it probably does, but the ego-ist that had to have it named after himself has been lying to those people for years. I don't get it.

I had Testicular Cancer. Not for one moment did I look at Lance in any other light than what I thought he was before I was sick.

I enjoyed watching the races just like everyone else, but now that we know what we know, how does this get reconciled. It's all built on a lie.

firerescuefin
08-25-2012, 10:11 PM
How is there no conflict with the lie it was built upon? How many times did he play that angle in proving his cleanliness? The organization may do a lot of good, I am sure it probably does, but the ego-ist that had to have it named after himself has been lying to those people for years. I don't get it.

I had Testicular Cancer. Not for one moment did I look at Lance in any other light than what I thought he was before I was sick.

I enjoyed watching the races just like everyone else, but now that we know what we know, how does this get reconciled. It's all built on a lie.


Bob...I get what your saying, but my paradigm of the whole thing is in line with Jasons......except I have never dealt with Cancer (as in having it myself). Motive means a lot to me, but that's just how I'm wired.

choke
08-25-2012, 10:38 PM
His win dedicated to Fabio Casartelli. +11ty billion Regardless of everything he won before and after, that was his shining moment IMO.

Tony T
08-25-2012, 10:55 PM
Then again, how many of the good, likeable guys in sport have done as much for as many people as Armstrong? He has a lot of fans in the cancer community who know him as a cancer crusader and philanthropist first, and a bike racer second. Whatever his motivations, he is a hero and a symbol to a lot of people for reasons far more important than sporting success.

BL

Many people only see things as Black/White, Good/Bad. Truth is, most things are shades of gray. I "get it" how many just can't get past someone's attitude, and therefore can't support anything that person does (its as if they were snubbed in attempting to get an autograph, then carry a petty grudge for the rest of their lives).

Truth is, pro cycling is a very competitive sport, and while nice guys don't always finish last, it's almost impossible to perform at that level without having your competitors (and your teammates) find you difficult. One of the greatest CEO's of our time was Steve Jobs, and he was notoriously hard on his staff and co-workers. It comes with the territory.

Tony T
08-25-2012, 11:00 PM
...but the ego-ist that had to have it named after himself.

Most Foundations are (i.e. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation), and many major contributions are named (Carnagie Hall, Hopkins University, etc, etc.)

Not sure what name you would have liked Armstrong to name the Foundation, but I don't think that if Lance named it the "Cure Cancer Foundation" that it would have raised $500,000,000. Ego had nothing to to with it.

firerescuefin
08-25-2012, 11:15 PM
Tony...I appreciate your like for Armstrong.....I used to be a huge fan...and there are aspects of his approach to sport that I admire, but I don't believe he is a good guy...at all. Perhaps that's simplistic, but that's a non starter for me with anyone......I am glad that hundreds of thousands (maybe more) have look to and been inspired by him and I see the good in that, but to say that I hold him in high esteem, or think that he did this for any other reason than to prop himself up and line his own pockets.....knowing what I know and interfacing with the people I have...I can't get there. My question to Steve and Sandy was...do you just look past that..or do you choose to believe something different?

1centaur
08-26-2012, 09:00 AM
I don't believe he is a good guy...at all. Perhaps that's simplistic, but that's a non starter for me with anyone

Once an interviewer asked him what one of the biggest myths about him was, and he said, "That I'm a nice guy."

I don't think he's nice, but I don't think he did all the good he did with cynical self-interest as his sole motivation. He really is part good and part bad, like many of us. He knows it and accepts it. I'm sure as he comes to the podium to speak about cancer he realizes it's self-serving AND other-serving. Kind of like those mega-billion Wall Streeters who do major charitable works by night while sharp-elbowing their way to gold-plated shower stalls by day.

Jason E
08-26-2012, 10:27 AM
Most Foundations are (i.e. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation), and many major contributions are named (Carnagie Hall, Hopkins University, etc, etc.)

Not sure what name you would have liked Armstrong to name the Foundation, but I don't think that if Lance named it the "Cure Cancer Foundation" that it would have raised $500,000,000. Ego had nothing to to with it.

Actually I would have thought that the right thing to do would have been to throw his name and support behind an established organization like the American Cancer Society. Bill and Melinda were not only a vetted and known resource, he was full on into his career, same with all of the other groups you mentioned. They were not on the upswing, and they did not open a .com with a .org. His story was not that impressive, less so with hindsight, and since HE knew it was built on a lie, had he cared, he would have supported an organization that could live on without his stain should it ever come out... By 'it' I again mean the fact that he played this 'I survived and therefore I never would' card everytime the topic came up.

As to it's success having to have his name, I call malarky. He could have raised tons of money for any established .org with as much ease. Ends justifying the means does not cut it in this case, it is deplorable the influence he has had based on a lie. likewise had he joined the fight for another established team he could have provided more net funds to the cause by reducing the duplicate staffing.

e-RICHIE
08-26-2012, 10:44 AM
<cut> Kind of like those mega-billion Wall Streeters who do major charitable works by night while sharp-elbowing their way to gold-plated shower stalls by day.

That describes Bernie Madoff atmo. Really.

ps

arrange disorder

;););)
;););)
;);):cool:

BillG
08-26-2012, 10:49 AM
Actually I would have thought that the right thing to do would have been to throw his name and support behind an established organization like the American Cancer Society.

Excellent point.

Tony T
08-26-2012, 10:53 AM
Actually I would have thought that the right thing to do would have been to throw his name and support behind an established organization like the American Cancer Society.

LA wanted to help with other programs, the view being that there was enough funding into research already (and others agree).

The LAF gets higher marks (63 out of 70) than the ACS (49 out of 70) according to CharityNavigator.org
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6495

Great man, we need more like him. Too many take their gifts and success for granted without giving back.

Jason E
08-26-2012, 11:08 AM
LA wanted to help with other programs, the view being that there was enough funding into research already (and others agree).

The LAF gets higher marks (63 out of 70) than the ACS (49 out of 70) according to CharityNavigator.org
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6495

Great man, we need more like him. Too many take their gifts and success for granted without giving back.

He could have developed those programs under other organizations, and the ACS, and others, offer patient services, his services are not unique.

His score is where it should be, not exceptional, but expected. Could it not have been done elsewhere? Yes, yes it could.

'Great man, we need more'? Now your just lying to yourself. We've got dozens and they get exposed weekly.

Tony T
08-26-2012, 11:16 AM
He could have developed those programs under other organizations, and the ACS, and others, offer patient services, his services are not unique. His score is where it should be, not exceptional, but expected. Could it not have been done elsewhere? Yes, yes it could.

However, the ACS, that you suggest that he support, has a score well below where it should be (and the ACS has its own issues, I suggest you research an organization before you recommend that someone raise $500 million for it)

Not sure why the LAF's services not being unique are an issue for you.
Anyway, I think that if you were to find out that LA shops at Whole Foods that you would have an issue with Whole Foods :rolleyes:

As the Subject of the Thread is "What I choose to remember", then I choose to remember that Lance Armstrong raised $500 million (and counting) to help people and families that are going through possibly the worst time in their lives.

.

charliedid
08-26-2012, 11:29 AM
Drugs or no drugs, Lance is still in the 1% freak of nature category. If doping never existed Lance would still have been on top and won everything he did.

Drugs didn't make Lance great, but it did give those with a bit less drive, talent and conviction the ability to compete at his level.

Lance simply decided to play that game.

Wining is still everything to guys like that.

StephenCL
08-26-2012, 11:43 AM
Sorry inject a dose of reality. I'll leave you guys to your circle jerk.

The reality is that he and his foundation have done great things for people....one of my best friends included..

Lance personally emailed me, and sent a HUGE care package to a cycling buddy of mine that had just had both testicles removed from testicular cancer.

He didnt have to email me, he didnt have to send the care package...he did.

I've met him a half dozen times, starting with the 1991 nationals.....

Unless you have personal, up front, real experiences with him...I think the dose of reality that you need is that you REALLY dont have any freakin clue what he is like.

Ive been on this board with two differnt use names for well over a decade. I apologize to any that i have offended, but developing and having an opinion based upon media and hersay, is just plain wrong....

Do I think he doped, yup! Do I think he has personally done more for cancer that any one person in history, yup!

Sorry to vent, but I think the hypocracy and witch hunt that USADA has just demonstrated, their blantant disregard for due process and the "get out of jail free" cards they issued to every other rider that DOPED and testified, is every bit as wrong as the EPO that Lance did!

This is my last post on this topic....but I have known Lance for 20 years, and I think that if you have never met him, or dealt with him, you should keep your mouth shut as to what he 'really' is.....

Stephen

firerescuefin
08-26-2012, 11:44 AM
..

SoCalSteve
08-26-2012, 12:06 PM
The reality is that he and his foundation have done great things for people....one of my best friends included..

Lance personally emailed me, and sent a HUGE care package to a cycling buddy of mine that had just had both testicles removed from testicular cancer.

He didnt have to email me, he didnt have to send the care package...he did.

I've met him a half dozen times, starting with the 1991 nationals.....

Unless you have personal, up front, real experiences with him...I think the dose of reality that you need is that you REALLY dont have any freakin clue what he is like.

Ive been on this board with two differnt use names for well over a decade. I apologize to any that i have offended, but developing and having an opinion based upon media and hersay, is just plain wrong....

Do I think he doped, yup! Do I think he has personally done more for cancer that any one person in history, yup!

Sorry to vent, but I think the hypocracy and witch hunt that USADA has just demonstrated, their blantant disregard for due process and the "get out of jail free" cards they issued to every other rider that DOPED and testified, is every bit as wrong as the EPO that Lance did!

This is my last post on this topic....but I have known Lance for 20 years, and I think that if you have never met him, or dealt with him, you should keep your mouth shut as to what he 'really' is.....

Stephen

Thank you!

T.J.
08-26-2012, 12:20 PM
Unless you have personal, up front, real experiences with him...I think the dose of reality that you need is that you REALLY dont have any freakin clue what he is like.



this is what gets me more than anything. everyone has there opinion to which they are entitled but to state as matter of fact that the guy is a dick is wrong. same with doping( in regards to anyone in the peleton). do i believe he doped, yes. do i know for a fact he did ?. no.

93legendti
08-26-2012, 01:15 PM
He could have developed those programs under other organizations, and the ACS, and others, offer patient services, his services are not unique.

His score is where it should be, not exceptional, but expected. Could it not have been done elsewhere? Yes, yes it could.

'Great man, we need more'? Now your just lying to yourself. We've got dozens and they get exposed weekly.

That's a pretty high bar to subject anyone to: he could have worked with existing groups; his score is where it should be and his services aren't unique.

I serve on a board of a charity of which there are several in the world that help the people we do, but each group does it in very different ways. They are all necessary.

beeatnik
08-26-2012, 02:00 PM
I remember not remembering.

During his run, two family members fought cancer. LA was not a presence in our lives. Not a tangible or symbolic presence.

During his run, I was becoming a sports junkie again for the first time since my childhood. As a kid, I read every story in SI on Greg Lemond. If I visualize early 2000s Sports Center, I picture Tiger and the Yankees, not LA. I think that's a good thing.

I remember watching about 5 seconds of the TDF in 2003.

I guess I'm glad that I'm not personally invested in the guy and a little surprised that I missed the whole LA Era.

Edit: Just remembered he dated Sheryl Crow.

67-59
08-26-2012, 02:19 PM
The reality is that he and his foundation have done great things for people....one of my best friends included..

Lance personally emailed me, and sent a HUGE care package to a cycling buddy of mine that had just had both testicles removed from testicular cancer.

He didnt have to email me, he didnt have to send the care package...he did.

I've met him a half dozen times, starting with the 1991 nationals.....

Unless you have personal, up front, real experiences with him...I think the dose of reality that you need is that you REALLY dont have any freakin clue what he is like.

Ive been on this board with two differnt use names for well over a decade. I apologize to any that i have offended, but developing and having an opinion based upon media and hersay, is just plain wrong....

Do I think he doped, yup! Do I think he has personally done more for cancer that any one person in history, yup!

Sorry to vent, but I think the hypocracy and witch hunt that USADA has just demonstrated, their blantant disregard for due process and the "get out of jail free" cards they issued to every other rider that DOPED and testified, is every bit as wrong as the EPO that Lance did!

This is my last post on this topic....but I have known Lance for 20 years, and I think that if you have never met him, or dealt with him, you should keep your mouth shut as to what he 'really' is.....

Stephen

Someone who gets it. Thanks for a great post!

rbtmcardle
08-26-2012, 02:31 PM
Found this link across the hall, I find the idea of admiring and resenting someones achievements at the same time fascinating. It is a great read.

http://chrisyeh.blogspot.com/2012/07/everyone-feels-like-imposter.html

"We have a strange and conflicted relationship when it comes to accomplishment and the accomplished.

On the one hand, we love to build up our heroes. Think of the hero worship we see of athletes, entertainers, and moguls. We want them to transcend human limits because on some level, that kind of achievement lifts us all.

On the other hand, we also love to tear down those heroes. Whether with tabloids ("They're just like us!") or unauthorized biographies, we seem to delight in finding feet of clay.

This ambivalence comes from trying to reconcile two conflicting ideas: One, the great are better than you or me...they have a special something that enables them to do great things. Otherwise, use normal folks have no excuse for our lack of achievement. Two, the great are no better than you or me...we're not ordinary or inferior, just unlucky."

firerescuefin
08-26-2012, 03:18 PM
unless you have personal, up front, real experiences with him...i think the dose of reality that you need is that you really dont have any freakin clue what he is like.

actually having friends i trust that are in the pro tour who have worked for and with him tell me what he is like and it's much like the picture that many that "dont have a freakin clue" have.

I am glad that he helped your friend in a time of need, but to think you know him after hanging out at events a half dozen times and receiving an e-mail and a fruit basket...read that back to yourself and start throwing stones again.


sorry to vent, but i think the hypocracy and witch hunt that usada has just demonstrated, their blantant disregard for due process and the "get out of jail free" cards they issued to every other rider that doped and testified, is every bit as wrong as the epo that lance did!

if what many have claimed to be true is true...this is basically a rico case. Seems to me that the lying, cheating, and distribution of illegal substances came before the "witch hunt"


this is my last post on this topic....but i have known lance for 20 years, and i think that if you have never met him, or dealt with him, you should keep your mouth shut as to what he 'really' is.....

Stephen

it seems that the reality you experienced is different than many others (who are good/honest people)....yet i don't discount yours as your reality and what you experienced. I think what is more likely is there are two sides. Perhaps you should consider that before condemning others with an opinion that doesn't match your own.

slidey
08-26-2012, 03:26 PM
I hope people remember him as a complete prat, I know I will.

Cancer research, my foot...he would've done jack squat if it hadn't been for his doping exploits in France.

Also, there are many more foundations out there doing real science without as much controversy...those foundations are about the survivors, not about the owner of the foundation. Livestrong does good, but it's sole purpose is portraying a clean image of LA, which clearly seems to be working.

malcolm
08-26-2012, 03:40 PM
Wow. We should all be so fortunate as to not have our lives subjected to such scrutiny. It would be interesting to see how we would hold up with the enticement of adulation, boundless wealth and around the clock arse kissing hangers on.

I think we should use this tale and the many others in sport of late to look for other places for our and our children's respect and honor. Maybe the guy down the street that goes to work everyday under who knows what obstacles. At least he'll never have a light in every dark corner of his life and you wont have to be disappointed.

No man is ever as good as his best deed nor as bad as his worst. We are all multifaceted and capable of amazing kindness and good but also mind boggling meanness.

I'll always remember the battles between he and Jan in the high mtns of europe, the devastating ridding of the postal TTT and big blue train on steepest slopes of the alps and pyrenees. These were some of the most exciting tours for me and I started watching back in the Greg Lemond days. Most of the time I was pulling for some Italian rider or Euskatel guy to pull out a victory, but I secretly loved the power of that big blue train destroying the field to be left with just a handful to make the top.

To Lance I say thanks, you may not have been my favorite and by many reports you can be a monumental ass but you provided unmatched spectacle, and you entertained and inspired and I know who won 7 tours

T.J.
08-26-2012, 03:58 PM
Cancer research, my foot...he would've done jack squat if it hadn't been for his doping exploits in France......................Livestrong does good, but it's sole purpose is portraying a clean image of LA, which clearly seems to be working.

serious question. How do you know this? Fact or opinion?

Kirk007
08-26-2012, 04:06 PM
Wow.

A lot of folks here demonstrating about as much class as they accuse Lance of lacking it seems to me. Who really knows someone, besides ourselves? Show me the first saint to dwell among us and I'll show you the one person perhaps entitled to eviscerate another (but I'm guessing that person never would, and certainly not on hearsay). Life is not as simple as some would seem to view it, at least my life is not and I suspect it never will be.

I'm with those who will remember many good memories, lament that we don't live in Oz but not be bothered by any of it more than to play here and there on the internet will food digests before a ride or relaxing afterwards. You'd think the guy was an axe murderer the way some folks get worked up about this.

CPP
08-26-2012, 04:10 PM
What I choose to remember is what the picture says. Nothing more, nothing less. A guy training in the rain and snow! That guy could be any other guy; doped or not doped, rich or poor. I choose to remember the guy in the picture. Hot wives, wins, loses, foundations, what he said, what they said, flaws, position on the bike (yuck), nice guy, bad guy, whatever! I'm not a hater, I'm not a fan. I'm a cyclist! I CHOOSE to remember that guy; the one in the picture. BASTA

1centaur
08-26-2012, 04:37 PM
That describes Bernie Madoff atmo. Really.

I really meant sharp elbowing, not blatant criminality. While some just hang criminality around the neck of any successful business person, I perceive a difference between self-interested pursuit of WAY more than you'll ever need (to the exclusion of being a nice guy) and what Madoff did.

slidey
08-26-2012, 04:56 PM
Opinion.

If LA had the ba**s (oops, he's got only one of those) to actually fight it out with the USADA then we'd be looking at some neat facts, instead of feeling sorry for a disproportionately rich, scheming, conniving, doping, media kingpin.

serious question. How do you know this? Fact or opinion?

Grant McLean
08-26-2012, 05:06 PM
A lot of folks here demonstrating about as much class as they accuse Lance of lacking it seems to me. Who really knows someone, besides ourselves?

I don't like the administering of virtue to people because we like them,
and that's what seems to be going on here.

Supporting those who we like, and vilifying those who we dislike is a
major theme in the story of doping. It's truly sad to see repeated the same old mistakes.

When we vilify those we dislike, the truth is lost, and we stop listening,
and we miss what we should really be hearing. And when we make a hero
out of those we think are good people, they get a pass they don't deserve.

It's time for a more reality based approach to the doping fight. When it
never gets past the sophistication of the good guys wear white hats and the
bad guys wear black hats, we're doomed to relive the mistakes.

-g

Tony T
08-26-2012, 05:20 PM
Perhaps you should consider that before condemning others with an opinion that doesn't match your own.

hmmm..... glass houses, and all that :rolleyes:

cnighbor1
08-26-2012, 05:26 PM
I love to watch the 3 gran tours Italian, france and spain
1. the great scenery
2. the great mountain climbs that I would love to have ridden
3. the kissy kissy scence at the end of each day
4. the great architectural from views not normally seen
5. the nasty weather and its affect on 190 strong riders
6. Bob roll and his use of english and not so great use of english
7. the finishes at the top of the climbs

Charles

Tony T
08-26-2012, 05:27 PM
Opinion.
If LA had the ba**s (oops, he's got only one of those) to actually fight it out with the USADA

Indurain's opinion holds more weight with me:
Indurain [also] calls the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency’s case against Armstrong “strange,” claiming its pursuit of the American was “without scruples.”
The Spanish cyclist, writing in Saturday’s Marca newspaper, says he isn’t surprised Armstrong chose not to contest charges from USADA
http://m.washingtonpost.com/sports/indurain-lance-armstrong-should-keep-7-tour-de-france-titles-calls-usadas-case-strange/2012/08/25/2d91441c-eebe-11e1-b624-99dee49d8d67_story.html

firerescuefin
08-26-2012, 05:34 PM
hmmm..... glass houses, and all that :rolleyes:

Actually TonyT...I know that once the smell of Lance's chamois clears your nasal passages, you will re-read and see that I acknowledged the poster's experience and feelings about Lance as legitimate....just not the same one I shared...and not an experience that should discount everyone else's opinion as false.

Just saw your Indurain Post...Perhaps Riis should back Armstrong as well..That would even place more credibility behind him:help:

I'm punching out of this one. Should have done so long ago.

T.J.
08-26-2012, 07:05 PM
Opinion.

If LA had the ba**s (oops, he's got only one of those) to actually fight it out with the USADA then we'd be looking at some neat facts, instead of feeling sorry for a disproportionately rich, scheming, conniving, doping, media kingpin.

ok so it was just opinion. he really should keep on fighting it so you can see some "neat facts"

PBWrench
08-26-2012, 08:14 PM
Echoing many here, I'll remember:

1. The inspiration that Livestrong -- the organization, not the sports icon -- gave to me- a cancer survivor - and to close friends of mine fighting their own battles.

2. The focus, determination and strength that Lance used to dominate -- it wasn't pretty, it wasn't fuzzy and it certainly wasn't nice. But serious competition of any sort is not for the faint of heart.

3. How Lance gave cycling intense exposure to a sports obsessed American public that has resulted in inumerable benefits, among them-- American jobs created making profits for Trek, Specialized, Cannondale and for hundreds of other companies; better health for untold tens of thousands who discovered that getting on a bike could be fun and healthy when they heard their friends and co-workers dscussing Lance's exploits at the water cooler.

Did Lance dope? -- I am certainly not in a position to know. I do feel that dope wasn't the reason he won. I really don't care whether, in the end USADA/WADA/UCI dedcide that the jerseys get returned to TJMaxx. I won't cry for Lance, but I do know that his exploits have cause many tears of joy and I am thankful for that.

Cheers, PBW

FlashUNC
08-26-2012, 08:21 PM
Doping issues aside, the one thing I'll remember -- strictly as a bike racer -- is how he exacerbated this continuing push towards specialization and focus on a single race rather than the entire calendar.

He essentially planned for a single race a year. Once he came back from cancer. Yes, he won the Dauphine and the Tour de Suisse and the World's in 1993, but I think his emphasis on one race above all others (which many stage racers have followed suit) has come at the detriment of the sport. I can understand the approach in terms of garnering domestic attention -- race the one race most Americans can identify.

Greg LeMond, Bernard Hinault and others at least raced a full calendar.

BumbleBeeDave
08-26-2012, 08:38 PM
. . . No man is ever as good as his best deed nor as bad as his worst. We are all multifaceted and capable of amazing kindness and good but also mind boggling meanness.

. . . try to remember and try to move on. Very well said, Malcolm. In the end, what I think good or bad about LA doesn't really mean anything to anyone but me.

BBD

malcolm
08-26-2012, 08:52 PM
Doping issues aside, the one thing I'll remember -- strictly as a bike racer -- is how he exacerbated this continuing push towards specialization and focus on a single race rather than the entire calendar.

He essentially planned for a single race a year. Once he came back from cancer. Yes, he won the Dauphine and the Tour de Suisse and the World's in 1993, but I think his emphasis on one race above all others (which many stage racers have followed suit) has come at the detriment of the sport. I can understand the approach in terms of garnering domestic attention -- race the one race most Americans can identify.

Greg LeMond, Bernard Hinault and others at least raced a full calendar.

I hear what you are saying, but I think Greg Lemond was racing for the tour before we ever heard of Armstrong. I could be mistaken but I think Greg was the king of race yourself into shape preparing for the tour. Maybe when he was Hinault's second that might have been true, but once on his own the TDF was his only focus

FlashUNC
08-26-2012, 08:59 PM
I hear what you are saying, but I think Greg Lemond was racing for the tour before we ever heard of Armstrong. I could be mistaken but I think Greg was the king of race yourself into shape preparing for the tour. Maybe when he was Hinault's second that might have been true, but once on his own the TDF was his only focus

TdF may have been Greg's main goal for the year, and he may have ridden into shape for it with other races, but you could at least count on seeing him both in the Spring and Fall calendar.

Lance you'd see from June-August, with a couple domestic races, maybe one of the later one-day semi-classics, and the Dauphine or Tour de Suisse.

Really limited focus.

93legendti
08-26-2012, 09:05 PM
I think you missed Lance's excellent performances in Amstel Gold Race - he finished 2nd in 1999 and 2001. His competition was as specialized as he was. Jan barely raced before the TdF each year...Lance also worked for teammates in the other classics.

No one is claiming he was the best ever.

Gummee
08-26-2012, 09:17 PM
One of the ripples of the 'Lance Effect' is the coverage on VS/OLN/whatever that we get now. Any of y'all remember the days of Wild World of Sports and the maybe half hour recap of the week's racing (if we got that much!) I certainly do and DO NOT want to go back there. Don't want Tesch's muzak either for that matter.

Yes, I know you can get Euro coverage on the web thru a few sites, but I seriously doubt there'd be any live US televised racing without LA and his run of victories.

Me? if he doped, then it was an adjunct to training, drive, desire, and tactics. If I were to dope, I'd still be a fred. Fast fred to be sure, but still a fred. Well, maybe a poseur. I do ride around in (my) team kit on CF bikes with Red on em.

I heard stories of LA in training camps in the NC mtns going out for 6+ hour rides in the rain and nasties.

Oh, and don't forget LA was winning triathlons at SIXTEEN. Prodigal talent for sure whether he did or didn't dope (I have no personal proof either way) or whether he got *right up to the line* using every means available. (likely)

My $.02. YMMV and all that

M

rugbysecondrow
08-27-2012, 10:35 AM
He is the first cyclist I ever heard of. Yep, I am a rube, a cycling neophyte, not a fan of cycling, but a fan of American domination. Lance dominated.

weiwentg
08-27-2012, 10:48 AM
I was a Lance fan. When I first came into cycling, I read It's Not About the Bike in the bookstore.

I was not around for the look. But I'll remember him for this: he may or may not have been the most physically talented athlete, but he was at the top of the mental game by far. He prepared for his races with fanaticism. He reconnoitered. He prepared his bikes meticulously. And whatever else he was on, he was on his bike six, seven, eight hours a day.

cmg
08-27-2012, 10:54 AM
UCI hasn't stripped the record. so until that happens................

PQJ
08-27-2012, 11:01 AM
He prepared for his races with fanaticism. He reconnoitered. He prepared his bikes meticulously. And whatever else he was on, he was on his bike six, seven, eight hours a day.

Like most other top ProTour pros, FrAndy excluded.

(Yeah, I know about the Discovery Channel special about how special he is; and I also know, from Phil and Paul, about how dedicated he was and how much he trained and words words words blah blah blah.)

FlashUNC
08-27-2012, 11:07 AM
I think you missed Lance's excellent performances in Amstel Gold Race - he finished 2nd in 1999 and 2001. His competition was as specialized as he was. Jan barely raced before the TdF each year...Lance also worked for teammates in the other classics.

No one is claiming he was the best ever.

Including Amstel Gold in that, certainly.

Maybe my complaint is less Lance specific than a problem of the times, and the 90's we really saw the first generation of this kind of "XXX race or bust" specialist. I'm sure Big George wouldn't have minded some help in Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix during those US Postal vs. Mapei/Domo fights (Matt White doesn't exactly count as help), given all the aid he provided during the Tour all those years.

slidey
08-27-2012, 11:49 AM
Most of your summing up below is supposition, in that you have no way of knowing he trained harder or longer than everyone else. Moreover, the mental strength comes into play now...he hasn't got it in bucketloads as you're suggesting, else which moron would claim he's innocent and then give up and let his name be forever tarnished? Finally, and quite significantly...mental strength is easy to come by when you know you have the best labrats and the best dope!

I was a Lance fan. When I first came into cycling, I read It's Not About the Bike in the bookstore.

I was not around for the look. But I'll remember him for this: he may or may not have been the most physically talented athlete, but he was at the top of the mental game by far. He prepared for his races with fanaticism. He reconnoitered. He prepared his bikes meticulously. And whatever else he was on, he was on his bike six, seven, eight hours a day.

malcolm
08-27-2012, 12:11 PM
Most of your summing up below is supposition, in that you have no way of knowing he trained harder or longer than everyone else. Moreover, the mental strength comes into play now...he hasn't got it in bucketloads as you're suggesting, else which moron would claim he's innocent and then give up and let his name be forever tarnished? Finally, and quite significantly...mental strength is easy to come by when you know you have the best labrats and the best dope!

First off I suspect he doped as did almost all pro cyclist of that era.

What exactly do you think doping does? Many here seem to think you can take someone off the street load them up with epo and anabolics, transfuse them up to a crit of 50% + and viola you have a tour contender. It doesn't work that way, these guys are the top of the heap and all that doping and transfusions just gives them a little better recovery and that extra 1-2 %. You still have to train, you still have to have the genes. It will not turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, it will not compensate for genetics, you either have the vo2max or you don't.

rugbysecondrow
08-27-2012, 12:55 PM
Most of your summing up below is supposition, in that you have no way of knowing he trained harder or longer than everyone else. Moreover, the mental strength comes into play now...he hasn't got it in bucketloads as you're suggesting, else which moron would claim he's innocent and then give up and let his name be forever tarnished? Finally, and quite significantly...mental strength is easy to come by when you know you have the best labrats and the best dope!

What is the title of the thread? Did many of you even read that or did you just jump in to arguing for the sake of arguing?

For those that missed it, the title is "What I choose to remember?" Focus your attention on "I" and "Choose".

In that vein, why are people arguing with one another about what they CHOOSE to remember?


My grandfather was a real prick, his nickname in my household was "the old bastard" because he was not a good man. When he died in 2005, I still mourned, mostly the lost potential of a sad life lived by an alcoholic. Him dying didn't erase the fact he was a prick, but it gave me an opportunity to refame my perspective, "what do I choose to remember?" He was my mothers father and she loved him, he was bright and took me to the zoo as a child. I can't ignore the bad, but I choose to remember the good.


"What I choose to remember" is a great way for people to frame how they will move forward thinking about Lance. Why bother arguing about it?


. . . try to remember and try to move on. Very well said, Malcolm. In the end, what I think good or bad about LA doesn't really mean anything to anyone but me.

BBD

Exactly

PQJ
08-27-2012, 01:10 PM
First off I suspect he doped as did almost all pro cyclist of that era.

What exactly do you think doping does? Many here seem to think you can take someone off the street load them up with epo and anabolics, transfuse them up to a crit of 50% + and viola you have a tour contender. It doesn't work that way, these guys are the top of the heap and all that doping and transfusions just gives them a little better recovery and that extra 1-2 %. You still have to train, you still have to have the genes. It will not turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, it will not compensate for genetics, you either have the vo2max or you don't.

Still, how do any of us know that Lance trained harder? Or prepared better? Because Phil and Paul told us? In my opinion, it is a slap in the face to every other pro who likely trains as hard and prepares as well (though who may not have access to the same resources, including cosying up to the authorities to get some leniency).

tch
08-27-2012, 01:13 PM
What is the title of the thread? Did many of you even read that or did you just jump in to arguing for the sake of arguing?

For those that missed it, the title is "What I choose to remember?" Focus your attention on "I" and "Choose".

....
"What I choose to remember" is a great way for people to frame how they will move forward thinking about Lance. Why bother arguing about it?

+ 1 Million. And then again.

e-RICHIE
08-27-2012, 01:36 PM
What I will remember most is when a clients/colleagues who were part of the cabal that rescued Lance after the Cofidis ordeal and placed him on the Postal Team told me that, after the second TDf victory, they could no longer pay him the money contracted for. From that point forward he received ownership shares and soon became the equal partner of many of his original employers. The group never counted on the project turning into the monster it became. Postal became Discovery which morphed into Astana for a moment, and then Radio Shack. The balance of power in the org shifted. With it came all the baggage that is part of the recent USADA thing, the JV Op-Ed piece, Tyler's forthcoming book, and other sidebars. I believe some men in the financial world wish they never stumbled onto the sport back in the 1990s atmo. This is what I remember, and it is the lens I have observed the saga through going back almost a decade and a half.

CPP
08-27-2012, 02:11 PM
What is the title of the thread? Did many of you even read that or did you just jump in to arguing for the sake of arguing?

For those that missed it, the title is "What I choose to remember?" Focus your attention on "I" and "Choose".

In that vein, why are people arguing with one another about what they CHOOSE to remember?


My grandfather was a real prick, his nickname in my household was "the old bastard" because he was not a good man. When he died in 2005, I still mourned, mostly the lost potential of a sad life lived by an alcoholic. Him dying didn't erase the fact he was a prick, but it gave me an opportunity to refame my perspective, "what do I choose to remember?" He was my mothers father and she loved him, he was bright and took me to the zoo as a child. I can't ignore the bad, but I choose to remember the good.


"What I choose to remember" is a great way for people to frame how they will move forward thinking about Lance. Why bother arguing about it?




Exactly

Bravo!! That's why "I Choose" was capitalized! and..... "It worked for me"
Bravo!

malcolm
08-27-2012, 02:19 PM
What is the title of the thread? Did many of you even read that or did you just jump in to arguing for the sake of arguing?

For those that missed it, the title is "What I choose to remember?" Focus your attention on "I" and "Choose".

In that vein, why are people arguing with one another about what they CHOOSE to remember?


My grandfather was a real prick, his nickname in my household was "the old bastard" because he was not a good man. When he died in 2005, I still mourned, mostly the lost potential of a sad life lived by an alcoholic. Him dying didn't erase the fact he was a prick, but it gave me an opportunity to refame my perspective, "what do I choose to remember?" He was my mothers father and she loved him, he was bright and took me to the zoo as a child. I can't ignore the bad, but I choose to remember the good.


"What I choose to remember" is a great way for people to frame how they will move forward thinking about Lance. Why bother arguing about it?




Exactly

One hundred percent correct allowed myself to get side tracked. I said all I needed to say in my original post, so I'll pull up and out at this point

slidey
08-27-2012, 03:08 PM
You misquoted me and put out this statement. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply in the least to me, since I've already answered the thread with what I choose to remember LA as...in case you missed it, I said "prat". I was responding to a logical flaw in the supposition of another post, which I believe is entirely comprehensible by both parties involved...but I can see how if you jump in and see just this one snippet you might be led astray.

What is the title of the thread? Did many of you even read that or did you just jump in to arguing for the sake of arguing?

For those that missed it, the title is "What I choose to remember?" Focus your attention on "I" and "Choose".

rugbysecondrow
08-27-2012, 03:19 PM
You misquoted me and put out this statement. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply in the least to me, since I've already answered the thread with what I choose to remember LA as...in case you missed it, I said "prat". I was responding to a logical flaw in the supposition of another post, which I believe is entirely comprehensible by both parties involved...but I can see how if you jump in and see just this one snippet you might be led astray.


Thanks for providing another example, now let the thread continue as intended.

slidey
08-27-2012, 04:22 PM
Haha...really man? Do you expect me to believe that a thread isn't supposed to transpire into a healthy conversation on slightly tangential topics between two or more people? I believe, that's how conversations and discussions transpire are borne.

Are you sure you'd have been this picky had the thread not been about Dopestrong?

Thanks for providing another example, now let the thread continue as intended.

Tony T
08-27-2012, 04:27 PM
I also remember this:

rugbysecondrow
08-27-2012, 04:32 PM
Haha...really man? Do you expect me to believe that a thread isn't supposed to transpire into a healthy conversation on slightly tangential topics between two or more people? I believe, that's how conversations and discussions transpire are borne.

Are you sure you'd have been this picky had the thread not been about Dopestrong?

Bud, you are looking for a fight...let it go.

Tony T
08-27-2012, 04:36 PM
He's not looking for a fight, he's trying to close the thread.

slidey
08-27-2012, 04:39 PM
Naa, no fighting intended at all...I was genuinely surprised.

Bud, you are looking for a fight...let it go.

slowgoing
08-28-2012, 04:04 AM
I will remember Betsy and Frankie, and how LA tried to discredit them for speaking the truth.

54ny77
08-28-2012, 04:23 AM
i remember diagramming sentences in grade school, but that ain't got nothin' on whoever did this.

http://www.cyclismas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/full-LA-chart-graphic.jpg

BumbleBeeDave
08-28-2012, 06:56 AM
It's gonna take me a week to figure all that out!

Also, here's THIS from cyclingnews.com . . .

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pound-calls-for-truth-and-reconciliation-for-cycling

Pound tells it like it is, as usual.

BBD

malcolm
08-28-2012, 08:17 AM
It's gonna take me a week to figure all that out!

Also, here's THIS from cyclingnews.com . . .

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pound-calls-for-truth-and-reconciliation-for-cycling

Pound tells it like it is, as usual.

BBD

Hey Dave, I read the Pound and Kimmage piece and lots of the other stuff circulating around and I think I've finally figured out what it is that rubs me the wrong way about all this stuff. It seems to me every one is more focused on taking down Armstrong at all costs than really changing anything within cycling/UCI or the anti doping agencies to prevent these things in the future. Maybe Armstrong is cycling, but I think the sport is bigger and Kimmage is right, unless you fix it, you'll have more of the same.

Tony T
08-28-2012, 08:36 AM
Pound was there at the start LA's TDF win's, and he believes that cyclists dope, yet and WADA did nothing to clean up cycling.
Pound says that he believes that doping continues today, so, when will WADA do their job and stop complaining that dopers adapt quicker than testers?

What I also choose to remember is that the people in charge of assuring that cyclists are clean are incompetent fools that are living in the past while doping in cycling continues.
They should all be fired for not doing their job.

MarleyMon
08-28-2012, 10:54 AM
I remember the Tour of California mountain stage when LA shoved the DopeStrong Devil into a snowbank.
I guess the devil was just a little too close for comfort.

christian
08-28-2012, 11:21 AM
As it comes to shaping my opinion of the man, nothing compares to this for me:

http://s5.as.com/recorte/20081110dasdascic_1/C280/Ies/Simeoni_Armstrong.jpg

Before that, I was a fan. I knew the score, but I was a fan. After that, no more.

ao4392
08-29-2012, 08:51 PM
Lance may have been a part of why I got into cycling but he wasn't what kept me there. People like Jens, Voeckler, Canellara, Boonen etc. are what keeps me interested.