"Off the shelf" 650B Road Frames (Low Trail Content)

[559Rando]

650B is getting a lot of attention in mtb, but I'm looking for a 650B road frame under $1k. And one with low trail, too.

Off the shelf, I know there were some Rawland, although the rSogn is sold out and the Stag and Drakkar II are not here yet.

If I break the budget, there's customs, Boulder, the BDB Pelican and the smaller Ocean Air Ramblers (but I need a big one--which come in 700C).

On the used market there's always Kogswell. And conversions.

Any others that I'm missing?

D

[goonster]

Rivendell Bleriot

Will this fit?

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/bik/3178159515.html

[559Rando]

The Bleroit is long gone, but it (and other Rivs, of all wheel sizes) have higher trail.

I've seen that Raleigh posting a few times. It's too small and I'd like to avoid conversions.

[goonster]

I think I understand what you are after, but don't get too caught up on that trail number. My 650b randonneur does everything you'd want from low trail (high speed stability, low wheel flop, good steering with large front bag), but actually has higher trail.

[559Rando]

My 650b randonneur does everything you'd want from low trail (high speed stability, low wheel flop, good steering with large front bag), but actually has higher trail.

Radical. What is it?
I've ridden front loads with high and low trail (both on plump tires) and the low trail helped me a lot with the wheel flop.

Here's the high trail front loader:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4ysomysnu1r2v178o1_1280.jpg

[DrSpoke]

I've been following this blog for a while and expect you might find some useful information there as she has long been an advocate for the 650b low trail bikes. I know she get's a lot of emails but you may try to contact her in that was as I'm sure she would have lot's of suggestions. In fact she is currently collaborating with a builder in the Boston area on just such a project.

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/


You may want look at some bikes built (or sold) by:

VO: http://velo-orange.com/
Surley: http://surlybikes.com/
Soma: http://www.somafab.com/

I know these all have 650b bikes but not sure if they all qualify as low trail.

As stated previously Rivendell currently has 650b bikes in certain sizes, such as the Sam Hilborne, but, as above, not sure if they qualify as low trail.

[goonster]

Radical. What is it?
A Bilenky.

Can't recall the figure off the top of my head, but I believe trail is in the low 50's.

Edit: I stand corrected. Looked up the spec sheet, and the trail of this bike is right around 40 mm. If I had micromanaged the design, I would have asked for something between 32 and 35 mm, but I told Stephen what I wanted from the bike and did not second-guess the geo. I'm very happy with the results. Based on the photo you posted, with the high-volume tires, large rack and big bag, I would certainly not try to talk you out of something less than 40 mm trail.

http://www.picpile.net/ims/pic_264UD99M/55490.jpg

[559Rando]

I've been following this blog for a whilehttp://lovelybike.blogspot.com/


I'm not particularly impressed with "Veloria's" knowledge, but I stop by there occassionally. I'd rather be on the receiving end of a terse iBob e-mail and learn something than look at the eye candy in Veloria's non-commital puppies and rainbows photo essays.


You may want look at some bikes built (or sold) by:

VO: http://velo-orange.com/


I forgot about VO. They have the Polyvalent, but I read that the tubing is quite stout. That might be a good backup option, though. Good clearances, reasonably price, attractive.

[jamesutiopia]

Unless you find a last gen Kogswell P/R or someone else's custom I don't think you're going to find a low trail steed with lightweight tubing.

Probably not what you want to hear, but I think this is a good state for the market because customers who don't appreciate what they are buying will probably not end up with one (because they're fairly custom, and not in stock at the local shop at any price). It is very easy to build up a lightweight front loading frameset into a bike that has unsafe handling characteristics not found in other more common designs, because the design is intended to be close to the margins from a frame flex and handling perspective. These two aspects can negatively reinforce each other in scary ways in the (depressingly common) worst case scenario.

Regular BQ readers will have noticed that analysis and cures for front end shimmy is a very common subject. A lightweight low-trail frame that works well for one rider might be scary for someone who is a few inches taller, a dozen pounds heavier, or with a different pedaling/climbing style...

That said, I have successful front loading 700C and 650B bikes that work great for me and enjoy riding them. I'd be worried to see similar steeds on the floor at my LBS.

IMO, the TIG Boulder bike is a really good deal and you'll get advice on tubing choices from someone who has actual experience with this type of project (Mike Kone)

[goonster]

IMO, the TIG Boulder bike is a really good deal
+1

It really is the best value out there.

[mossman]

the pelican or the boulder are your best options. a little more than what you want to spend but they're worth the value. excellent frames. 700c or 650b.

otherwise, take an old sports tourer to a local framebuilder for a little modification. that'll keep you under a grand.

If I were to do it again, I'd go with a tig'd Boulder with a little custom tweaking. Talk to Mike Kone.

[GRAVELBIKE]

I may be selling my M/L Rawland rSogn (low trail, 650B wheels, no puppies or rainbows). Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

[soupless]

There's a shop near me that has several RSogns sitting around.
PM me for info.

[bigmatt]

I built up a Velo Orange Polyvalent to give a low trail 650b a try. I searched to find other options, but there are not many that would fit me. If I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to order a Boulder. I might end up with a custom Boulder in the future because I doubt a stock will work at my size: 6'6" 240lbs.

Here is the basics of the build:
60 cm Polyvalent
SRAM Rival group with 48/34 crank in 180mm
Cr720 brakes
Nitto technomic and noodle
Berthoud 50mm fenders
Dt Swiss 190 rear/Shimano 71 generator hub laced to Velocity A23 rims
Grand Bois Hetres
Nitto m12 rack with Cyo light
Seculite rear not installed yet and a Berthoud GB28 front bag not shown

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8306/7808996500_af7c087a4a_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8433/7808999000_569f4e4f22_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8442/7808997622_a9d3583bef_b.jpg

[Wilkinson4]

Another VO, not sure your size

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/bik/3215713707.html

mIKE

[goonster]

I built up a Velo Orange Polyvalent to give a low trail 650b a try.
Very nice.

What pressure do you run the Hetres, and do you have any issues with shimmy?

[559Rando]

I built up a Velo Orange Polyvalent to give a low trail 650b a try. I searched to find other options, but there are not many that would fit me. If I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to order a Boulder. I might end up with a custom Boulder in the future because I doubt a stock will work at my size: 6'6" 240lbs.

Nice. I sorta thought a drop bar iteration would look like this: tall quill and fair amount of seatpost showing. Looks nice. How do you like it?

Another VO, not sure your size

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/bik/3215713707.html

mIKE

Thanks, but that is too small. I'm looking for a 58cm top tube.

[bigmatt]

Very nice.

What pressure do you run the Hetres, and do you have any issues with shimmy?

I'm still playing with tire pressure. I am running 45 front and 50 psi rear right now with tubes and might even go lower if I convert to tubeless. As for the shimmy yes and no. I have a Nashbar sealed cartridge bearing headset in it. I bought a Miche roller bearing headset to remedy that, but the headset is a huge POS and I ended up putting the nashbar back in. A lot of the shimmy has to do road surface and how much I have loaded in the front bag. I moved the spare tubes/tire lever/co2 inflation to a under the seat bag to lighten the load up front and it hasn't shimmied on me. I am sure if I load up the bag a bit more the shimmy will probably come back.

Nice. I sorta thought a drop bar iteration would look like this: tall quill and fair amount of seatpost showing. Looks nice. How do you like it?


I love it. I have put 400 miles on it in the past few weeks commuting to work a couple times a week (40 miles round trip). It is fast and extremely comfortable to ride. My commute has 6 miles each way of dirt road and the rest is mostly rough and broken pavement. The fat Hetres work great to smooth out the bumps.

The downsides to it are the sometimes prominent shimmy, but front loaded low trail and shimmy often go hand in hand. The horizontal dropouts are a pain when removing the rear tire with fenders, but I do have the lower fender on a spring and that helps with tire removal. The other is maybe the weight? The complete bike with full metal fenders, generator wheelset with front and rear lights, and front rack (no bags) is 28lbs.

[559Rando]

The downsides to it are the sometimes prominent shimmy, but front loaded low trail and shimmy often go hand in hand. The horizontal dropouts are a pain when removing the rear tire with fenders, but I do have the lower fender on a spring and that helps with tire removal. The other is maybe the weight? The complete bike with full metal fenders, generator wheelset with front and rear lights, and front rack (no bags) is 28lbs.

I was optimistic that the Polyvalent wouldn't shimmy because of the heavier tubing. Too bad.
The horizontal drop outs are a major drag to me, too. I had a G1 Kogswell PR and they were a nuisance for the same reason: wheel removal with Hetres and fenders required deflating.
The new Rawland Stag sounds better and better, the more Sean discloses about it.

[GRAVELBIKE]

Selling my Rawland rSogn and 650B wheelset here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=115244).

Going back to conventional geometry and 700C wheels.

[fourflys]

Selling my Rawland rSogn and 650B wheelset here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=115244).

Going back to conventional geometry and 700C wheels.

Gotta ask, what did you not like?

[oldpotatoe]

Selling my Rawland rSogn and 650B wheelset here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=115244).

Going back to conventional geometry and 700C wheels.

Ok, OK, I'm a luddite/poorly educated when it comes to 650b road/gravel bicycles. I uderstand the 650b/27.5 MTB trend, but not the 650b road bike trend.

Compared to say a light touring 700c road frame, with similar width tires, fenders, racks, etc...what are the 650b advantages?

The reason I ask is I sell a lot of Gunnar Crosshairs(poor name IMHO) that become all 'rounders in terms of bicycles. Fat tires, skinny tires(lots of choices), racks and fenders or not, even disc brake options...they really work well w/o any compromises. so.......what does 650b bring to the equation?

[Kirk Pacenti]

Ok, OK, I'm a luddite/poorly educated when it comes to 650b road/gravel bicycles. I uderstand the 650b/27.5 MTB trend, but not the 650b road bike trend.

Compared to say a light touring 700c road frame, with similar width tires, fenders, racks, etc...what are the 650b advantages?

Same or similar OD as a 700c tire, but with a larger volume tire (can be run at lower pressure) for greater comfort, more control and some would argue lower rolling resistance.

You should contact Peter Weigle, he's doing a lot with tubeless 650b set ups, including "shaving" tires for better performance!

Cheers,
KP

[oldpotatoe]

Same or similar OD as a 700c tire, but with a larger volume tire (can be run at lower pressure) for greater comfort, more control and some would argue lower rolling resistance.

You should contact Peter Weigle, he's doing a lot with tubeless 650b set ups, including "shaving" tires for better performance!

Cheers,
KP

NOT trying to be argumentative but there are very large volume tires out there that are 700c. The extreme are some low knob, 29er tires. Is the comfort, control, RR differences that great?...because 650b is rolling along in MTBs, but tire choices, frame/fork choices, for 650b road seems teeny by comparison, in spite of 650b road 'idea' being around for a lot longer.

It seems like quite a fringe market, road 650b, IMHO.

Seems a lot like tubular MTB tires, in terms of market.

[559Rando]

Compared to say a light touring 700c road frame, with similar width tires, fenders, racks, etc...what are the 650b advantages?

Jan Heine has written that a 700C as wide as an Hetre is less nimble. I think that makes sense intuitively.

650B is better in terms of TCO, but I think the #1 reason is the Hetre. I'm not aware of a similarly fat, supple 700C (especially one that would feel as "fast"). If such a tire is out there, I'd love to know.

That I'm all ears about Gravelbike's rSogn frameset and wheels! :)

[goonster]

what are the 650b advantages?
Where they really shine is on a bike with large front bag. The supple high-volume tire is a critical piece of the low-trail/weight-on-steering-axis/big-rubber handling trifecta.

Yes, this is a tiny niche, but for those who are in it there is no substitute.

[goonster]

there are very large volume tires out there that are 700c.
High volume, yes; supple casing, no.

[GRAVELBIKE]

Gotta ask, what did you not like?

The ride was just too plush! :p

I'm just not a fan of low-trail geometry. The fact that I don't use a front load/bag probably has a lot to do with it.

[oldpotatoe]

Jan Heine has written that a 700C as wide as an Hetre is less nimble. I think that makes sense intuitively.

650B is better in terms of TCO, but I think the #1 reason is the Hetre. I'm not aware of a similarly fat, supple 700C (especially one that would feel as "fast"). If such a tire is out there, I'd love to know.

That I'm all ears about Gravelbike's rSogn frameset and wheels! :)

Is it the tire or the size of tire?

I DO see in 32mm width, Hetre has 650b and 700c tires....

Is nimbleness on a gravel bike, oftimes loaded, 28-30 pounds drastically different for a 650b than for a 700c wheeled bike? All other things being equal?

Plus are these relatively light(400 grams or so) and tred-less tires reliable and applicable to loose gravel roads?

Seems like a more aggressive tread would be better for dirt roads, IMHO. In spite of the nimbleness give away.

29ers are less nimble than 26ers, no doubt but variety of tires in both sizes makes big differences. Some 26 tire setups feel downright sluggish, some 29ers are very 'bright' feeling...

Built some 650b wheels but honestly don't know of the major 650b advantages, tire manufacturer/tire type notwithstanding.

[fourflys]

Also, is there currently a 700c frame that will fit a tire like a Hetre with fenders? Most 700c bikes I've seen will only go 28, maybe 30mm with fenders... I think another issue is toe overlap on a lot of frames... And something about the overal gyroscopic inertia of the 650b wheel/tire in something like a Hetre is similar to a 700c with a 30ish mm tire... I guess more bang for the buck in comfort, etc... At least that's what I've read, others are much smarter than me on this... I really want to give a 650b optimized bike a try I think... And Mike Kohn at Boulder Bicycles seems to be about the most knowledgable person to design one of these... And they're made by Waterford!

[GRAVELBIKE]

I think Jan H is right about 32mm being the sweet spot for 'fat' 700c tires. My daily rider is shod with 700x32 Randonneur Hypers, and after a lot of experimentation, I'd have to say he's right.

The Black Mountain Cycles road frame will accommodate 700x33 Jack Brown tires w/o fenders (brakes are 57mm sidepulls). I plan on running 700x32 Paselas on mine.

[dauwhe]

For me, it's the tires--first the Trimline, now the Hetre. I haven't seen a 700c tire that's as wide and supple as either of those. I like the Grand Bois and Challenge tires for 700c, but the extra width of the Hetre works really well for me.

[goonster]

I DO see in 32mm width, Hetre has 650b and 700c tires....
Well, the Hetre is 650x42b


Plus are these relatively light(400 grams or so) and tred-less tires reliable and applicable to loose gravel roads?
Yes, and I've had excellent gravel performance from my Hetres on the tandem

[nahtnoj]

The downsides to it are the sometimes prominent shimmy, but front loaded low trail and shimmy often go hand in hand. [/QUOTE]

I'm confused. I thought the whole point of the front load/low trail design was to prevent handling problems?

[559Rando]

Is it the tire or the size of tire?

Some of each, I'd say. Sticking a 40mm tire on a 700C rim will, of course, also create a large outer diameter. The outer diameter of the Hetre is similar to a 23mm on a 700C.

I DO see in 32mm width, Hetre has 650b and 700c tires....

Hetres are a model of tire from Grand Bois. They do have 700C models, as well as some other 650B models.

Plus are these relatively light(400 grams or so) and tred-less tires reliable and applicable to loose gravel roads?

I can't speak for gravel applications, but Hetres soak up uneven pavement and don't get stuck in drains. On pavement, they seem as fast as the skinnies.

[Kirk007]

timely thread for me - I've concluded I need a big volume shod bike for the crappy streets of Seattle. Jan is right, need 42s to keep from falling into the cracks! So I've been looking at the Boulder bike model, which is lovely, without question but I keep on wondering, about the brakes in particular, given Seattle weather. I've never been a fan of cantilevers, and just the winter grime and wear on rims, yuck.

Seattle weather and steep hills make me gravitate towards disc. And so I wonder, is a 29er with a rigid fork, something like the Salsa Fargo or even just a fairly standard 29er with appropriate gearing, bars etc, the modern day equivalent assuming you figure out how to get fenders etc. on it? Looking at geometries I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between in terms of function and the Redline monocog 29er that I bought on a whim rides and handles fine, in fact its a heck of a lot of fun. A 44 front chainring, an 11-34 on the back and ghetto fenders...may not be pretty but for 20-30 miles a day in the winter crud....

I dunno, what do the 650b/rando crowd think?

Grazie!

[Puget Pounder]

timely thread for me - I've concluded I need a big volume shod bike for the crappy streets of Seattle. Jan is right, need 42s to keep from falling into the cracks! So I've been looking at the Boulder bike model, which is lovely, without question but I keep on wondering, about the brakes in particular, given Seattle weather. I've never been a fan of cantilevers, and just the winter grime and wear on rims, yuck.

Seattle weather and steep hills make me gravitate towards disc. And so I wonder, is a 29er with a rigid fork, something like the Salsa Fargo or even just a fairly standard 29er with appropriate gearing, bars etc, the modern day equivalent assuming you figure out how to get fenders etc. on it? Looking at geometries I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between in terms of function and the Redline monocog 29er that I bought on a whim rides and handles fine, in fact its a heck of a lot of fun. A 44 front chainring, an 11-34 on the back and ghetto fenders...may not be pretty but for 20-30 miles a day in the winter crud....

I dunno, what do the 650b/rando crowd think?

Grazie!

Hey Kirk,

I am in Seattle too and just finished up my 650B conversion. I think a road racing geo that takes fat tires is pretty difficult to find. Hence the conversion of my rodriguez. Hit me up if you want to know more about my experiences thus far.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Hy5H9p3o-t0/UERTSWDtJjI/AAAAAAAACI4/qpGrsbRdgI4/s800/IMG391.jpg

[fourflys]

I'M thinking about a set of the Paul's mini motos if I get a Boulder... I use the Paul touring now and they are great... I think discs are great, but not totally necessary...

[559Rando]

I'M thinking about a set of the Paul's mini motos if I get a Boulder... I use the Paul touring now and they are great... I think discs are great, but not totally necessary...

The Mini Motos looks super promising, but I'm not sure they'll clear Hetres and fenders. You might ask Kone about that.

timely thread for me - I've concluded I need a big volume shod bike for the crappy streets of Seattle. Jan is right, need 42s to keep from falling into the cracks! So I've been looking at the Boulder bike model, which is lovely, without question but I keep on wondering, about the brakes in particular, given Seattle weather. I've never been a fan of cantilevers, and just the winter grime and wear on rims, yuck.

Seattle weather and steep hills make me gravitate towards disc. And so I wonder, is a 29er with a rigid fork, something like the Salsa Fargo or even just a fairly standard 29er with appropriate gearing, bars etc, the modern day equivalent assuming you figure out how to get fenders etc. on it? Looking at geometries I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between in terms of function and the Redline monocog 29er that I bought on a whim rides and handles fine, in fact its a heck of a lot of fun. A 44 front chainring, an 11-34 on the back and ghetto fenders...may not be pretty but for 20-30 miles a day in the winter crud....



Kirk, that Monocog might be exactrly what you need! I think just haven't found a high volume 700C that I can love like the Hetre. I had two 650B bikes and had a 650B fire sale earlier this years and cleared it all out since I thought it was too niche. I haven't enjoyed being on the bike as much.

The Fargo's a promising platform, or you might look at the forthcoming Rawland Drakkar II. It's supposed to be a 650B/700C friendly disc design with a low trail fork.

The Boulder is a spectacular bike and if I could afford an American frame instead of the Rawland, I'd be all over that. As some other guys smarter than me said in this thread, it's a great deal.

At that price point, though, you're breaking in custom frameset prices. I'd be calling Franklin Cycles in OH if I were spending $1500ish on a frameset.

Daniel

[bigmatt]

The downsides to it are the sometimes prominent shimmy, but front loaded low trail and shimmy often go hand in hand.

I'm confused. I thought the whole point of the front load/low trail design was to prevent handling problems?[/QUOTE]

The low trail front load shimmy is not a handling problem. It only happens when riding no handed. Under normal riding there are no effects from the shimmy. I have absolutely no trouble decending 30+mph weaving around potholes in the drops or on the hoods. A high trail bike with a front load especially up high like a handlebar bag is going to effect handling a lot and I'm sure will not allow me to decend as I can on my VO.

Hetres work great on dirt roads. My 20 mile one way commute has 6 miles of it dirt roads. I have yet to feel a Hetre lose traction.

Fat supple 700c don't seam to exist. I have bought some Resist nomad 45mm (measure 42mm or so) to try some fat 700c tires. They are a cheap $30 tire so I won't lose much $$ if I don't like them. I have them mounted on my Kelly cross bike, but because of the size had to install a different front derailleur to clear the tire. No test rides yet, but shortly a long dirt/paved ride should happen.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey Kirk,

I am in Seattle too and just finished up my 650B conversion. I think a road racing geo that takes fat tires is pretty difficult to find. Hence the conversion of my rodriguez. Hit me up if you want to know more about my experiences thus far.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Hy5H9p3o-t0/UERTSWDtJjI/AAAAAAAACI4/qpGrsbRdgI4/s800/IMG391.jpg

No fenders on that I take it?

and for 650b in general, I guess a future separate thread as to the 650b advantages.

still don't 'get it' but I don't 'get' a lot of things 'bike' these days, I guess.

[fourflys]

No fenders on that I take it?

and for 650b in general, I guess a future separate thread as to the 650b advantages.

still don't 'get it' but I don't 'get' a lot of things 'bike' these days, I guess.

Peter,
Have you had a chance to meet with and talk to Mike at Boulder Bicycles? He is about the most knowledgable person on 650b that I know of...

[oldpotatoe]

Peter,
Have you had a chance to meet with and talk to Mike at Boulder Bicycles? He is about the most knowledgable person on 650b that I know of...

Nope. I know Mike Cone, he owns Rene Herse, the MO outfit up in north Boulder. He's been selling 650b Rene's for a while, trying to resurrect the French Rando type bicycle.

Just looking for insight here...not going to have any 650b on the floor, unless Richard at Waterford offers one, which I doubt. "Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand. Not sure what it offers over a well made 700c touring/all 'rounder rig.

I'll have a 650b MTB way before a road version. THAT segment is up and coming, has some real advantages particularly for smaller riders who want bigger wheels, IMHO, whereas the road segment seems really, really teeny.

Didn't know that 'Mike' was Mike Cone....

[roydyates]

Nope. I know Mike Cone, he owns Rene Herse, the MO outfit up in north Boulder. He's been selling 650b Rene's for a while, trying to resurrect the French Rando type bicycle.

Just looking for insight here...not going to have any 650b on the floor, unless Richard at Waterford offers one, which I doubt. "Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand. Not sure what it offers over a well made 700c touring/all 'rounder rig.

I'll have a 650b MTB way before a road version. THAT segment is up and coming, has some real advantages particularly for smaller riders who want bigger wheels, IMHO, whereas the road segment seems really, really teeny.
Without any smileycons, I can't tell if this exchange is for laughs. Mike at Boulder Bicycles and Mike Kone of Rene Herse are one in the same guy.

[goonster]

"Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand.
(Non-MTB) 650b is that rare case of the industry reluctantly filling a long-unmet, existing demand, not a trend created by supply-side hype.

To "get it" you need to ride one. Mike might be happy to provide you with a loaner, even if you don't plan to carry them in the shop. The forum will vouch for you! ;)

[oldpotatoe]

(Non-MTB) 650b is that rare case of the industry reluctantly filling a long-unmet, existing demand, not a trend created by supply-side hype.

To "get it" you need to ride one. Mike might be happy to provide you with a loaner, even if you don't plan to carry them in the shop. The forum will vouch for you! ;)

'Existing demand', well.... Yep, I'm a micro shop in the republic of boulder but I have never had anybody come in and ask about 650b, bicycles or tires. Some about MTB 650b but not road.

AND I DO carry touring bikes, fenders, racks(front and rear), etc., much more than anybody else in the republic does. I am not a 'race bike' type shop. More than few customers get touring 'stuff' from me.

I'd say that the 650b 'rando market segment is much smaller than the loaded tourer market is, and that segment is really small(touring bikes).

I sure wouldn't recommend anybody do unsupported touring on a 650b bicycle. Cut a tire in BFE, AnyState or Country, and you will probably be SOL.

[goonster]

I'd say that the 650b 'rando market segment is much smaller than the loaded tourer market is, and that segment is really small(touring bikes).
No argument there, it is a tiny niche. But the demand was there nevertheless, even when it was just some French guys lobbying Hutchinson for a small batch of pneus.

I sure wouldn't recommend anybody do unsupported touring on a 650b bicycle. Cut a tire in BFE, AnyState or Country, and you will probably be SOL.
I'm doing just that next week, in a country where there is probably not a single 650b tire sitting on a retailer's shelf.

(Yes, I'll carry a spare.)

[Puget Pounder]

No fenders on that I take it?

and for 650b in general, I guess a future separate thread as to the 650b advantages.

still don't 'get it' but I don't 'get' a lot of things 'bike' these days, I guess.

It will be getting fenders.

I understand where you are coming from. There is nothing inherently better about a 650B diameter vs a 26" IMO. If bikes with road geo were readily available in 26" with supple tires, then I would have a hard time choosing.

However, I do notice a difference between fatty 700C tires vs 650B. After 32mm the handling feels a bit more sluggish. It might be because I'm a short guy so a smaller wheel size is perfectly scaled for me.

I admit that the rush for people to turn their bikes for 650B is pretty silly. Every week I see threads about converting to 650B because they think it will make their bike faster. For me, the most compelling reason is to get the fat tire experience with quick race geo. However, it's different and fun so if people have time to kill and the $$$ to spend, that is what it's all about!

Sorry for veering this thread off course.

[R2D2]

'Existing demand', well.... Yep, I'm a micro shop in the republic of boulder but I have never had anybody come in and ask about 650b, bicycles or tires. Some about MTB 650b but not road.

AND I DO carry touring bikes, fenders, racks(front and rear), etc., much more than anybody else in the republic does. I am not a 'race bike' type shop. More than few customers get touring 'stuff' from me.

I'd say that the 650b 'rando market segment is much smaller than the loaded tourer market is, and that segment is really small(touring bikes).

I sure wouldn't recommend anybody do unsupported touring on a 650b bicycle. Cut a tire in BFE, AnyState or Country, and you will probably be SOL.

FWIW Some of allure is a throw back to French Constructuer. The roads were rougher, sometimes gravel, and the distances long. So a big cushion of air was more conmfortable. In recent years some , Jan Heine comes ot mind, claim the tires have less rolling restistance since the contatct patch was smaller.

I've never riden one. Not for or against. Was just giving some info. I don't know anyone in my circles that rides 650B. On Brevets you can accept help from other participants. But your right that with a 650B you'd be SOL as most ride 700C.

[559Rando]

Just looking for insight here...not going to have any 650b on the floor, unless Richard at Waterford offers one, which I doubt. "Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand. Not sure what it offers over a well made 700c touring/all 'rounder rig.

I'd love to see more touring and all arounder 700C bikes on the market, but I'd like to see nice fat slicks tires to go with it.

There are a few brands in the 650B road ring, although Grand Bois has a strong handle on it. Pacenti even has a flyweight tire, SOMA has a Pasela-esque tire. True, all those probably are made by Panaracer. Then there's a Hutchinson 32mm, some Schwalbes. Probably some euro-only stuff.

Have you read anything from Jan Heine? Short of trying it yourself to see if you like, Jan does a nice job of relating his experience and attempts to be thorough and scientific, as possible. Here's a blog entry of his about fat 650B tires:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/a-journey-of-discovery-part-3-wide-650b-tires/

Granted, everything has pros and cons, I had a 650B fire sale and sold 2 complete 650B specific bikes, plus my extras and regret it. I'm looking forward to taking delivery of Gravelbike's rSogn within a week or two and riding some nice plush fat tires again.

[bigmatt]

There are a few brands in the 650B road ring, although Grand Bois has a strong handle on it. Pacenti even has a flyweight tire, SOMA has a Pasela-esque tire. True, all ARE made by Panaracer.



Fixed that for ya. There are a few different camps in the 650b market at least to me it seems. The off road 650b market makes sense for people too short for 29ers or claim 29ers handle like a limo. I for one was a early adopter of 29ers when only a handful of tires existed and you need a small boutique frame to ride them. After my first few rides on my first 29er I sold both of my 26" mtn bikes within two weeks, and I have never looked back. For me I will always ride off road on a 29er, but I am also 6'6" so they work perfect for me.

The second 650b market is the former road frame conversions to 650b. You have this nice 700c road bike, but it can't fit bigger tires and is rough to ride on the horrible roads and it hates to see dirt roads. 650b conversions with some long reach brakes can give some new life to an old road bike that didn't see use and make it much more useful.

The third group is this threads topic: the low trail/rando type market which of course is very small. You aren't going to see any big brand jump on board with this type of bike because they are in to make money. They might say it is all about the bike, but it isn't. They are in business to make money. Bikes/models that don't sell get dropped and replaced with something else. A 650b road bike would be a very slow seller and everyone would say why do they make this bike for a weird obscure mostly French tire size? The bikes also are a bit more labor intensive to make with all the extra braze ons that are found on this type of bike.

My 650b uses has fallen into the last two groups. I did want to give it a try so I converted a 72' Peugeot PX10 just for fun to see if I liked the big tires. I did and felt I didn't loose much (or any) speed compared to a 700c bike of the same basic build type (lugged steel and 20lbs +). I still own a couple of vintage/KOF lugged steel road bikes, ride them, and enjoy them a lot. They are fast, but not very comfortable with 23-25mm tires over bad pavement and I am limited to paved roads. When I ride one of those I have to drive somewhere and then get out and ride as I live in the sticks with a few miles of dirt roads before I hit pavement. The Px10 conversion game me some glimpses of the 650b magic so I wanted to build a built for 650b bike and build it right. I wasn't sure if I wanted to put down the money for a Boulder or BD Pelican so I opted for the cheaper Velo Orange choice. Rawland was not an option since the frames never seem to be in stock or he changes his mind on what the dimensions will be (referring to XL sizes only).

I now have over 600 miles on my Polyvalent in the last month and love it. There are a few slight things I don't like as much, but over all I don't think I have been this happy about a bike purchase and build ever. I have a decent size stable of bikes including a vintage low trail 700c Nishiki touring bike set up as a rando bike, cross, full touring bike, vintage road bikes, newer road bikes, and two 29ers. I have always picked the Polyvalent to ride.

[roydyates]

No argument there, it is a tiny niche. But the demand was there nevertheless, even when it was just some French guys lobbying Hutchinson for a small batch of pneus.


I'm doing just that next week, in a country where there is probably not a single 650b tire sitting on a retailer's shelf.

(Yes, I'll carry a spare.)

Should we guess what country. My guess is ... the United States :)

[oldpotatoe]

Should we guess what country. My guess is ... the United States :)

OBTW-Yes I DO have a pair of 650b road tires in stock....just in case.

Sacrebleu!!

[goonster]

Should we guess what country. My guess is ... the United States :)
Earlier this year, I walked into a bike shop and bought a Hetre they had in stock.

This was in Seattle's U district. The guy who rang me up was a little befuddled and asked what kind of bike it was going on . . .

[ptourkin]

Wasn't someone in North Carolina supposedly continuing the Kogswell P/R design as a production bike?

[559Rando]

Wasn't someone in North Carolina supposedly continuing the Kogswell P/R design as a production bike?

That was Longleaf Cycles. I checked in with Anthony a month or so back and he said it wasn't top priority at that point. I think it'll take a while, if it happens at all.

[Michael_S]

I just finished building up a custom 650B all rounder, built by Chauncey Matthews of NM. After just a few rides I'm almost convinced to sell off my 700c road bike and buy one of the new Rawland Stag's to have another. I don't know if it's the wheel size, the bike or the Hetre tires but I'm super impressed. I had it built with a geometry similar to the rSogn, but with a flat top tube and the Pacenti PBP crown. It was designed to range from the Hetre to a 2" knobby for tires and with rack and fender mounts.

I prefer riding from my door and pavement/dirt road mixed terrain rides, and this bike/tire is the perfect combination for that kind of ride.

~mike

[559Rando]

I just finished building up a custom 650B all rounder, built by Chauncey Matthews of NM. After just a few rides I'm almost convinced to sell off my 700c road bike and buy one of the new Rawland Stag's to have another. I don't know if it's the wheel size, the bike or the Hetre tires but I'm super impressed. I had it built with a geometry similar to the rSogn, but with a flat top tube and the Pacenti PBP crown. It was designed to range from the Hetre to a 2" knobby for tires and with rack and fender mounts.

I prefer riding from my door and pavement/dirt road mixed terrain rides, and this bike/tire is the perfect combination for that kind of ride.

~mike

Mike,

Is that the COHO you sold? Or are selling?

How would the Stag be different from your Chauncey Matthew custom? Or it might be too early to say since Sean/Rawland has been (rightfully) only dropping a few details at a time on the Stag. He's blessed/cursed with a vocal group of bike know-it-alls as owners, although he might be wise to bring some of the more prominent voices in as collaborators.

The Stags sounds like a righteous bike. I hope he keeps it in production!

Daniel

[Michael_S]

After riding the Matthews 650B I was so happy with the ride I was thinking I should sell the Coho. I need to take my time and make sure. Funny thing is that the Matthews was designed to be more all-rounder than Rando bike but it really fly's and I seem to climb in much higher gears. I need to ride both for a while before I make a decision.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/7931749418/in/photostream
Mike

[Michael_S]

forgot to answer the Rawland question. The key difference is tubing, my custom is OS ( 28.6mm and 31.8) tubing. Mine is also True Temper OXPlat tubing which has a higher tensile strength than the CroMo the Stag would use. The Geometry and features are pretty close otherwise

The Stag is a lightweight Taiwan built 650B bike that is ends up similar to the Jeff Lyon bike showcased in BQ this month.

Mike

[palincss]

NOT trying to be argumentative but there are very large volume tires out there that are 700c. The extreme are some low knob, 29er tires. Is the comfort, control, RR differences that great?...because 650b is rolling along in MTBs, but tire choices, frame/fork choices, for 650b road seems teeny by comparison, in spite of 650b road 'idea' being around for a lot longer.


There are large volume 700C tires. Most of them are cheap hybrid tires that roll like crap. All of them are significantly larger in outside diameter than a 650B of the same, or even much larger width. That not only makes a difference in handling feel, but also can create problems for midsize and smaller frames. Adding wide fenders makes the problems even worse.

Most important, there are no wide 700C tires that can begin to compare with the best 650B tires like the Grand Bois Hetre.

[palincss]

Is it the tire or the size of tire?

I DO see in 32mm width, Hetre has 650b and 700c tires....



Yes to both. And 32mm is not a wide tire. Oh, it may be in comparison to a 23mm, but as wide tires go it's not.



Seems like a more aggressive tread would be better for dirt roads, IMHO. In spite of the nimbleness give away.


Knobs are fine for loose stuff. Around here (Northern Virginia) first off, you typically can't do a dirt road ride of any length without spending substantial time on pavement to connect the routes, so you get the best ride from a setup that shines on both dirt and pavement. The Hetre definitely does that. Then, the unpaved roads themselves: here, you have an iron hard baked clay base with a thin layer of small size gravel on top. There's not enough loose for knobs to dig in; if you want to dig into those roads you'd better bring a pickaxe. So aggressive tread gives you nothing on the dirt roads and hurts you big time on the chipseal.

[palincss]

Nope. I know Mike Cone, he owns Rene Herse, the MO outfit up in north Boulder. He's been selling 650b Rene's for a while, trying to resurrect the French Rando type bicycle.

Just looking for insight here...not going to have any 650b on the floor, unless Richard at Waterford offers one, which I doubt. "Seems" like a trend to me based on one tire brand. Not sure what it offers over a well made 700c touring/all 'rounder rig.


Well, if you know Mike Kone then just for fun why don't you ask to borrow a 650B Boulder Randonneur and go find out.

[oldpotatoe]

Well, if you know Mike Kone then just for fun why don't you ask to borrow a 650B Boulder Randonneur and go find out.

I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything. Don't think it will mean I'll have one on the floor, market still really small. The bike doesn't really match what my riding is now,, what I do and where I ride and what it will be in the forseeable future. I will probably have a 650b MTB on the floor. Think that has a big future.

I was looking for insight about 650b, real kinda measurable advantages(as 'measurable as anything else in 'bike'), from those who have a lot of experience
on those vs 700c all 'rounder's.

I ride lots of bicycles, tires, tubeless, not, big tires, small tires, tourers, all arounders, randos(even build a couple-not 650b tho), cross rigs, MTBs, 29ers, 26ers, full squish, hardtail, single speed, fixies.... race bikes, etc, etc. None are really all that different w/i the 'class'.

I think Mike's 650b foray is related to his desire to resurrect the Rene Herse, French rando, 650b 'mystique'. I know he has a great interest in and lots of knowledge of, French bicycle history.

[sc53]

I discovered Mike's shop while searching for some kind of rear bag support for my small frame bikes. He sells some really cool "retro" type bike parts. I bought a Nitto bag support that, unlike the Carradice Bagman I have, does not require saddle rail space to bolt it on to (it just slips around your seat stays so can be swapped between bikes really easily, no bolts), and is much smaller so it fits underneath my smallish saddlebag (the Carradice Barley) much better than the enormous Bagman (which is sized for a really large saddlebag; I need to sell it).
I also bought some Michelin big-tire tubes (hard to find at other online vendors) for 700 x 32-37 tires, a Nitto seatpost, and some Berthoud bar cap plugs. Great shop!

[559Rando]

I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything. Don't think it will mean I'll have one on the floor, market still really small. The bike doesn't really match what my riding is now,, what I do and where I ride and what it will be in the forseeable future. I will probably have a 650b MTB on the floor. Think that has a big future.

- I think a "little ride" will tell you a lot, actually. I don't mean that to sound snippy. I just mean to say, "try it, you'll like it."

- I don't think there is a 650B road bike you could even put on the floor, except maybe the VO Polyvalent, Soma San Marcos and smallest Rawland Nordavinden. I think that's it. Everything else is custom/semi custom/only available direct. For example, I think Kone is the only seller of the Boulder. It's his brand. Kogswell is gone, Rawland is out of 650B frames at the moment, (except the smallest Nordavinden), etc. It's niche, though I'd love to see them on the floor of shops.

- As for the 650B road bike not fitting your needs, I think you'll be surprised in how they excell at so many things. Again, I believe a little ride should be very telling.

- I think a good number of mtb technology bees polinate the road technology flowers. I don't have a crystal ball, but I won't be surprised when there's more 650B road options

[palincss]

I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything. Don't think it will mean I'll have one on the floor, market still really small. The bike doesn't really match what my riding is now,, what I do and where I ride and what it will be in the forseeable future. I will probably have a 650b MTB on the floor. Think that has a big future.

I was looking for insight about 650b, real kinda measurable advantages(as 'measurable as anything else in 'bike'), from those who have a lot of experience on those vs 700c all 'rounder's.


And I'm suggesting if you try one you will experience those advantages for yourself, without having to rely on me conveying my experiences to you. As for measurable advantages,

- a 42mm tire will fit in a 54 cm frame with fenders, now go try that with your 700C
- 42mm @ 50 psi turns chipseal into a smooth road

I'm not sure how you go about "measuring" that to your satisfaction. But if you're interested, go try one and I think you'll understand. If you want to remain closed-minded, on the other hand, don't bother.


I think Mike's 650b foray is related to his desire to resurrect the Rene Herse, French rando, 650b 'mystique'. I know he has a great interest in and lots of knowledge of, French bicycle history.

Rene Herse Bicycles is definitely the former. Boulder, not so much. Boulder isn't replicating mystique, it's a modern functional solution to a riding situation.

[oldpotatoe]

And I'm suggesting if you try one you will experience those advantages for yourself, without having to rely on me conveying my experiences to you. As for measurable advantages,

- a 42mm tire will fit in a 54 cm frame with fenders, now go try that with your 700C
- 42mm @ 50 psi turns chipseal into a smooth road

I'm not sure how you go about "measuring" that to your satisfaction. But if you're interested, go try one and I think you'll understand. If you want to remain closed-minded, on the other hand, don't bother.



Rene Herse Bicycles is definitely the former. Boulder, not so much. Boulder isn't replicating mystique, it's a modern functional solution to a riding situation.

Gee, that was pleasent, I was asking for objective info, guess that, and any other 'questions' makes me closed minded. Gonna tap outta this one, a 'wee' bit to 'evangelical' for me.

Gonna pass on the test ride also, going to stay close minded, and I use 25c tires, even on chip seal. At 95 psi, pretty smooth on my Moots.

[559Rando]

Tater, given your proximity to Kone, please take a test ride! You may never buy a 650B road frame but you'll see firsthand what the hype is about.

[oldpotatoe]

Tater, given your proximity to Kone, please take a test ride! You may never buy a 650B road frame but you'll see firsthand what the hype is about.

Pass

[palincss]

Gee, that was pleasent, I was asking for objective info, guess that, and any other 'questions' makes me closed minded. Gonna tap outta this one, a 'wee' bit to 'evangelical' for me.


No, your obvious unwillingness to even try a test ride makes you closed minded.

[oldpotatoe]

No, your obvious unwillingness to even try a test ride makes you closed minded.

"I may but I doubt a little ride on one of these will really tell me anything."

May not-I'm out.

[svelocity]

Taking a cue from another board member. A haiku on 650b :)

a wheel and tire size
nothing magical to it
works for some not all

[fourflys]

Let's drop it down a notch or two... oldPotatoe can choose or not to ride a 650b... In the end who cares if Peter rides one? Peter has more miles on different machines than most, so if he chooses not to try something different so be it... that's the beauty of so many choices...

[GRAVELBIKE]

I tried the 650B/low-trail thing, and it was OK. Not great, but not bad. In the end, I didn't like the bike enough to want to keep it. I found that I was more at ease with different geometry, and more robust tubing.

As far as 650B wheels, I can take them or leave them. Since I ride a 56-57cm frame, (fat tire) clearance is less of an issue for me than someone who rides a smaller frame. I did a lot of switching back and forth between 650Bx38 and 700Cx32/35 bikes, and found that I preferred the latter.