Is a perfect pedal stroke the holy grail?

[William]

An interesting article to ponder......

Perfect Pedal Strokes
Worth Cultivating or a Waste of Effort?

By Fred Matheny

I'll never forget the rider approaching me near Boulder, Colorado, some years ago. Roadies are common in that cycling-mad town but this guy stood out, even at a distance, for the smoothness and fluidity of his pedaling motion. He sat rock steady on the saddle and his legs flowed underneath him. I wasn't surprised when he came closer and I recognized Ron Kiefel, long-time pro and 7-time Tour de France rider.

Because we often associate smooth pedaling with accomplished cyclists, many roadies develop a fetish for perfect circles. They work for hours on their pedal stroke, trying to pull the foot up on the backstroke so it doesn't weigh on the descending foot's powerful push downward.

In 1985 I attended a cycling camp put on by Greg LeMond. There for the first time I heard his advice about a key to pedaling smoothly: Imagine you're scraping mud off your shoe as you pull through at the bottom of the stroke. I shared that advice in aBicycling magazine article and have heard it repeated ever since, sometimes attributed to LeMond and sometimes not.

But now there's compelling evidence that a smooth pedal stroke may not be as important as we thought. Moreover, research by Jeff Broker, Ph.D., Jim Martin, Ph.D. and others casts doubt on how much time we need to spend on that elusive search for silky strokes. They presented at the SICI Symposium and Expo in Denver, Colorado.

Biomechanists like Broker use force-measuring pedals to quantify the direction and force exerted by the foot through every portion of the 360-degree pedal circle. Other equipment measures which muscles fire as we pedal. The result is a complete picture of what happens when we power the bike.

Here's what's been learned from all that research:

As power level increases, cyclists don't pedal in circles.

Martin cited 1991 research by Ed Coyle, et al, involving regional level competitors and elite racers -- pros and U.S. national team members. Coyle found that elite cyclists pushed down harder and pulled up less than the less-accomplished riders.

Surprisingly, the elite riders were more efficient even though they were pedaling less smoothly....

http://www.roadbikerider.com/cycling-science/perfect-pedal-strokes



.






William

[dekindy]

I am below average and I know that when I am tired and starting to slow down concentrating on pedaling more smoothly makes my legs feel better and increases speed. That is all I know.

[FlashUNC]

There have been successful pros who look like they're fighting the bike every inch of the way, and those who make it look effortless.

I'm beginning to think that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much.

[Jaq]

I found this bit a tad ironic:

"Interestingly, said Broker, among all the riders tested over the years at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, mountain bikers had the smoothest pedal stroke, even smoother than pursuit specialists on the track. Off-road legend John Tomac was the smoothest of all."

[R2D2]

Whether it's more efficient or not, souplesse sure looks better.

[Vientomas]

I found this bit a tad ironic:

"Interestingly, said Broker, among all the riders tested over the years at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, mountain bikers had the smoothest pedal stroke, even smoother than pursuit specialists on the track. Off-road legend John Tomac was the smoothest of all."

Ironic?

From Wikipedia:

From 1988 to 1991, Tomac dovetailed professional programs in both mountain biking and road racing. He was the 1988 USCF National Criterium Champion and was part of the winning team in the USCF National Team Time Trial Championship in 1989. Tomac spent much of 1990 competing in European events with the Motorola team. Although he failed to win any major road titles in a season in which he entered more than 100 road and mountain events, his schedule included the Ronde van Vlaanderen, the Giro d'Italia and the Paris–Roubaix. Tomac ended his participation in pro-level road racing at the close of the 1991 season, choosing instead to focus on his mountain biking career.

[fiamme red]

If races were decided on style points, then a perfect pedal stroke would be the holy grail. But cycling (except artistic cycling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_cycling)) isn't like gymnastics or figure skating.

[Jaq]

Ironic?

From Wikipedia:

From 1988 to 1991, Tomac dovetailed professional programs in both mountain biking and road racing. He was the 1988 USCF National Criterium Champion and was part of the winning team in the USCF National Team Time Trial Championship in 1989. Tomac spent much of 1990 competing in European events with the Motorola team. Although he failed to win any major road titles in a season in which he entered more than 100 road and mountain events, his schedule included the Ronde van Vlaanderen, the Giro d'Italia and the Paris–Roubaix. Tomac ended his participation in pro-level road racing at the close of the 1991 season, choosing instead to focus on his mountain biking career.

Even more so.

[Ti Designs]

The answer is 42.

[FlashUNC]

The answer is 42.

+1.

Then -1 to get us back to 42.

[G-Reg]

I think Grant Petersen has been saying the same thing for many years.

you get power by pushing not pulling.

[Ken Robb]

It makes one wonder how important it is to be clipped in doesn't it?

[David Kirk]

Here is what I think - take this with a grain of salt.......or two.

There is little mechanical advantage to allow any real force to be put toward pulling up on the backside pedal. We just aren't very powerful with that movement. But - there is a real advantage toward at least lifting the weight of the leg/foot off the rear pedal so that the front pedal isn't having to lift the back leg up. If the back leg is lazy and has any dead weight on it then the front leg needs to overcome that weight and burn energy to get the back leg up and over the top. So not so much pulling up on the pedal but at least not weighting it in any way.

This lifting is what I think of as pedaling circles - not that one is applying even force around the 360° circle.

The smoothest guys are the ones who can seamlessly lift the back foot over the top and then apply power on frontside without any hitches in the motion. This is why so many BMX'ers have done so well in track events and in sprinting on the road. Tomac was just one of the first and was followed by Abdujaberoff (phonetic spelling!!), Cavendish, Sagan.......etc. All these guys and so many more learned to pedal high rpms while at the same time applying big power to the pedal on the dirt, on a BMX bike. And most learned this skill on platform pedals which will not allow one to pull up on the backside pedal but only unweight it to allow the front leg to put maximum power to the pedal with any little parasitic loss as possible.

Back to braze-ons for me.

Dave

[fiamme red]

This is why so many BMX'ers have done so well in track events and in sprinting on the road. Tomac was just one of the first and was followed by Abdujaberoff (phonetic spelling!!), Cavendish, Sagan.......etc. All these guys and so many more learned to pedal high rpms while at the same time applying big power to the pedal on the dirt, on a BMX bike.I don't think that Abdoujaparov raced BMX... at least I've never heard that.

Speaking of Abdoujaparov, Marcel Wüst once said this about him:

"No one wanted to be close to him in a sprint. The problem with his sprinting style was that, even when he was going in a straight line, the bike would be moving around so much underneath him that he'd take up a metre and a half of road. He was the most dangerous bike rider I've ever seen."

(Source: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/features.php?id=features/2008//tour08_seeking_abdoujaparov_2)

[David Kirk]

I suppose I could have it wrong but I'm pretty sure I read a story about him with an interview that said his first competitive cycling was on the BMX track.

Dave

I don't think that Abdoujaparov raced BMX... at least I've never heard that.

Speaking of Abdoujaparov, Marcel Wüst once said this about him:

"No one wanted to be close to him in a sprint. The problem with his sprinting style was that, even when he was going in a straight line, the bike would be moving around so much underneath him that he'd take up a metre and a half of road. He was the most dangerous bike rider I've ever seen."

(Source: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/features.php?id=features/2008//tour08_seeking_abdoujaparov_2)

[1centaur]

I think that article hints at the answer but does not quite get there.

IF one could apply force in all directions without consequences then that would be more powerful than not applying forces in all directions, by definition. Humans not being machines, there are consequences: muscle fatigue, muscle imbalance, position, muscle firing sequence/speed, aerobic fatigue. And so humans compromise within their physiological and mental limitations. Pros pedal in a way that allows them to win, given their physiology and the competitive reality. They might be able to mash efficiently away and win while ordinary roadies get too much fatigue from doing so. But watch a Tour de France and from the worst to the best of them they have fairly fluid strokes, mostly I think because they are pedaling for hours on successive days, and they train that way too. They need to balance their load over time. Mere mortals do too, just over shorter times and lower loads. And so the definition of efficiency is the question - is it defined over an hour or a week or a season? The longer you pedal the more most of you will find some version of pedaling circles more efficient than pedaling squares.

Personally, my mind can direct my legs for a maximum of two moments per circle at 85 rpm, and I am most successful with "knee up, push toe down diagonally." The smoother I pedal the faster I go, and if I get tired quickly it's because I don't work that smoothness as much as I should.

[lovethesport]

There have been successful pros who look like they're fighting the bike every inch of the way, and those who make it look effortless.

I'm beginning to think that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much.

Voeckler is in the camp of fighting the bike with his stroke as well as his
facial contortions... could be the reason why he's so popular.At least he adds
drama to every race :)

[FlashUNC]

Voeckler is in the camp of fighting the bike with his stroke as well as his
facial contortions... could be the reason why he's so popular.At least he adds
drama to every race :)

Voeckler also tries to win an Oscar every time out. But that's another thread unto itself and ground we've already plowed around these parts.

[cnighbor1]

Use of bio pace Shimano (latest version which are close to round) rings makes my pedal stroke even smoother. I use them on my bike. a 53T Bio Pace ring When I get into that ring my stroke smooths out even more

There are pedal smashers Smash down on pedals has it gets over top and down to were smashing down works Than smash with other foot Not smooth strokers
Than there are riders who push down and pull thru (like me) Those are smoother.
However in 80's 90+ rpm was the way to race Now mid 80's RPM is the way to ride. Lance and others like him excluded. At 80's RPM your more of a smasher and less smooth But many win big races at this RPM
Yes of course RPM's drop when your in last climbing gear left

[cnighbor1]

Is a perfect pedal stroke the holy grail? The holy grail is too get from Point 'A' to point 'B' and be in one piece at the end of the ride
The rest doesnt matter

[harryblack]

Agree with this, excepting extremes of bad positioning, technique we see in recreational riders and is rare-to-extremly rare in serious amateur and pro racing... There are so many other variables at play as well... But focusing on "soup less" provides an easy false grail for certain coaches and armchair physiologists so the myths are here to stay.

That this supports my belief that fixed gear training for roadies is an utter sham (other than the obvious fact training, period = good) is only a happy coincidence.

[Patiently waiting for next gen road racers who crossover from "fixie" world to results if it's so "good" for 'em and their "soup less."]

There have been successful pros who look like they're fighting the bike every inch of the way, and those who make it look effortless.

I'm beginning to think that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much.

[beeatnik]

Overheard at the Brentwood Grand Prix, one Cat 1 to another:

"I knew the guy was a mountain biker. He had that goofy legs all over the place stroke. He was strong as F tho."

So many experts in the world...

[Ti Designs]

But now there's compelling evidence that a smooth pedal stroke may not be as important as we thought. Moreover, research by Jeff Broker, Ph.D., Jim Martin, Ph.D. and others casts doubt on how much time we need to spend on that elusive search for silky strokes. They presented at the SICI Symposium and Expo in Denver, Colorado.

I have one question for Jeff, Jim or any other presenters at that symposium - it's the same question I've been asking for years. How many good cyclists have they produced? I'm talking about starting with your average rider and working with them to become a really good cyclist? If their combined knowledge is to be of any use to the average rider, you would think they would have put it to the test. So far the only answer I've gotten has been "that's not what we do".

The answer isn't in looking at individuals. There's a rower who rides with my team sometimes, he spends months off the bike, then shows up and rips our legs off. You can study his pedal stroke all you want, maybe someone at SICI can give a talk on picking your parents well...

And as long as I'm picking on the so called experts, there's only one way to pedal? Really? Generating torque and generating leg speed are the same? When and where do these experts ride - I've got to see this!



There is little mechanical advantage to allow any real force to be put toward pulling up on the backside pedal. We just aren't very powerful with that movement. But - there is a real advantage toward at least lifting the weight of the leg/foot off the rear pedal so that the front pedal isn't having to lift the back leg up.

There are muscle groups that deliver force, there are muscle groups that direct force. Here's a very simple example: there's a door in front of you which is closed and latched. You could put 300 pounds of force against the door and break the latch plate, or you could turn the know and put 5 pounds of force against it. OK, now look at a rider on a bike with the pedal at 11:00. The rider can generate power by firing the quads and extending the lower leg from the knee, but there's a problem. The arc around the knee and the arc around the bottom bracket which the pedal is attached to are not the same. If no other muscle is used the rider is trying to push into the pedal circle, not around it. That's a battle you're not going to win. The hip flexor is responsible for directing the force around the circle.

[hainy]

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/05/pedalling-technique-what-is-best/

[Fixed]

Imperfection is perfection
Cheers :)

[oldpotatoe]

There have been successful pros who look like they're fighting the bike every inch of the way, and those who make it look effortless.

I'm beginning to think that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much.

Agree and pedal stroke, once on a properly fitted bicycle, is more physiological than psychological..meaning you pedal like ya pedal and 'thinking' about it, particularly when you are tired, doesn't really work, IMHO. Assuming the bike, pedals, cleats, etc, are fitted correctly.

I think that it fitting or riding, sometimes it's a bit overthought. The idea for the vast majority of enthusiasts(not people who get paid to ride well), the idea is to be able to do the ride, and not get hurt or be in genuine pain when it's over. I thought riding was supposed to be enjoyable, not a chore or a job. But I ride cuz I like to, and I'm not going to sully it up by making it too analytical..get on bike, go ride..don't even care where I go, with a watch, cuz I gotta go to work.

[Bob Ross]

Humans not being machines, there are consequences: muscle fatigue, muscle imbalance, position, muscle firing sequence/speed, aerobic fatigue.

That muscle imbalance thing is key; specifically, the muscles in our legs that push down are considerably larger/stronger than the ones that pull up.

So that imbalance isn't something we should be striving to overcome, it's something we should be striving to take advantage of.

First time I went to Paul Levine he put me on his swanky CompuTrainer gizmo that measures power at the pedals for every 12° of rotation, discretely for left & right cranks. After watching me pedal for a few minutes he said "You have a very smooth pedal stroke; did you have to practice that?"

I admitted that it was something that I'd worked on. He then said "Well, it's too smooth"

...and went on to say that by having essentially even power for the entire 360° stroke, I wasn't taking advantage of the available strength of the larger muscles (glutes & quads) that push down on the pedals. If we use all our leg muscles to their maximum (sustainable) capability, the downstroke will naturally be more powerful than the upstroke...and if we want to go fast what we want to do is maximize the output our muscles are capable of, not aspire to some perfect uniform circle.

Five more minutes on Paul's CompuTrainer and I had objective proof that a stronger downstroke (and a less uniform, less perfectly-smooth circular pedal stroke) yielded much higher overall power numbers.

[dekindy]

That muscle imbalance thing is key; specifically, the muscles in our legs that push down are considerably larger/stronger than the ones that pull up.

So that imbalance isn't something we should be striving to overcome, it's something we should be striving to take advantage of.

First time I went to Paul Levine he put me on his swanky CompuTrainer gizmo that measures power at the pedals for every 12° of rotation, discretely for left & right cranks. After watching me pedal for a few minutes he said "You have a very smooth pedal stroke; did you have to practice that?"

I admitted that it was something that I'd worked on. He then said "Well, it's too smooth"

...and went on to say that by having essentially even power for the entire 360° stroke, I wasn't taking advantage of the available strength of the larger muscles (glutes & quads) that push down on the pedals. If we use all our leg muscles to their maximum (sustainable) capability, the downstroke will naturally be more powerful than the upstroke...and if we want to go fast what we want to do is maximize the output our muscles are capable of, not aspire to some perfect uniform circle.

Five more minutes on Paul's CompuTrainer and I had objective proof that a stronger downstroke (and a less uniform, less perfectly-smooth circular pedal stroke) yielded much higher overall power numbers.

I find that unless I am pedaling smoothly I slow down considerably on longer distances because my quads are so tired. When I began concentrating on pedaling circles my fatigue lessens and speed picks back up. Is smooth better for endurance and using strongest muscles for powerful, shorter distances and sprints? I would think that someone doing RAAM would want smooth but is just switching positions and occasional standing enough to rest most trained athletes?

[cfox]

why not be strong and smooth? cycling is a bunch of stuff happening at the same time. the idea is to get better at more than one.

[David Kirk]

why not be strong and smooth? cycling is a bunch of stuff happening at the same time. the idea is to get better at more than one.


Yeah.

dave

[redir]

My take on it is that even if the upstroke is minimal it's helpful. If all you do is mash then you are not taking advantage of the use of different muscles to add a few more watt's. So you are not only tiring out your mash muscles but you are not gettin some extra wattage.

'Corse when TSHTF all bets are off and you mash to get big wattage. But when you are sitting in the pelaton you may as well use all the muscle groups you can.

[TomNY]

Wow there are a lot of smart words on spinning vs pushing, and now I am wading into the swamp here. I have been riding rollers w head wind for winter training for many seasons. For me it develops a high rpm smooth pedal action. However at lower RPM 70ish, or so my lack of power is apparent. Recently I rode w/ my 28 yr old daughter, 24 yr old nephew, and his a"Honey Badger" of a dad in Colorado. The 3 of them appeared to pedal about 75 RPM big gears compared to me, and could accelerate away on the little rollers. At dinner, The Badger said I was giving up my thrust for foot speed or something along those lines. I am from 600 ft above sea level, we started at 8600 ft. Next day I did a climb up Vail Pass. I then channeled two ideas. A Forum member posted some advice about center of gravity over the pedals, letting your weight fall through the pedal stroke as you extend leg. I found a pace that let me climb for the next 2 hours with a pedal stroke that was part thrust but liquid. My concentration on spinning was focused on "process", not grounded on results. This bottom of the pedal stroke thrust action clearly worked better for me. IMHO pedal action depends on many variables, strength vs demand, where the pedal is force when force is applied, incline or lack of. This is a great forum, I really enjoy the input of so many talented and experienced cyclists.

[Elefantino]

I believe Wiggo may have found the Holy Grail with his elliptical rings this year.

As for me, the search continues. Come along, Patsy.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/file.jpg

[cnighbor1]

When watching pro racing look at their pedal stokes I do at times. they showed In CO race one racer who was a toe down nearly entire pedal stroke
I try to see if any can keep thier heel down and close to level all the way thru like I try and do.
Than position on saddle effect stroke also If a toe down rider your saddle is a bit higher verus a flater foot all the way around
be fun to measure power output for same rider and different strokes
any videos of eddie on you tube
Yes here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sziZ6PejrfM
and he is a heels nearly down all the way around A BIG YES for me
Also look at lance and others videos on u tube
Charles Nighbor

[Bob Ross]

why not be strong and smooth? cycling is a bunch of stuff happening at the same time. the idea is to get better at more than one.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the Strong Downstroke/Less-Strong Upstroke shouldn't be smooth, just that by definition it wouldn't be uniform.

[Nelson99]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the Strong Downstroke/Less-Strong Upstroke shouldn't be smooth, just that by definition it wouldn't be uniform.

I think this and Dave Kirk's comments really summarize what, to me, is an unsurprising (possibly obvious) result.

Think about the limits of force at each part of the stroke. Simplifying to up and down, on the down stroke you can apply your body weight, plus whatever force you can pull up on the bars with, no more (to a first approximation). On the upstroke, you can apply only what you can get from pulling your butt against the saddle (again to approximate). A "perfectly balanced" stroke would limit your downstroke force to the much, much, smaller limit of your upstroke force. As a rider gets stronger and stronger, the difference between the force exerted on the downstroke and the upstroke will unavoidably get wider and wider. So, of course the strongest riders will have "less balanced" circles.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that the circles cannot remain smooth. The riders ability to exert all that mega force on the downstroke will be optimized by entering that part of the stroke as early and as smoothly as possible, and will, of course, be augmented by any power that can be garnered on the upstroke (backstroke, over the top stroke, etc...). Avoiding the need to lift your lazy leg up the backside of the circle is the bare minimum.

So it seems to me, that the stronger the rider, the less symmetric the forces must become. But that should not preclude smooth transitions throughout the circle.

Just a thought.

[Ti Designs]

So it seems to me, that the stronger the rider, the less symmetric the forces must become. But that should not preclude smooth transitions throughout the circle.

Sounds easy. Now go find someone and teach them how to do this and report back with your results...

OK, let's make it easier, pick one part of the pedal stroke and teach someone to be able to increase or decrease the force just within that part. What you're going to find is that people really don't know what their legs are doing. You think "push harder", your body really pushes longer. If you're trying to push harder in the downstroke and what you're really doing is pushing down at the bottom, what your brain is telling you and what you're really doing are two different things. If you're thinking "that's not me", you're probably wrong. Getting the body to control force within a range is one of the hardest things to do. It's a complex formula of advancing the timing so muscle recruitment hits it's peak at the right time.

If you really want to get into this, there's a book called "Motor Learning" by Richard Magill. It is the least known, best read for any athlete or coach I can think of.

[Nelson99]

Sounds easy. Now go find someone and teach them how to do this and report back with your results...

OK, let's make it easier, pick one part of the pedal stroke and teach someone to be able to increase or decrease the force just within that part. What you're going to find is that people really don't know what their legs are doing. You think "push harder", your body really pushes longer. If you're trying to push harder in the downstroke and what you're really doing is pushing down at the bottom, what your brain is telling you and what you're really doing are two different things. If you're thinking "that's not me", you're probably wrong. Getting the body to control force within a range is one of the hardest things to do. It's a complex formula of advancing the timing so muscle recruitment hits it's peak at the right time.

If you really want to get into this, there's a book called "Motor Learning" by Richard Magill. It is the least known, best read for any athlete or coach I can think of.

I have no idea how to teach it. I teach genetics.

That book sounds good. Thanks for the pointer.

[cnighbor1]

Has I rode yesterday trying to figure how what I really do in pedaling I thought if riding with only pedals without toe straps or click in pedals how does one pedal. My thoughts were you keep your foot relatively flat or your foot will fly off the pedal. than when your locked in has most of us are you can ride say toes point down, etc. Therefore has we first started riding we were riding with foot nearly level all away around. which what i try and do.
Charles

[Grant McLean]

Better to just ride more.

-g

[Ken Robb]

Has I rode yesterday trying to figure how what I really do in pedaling I thought if riding with only pedals without toe straps or click in pedals how does one pedal. My thoughts were you keep your foot relatively flat or your foot will fly off the pedal. than when your locked in has most of us are you can ride say toes point down, etc. Therefore has we first started riding we were riding with foot nearly level all away around. which what i try and do.
Charles

If you ride flat pedals with teeth like MKS Touring or typical BMX pedals and rubber soled shoe you would be surprised how early you can start pushing over the top and pulling back (scraping the mud) at the bottom of your pedal stroke.

[Grant McLean]

If you ride flat pedals with teeth like MKS Touring or typical BMX pedals and rubber soled shoe you would be surprised how early you can start pushing over the top and pulling back (scraping the mud) at the bottom of your pedal stroke.

Here's something fun to try if you have bikes with and without clip-in pedals:

Go for a ride for a couple of hours clipped in. When you get home, just jump on
your flat pedal bike and ride around the block. I think you'll find you will
pull a foot off the pedal within the first 10 seconds on the back stroke.

I commute with flat pedals, and after my regular weeknight mountainbike ride
after work, i'd switch to my commuter bike to ride home, and my feet would
come flying off the pedals several times in the first minute or two, every time!

-g

[monkey1]

some good insight going on here