Imitation is so flattering...(knockoff bikes)

[54ny77]

While perusing local craigslist ad for something I need I came across this little gem....

That's some serious replica-ing going on. Frame, wheels and all, perhaps? A quality touch is the el cheapo bmx cranks (or whatever those are).

Are fake big name brand bikes a big deal in bike land?

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/bik/3205987959.html

http://images.craigslist.org/5I65Kb5J43E43k03Hec8ea89aff0715101fc8.jpg

[gavingould]

i'm reasonably sure those are actual Vision cranks, no matter how bmx-y they look. they come OEM on a fair amount of TT bikes, probably cheap.

[BCS]

"up for sale a time rxrs ulteam road bike. my friend bought this frame on ebay from a seller in Hong Kong we found this is a replica. it's not a genuine TIME. we don't try to screw any body. like they did to my friend. this is a nice looking carbon frame with tapered Head tube and Hi-end Componets ! at a fair price !
$2200 with out wheels !
$2500 including shimano carbon 7850 tubeless wheels
Shimano C50 wheels and dura-ace pedals are not for sale
original Time rxrs Retails for over $5000 for the frame set only
I will reply your email a soon posible ! please let your cell number in case you are interest!"

[gavingould]

don't get the internet started on the whole Chinarello/Pinarello thing.

[ultraman6970]

That thing looks pretty good even w/o the time paint over it. Anybody knows the model or anything??

This things are being sold at ebay like in 3000 bucks, I had such money I wouldn't buy a fake... well thats life :)

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101504&start=0

[gavingould]

usually these things are just made at the same factory as the real ones, but probably with lesser grade carbon, less QC, no/fake serial #, and probably went out the side door instead of the loading dock.

at least that's the consensus from several things i've read.
just google Chinarello.

[dave thompson]

usually these things are just made at the same factory as the real ones, but probably with lesser grade carbon, less QC, no/fake serial #, and probably went out the side door instead of the loading dock.

at least that's the consensus from several things i've read.
just google Chinarello.

I have yet to see anything published that says that this is verifiably true: that counterfeit Specialized/Time/Pinarello etc., are in fact coming from the very same buildings where the real brands are made.

[Louis]

How specialized are the molds used to create these "knock-offs"? I thought molds are expensive to make. Is the cost high enough to be prohibitive for the copy-cats? If so, then maybe all have to come from the same plant. If not, then maybe they are made in a different location, with similar molds, but different "special-sauce."

Maybe they're just No-Ad bikes - you're not paying for all the marketing and money spent to support racing teams and goodness knows what else.

[fatallightning]

usually these things are just made at the same factory as the real ones, but probably with lesser grade carbon, less QC, no/fake serial #, and probably went out the side door instead of the loading dock.

at least that's the consensus from several things i've read.
just google Chinarello.
that may be a possibility with cervelo/pinarello/specialized/colnago etc., but Times (and Looks) are made in France. no overseas molds exist.

[54ny77]

maybe it was simply stolen and the real cranks were sold off.

everything else looks as legit as a canal st. rolex from 10 ft. away. :banana:

[gavingould]

I have yet to see anything published that says that this is verifiably true: that counterfeit Specialized/Time/Pinarello etc., are in fact coming from the very same buildings where the real brands are made.
not trying to pick a fight here Dave, but... i've yet to see anything published that this is verifiably false. if it were verifiable where they came from, then the counterfeiters would have failed miserably! i'm just saying that's what i've read (on the internet, grain of salt, etc.)
perhaps the factories are 'sharing' measurements or molds with some buddies across town with some extra carbon sheets to unload cheap? who knows...
very few of the big names on the downtubes are the ones actually making the frame start to finish. not saying it's definitive and absolute fact, but these could be eye-opening for a lot of people:
inrng.com: who makes what? (http://inrng.com/who-makes-what/)
inrng.com: who made your bike? (http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/)

it's certainly not as rampant of the fake handbag trade. i worked in the retail arm of a prominent NYC-based (but overseas produced) leather goods company for a couple years, and the fakes ran from easily discernible to pretty darn good. we saw LOTS of them.

we have a customer with a fake Pinarello at the shop i work at now, at a glance it's pretty good but the finish/paint work, not so much. i have no idea how it rides. he bought it knowing it was fake, but figured it's 90% of a real one at maybe 30% of the cost.

there is a market for this stuff as long as there are buyers who want the appearance without the price or can't be bothered to be sure it's a authorized legit seller.

too good to be true deals... usually are.

[wallymann]

a couple points of clarification:

- the C5*/Extreme*/C4* colnagos have always been made entirely in italy, the monocoque colnagos are made overseas (by giant?).
- time recently added *some* overseas manufature, but the sea that it's over is the mediterannean...iirc the fraction of overseas production is done in some north african country (morocco or tunisia or some such).

that may be a possibility with cervelo/pinarello/specialized/colnago etc., but Times (and Looks) are made in France. no overseas molds exist.

[Rueda Tropical]

I have yet to see anything published that says that this is verifiably true: that counterfeit Specialized/Time/Pinarello etc., are in fact coming from the very same buildings where the real brands are made.

Rumour was probably started by the counterfeiters to make it sound like the frames are better then they are.

I'm sure they are cutting every corner possible to make as much money as possible. It is an illegal operation. They found one pharma counterfieter using red car paint to color fake pills. Dozens of kids in CHina have died from fake pharma and there was a rash of deaths in Central America from counterfeit cough medicine. Who are you going to sue if an illegal product does you serious damage?

A fake bike failing is not the same as a fake pocketbook seam coming undone. I wouldnt pay 10 cents for that "Time".

[ultraman6970]

Well in the case of those drugs probably the chinese government already hung the guys that were selling those drugs, seized all their stuff and left their families with a lot shame and broke for life. In the case of the bikes, well they are in china too... how expensive could be too cad the mold and CNC it in china??? Doubt will be that much as CNC the mold here in the US.

They have a way to do stuff pretty quick and way cheaper than here in the US or europe for sure. They are like 1.5 billion guys, find 500 super smart ones to solve the problem doubt will be super hard.

[Rueda Tropical]

Well in the case of those drugs probably the chinese government already hung the guys that were selling those drugs, seized all their stuff and left their families with a lot shame and broke for life. In the case of the bikes, well they are in china too... how expensive could be too cad the mold and CNC it in china??? Doubt will be that much as CNC the mold here in the US.

They have a way to do stuff pretty quick and way cheaper than here in the US or europe for sure. They are like 1.5 billion guys, find 500 super smart ones to solve the problem doubt will be super hard.

That's not the point. It's not about the quality of legit Chinese products and the fact that a few players paid the ultimate price because they killed a bunch of Chinese children has not made a dent in the illegal counterfeiting industry. Still tons of counterfeit pharma in the US.

If it's an illegal operation -why spend an extra nickel to make the product safe? More money in my pocket. No brand reputation to protect, I'm stealing someone else's brand. You don't think they would not be happy to trade your teeth for a few more bucks in their pocket?

[Gummee]

ya know... I've yet to hear about a chinese frame breaking. I'm sure its happened, I just haven't heard about it.

Since I'm on a serious budget, my next frame's likely to be chinese.

M

[Rueda Tropical]

ya know... I've yet to hear about a chinese frame breaking. I'm sure its happened, I just haven't heard about it.

Since I'm on a serious budget, my next frame's likely to be chinese.

M

I think people are confusing 2 seerate types of frames. Arguably the best carbon fiber frames in the world are made in Taiwan. I imagine some very good frames are made in the PRC as well.

This is not about those frames. This is about illegal knock-offs. Don't assume you are getting Chinese quality when a thief makes your frame rather then a legit business owner. to conflate the two is an insult to Chinese manufacturers who have worked hard to be the best and build a reputation for quality as well as price.

[ultraman6970]

??

That's not the point. It's not about the quality of legit Chinese products and the fact that a few players paid the ultimate price because they killed a bunch of Chinese children has not made a dent in the illegal counterfeiting industry. Still tons of counterfeit pharma in the US.

If it's an illegal operation -why spend an extra nickel to make the product safe? More money in my pocket. No brand reputation to protect, I'm stealing someone else's brand. You don't think they would not be happy to trade your teeth for a few more bucks in their pocket?

[MattTuck]

I think Rueda's point is that frames made in the east are not, on their face bad, and may actually be some of the best carbon frames out there. The question is legitimate frames made in china being sold under a known brand (which conveys a certain level of quality assurance and testing) and a counterfeit frame that purports to be a known brand, or is unbranded.

We shouldn't, conflate all frames made in the Orient as inferior or unsafe. That is how I read the post.

[Rueda Tropical]

??

What's so confusing?

Do you think if some guy was turning out fake Crumptons that look like the real thing in a back room in Texas that the fakes are going to be on the same planet in terms of safety, quality and performance as a real Crumpton ...just because they are both made in Texas and look similar? You think the guy illegally trying to make a quick buck is going to build anything remotely similar to what a company that's dedicated to building a brand and a reputation is going to build.

[William]

What's so confusing?

Do you think if some guy was turning out fake Crumptons that look like the real thing in a back room in Texas that the fakes are going to be on the same planet in terms of safety, quality and performance as a real Crumpton ...just because they are both made in Texas and look similar? You think the guy illegally trying to make a quick buck is going to build anything remotely similar to what a company that's dedicated to building a brand and a reputation is going to build.


I understand your point and I don't disagree. But, as I've seen in the lighting industry, the same company making lights for you (your design) can also be selling them out the back door. I see no reason why it can't happen for carbon fiber frames as well. As someone mentioned earlier, molds aren't cheap. There is a good chance they come out of the same factory. I'm not saying that is the case in the OP, just pointing out it's not beyond the realm of possibility.





William