View Full Version : Tubular Tape is Superior to Glue
laupsi
08-03-2012, 05:03 PM
for the first time ever I used "gluing" tape to adhere a tubular tire to a rim. the process was simple, neat and took all of about 5 minutes, once I had thoroughly stretched the Conti Competition tire.
I have been riding on taped tubulars that a bike shop had prepared for me for over 2,000 miles and have no issues at all w/keeping the tires to the rims.
my only wish is that would have gone to the tape sooner. :)
ultraman6970
08-03-2012, 07:01 PM
Prepare yourself at the time to change the tubular :) Hope you are strong hehe
for the first time ever I used "gluing" tape to adhere a tubular tire to a rim. the process was simple, neat and took all of about 5 minutes, once I had thoroughly stretched the Conti Competition tire.
I have been riding on taped tubulars that a bike shop had prepared for me for over 2,000 miles and have no issues at all w/keeping the tires to the rims.
my only wish is that would have gone to the tape sooner. :)
Heretic! Kill the Unbeliever!
http://thewallmachine.com/files/1343601592.jpg
:D
I glued my last set on - but only because they were my first tires on my new wheelset; I wanted it to be "official." After this, back to tape.
It can be tough pulling off a taped tire; make sure you've got levers if you try to do it on the road. Then again, most pro-gluers of tires say that if you can get their tire off the bike without a razor, they've done something wrong.
Clean-up for tape can be vexing; that's really the only drawback. It'll leave bits of adhesive that don't easily come away, even with Goof-Off or other solvents.
But paint stripper (only on alloy rims) works wonders. Brush it on, wait ten, wipe it off with a wet rag, throw out the rag.
gearguywb
08-03-2012, 09:04 PM
I leave a small section un-taped directly across from the valve stem (1/2"). Just enough to insert tire lever and start the removal process. Worked very well the last couple of years.
Louis
08-03-2012, 09:08 PM
I leave a small section un-taped directly across from the valve stem (1/2").
Do you mean 180* away from the stem, i.e. where the rim is welded? (not that that's bad, I'm just confirming the location)
thwart
08-03-2012, 10:19 PM
Dunno... the last rim I taped (and it will be the last) I scraped up a bit trying to get a flat off with a screwdriver. Probably took me 15 min to get that tire off. Must admit there was a small amount of old glue on the rim and tire before applying the tape.
No, 'twas not 'extreme' tape.
Levers... this taped-on tire laughed at levers. Good luck.
mister
08-03-2012, 10:27 PM
i don't see any problems with glue
get your technique down and it's not messy
comes off fine and usually don't even have to clean the rim between new tires, just a thin tack coat on the rim...
ultraman6970
08-03-2012, 10:48 PM
Darn tape is so good that you cant pull the darn tubbies off the rim :D It is just insane :) ideally made for the paranoids :)
Louis
08-03-2012, 10:49 PM
get your technique down and it's not messy
This, IMO, is the issue. With tape I assume there is only a very, very short learning curve. Glue, to this novice, appears to be black magic, if only because there are a gazillion different ways to do it, so you have no way of knowing what's the correct way. At least with the tape, you just read the Tufo directions and do it.
A while back I got everything I needed to try out some tubulars, including the Conti Competition tires and Conti glue. So far I haven't bothered to try. (I'm generally pretty happy with my PR-3 and GP 4000 tires I'm currently running.)
I'm probably more likely to give the tubulars a try if folks out there say that the tape is nearly as good as the glue. For a novice installer, I'm sure it is, but the removal of the flat tire is IMO the big drawback. (Dealing with flats is a drawback for tubulars in general, compared to clinchers.)
bismo37
08-04-2012, 01:07 AM
So... can I use tape on a rim that already has a small amount of glue or should clean it bare again? I'm needing to replace my tubies and was thinking of giving the tape method a try.
Absolutely, unless you've got chunks of old glue. Otherwise,tape away. That said, it never hurts to have a clean rim. Oh, and there are YouTube vids of Tufo tape use.
Fixed
08-04-2012, 05:26 AM
Someone better tell the pros ..they got it all wrong
Cheers :bike::)
gearguywb
08-04-2012, 05:48 AM
Do you mean 180* away from the stem, i.e. where the rim is welded? (not that that's bad, I'm just confirming the location)
You got it. I leave enough room to fit a fairly wide tire lever.
It will take some work to get any tubie off....the nature of the beast.
On a ride a couple of months back (in a town where I was visiting for work), a group ride went across a BAD set of RR tracks. I flatted the front, 4 others flatted clinchers. I had was changed and ready to roll prior to any of the others. Just not a big deal once you change the first one on the road.
laupsi
08-04-2012, 06:19 AM
okay so I have never removed a taped tire from a carbon rim. can only imagine at this point that it would be quite tedious. I know about the tire irons and about the difficulty removing the tape and will get "schooled" once I am in a position to remove one myself.
another tid bit, I use tire sealant and have never flatted on my tubulars. never flattened while using the sealant that is. hope I didn't just jynx myself :eek:
finally was in Majorca this spring and spoke to a few ex pros. they too use the tape.
okay so I have never removed a taped tire from a carbon rim. can only imagine at this point that it would be quite tedious. I know about the tire irons and about the difficulty removing the tape and will get "schooled" once I am in a position to remove one myself.
another tid bit, I use tire sealant and have never flatted on my tubulars. never flattened while using the sealant that is. hope I didn't just jynx myself :eek:
finally was in Majorca this spring and spoke to a few ex pros. they too use the tape.
it is not tedious at all. if you are at home and it's time to change a tire, apply a little heat via a hair dryer or heat gun and it peels off cleanly. on the road, it doesn't matter if it comes off cleanly, you can clean it up later. and, to the naysayers, a properly glued tubular should be just as hard to pull off as a taped one. people assume folks who use tape don't know how to glue, or that it is somehow not "proper." hogwash. tape works great. gluing isn't rocket science, but tape is faster and easier. glue = 2 days , tape= 5 minutes. ask justin spinelli (another ex-pro) about tape. he won't use anything but tape for the road.
oldpotatoe
08-04-2012, 07:43 AM
for the first time ever I used "gluing" tape to adhere a tubular tire to a rim. the process was simple, neat and took all of about 5 minutes, once I had thoroughly stretched the Conti Competition tire.
I have been riding on taped tubulars that a bike shop had prepared for me for over 2,000 miles and have no issues at all w/keeping the tires to the rims.
my only wish is that would have gone to the tape sooner. :)
Good for you but as a bike shop, I'll stick with glue, thanks.
Someone better tell the pros ..they got it all wrong
Cheers :bike::)
it makes more sense for pro mechanics to use glue. they have a bunch of dudes back at the service course gluing tires in huge batches. at races, they rip off old tires and then go ape on the carbon rims with stiff steel brushes and re-glue (it is scary to watch). they don't have to worry about ever removing old glue, or being gentle to the rim bed, because the wheels don't need to last more than one season, if that. for the home dude, tape is the way to go.
oldpotatoe
08-04-2012, 07:46 AM
it is not tedious at all. if you are at home and it's time to change a tire, apply a little heat via a hair dryer or heat gun and it peels off cleanly. on the road, it doesn't matter if it comes off cleanly, you can clean it up later. and, to the naysayers, a properly glued tubular should be just as hard to pull off as a taped one. people assume folks who use tape don't know how to glue, or that it is somehow not "proper." hogwash. tape works great. gluing isn't rocket science, but tape is faster and easier. glue = 2 days , tape= 5 minutes. ask justin spinelli (another ex-pro) about tape. he won't use anything but tape for the road.
Glue doesn't take 2 days...talk about hogwash. tape takes less time but isn't any easier if ya know how to glue.
ultratoad
08-04-2012, 07:53 AM
Oh my Gosh! That title! Gonna start a war!
Well, anyway.... Glue works very well but I like the Tufo tape. Very easy and effective installation. I use Veloflex Criteriums on Ambrosio Nemesis rims. I have been told that this combo wont work-- but it works very well. I can pull a flat away from the rim (and off) in the field with plastic levers and some quality time. Spare tire on without glue and home-- no problem. I can roll the Tufo tape glue off of the rim cleanly with a hair dryer in just a few minutes. Then I can pull the actual Tufo tape off of the Veloflex in one piece leaving behind very little sticky stuff. A little solvent and all is good. Mounting a new tire is a snap.... AND yes, either method and tubulars are worth it....
Glue doesn't take 2 days...talk asbout hogwash. tape takes less time but isn't any easier if ya know how to glue.
you and I have disagreed on this before!! believe me, i know how to glue a tire (and so does spinelli), taping is a lot easier. by easier, i mean faster, fewer steps.
edit: i will concede this: glue is MUCH cheaper than tape. not really a factor for most weekend warriors though.
forrestw
08-04-2012, 07:59 AM
it makes more sense for pro mechanics to use glue. they have a bunch of dudes back at the service course gluing tires in huge batches. at races, they rip off old tires and then go ape on the carbon rims with stiff steel brushes and re-glue (it is scary to watch). they don't have to worry about ever removing old glue, or being gentle to the rim bed, because the wheels don't need to last more than one season, if that. for the home dude, tape is the way to go.
I can't speak from experience wrt tape but I know for sure that over-glued tubulars are prone to be very difficult to remove and when you use too much glue it can become very hard indeed to remove a tire without damaging the bond of the base tape.
I'll stay with glue, when you get it right your tires are both solidly bonded for riding but still faster to change out than a clincher- I use a very thin glue layer opposite the valve stem. This works because an inflated tire has to roll off of a long section but can be initially pried off of a short section with a tire lever and then fully removed in a few more seconds.
oldpotatoe
08-04-2012, 08:06 AM
you and I have disagreed on this before!! believe me, i know how to glue a tire (and so does spinelli), taping is a lot easier. by easier, i mean faster, fewer steps.
edit: i will concede this: glue is MUCH cheaper than tape. not really a factor for most weekend warriors though.
If ya know how then you 'know' it doesn't take 2 days. Gluing with glue isn't hard, as in lots and lots of time. Ya know in a bike shop, one thing is absolutely certain. If a customer is unhappy(like rolling a tire), you will hear about it. Been gluing the same way for 27 years now and haven't had that call or visit yet. I have seen all the tape goop on a tire/rim when I have to take it off to true the wheel. I have seen parts of carbon rims come off with the tape.
If gluing took days and days, took a lot of expensive or unique equipment and unique skills, maybe tape would be a better idea but like a lot of stuff 'bike', there is so much BS and misinformation out there on the interweb, really wears me out sometimes.
ultraman6970
08-04-2012, 08:14 AM
Glue 2 days??... paranoics!
oldpotatoe
08-04-2012, 08:20 AM
Glue 2 days??... paranoics!
Gonna glue 2 cross tubies today in the shop. Cross takes a bit more time but even so, about an hour...yep, wait to ride for 24 hours but the actual gluing event doesn't take 2 days(even heard 3 days...my aunt matilda's mustache!!).
If ya know how then you 'know' it doesn't take 2 days. Gluing with glue isn't hard, as in lots and lots of time. Ya know in a bike shop, one thing is absolutely certain. If a customer is unhappy(like rolling a tire), you will hear about it. Been gluing the same way for 27 years now and haven't had that call or visit yet. I have seen all the tape goop on a tire/rim when I have to take it off to true the wheel. I have seen parts of carbon rims come off with the tape.
If gluing took days and days, took a lot of expensive or unique equipment and unique skills, maybe tape would be a better idea but like a lot of stuff 'bike', there is so much BS and misinformation out there on the interweb, really wears me out sometimes.
if someone 'knows' how to use tape they won't leave any goop behind and they won't damage the rim bed. never happened to me. please don't imply i'm spewing misinformation. i'm trying to keep this light. i never said glue is bad or difficult, i just said tape is easier. frosting cupcakes isn't 'hard', but i still think it's a pain in the a$$.
Glue 2 days??... paranoics!
if a complete glue job start to finish takes longer than 5 minutes, then it takes longer than tape. i honestly don't care if people use tape, glue, or unicorn sperm to adhere their tires. i've used 2 of the three methods, and i know what works for me.
oldpotatoe
08-04-2012, 08:36 AM
if someone 'knows' how to use tape they won't leave any goop behind and they won't damage the rim bed. never happened to me. please don't imply i'm spewing misinformation. i'm trying to keep this light. i never said glue is bad or difficult, i just said tape is easier. frosting cupcakes isn't 'hard', but i still think it's a pain in the a$$.
"you and I have disagreed on this before!! believe me, i know how to glue a tire "
happy taping
"you and I have disagreed on this before!! believe me, i know how to glue a tire "
happy taping
glue on, brother
Fixed
08-04-2012, 09:24 AM
:fight:When did easy = better
Cheers :)
Let's just agree to disagree
RacerJRP
08-04-2012, 09:28 AM
Just to weigh in here......I will be gluing a pair of Conti Sprinters to some new FC 404's either today or tomorrow.
It takes me an hour+ to get it done but its no biggie, and no I am not govered in glue when I am done either.
:fight:When did easy = better
Cheers :)
Let's just agree to disagree
when the end result is exactly the same, ie. the tire stays on, easy does = better in my book. and there is no hate! glue on people, and take a few minutes to enjoy the fumes!
another tid bit, I use tire sealant and have never flatted on my tubulars. never flattened while using the sealant that is. hope I didn't just jynx myself :eek:
You will. A couple months back I tossed on a brand-spankin' new tire, shot some goop in it... and promptly hit a shard of road-colored metal that ripped an inch-long hole in it. Worst blow out I've ever had; big bang, wobbly back end for a second.
Worse part? I'd just blown by half a dozen obnoxious fixie riders. Le sigh...
My own two cents. And this comes from using all products on the track as well.
First, the quality has been spotty on tubular tapes. If the pack is a little old, the glue doesn't seem to work as well. Remember that the tubular tape has to carry all the glue that goes between the tire and the rim and if there's any variation, or variation in how well the glue works, you're going to feel it.
Second, some tires have very coarse base tapes and need an extra coat or two of rim cement when you're using the glue. You don't have that chance with rim tape, or if you glue the base tape with rim cement before using the tape, you're not just using tape any longer.
Third, if you have rim cement on your rim already, and it's at all rough, a fresh thin coat of rim cement will smooth it out very nicely. A base tape won't. Of course, you can use a fresh thin coat of rim cement before you use the base tape, but you keep finding yourself back in Stu Thorne's territory where he uses both.
The base tape also doesn't accommodate different rim widths. Glue of course does.
The base tape actually is pretty good at filling the gap between a deep tire bed and the shallow curvature of a large-diameter tubular tire -- hence why it's popular in cyclocross. It also seems to resist incursion of dirt and water well, again an advantage in cross.
On the track, what scares me is seeing a brand new tire, brand new rim, and brand new rider, all combined wtih a brand new package of tubular tape. Yes it looks easy, but it simply needs to be glued better than that. Now a bad rim cement job is no better than a tape job, and probably worse. A good rim cement job can be modified for the particular job at hand, and will typically be better. Therein lies the disagreement above. If you really know what you're doing (either done it for a long time and properly, or had someone show you how to do it right), I'd argue that it's a better method. If you don't do a good gluing job, it probably won't be. Plus, on the road, unless you're really racing your wheels to the limit, it probably doesn't matter whether you have a 70% solution with tubular tape -- your tire will stay on and you'll never really test whether it'll do so in a pinch. On training rides, tubular tape can work for almost anyone, ex pros included. What is the best method for gluing a tire on really well? I'd say it needs to be rim cement, but only if done properly. And these interminable discussions here and on other forums show that even among aficionadoes of expensive tires and wheels, very few really do that superior gluing job. So perhaps the pragmatic answer is to let those people have their tubular tape, and those who really test their tires to the limit or want the very best adhesion will optimize what they can with rim cement simply because they can optimize with rim cement; there are no options with tubular tape.
laupsi
08-04-2012, 12:05 PM
perhaps I should start over, didn't know this was sacred territory.
I have never been good at gluing. I find myself questioniong whether I have enough glue, or if the glue is applied evenly to the rim. w/the tape all the guess work is out. Again I have lots of miles and more than a couple races on tires taped to carbon rims. I have had no issues, unlike my experiences w/glued on tires. I will bow down and state this is probably due to my inexperience w/gluing and not the process of gluing itself.
Fixed
08-04-2012, 12:34 PM
when the end result is exactly the same, ie. the tire stays on, easy does = better in my book. and there is no hate! glue on people, and take a few minutes to enjoy the fumes!
What is with all !!!!
Cheers :)
mister
08-04-2012, 12:47 PM
tape sounds like a pita if you have to clean the rim between each new tire.
get a good basecoat of glue on a clean rim and when you pull the tire off, a simple tack coat will even soften up the old basecoat and everything smooths right out. so really, it's a tack coat on the rim and a few coats on the new tires basetape. pretty simple and quick.
wooly
08-04-2012, 01:51 PM
Like Laupsi - I'm a believer too. Tufo tape has been berry berry good to me.
jblande
08-04-2012, 02:38 PM
Mr 11.4: what is your gluing method for the road? You refer to proper method...what counts as proper for you? Would appreciate your input...
forrestw
08-04-2012, 04:49 PM
perhaps I should start over, didn't know this was sacred territory.
I have never been good at gluing. I find myself questioniong whether I have enough glue, or if the glue is applied evenly to the rim. w/the tape all the guess work is out. Again I have lots of miles and more than a couple races on tires taped to carbon rims. I have had no issues, unlike my experiences w/glued on tires. I will bow down and state this is probably due to my inexperience w/gluing and not the process of gluing itself.
500 posts here and you wouldn't know that the ground of tubular adhesion is more hallowed than - tubular vs clincher, Campy vs ..., steel vs ..., emacs vs vi? What really makes me question your claimed naiveté is simply your title which could have been phrased as "I like tape better" as opposed to a claim baldly staked on this hallowed ground.
I know rock climbers who're either terrified of leading in ground where they have to place their own gear and others where I've looked over their placements after the fact and been genuinely scared on their behalfs.
There's nothing at all wrong with climbing on pre-placed bolts or on top-rope or using tape if you don't care to learn how to or take the time to use glue.
However if a climber - novice or experienced - tries to tell me that sport climbing or bouldering is the one and only sh*t and trad climbing is inherently inferior ... yeah I'll be calling foul.
okay so I have never removed a taped tire from a carbon rim. can only imagine at this point that it would be quite tedious. e.
Hopefully you will have better luck than I.
Carbon composite (rim bed) came off with the tire. Zipp rim. Gave it to my waste expert.
mister
08-04-2012, 05:39 PM
Mr 11.4: what is your gluing method for the road? You refer to proper method...what counts as proper for you? Would appreciate your input...
if you search the forums you'll be able to find it pretty easy.
laupsi
08-04-2012, 05:42 PM
500 posts here and you wouldn't know that the ground of tubular adhesion is more hallowed than - tubular vs clincher, Campy vs ..., steel vs ..., emacs vs vi? What really makes me question your claimed naiveté is simply your title which could have been phrased as "I like tape better" as opposed to a claim baldly staked on this hallowed ground.
I know rock climbers who're either terrified of leading in ground where they have to place their own gear and others where I've looked over their placements after the fact and been genuinely scared on their behalfs.
There's nothing at all wrong with climbing on pre-placed bolts or on top-rope or using tape if you don't care to learn how to or take the time to use glue.
However if a climber - novice or experienced - tries to tell me that sport climbing or bouldering is the one and only sh*t and trad climbing is inherently inferior ... yeah I'll be calling foul.
huh???
perhaps I should start over, didn't know this was sacred territory.
I have never been good at gluing. I find myself questioniong whether I have enough glue, or if the glue is applied evenly to the rim. w/the tape all the guess work is out. Again I have lots of miles and more than a couple races on tires taped to carbon rims. I have had no issues, unlike my experiences w/glued on tires. I will bow down and state this is probably due to my inexperience w/gluing and not the process of gluing itself.
Hell yes, it's sacred ground. You're at the perfect junction of tubulars, gluing technique, carbon rims, and Serottan anal retentiveness. Oh my god, are you on sacred ground. Watch for letter bombs when USPS delivery catches up with this forum.
Actually, it's all about how any gluing job, any tire, any whatever, can work most or all of the time for you, so you're happy with it. Big deal. Enjoy it and don't let anyone harass you here. The thing about carbon rims, for example -- carbon rim manufacturers tend to exclude as much resin as possible in the tire bed because it's an easy place to save a few grams and help stiffen the rim. That means that carbon fibers are right on the surface and not protected well by resin (not like on the braking surfaces, for example). If you happen to pull a tubular tape off in the same direction that the end of a bit of carbon fiber is pointing, you won't rip it up, but if you pull in the opposite direction so you lift the end of the fiber, you'll start peeling up carbon. Honestly, if you do a little, don't lose sleep. Glue it back down and it's just like Zipp or whoever would have handled it. But remember that when you remove rim cement you aren't peeling the same way, so you don't lift up carbon fiber -- it's just about a different mechanical action. If you watch for peeling carbon fiber and switch to the other end of the tubular tape and pull from that end, you're usually just fine. This isn't rocket science. (Or wait, maybe it is ...)
William
08-04-2012, 08:16 PM
Alright all you tape heads and glue sniffers, keep on with the nice nice.;)
This ain't no Campy/Shimano, tubular/clincher gun fight. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/gun.gif
:D;)
William
Alright all you tape heads and glue sniffers, keep on with the nice nice.;)
This ain't no Campy/Shimano, tubular/clincher gun fight. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/gun.gif
:D;)
William
Of course it isn't. Those are gun fights. This is religious sacrilege.
Right up there with listening to Hallelulah on Shrek instead of from Leonard Cohen.
Really, as I pointed out, it's all about what floats your boat. If you're on the track and you're seen using tape, nobody will ride behind you, which isn't a good thing. But tape is popular for a reason and if it brought about constant crashes, people would stop using it. If you're gluing tires for Wiggo, you'll probably be using rim cement. But how many people here are actually racing at the limit on tires they've glued or taped? It really doesn't matter. Always learn to improve your technique and always enjoy every ride. That's all it's about. (Of course, since you're probably using tubulars -- I've had a few clincher users ask how to use rim cement on clinchers, seriously -- we know you at least are on the right stairway to heaven.)
Charles M
08-05-2012, 07:35 PM
you and I have disagreed on this before!! believe me, i know how to glue a tire (and so does spinelli), taping is a lot easier. by easier, i mean faster, fewer steps.
edit: i will concede this: glue is MUCH cheaper than tape. not really a factor for most weekend warriors though.
You forgot to add that the fewer steps are also far simpler... IMO it's hard for anyone with even limited skills to get a tape job wrong if directions are followed.
I have no problem with glue either, but I haven't used it in years. Both the install and in most cases the clean up and reinstall are easier. In the case the tape doesnt come off with the tire and or doesnt peel off clean, the residue then requires the same process as cleaning glue...
The one down side Ive found is that in most cases you cant reuse the tire. But I've not pulled many tires off that didnt need replacing anyway.
As for the Pro's, Of the dozen or so tires I've seen peel off the rim under use, several were on bikes being raced by pro's... Indurain was a big one, Neal Stevens, lots of us remember Joseba Beloki... A couple in crits and maybe 3-4 local ones that were "properly installed" by shops.
"Pro's" is a red fish... Most guys that glue it themselves do it right because it's their skin in the game.
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