How a bike rides (aka changing 5 variables at once, AND carbon vs. steel)

[MattTuck]

When I took my bike into the shop last week, I decided to take out a demo bike, just for the fun of it.

I left my Lemond Zurich (steel) while I took a Guru Flight.

This new bike feels very light, comparatively. Feels like the top half of the bike fell off, when I get out of the saddle, that's how easy it is to throw it back and forth.

I have also noticed that it is so much smoother and less harsh. A big improvement. Now, here's my dilemma. I'm not a prima donna either, I just like to get my bike to a point where I'm happy with it and ride it until something breaks. I'm not after super smooth riding, or the newest or lightest or greatest components.

I really liked the ride of the Guru Flight but I also am a big fan of steel, so much so that I have been on the waitlist with Dave Kirk for about 5 months. I have faith that Dave will make me a great steel frame.

Unfortunately, riding this carbon frame made me question whether steel was a good next bike.

Now, here's where it gets complicated, and I'm asking for the collective wisdom of the forum.

The bikes were very different.

1. Frame material: Carbon vs. steel, no need to rehash this, but they're different.

2. Fork: My current bike has an ICON OCLV Air Rail, the bike I was demo'ing had an Enve 2.0 fork.

3. Wheels: Current bike has a mismatch of bontrager x-lite (18 spoke) up front and a 105 hub laced to open sport (36 hole) in the back, demo bike has easton EA70 wheels.

4 Tires: I ride perhaps the hardest tires on the planet (conti gatorskins), demo bike had Michelin Pro4 Service Course tires.

5. Seatpost: My bike has a zero set back post (known to be more harsh than setback posts) with less than 1 fist of seatpost showing. Demo bike has a zipp service course setback post with 2 fists of seatpost showing.


Question: If you had to attribute the contribution of each of the 5 items listed to the total difference in ride quality, how would you do it?

Thanks!

[MattTuck]

I also set 4 strava Personal records riding the Guru. :rolleyes:

[TAW]

My order would be

1. Tires
2. Wheels
3. Frame material
4. Fork
5. Seatpost

[dave thompson]

1 tires
2 wheels
3 fork
4 frame material
.
.
.
.
.
.
5 seat post

[Steve in SLO]

Agree with both above. Dave's modified list is probably correct.

[eddief]

A. weight - lightness affects all right from the getgo. 5 lbs less bike is 5 lbs less bike.

1. Tires
2. Wheels
3. Frame material
4. Fork
5. Seatpost


My new Curtlo OX steel with Enve fork rides really damn good. 1500 gram A23 wheels with 25 mm excellent tires. Love it. Contrast overall ride and zip with Roubaix. No contest. Besides the plastic factor of steel vs carbon, the Roubaix wins in every category I can detect. I said detect, did not say measure.

The one I wonder about sometimes is the difference, if any, between the feel of carbon vs aluminum handlebars. I have carbon bars on only one of three road bikes (the Roubaix) and I swear my hands get less tired on that one. Just my imagination...

[dekindy]

If your wheels are able, check with Stan's as they are the expert, do a road tubeless conversion and run lower pressures and see if you get the ride that you want. Keep the steel and don't go over to the dark side.

[Louis]

Get one of each: Fe, AL, Ti, CF

Then you can compare as much as you like.

[CNY rider]

Those Contis are barely a step up from what Fred Flintstone drives on.
Whatever bike you put them on is going to ride like crap.
When you get the bike from Dave put some nice tires on it (may I suggest Grand Bois 700X28?) and enjoy.

[MattTuck]

Those Contis are barely a step up from what Fred Flintstone drives on.
Whatever bike you put them on is going to ride like crap.
When you get the bike from Dave put some nice tires on it (may I suggest Grand Bois 700X28?) and enjoy.

Did you ever see Fred Flintstone changing a flat!?


Thanks for the advice all. It truly was such a night and day experience, that I needed a reality check. I was pretty sure the tires were a big part of it, but needed some confirmation. I was really freaking out thinking I'd have to cancel the bike with Dave.

[Ken Robb]

I had a Lemond Zurich with that fork and I did not like it as much as the Ouzo Pro I had next so I think the fork might be at least as important as the wheels in your comparo.

[parris]

I just got back from the first ride on my JKS with the Terraplane option. We went with Fulcrum 3s and Michelin pro4 tires in 700x25. My other bikes are outfitted with open4cd and lower price Contis' The difference was dramatic and good. Dave has the chops and more importantly the care to build bikes that will keep us smiling (other than hills) for a long long time.

[djg]

1 tires
2 wheels
3 fork
4 frame material
.
.
.
.
.
.
5 seat post

Yeah, this I think, especially if we incude tire make/model, plus tire size, plus tire pressure under "tires." I think that a couple of different wheel sets, some tire choices, and paying attention to a decent pump gauge can provide all sorts of flexibility without swapping the rest of the bike.

Still, different bikes -- same contact points, reasonable geometries -- can feel pretty different, especially in back-to-back a/b comparisons. That's a little different from the question how much you notice such differences over time (and very different from the question what type of performance difference it makes). But sure, they can seem different. For some, that's a reason to have several road bikes; for others, it's a reason to optimize one, and only one.

[1centaur]

I had a Lemond Zurich before I converted to carbon fiber bikes. Maybe around 19 lbs? New bike around 16ish?

As all know, I'm a big believer in CF vs. steel when it comes to comfort - vibrations are transmitted in a very different way that my senses like better.

I think those wheels are pretty close, the fork really should not be a big difference in comfort, the post no way, the tires absolutely (PSI?) and the frame material for sure. Tires 1, frame 2, the rest, not so much. Change the tires on your current bike and fix flats a bit more often - worth it. Buy tires from England.

[MattTuck]

I had a Lemond Zurich before I converted to carbon fiber bikes. Maybe around 19 lbs? New bike around 16ish?

As all know, I'm a big believer in CF vs. steel when it comes to comfort - vibrations are transmitted in a very different way that my senses like better.

I think those wheels are pretty close, the fork really should not be a big difference in comfort, the post no way, the tires absolutely (PSI?) and the frame material for sure. Tires 1, frame 2, the rest, not so much. Change the tires on your current bike and fix flats a bit more often - worth it. Buy tires from England.

Dude, you'd love the Guru flight. It is right up your alley.. white, red and black.

http://www.roadbicycles.ca/bikes/images/2012/Guru%20Flight.jpg

I hear what you're saying with regard to frame material. I'm not opposed to CF. The bike was just SO different in so many different ways that I had to try to deconstruct and understand them a little bit more. For someone who doesn't mess around with new equipment much, I was like, "is this what I'm missing????". For sure, the frame is lighter and stiffer in terms of pedaling efficiency. And that has very little to do (I believe with the other factors, perhaps except for wheels).

[bobswire]

Yes there is quite a bit of difference, for the good or for the bad is very subjective.
I have 4 bikes at present.
2 steel
1 carbon
1 Alu.

They all get to use the same tires and wheels,in that way there no conflict of it being the wheels/tires/frame.
IMO the frame and its geo is the decider not wheels or tires since they can be exchanged.
The steel bikes below may be ten years or older but don't let that fool you, they are every bit as good in ride and agility as the CDA and Seven I sold in this forum.
Anyway for me steel feels the most lively in the sense I feel more in tune with the feel of the road but then again I'm a steel junkie so going to carbon was long process.

Carbon feels muted or subdued compared to steel/ti in transmitting ground vibration (some feel it makes it more comfortable). Frame is stiff (in a good way) feels lighter climbing while everything you put into the pedal propels you forward,just a different feel than steel.

The more I ride it the more I like it.

Alu is the most harsh in that everything little bump,crack or pebble gets transmitted up into the arms. IMO Alu gets more out of wheel/ tire/ fork selection than steel/carbon.

Having said that I wouldn't second guess your choice of a DK frame,I'd take a DK built frame over any bike frame on the planet.




http://i46.tinypic.com/mv566q.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/11qkzzp.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/3524z93.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/14slj82.jpg

[vav]

1-Tires
2-Tires
3-Tires
4-Tires
5- 1,2,3 & 4

Very humble opinion of course

[AngryScientist]

1-Tires
2-Tires
3-Tires
4-Tires
5- 1,2,3 & 4

Very humble opinion of course

yea matt, for the love of vittoria, get rid of those gatorskins for everyday riding!

[Kontact]

Geometry can also have an effect on how we perceive the ride.

I'd suggest a lot of other bikes before Guru.

[KidWok]

Bob nails it...geometry trumps all. All that being equal, my equation for a perfect bike includes welded steel frame with modern tubing (853 and Plat OX are both great), steel fork with a nice bend, 28mm tires, nice components, and a nice set of wheels with low bearing drag.

Tai

[Doug Fattic]

There is a huge difference in ride characteristics between steel frames depending on its tubing diameter and wall thickness. Almost all steel frames made for the masses use thick and heavy steel because a company doesn't want them to break. If you are less than 200lb and/or pedal smoothly a production steel frame won't be ideal for your needs. As a custom builder and painter, I get to ride all kinds of good steel frames – not only the ones I make but often I'll recondition others with new parts and do test rides to make sure everything is working properly. I can certainly notice tubing choice differences as well as geometry. To truly take advantage of steel, it needs to be custom made so lighter, thiner tubes can be used that match the customer (instead of being made for the heaviest riders)

I sold one of my custom frames to an acquaintance I just happened to met on a ride near my shop. He had a steel Lemond and I asked him if I could ride it to get an impression of its ride. He agreed to swap and within less than a mile he realized the big difference. So did I. I couldn't think of something pleasant to say except "this is pretty stiff" (and thinking to myself this thing is really harsh) He showed up the very next day with his checkbook.

The big advantage of Carbon is that it can be made light and still work for customers of all weights and sizes while steel works best if its wall thickness and diameters are custom chosen for each person individually.

[keppler]

As a comparision I have both aluminum and carbon bikes. I've swapped the Campy Eurus wheels I have to each bike and done rides along the same route with each.

The aluminum one is stiff, on smooth roads if you're hammering, sprinting or climbing, it just goes, but over less than ideal road surfaces you're taking on a lot of road buzz through the hands and body, and you get fatigued if you're doing hours of riding.

On the carbon bike you can do all the same things, but there's no road buzz, I can ride it for 5 hours and still feel amazing. When I have a choice I'll always pick the carbon one.

I've since had Hed C2 23mm wheels built for the aluminum one, and with 90 psi it takes a bit of that buzz away, but over really rough roads the buzz and stiffness still come through.

Recently a guy lent me his Ambrosio Nemesis tubulars (25mm, 90 psi) and the ride was even better than the C2's. I could whack over speed bumps, rocks, gravel, road cracks, the aluminum frame felt like a cadillac. The feel of the wheels was that different.

Since I don't have the money to get a nice custom steel frame, I'll be looking at getting a pair of tubular alloy wheels (Record hubs, 32 spokes F/R, Nemesis or Mavic rims, etc.).

[oldpotatoe]

I had a Lemond Zurich before I converted to carbon fiber bikes. Maybe around 19 lbs? New bike around 16ish?

As all know, I'm a big believer in CF vs. steel when it comes to comfort - vibrations are transmitted in a very different way that my senses like better.

I think those wheels are pretty close, the fork really should not be a big difference in comfort, the post no way, the tires absolutely (PSI?) and the frame material for sure. Tires 1, frame 2, the rest, not so much. Change the tires on your current bike and fix flats a bit more often - worth it. Buy tires from England.

I find that really interesting-CF vs steel when it comes to comfort. Not trying to be argumentative, but since every carbon frame is made differently.....threads per inch, layup, tube size, frame construction type, amount of glue used, lotsa ETC, every frame rides differently PLUS 'ride quality' is completely subjective.

I work on many carbon bikes, and some, like the Scott I just tuned, rode like an ass hatchet...VERY harsh, big tube aluminum type harsh. I couldn't imagine riding that for 2-3 hours. Sure is light tho but my 5 pound heavier Merckx 'feels' as light and is certainly more comfy.

So...yep carbon can be 'tuned' a zillion ways but I don't think as a material, it is automatically 'more comfy' just cuz it's CF.

IMHO, of course.

[Ti Designs]

So if I understand the question, it's "what do you think about bike performance based on frame material, wheels, tires, other parts and color?". I guess anything that doesn't deal with Lance is a good topic, so here goes.

Blue is a very strong color. If you weigh too much or you tend to abuse your frame, blue is the color for you. Also, if you break a frame and have it repaired, have it painted blue. If you break a blue frame and have it repaired, have it painted a deeper shade of blue, or take up golf.

Red is the color of speed, it's fast. If you're a skinny fast guy, a blue bike will just slow you down, red is the only color that's going to keep up. With speed there is also danger, most of that involves having a bike that screams "I'm fast" with a less-than-fast rider on it.

Black is stealth, almost transparent in all but the brightest conditions - and damn hard to find in a poorly lit basement. It says nothing, adds or subtracts nothing but hints that there's danger in the unknown. Always beware of skinny guys on black bikes.

Pink says one thing but means another (good color for an election year). It says cute and girlie, and in many cases that's just what it means. Under the cuteness and girlieness it's really saying "I can still rip your legs off", so don't be fooled.

Orange - there are two oranges really. There's burnt orange. Burnt orange goes back to the racing days of Eddy Merckx, it says "I'm one of the hard men of cycling", it climbs, it sprints, it does cobbles... Never piss off someone on a burnt orange bike. Then there's bright orange, made famous as of late by Orbea. For some reason it's the one bike color that requires the rider to wear the full orange kit (including socks), any you can never be thin enough to pull off that look.

White. I don't know what to say about white, it's like a blank piece of paper that you can write what you want on it. Whatever else a white bike is saying, it's also telling the rest of the world that you spend way too much time cleaning your bike, or that you don't.

A few tips about colors of other bits on the bike:

Tires - they come in all sorts of colors these days. Most of the same rules still hold, blue tires are strong, red ones are fast. If you're going to mix red and blue, always put the blue tire on back, otherwise the bike will only go backwards.

Tape - this is complicated. In this case, black is strong. With use other colors get stronger (it's called dirt). White tape says many of the same things a white wedding dress says - I'll leave it at that.

Shorts - white shorts should be banned.

[rwsaunders]

About two weeks ago, I took a first ride on an older steel Strong that is new to me. Sloping top tube, longer stem and shorter chainstays, all of which I am not used to on my two other bikes, which are steel and titanium, both with carbon forks.

The first thing that I noticed was that the Strong was easy to climb with. Trust me, it's not the cyclist. All three have 52/39 cranks with a 12-27 cassette, wheels are pretty standard OP, but I definately noticed that I was more efficient in climbing some decent hills. That's not my major objective when riding a bike, though. I'm looking for a blend of efficiency, handling and comfort.

Is it the sloping top tube, shorter stays? I don't know. In terms of comfort, hands down the titanium, but that could be a number of factors. If anybody can translate your bike design goals, I'd have to believe that it would be Dave. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Gummee]

Get one of each: Fe, AL, Ti, CF

Then you can compare as much as you like.

I've BTDT and can tell you that it really depends on the bikes themselves too. If you take my E5 S-Works and compare it to a buddy's Caadwhatever, the S-Works is going to ride much 'nicer.' It rode like an SL steel bike, but lighter.

Having owned a Roubaix, I can tell you that something THAT stiff shouldn't ride that nicely. :nah I didn't believe the hype till I took it home from the shop where I was working. Magic carpet. :nod If you ride chip seal and/or nasty roads lots, I highly recommend one. Only thing better may be that new Trek.

Right now I have a Gunnar Crosshairs, a Van Dessel Full Tilt Boogie, and a Quattro Assi Team Y2K in the garage. The FTB is the stiffest and snappiest, followed by the QA, then the Crosshairs. I'll toss on a set of road wheels and ride either the FTB or the QA on long-ish road rides. If I'm hitting gravel roads I'll take out the Crosshairs.

AFA the Guru vs Kirk question: that's a hard choice. If you've got the $ do both is probably the best bet.

M

[tv_vt]

Matt,

Go back to Drummonds (or the Bike Hub, or wherever) and pick up a pair of Continental 4000s tires, either in 23 or 25mm and get those suckers on your rims. You don't need those gatorskins in the Upper Valley unless you're riding dirt roads all the time!

You will be amazed at the difference.

Cheers,

Thom

[Chance]

I had a Lemond Zurich before I converted to carbon fiber bikes. Maybe around 19 lbs? New bike around 16ish?

As all know, I'm a big believer in CF vs. steel when it comes to comfort - vibrations are transmitted in a very different way that my senses like better.

I think those wheels are pretty close, the fork really should not be a big difference in comfort, the post no way, the tires absolutely (PSI?) and the frame material for sure. Tires 1, frame 2, the rest, not so much. Change the tires on your current bike and fix flats a bit more often - worth it. Buy tires from England.

Agree with you on carbon fiber as being more comfortable for the most part. However, must disagree with seat post not making a difference at all. In some cases like described in OP it can be quite significant. Probably not as important as tires but noticeable nonetheless.

It’s not flex in the seat post itself that makes much difference but the fact that he is comparing a very short post (stated less than a fist full) and with no setback against one with two fist full and setback. This significant difference in length and total effective setback will load any frame very differently and cause much more frame give.

Just like a compact frame which yields a longer seat post (everything else being equal) rides marginally smoother, if you want to test an “inferior” set up just slide your seat post as far down as possible to test how the bike rolls over poor pavement. Even if you can’t pedal the bike, you should be able to feel the difference on your butt right away.

[MattTuck]

Matt,

Go back to Drummonds (or the Bike Hub, or wherever) and pick up a pair of Continental 4000s tires, either in 23 or 25mm and get those suckers on your rims. You don't need those gatorskins in the Upper Valley unless you're riding dirt roads all the time!

You will be amazed at the difference.

Cheers,

Thom

I have no idea why this thread was reanimated today, as I thought the comments were pretty comprehensive the first time around. I am currently riding 28mm gatorskins, which have really mellowed out the ride. I have been riding a lot of dirt lately. On saturday, I rode from Canaan, up Goosepond, and a a few of the dirt roads around Goosepond, then up Wolfsboro, Tunis, back to enfield on Moose Mountain Road.

The only flat I've gotten this year on the dirt has been my own stupid error, as I had the pressure too low and got the first pinch flat of my life, coming down Cambell Flats Road on some bumpy dirt.

Of course, I did break 2 spokes this year before getting the wheel rebuilt.

[skijoring]

I have no idea why this thread was reanimated today, as I thought the comments were pretty comprehensive the first time around. I am currently riding 28mm gatorskins, which have really mellowed out the ride. I have been riding a lot of dirt lately. On saturday, I rode from Canaan, up Goosepond, and a a few of the dirt roads around Goosepond, then up Wolfsboro, Tunis, back to enfield on Moose Mountain Road.

The only flat I've gotten this year on the dirt has been my own stupid error, as I had the pressure too low and got the first pinch flat of my life, coming down Cambell Flats Road on some bumpy dirt.

Of course, I did break 2 spokes this year before getting the wheel rebuilt.

So funny, I was on a bunch of those roads on Saturday with another fellow forumite. Great riding in the Upper Valley...Up or down, not much flat. :banana:

[cmg]

tires and wheels contribute the most. any light combo will improve the ride. Try to get the light weight nearest the rim. a light rim with a light tire/inner tube combo and paper thin rim tape. alpha q 340, AC sprint 350 or Kinin xr200 are all really light rims, just use enough spokes and they'll build into a easy spinning wheelset.

The geometry difference between the Lemond and the Guru is really all about top tube lenght and seat angle with the Lemond having slightly more slack. the use of a zero setback post suggests that YOU might have a better fit on the Guru. the questions then become about fit, are the saddles in the same position in relation to BB, are the bars the same distance with the same drop from the saddle and are the bars the same distance from the floor (relates to BB drop)? were they the same frame size?

[Fixed]

"Yesterday is tomorrow's worst enemy" Frank cannon quote

Guru is a cool


Canadian Company making modern bikes
IMHO
Cheers

[brando]

Pink says one thing but means another (good color for an election year). It says cute and girlie, and in many cases that's just what it means. Under the cuteness and girlieness it's really saying "I can still rip your legs off", so don't be fooled.

Orange - there are two oranges really. There's burnt orange. Burnt orange goes back to the racing days of Eddy Merckx, it says "I'm one of the hard men of cycling", it climbs, it sprints, it does cobbles... Never piss off someone on a burnt orange bike. Then there's bright orange, made famous as of late by Orbea. For some reason it's the one bike color that requires the rider to wear the full orange kit (including socks), any you can never be thin enough to pull off that look.

White. Whatever else a white bike is saying, it's also telling the rest of the world that you spend way too much time cleaning your bike, or that you don't.

Ha, good stuff. these were my favorites. I often think about what other riders bike colors are saying when I'm out riding.

[palincss]

Question: If you had to attribute the contribution of each of the 5 items listed to the total difference in ride quality, how would you do it?


Channeling e-Richie for a moment, I think it's the gestalt-mo.

[Bob Loblaw]

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, especially the OP, but I owned a Lemond Buenes Ares for a few years, kissing cousin to the Zurich, and I disliked it. I'm a fan of steel bikes, have owned a succession of them, and that Lemond was my least favorite bike, or at least in the bottom two. I found it sluggish and ill-handling relative to just about everything else I have ridden.

So there may be some of that at play as well. I strongly suspect that custom steelie you're waiting for will be dramatically better in just about every respect.

My last thought is, there are really no wrong answers in picking a bike. Modern performance bikes are all so good, if you get the right size it's hard to go too far wrong.

Good luck.

BL

[Charles M]

If you want better perspective, stop reading peoples guesses...

Take the wheels off your old bike and ride em on the Guru...

You'll see what the difference is and you can let us know.




I use the sames wheels, tires and tire pressure on everything I test.

Tires and wheels are a big part but WAY,WAY,WAY not the only part.

And it's not down to carbon versus steel. That's overly simple because there are ***** steel bikes and ***** carbon bikes. It's frame versus frame and the differences can be BIG.

[Ti Designs]

Take the wheels off your old bike and ride em on the Guru...

But what if the colors are all wrong?

[zap]

But what if the colors are all wrong?

nothing like a blind test