OT: CAR HYBRID OWNERS speak up

[Smiley]

Just found out I can order a Ford C Max hybrid and now I want to know from you, the enlightened hybrid owner your thoughts on your Hybrid car....would you buy another one, how much do you like your hybrid


NEWS FLASH gas is creaping back up again, what gives.

[tannhauser]

Lots of friends have them, love them.

If you must beta test a brand new car and have the latest and greatest to save a handful of dollars on gas and have a conversation piece that is your prerogative.

Otherwise I really don't see the point.

[roguedog]

HA! I thought you were asking for peeps who have hybrid bikes! ROFL

I had to click to see WTH...

[Smiley]

Lots of friends have them, love them.

If you must beta test a brand new car and have the latest and greatest to save a handful of dollars on gas and have a conversation piece that is your prerogative.

Otherwise I really don't see the point.

Tann,
They said the same thing about my PV roof panels too. I am laughing so hard about my savings

Last July which hottest on record I sucked up from the grid 2200 kwh and so far this month WHICH is the Hottest July since last July I am at less than 1100 KWH. :banana:

[MattTuck]

yeah, thought this was about hybrid bikes, too.

agree with tann's perspective. Don't be a guinea pig.

[torquer]

Certainly not an owner (probably not enlightenened, either), but I can Google with the best of 'em:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/04/hybrid-car-owners-not-loyal-to-technology/
Once you “go hybrid,” it seems you can turn back after all. Only 35 percent of hybrid car owners bought a hybrid again when they purchased a new vehicle in 2011, according to a report by automotive research group Polk.

But some regions of the country showed a surprisingly higher level of loyalty to hybrid cars, like West Palm Beach, Fla., and Phoenix, than other parts of the U.S. Hybrid cars couple a traditional gasoline engine with a battery pack to boost mileage.

The report was based on Polk’s analysis of new vehicle registrations of 75,000 hybrid owners who returned to market to purchase a new vehicle last year. The new purchases either replaced the previous hybrid or added to a household fleet.

If repurchase behavior among Toyota Prius owners isn’t factored in, hybrid loyalty dropped to under 25 percent. In March, Prius sales made up just under half of the hybrid market, Hybridcars.com reported.

[tannhauser]

Tann,
They said the same thing about my PV roof panels too. I am laughing so hard about my savings

Last July which hottest on record I sucked up from the grid 2200 kwh and so far this month WHICH is the Hottest July since last July I am at less than 1100 KWH. :banana:

I'm all on board with the PV panels and hybrids/e-cars, but I'm saying to realize savings you have to do the math including initial investment in the tech, that's all.

Solar energy systems were about $30-40k around here as recently as 3 yrs. ago when I went shopping.

[tannhauser]

Certainly not an owner (probably not enlightenened, either), but I can Google with the best of 'em:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/04/hybrid-car-owners-not-loyal-to-technology/
Once you “go hybrid,” it seems you can turn back after all. Only 35 percent of hybrid car owners bought a hybrid again when they purchased a new vehicle in 2011, according to a report by automotive research group Polk.

But some regions of the country showed a surprisingly higher level of loyalty to hybrid cars, like West Palm Beach, Fla., and Phoenix, than other parts of the U.S. Hybrid cars couple a traditional gasoline engine with a battery pack to boost mileage.

The report was based on Polk’s analysis of new vehicle registrations of 75,000 hybrid owners who returned to market to purchase a new vehicle last year. The new purchases either replaced the previous hybrid or added to a household fleet.

If repurchase behavior among Toyota Prius owners isn’t factored in, hybrid loyalty dropped to under 25 percent. In March, Prius sales made up just under half of the hybrid market, Hybridcars.com reported.

Part of this is due, no doubt, to seeing much higher efficiencies in gasoline-powered engines.

Plus people actually do like a little power too.

[Karin Kirk]

NEWS FLASH gas is creaping back up again, what gives.

Umm - it's a finite resource. The price may go down here and there but overall it's going nowhere but up. Best to be prepared for the inevitable (which is exactly what you are doing) rather than complaining a lot when the inevitable occurs.

Nice work on your solar panels, by the way! :hello:

[zap]

Umm - it's a finite resource.

Supply is not an issue. Reserves are ever growing.

Lack of refining capabilities on the east coast of the USA plus maybe the price of ethanol probably have more to do with rising costs in the D.C. metro area.

[eddief]

http://www.triplepundit.com/2012/07/ford-launches-new-c-max-energi-hybrid-plug-in-ev/

[saab2000]

My brother just purchased a new Camry Hybrid to replace his 15-year old Camry. He's getting about 40 mpg on mostly 'urban' driving. His commute is from East Falls Church into the District with some running around and errands. If he hasn't told me directly, I'd say the biggest benefit is time saved. He fills up about half as often as he used to. And gas stations in that area are often crowded and a PITA to get in and out of. That by itself is a benefit. But the lower cash outlay each month for gas is a neat thing too, he reports. He expects to own the car long enough to recoup his investment.

He is satisfied.

The one negative to the Camry is the lack of a fold down rear seat. That would be a deal breaker for me but then I would also look at the Prius, which ought to have more usable interior space for a cyclist.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have been a Toyota fan for years, but their new cars are so unispiring. They are just boring and unattractive. I wish they would stop sleeping at the wheel and make a good looking car again.



My brother just purchased a new Camry Hybrid to replace his 15-year old Camry. He's getting about 40 mpg on mostly 'urban' driving. His commute is from East Falls Church into the District with some running around and errands. If he hasn't told me directly, I'd say the biggest benefit is time saved. He fills up about half as often as he used to. And gas stations in that area are often crowded and a PITA to get in and out of. That by itself is a benefit. But the lower cash outlay each month for gas is a neat thing too, he reports. He expects to own the car long enough to recoup his investment.

He is satisfied.

The one negative to the Camry is the lack of a fold down rear seat. That would be a deal breaker for me but then I would also look at the Prius, which ought to have more usable interior space for a cyclist.

[67-59]

I agree with the sentiment against being a guinea pig. I bought a Prius just last year, in part because they were well established as a fuel-efficient and reliable vehicle. I wouldn't have done it if reliability was still unproven.

Will I buy another hybrid? Maybe. I like having Toyota reliability and getting around 50 mpg, but it's possible that other technologies will be just as efficient (and perhaps more powerful) by then. But if hybrid still seems like the most efficient option -- yes, I'd buy another.

One feature they put in the Prius that I wish was in every car is the guage that shows real-time estimated mpg. I know it's just an estimate, but I find myself going a bit lighter on the pedal to see the mpg going up. I used to speed a lot more; now I usually go closer to the speed limit because I get real-time feedback on what speeding does to fuel economy. Imagine a world in which all the Hummers and other SUVs actually went the speed limit....:hello:

[saab2000]

I have been a Toyota fan for years, but their new cars are so unispiring. They are just boring and unattractive. I wish they would stop sleeping at the wheel and make a good looking car again.

It is extremely unexciting. But he has never looked at a vehicle as anything more than an appliance that needs to work when he goes out in the morning and not cost him an arm and a leg over the years. I can respect that.

Boring? Yes.
Stupid to own? Probably not so much.

[67-59]

I have been a Toyota fan for years, but their new cars are so unispiring. They are just boring and unattractive. I wish they would stop sleeping at the wheel and make a good looking car again.

I didn't pick my car to be inspired. That's what bikes are for.:banana:

[thwart]

Imagine a world in which all the Hummers and other SUVs actually went the speed limit....:hello:

Naw, they serve as good drafting targets.

We've got a 3 mo old Prius V. Impressive car. Getting 49 mpg with mixed city and 70-75 mph highway miles, and a nice, quiet and relaxed car to drive. Decent passing power on 2-lane roads. Two road bikes fit in back with front wheels on, and still room for luggage.

Yep, it's great fun to pull behind the Hummers and Escalades and watch the average mpg go up. Money in my pocket...

Wheel-sucker never sounded so good.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is extremely unexciting. But he has never looked at a vehicle as anything more than an appliance that needs to work when he goes out in the morning and not cost him an arm and a leg over the years. I can respect that.

Boring? Yes.
Stupid to own? Probably not so much.

I understand, but there are many cars now which can do both. I really like what Ford is doing, Edge, Fusion, Focus...great cars with good styling and efficiency.

I agree though.

[rice rocket]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badoMjA_rW0

False economy.:bike:

[thwart]

False economy.:bike:

Yeah. The average M3 owner gets 49 mpg.

But... 'm' is for meters... :rolleyes:

[Chance]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=badoMjA_rW0

False economy.:bike:


The video makes a dumb comparison and even dumber conclusion.

A hybrid powertrain is designed specifically to improve fuel economy at very low average power demands, like when driving around town. Asking the Prius to run flat out negates everything it is designed to do.

[mvrider]

I picked up my Prius Plug-In in April, and love it so far. It is an extremely boring car to drive (my previous was a 2008 Subaru Outback XT with manual tranny), but it really works, and I can still throw my bike in the back. I get 52-53 mpg on every tank, with a 60-mile roundtrip commute. I even had a custom 2" receiver hitch installed for my Thule T2 rack, so in a pinch I could even haul 3 bikes.

The kicker is being able to use the HOV lanes for my commute: it has made a marked improvement in my quality of life.

My friends with Prii swear by them: they are extremly reliable. One with 150k miles on his still gets 55 mpg per tank, though he commute has more city streets and less freeway than mine.

The Ford C Max looks really nice! Good luck with it!

[tele]

We have had a Altima hybrid since 2008 and have enjoyed it. Friends of ours have a Camry hybrid since 2007 and no problems either but the Altima is a better driving car. As far as the mileage: high 30s to low 40s depending on summer/winter tires and if we brought it to the mountains etc....

The lack of rear fold down seat is a pita as is the limited trunk space for the battery. Would we buy another? Probably not--I love my Jetta Wagen tdi which gets in the 40s easily with more room. If they bring over the Passat wagon tdi then bobs yer uncle!

[alancw3]

If they bring over the Passat wagon tdi then bobs yer uncle![/QUOTE]

yep me to. whenever i take my beetle convertible in for service i keep asking about the passat tdi wagon. that wagon is sweet imho!

[rwsaunders]

I've learned to minimize the emotional factor when searching for a vehicle. Fuel economy is one issue, but maintenance, repairs and insurance can quickly negate any mileage benefits on some vehicles. The Edmunds site has a "True Cost to Own" (TCO) calculator which can be quite helpful.

http://www.edmunds.com/tco.html

[saab2000]

If they bring over the Passat wagon tdi then bobs yer uncle!

yep me to. whenever i take my beetle convertible in for service i keep asking about the passat tdi wagon. that wagon is sweet imho![/QUOTE]

VW has a serious supply issue with their diesels. My neighbor just bought a Passat. He wanted a diesel. They couldn't deliver in a reasonable time. He bought the gas model.

They have a very desirable car with all their diesel models and need to bring the GTD over from Europe.

The market is ready to buy these things.

[alancw3]

if i were buying a hybrid it would only be a plugin. imho it just makes since for all the trips that don't require a fossil fuel engine startup. but hey that is just me and my average trips. everyone has to do their own math.

[bocarider]

I have 4.5 years and 68,000 miles into my Camry Hybrid and I am very happy with the car. I got it when I changed law firms and had to commute from Boca Raton to downtown Fort Lauderdale, 25 miles each way, with a good stretch of that on I-95. Interestingly enough, my primary motivation for getting the hybrid car was not the gas efficiency (which does not suck at between 37-40 mpg). In Florida, hybrid cars are permitted in the HOV/carpool lane with a solo driver, which is a huge benefit of the car and totally worth it to me to pay the slight premium you pay for the Hybrid car. Most mornings I fly by the crawling traffic in the 4 right lanes which makes my 45 minute commute bearable. Plus, it’s a pretty nice car to drive - not the coolest or most luxurious, but perfectly fine for commuting.

[djdj]

Smiley,

We have a Lexus 450h. My wife loves it (I use my MINI). The mileage is not quite what you might expect. The EPA "city" test is more forgiving than stop and go through B-CC. We have overall mileage of 26 after a few years of city and hiway (mostly city), which is a bit lower than the EPA city rating of 27, iirc. If you hang on to the car for many years as we usually do, the economics can be a wash, plus you are generating less carbon emission, etc.

[zap]

One lady that works for us owns an original Prius.

I'm impressed that the original batteries still function though no longer come close to delivering the mileage when it was newer. I think she said her Prius currently gets 35mpg in suburban driving.

The rest of her car is less toyota like in terms of reliability but still, nothing like the cars in the 80's or earlier.

My father in law owns a '08 Prius and likes it for the mileage it gets and has been reliable.

[Dave B]

Here is a great review on hybrids. It helped me make an informed decision to buy my car. I am better for it.


http://www.gearsgarage.com/video/video/&v=117788027992

[rice rocket]

The video makes a dumb comparison and even dumber conclusion.

A hybrid powertrain is designed specifically to improve fuel economy at very low average power demands, like when driving around town. Asking the Prius to run flat out negates everything it is designed to do.

It is of course, Jeremy Clarkson, whose opinion should always be taken with a grain of salt.

However, the point about it causing more environmental damage than a Land Rover is pretty true. Strip mining for raw nickel, the process to refine it, etc. pretty much outweighs any benefit it might ever have.

People should really continue driving their old, beat up cars, despite getting relatively terrible MPG; it still isn't thousands of pounds of raw material that needs to be processed and refined...but we're too much of a consumer whore society to actually do such a thing.

[Sheldon4209]

I bought a Toyota Prius in Feb. of this year and it now has 10 K miles. The milage is in the low to mid 50s. I can put my tandem bike in the back (with wheels off) and drive for half the gas of my van. I don't know why but I find it a fun car to drive. In some ways it is like driving a video game with the info on the dash.
I live outside of Indy and a round trip into town is 40 - 50 miles. It is nice to go into town on a gallon of gas or less. Is it saving money? I don't know but I see many Prius taxis in large cities. The Prius is my third Toyota and they have been the most reliable cars I have ever owned.

[Chance]

It is of course, Jeremy Clarkson, whose opinion should always be taken with a grain of salt.

However, the point about it causing more environmental damage than a Land Rover is pretty true. Strip mining for raw nickel, the process to refine it, etc. pretty much outweighs any benefit it might ever have.

People should really continue driving their old, beat up cars, despite getting relatively terrible MPG; it still isn't thousands of pounds of raw material that needs to be processed and refined...but we're too much of a consumer whore society to actually do such a thing.

Agree.

My point for the longest time has been that if Toyota made the Prius in a non-hybrid model they would not sell many Hybrid Prius. A lot of the MPG Prius get is from low performance (small engine), high-strength light-weight structure, very good aerodynamics, light wheels, skinny low-resistance tires, and so on. If they left all of that in place and replaced the drivetrain with a conventional gasoline engine to have similar acceleration, the difference in average MPG would be so low most people wouldn't pay the premium for hybrid. City driving would still be much better, but highway wouldn't be too different.

Just look at new gasoline cars that top 40 MPG highway and can out-accelerate a Prius. Fuel savings if compared between 40 and 50 MPG isn't much. Hybrids make much more sense for those who drive in heavy traffic. For me, a Prius would have little value because avoiding traffic is at the top of my list.

[tannhauser]

Agree.

My point for the longest time has been that if Toyota made the Prius in a non-hybrid model they would not sell many Hybrid Prius. A lot of the MPG Prius get is from low performance (small engine), high-strength light-weight structure, very good aerodynamics, light wheels, skinny low-resistance tires, and so on. If they left all of that in place and replaced the drivetrain with a conventional gasoline engine to have similar acceleration, the difference in average MPG would be so low most people wouldn't pay the premium for hybrid. City driving would still be much better, but highway wouldn't be too different.

Just look at new gasoline cars that top 40 MPG highway and can out-accelerate a Prius. Fuel savings if compared between 40 and 50 MPG isn't much. Hybrids make much more sense for those who drive in heavy traffic. For me, a Prius would have little value because avoiding traffic is at the top of my list.

Toyota continues to make the Yaris, which gets 36 or so on the hwy and is kind of a "dumb" Prius but I agree the savings are had in urban environments primarily.

That and no one wants the downmarket Yaris; class considerations are important, after all.

[Don49]

I have 50k on a 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid 4wd, purchased new. Overall mpg is low 30's, not too bad for a 4wd SUV and double the mileage of the S10 Blazer it was to replace. Doing it again, I'd go for the much higher mileage of a Prius and also get a used Toyota 4wd PU for those missions that require a PU/SUV.

My favorite feature of the hybrid is the feel of the regenerative braking, kind of like driving a large golf cart.

Another overlooked hybrid advantage is the extended oil change interval (12 mo/10k miles), no need for a conventional 12vdc battery, essentially lifetime brake pads (mine are 10% down at 50k miles).

What has severely tainted my ownership experience has been the almost criminally inept service by the local Ford dealership. Yes, this was my first and last Ford product. Although the 2013 turbocharged Escape looks interesting, I'm back to Subaru for the next one.

[saab2000]

Speaking of Prius taxies.....

I take a taxi every once in a while to the airport in DC from the East Falls Church area. Sometimes it is in a Camry Hybrid. They have told me that their gas consumption has been cut down by about 2/3 over the old Crown Vics they used to use and one I was in about 4 or 5 months ago had over 200,000 miles on it and looked good. The guy told me the only significant repair he had was a new water pump. Pretty solid.

Cabs and other fleets are excellent places for new technologies to be developed. An example of where the Volt drivetrain should be used would be in fleet vehicles for cities and utilities and possibly for someone like UPS or FedEx. They WILL be joining the high efficiency vehicle world sooner rather than later.

[gregj]

I've had a Prius since 2003. I'm not that into cars (thankfully, otherwise I'd have 8+ cars instead of bikes), and I think of them as a means to an end. I have just over 60K miles on the Prius, and I haven't had any problems with it. So when I buy the next car, which will be still a few years down the road, I expect I'll buy another hybrid, assuming they make one in the size/type of car I need. With growing kids and the attendant gear, I think I would need something a little bigger, maybe like a RAV4 or Honda CR-V, and if they made a hybrid version of those, I'd get it in a heartbeat. Or if Honda reintroduces the Element with a hybrid engine.

I know the argument that it's more environmentally conscious to keep on driving your old car than to buy a new car, no matter how green it is. But that is not addressing the right issue. You're talking to people who would buy a new car every X years regardless, and if the choice is between buying a new car that gets 25 mpg and a new car that gets 45 mpg, then the fuel efficient car is the sensible choice. Also, car companies are continuing to R&D better batteries, so newer generations will be greener hopefully. (What I do object to is the use of efficient fuel systems to get a more powerful 25 mpg car rather than a 45 mpg car.)

[Jason E]

I just crossed 2 of years of 'ownership' on a Fusion Hybrid that is a company car. After 54,000 miles my average mpg is right at 40.1. That's not the best or the worst, but it is a Fusion first, a hybrid as a market response, which I think makes it a reasonable to good mpg.

I like the comfort. They got the nicer trim package to encourage other executive level personnel into more fuel efficient vehicles. It has the sync and all of that... It also has an AC plug in the back of the center console, which is a nice little feature.

It is NOT my '06 A4 Avant manual-6 2.0L, but very few things are. Due to liability, we shifted policy about a year ago and this October I will be phasing out of a corporate vehicle when one of my sales guys cars gets aged out. He'll get mine and I'll get an allowance.

Top contenders are not hybrids, though the eco-boost and TDI are on the list.

[rugbysecondrow]

I bought a Toyota Prius in Feb. of this year and it now has 10 K miles. The milage is in the low to mid 50s. I can put my tandem bike in the back (with wheels off) and drive for half the gas of my van. I don't know why but I find it a fun car to drive. In some ways it is like driving a video game with the info on the dash.
I live outside of Indy and a round trip into town is 40 - 50 miles. It is nice to go into town on a gallon of gas or less. Is it saving money? I don't know but I see many Prius taxis in large cities. The Prius is my third Toyota and they have been the most reliable cars I have ever owned.


I say this not to pick on you but to make a point. I live 10 miles from the train I take to work, 20 miles round trip. If I have a car which gets 20-25 mpg, it is technically less efficient than a Prius, but we are both effectively consuming the same fuel daily. Where I live, I notice hybrid owners commuting from long distances to work. Sure, it is better to commute 1.5 hours in a car which gets 40-50 mpg, but not as good as be getting 25 MPG on my 20 mile trip. Owning a Prius does not automatically mean less consumption, it just means compared to what that individual might have consumed, it is possible less. I could drive a 10 MPG truck and still use less daily fuel than many "eco-commuters"

I am glad that people have a car which suits their lifestyle, but when people try to start apply judgements to their choices, well that is when you lose me. You are not doing this, but your example helped me make my point.

[palincss]

I would also look at the Prius, which ought to have more usable interior space for a cyclist.

I can tell you a Prius V with the back seat folded has enough space for a 60cm touring bike with racks and fenders, at least as much space as my 2003 BMW 525i Sportwagon.
I was riding by the Toyota dealer one day and I checked it out.

[KidWok]

Not a hybrid owner, but I do have to speak up as this is the other thing I'm passionate about besides bikes. I'm getting this (highway) using biodiesel in a non-modified vehicle, paying less per gallon than petro-diesel.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/302265_2676367276393_1844149027_n.jpg

My mom's garage (detached thankfully) burned down late last year and I gave her our gas guzzling Subie Forester turbo. It was a chance to get something more environmentally friendly and I took the time to do some research. We ended up checking out the Leaf, a Prius and a 2006.5 Jetta TDI. The Jetta won it hands down. It's fun to drive and I get about low 40's per gallon for all around driving, but can eek it up to 51 mpg (54 if I draft a big rig) on the freeway using B99 (99% biodiesel). I just tanked up (in Seattle) with B99 for $4.19 a gallon, which is about 20-30 cents less than petro-diesel.

Here's the thing that really won me over though...Fossil Energy Ratio (FER)...check out this article from the USADA (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:R3Jn25siBLkJ:www.usda.gov/oce/reports/energy/EnergyLifeCycleSoybeanBiodieseI6-11.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShW4pDWNbF0dCA1PWghCrH6-Y2aPEQpMxewa4X7-2pSX-3ETW63qRV_qtCyCXWcdSuWW_OT8e3sZE1lUL0wCa5jm5xsjQFS DYmr57VOutseVxQx1AYTJDX-E7qfFPMKcp8_uPTn&sig=AHIEtbQJXH0gamw3b0g_vuHL1ln-FFlgrg). Biodiesel made from soybean oil has a FER of 5+, meaning that it is producing 5 times the energy that is required to produce it. Compare that to a gallon of gasoline or petrodiesel, which actually requires more than one unit's worth of energy to get one unit's worth to the pump. Ethanol is actually a bit FER positive, but not by much.

Now...making BD from soy is actually not ideal. Soy oil was considered plentiful at the beginning of the BD boom because it was almost treated as a bi-product of making soy meal, which is used in large quantities for cattle feed. But there isn't enough land in the world to make using/growing soy-based BD practical, nor is using valuable food-generating agricultural capacity ideal for creating fuel.

Thankfully here in Seattle, we have plenty of waste vegetable oil (WVO) based BD, which has a MUCH higher FER simply because it was essentially a waste product at the end of its usable life cycle. Ultimately, that was the determining factor for getting a Jetta TDI over a hybrid. If we didn't have WVO BD easily accessible here, I wouldn't have felt as good about soy-based BD (but still better than using fossil fuels). So if you do a bit of research about BD availability in your area, you may find that finding a BD compatible vehicle is a more environmentally friendly and funner driving experience.

BUT WAIT! Unfortunately not all diesel vehicles are BD compatible. Older vehicles may not have the right rubber compound of hoses and seals, but could be retrofitted. Diesel passenger cars built 2007 and after may use "clean diesel" systems that are not compatible with high-percentage BD because they have a "Diesel Particulate Filter" (DPF) which requires an extra shot of fuel squirted into the exhaust system that is ignited to incinerate soot (hence "Clean diesel". Mercedes uses something else, but I don't suspect most folks are looking to by a new Benz. BD has a higher flash point and does not ignite like petrodiesel. That led me to look for a 2006.5 and earlier VW TDI, which used the older diesel engine fully compatible with pure BD (heck...you could convert them to run straight WVO). The 2009 TDI with the same body as the 2006 uses the newer engine. You can tell the difference by looking at the "TDI" emblem...newer TDI's have the "I" in blue...no-go for high% BD. "2006.5" actually is a misnomer for 2007...VW got caught off-guard in late 2006 when CA updated their air-quality standards, making the TDI (using petro-diesel) non-compliant as of 2007. As a result, VW ramped up production and cranked out extra TDI's that carried over into 2007, all of which were sold as "2006" but if you look at the owner's manual, it says 2007.

SO...if you can find BD in your area...and it is WVO BD and not soy or other "virgin stock" oils...and you can find a nice 2006.5 or earlier VW TDI (I got lucky and found a low-mileage Package 2, which is darn near luxurious), you CAN have a fun-driving car that is more environmentally friendly than even the most gas-sipping hybrids. You can feel good knowing that even if you drive like a bat out of hell, your carbon (and various other pollutants) footprint is MUCH lower.

One drawbacks...BD's higher gel-point means you could have a tank full of glop in the winter if it gets too cold, but most BD retailer will blend in a percentage of petrodiesel in the winter to counteract. I don't mind running B75 in the winter.

Tai

[thwart]

I can tell you a Prius V with the back seat folded has enough space for a 60cm touring bike with racks and fenders, at least as much space as my 2003 BMW 525i Sportwagon.
I was riding by the Toyota dealer one day and I checked it out.
Oh, yeah, and with room to spare.

Cool info directly above on the biodiesel. Thanks!

[Andrewlcox]

I have a 2012 Prius v wagon and love it. The interior is huge and the car is so quiet especially when the engine turns off at stop lights.

I don't know how well Ford's hybrid system works but Toyota does a great job.

Good luck in your search.

[djg]

Tann,
They said the same thing about my PV roof panels too. I am laughing so hard about my savings

Last July which hottest on record I sucked up from the grid 2200 kwh and so far this month WHICH is the Hottest July since last July I am at less than 1100 KWH. :banana:

Smiley

I'm not saying that there are not good reasons to look at hybrid cars. Not at all. But as for the savings, you could set an optimistic goal by asking yourself how much you might save, per year, if the price of gas were to double. Of course a stable doubling of prices might be a long way off -- even if we have familiar short-term summer price spikes as well as other peaks, but let's say "double." How long does it take for you to fill the price gap to an otherwise acceptable vehicle? Before you count the time value of money, etc., just keeping it simple. It might be a while -- maybe a long while -- especially if satisfactory substitute vehicles are at the relatively efficient end of the gas-powered spectrum.

[SPOKE]

Any tax payer subsidies available for hybrid cars?

[Brian Smith]

Any tax payer subsidies available for hybrid cars?

Big deductions are available if they're heavy enough. I'm not sure if Smiley wants to save money, save emissions, or save life with this car purchase, perhaps he could buy a business-use hybrid vehicle and benefit from the deduction.

[Ti Designs]

Can anyone explain to me why individuals getting from point A to point B need a two ton vehicle? In 1991 Honda made the CRX HF which gets almost the mileage of the Prius, has at least twice the service life and was fun to drive.

I driver a 1950 pound CRX Si with an aftermarket turbo and nitrous oxide injection. If I drive like I own a Prius I get 40 MPG. If I'm having fun I'll get 25 MPG. It's a single seater, I can fit any bike I own inside, including my tandem.

[Ramjm_2000]

yep me to. whenever i take my beetle convertible in for service i keep asking about the passat tdi wagon. that wagon is sweet imho!

VW has a serious supply issue with their diesels. My neighbor just bought a Passat. He wanted a diesel. They couldn't deliver in a reasonable time. He bought the gas model.

They have a very desirable car with all their diesel models and need to bring the GTD over from Europe.

The market is ready to buy these things.[/QUOTE]

Count me in that group as well. I'm currently in the 2.0T with the sport package and 18" Samarkand Wheels. I love everything about that car but if it were a TDI I'd be in heaven. Rumor a few months ago is that VW America is considering bring back the varien/wagon in the US model with TDI....fingers crossed.

[Chance]

Can anyone explain to me why individuals getting from point A to point B need a two ton vehicle? In 1991 Honda made the CRX HF which gets almost the mileage of the Prius, has at least twice the service life and was fun to drive.

I driver a 1950 pound CRX Si with an aftermarket turbo and nitrous oxide injection. If I drive like I own a Prius I get 40 MPG. If I'm having fun I'll get 25 MPG. It's a single seater, I can fit any bike I own inside, including my tandem.

Looked it up and you are right, the CR-X was an impressive car for economy for its age. Even by today’s standard. Found the HF model with 1500 engine was rated up to 41 city and 50 highway based on new EPA rating system (based on Wikipedia). What seems odd is that typical new A-segment cars like Smart, Scion iQ, Chevrolet Spark or Fiat 500 don’t improve on these numbers significantly after 20+ years. Actually not at all. Granted some are a little heavier but even the highway ratings don’t come close. The Spark, with a 1200 engine and at less than 2300 pounds is only rated at 32 city and 38 MPG highway. The real difference must be that these new cars are so much taller to give them an SUV feel that it kills highway economy. Don’t know what else it could be because new engines are more efficient than back when Honda made the CR-X.

[tannhauser]

Can anyone explain to me why individuals getting from point A to point B need a two ton vehicle? In 1991 Honda made the CRX HF which gets almost the mileage of the Prius, has at least twice the service life and was fun to drive.

I driver a 1950 pound CRX Si with an aftermarket turbo and nitrous oxide injection. If I drive like I own a Prius I get 40 MPG. If I'm having fun I'll get 25 MPG. It's a single seater, I can fit any bike I own inside, including my tandem.

I drove my sister's old crx si a bit -- a lot of fun, great gas mileage.

Answer to your question: ego.

[rugbysecondrow]

I drove my sister's old crx si a bit -- a lot of fun, great gas mileage.

Answer to your question: ego.

I disagree...Americans have always had big cars.

Just a quick photo array. People complain about our love affair with SUV's, but are they really that much bigger than cars back in the day or just taller?

Some photos from each decade 1960's-2012.

[tannhauser]

I disagree...Americans have always had big cars.

Just a quick photo array. People complain about our love affair with SUV's, but are they really that much bigger than cars back in the day or just taller?

Some photos from each decade 1960's-2012.

Americans have always had big egos too!

SUVs are taller to give the driver some empowerment or feeling of it. We all have friends who have said, "I feel so vulnerable in a car. I need something taller."

[rugbysecondrow]

Americans have always had big egos too!

SUVs are taller to give the driver some empowerment or feeling of it. We all have friends who have said, "I feel so vulnerable in a car. I need something taller."

Vulnerable is not the same as ego, but you are right.

Yes, there was something about a man driving a big caddy or bringing home that big ol' Chevy. There was a sense of pride or arrival in that car. Cars and the emotional value individuals place in them is hard to overcome. Our roadway system lent it self to cruisers, touring cars and other big machines. Some of that is rebounding and will find its level, but some of the admonishment seems unfair, or at least historically inaccurate as it relates to the size of American autos.

I say this as somebody who is transitioning from a GMC Yukon to a 5dr Hatch. :)

[tannhauser]

Vulnerable is not the same as ego, but you are right.

Yes, there was something about a man driving a big caddy or bringing home that big ol' Chevy. There was a sense of pride or arrival in that car. Cars and the emotional value individuals place in them is hard to overcome. Our roadway system lent it self to cruisers, touring cars and other big machines. Some of that is rebounding and will find its level, but some of the admonishment seems unfair, or at least historically inaccurate as it relates to the size of American autos.

I say this as somebody who is transitioning from a GMC Yukon to a 5dr Hatch. :)

Yeah, I have 3 cars -- 2 I don't drive, one I haven't in 5 weeks until this morning. Kinda pisses me off that I had to, actually.

[Chance]

Americans purchased large cars and SUVs in large part because of perceived added safety. They feel safer and more importantly they feel their family members, particularly their kids, are safer in a 5000-pound SUV than a 2000 pound sub-compact.

If for some reason hybrids and or electric vehicles end up being less safe it would not surprise me if Americans stay away from them even if they get 200 MPG.

[tannhauser]

Americans purchased large cars and SUVs in large part because of perceived added safety. They feel safer and more importantly they feel their family members, particularly their kids, are safer in a 5000-pound SUV than a 2000 pound sub-compact.

If for some reason hybrids and or electric vehicles end up being less safe it would not surprise me if Americans stay away from them even if they get 200 MPG.

Safety ratings are a bit of a red herring, imo. Vehicles are compared to others in the same class but never is a Prius crashed into Yukon to determine relative safety.

I think if the safety institutes did so you'd see wide swings in sales favoring one or the other. And a lot of vehicle manufacturers lobbying against it.

[benb]

I really love how the oil investors/speculators/ceo types come out of the woodwork for these threads.

- It's not "beta testing" when they've been shipping these vehicles for 15 years. The Prius came out in 1997 in Japan and most everything is just an evolution of that. IIRC Ford added using the Atkinson cycle, but that's close to 10 years old now, and a lot of the rest of the improvements have just been software + tweaking gasoline engine vs. battery size.

- NiMH are not super toxic, etc.. and the batteries are fully recyclable (and they usually pay people to give them back if they die)

- You don't spray the battery chemistry out of the back of the car over it's service life like you do with the higher emissions of a bigger/dirtier vehicle (this is of course doubly so for true electric vehicles.)

- Hearing people say "You should buy a house closer to work rather than buying a more efficient vehicle" and at the same time saying "Buying Hybrids is not cost effective" is really amusing.

I don't own a hybrid but I feel kind of stupid still not owning one, their strength (sitting in traffic pleasantly without wasting tons of gas) basically lines up with my pain point, so I'm going to get one next time around.

[tannhauser]

I really love how the oil investors/speculators/ceo types come out of the woodwork for these threads.

- It's not "beta testing" when they've been shipping these vehicles for 15 years. The Prius came out in 1997 in Japan and most everything is just an evolution of that. IIRC Ford added using the Atkinson cycle, but that's close to 10 years old now, and a lot of the rest of the improvements have just been software + tweaking gasoline engine vs. battery size.

-

Since I'm the one who said "beta testing" you should know the context: I said it in reference to the cmax hybrid of Ford:

Hybrid and plug-in hybrid
Ford unveiled the Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid and the C-Max Hybrid at the 2011 North American International Auto Show, and both are expected to be released in North America and Europe


So yeah, it is basically a new package that has yet to work out its real-world bugs, as almost all new cars must. Chevy Volt anyone?

Thanks for your attitude though.

[rugbysecondrow]

I really love how the oil investors/speculators/ceo types come out of the woodwork for these threads.


I stopped reading here. If you need to insult others to make your point more valid it must not be a good point to begin with.

[benb]

It is hysterical how every thread target at current owners or people interesting in buying them becomes dominated by the same small group of naysayers who seem to have some kind of political axe to grind.

Do I have the attitude or do you two?

[rugbysecondrow]

It is hysterical how every thread target at current owners or people interesting in buying them becomes dominated by the same small group of naysayers who seem to have some kind of political axe to grind.

Do I have the attitude or do you two?

I have zero ax to grind, I haven't said anything against hybrids, at least I don't think I have? Sure, I think many of there owners are just as flip and self righteous as the hummer driving crowd, but that is not the hybrids fault.

What I dislike is the "we are doing right" mentality, when that may or may not be true. What I also dislike is false information or misleading folks about how we are driving worse cars, bigger cars, more obscene cars...that is just not true either. Of course, if you were born in 1989, sure things might seem bigger, but go back 5, 10, 15, 30, 50 years, there is some perspective. This all doesn't mean we stop trying to make better decisions, we can and we should. What we ought not do though is make decisions in a vacuum and disregard our individual behavior. I work from home half time, take the train 70% of the way to work the other half and I drive a vehicle that is less efficient than others. So? I have curbed my behavior so as to be less a burden, I am still doing my part by altering behavior considerably. I specifically moved 1 hour closer to towards the train for this purpose. Other people might mitigate their behavior by buying a more efficient vehicle. To me, that is a bandaid solution, it really doesn't get to the real issue which is usage. Long term, it is not sustainable, IMO. Lifestyles and behavior patterns need to change.

I am not a naysayer, I am the other side of the same coin friend. You should learn to distinguish between your enemies and allies in the fight.

[tannhauser]

It is hysterical how every thread target at current owners or people interesting in buying them becomes dominated by the same small group of naysayers who seem to have some kind of political axe to grind.

Do I have the attitude or do you two?

You do. I didn't say nay to the Prius, I said nay to beta testing but it's the individual's prerogative. Those were my exact terms.

What you did was come in, read all the responses and said, "You're all dumb. This is the way it is. I'm not going to respond to any individual points. I know everything."

So yeah, you are the one with the attitude; every one else is having a conversation politely. Everyone else. And no I don't know what you're talking about regarding politics. We're talking about cars.