OT: AND Speaking of Suspicious/Spoiler for swimmers

[1happygirl]

I am disillusioned. After all my growing up and the purity of sports, lately, it has been anything but.

Starting with Pete Rose and lately Joe Pa criminality and horrible atrocities, at least I thought the Olympics was safe. I guess not. I find it horrible that the first thing I think is Peds.
Swimming is a lot of upper body, right? My folks (women) faster than the guys? Come on, really? I guess I have been sheltered a lot.
Per Yahoo:

Controversy surrounds world-record 400 IM of China's 16-year-old Ye Shiwen

LONDON – She's 16 years old, and for 50 meters on Saturday night, she swam faster than U.S. superstar Ryan Lochte. And now China's Ye Shiwen is at the center of some controversial buzz at the Aquatics Center of these Olympic Games.
Shiwen smashed the world record in the women's 400-meter IM and took gold Saturday night, torching the final 100 meters in the event and coming from behind to beat U.S. 400 IM champion Elizabeth Beisel. Shiwen shaved more than a second off Australian Stephanie Rice's world record in her win, finishing at 4:28.43. But it was her final 100 meters – the freestyle leg of the event – that raised eyebrows. Not only did Shiwen go virtually stroke-for-stroke with Lochte – who had won gold in the men's 400 IM earlier in the night – she beat Lochte in the final 50 meters.
Shiwen went 28.93 in her final 50 and 58.68 in her final 100 of her 400 IM. Lochte went 29.10 in his final 50. And the final 100 meters of the pair? Lochte went 58.65 to Shiwen's 58.68. That was such intriguing fodder that when Lochte was in the mixed zone Sunday morning, he said Shiwen had been a topic of conversation the previous night.
[ Related: Ryan Lochte barred from wearing his American flag grill on medal stand ]
"We were all talking about that at dinner last night," Lochte said. "It was pretty impressive. And it was a female. She's fast. If she was there with me, I don't know, she might have beat me."
Added U.S. men's swimming coach Gregg Troy, "Heck of a swim. You notice stuff like that... You guys can do the research. I think that's probably the fastest women's split ever."
By Sunday morning, most had noticed. The stunning final 100 meters had multiple swim insiders privately questioning how Shiwen could have beaten Lochte in the last 50 meters or managed a virtual dead heat in the last 100. Particularly in such a grueling race. The buzz was so prevalent, SwimmingWorldMagazine.com blasted those who had been speculating about Shiwen.
"It was going to happen," the magazine said in a piece Sunday morning. "It was only a matter of when, and with how much force. Not minutes after Chinese youngster Ye Shiwen captured the gold medal in the 400 individual medley on the opening night of Olympic competition, accusations started to fly. You know the type. She must be doping.
"What a bloody shame."
Shiwen wasn't among the race favorites, yet she effectively peaked in the 400 IM on the Olympic stage despite never having won the event in a long-course international event. She also had never won a medal at a world championships prior to taking gold in the 200 IM in 2011.
[ Related: Empty seats at Olympic venues prompt investigation ]
Afterward, she called her win "A big step for Chinese swimming."
Shiwen and Beisel swam the two fastest times of the year in the 400 IM during their preliminary heats earlier in the day, with Beisel going 4:31.68 and Shiwen going 4:31.73.
Beisel appeared to have the event in hand in the closing 100 meters, but Shiwen thundered her way to the win, leaving Beisel a distant second, almost three seconds behind.
Fair or not, that final 100 meters has become a hot topic of conversation in the swimming community, particularly as the Chinese have once again flexed their power in the pool. Shiwen's teammate, Sun Yang, also captured gold in the 400-meter freestyle on Saturday, going a particularly fast second 200 meters and breaking Ian Thorpe's Olympic record with a 3:40.14.
While China is not alone amongst doping scandals, the country has been embarrassed by major documented revelations in the 1980s and 1990s. The doctor heading the Chinese Olympic team during many of those scandals, Chen Zhanghao, recently defended his country's actions, calling doping "widespread" during previous decades.
"The United States, the Soviet Union and France were all [doping] so we did as well," Chen told Australia's Sydney Morning Herald. "So how can you condemn China but not the USA or Soviet Union?"

[vav]

Germany pre - reunification all over again

[wc1934]

I am with you - this is from ESPN regarding keeper Hope Solo:

"Three weeks ago, she had what is believed to be the first positive drug test in the history of the U.S. women's soccer program, receiving a warning from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency.

She called the doping episode an "honest mistake" and said the positive test -- for the banned substance Canrenone -- resulted from a premenstrual medication prescribed by her doctor".

Is today's testing so sophisticated/sensitive or are banned substances in more products or are the athletes willing to try anything to gain an advantage?

[wc1934]

Urban legend?


"In 1995 a Chicago physician, Bob Goldman, asked 198 Olympic-level U.S. athletes whether they would be willing to take a banned substance if they were guaranteed to win and not get caught; 195 said yes. More than half said they would take the drug if it would enable them to win every competition for five years but then kill them".

[Fixed]

I hear you and Iam not arguing but swimming is one sport where the difference in times are the smallest between men and women ,I swam briefly at u.s.f. And the woman from u.f. Could beat us easiely
Cheers

[merlincustom1]

As usual, Fixed with good perspective:)

[Jason E]

Are there currently ANY Olympic swimming events where the Woman's WR is faster than the Men's? Aside from this?

I hear what you are saying, Fixed, but Olympic competition is tip-of-the-sword type times. I do not doubt the 19XX-XX USF Men's swim team [wink] but this is a bit much!

Were y'all slow cause you were looking at the girls?

[Fixed]

Swimming is a lifetime sport it is the one exercise I still try to do a little daily
It is a great sport for energetic young people

[krhea]

I hear you and Iam not arguing but swimming is one sport where the difference in times are the smallest between men and women ,I swam briefly at u.s.f. And the woman from u.f. Could beat us easiely
Cheers

In elite ultra running women are "step for step" with men and have been for quite some time including many female winners/second places overall in big ultra races.


KRhea

[melonyogloo]

Are there currently ANY Olympic swimming events where the Woman's WR is faster than the Men's? Aside from this?

I hear what you are saying, Fixed, but Olympic competition is tip-of-the-sword type times. I do not doubt the 19XX-XX USF Men's swim team [wink] but this is a bit much!

Were y'all slow cause you were looking at the girls?

The new record set by Shiwen is 25 secs slower than Michael Phelps'. Otoh, Lochte's freestyle is only good for 5th among all the men in the final. He even said he started too fast with the butterfly.

[William]

Maybe.....?

http://funny.funnyoldplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/motorized-swimmer.jpg

Or.... is that an EMILY in your suit or are you just happy to see me?
http://www.gizmag.com/emily-motorized-rescue-buoy/17297/




:rolleyes:;)
William

[CDM]

the blind archer? I heard he is from Korea?

[bikinchris]

Urban legend?


"In 1995 a Chicago physician, Bob Goldman, asked 198 Olympic-level U.S. athletes whether they would be willing to take a banned substance if they were guaranteed to win and not get caught; 195 said yes. More than half said they would take the drug if it would enable them to win every competition for five years but then kill them".

That's not an urban legend:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/

[tuxbailey]

Yay, another teenager won a swimming gold medal.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/us-teenager-missy-franklin-wins-190845226--oly.html

[Fixed]

My favorite swimmer
Federica Pellegrini
Cheers

[bcm119]

I find it highly suspicious. At the elite level you never see this happen. Anything involving upper body strength, especially when strength:mass is a factor, is going to favor men. In Fixeds example he was comparing different levels of competition; the Olympics are apples to apples, and if anything US swimmers have the advantage in training resources.

[tuxbailey]

I find it highly suspicious. At the elite level you never see this happen. Anything involving upper body strength, especially when strength:mass is a factor, is going to favor men. In Fixeds example he was comparing different levels of competition; the Olympics are apples to apples, and if anything US swimmers have the advantage in training resources.

So...the Chinese don't have the training resources? Not saying that they can't be doping in this case, but a lot of their athletes do start training at a very young age when they show potential, and they also being lead to have high level competition becoming the singular focus while growing up. Not saying that is a good thing, but that is how they end up with a lot of talented divers who are very young.

[bcm119]

So...the Chinese don't have the training resources? Not saying that they can't be doping in this case, but a lot of their athletes do start training at a very young age when they show potential, and they also being lead to have high level competition becoming the singular focus while growing up. Not saying that is a good thing, but that is how they end up with a lot of talented divers who are very young.

I'm not asserting the US clearly has better resources, but I don't think we have any disadvantage, and like I said if there's any discrepancy I think we have the edge. Elite American clubs like the Race Club are the pinnacle of swimming performance training. This may be buffered by the fact that China has a larger population and a larger pool of talent from which to select the athletes with the most potential . Maybe that was the point you were making. But beginning training at an earlier age in swimming has no correlation with higher performance at the olympic level, and given the same "perfect athlete",eg. Phelps, I think that athlete would have a better chance at achieving full potential here than in China. IMHO of course.

[Fixed]

Remember Popov and Pankratov they were pretty good from what I remember
But
Phelps is better than any swimmer except Spitz that I can remember IMHO

[fiamme red]

I highly doubt that any Chinese athletes will get caught at this Olympics for steroid use.

There are a lot of very smart chemists in China. In fact, almost nobody makes steroids or supplements themselves nowadays in this country; most outsource the job to China. I'd guess that Chinese chemists are far ahead of anything that BALCO could do.

[jpw]

A disgraceful slur.

The men battling for the silver and bronze medals swam the last 50m faster than the chick from China, but that wasn't mentioned by the critic. Lochte swam his race 23 seconds faster than the gal.

[bluesea]

A disgraceful slur.

The men battling for the silver and bronze medals swam the last 50m faster than the chick from China, but that wasn't mentioned by the critic. Lochte swam his race 23 seconds faster than the gal.


Yup, thank you. And on another note, I'm not surprised at the typical sports fan hub bub going on here at the forum.

[Fixed]

I root for great athletes regardless of their birth place
I am fan of greatness

IMHO cheers

[g00dride]

Don't women own long distance swimming records, in cold water? I think it's another gender physiology thing.

[paulh]

Don't women own long distance swimming records, in cold water? I think it's another gender physiology thing.

Shrinkage?

[bcm119]

A disgraceful slur.

The men battling for the silver and bronze medals swam the last 50m faster than the chick from China, but that wasn't mentioned by the critic. Lochte swam his race 23 seconds faster than the gal.

Slur? As in a racial slur? You're nuts. We're comparing men to women in sports performance, not ethnicity. It's a physiological debate.

[bluesea]

Its a doping slur.

[jpw]

Slur? As in a racial slur? You're nuts. We're comparing men to women in sports performance, not ethnicity. It's a physiological debate.

Racial? What? It's a slur against her reputation.

[verticaldoug]

USA has is right to be suspicious of China.

Marion Jones,
Justin Gatlin,
Tim Montgomery,
Crystal Cox (won 4x400m relay in 2004...IOC has removed her gold and now deciding whether to strip the rest of the team),
Antonio Pettigrew (US men's team got their 4x400 gold stripped),
Kelli White (multiple WC golds before stripped, sprints),
LeShawn Merritt (a strange situation though),
Jerome Young (gold in Sydney relay),
CJ Hunter (shot WC...wife of Jones and started suspicion),
Randy Barnes (Olympic shot champ),
Tony Dees (Olympic silver, hurdles),
Mary Decker/Slaney (lost appeal, failed test 1996 for testosterone),
Carl Lewis (part of the famous 100 names list that the USOC kept quiet and allowed to compete...failed for 3 stimulants),
Jim Doehring (Olympic silver, shot),
Torri Edwards (Olympic bronze, double WC, 100m and 4x100 relay),
Dennis Mitchell,
Greg Foster (110m hurdles legend, failed test in 90s for 3 things),
Chrystie Gaines (Olympic and WC),
Sandra Glover (World medals, 400 hurdles),
Danny Harris (perennial runner-up to Edwin Moses),
Alvin Harrison (Olympic gold and silver, 4x400 relay),
Calvin Harrison (same 4X400 relay that got stripped only guy that never tested positive seems to be MJ, bro of Alvin),
Regina Jacobs (WC runner-up twice for 1500m),
Larry Myricks (WC and OG medalist for LJ),
Mike Rogers (World indoor 60 m medalist),
Duane Ross (WC medalist, 110 hurdles),
Mike Stulce (OG gold, shot),
Erik Walder (WC runner-up, LJ)).

Because we oughta know. Doesn't team USA have at least one swimmer on the team previously busted for doping and two on the track team?
Glass houses are a bitch.

[e-RICHIE]

USA has is right to be suspicious of China.

Marion Jones,
Justin Gatlin,
Tim Montgomery,
Crystal Cox (won 4x400m relay in 2004...IOC has removed her gold and now deciding whether to strip the rest of the team),
Antonio Pettigrew (US men's team got their 4x400 gold stripped),
Kelli White (multiple WC golds before stripped, sprints),
LeShawn Merritt (a strange situation though),
Jerome Young (gold in Sydney relay),
CJ Hunter (shot WC...wife of Jones and started suspicion),
Randy Barnes (Olympic shot champ),
Tony Dees (Olympic silver, hurdles),
Mary Decker/Slaney (lost appeal, failed test 1996 for testosterone),
Carl Lewis (part of the famous 100 names list that the USOC kept quiet and allowed to compete...failed for 3 stimulants),
Jim Doehring (Olympic silver, shot),
Torri Edwards (Olympic bronze, double WC, 100m and 4x100 relay),
Dennis Mitchell,
Greg Foster (110m hurdles legend, failed test in 90s for 3 things),
Chrystie Gaines (Olympic and WC),
Sandra Glover (World medals, 400 hurdles),
Danny Harris (perennial runner-up to Edwin Moses),
Alvin Harrison (Olympic gold and silver, 4x400 relay),
Calvin Harrison (same 4X400 relay that got stripped only guy that never tested positive seems to be MJ, bro of Alvin),
Regina Jacobs (WC runner-up twice for 1500m),
Larry Myricks (WC and OG medalist for LJ),
Mike Rogers (World indoor 60 m medalist),
Duane Ross (WC medalist, 110 hurdles),
Mike Stulce (OG gold, shot),
Erik Walder (WC runner-up, LJ)).

Because we oughta know. Doesn't team USA have at least one swimmer on the team previously busted for doping and two on the track team?
Glass houses are a bitch.

Rawesome post atmo.
The R is silent.

ps

arrange disorder

:):rolleyes:;)
:cool::):rolleyes:
:rolleyes::cool::)

[bcm119]

Racial? What? It's a slur against her reputation.
Sorry. Jumped to an unlikely conclusion.

[harlond]

Glass houses are a bitch.Good point, but is there any nation that doesn't have a glass house? Bangladesh maybe?

[bcm119]

USA has is right to be suspicious of China.

Marion Jones,
Justin Gatlin,
Tim Montgomery,
Crystal Cox (won 4x400m relay in 2004...IOC has removed her gold and now deciding whether to strip the rest of the team),
Antonio Pettigrew (US men's team got their 4x400 gold stripped),
Kelli White (multiple WC golds before stripped, sprints),
LeShawn Merritt (a strange situation though),
Jerome Young (gold in Sydney relay),
CJ Hunter (shot WC...wife of Jones and started suspicion),
Randy Barnes (Olympic shot champ),
Tony Dees (Olympic silver, hurdles),
Mary Decker/Slaney (lost appeal, failed test 1996 for testosterone),
Carl Lewis (part of the famous 100 names list that the USOC kept quiet and allowed to compete...failed for 3 stimulants),
Jim Doehring (Olympic silver, shot),
Torri Edwards (Olympic bronze, double WC, 100m and 4x100 relay),
Dennis Mitchell,
Greg Foster (110m hurdles legend, failed test in 90s for 3 things),
Chrystie Gaines (Olympic and WC),
Sandra Glover (World medals, 400 hurdles),
Danny Harris (perennial runner-up to Edwin Moses),
Alvin Harrison (Olympic gold and silver, 4x400 relay),
Calvin Harrison (same 4X400 relay that got stripped only guy that never tested positive seems to be MJ, bro of Alvin),
Regina Jacobs (WC runner-up twice for 1500m),
Larry Myricks (WC and OG medalist for LJ),
Mike Rogers (World indoor 60 m medalist),
Duane Ross (WC medalist, 110 hurdles),
Mike Stulce (OG gold, shot),
Erik Walder (WC runner-up, LJ)).

Because we oughta know. Doesn't team USA have at least one swimmer on the team previously busted for doping and two on the track team?
Glass houses are a bitch.

I don't see how this is relevant to this thread. The doping suspicion, whether founded or not, is due to the physiological unlikelihood of the swimmer's performance. It has little to do with China, although that country's history of doping probably doesn't help. The US' history of doping, while also extensive, isn't relevant.
You guys toeing the PC line sound a lot like the cycling-ignorant public during the Lance years.