no radios in TDF, what about no teams?

[rodcad]

I have no idea about this so I'm gonna ask.........Have there always been teams in the TDF and if not when did they start?

Recent talk about doing away with radios makes me think about taking it one step further and doing away with teams.

I really wonder if the best man really wins or is it more the best team with the best strategy?

[GuyGadois]

I believe this was done back in the olden days. They also raced for a while as national teams.

GG

[Rada]

Kill teams and you also are going to kill sponsorships.

[rodcad]

Kill teams and you also are going to kill sponsorships.


Maybe, I don't know. In golf everyone seems to wear someone or anothers hat and all. Having teams is like playing best ball if you ask me.

Drugs or no drugs, the last really fun TDF I watched had Lance in it. I like seeing the guys hit the mountains and kick butt. Contador was fun to watch their for a while too I suppose. This year was boring boring boring to me.

[David Kirk]

I'm pretty sure it has always been teams that compete and not individuals. Back in the day the teams were national teams (much like the olympics now) and at some point it transitioned to being trade teams backed by company sponsorship. I don't recall what the reason for the change was - anyone know?

Grand Tour riding is a team sport and most often a member of the strongest team will end up winning. In a way it's impossible to tell what man is 'the best man' to see if the 'best man won'. Even if there weren't official teams there would be friendships and alliances that would bond riders together on the road and then you have a de facto team.

I've heard some over the years suggest that the fittest guy should win a race and I couldn't disagree with that more. IMO it's the combination of the best tactics, bike handling, race reading, self knowledge etc.........and fitness that determine the winner. Look what happened the Fabian today - he would have had a VERY good chance to power away from the break for the gold medal if he didn't overcook it into a turn. He no doubt is one of the fittest guys but he lost because he made a mistake and went into a turn too hot. I read somewhere this afternoon that Fabian 'deserved to win' and I think that is total BS. No one deserved to win - someone needed to earn it and just like always, someone did.

It reminds me in a way of the Schlecks complaining about downhills in the race and they came right out and said the 'fittest man won't win'. I suppose they might be two of the fittest men but they will never win the Tour because they haven't yet figured out that it's not an ergometer test with a VO2 max reading at the end - it's a race and to win a race one needs to be the best overall racer.

I got a wee bit of topic there didn't I?

dave

[FlashUNC]

Teams have either formally or informally been around the race in one form or another since the beginning. 1930 was when national teams began to come into the race officially with the switch to trade teams happening decades later.

Teams would form, regardless of whether they were formally admitted or not. But clearly Henri Desgrange would love to hear this kind of perspective.

[Lewdvig]

The Olympic road race showed me how much better the racing is without radios (and smaller teams).

[Fixed]

No team cars on the course only neutral support
No radios
Guys might learn to race by instinct and heart. Again like the old racers
IMHO

Keep the fat moneybag scum bags away from the racers they are the problem with pro cycling
If you disagree see below ...cheers

[Jaq]

Originally it was individuals; dunno how quickly teams emerged. But things were almost wildly unstructured in the beginning. I think it was the second TdF was notorious for cheating. There was one rider who was quite popular in a certain village; after he passed through, the folks all gathered and refused to let the other riders past.

There were other guys getting rides in cars, taking trains, etc. Not sure if it's the same race, but so many riders were disqualified that the winner ended up being some 19 year old. I think he's still the youngest winner.

I imagine a race like the TdF would be all but impossible for an individual rider. Transportation, meals, mechanical & medical support, clean clothing, etc.

[Grant McLean]

...Have there always been teams in the TDF and if not when did they start?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_France

[DogpawSlim]

No team cars on the course only neutral support
No radios
Guys might learn to race by instinct and heart. Again like the old racers
IMHO

Keep the fat moneybag scum bags away from the racers they are the problem with pro cycling
If you disagree see below ...cheers

Great post here :beer:

[MattTuck]

Drugs or no drugs, the last really fun TDF I watched had Lance in it. I like seeing the guys hit the mountains and kick butt. Contador was fun to watch their for a while too I suppose. This year was boring boring boring to me.

So far as I can tell, Sky basically used the Lance/USPS blue print of hiring all the best climbers for your own team to keep them from riding against you. There were tours in the lance years when he didn't win any mountain stages. I believe it was his second or third tour victory.

I thought there were enough other themes in this year's tour to make up for a less than thrilling GC battle.

[djg]

. . .

I've heard some over the years suggest that the fittest guy should win a race and I couldn't disagree with that more. IMO it's the combination of the best tactics, bike handling, race reading, self knowledge etc.........and fitness that determine the winner. Look what happened the Fabian today - he would have had a VERY good chance to power away from the break for the gold medal if he didn't overcook it into a turn. He no doubt is one of the fittest guys but he lost because he made a mistake and went into a turn too hot. I read somewhere this afternoon that Fabian 'deserved to win' and I think that is total BS. No one deserved to win - someone needed to earn it and just like always, someone did.

. . .

dave

Nah, all good, and couldn't agree more. Heck, why even run the race? Why not just do a bunch of physiological testing to see who's the strongest each day and then let the racers and the fans go back to bed? Props to FC for mad power and toughness, and for putting himself in the right place in the right break, but deserving to win begins with staying on your bike. Weird turn, but hardly a secret or unridable, and nobody shoved him into the barriers, and it's not even one of those "just racing" things that happen completely outside the rider's control. As you say, he overcooked the turn, and that was that.

[dekindy]

I thought I saw somewhere that FC's crash was caused by the camera motorcycle?

[martinrjensen]

Unfortunately, if you take the money away from the sport, you might as well take away the sport. Maybe there will be a race somewhere, but you won't ever see it. If there's not a lot of money to be made, it won't be available for viewing. Maybe in a newsreel as a warmup to a movie .....No team cars on the course only neutral support
No radios
Guys might learn to race by instinct and heart. Again like the old racers
IMHO

Keep the fat moneybag scum bags away from the racers they are the problem with pro cycling If you disagree see below ...cheers

[redir]

Bicycle racing is a team sport. It would be like having a base ball team with only one player... Doesn't work.

[jr59]

No team cars on the course only neutral support
No radios
Guys might learn to race by instinct and heart. Again like the old racers
IMHO

Keep the fat moneybag scum bags away from the racers they are the problem with pro cycling
If you disagree see below ...cheers

Not at all sure I agree with any of this;

No team cars; Would that mean only water? Or every team has to ride Campy?
No radios; Why? The radio doesn't pedal the bike. It can only provide info, like a a crash or a teammate needs help, or you need to up the pace because the break is to far ahead. The raido does not pedal the bike.

The old days get romanced in every sport. Fans always think "oh how great things used to be" this is not always the case. In fact it is most always not the case.

Keeping the fat moneybag scum out of any sport is a good idea. Trouble is, who decides who is scum? Because pro bike racing needs fat moneybags to support it. Skinny money bags as well. Deciding who is scum and who isn't is a slippery slope, and a very tricky thing indeed.


I sort of am in favor of no teams. This appeals to me some how!

anyway, JMO!

Hey I know, we could go back to riding fixed gears and fixing your own bikes!

[palincss]

Bicycle racing is a team sport. It would be like having a base ball team with only one player... Doesn't work.

And yet, in baseball only a team wins. There is no 1st place, 2nd place, etc. for individual members of the team. In bicycle racing, it's exactly the opposite: individuals take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and are up there on the podium as individuals. There is no 1st place for a team.

[Kontact]

And yet, in baseball only a team wins. There is no 1st place, 2nd place, etc. for individual members of the team. In bicycle racing, it's exactly the opposite: individuals take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and are up there on the podium as individuals. There is no 1st place for a team.

I think the team sponsor would disagree.



Another reason for teams is that the majority of pro racers would have no reason to race if they weren't on a team. You can't build a career out of coming in 6th all the time, but you can be a valued domestique while your skills and speed improve. None of the big winners started TdF winners.

[jpw]

I thought I saw somewhere that FC's crash was caused by the camera motorcycle?

When I saw the camera motorcycle's television shots it seemed as though FC was following the line it took through that corner, and that may have been the 'cause' of the crash.

[jpw]

When did radios first appear in the pro peloton, and why?

[Bruce K]

I think if you look closely at the sequence, Cancellara looks over his shoulder just as he is setting up for the corner.

In cornering, where the line is crucial to carry maximum speed, that is a major break in concentration and a big no-no.

I thought that was his error and the cause of the crash. He lost his focus, missed his braking, and overshot the turn-in because he couldn't/knew he wouldn't get the bike to turn.

Fortunately he didn't break anyrhing but he appeared to be VERY uncomfortable.

BK

[Kontact]

When did radios first appear in the pro peloton, and why?

Whenever they became light and reliable enough to be carried by bike racers. Communication in a team sport has always been valuable for coordination, pacing, emergencies, etc.

[FlashUNC]

Whenever they became light and reliable enough to be carried by bike racers. Communication in a team sport has always been valuable for coordination, pacing, emergencies, etc.

To me, the "no radios" argument is the same as baseball's insistence that instant replay not be expanded. If the technology is there, why not?

People act as if breakaways survived all the time in the pre-radio days. Yeah, they got away once in a blue moon, but it wasn't as if the breakaway was something killed by race radios.

[Kontact]

To me, the "no radios" argument is the same as baseball's insistence that instant replay not be expanded. If the technology is there, why not?

People act as if breakaways survived all the time in the pre-radio days. Yeah, they got away once in a blue moon, but it wasn't as if the breakaway was something killed by race radios.

Why not aero fairings, braking powered electric motors and EPO, too?

UCI racing, like most forms of racing, has restrictions to keep the sport from evolving into something else. Specifically, road racing is a team sport that puts an accent on tactics and coordinated efforts that have evolved over a century. Radios completely change who is leading the teams, the importance of individual rider judgement and take away from the risk of breakaways. In other words, they would make racing boring.

[Fixed]

Motorola 7/11
Cheers If I remember correctly
Yeah jr59 I can fix my own bike what is wrong with that now ? I like teams too !

jpw
Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Raleighville
Posts: 2,727
When did radios first appear in the pro peloton, and why?

[AC0]

To me, the "no radios" argument is the same as baseball's insistence that instant replay not be expanded. If the technology is there, why not?


Radios in cycling provide more/different information to the participants (racers) than without it. The BB equivalent would be allowing a coach to sit in the CF bleachers, steal the catchers signals and radio them to the dugout or batter.

Instant replay helps the officials to make better decisions, no different than the finish line camera.

AC

[corky]

If they had Radios at the Olympics RR...

"Sparty.... turn the bars 10 more degrees NOW!"


thats how a lot of racing is run a ce moment......