Getting Dropped

[boxerboxer]

Until starting an actual training plan this week (Carmichael's TCC - New Competitor) my riding has consisted of 1-2 ~30 mile group rides a week and a 30-40 mile solo ride on the weekends. This week I had an hour of easy riding Monday and yesterday did an hour ride which included 3x8min intervals just below LT with 5min rest intervals. Tuesday evening I did a group ride in which I normally keep up with the faster group (not fast by racing standards, but it's the faster people in the slowest shop ride) and can win the occasional pissing match or two sprinting for [insert landmark on ride route]. Yesterday, though, I couldn't even hang on the back of the fast group and had nothing left when people were sprinting for the line.

I suspect it's probably a dumb idea to deviate too much from a structured training plan like that with rest periods built in in a deliberate way, but I'm curious as to whether the lack of energy was due to the previous two rides or perhaps poor nutrition (I suspect this was not the main problem as on previous rides I rarely ate anything on the bike or in the last few hours before riding).

I'm just looking for opinions from some more experienced riders on the following:
1. Should I even mess with the group rides, other than maybe subbing for a workout if appropriate?
2. What caused my inability to hang? I realize there may not be enough info to really tell, so let me know if I can provide more.

[MattTuck]

Until starting an actual training plan this week (Carmichael's TCC - New Competitor) my riding has consisted of 1-2 ~30 mile group rides a week and a 30-40 mile solo ride on the weekends. This week I had an hour of easy riding Monday and yesterday did an hour ride which included 3x8min intervals just below LT with 5min rest intervals. Tuesday evening I did a group ride in which I normally keep up with the faster group (not fast by racing standards, but it's the faster people in the slowest shop ride) and can win the occasional pissing match or two sprinting for [insert landmark on ride route]. Yesterday, though, I couldn't even hang on the back of the fast group and had nothing left when people were sprinting for the line.

I suspect it's probably a dumb idea to deviate too much from a structured training plan like that with rest periods built in in a deliberate way, but I'm curious as to whether the lack of energy was due to the previous two rides or perhaps poor nutrition (I suspect this was not the main problem as on previous rides I rarely ate anything on the bike or in the last few hours before riding).

I'm just looking for opinions from some more experienced riders on the following:
1. Should I even mess with the group rides, other than maybe subbing for a workout if appropriate?
2. What caused my inability to hang? I realize there may not be enough info to really tell, so let me know if I can provide more.

reasons for one bad day are too plentiful to list a complete set. some include hydration, calories, how you slept the previous night, stress at work, your body being fatigued.

Just because your plan has built in 'rest', doesn't mean that your body listens to that. When it tells you that you need to take a recovery day, listen to it.

[FlashUNC]

Until starting an actual training plan this week (Carmichael's TCC - New Competitor) my riding has consisted of 1-2 ~30 mile group rides a week and a 30-40 mile solo ride on the weekends. This week I had an hour of easy riding Monday and yesterday did an hour ride which included 3x8min intervals just below LT with 5min rest intervals. Tuesday evening I did a group ride in which I normally keep up with the faster group (not fast by racing standards, but it's the faster people in the slowest shop ride) and can win the occasional pissing match or two sprinting for [insert landmark on ride route]. Yesterday, though, I couldn't even hang on the back of the fast group and had nothing left when people were sprinting for the line.

I suspect it's probably a dumb idea to deviate too much from a structured training plan like that with rest periods built in in a deliberate way, but I'm curious as to whether the lack of energy was due to the previous two rides or perhaps poor nutrition (I suspect this was not the main problem as on previous rides I rarely ate anything on the bike or in the last few hours before riding).

I'm just looking for opinions from some more experienced riders on the following:
1. Should I even mess with the group rides, other than maybe subbing for a workout if appropriate?
2. What caused my inability to hang? I realize there may not be enough info to really tell, so let me know if I can provide more.

Its a bad day. It happens. Maybe try to sort out what happened leading up to it to cause it -- something as simple as a fitful night of sleep can really wreak havoc.

But I wouldn't worry about it too much. Some days you're the bug, other days you're the windshield.

[beeatnik]

Do you use an HR monitor?

[Fixed]

keep at it one off day does not end all
imho
cheers

[Lovetoclimb]

I like the Voeckler plan. When the legs are there attack relentlessly.

[MattTuck]

I like the Voeckler plan. When the legs are there attack relentlessly.

And make funny faces.

[laupsi]

all great advice thus far: keep your focus but also understand if you have changed the way you train it will take a little bit of time to fully adjust. listen to the body more than your training log when it comes to recovery.

ride on days you're tired, if your schedule shows you riding, but keep it very easy despite the scheduled effort. if you are suddenly irritable or cannot sleep or concentrate on work related things then definately take time off the bike and start back when you feel fresh. Good Luck!

[boxerboxer]

Thanks for the advice, all. I'm certainly not overly discouraged, other than the obligatory moment of frustration when a break passes you buy and you know you can't follow it. The message was written out of curiosity more than anything.

What I'm most interested in is your experience with how a moderate-hard effort in the morning has affected your ability both for endurance and sprinting on a ride later that day.

[Bob Loblaw]

Interval training will do that to you. Your body may have plenty of energy after an interval workout, but your legs will be flat. IOW, hanging in won't necessarily be harder, but with muscular fatigue, the acceleration just won't be there.

The good news is, if you stay with the intervals, you'll soon find yourself with a deeper well of speed and able to dip into more often before it runs dry. You need to give yourself time to recover from those hard efforts to reap the eventual benefits though.

BL

[Gummee]

If you're not used to going as hard as that intervals session you just did, then you're going to pay for it for a few days.

No need to stress. Los guys had fresher legs than you did.

I know I was feeling the results of Sat's 3 x 20min cruise intervals on Mon. Didn't have any oomph. Continued into yesterday's ride.

We'll see what goes on tonite.

M

[false_Aest]

If I'm reading this right
You did intervals in the AM and then a group ride in the PM.

twoadays are hard in any sport. twoadays where someone else is setting the pace are very hard.

Last year Wednesdays AM was spent doing sprints. I tried doing a decent ride in the PM (30miles 2.5k climbing) but my legs revolted. Ended up deciding that the commute home was better spent spinning the nasties out of my muscles.

[wasfast]

Until starting an actual training plan this week (Carmichael's TCC - New Competitor) my riding has consisted of 1-2 ~30 mile group rides a week and a 30-40 mile solo ride on the weekends. This week I had an hour of easy riding Monday and yesterday did an hour ride which included 3x8min intervals just below LT with 5min rest intervals. Tuesday evening I did a group ride in which I normally keep up with the faster group (not fast by racing standards, but it's the faster people in the slowest shop ride) and can win the occasional pissing match or two sprinting for [insert landmark on ride route]. Yesterday, though, I couldn't even hang on the back of the fast group and had nothing left when people were sprinting for the line.

I'd suspect that this is the first "hard" interval set you done in a long time (or never perhaps). Anything approaching LT is going to leave a mark. Likewise, adding in the group ride (which I'm sure wasn't in the plan) will only underscore the amount of drain the intervals caused.

Group rides are nice when you just want to ride. They rarely fit into any training pattern since the ride dictates the pace, not you/your training schedule. You'll notice that many pros train on their own so they get the exact workout prescribed.

Add in the other posters comments about factors beyond the ride itself, you get the idea.

[redir]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. But if you want to race you will need to train more then that. Expect to put ten - twelve quality hours a week on the bike to hang in races. I'd suspect that the guys you are riding with are racing too? Or maybe following more aggressive training plans.

[boxerboxer]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. But if you want to race you will need to train more then that. Expect to put ten - twelve quality hours a week on the bike to hang in races. I'd suspect that the guys you are riding with are racing too? Or maybe following more aggressive training plans.

Most of the faster riders on that ride are doing some racing, but none of them that I talked to had put in a training ride that morning either. I understand what you're saying about volume, but I don't have 10-12 hours a week at this point, and may never have, hence the program I'm on (it's intensity heavy to compensate for lower volume). I understand the drawbacks that come with that and am ok with it because it's the best I can get out of the time I have.

[John H.]

You just signed on to a structured program.
Group rides are the opposite of a structured program- hard at times, but totally random.
Did you have a group ride specified for training for Tuesday night post a.m. interval session?
Give your training program a chance to work.

[Climb01742]

Give your training program a chance to work.

this.

patience, grasshopper. you need a larger sample to begin to understand how your body is reacting to the training, and then what factors impact what.

keep a training log where you note things like hours slept, how you ate, stress levels, work craziness, sniffles, whatever...then look for patterns. but patterns take time.

patience, grasshopper.;)

[old iron rider]

We have all been there. I have felt exactly what you have gone through. I:fight:ts not fun. In fact it's frustrating and many riders including myself have done the train more routine. Then your sleep cycle gets out of wack, and you start looking for a reason not to ride. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. Less is more. Before a big ride, I cut back on everything a few days before. Less miles, less intensity, and then, I take a day off other than a 5 mile ride early in the morning. And even that ride is senior citizen pace. I hardly even sweat. On the day of the ride..............................I'm recharged! For about 5 miles I'm a bit sluggish. But then I'm going strong!
Give it a try. Less is more.

[boxerboxer]

this.

patience, grasshopper. you need a larger sample to begin to understand how your body is reacting to the training, and then what factors impact what.

keep a training log where you note things like hours slept, how you ate, stress levels, work craziness, sniffles, whatever...then look for patterns. but patterns take time.

patience, grasshopper.;)

I only did this particular ride because a friend was in from out of town and wanted to ride. I was not terribly surprised about my performance and plan on sticking to plan. Took the prescribed rest day today as required :). I appreciate the comments though, good reinforcement of what I've been reading.

[slidey]

There's nothing surprising here. Mixing two plans in any proportion is a bad idea...training plans are akin to antibiotic dosage, i.e. you follow a course or start over.

Also, remember that you make the most gains on recovery days. So if you're cutting short your recovery time or are over stressing yourself beyond what a training plan recommends, the least that can happen is fatigue and the worst is over training leading to weight loss, etc leading to a cumulative down-time of at least 2 weeks. Yeah, I've been there...unfortunately in my case it was bad advice that got me there.

What I'm most interested in is your experience with how a moderate-hard effort in the morning has affected your ability both for endurance and sprinting on a ride later that day.

[beeatnik]

TiDesigns, where are you?

[bheight1]

Any new faces/cat riders show up on this week's ride? You're over thinking it, next you'll be psyched out. If you did too much in one day or the day leading up to a hard effort, prepare differently this week. EVERYONE gets dropped, now go drop the hammer this week.

[93legendti]

On Tuesdays and Thursdays, I like to do hard a.m. rides and then do fast group rides in the evenings.

It's hard on the body and the first few times I do it in a summer, I pay for it on the evening rides. But, my body gets used to it and handles it very well after 2 weeks.

If you were mildly dehydrated and didn't rehydrate enough after the a.m. ride and didn't drink enough (or eat enough) before the evening ride, it would be easy to see why you were dropped.


Pay attention to hydration and nutrition on double ride days-they are even more critical.

[redir]

Most of the faster riders on that ride are doing some racing, but none of them that I talked to had put in a training ride that morning either. I understand what you're saying about volume, but I don't have 10-12 hours a week at this point, and may never have, hence the program I'm on (it's intensity heavy to compensate for lower volume). I understand the drawbacks that come with that and am ok with it because it's the best I can get out of the time I have.

Yeah absolutely, you gotta do what you gotta do. Short intensity can go a long way. I missed the part about you having already done a training ride in the morning, that will do you in. But, there are some studies out there that show that when you train twice a day you benefit greatly. That's a great way to cut out training time but still have quality. That is why I love commuting. You get a ride in the morning and then one in the early evening.

[HenryA]

Monitor your waking heart rate.
It tells a big story.

The other thing is yes, two-a-days are going to set you back. Especially until you get used to the higher training volume.

You get stronger when you rest, so you have to allow enough rest.
Constant tear down with no rest leaves you weaker and more likely to get sick.

[Ti Designs]

TiDesigns, where are you?

Quietly disagreeing with much of what I'm reading.

Any training program that works in isolation is untested. How do you gauge results? A lot of people go by average speed or wattage, but the real test is how you stack up on a group ride. I've always brought new riders into group rides as the fast track to making better riders, here's how:

Step 1) Assume you're at a power disadvantage, but getting dropped is not an option. This means you need to be the smartest rider in the group. Standing orders for any of my new riders, you sit in the back for the first 15 minutes and observe everyone else in the group. You'll notice there are strong riders who aren't putting in much effort, weaker riders who have to try to keep up and idiots who feel the need to sit on the front. Put yourself on the wheel of one of the stronger riders, take short pulls when you find yourself on the front and don't allow other riders to put you in the wrong place. If the ride seems easy doing this, you're doing something very right. Who hangs on any given ride isn't about average speed, it's about who's still there when it gets really fast. When that happens, you're either rested and ready or you're all done. This is your defensive tactic, one you can always fall back on. This takes getting dropped off the table.

Step 1a) Find a coach. This need not be an official coach, I'm talking about a really good ride who's been around the block a few times and is faster than the people in the group you're riding with. They should understand that they're not there to rip everyone's legs off, for them it's more active rest. If you get in trouble, it's their job to bring you back in. On the first few rides I can't stress this enough. If you get dropped all learning stops. If you get dropped and towed back in, you know what you did wrong and you can find a way around that mistake the next time around - the learning continues.

Step 2) Bring the ride into your camp. You're going to find that there are parts you struggle and parts you find easy. By this point you have your defensive tactics down, so they can't drop you, now the question is how do you drop them? Your friend/coach will be sitting in watching, so even if you extend yourself too far, he'll keep you in. This is where it gets fun...


I agree that a structured training program is the best way to see results, but you can't ignore the dynamics of a group ride - there's a lot to be learned and it's way more fun. For all the pedal stoke work I do (and hate doing), I look forward to the hammer ride like nothing else.

[beeatnik]

^Great advice. And it works.

My philosophy. Ride smart; never get dropped.

I think it's at least 50% psychological...desire...

Never get dropped.

[Ti Designs]

In many club rides what causes many people to get dropped is their desire to share the work and take long pulls. The last group ride I was on, everyone in the group wanted to take pulls that are several minutes long. At a hard pace that's just not possible. A paceline can go much faster than an individual because the person on the front is above threshold and everyone else is sitting in. You have maybe 30 - 40 seconds at that rate, and you need to keep enough in the tank to get back on the end of the line. At speed, each rider should be taking a very short pull and rotating back. That's just not what I see on most group rides. The problem is their eyes are mounted in the front of their heads, so they get to the front and think "hey, I'm on the front, watch this!" and then the speed starts to slip, and there's a line of riders behind them tapping their fingers on their handlebars waiting for the guy on the front to move over... The goal of a fast moving paceline is the speed doesn't change, the lenght of pull of any rider is based on how long they can sustain that pace and still get back on the back. There are going to be some riders who can just about get clear of the rider who just pulled off before they need to rotate off themselves - and that's fine. What people don't get is that even that 5 seconds on the front helps the paceline, as long as the speed doesn't change. Your time in the wind isn't just your time up front, it's also the time it takes to get to the back, and they you need to match the pace. Because of this, your time in the shelter of the paceline isn't all the time you're not up front, there's overhead. That 5 second pull adds 5 more seconds to everyone else's time in shelter, I've written thank you notes for less.

In training for this there are intervals. Anyone who says they love doing intervals is nuts, but anyone who's done intervals but doesn't understand their value did them wrong. I use a trainer 'cause everything is under your control. Here's how it works: You set up a trainer, warm up and establish what I call a baseline, which should be 75-80% of your AT. You have to do this by bringing up your HR, not down. With that established you set up a timer with large, readable numbers and on a full piece of paper write out a schedule like this:

0:00 - 2:00 Baseline 2:00 - 2:30 Interval
2:30 - 3:30 Baseline 3:30 - 4:00 Interval
4:00 - 5:30 Baseline 5:30 - 6:00 Interval
6:00 - 7:30 Baseline 7:30 - 8:00 Interval
8:00 - 9:30 Baseline 9:30 - 10:00 Interval

Don't overestimate your ability to think while doing intervals - really. Baseline is the same power output as what you found from rest. Make it simple, use the same gear and return to the same cadence. The interval is all out in a larger gear. Again, make it simple, shift to the same gear and go at it. As soon as the interval is done you return right back to baseline. When you start you'll be thinking baseline is too easy, by the third interval you'll have changed your mind. If you look at the numbers above you'll notice there's only 60 seconds off for the first interval, then 90 seconds off for the others. This is so you're well into zone 5 in the first few seconds of the next interval. This is just an example, as your recovery gets better the baseline times get shorter, as you get older they get longer...

There is a team variation on this where 4 riders get on trainers and set up to do intervals. The full rotation time is set at 2 minutes, which means all else being equal, each rider would take a 30 second pull. All things are never equal, but the speed at the front has to remain, so some riders find they can't take the full 30 second. This is where teamwork comes in, if one rider is to take only 20 second pulls, two teammates need to up their time to 35 seconds. The team that does the best is the one that figures out how to keep the interval wattage highest across all four riders. I've heard riders offer their teammates cash for seconds while doing this...

[djg]

Quietly disagreeing with much of what I'm reading.

. . .

I agree that a structured training program is the best way to see results, but you can't ignore the dynamics of a group ride - there's a lot to be learned and it's way more fun. For all the pedal stoke work I do (and hate doing), I look forward to the hammer ride like nothing else.

I wouldn't disagree with this, but it seems entirely consistent with the observation made by many, above: a single surprisingly bad day can occur for any number of reasons and shouldn't be over-interpreted. It's not data. Without a plan for collecting data, it's not even a data point.

[AgilisMerlin]

patience, grasshopper

. . ...then look for patterns. but patterns take time.

patience, grasshopper.;)

:banana: