Custom Boutique vs. Italian off the peg

[sfscott]

I was just about to pull the trigger on a C59 via a UK dealer when I visited my friend/usual shop today. He's a dealer in customs and sold me my Serottas.

In a nutshell, I got the hard sell on why Parlee made a better bike than Colnago or Pinarello or DeRosa, and, for essentially the same price, I could get a better fit/geometry and a tuned ride.

What I did not tell him was how cheap the UK dealer is. Also, I have ridden the C59 and a M10. With my prior two customs (a Legend and an Ottrott) i wasn't sure what I was getting and can't say that I was blown away by the performance (might be as much my communication skills to builder.)

So here's my question and problem. I am assuming that the C59 can be fit to me just fine. I'm not a hard-to-fit person. On the other hand, my guy is a very good fitter, knows me, built a slack seat tube angle for me last time and will work to get it right on the custom. I also like his shop and the service there.

But, I feel I would have a hard time going back for service, fitting work, etc if I bought a frame and kit from the UK and showed up with a new ride in the future; it's like cheating on him. I also can't discern what is a salesman's F-U-D about other brands vs. what he sells and what is legitimate advice.

It seems in LBS land, to paraphrase George Carlin, their $h!t is stuff and every other shop's stuff is $h!t.

So, economically, it's a no-brainer to buy the C59 and build kit off shore. But I feel guilty for not giving the local boutique the order and wonder how to maintain a relationship. Also, I do wonder if there's something to be said for sticking with a fitter and a "tuned" ride.

FWIW, I am looking for a frame that is super-snappy, climbs well and has good road feel. I am not a century rider, so plushness for 6 hours at a time is not my primary concern. I want to go out for 2-3 hours, ride hard, feel fast and agile and be able to drag my overweight arse up hills better. I also want to install electronic shifting, so that's part of the motivation for a new frame as well.

Too many choices. Where's Henry Ford's black model T?

[SoCalSteve]

I'm in the same place as you now ( even though I'm probably a few months off from pulling a trigger on anything).

I can't decide between a stock sized C59, a Firefly custom Ti or a Landshark custom carbon frame. John Slawta is awesome, btw.

My gut is to go with the custom bike as the 2 bikes I own now were both custom built for me...and, as they say: the proof is in the pudding...they are the only 2 bikes I still own (and boy, I've owned MANY).

So, for what it's worth...I don't have a clue what to tell you...just happy that we can have these "first world" problems.

Life is good!!!

[bluesea]

I don't know...for me going with a Colnago is going with an Italian racing bike with their slack front end geometry. If that's what I wanted, then seriously there's not many options available. But that's just me.

[54ny77]

if you fit and the price is right, i'd take a c59 off the rack any day over custom headaches (the latter with very, very, very few exceptions).

that said, your off the rack is not off the rack, it's overseas mailorder which means customs delays, no lbs shop support, warranty nightmares (if it came to that), yadda yadda.

so, it's a coin toss!

[slidey]

I hear you on this. But, it's your choice, your money, your satisfaction that matters. In my opinion, I say go the UK way, build it up like you want to, ride it a while, and if it falls below your expectations you'll find it way easier to sell than a bike custom-made to you. The fact that your biomechanics falls in the sweet spot is all the more reason for you to go stock, instead of aiming directly for the more expensive custom option.

As for the FUD it's really annoying but they've got a shop to run too...you'd be hard-pressed to find any advice from a LBS owner that has you shopping elsewhere. There are some good people out there too - I've found a couple such honest people who dgaf about what you do after they tell you what's best for you...so keep on searching :)

I also can't discern what is a salesman's F-U-D about other brands vs. what he sells and what is legitimate advice.

It seems in LBS land, to paraphrase George Carlin, their $h!t is stuff and every other shop's stuff is $h!t.

So, economically, it's a no-brainer to buy the C59 and build kit off shore.

[pdmtong]

FWIW, I am looking for a frame that is super-snappy, climbs well and has good road feel.

IF you are center bell curve, parlee would actually sell you a Z5. it's 99% the ride quality of the custom, but modern like PF30, Di2, etc. AND cheaper

some half the Z5's they sell are di2 ready

that said, I have a stock Z3c. love the fact handmade in peabody, and the bike delivers what you decribe above in spades.

my ottrott is supremely comfy, and gets to the same place as the parlee albeit with a seemingly slower windup.

but when I am on my parlee I feel like superman and when I get on the gas, the bike takes off like a scalded cat (thanks paul sherwin)

[soulspinner]

Get the Parlee. Having ridden and owned a Colnago I too think a very slack (my size is a 52 sloper) front end measured 71.8 degrees. The bike was a bit slow to turn in. YMMV.

[SPOKE]

How's that warranty service from overseas????

[jr59]

Custom is custom. As long as you can trust the fitter, there is nothing else like it.

I love european road bikes, Nagos, Merckx, bianchi, Derosa, all of them hold a soft spot in my heart. But when I can get a bike built for me, to do what I want it to do, as stiff and slack, (if I wish) as I want, set up the way I want, painted the way I want, It's a no brainer.

Get the custom!

BTW; I own 3 racing euro bikes, and 2 customs with 2 more on the way!
I rarely ride the euro bikes, but I do so much love them.

[Joachim]

A custom builder with a bad warranty or customer service is like no warranty at all. My future purchases will most likely be with mid-size builders and/or stock. I would suggest go with stock if it fits. Custom paint can often be done by the mid-size builders like Parlee anyway. I prefer to stay on the safer side from now on due to past experiences.

[christian]

I think Parlees are awesome bikes. But a lime green and black C59? Oh mama. Yes please.

[AngryScientist]

in the world we live in today, it would be unfair if your buddy and shop owner didnt understand why/if you went with the 'nago.

let's face it, all of the bikes you are considering are top notch machines, and in the end - you should get the one your heart yearns for, nothing else really matters if you take the financial part out of the equation. i've always lusted for a colnago, so that's the direction i'd probably go, especially if its the less expensive option.

your buddy likely stands to make more $ from you as a customer on fittings and service than the margin on a new bike in the long run anyway, i would think he would be happy to keep you as a loyal customer, regardless of where you buy your latest bike, especially if he is not a colnago dealer. none of us really require more than a specialized allez or whatever, anything beyond that is about passion and lust, and all those wonderful things, get what calls to you.

first world problems indeed, but not a terrible position to be in:)

good luck and let us know how you turn out!

[gearguywb]

I have been kicking around the idea of a C59 from overseas myself. Looked at a couple of them a few weeks ago and was very impressed.

The Parlee is not an option for me. Due to saddle height and drop measurements, Parlees extended (tall) HT design is (IMHO) one of the ugliest things there is.

Custom is custom. If you have a good relationship with the builder, and can communicate well, you will end up with a great riding bike.

[Fixed]

http://www.crumptoncycles.com/. For custom carbon
From what I hear this guy is second to none
Firefly for ti cutting edge new guys
Sachs for steel if you could get one
If I were buying and money counted I would buy a spectrum probably
Cheers
All the bikes mentioned in your post are world class race bikes ,if you are looking for a race bike then I might consider a cannondale as well .
as an older rider I would want something a little different than what the young guys are riding though just to show my own refined taste .
Whatever you get will be great though
Cheers

[Peter P.]

Talk to your shop contact before you order the C59 to get a feel for the situation-tell him you're seriously considering purchasing the Colnago and you want to know if you'll have any conflict with him when it comes to service.

His response will speak volumes about whether you want to continue doing business with him.

The issue here is whether the guy wants your business, not which frame you should buy. As long as you pay your bills he should be willing to do the work.

[jlwdm]

if you fit and the price is right, i'd take a c59 off the rack any day over custom headaches (the latter with very, very, very few exceptions).

....

Custom headaches? Not my experience at all or what I see if you go with the top builders. If there are problems it is usually because of too much rider input.

Jeff

[oldguy00]

It seems obvious to me that you want the C59, but feel guilty about not going for the Parlee.
Get the C59. And don't decide based on warranty. Chances of having a warranty issue on a high end colnago are very very low. And, bikes are replaceable, so buy the one you want.
I've ridden many C series Colnago's, they rock.
If you are uncomfortable going to your LBS for service, then take it to another shop. Maybe take it as an opportunity to travel to a retul fitter to get perfectly set up.
Oh, and the slack front end on a Colnago does not make them slow handling, it makes them less twitchy and more comfortable than other bikes. Quite a few pro riders seem to have no trouble negotiating tight mountain descents on 'slow handling' colnagos...

[Climb01742]

Talk to your shop contact before you order the C59 to get a feel for the situation-tell him you're seriously considering purchasing the Colnago and you want to know if you'll have any conflict with him when it comes to service.

His response will speak volumes about whether you want to continue doing business with him.

The issue here is whether the guy wants your business, not which frame you should buy. As long as you pay your bills he should be willing to do the work.

+1

this approach could lead to everyone winning. you get the bike you really want. your shop gets all the colateral purchases. and if you talk before you buy, everyone feels respected. moreover, your shop's fitter might have insights into your fit on a 'nago geo that you may not have considered.

[charliedid]

This will get you nothing but confused....

Buy the bike YOU want.

[beercan]

go custom if the price is right, but sounds like you should get a LOOK to me, climbs well, great road feel, a rocket when you need it to be, atleast my 595 road like that.

[rugbysecondrow]

Talk to your shop contact before you order the C59 to get a feel for the situation-tell him you're seriously considering purchasing the Colnago and you want to know if you'll have any conflict with him when it comes to service.

His response will speak volumes about whether you want to continue doing business with him.

The issue here is whether the guy wants your business, not which frame you should buy. As long as you pay your bills he should be willing to do the work.

If your fitter were to customize a bike for your, how close would the dimensions from the size cycle mirror the Colnago you want? If they are very close with no weird compromise, then that helps in your decision making. Also, I think this helps in explaining to your fitter/buddy/shop owner why the Colnago might be a better option for you. I would also be upfront about pricing. The elephant in the room is the internet pricing, especially overseas pricing. There is no reason to not acknowledge it, but just deal with it forthrightly. If you buddy can come down in price some, the delta might be manageable for you and worth it from a service and local economic perspective.

If there are too many compromises in fit, or really any compromises, then I would go custom OR find another stock that mirrored my fit requirements.

From all I have heard, Parlee makes a damn fine bike that folks love, based in the USA, a local shop to handle service issues might lend itself to a better customer experience.

[fuzzalow]

I have bought a Colnago from the UK dealer you are refering to. No NA dealer can match his rate. He knows how to ship to circumvent the incidence of customs for stateside clients. Colnago will not build you a frame that becomes unbonded and you will not be an inept mechanic that wrenchs a BB sleeve loose. That useless official warranty is just a psychic pacifier.

Buy the Colnago and be not brow beaten or guilted into a sale of whatever boutique LBS is currently flogging. There is no easier frame to sell than a late-model Colnago carbon to a wide audience of both serious and semi-knowledgable riders. You paid a competitive price from UK dealer - so the financial and liquidity risk is small.

[oldguy00]

I think Parlees are awesome bikes. But a lime green and black C59? Oh mama. Yes please.


From weight weenies:

http://i47.tinypic.com/ziu98l.jpg


http://i46.tinypic.com/jhxxsm.gif

[Fixed]

Colnago = world class. For many decades !it is the standard others try to match
Post pictures for us
Cheers

[laupsi]

read all the threads here and by now you must be totally torn; lots of conflicting advice, but all of it pretty much spot on.

my take is to go w/the custom fit providing you have relayed all pertinent info to the builder as well as the boutique fitter.

unlike some here I really don't think that highly of Colnago or any of the other "high end" production frame manufacturers. Yes you can get a great bike, you can also score a lemon. these guys build/market to make $$$ first, the production end of it dictates everything, quality sometimes gets lost in the process.

Best of luck either way and let us know what you decide!

[veloduffer]

At my LBS, I have only bought one bike from them (a mtb) in the decade that I've known them. They only sell Trek, and I routinely have them build up my Serottas, Parlee, etc (they're fantastic mechanics and gives me more ride time). It's never been an issue and it shouldn't be with any bike shop.

If you are not wedded to the Italian heritage thing, I think the Parlee would do everything you ask of it. I got mine because I wanted a race oriented carbon frame that was stiff enough to really respond to hard efforts like out of saddle climbs, but still muted bad roads. I, too, prefer slack seat angle (73, but have slack 72.5 on my Sachs and Kish customs), but the Parlee was neutral enough at 73. I am between their stock size M/L tall and L and got the L for the longer head tube. I test rode the Z4 and Z5 and took the Z4. I really couldn't tell much difference between the two and the Z4 was cheaper. LBS gave me a very good deal and the setup (reach, saddle height) was nearly identical to my other bikes.

I've put quite a few miles on the Parlee and it is a really great bike. My Ottrott is a tad more comfortable but the Parlee is more responsive to sprints and accelerations on climbs.

[bobswire]

Follow your heart. Parlees are great but Colnago knows how to make bikes,period.
It's not about the bike anyway > http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/my-strange-addiction/videos/million-mile-ride.htm

[laupsi]

Follow your heart. Parlees are great but Colnago knows how to make bikes,period.
It's not about the bike anyway > http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/my-strange-addiction/videos/million-mile-ride.htm

or in the case of your video, don't follow your heart. that guy needs therapy!

[oldpotatoe]

It seems obvious to me that you want the C59, but feel guilty about not going for the Parlee.
Get the C59. And don't decide based on warranty. Chances of having a warranty issue on a high end colnago are very very low. And, bikes are replaceable, so buy the one you want.
I've ridden many C series Colnago's, they rock.
If you are uncomfortable going to your LBS for service, then take it to another shop. Maybe take it as an opportunity to travel to a retul fitter to get perfectly set up.
Oh, and the slack front end on a Colnago does not make them slow handling, it makes them less twitchy and more comfortable than other bikes. Quite a few pro riders seem to have no trouble negotiating tight mountain descents on 'slow handling' colnagos...

Yep, what he said. Colnagos are great riding frames, you won't be disappointed.

Remember you are riding, not the shop you seem to want to keep happy.

Big bike industry out there, if they don't understand, find a new 'pro' shop.

[rockdude]

My two cents; Z1 for carbon, Spectrum for Ti. If you are going to pay the money get something original.

[FlashUNC]

You really can't go wrong either way. I think this comes down to that ephemeral "it" factor.

If I were going custom carbon though, I'd go Parlee.

[Charles M]

The implication that all custom builders are the same and = headaches or customer service issues is very simply false.


That said, I'm not sure how many other folks have owned the bikes in question. And there are some difs...

To the OP wanting a priority on snappy climbing and Respecting the two choices, rather than tuning this into a name yer buddy thread, I would say that after having a c59(and 5 other c series) and a couple of Parlee customs and a z4 and 5 that you'll find more of the snappy climbing and road feel with the Z1sl and z5. They Parlee's will both be notably lighter feeling in most situations (as well as both being a couple 1-2-3 hundred grams lighter on the scale for frame and fork). The z1sl can be made notably stiffer and more drive responsive with substantially more road feedback and the z5 will have similar stiffness and slightly more road feedback.

All three bikes will be fairly similar in damping unless you really go hog wild on tube set stiffness for the z1.

Handling can be substantially different with custom versus Colnagos choice... That's your call.

If your priority is snappy climbing and road feel your answer is very simply Parlee... If its price or something else you're not saying that your answer might be different.


and I wouldn't think twice about going to a shop I had a good relationship with and trusted (which are the only shops I would go to). A good shop will do good work regardless of the product and a good man will appreciate your honesty in why you made your choice. Give respect and honesty.... Get respect and honesty, or move along.

[Kontact]

We are a stocking Cervelo, Parlee and Colnago dealer. My boss, who started racing in the '70s, is a sucker for light and stiff. But he grudging can't help preferring the handling of his C59 over anything else he's got. Colnago really seems to know what they're doing.

I'd get a Parlee, myself. But I have a hard time ignoring just how much acclaim Colnago's handling gets.

[laupsi]

We are a stocking Cervelo, Parlee and Colnago dealer. My boss, who started racing in the '70s, is a sucker for light and stiff. But he grudging can't help preferring the handling of his C59 over anything else he's got. Colnago really seems to know what they're doing.

I'd get a Parlee, myself. But I have a hard time ignoring just how much acclaim Colnago's handling gets.

this is really interesting given the worst ever ride experience I've had on any personally owned frame was on a newly purcahsed, bought new by me, Colgano Master Light back in the early 90's. Simply put I hated to ride this bike and at the time I wanted fast, agile and stiff. Yes it was the correct size but the angles and handling simply fell flat. Just my $.02

[Climb01742]

Also, I have ridden the C59 and a M10.

i'm curious: how did the two 'nagos compare? what tilted you toward the c59? thanks and best of luck with whatever you choose.;)

[firerescuefin]

this is really interesting given the worst ever ride experience I've had on any personally owned frame was on a newly purcahsed, bought new by me, Colgano Master Light back in the early 90's. Simply put I hated to ride this bike and at the time I wanted fast, agile and stiff. Yes it was the correct size but the angles and handling simply fell flat. Just my $.02

Can't compare a master light and a c59.

[Fixed]

Was it the master light that had a. 165 l.b. weight limit ?
Just wondering
Cheers. Tecnos I think was the frame ?

[Climb01742]

Give respect and honesty.... Get respect and honesty.

true dat.

[Charles M]

Was it the master light that had a. 165 l.b. weight limit ?
Just wondering
Cheers.

Tecnos.
160

[laupsi]

Can't compare a master light and a c59.

my point was that you can't buy into the hype, "it's a colnago, they know what they're doing". I did at the time and got burned!

[jlwdm]

Was it the master light that had a. 165 l.b. weight limit ?
Just wondering
Cheers. Tecnos I think was the frame ?

Yes Tecnos 165 lbs. I rode mine at over 200 lbs for a number of years.

Jeff

[firerescuefin]

my point was that you can't buy into the hype, "it's a colnago, they know what they're doing". I did at the time and got burned!

My point was that a current shop guy said a the c59 was a great bike... And your response was you had a master light once...and it sucked. There is just not a strong corelation there given 20 years and differences in materials and manufacturing methods

[nicrump]

custom is custom as one said but even though you trust your fitter, just let him fit you.

my advice is find a builder than can design for that fit. competent fabrication is the easy part. competent design is what will make the custom route sing.

[laupsi]

My point was that a current shop guy said a the c59 was a great bike... And your response was you had a master light once...and it sucked. There is just not a strong corelation there given 20 years and differences in materials and manufacturing methods

yes there are many off the shelf great carbon rides, I have one. before this one I got one, (purchased another, same type & brand new), and the top tube cracked w/in 6 months. got a repacement, still love the bike and the ride on the replacement. I could be wrong but my guess is that a custom do-dad isn't going to fail quite as readily as one from the big manufacturers.

not harping on the type of frame at all, I think the bigger question is the "who made it" and not the "type of frame/material, ect".

[dumbod]

With all due respect to your LBS buddy, have you considered that he's the problem? There's a lot to criticize about Serotta but this is the first time I've heard someone who didn't like the final product. Any custom builder is only as good as the fitter - this brings your LBS's fitting ability into question. If they couldn't fit a Serotta properly, why do you think that they would be any better at fitting a Parlee?

Personally, I'd go with the Parlee (depending on the price difference of course.) I have Z4 that I love and I have an LBS that I trust completely. YMMV

[jimcav]

I had every version of the c-series up to and including the c50HP, I felt they excelled on really long (4+ hr) rides, but I always disliked the lack of "snappiness" so always ended up selling them. From what you describe as your preferred riding, unless the c59 is completely different than the c40/c50 then it is simply not the bike that fits what you say you like to do when riding.
TIME I'd say yes, Colnago, no
also I actually test rode a parlee back in 2005, and ended up getting a crumpton i never even rode (and not built for me, but the geo was right), loved it. I've gone through lots of bikes, and the ones i regret selling: pegoretti marcelo, crumton sl, spectrum super ti, kirk jks

good luck with your decision. fYI chainlove has the pinarello prince for 2199 popping up now and then. I had one, rode it up and down mt palomar, and it was a blast.

jim
The implication that all custom builders are the same and = headaches or customer service issues is very simply false.


That said, I'm not sure how many other folks have owned the bikes in question. And there are some difs...

To the OP wanting a priority on snappy climbing and Respecting the two choices, rather than tuning this into a name yer buddy thread, I would say that after having a c59(and 5 other c series) and a couple of Parlee customs and a z4 and 5 that you'll find more of the snappy climbing and road feel with the Z1sl and z5. They Parlee's will both be notably lighter feeling in most situations (as well as both being a couple 1-2-3 hundred grams lighter on the scale for frame and fork). The z1sl can be made notably stiffer and more drive responsive with substantially more road feedback and the z5 will have similar stiffness and slightly more road feedback.

All three bikes will be fairly similar in damping unless you really go hog wild on tube set stiffness for the z1.

Handling can be substantially different with custom versus Colnagos choice... That's your call.

If your priority is snappy climbing and road feel your answer is very simply Parlee... If its price or something else you're not saying that your answer might be different.


and I wouldn't think twice about going to a shop I had a good relationship with and trusted (which are the only shops I would go to). A good shop will do good work regardless of the product and a good man will appreciate your honesty in why you made your choice. Give respect and honesty.... Get respect and honesty, or move along.

[sfscott]

i'm curious: how did the two 'nagos compare? what tilted you toward the c59? thanks and best of luck with whatever you choose.;)

I found the M10 a bit more harsh and less road feel. According to the shop where I demo'd, he thinks of a Dogma2 being a 10 on the stiffness scale, a M10 as a 9 and the C59 as a 8.5-9.

[slidey]

OT:
Ok, I'm not going to go into those numbers since I've never ridden any of those bikes...but I personally dislike the overly cryptic geometry of the Dogma, it makes the Noah's geometry look subtly elegant (which it isn't, what it is though is shouty yet beautiful, to me).

But, I've never understood the inverse proportionality of harshness and stiffness. Intuitively, isn't being stiff imply the ride is expected to be harsh? My reasoning is that if a bike is stiff, there is no flexing whatsoever to let efficient and immediate power transfer to take place, since no flexing it doesn't absorb as much road vibes as a flexing bike with same material would, which means some amount of comfort has to be forsaken. What am I missing out here?

I found the M10 a bit more harsh and less road feel. According to the shop where I demo'd, he thinks of a Dogma2 being a 10 on the stiffness scale, a M10 as a 9 and the C59 as a 8.5-9.

[beeatnik]

Sounds like the Parlee the LBS dude is suggesting is comparable in price to the c59's US MSRP. The UK Colnago is a little over $4000. Wrenchscience has the C59 at $5800 ($6300/w tax for a CA resident).

How is this an apples to apples comparison? Are subjective considerations worth an extra 2 grand? If you rode the Parlee for a week, you'd probably love it. If you rode the C59 for a week, you'd love it as well. Would the love for the Parlee be worth 2 grand plus?

[1centaur]

"Snap" is a tough one, since one man's snap is another man's harsh, though lighter equals more snap is going to be true within the functional weight and stiffness range, I think.

I have two Colnagos and two Parlees. The Asian Colnago (the one before the M10) is lighter, stiffer and has more snap than the Italian Colnago (an EP). I'll wager Pez is right on the C59.

The Z1x and Z5 are both excellently constructed bikes and Parlee's warranty reputation is extremely good (and rarely needed, from what I've read). Agree with Pez that Parlees are likely to be lighter and stiffer than the C59 (only read reviews of that), though the Z5 under a large or powerful rider might show some flex as a concession to its very light weight.

I think both bikes would ride great (big fan of Colnago geometry) and you would be very happy with them, which suggests buying the 'Nag and saving the money. But in 2 years you will be 2 models old in Colnago while the Parlee will probably continue to be produced in its current form and is designed to be more timeless. Moreover, with custom paint and custom geometry and tube sets picked for your snappy preference, the Parlee will feel more special to you. If you're an easy stock fit your custom will also be a fairly easy re-sale. So if the money is not a big deal, and the fitter is genuinely good, I'd go custom in your shoes, but NOT because the LBS recommended it, that's key.

And of course Nick Crumpton could also build you a fantastic, snappy bike, but then what would you tell the LBS :)

[Climb01742]

i'm not sure what is more surprising (and appreciated): a civilized thread about carbon and custom bikes. or simply a civilized thread about anything!;) kudos to everyone.

[Kontact]

I think the idea that is getting missed in this thread is that every builder - stock or custom - has a handling philosophy that will come through regardless of who the bike is made for. Tom at Spectrum likes neutral trail, for instance, and your Spectrum custom will probably have that feature.

A fitter should have absolutely nothing to do with the ride and handling design of a custom. If they do, the builder has failed in their portion of the job - designing a custom bike. Serotta, Spectrum, Colnago, Parlee, etc have reputations for things like ride and handling because they have a consistent design philosophy.

As for the '90s Colnago - bad era for that company. Many frames were built without mitering, etc. Who knows what the actual geometry was like.

[professerr]

How's that warranty service from overseas????

I purchased a set of Dura Ace C24 wheels from Wiggle. The rear hub bearings were rough when I got them. I rode them anyway and they were a mess 200 miles later. A couple of emails to Wiggle, and they sent DHL to my address, picked up the both wheels, and sent a replacement set all in 8 days total. And they were totally professional, polite and efficient. I love my LBS, but Wiggle was very, very easy to deal with. (The wheels were also $824, no tax and no shipping charges vs $1350 that my LBS wanted, plus $100 tax or so. That's over 75% more, total.)

[soulspinner]

I think the idea that is getting missed in this thread is that every builder - stock or custom - has a handling philosophy that will come through regardless of who the bike is made for. Tom at Spectrum likes neutral trail, for instance, and your Spectrum custom will probably have that feature.

A fitter should have absolutely nothing to do with the ride and handling design of a custom. If they do, the builder has failed in their portion of the job - designing a custom bike. Serotta, Spectrum, Colnago, Parlee, etc have reputations for things like ride and handling because they have a consistent design philosophy.

As for the '90s Colnago - bad era for that company. Many frames were built without mitering, etc. Who knows what the actual geometry was like.

Doesnt the fitter place the person on the bike in such a way weight distribution is determined? That doesnt affect handling?

[laupsi]

As for the '90s Colnago - bad era for that company. Many frames were built without mitering, etc. Who knows what the actual geometry was like.

good point, I suppose much has changed on all fronts since the early 90's

[Doug Fattic]

Doesnt the fitter place the person on the bike in such a way weight distribution is determined? That doesnt affect handling?

The fitter establishes the 3 contact points of the rider. The designer determines what tubes should be used and where those tubes should go that supports those contact points. And the builder assembles tubes to match the design. Of course how those 3 job descriptions are separated into one or more people is marketing strategy. As a custom steel builder, I preform all three of those tasks but they can be divided into specialities for reasons like the customer lives somewhere else or there is a history of injuries that a certain fitter understands how to deal with better.

[fuzzalow]

I had every version of the c-series up to and including the c50HP, I felt they excelled on really long (4+ hr) rides, but I always disliked the lack of "snappiness" so always ended up selling them.

The sizing and the fit effects how the rider weight is laid along the wheelbase and the weight distribution effects handling and the perception of "snappiness"

I can speak to this because my first carbon 'Nag was a c-40 in size 56cm, which was the size equivalent of the 55cm c-t-c steel frames I always rode. That frame rode with more stability and lethargic "snappiness-less" than was ideal for me.

I sized down to 54cm on my next Colnago c-50 and it rides with more perceived "snappiness". If quicker handling is desired, size down. Attributing handling characteristics across roughly equivalent race-type geometry frames is guesswork without knowing the fit numbers. Very easy to alter the handling with a bad fit, or as was my case with my c-40, a too-big fit.

[Kontact]

Doesnt the fitter place the person on the bike in such a way weight distribution is determined? That doesnt affect handling?

While the fitter should know where they are putting the rider relative to the type of bicycle the fit is for, the weight distribution is a product of frame design given the shape, weight and kontact points of the rider. So I would say "no", that's the builder's job after he gets the fit data.

None of this happens in a vacuum, though. The fitter has to know what they're doing and the builder may have built a certain trust with some fitters, or have questions on the fit data from others. But at the end of the day the builder's name is on the bike and the bike handles because of him or her.

[Climb01742]

to return to the OP's original question...

i've had (um) a few bikes. not many truly stand out. but if one of your goals is to fly up hills a bit more easily (especially a series of rollers) one bike does stand out for exactly that: a parlee Z1. i'm at a loss to explain it but no bike i've had climbed quite as magically as my hampsten-designed Z1. it just went. it was something special.

a Z1 is probably too big a budget stretch for me today, but i would be curious if a Z5 could deliver much of what a Z1 does for much less coin.

that said, i also have a c50. it doesn't climb nearly as well as the Z1 did. nor does it flirt with many 'magical' adjectives, but lordy, it is stable, predictable, and confidence-inspiring as you power through the miles. it's exciting in its very unexcitingness, if that makes any sense. it's perhaps more well-rounded, but not as memorable or uniquely gifted as a Z1.

not much help, am I?

[Waldo]

I adore my custom Spectrum Ti and I love my off-the-rack mid-'90s Colnago Monotitan. Both ride great. If the 'nago had seat tube bottle bosses mounted lower on the tube so my legs wouldn't scrape the bottle when I pedal I'd ride it even more.

[Waldo]

Snip: As for the '90s Colnago - bad era for that company. Many frames were built without mitering, etc. Who knows what the actual geometry was like.

I don't know the actual geometry of my ~'96 'Nago Monotitan, built in Russia to boot, but it's an awesome riding bike and I don't care if its geometry jives with geometry charts.

[Kontact]

Snip:

I don't know the actual geometry of my ~'96 'Nago Monotitan, built in Russia to boot, but it's an awesome riding bike and I don't care if its geometry jives with geometry charts.

I wasn't saying that all Colnagos from then sucked. Just that there were some bad examples out there.

[oldpotatoe]

I purchased a set of Dura Ace C24 wheels from Wiggle. The rear hub bearings were rough when I got them. I rode them anyway and they were a mess 200 miles later. A couple of emails to Wiggle, and they sent DHL to my address, picked up the both wheels, and sent a replacement set all in 8 days total. And they were totally professional, polite and efficient. I love my LBS, but Wiggle was very, very easy to deal with. (The wheels were also $824, no tax and no shipping charges vs $1350 that my LBS wanted, plus $100 tax or so. That's over 75% more, total.)

Do ya suppose the LBS would have adjusted the hubs, for free? Even if you had gotten these things from the UK?

[Charles M]

The sizing and the fit effects how the rider weight is laid along the wheelbase and the weight distribution effects handling and the perception of "snappiness"

I can speak to this because my first carbon 'Nag was a c-40 in size 56cm, which was the size equivalent of the 55cm c-t-c steel frames I always rode. That frame rode with more stability and lethargic "snappiness-less" than was ideal for me.

I sized down to 54cm on my next Colnago c-50 and it rides with more perceived "snappiness". If quicker handling is desired, size down. Attributing handling characteristics across roughly equivalent race-type geometry frames is guesswork without knowing the fit numbers. Very easy to alter the handling with a bad fit, or as was my case with my c-40, a too-big fit.

No doubt that a wrong size effected feel in your specific case, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that different bikes, even of the same size / fit can have very different responsiveness...

Fit /size/ weight distribution "can" effect feel, but it's not the sole determining factor.

Simply sizing down and putting more weight over the front end could just as easily screw up the whole works as it might in some cases give an individual the impression of "snappy"...


Back on topic, the c59 and it's Parlee counterparts are different bikes with different feel associated in the same relative size.