Happy Valley No More

[Smiley]

9 AM tomorrow they lay the hammer down on PSU.

[Smiley]

BTW Bobby Bowden wants his wins reinstated at FSU too :banana:

All his guys did was get some grade help :no:

[astaft]

I am guessing no bowl games for 3-5 years and maybe some financial payout.

[FlashUNC]

Has to be a mix of no bowls/TV, and a large reduction in scholarships.

Reports are it won't be an SMU death penalty, but its gotta be pretty close.

[rwsaunders]

I'm going to be riding the Keystone Country Ride next weekend which midpoints in State College. I'll let you know if they have removed Peachy Paterno from the ice cream menu at the Creamery.

[rab]

I am becomining more questioning of whether this is something the NCAA should stay out of.

Haven't read the Freeh report, but from the reports read so far, this is a criminal affair, and no specific NCAA violations occurred. And to that I say let the law punish those who should be punished, civil and criminal. (as has and will continue to happen)

The argument for "lack of institutional control" is nebulous and lacks specific definition, and if applied in this situation would seem to create a bit of a slippery slope. If no specific NCAA violations occurred including the LOIC, then where would they draw the line for any other criminal issues in future cases? Or even non-criminal issues, anything the NCAA could arbitrarily decide shows lack of control in any area of a school involved with the NCAA.
With even NCAA legal experts saying that this doesn't meet the requirements (whatever they actually are) for LOIC, it seems like the NCAA is trying to assert more of a Roger Godell/NFL control, which is a concern as they have not necessarily been very consistent in the past. And in this situation have moved extremely quickly considering the timeline for release of information and pending legal actions.

The idea I saw and thought was pretty good was to truly have PSU become an example as mentioned in this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--fbc-college-football-needs-to-be-reined-in.html

Guess we will find out shortly, saw the NCAA is letting loose tomorrow morning. This could be a major turning point for many different groups.

[bironi]

I'm betting on the death penalty, and I'd be behind it 100 percent.

[firerescuefin]

When the President of the School, head of Security, and the head football coach take part in a cover up that goes back to the mid 90s.....in order to protect the football program, and themselves...and the losers are countless young children that due to the inaction were raped, sodomized, etc....I think that qualifies for lack of institutional control. They weren't protecting the chess club or the swim team.

You really should reed the Freeh report.


I am becomining more questioning of whether this is something the NCAA should stay out of.

Haven't read the Freeh report, but from the reports read so far, this is a criminal affair, and no specific NCAA violations occurred. And to that I say let the law punish those who should be punished, civil and criminal. (as has and will continue to happen)

The argument for "lack of institutional control" is nebulous and lacks specific definition, and if applied in this situation would seem to create a bit of a slippery slope. If no specific NCAA violations occurred including the LOIC, then where would they draw the line for any other criminal issues in future cases? Or even non-criminal issues, anything the NCAA could arbitrarily decide shows lack of control in any area of a school involved with the NCAA.
With even NCAA legal experts saying that this doesn't meet the requirements (whatever they actually are) for LOIC, it seems like the NCAA is trying to assert more of a Roger Godell/NFL control, which is a concern as they have not necessarily been very consistent in the past. And in this situation have moved extremely quickly considering the timeline for release of information and pending legal actions.

The idea I saw and thought was pretty good was to truly have PSU become an example as mentioned in this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--fbc-college-football-needs-to-be-reined-in.html

Guess we will find out shortly, saw the NCAA is letting loose tomorrow morning. This could be a major turning point for many different groups.

[rugbysecondrow]

Penn State the University and the football program purposefully hid the truth about the rapes and molestations strictly to benefit the program and the university and to shield it from any harm which might befall it. They placed the program above the safety of the children harmed and they not only enabled but they facilitated a pedophile and rapist who operated out of the state university, a person who then went on to commit further acts of violence at that university.

This is worse than any donor scandal, any alumni or booster payments, any selling of memorabilia or schwag...this was a university and a football program hiding and facilitating a known rapist on their campus. Outrageous!

Penn State does not deserve a football program. Period. They should lose that privilege. I am sorry for the current players, often it is the sons who bear the brunt of the sins of the fathers, and that is true here. Penn State did this to themselves. The football program did this to themselves. The program doesn't deserve to survive

[rugbysecondrow]

When the President of the School, head of Security, and the head football coach take part in a cover up that goes back to the mid 90s.....in order to protect the football program, and themselves...and the losers are countless young children that due to the inaction were raped, sodomized, etc....I think that qualifies for lack of institutional control. They weren't protecting the chess club or the swim team.

You really should reed the Freeh report.

100% agree.

Kill the program, kill it dead.

[Fixed]

Sick sad pathetic I agree with fire and ruby
Kill it

[pdmtong]

good riddance

as for JoPA...does one mistake offset 60 years os supposed good? in this case vehemently yes.

it is pathetic watching his son jay and his family grasp at straws.

this was a sanctioned atrocity and can never be allowed to happen again.

maybe the catholic church can catch a clue from this.

[rab]

When the President of the School, head of Security, and the head football coach take part in a cover up that goes back to the mid 90s.....in order to protect the football program, and themselves...and the losers are countless young children that due to the inaction were raped, sodomized, etc....I think that qualifies for lack of institutional control. They weren't protecting the chess club or the swim team.

You really should reed the Freeh report.

Thats just my point, even members of the NCAA are saying this doesn't even qualify as lack of institutional control, so while you may feel it should qualify, it doesn't seem it actually does.

Does it matter who they were protecting (chess, swim, footbal etc.) other than the victims? Not sure I get the point there.

You can shut the program down, make an example etc., but what does that really accomplish. Does it really punish those who should be punished? Ultimately it probably just punishes a bunch of truly innocent people who make their living from the university and sports programs. The guilty are going to get it at this point, I am pretty confident. Should many other people who had nothing to do with the crimes suffer the consequences of a few lousy individuals?
Seems like doing so would be to take a "kill'em all" approach.

firerescuefin - did you read the freeh report?
I am also curious about thoughts on the non-profit idea. I like that, takes some of the big business aspect out of the college sports. Almost as good as making universities about (gasp)...education!

[rugbysecondrow]

I think the NCAA will speak for itself tomorrow and will justify how and why they are punishing the university. Yes, it is the university being punished. There is collateral damage, but Penn State should have thought about that before they sheltered a known rapist and allowed him to operate on campus.

The truth is that it was an institutional failure, when levels of management and oversight that far up are the ones hiding the truth and protecting the criminal, it is no longer lone individuals but rather the collective of those individuals actings as the university as a whole. Its not like they were out on their own time and made mistakes, but rather all directly related to the safety and security of their university. They failed the people, the community, the foot ball players. Penn State did this, don't blame the NCAA.

Yes, it is sad, but sadness is part of life. When a criminal gets punished and sent to prison, there is collateral damage with children, parents and spouses, left behind, but we don't blame the Judge, we blame the offender, the guilty party. Penn State is the guilty party and they deserve their punishment.

Thats just my point, even members of the NCAA are saying this doesn't even qualify as lack of institutional control, so while you may feel it should qualify, it doesn't seem it actually does.

Does it matter who they were protecting (chess, swim, footbal etc.) other than the victims? Not sure I get the point there.

You can shut the program down, make an example etc., but what does that really accomplish. Does it really punish those who should be punished? Ultimately it probably just punishes a bunch of truly innocent people who make their living from the university and sports programs. The guilty are going to get it at this point, I am pretty confident. Should many other people who had nothing to do with the crimes suffer the consequences of a few lousy individuals?
Seems like doing so would be to take a "kill'em all" approach.

firerescuefin - did you read the freeh report?
I am also curious about thoughts on the non-profit idea. I like that, takes some of the big business aspect out of the college sports. Almost as good as making universities about (gasp)...education!

[firerescuefin]

Hey Rab...I have not read all 267 pages...but have scanned through it and read quite a few summaries.

The NCAA policy regarding institutional control could have never foreseen an event of this scope (pretty understandable)

http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

In a recent interview, NCAA president Mark Emmert had the following to say:

"This is completely different than an impermissible benefits scandal like happened at SMU, or anything else we've dealt with," Emmert said. "This is as systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem. There have been people that said this wasn't a football scandal. Well it was more than a football scandal, much more than a football scandal. It was that but much more. And we'll have to figure out exactly what the right penalties are. I don't know that past precedent makes particularly good sense in this case, because it's really an unprecedented problem."


I look to SMU and USC (recently) as the 2 big cases that cite lack of institutional control. Both cited that the school and powers to be were aware of the violations, yet did nothing (or not enough) to rectify them.

The fact that "if you see or know of children being violated" is not in the NCAA manual does not mean a lack of institutional control did not exist....When you let criminal activity such as repeated sexual assault to minors go on under your watch in order to protect a football program....what else would you call it. As Rugby mentioned the sins of the fathers should fall to the sons in this case. The University appointed and empowered these men. It's hard for me to believe (actually impossible) that this was not the method of operation at the highest levels within Penn State. If you're going to cover up this, where's your line of demarcation???

Rick Reilly wrote this last week. I think its a great summary:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

Thats just my point, even members of the NCAA are saying this doesn't even qualify as lack of institutional control, so while you may feel it should qualify, it doesn't seem it actually does.

Does it matter who they were protecting (chess, swim, footbal etc.) other than the victims? Not sure I get the point there.

You can shut the program down, make an example etc., but what does that really accomplish. Does it really punish those who should be punished? Ultimately it probably just punishes a bunch of truly innocent people who make their living from the university and sports programs. The guilty are going to get it at this point, I am pretty confident. Should many other people who had nothing to do with the crimes suffer the consequences of a few lousy individuals?
Seems like doing so would be to take a "kill'em all" approach.

firerescuefin - did you read the freeh report?
I am also curious about thoughts on the non-profit idea. I like that, takes some of the big business aspect out of the college sports. Almost as good as making universities about (gasp)...education!

[bcm119]

As a PSU alum, perhaps I'm biased, but I would have the same opinion if it were any university: I don't understand the logic of punishing the entire PSU athletic program and town of State College for the crimes of a handful people.
If PSU football is killed, it would end all sports scholarships and probably most womens sports, if not a few mens sports programs. It would have a catastrophic effect on the economy of State College, and surrounding Centre County. Look, these were unprecedented, disgusting crimes. But they weren't committed by the entire student-athlete body nor the entire community of State College and surroundings. Unless you were a PSU-hater to begin with, your anger and calls for punishment should be directed at the guilty people involved, not innocent students and townspeople. Enough lives have already been ruined. As for making an example of PSU for others to see, I somehow highly doubt that other programs are waiting to see if PSU goes down before deciding to commit similar crimes. PSU has already gone down; why bring the innocents down with it now?

[firerescuefin]

As a PSU alum, perhaps I'm biased, but I would have the same opinion if it were any university: I don't understand the logic of punishing the entire PSU athletic program and town of State College for the crimes of a handful people.
If PSU football is killed, it would end all sports scholarships and probably most womens sports, if not a few mens sports programs. It would have a catastrophic effect on the economy of State College, and surrounding Centre County. Look, these were unprecedented, disgusting crimes. But they weren't committed by the entire student-athlete body nor the entire community of State College and surroundings. Unless you were a PSU-hater to begin with, your anger and calls for punishment should be directed at the guilty people involved, not innocent students and townspeople. Enough lives have already been ruined. As for making an example of PSU for others to see, I somehow highly doubt that other programs are waiting to see if PSU goes down before deciding to commit similar crimes. PSU has already gone down; why bring the innocents down with it now?

BCM...I am definitely not a hater...and to use "hater" in this instance is pretty weak IMO, given the horror of what took place there. But a quick question. Just punishing the people involved just doesn't seem enough for me, and apparently for most people. This needs to be so distasteful/painful to PSU (or any school that would be involved) that the chances of this happening again would be minimal. Just taking out the trash doesn't seem enough to me....Would be like firing the CEO and VP of a company, when the real problem was cultural and extended far beyond them.

Thoughts???

[rwsaunders]

If those that participated in the coverup go unpunished, what good does sanctioning the university do?

Start by convicting the former AD and security officer, continue with the former president, have the Paterno family return the $11.5MM early retirement "gift" and continue down the line with any other parties that were involved.

Just out of curiosity, what the does the NCAA do with the $30MM fine once collected?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/22/us/penn-state-paterno-statue/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[rugbysecondrow]

Tough. Penn State did this to themselves, to the community. The community should look directly to the university for explanation. I live in Maryland so lots of PSU grads, if I were one of them I would want to know how they got their prioritys so far out of whack.

In addition, it seems you are saying PSU football is too important to punish or let fail, but that is the attitude which the university had and that is the exact attitude which needs to be punished. That attitude led to lies, cover ups and corruption. Again, the reason to kill it.

Lastly, not a handful of people, we are talk about people the most associated with the university makes decisions on behalf of the university. They were not acting as individuals but as reps of their programs and the university.

As a PSU alum, perhaps I'm biased, but I would have the same opinion if it were any university: I don't understand the logic of punishing the entire PSU athletic program and town of State College for the crimes of a handful people.
If PSU football is killed, it would end all sports scholarships and probably most womens sports, if not a few mens sports programs. It would have a catastrophic effect on the economy of State College, and surrounding Centre County. Look, these were unprecedented, disgusting crimes. But they weren't committed by the entire student-athlete body nor the entire community of State College and surroundings. Unless you were a PSU-hater to begin with, your anger and calls for punishment should be directed at the guilty people involved, not innocent students and townspeople. Enough lives have already been ruined. As for making an example of PSU for others to see, I somehow highly doubt that other programs are waiting to see if PSU goes down before deciding to commit similar crimes. PSU has already gone down; why bring the innocents down with it now?

[bcm119]

BCM...I am definitely not a hater...and to use "hater" in this instance is pretty weak IMO, given the horror of what took place there. But a quick question. Just punishing the people involved just doesn't seem enough for me, and apparently for most people. This needs to be so distasteful/painful to PSU (or any school that would be involved) that the chances of this happening again would be minimal. Just taking out the trash doesn't seem enough to me....Would be like firing the CEO and VP of a company, when the real problem was cultural and extended far beyond them.

Thoughts???

Well, I know there are *a lot* of PSU haters out there, and to not acknowledge that some of the outrage and calls to shut the whole place down is rooted in pre-existing bias, you're ignoring basic human nature, as inappropriate as it may be to mention it now.

I think we have a simple disagreement about what level of collateral damage is appropriate in this case. Do you think the entire university should be shut down? How about dismantling the stadium? Burning down State College? If you think that's going too far, you must have have some consideration for collateral damage, and in this case I think we just disagree on how much is appropriate. As I stated before, I would like to see less of it than you.

[Louis]

IMO it's pretty simple: PSU Football was "too big to fail" so they did whatever they could to hush things up, until they couldn't anymore.

[firerescuefin]

How about dismantling the stadium? Burning down State College?

I asked a question...you responded with the above...That's not where I was going. I simply said more than just firing a president and a couple of board members is in order IMO. As an alum, I am curious as to what you think is "enough"

[rab]

Hey Rab...I have not read all 267 pages...but have scanned through it and read quite a few summaries.

The NCAA policy regarding institutional control could have never foreseen an event of this scope (pretty understandable)

http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

In a recent interview, NCAA president Mark Emmert had the following to say:

"This is completely different than an impermissible benefits scandal like happened at SMU, or anything else we've dealt with," Emmert said. "This is as systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem. There have been people that said this wasn't a football scandal. Well it was more than a football scandal, much more than a football scandal. It was that but much more. And we'll have to figure out exactly what the right penalties are. I don't know that past precedent makes particularly good sense in this case, because it's really an unprecedented problem."


I look to SMU and USC (recently) as the 2 big cases that cite lack of institutional control. Both cited that the school and powers to be were aware of the violations, yet did nothing (or not enough) to rectify them.

The fact that "if you see or know of children being violated" is not in the NCAA manual does not mean a lack of institutional control did not exist....When you let criminal activity such as repeated sexual assault to minors go on under your watch in order to protect a football program....what else would you call it. As Rugby mentioned the sins of the fathers should fall to the sons in this case. The University appointed and empowered these men. It's hard for me to believe (actually impossible) that this was not the method of operation at the highest levels within Penn State. If you're going to cover up this, where's your line of demarcation???

Rick Reilly wrote this last week. I think its a great summary:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

I eventually plan to read the freeh report, when I have the time and stomach for it. Have an attorney friend that read it and offered some interesting comments and piqued my curiousity.

My whole point with the NCAA is that it's purpose is to provide for a level playing field and fairness in collegiate sports. This is way beyond the scope of the NCAA and it's original intentions for sure, as thus the criminal actions should be dealt with via the criminal legal system. When members of the NCAA ranks are seriously disagreeing with the approach based on institutional control it should definitely raise some warning signs.

Not that they should be completely uninvolved, but let them address the issues they were designed to oversee. I completely agree with Emmert in that there are really no precedents on which to base actions, and they seem to be taking unprecedened courses of action, not sure if this is good or bad. I think this will ultimately speak volumes about the NCAA, so we'll have to continue some of this tomorrow after we see what they come up with! Supposedly "unprecedented" penalites.

As for the Reilly article - that is a great reference and I think there are a LOT of people in Happy Valley that feel the same. And then some. Elevating anyone to saintly status...just wrong. Years of media hype and deification of a mere mortal, and those who fully bought into that could arguably deserve to suffer some of the consequences as well.

I do disagree with the idea of sons paying for their father's sins...this in reality is just one more wrong in this whole sordid affair. What is the good in that? Especially when it can be controlled. Direct the weight of the punishment directly on to the heads of those responsible, hit them as hard as possible and let it serve as an example to others. The people accountable for the actions should be held accountable. Those who appointed and oversaw these people should be scrutinized/punished as warranted as well. And the university will pay no doubt. already is, and when the civil suits pile on they will pay much more financially.

But to say everyone around and underneath, all the way down to the students and local community, should also suffer just seems to be a sweeping, vengeful course of action. Again, what good does it do? I realize there are a lot of things in the world that are not right, "fair", etc., but to simply say that is just the way it is when it is something that can be, at least somewhat, controlled, is to me an indictment of our own characters and our ability to judge and act. So that I will disagree with at this point.

[rab]

I asked a question...you responded with the above...That's not where I was going. I simply said more than just firing a president and a couple of board members is in order IMO. As an alum, I am curious as to what you think is "enough"

So what do we do with every other murderer, rapist, pedophile etc. in the country that gets convicted of such crimes? Punish them, their family, their community...where do you stop and what is enough? Point being, there is a lot of outrage, but punishing an institution for the wrongs of individuals creates a fundamental dilema. Sure they were top execs (essentially), but that doesn't mean the secretary getting their coffee should be crucified along side of them either.

What would your opinion be if your job was terminated because a manager/owner was convicted of a crime you had nothing to do with?

I think you have to punish those who were involved and stop it there. Isn't going to do the victims any good to do more I suspect, although I would be curious to know what they would want to happen.

[monkeybanana86]

good riddance

as for JoPA...does one mistake offset 60 years os supposed good? in this case vehemently yes.

it is pathetic watching his son jay and his family grasp at straws.


i totally agree. boo for all those protesters that came out. a lot of people failed there.

[bcm119]

I asked a question...you responded with the above...That's not where I was going. I simply said more than just firing a president and a couple of board members is in order IMO. As an alum, I am curious as to what you think is "enough"
Not trying to be an ass, I just used an extreme example to illustrate the point that collateral damage is something everyone considers when deciding what the punishment should be; we have different opinions on how much is too much.

You're sort of asking the wrong alum if you want an opinion of a die hard PSU fan... I never gave a crap about football, and frankly I was always annoyed by the zealotry surrounding JoePa... I spent my Saturdays in the fall hiking or riding my bike. But as someone who befriended many locals and faculty kids, I have a connection to the community around PSU, and I admit to that bias. I would hate to see hardworking, well-intentioned folks who rely on the local economy that football supports get taken down by this. I am all for punishing all those involved to the full extent of the law (and I suppose two of the offenders are already accounted for, one being dead and the other in prison), but I don't know enough details or have enough legal knowledge to know exactly what that can realistically be. I do know that no matter what happens, PSU football will be irrelevant for a long time to come, and no one can give the victims their lives back. I guess I'd generally prefer a more personal style of punishment, such as what rwsaunders suggests above, rather than a broad brushed systematic punishment.

[rab]

And to add to that, I would like to see PSU as a whole step and and set an example, own up to the horrors committed and covered up within the institution, and as opposed to trying to sweep the whole thing away over time, continue to show support helping those who have been abused. They have already taken some good initial steps which at face value appear to be more than just token gestures.
Let them play football and take all of the earnings and dump it back into charities supporting abused victims and their families. Make their sporting programs more than just wins and money for the university. With a program of that size, that could be a big chunk of money that would actually go to helping people. Be nice to see some help mixed in with all of the need to punish. Let Spanier, Curly, Schulz and the Board of Trustees hand deliver the checks. (on work release)

[firerescuefin]

And to add to that, I would like to see PSU as a whole step and and set an example, own up to the horrors committed and covered up within the institution, and as opposed to trying to sweep the whole thing away over time, continue to show support helping those who have been abused. They have already taken some good initial steps which at face value appear to be more than just token gestures.
Let them play football and take all of the earnings and dump it back into charities supporting abused victims and their families. Make their sporting programs more than just wins and money for the university. With a program of that size, that could be a big chunk of money that would actually go to helping people. Be nice to see some help mixed in with all of the need to punish. Let Spanier, Curly, Schulz and the Board of Trustees hand deliver the checks. (on work release)

Rab....I like what you wrote above. I don't feel like PSU has been in front of this at all. The board was in a heated argument the other day whether JoPa's statue should come down...as if that was a debate. Get in front of this...Get so far in front of it that you give your detractors little to talk about or criticize. As of now, Paterno's name is going to stay on the library....That's not getting in front of it. Since day one of the scandal...it's been spin control. Pathetic...and it plays directly into the hands of those that are calling for the gauntlet.

[bcm119]

Tough. Penn State did this to themselves, to the community. The community should look directly to the university for explanation. I live in Maryland so lots of PSU grads, if I were one of them I would want to know how they got their prioritys so far out of whack.

....

That's an easy one: greed and ego. The question is, will their mistakes continue to affect more innocent peoples lives as justice plays out, or will it be served in a manner that punishes the guilty and spares the rest of the community?

[firerescuefin]

So what do we do with every other murderer, rapist, pedophile etc. in the country that gets convicted of such crimes? Punish them, their family, their community...where do you stop and what is enough? Point being, there is a lot of outrage, but punishing an institution for the wrongs of individuals creates a fundamental dilema. Sure they were top execs (essentially), but that doesn't mean the secretary getting their coffee should be crucified along side of them either.

What would your opinion be if your job was terminated because a manager/owner was convicted of a crime you had nothing to do with?

I think you have to punish those who were involved and stop it there. Isn't going to do the victims any good to do more I suspect, although I would be curious to know what they would want to happen.

When you hire a school president and a coach...and give them the power that was given in this case...and you create a culture (or allow a culture to form) that enables them to act (especially Paterno) the way that they did, you (the collective/specifically the Board) need to be held responsible...not just Paterno,Spanier, Schultz, and Curley. Those board members knew the score and how things worked at PSU (with regard to Paterno and the power he wielded)...and many of them probably knew something or had heard something about Sandusky at some point, which is why I made my point above....that the punishment must be so distasteful to PSU that other institutions will step back and get their own Sh*t in order. I am not calling for the death penalty, but I wouldn't be apalled if it was called for.

[cfox]

When the President of the School, head of Security, and the head football coach take part in a cover up that goes back to the mid 90s.....in order to protect the football program, and themselves...and the losers are countless young children that due to the inaction were raped, sodomized, etc....I think that qualifies for lack of institutional control. They weren't protecting the chess club or the swim team.

You really should reed the Freeh report.

Well said.

[Ray]

I think they should shut it down. Maybe not permanently, but long enough to make it hurt. Yes, innocents will be hurt by shutting it down - there's ALWAYS collateral damage with problems this big. But there's simply no other rational response. When a football (or any other) program gets so big and so powerful that obvious child sexual abuse is covered up and allowed to continue to protect the program and the brand, it needs to be shut down. As punishment to the school, who was on the football money tit for too long and became too dependent on it. And as a very serious warning to all of the other oversized college sports programs in the US who place so much emphasis on the athletic program and the money it generates that it doesn't address other issues that should be of far more importance to an "educational" institution.

I doubt the NCAA will go far enough, because their hands are surgically attached to the same cookie jar - they'll slap 'em on the wrist under the rationale that this particular set of crimes do not directly relate to recruiting violations or boosters giving money under the table. But this is the most egregious moral and ethical lapse / violation I've ever heard of with any college athletic program and it should be punished accordingly.

And I live in PA and AM a Penn State fan, for whatever that matters...

-Ray

[FlashUNC]

If this case is not the most egregious example of lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

At every turn, senior administrators in the football program an university pushed to cover this up rather than look out for the kids. Every single turn.

The football program was more important than anything else.

So yeah, I'm fully in favor of burning it down, metaphorically speaking.

And as an enormous UNC basketball fan, if something like this came out at Carolina, I'd want the same thing done. Otherwise you're just treating the symptoms, not the disease.

[Aaron O]

If this case is not the most egregious example of lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

At every turn, senior administrators in the football program an university pushed to cover this up rather than look out for the kids. Every single turn.

The football program was more important than anything else.

So yeah, I'm fully in favor of burning it down, metaphorically speaking.

And as an enormous UNC basketball fan, if something like this came out at Carolina, I'd want the same thing done. Otherwise you're just treating the symptoms, not the disease.
I'm not trying to troll with this comment, but the Catholic hierarchy, from the pope on down?

I think what both stories illustrate is that the first goal of an organization is to defend the organization and institutional survival. Somehow modern bureaucratic organizations and hierarchies insulate people from the ramifications of their decisions and there's always another tier to blame. It makes it easier to defend poor behavior - "well the guy above me should deal with it, i escalated the issue appropriately".

[rugbysecondrow]

I eventually plan to read the freeh report, when I have the time and stomach for it. Have an attorney friend that read it and offered some interesting comments and piqued my curiousity.

My whole point with the NCAA is that it's purpose is to provide for a level playing field and fairness in collegiate sports. This is way beyond the scope of the NCAA and it's original intentions for sure, as thus the criminal actions should be dealt with via the criminal legal system. When members of the NCAA ranks are seriously disagreeing with the approach based on institutional control it should definitely raise some warning signs.

Not that they should be completely uninvolved, but let them address the issues they were designed to oversee. I completely agree with Emmert in that there are really no precedents on which to base actions, and they seem to be taking unprecedened courses of action, not sure if this is good or bad. I think this will ultimately speak volumes about the NCAA, so we'll have to continue some of this tomorrow after we see what they come up with! Supposedly "unprecedented" penalites.

As for the Reilly article - that is a great reference and I think there are a LOT of people in Happy Valley that feel the same. And then some. Elevating anyone to saintly status...just wrong. Years of media hype and deification of a mere mortal, and those who fully bought into that could arguably deserve to suffer some of the consequences as well.

I do disagree with the idea of sons paying for their father's sins...this in reality is just one more wrong in this whole sordid affair. What is the good in that? Especially when it can be controlled. Direct the weight of the punishment directly on to the heads of those responsible, hit them as hard as possible and let it serve as an example to others. The people accountable for the actions should be held accountable. Those who appointed and oversaw these people should be scrutinized/punished as warranted as well. And the university will pay no doubt. already is, and when the civil suits pile on they will pay much more financially.

But to say everyone around and underneath, all the way down to the students and local community, should also suffer just seems to be a sweeping, vengeful course of action. Again, what good does it do? I realize there are a lot of things in the world that are not right, "fair", etc., but to simply say that is just the way it is when it is something that can be, at least somewhat, controlled, is to me an indictment of our own characters and our ability to judge and act. So that I will disagree with at this point.

The way football programs are punished it typically only punishes the sons. The people involved with the program act on behalf of the program. If Coach A was cheating and left, then the program is still punished for the acts of Coach A. That is just how it works in college football.

Punishments are meant to be painful and it is true that there are other people involved or impacted. Part of the reason punishments are often painful is because there is a recognition that the guilty party had a complete disregard for those involved who would be collateral damage.

Lets keep this in perspective though, it is just a football program, but it is also a program that was used as a tool for a rapist to lure young boys to the campus where the locker room was used as a place to perpetrate violent crimes. The University knew this had and was occurring and did nothing about it. The community should be more concerned about why this beloved program and university facilitated a hid and rapist and not "what about Sat football".

[jamesutiopia]

I doubt the NCAA will go far enough, because their hands are surgically attached to the same cookie jar - they'll slap 'em on the wrist under the rationale that this particular set of crimes do not directly relate to recruiting violations or boosters giving money under the table. But this is the most egregious moral and ethical lapse / violation I've ever heard of with any college athletic program and it should be punished accordingly.
I agree, but would broaden to say this is not just a failure confined the the athletic program, but with the leadership of the institution. At the highest levels PSU leadership appear to have knowingly risked the reputation of the university in an indefensible attempt to avoid bad press.

This is a fine educational institution with nearly 100,000 students (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_University) (about half of which are in State College, PA), a $4.3B/year (http://www.budget.psu.edu/openbudget/default.aspx) budget (football gets its own line item (http://www.budget.psu.edu/openbudget/DeptSumm2001.asp?adminarea=066&fy=20112012&fundtype=03&Type=B), so it's clear to see how minor a part it plays in university finances), and countless alumni with an (apparently) keen interest in supporting their alma mater during this time of crisis. In this context I find it hard to stomach financial explanations for why the football program should be considered "too big to fail" while PSU (at large) sorts out its priorities.

It is not credible that such an organization cannot replace a few tens of millions worth of annual funding, if necessary (for sports other than football) and protect the football-centric economy of its college town (if it wants to do so). I am aware that football is probably the primary interface between the school and its donors, but for at least the near future I imagine alumni will stay engaged while the football program (and university leadership) retools.

[FlashUNC]

I'm not trying to troll with this comment, but the Catholic hierarchy, from the pope on down?

I think what both stories illustrate is that the first goal of an organization is to defend the organization and institutional survival. Somehow modern bureaucratic organizations and hierarchies insulate people from the ramifications of their decisions and there's always another tier to blame. It makes it easier to defend poor behavior - "well the guy above me should deal with it, i escalated the issue appropriately".

In that case, I'm unclear as to what the Vatican itself did and didn't know about what was happening, particularly in Boston. But if they knew what was going on, then there definitely needs to be wholesale change within the organization. This kind of institutional failure, regardless of the organization, is inexcusable imo. Both in this case and the Catholic sex scandal, the leaders had a choice to do either the right thing, or the easy thing. And in both instances, they chose the easy thing.

In terms of college sports, this is orders of magnitude beyond what has happened at any other school. It makes SMU, USC and the other scandals small potatoes.

[djg]

So what do we do with every other murderer, rapist, pedophile etc. in the country that gets convicted of such crimes? Punish them, their family, their community...where do you stop and what is enough? Point being, there is a lot of outrage, but punishing an institution for the wrongs of individuals creates a fundamental dilema. Sure they were top execs (essentially), but that doesn't mean the secretary getting their coffee should be crucified along side of them either.

What would your opinion be if your job was terminated because a manager/owner was convicted of a crime you had nothing to do with?

I think you have to punish those who were involved and stop it there. Isn't going to do the victims any good to do more I suspect, although I would be curious to know what they would want to happen.

I think that the middle paragraph might point to a different answer than the one you have in mind. If a corporate entity does some serious and unlawful damage, and there's a cover-up involving management (or knowing complicity, or a willful blind eye, or even administrative direction) then it's appropriate to go after both key individual wrongdoers and the corporate entity, within the bounds of the law. If you don't, the corporate entity -- as a corporate entity -- as an institution -- may have little incentive to, say, hire the right people, implement the right institutional safeguards, etc. Yes, secretaries at Enron suffer, though they did nothing wrong, but there's no real way around that without ignoring the institutional problems. Substandard drugs, e-coli in the burgers, what have you.

There are many fine people in State College and elsewhere in the University. I was a faculty member at PSU (albeit at the med school, well down the road) throughout the '90s and knew many good people there, both in State College and in Hershey (and, to the best of my knowledge, didn't know anybody at all who committed heinous crimes against children). It's a damn shame that the decent people have been associated with this through no fault of their own, but that's not the worst shame of this, and that's not a reason to let the institution off the hook. PSU wants to run what's effectively a pro football team as a side-business, maybe that's their choice, but the institution needs to be accountable for the way that business is run.

Once upon a time, long ago, the University of Chicago had a major football program -- big 10, national power. They chucked it. No football at all for many years, and eventually a lackluster D3 program. The University did just fine as a university.

[rugbysecondrow]

$60 Million fine

Banned from post season for 4 years

reduce scholarships from 25-15 for 4 years

Vacates all wins from 1998-2011

5 year probationary period

Reserves right to investigate individuals


Not tough enough in my opinion, but I understand the reasoning. PSU should feel lucky.

Hopefully the Big Ten kicks them out.

[jr59]

As a PSU alum, perhaps I'm biased, but I would have the same opinion if it were any university: I don't understand the logic of punishing the entire PSU athletic program and town of State College for the crimes of a handful people.
If PSU football is killed, it would end all sports scholarships and probably most womens sports, if not a few mens sports programs. It would have a catastrophic effect on the economy of State College, and surrounding Centre County. Look, these were unprecedented, disgusting crimes. But they weren't committed by the entire student-athlete body nor the entire community of State College and surroundings. Unless you were a PSU-hater to begin with, your anger and calls for punishment should be directed at the guilty people involved, not innocent students and townspeople. Enough lives have already been ruined. As for making an example of PSU for others to see, I somehow highly doubt that other programs are waiting to see if PSU goes down before deciding to commit similar crimes. PSU has already gone down; why bring the innocents down with it now?

This is about PSU. Not State College. If State College has tied it's wagon to a school that covers up for the raping of young boys, then so be it.

Most small towns suffer when their football team is either bad or gets in trouble. That is just the way it is. You should blame the leaders of State College, not the NCAA for doing what needs to be done.

Personaly I hope that the people who RAPED young boys, and those who allowed him to continue to do it burn in hell. I also hope they shut the football program down for 2 years and limit them for another 5 years after.
Then take the fine money and start a trust that will help prevent this in the future, not just for the next 5 years, while everyone remembers, but FOREVER!

The town will learn to deal with it. Nobody asked the town to tag along with the team when it was doing well. It decided to do that on it's own. so it can deal with it when things are not so well.

[wc1934]

Most of the posts are clearly against PSU, but I agree with bcm119 and Rab.
It is clearly a sensitive issue and is a horrific story - However, there are so many issues at play - do you punish the entire institution and community for the criminal acts of a few - The football program supports all the title IX programs - I would suggest that many of the women's programs will be cut - will the men's programs suffer the same fate? What about the town - game day creates tons of revenue for the shops, taverns, hotels, restaurants, etc.
Does the NCAA even have a say in criminal proceedings where there has not been any violations of their rules- what if the president had been mishandling/stealing money-do they have a right to intervene?
What if these atrocities took place at the university of xxxxx by the volleyball coach - would that story have the same impact?
Lots of emotions at play, the victims are suffering and we want justice - how about putting a certain amount of football revenue aside and establishing a child abuse fund, creating counseling centers, etc etc - use the power of the pigskin to promote awareness.

[FlashUNC]

Most of the posts are clearly against PSU, but I agree with bcm119 and Rab.
It is clearly a sensitive issue and is a horrific story - However, there are so many issues at play - do you punish the entire institution and community for the criminal acts of a few - The football program supports all the title IX programs - I would suggest that many of the women's programs will be cut - will the men's programs suffer the same fate? What about the town - game day creates tons of revenue for the shops, taverns, hotels, restaurants, etc.
Does the NCAA even have a say in criminal proceedings where there has not been any violations of their rules- what if the president had been mishandling/stealing money-do they have a right to intervene?
What if these atrocities took place at the university of xxxxx by the volleyball coach - would that story have the same impact?
Lots of emotions at play, the victims are suffering and we want justice - how about putting a certain amount of football revenue aside and establishing a child abuse fund, creating counseling centers, etc etc - use the power of the pigskin to promote awareness.

Clearly there's going to be collateral damage as a result of this decision. But the culture of Penn State was poisoned to its very core when you've got people more concerned about protecting the image of the football program than kids from a child predator. If I were a State College resident affected by this, I would be asking the University hard questions, not the NCAA.

I think this is a case where you shouldn't blame the messenger.

Otherwise, how is the university ever held accountable? Its the too-big-to-fail argument all over again.

[rugbysecondrow]

Most of the posts are clearly against PSU, but I agree with bcm119 and Rab.
It is clearly a sensitive issue and is a horrific story - However, there are so many issues at play - do you punish the entire institution and community for the criminal acts of a few - The football program supports all the title IX programs - I would suggest that many of the women's programs will be cut - will the men's programs suffer the same fate? What about the town - game day creates tons of revenue for the shops, taverns, hotels, restaurants, etc.
Does the NCAA even have a say in criminal proceedings where there has not been any violations of their rules- what if the president had been mishandling/stealing money-do they have a right to intervene?
What if these atrocities took place at the university of xxxxx by the volleyball coach - would that story have the same impact?
Lots of emotions at play, the victims are suffering and we want justice - how about putting a certain amount of football revenue aside and establishing a child abuse fund, creating counseling centers, etc etc - use the power of the pigskin to promote awareness.

Imagine that. The UCONN women's basketball program, and the university had been hiding the truth about a coach who had been raping teenage girls sent to summer camps at the university over a period of 13 years. I actually think that it would be a bigger deal. Raping young men is very bad but I think society would react much more against a guy raping young women.

Plug in women's volleyball or other sports and I think it would be a very big deal.

To you last point, that is what the large fine is for, to help rectify part of the problem.


Clearly there's going to be collateral damage as a result of this decision. But the culture of Penn State was poisoned to its very core when you've got people more concerned about protecting the image of the football program than kids from a child predator. If I were a State College resident affected by this, I would be asking the University hard questions, not the NCAA.

I think this is a case where you shouldn't blame the messenger.

Otherwise, how is the university ever held accountable? Its the too-big-to-fail argument all over again.

100% agree.

[FlashUNC]

Couple points from the NCAA release.

1) The fine must be paid at minimum, in $12 million increments until fully paid into whatever endowment is established.

2) The university is not allowed to cut other currently sponsored athletic programs as a result of the fine.

3) The fine is the equivalent of one year of gross revenues generated by the football program.

[blantonator]

Clearly there's going to be collateral damage as a result of this decision. But the culture of Penn State was poisoned to its very core when you've got people more concerned about protecting the image of the football program than kids from a child predator. If I were a State College resident affected by this, I would be asking the University hard questions, not the NCAA.

I think this is a case where you shouldn't blame the messenger.

Otherwise, how is the university ever held accountable? Its the too-big-to-fail argument all over again.

As a Penn State alumni, I have to disagree. The actions of Spanier and Paterno, don't reflect the core values of the university I went to. Sure football is king, but to say the culture of PSU is poisoned just doesn't accurately reflect the people I went to school with.

[rugbysecondrow]

As a Penn State alumni, I have to disagree. The actions of Spanier and Paterno, don't reflect the core values of the university I went to. Sure football is king, but to say the culture of PSU is poisoned just doesn't accurately reflect the people I went to school with.


When every person who knew about the rapes did nothing about it, from various football coachs to the janitor to the head of the University to the head of the athletic department, to campus security etc etc...how is this not a cultural issue? All of those people placed football above basic humanity, above basic safety. Think about it, not only did they not come forward but even after knowing the allegations, they continued to allow him access to the university, the campus, the locker room. They continued to allow him to host young kids at the university. It is bad enough to ignore allegations, but to then knowingly let this guy remain around, that is just amazing to me.

Yeah, there was a culture there where football was placed above even basic humanity. That is not even a point that can be argued.

[FlashUNC]

When every person who knew about the rapes did nothing about it, from various football coachs to the janitor to the head of the University to the head of the athletic department, to campus security etc etc...how is this not a cultural issue? All of those people placed football above basic humanity, above basic safety. Think about it, not only did they not come forward but even after knowing the allegations, they continued to allow him access to the university, the campus, the locker room. They continued to allow him to host young kids at the university. It is bad enough to ignore allegations, but to then knowingly let this guy remain around, that is just amazing to me.

Yeah, there was a culture there where football was placed above even basic humanity. That is not even a point that can be argued.

+1. When you've got janitors who are afraid to speak up because they are afraid they're going to lose their jobs, something is seriously, seriously wrong.

This wasn't just one or two rogue administrators. It was the University president, the athletic director, the general counsel, University trustees, and the head of the most powerful sports program -- and as some are arguing here the very economic engine -- of the entire town.

How is that not pervasive enough?

[palincss]

Penn State the University and the football program purposefully hid the truth about the rapes and molestations strictly to benefit the program and the university and to shield it from any harm which might befall it. They placed the program above the safety of the children harmed and they not only enabled but they facilitated a pedophile and rapist who operated out of the state university, a person who then went on to commit further acts of violence at that university.

This is worse than any donor scandal, any alumni or booster payments, any selling of memorabilia or schwag...this was a university and a football program hiding and facilitating a known rapist on their campus. Outrageous!

Penn State does not deserve a football program. Period. They should lose that privilege.

I think you are absolutely correct. The penalty didn't go nearly far enough.

[tannhauser]

Didn't read the comments.

NCAA should stay out in order not to kill the economy of a small town which had nothing to do with the scandal.

[bcm119]

+1. When you've got janitors who are afraid to speak up because they are afraid they're going to lose their jobs, something is seriously, seriously wrong.

This wasn't just one or two rogue administrators. It was the University president, the athletic director, the general counsel, University trustees, and the head of the most powerful sports program -- and as some are arguing here the very economic engine -- of the entire town.

How is that not pervasive enough?

I may be wrong, but I don't think more than 25 people knew what was happening. Between students and townies, there are 100k people in State College. I wouldn't qualify that as pervasive. If you mean the culture of american college football and all its twisted priorities had pervaded PSU, then I agree with you completely, but it isn't unique to PSU. What is unique to PSU is a handful of people took the culture way too far and failed to protect those children, and now 100k people who had nothing to do with this and are as shocked and disgusted as everyone else is, will pay a price.

[rice rocket]

The "death penalty" would have probably been less harsh. 1 year of no football versus 4 years of no post season? That's a whole generation in college terms, enough to kill a program. I'll take option A.

Penn State could have chosen to do this themselves and possibly avoided NCAA action, but yet again, they sat on their asses and chose not to act.

[Climb01742]

two points:

we need to be careful with our language. in this situation, there is just one group that deserves to be referred to as 'innocents being harmed'. while it is certainly true that there will be students, athletes and faculty members whose lives will be impacted by the penalties imposed on PSU, to refer to them as 'innocents being harmed' creates an equivalency that just isn't accurate. whatever impact is felt by the PSU community going forward is a fraction of a fraction of what those young boys have endured. and the sooner PSU supporters find a new way to talk about their community, the better for everyone.

PSU is not alone in how out of whack their priorities are related to big time football. the list is long, whether in the SEC, big 10, pac 10, whatever the league texas and oklahoma are in is called these days. at those football powerhouse schools, it isn't, as far as we know, young boys that are thrown under the bus to protect the 'program'. it is any professor who dares grade football players honestly. or women on campus who speak up after being molested or raped by football players. or those who blow the whistle on pay-for-play violations.

as someone said earlier, NCAA football is pro football vaguely attached to universities. everyone wants the money and the glory college football brings and the bigger the dollars, the bigger the incentive to cover up ugly actions and truths.

it's a swamp that runs far deeper than PSU, but if PSU is serious about wanting to redress the balance of priorities at the university, then some aspects of the university will need to be 'hurt' by sanctions who may not fully merit the 'hurt'. the entire university, as many others do and did, benefited from the blind eye turned to the ugly side of 'the program'. reform isn't always 'fair' in its details, but the goal is a worthy one.

i love college football. i'm from oregon and i've loved watching the ducks rise to national prominence. but i also know that chip kelley has undoubtedly cut corners to get there. the police blotter is proof in eugene.

so, no, PSU isn't alone. but that can't be a reason to not try to drain the swamp, from happy valley to tuscaloosa to austin to eugene.

[MarleyMon]

...

Once upon a time, long ago, the University of Chicago had a major football program -- big 10, national power. They chucked it. No football at all for many years, and eventually a lackluster D3 program. The University did just fine as a university.

Yes, but it was one man, the president, Robert Maynard Hutchins, who made the decision. There was not anyone like him at PSU.

So to those who rue that life is unfair to the innocent student-athletes and fans I can only say - "Get used to it. Life ain't fair. You don't have an unfettered right to football."

[Smiley]

Hey Bobby Bowden, You beat Joe Paterno in totals win counts :) and Eddie Robinson at Grambling...good for you as you deserve to be the all time winnest coach for the record.

[bcm119]

two points:

we need to be careful with our language. in this situation, there is just one group that deserves to be referred to as 'innocents being harmed'. while it is certainly true that there will be students, athletes and faculty members whose lives will be impacted by the penalties imposed on PSU, to refer to them as 'innocents being harmed' creates an equivalency that just isn't accurate. whatever impact is felt by the PSU community going forward is a fraction of a fraction of what those young boys have endured. and the sooner PSU supporters find a new way to talk about their community, the better for everyone.
....


I think you're applying too much political correctness. Let's be honest and respectful of each other, and understand that just because someone may disagree with proposed NCAA sanctions, doesn't in any way mean that person is questioning the atrocity of Sandusky's crime, nor the damage done to the lives of his victims. We're now discussing NCAA sanctions and the consequences of punishment to the football program, and I don't think we need to put quotes around "innocent" or tip toe around certain words describing the effects on the university and town. I also think a lot of folks who have taken my stance have been accused of downplaying the crime itself, which is just idiotic.

[sandyrs]

two points:

We need to be careful with our language. In this situation, there is just one group that deserves to be referred to as 'innocents being harmed'. While it is certainly true that there will be students, athletes and faculty members whose lives will be impacted by the penalties imposed on psu, to refer to them as 'innocents being harmed' creates an equivalency that just isn't accurate. Whatever impact is felt by the psu community going forward is a fraction of a fraction of what those young boys have endured. And the sooner psu supporters find a new way to talk about their community, the better for everyone.

...

So, no, psu isn't alone. But that can't be a reason to not try to drain the swamp, from happy valley to tuscaloosa to austin to eugene.

+1.

[William]

I think this article, and the subject of the article touches on the prevalent culture that existed at Penn...

(CNN) -- Vicky Triponey knows all too well the power Penn State's late football coach, Joe Paterno, held for more than half a century over the insular slice of central Pennsylvania that calls itself Happy Valley.

She experienced firsthand the clubby, jock-snapping culture, the sense of entitlement, the cloistered existence. It's what drove her five years ago from her job as the vice president who oversaw student discipline.

She was told she was too aggressive, too confrontational, that she wasn't fitting in with "the Penn State way."

She clashed often with Paterno over who should discipline football players when they got into trouble. The conflict with such an iconic figure made her very unpopular around campus. For a while, it cost Triponey her peace of mind and her good name. It almost ended her 30-year academic career...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?iref=allsearch


If true, it pretty well emphasizes the enabling culture that allowed the things that happened to happen.






William

[rugbysecondrow]

I think you're applying too much political correctness. Let's be honest and respectful of each other, and understand that just because someone may disagree with proposed NCAA sanctions, doesn't in any way mean that person is questioning the atrocity of Sandusky's crime, nor the damage done to the lives of his victims. We're now discussing NCAA sanctions and the consequences of punishment to the football program, and I don't think we need to put quotes around "innocent" or tip toe around certain words describing the effects on the university and town. I also think a lot of folks who have taken my stance have been accused of downplaying the crime itself, which is just idiotic.

I think the crimes of JS stand alone, no question.

The issue is of institutional responsibility. A programatic failure. A purposeful willingness to hide the truth, ignore future risk for what? This is where it is not individuals acting but rather the powerful at the university acting in concert in a pattern to protect the program. They made institutional decisions to hide the truth and keep the risk present.

So I think the crimes themselves are heinous, but lets not also forget the follow up actions of the university. Question, is it worse to be the rapist or the people who KNEW he was a rapist and facilitated his violence. To be the ones who hid the truth and allowed the victim list to grow.


Tough question.

[Aaron O]

In that case, I'm unclear as to what the Vatican itself did and didn't know about what was happening, particularly in Boston. But if they knew what was going on, then there definitely needs to be wholesale change within the organization. This kind of institutional failure, regardless of the organization, is inexcusable imo. Both in this case and the Catholic sex scandal, the leaders had a choice to do either the right thing, or the easy thing. And in both instances, they chose the easy thing.

In terms of college sports, this is orders of magnitude beyond what has happened at any other school. It makes SMU, USC and the other scandals small potatoes.

I'm really worried about this discussion resulting in a donnybrook, (I'm honestly not trying to troll) but the previous pope came to the US during the problem and laid the blame at the US - saying something to the effect of our corruption could influence even the best. Obviously the scandal spread across to Ireland, Italy, South America, etc...and I think it's pretty apparent that, at best, they chose not to behave responsibly. There are other issues - like the recent financial scandal leaks and the resulting Vatican inquiry has been solely focused on the leak, rather than the financial improprieties.

I'm not trying to single out the Vatican...I think because it's possibly the oldest institutional bureaucratic organization, it's a good example. I think this behavior is endemic to organizational hierarchies and, unfortunately, PSU probably didn't behave much differently than other schools would have. Look at how long it took for Enron to fall apart...or the Abramoff scandal where accountants were aware of some of the problems. I think when you have institutional hierarchies, it's dangerously easy to pass the buck and no one really takes a fall most of the time (and it's never the folks truly on top). Look at the Iran-Contra scandal...somehow the dead guy always takes all of the blame.

When the organization is threatened, people circle the wagons and look for others to take action. No one wants to stand up because there is unspoken pressure not to...it's in the culture. It's obviously especially offensive because of Paterno's hypocrisy and the school's reputation vs. reality image. I'm going back to my college days, and my memory is fuzzy, but, as I recall, Max Weber did a pretty good job studying organizational hierarchies and structures and explained this behavior pretty well.

[rugbysecondrow]

Introducing the Catholic Church here seems unnecessarily, inflammatory and might get this thread closed. Not sure why but it is the second time you brought it up. Frankly, it didn't seem relevant the first time and it really doesn't the second time either. You can make your point just fine without interjecting such a hot button issue.

To your second point, to say that other schools wouldn't behave differently is hard to discuss. It seems unfair to try to make this connection, a reach to connect what PSU did to all universities or institutions. Quite a stretch actually. Universities have reporting guidelines and have been known to self-report potential incidents to the NCAA or to governing bodies. Stretching this one scandal to all universities seems wrong unless you also try to then incorporate all instances where universities play by the rules. The latter you rarely hear about.



I'm really worried about this discussion resulting in a donnybrook, but the previous pope came to the US during the problem and laid the blame at the US - saying something to the effect of our corruption could influence even the best. Obviously the scandal spread across to Ireland, Italy, South America, etc...and I think it's pretty apparent that, at best, they chose not to behave responsibly. There are other issues - like the recent financial scandal leaks and the resulting Vatican inquiry has been solely focused on the leak, rather than the financial improprieties.

I'm not trying to single out the Vatican...I think because it's possibly the oldest institutional bureaucratic organization, it's a good example. I think this behavior is endemic to organizational hierarchies and, unfortunately, PSU probably didn't behave much differently than other schools would have.

It's obviously especially offensive because of Paterno's hypocrisy and the school's reputation vs. reality image. I'm going back to my college days, and my memory is fuzzy, but, as I recall, Max Weber did a pretty good job studying organizational hierarchies and structures and explained this behavior pretty well.

[MattTuck]

Didn't read the comments.

NCAA should stay out in order not to kill the economy of a small town which had nothing to do with the scandal.

Perhaps the economy of a small town should not be based on a college's football program.

I generally agree with Rugby's comments. if the football team was so important to the town/college, the right move to protect it would have been to act on basic values and excise the cancer when it first appeared, probably would have meant some heads would roll, but the program would survive and probably be enlivened with new blood and a new purpose.

Instead, many individuals tried to cover their own ass and protect the power structure that they were a part of. Yes, football was part of the power structure, and people didn't want to risk their own necks to do what was right. The end result, the decimation of the program they were supposedly protecting seems appropriate.

[Aaron O]

Introducing the Catholic Church here seems unnecessarily, inflammatory and might get this thread closed. Not sure why but it is the second time you brought it up. Frankly, it didn't seem relevant the first time and it really doesn't the second time either.

To your second point, to say that other schools wouldn't behave differently is hard to discuss, I am not certain of another instance like this. It seems unfair to try to make this connection, a reach to connect what PSU did to all universities or institutions. Quite a stretch actually.

What I'm trying to illustrate, and there are many examples, is that I think some of the problem is less about individuals and more about organizational dynamics and the nature of hierarchies and bureaucratic institutions. The first rule of an organization is to protect the organization, and that can have consequences when the protection extends to a guy like Sandusky. I think it's harder to stop than you'd think and the behavior/cover ups are more wide spread than we'd like to believe.

[bcm119]

I think the crimes of JS stand alone, no question.

The issue is of institutional responsibility. A programatic failure. A purposeful willingness to hide the truth, ignore future risk for what? This is where it is not individuals acting but rather the powerful at the university acting in concert in a pattern to protect the program. They made institutional decisions to hide the truth and keep the risk present.

So I think the crimes themselves are heinous, but lets not also forget the follow up actions of the university. Question, is it worse to be the rapist or the people who KNEW he was a rapist and facilitated his violence. To be the ones who hid the truth and allowed the victim list to grow.


Tough question.

I pretty much agree with all you have said here. However, the culture that enabled this situation isn’t a PSU culture, or even college sports in general, it is American culture. Our sports are corrupt, our politics are corrupt, our corporations are corrupt… powerful people have very narrow definitions of success. This PSU scandal is just a symptom of that. I don’t understand the logic of punishing PSU the institution, when it was a few people who actually committed crimes, enabled by a culture that has pervaded almost every facet of our country. The only unique thing to PSU is the crime of Sandusky, and the crimes of the few who conspired to cover it up; those people should be dealt with extremely harshly, but I don’t think punishing the institution addresses the cultural problem that enabled this situation.

[rugbysecondrow]

What I'm trying to illustrate, and there are many examples, is that I think some of the problem is less about individuals and more about organizational dynamics and the nature of hierarchies and bureaucratic institutions. The first rule of an organization is to protect the organization, and that can have consequences when the protection extends to a guy like Sandusky. I think it's harder to stop than you'd think and the behavior/cover ups are more wide spread than we'd like to believe.

I know, but your premise is largely incorrect here though. Most corporations have audits, findings, etc where spend a lot of money to be in compliance and to mitigate areas where they are out of compliance. Schools have self reported NCAA violations. There is so much going on behind the scenes because many institutions and universities would rather admit fault early, fix the issue and move on rather than hide and keep hiding. I think there is more truth and transparency than hiding and shielding.

Google self-reported NCAA violations and you will see there are quite a few that never get big attention. It is a culture of honesty.

[Aaron O]

I pretty much agree with all you have said here. However, the culture that enabled this situation isn’t a PSU culture, or even college sports in general, it is American culture. Our sports are corrupt, our politics are corrupt, our corporations are corrupt… powerful people have very narrow definitions of success. This PSU scandal is just a symptom of that. I don’t understand the logic of punishing PSU the institution, when it was a few people who actually committed crimes, enabled by a culture that has pervaded almost every facet of our country. The only unique thing to PSU is the crime of Sandusky, and the crimes of the few who conspired to cover it up; those people should be dealt with extremely harshly, but I don’t think punishing the institution addresses the cultural problem that enabled this situation.

I think what you're saying is similar to my point - when you combine human nature with the nature of organizations, you get a cover your butt mentality and a bureaucratic anonymity that extends to ANY organization. The hypocrisy with Paterno/PSU really illustrates the point, but I don't believe for a second that this culture, or these issues, are restricted to PSU.

[Aaron O]

I know, but your premise is largely incorrect here though. Most corporations have audits, findings, etc where spend a lot of money to be in compliance and to mitigate areas where they are out of compliance. Schools have self reported NCAA violations. There is so much going on behind the scenes because many institutions and universities would rather admit fault early, fix the issue and move on rather than hide and keep hiding. I think there is more truth and transparency than hiding and shielding.

Google self-reported NCAA violations and you will see there are quite a few that never get big attention. It is a culture of honesty. I think one of us is incorrect and idealistic...but I think it's you my friend. Another principle of organizational theory is that regulatory boards typically end up controlled by what they regulate. I work in an audit/compliance department and we're, frankly, largely a CYA window dressing for our CFO to blame others for decisions we need to make anyway. Sure - there are self censored revelations, but I wonder how often the coming forward is as noble as we think and I wonder if the schools doing it are truly the ones with programs that have institutional strength.

[rugbysecondrow]

I pretty much agree with all you have said here. However, the culture that enabled this situation isn’t a PSU culture, or even college sports in general, it is American culture. Our sports are corrupt, our politics are corrupt, our corporations are corrupt… powerful people have very narrow definitions of success. This PSU scandal is just a symptom of that. I don’t understand the logic of punishing PSU the institution, when it was a few people who actually committed crimes, enabled by a culture that has pervaded almost every facet of our country. The only unique thing to PSU is the crime of Sandusky, and the crimes of the few who conspired to cover it up; those people should be dealt with extremely harshly, but I don’t think punishing the institution addresses the cultural problem that enabled this situation.


The program and the institution should be punished because those folks were acting in the capacity of the university. The governing bodies hired them to operate on behalf of the university. They were not operating in a personal capacity but that of the university. This point we just might disagree on.

I disagree with the PSU being a culture attributable to the rest of the USA. I think that lets PSU off the hook for what they did. It is too convenient.

[MattTuck]

What I'm trying to illustrate, and there are many examples, is that I think some of the problem is less about individuals and more about organizational dynamics and the nature of hierarchies and bureaucratic institutions. The first rule of an organization is to protect the organization, and that can have consequences when the protection extends to a guy like Sandusky. I think it's harder to stop than you'd think and the behavior/cover ups are more wide spread than we'd like to believe.

Aaron, you're right about an organization trying to protect itself first. It is hard to stop that behavior, I'll grant you that also. But just because it is hard and/or happens with some frequency is not an excuse or justification. But it should not happen at the expense of violations on basic human rights. Especially at colleges, which aim to be inclusive, places of free expression and focused on young people, with many institutional components designed to protect young people.

I work at a college, and after this whole thing with PSU, we keep getting emails updating existing and introducing new policies meant to keep things like this from happening again.

In my opinion, policies are an institutional way to tell people what is right and what is wrong, and what should be done in the event of a situation arising. It is no substitute though for having people who, when they know something is not right, stand up, speak the truth and fight for what is right.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think one of us is incorrect and idealistic...but I think it's you my friend. Another principle of organizational theory is that regulatory boards typically end up controlled by what they regulate. I work in an audit/compliance department and we're, frankly, largely a CYA window dressing for our CFO to blame others for decisions we need to make anyway. Sure - there are self censored revelations, but I wonder how often the coming forward is as noble as we think and I wonder if the schools doing it are truly the ones with programs that have institutional strength.

I might be an idealist, but I think you are sweeping too much reality in with theory. There is a middle ground where many do the right thing.

I think what you said makes best argument for punishment of PSU. If there is a culture of purposeful ignorance amongst colleges or institutions, of ignoring the truth, of hiding facts like this then you will get punished severely. This sends a message to other programs and universities, get your house in order, check your priorities. Your program is not too big to be taken down.

[Earl Gray]

As a PSU alum, perhaps I'm biased, but I would have the same opinion if it were any university: I don't understand the logic of punishing the entire PSU athletic program and town of State College for the crimes of a handful people.
If PSU football is killed, it would end all sports scholarships and probably most womens sports, if not a few mens sports programs. It would have a catastrophic effect on the economy of State College, and surrounding Centre County. Look, these were unprecedented, disgusting crimes. But they weren't committed by the entire student-athlete body nor the entire community of State College and surroundings. Unless you were a PSU-hater to begin with, your anger and calls for punishment should be directed at the guilty people involved, not innocent students and townspeople. Enough lives have already been ruined. As for making an example of PSU for others to see, I somehow highly doubt that other programs are waiting to see if PSU goes down before deciding to commit similar crimes. PSU has already gone down; why bring the innocents down with it now?


+1

I truly don't understand the need/desire to kill the program.

It seems more of peoples tendency to treat big corporations, governments or in this case a program as breathing, thinking individuals. It is just not the case. There is no being named Penn St Football that condoned any of this. There are a group of individuals that condoned it. Punish them to the max extent possible and maybe even beyond that.

Attacking the "program" does not in any, way shape or form make ANY difference at all.

Don't even talk about "deterrence". Straw man

[William]

I pretty much agree with all you have said here. However, the culture that enabled this situation isn’t a PSU culture, or even college sports in general, it is American culture. Our sports are corrupt, our politics are corrupt, our corporations are corrupt… powerful people have very narrow definitions of success. This PSU scandal is just a symptom of that. I don’t understand the logic of punishing PSU the institution, when it was a few people who actually committed crimes, enabled by a culture that has pervaded almost every facet of our country...

You are right on a macro level. But individuals choose whether they want to go down that path or not. In this instance, a handful of individuals nurtured a culture that pervaded a college town at all levels. This fact forced people to choose between what's right, and their livelihoods. A culture that shouted down, and got rid of anyone who attempted to stand up to it. A culture that knowingly buried even the most heinous acts to preserve an institutional image. Evil people commit evil acts, and this institution tried to cover them up.
It may seem unfair to some to punish the institution (and all in it), but a message has to be sent that this type of pervasive cover up and individual character assassination of any opposition at this level can't and won't be tolerated.




William

[Ray]

Introducing the Catholic Church here seems unnecessarily, inflammatory and might get this thread closed. Not sure why but it is the second time you brought it up. Frankly, it didn't seem relevant the first time and it really doesn't the second time either. You can make your point just fine without interjecting such a hot button issue.
I agree that its inflammatory and might get the thread closed, but its also the elephant in the room we're mostly not talking about ONLY because it involves religion rather than college football (not that there's such a huge gap between the two in the US). The parallels are overwhelming, the institutional dynamics nearly identical. The only difference is the scale - the number of abusers and the scale of the cover ups in the church make the Penn State scandal look small time. Its an important parallel because it makes abundantly, horrifyingly clear that large institutions are prone to the mentality of "protect the institution at all costs" regardless of how good the initial intentions of the institution may be / have been. No need to pick specifically on the Catholic Church as an institution or a religion - it could have happened nearly anywhere in any institution that large and insular. But its such a perfect illustration of exactly the dynamics we're discussing in nearly EVERY other post in this thread that it seems awfully politically correct not to at least mention the parallels...

-Ray

[Aaron O]

I might be an idealist, but I think you are sweeping too much reality in with theory. There is a middle ground where many do the right thing.

I think what you said makes best argument for punishment of PSU. If there is a culture of purposeful ignorance amongst colleges or institutions, of ignoring the truth, of hiding facts like this then you will get punished severely. This sends a message to other programs and universities, get your house in order, check your priorities. Your program is not too big to be taken down.

I think you're right...and I hope it's understood that I'm by no means justifying the behavior of these turds, I'm suggesting that there is a bigger issue, mostly human nature, at play. That doesn't justify the behavior of the individuals here, rather it's a point that there is a problem with organizations and we need to be aware of it and think about it when we're faced with these decisions as individuals. When we are faced with hard decisions like these, it would be helpful if we were able to think about the pressures we face and the tendency towards protection and keep that in mind when we do act.

I think the obvious (extreme) example is Nazi Germany and those that said they were just following orders. I don't believe the average German was much different than the average American (or the average citizen anywhere else for that matter). I don't think most of these people were any more evil than we were...they were part of an organization that made it easy to take certain actions while rationalizing it and blaming others. It doesn't mean we accept that explanation at Nuremberg. It DOES mean that we think about these issues as individuals and talk about them - so that we are more likely to stand up and say no.

I'd like to believe, and I do believe, that I would have behaved differently, but I also don't care as much about my organization as Paterno cared about his...and I think the higher up you go, the harder it is to take a wrecking ball to your own organization. I am NOT justifying or excusing what Paterno and Penn State did...it makes me sick to my stomach.

Aaron, you're right about an organization trying to protect itself first. It is hard to stop that behavior, I'll grant you that also. But just because it is hard and/or happens with some frequency is not an excuse or justification. But it should not happen at the expense of violations on basic human rights. Especially at colleges, which aim to be inclusive, places of free expression and focused on young people, with many institutional components designed to protect young people.

I work at a college, and after this whole thing with PSU, we keep getting emails updating existing and introducing new policies meant to keep things like this from happening again.

In my opinion, policies are an institutional way to tell people what is right and what is wrong, and what should be done in the event of a situation arising. It is no substitute though for having people who, when they know something is not right, stand up, speak the truth and fight for what is right.

I agree with every word you wrote.

[MattTuck]

+1

I truly don't understand the need/desire to kill the program.




Short reason... no athletic program should get so big that its destruction will harm the university. PSU might be forced to focus on things such as academics, basic research and ethics, and it will be a better school for it.

Maybe it comes back as a football powerhouse, maybe it doesn't. The school is in the business of educating young people, not running a minor league football franchise. Perhaps this period of probation will give them time to reflect on that.

[bcm119]

The program and the institution should be punished because those folks were acting in the capacity of the university. The governing bodies hired them to operate on behalf of the university. They were not operating in a personal capacity but that of the university. This point we just might disagree on.

I disagree with the PSU being a culture attributable to the rest of the USA. I think that lets PSU off the hook for what they did. It is too convenient.

I’m not letting anyone off the hook. The university is composed of mostly good people and sound policy, except the guys at the top who conspired to cover this up broke policy and made horrible personal decisions. They made those horrible decisions because they are products of a money hungry, ego driven corporate culture that is not unique to PSU in any way, but that’s not to say that it’s not their fault, its just a cultural observation. At PSU, football = money, so this is a story that could have played out at any major corporation. Agree to disagree I guess.

[rugbysecondrow]

Actually I didn't think it was the elephant in the room at all. You say the only difference is scale, but that is a big arse difference. A global, multinational organization with billions in holdings, maybe a billion members, how ever many priests, the breadth of organization structure, the vast number of incidents over how many decades and the corresponding cover-ups...it is just not even an apt comparison to the PSU issue. Not even close. It is like comparing a kid stealing a pack of baseball cards to Bernie Madoff...both stole and both lied about it, but not even the same scope of issue.



I agree that its inflammatory and might get the thread closed, but its also the elephant in the room we're mostly not talking about ONLY because it involves religion rather than college football (not that there's such a huge gap between the two in the US). The parallels are overwhelming, the institutional dynamics nearly identical. The only difference is the scale - the number of abusers and the scale of the cover ups in the church make the Penn State scandal look small time. Its an important parallel because it makes abundantly, horrifyingly clear that large institutions are prone to the mentality of "protect the institution at all costs" regardless of how good the initial intentions of the institution may be / have been. No need to pick specifically on the Catholic Church as an institution or a religion - it could have happened nearly anywhere in any institution that large and insular. But its such a perfect illustration of exactly the dynamics we're discussing in nearly EVERY other post in this thread that it seems awfully politically correct not to at least mention the parallels...

-Ray

[bcm119]

I agree that its inflammatory and might get the thread closed, but its also the elephant in the room we're mostly not talking about ONLY because it involves religion rather than college football (not that there's such a huge gap between the two in the US). The parallels are overwhelming, the institutional dynamics nearly identical. The only difference is the scale - the number of abusers and the scale of the cover ups in the church make the Penn State scandal look small time. Its an important parallel because it makes abundantly, horrifyingly clear that large institutions are prone to the mentality of "protect the institution at all costs" regardless of how good the initial intentions of the institution may be / have been. No need to pick specifically on the Catholic Church as an institution or a religion - it could have happened nearly anywhere in any institution that large and insular. But its such a perfect illustration of exactly the dynamics we're discussing in nearly EVERY other post in this thread that it seems awfully politically correct not to at least mention the parallels...

-Ray

Agree with everything you say. As an undergrad there I found the religion of football and the Paterno worship disgusting, and that was way before any of this happened. And as I got older I realized this dynamic wasn't unique to PSU.

[Aaron O]

I agree that its inflammatory and might get the thread closed, but its also the elephant in the room we're mostly not talking about ONLY because it involves religion rather than college football (not that there's such a huge gap between the two in the US). The parallels are overwhelming, the institutional dynamics nearly identical. The only difference is the scale - the number of abusers and the scale of the cover ups in the church make the Penn State scandal look small time. Its an important parallel because it makes abundantly, horrifyingly clear that large institutions are prone to the mentality of "protect the institution at all costs" regardless of how good the initial intentions of the institution may be / have been. No need to pick specifically on the Catholic Church as an institution or a religion - it could have happened nearly anywhere in any institution that large and insular. But its such a perfect illustration of exactly the dynamics we're discussing in nearly EVERY other post in this thread that it seems awfully politically correct not to at least mention the parallels...

-Ray

This is exactly what I am trying to get across. I'm not trying to inflame, I just think it's a good example. These dangers are inherent in organizations, and the larger and more powerful they are...and the less inputs with control that they have, the more dangerous this mentality becomes. This doesn't excuse Paterno, Spannier, etc...but it is worth discussing and understanding. Organizational hierarchies make inaction easy, seductive and preferable. We should be aware of the tendency to influence our decisions so that we can make good decisions if we're ever faced with a situation like this.

[FlashUNC]

What PSU officials failed to consider is that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.

If they had aggressively pursued this in the late 90's, early 00's -- other than stoppping a child predator from assaulting more kids, of course -- that time would be viewed as a dark era for the program where strong leadership got them through it.

It would be another notch in the legend of JoePa. Standing up to do ther right thing at a time when you absolutely needed to do the right thing.

Instead, they took the cowards way out, and save their own hides rather than try and fix it.

I find it galling that folks in State College seem unwilling to hold any senior officials to account for this. That somehow this was just the work of one deranged man, rather than crimes that were enabled for decades by senior University officials.

[Aaron O]

What PSU officials failed to consider is that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.

If they had aggressively pursued this in the late 90's, early 00's -- other than stoppping a child predator from assaulting more kids, of course -- that time would be viewed as a dark era for the program where strong leadership got them through it.

It would be another notch in the legend of JoePa. Standing up to do ther right thing at a time when you absolutely needed to do the right thing.

Instead, they took the cowards way out, and save their own hides rather than try and fix it.

I find it galling that folks in State College seem unwilling to hold any senior officials to account for this. That somehow this was just the work of one deranged man, rather than crimes that were enabled for decades by senior University officials.

The other problem for me is that culture starts at the top - meaning reform starts at the top. The entire board should be replaced.

[tannhauser]

Perhaps the economy of a small town should not be based on a college's football program.


It is what it is. You take it away and people suffer.
Did you notice we're in a deep recession?

[bcm119]

...


I find it galling that folks in State College seem unwilling to hold any senior officials to account for this. That somehow this was just the work of one deranged man, rather than crimes that were enabled for decades by senior University officials.

I don't know a single person in my circle of alumni friends, some of whom live in SC, who thinks this way. Everyone I know wants PSU to clean house.

[Earl Gray]

Actually I didn't think it was the elephant in the room at all. You say the only difference is scale, but that is a big arse difference. A global, multinational organization with billions in holdings, maybe a billion members, how ever many priests, the breadth of organization structure, the vast number of incidents over how many decades and the corresponding cover-ups...it is just not even an apt comparison to the PSU issue. Not even close. It is like comparing a kid stealing a pack of baseball cards to Bernie Madoff...both stole and both lied about it, but not even the same scope of issue.

Regardless of the scale of economies, it is a much greater offense from the Catholic Church because what they are supposed to stand for. Penn State football never claimed to be the house of the righteous or to be setting an example that EVERYBODY else in the world should follow or they are doomed to hell.

To claim what happened at Penn State is in some way worse is asinine.

[Aaron O]

Regardless of the scale of economies, it is a much greater offense from the Catholic Church because what they are supposed to stand for. Penn State football never claimed to be the house of the righteous or to be setting an example that EVERYBODY else in the world should follow or they are doomed to hell.

To claim what happened at Penn State is in some way worse is asinine.

I think they kind of did...Paterno certainly made several morality based political comments over the years and PSU always has held itself out to be different. It's also how they sold themselves to recruits. I don't think it's worse or better - both are examples of a lack of controls and the danger of institutional arrogance.

[Fixed]

Mankind is flawed

[Ray]

Actually I didn't think it was the elephant in the room at all. You say the only difference is scale, but that is a big arse difference. A global, multinational organization with billions in holdings, maybe a billion members, how ever many priests, the breadth of organization structure, the vast number of incidents over how many decades and the corresponding cover-ups...it is just not even an apt comparison to the PSU issue. Not even close. It is like comparing a kid stealing a pack of baseball cards to Bernie Madoff...both stole and both lied about it, but not even the same scope of issue.

OK, we agree Paul. So then how is mentioning it inflammatory? It seems rather the opposite to me, just serving as an overwhelming perspective check on the Penn State scandal. Which, in comparison, is really REALLY small potatoes. ONE perpetrator and maybe a small handfull of guys directly in on the cover up with a few others who knew but were afraid to say anything. Compared to a global religious infrastructure with many many perps and lord knows how many involved in various cover ups...

I agree with you on most of what you've said about Penn State, including the level of penalties that we think should be handed down. To me its impossible to think about this scandal withOUT thinking about the Church scandal and the likely impossibility of reaching anything like the level of punishment and closure in THAT situation that we'll probably stumble our way toward in the Penn State situation.

-Ray

[FlashUNC]

I don't know a single person in my circle of alumni friends, some of whom live in SC, who thinks this way. Everyone I know wants PSU to clean house.

Apologies. Maybe I'm making too much of the apologists ESPN seems to find in the student union and elsewhere.

Those kids seem more bummed about PSU not going to a bowl game than what happened with Sandusky.

[cfox]

Didn't read the comments.

NCAA should stay out in order not to kill the economy of a small town which had nothing to do with the scandal.
doesn't work like that. if a criminal goes to jail, loses his job and his innocent family becomes homeless as a result....well life just isn't fair. the angry business owners should blame penn state and their pathetic footbal cult, not the ncaa.

[rugbysecondrow]

Regardless of the scale of economies, it is a much greater offense from the Catholic Church because what they are supposed to stand for. Penn State football never claimed to be the house of the righteous or to be setting an example that EVERYBODY else in the world should follow or they are doomed to hell.

To claim what happened at Penn State is in some way worse is asinine.

Que? I never claimed anything like that.

[rugbysecondrow]

OK, we agree Paul. So then how is mentioning it inflammatory? It seems rather the opposite to me, just serving as an overwhelming perspective check on the Penn State scandal. Which, in comparison, is really REALLY small potatoes. ONE perpetrator and maybe a small handfull of guys directly in on the cover up with a few others who knew but were afraid to say anything. Compared to a global religious infrastructure with many many perps and lord knows how many involved in various cover ups...

I agree with you on most of what you've said about Penn State, including the level of penalties that we think should be handed down. To me its impossible to think about this scandal withOUT thinking about the Church scandal and the likely impossibility of reaching anything like the level of punishment and closure in THAT situation that we'll probably stumble our way toward in the Penn State situation.

-Ray

It is like mentioning abortion, gay marriage or campagnolo/shimano...some topics just derail conversation. Inflammatory might not be right, but distracting maybe?

Frankly, i never made the leap from PSU to the Catholic Church, they seem that far apart to me.

[Aaron O]

It is like mentioning abortion, gay marriage or campagnolo/shimano...some topics just derail conversation. Inflammatory might not be right, but distracting maybe?

Frankly, i never made the leap from PSU to the Catholic Church, they seem that far apart to me.I see them as both similar and related. Morality taking a back seat to expediency and institutional integrity.

[Louis]

doesn't work like that. if a criminal goes to jail, loses his job and his innocent family becomes homeless as a result....well life just isn't fair. the angry business owners should blame penn state and their pathetic footbal cult, not the ncaa.

Gee, too big to fail - where have I heard that before?

[rugbysecondrow]

I see them as both similar and related. Morality taking a back seat to expediency and institutional integrity.

You see them as similar and related because you want to see them as similar and related, but I don't think it is a natural link. Frankly, of the articles I have read the the sports shows I have listened to, that leap hasn't been made by others either.

"Morality taking a back seat to expediency and institutional integrity"...That doesn't seem to apply here. The university compromised its integrity, individuals compromised whatever morality they had, but I am not certain it was for expediency. It was for greed.

Agree to disagree though. We are both being redundant now. :)

[laupsi]

punishment should have nothing to do w/what the perpetraiter claims to be or be for, the severity of the act should dictate the penalty.

[Aaron O]

You see them as similar and related because you want to see them as similar and related, but I don't think it is a natural link. Frankly, of the articles I have read the the sports shows I have listened to, that leap hasn't been made by others either.

"Morality taking a back seat to expediency and institutional integrity"...That doesn't seem to apply here. The university compromised its integrity, individuals compromised whatever morality they had, but I am not certain it was for expediency. It was for greed.

Deal...

[wc1934]

Part of Graham Spanier's Sunday letter to the board of trustee's:

"It is unfathomable and illogical to think that a respected family sociologist and family therapist, someone who personally experienced massive and persistent abuse as a child, someone who devoted a significant portion of his career to the welfare of children and youth, including service on the boards of four such organizations, two as chair of the board, would have knowingly turned a blind eye to any report of child abuse or predatory sexual acts directed at children," Spanier wrote to trustees. "As I have stated in the clearest possible terms, at no time during my presidency did anyone ever report to me that Jerry Sandusky was observed abusing a child or youth or engaged in a sexual act with a child or youth.

"This conclusion should have been abundantly clear to Mr. Freeh and his colleagues who interviewed me for five hours before their report was finished and interrogated scores of employees about me. Yet the report is full of factual errors and jumps to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

[akelman]

Part of Graham Spanier's Sunday letter to the board of trustee's:

"It is unfathomable and illogical to think that a respected family sociologist and family therapist, someone who personally experienced massive and persistent abuse as a child, someone who devoted a significant portion of his career to the welfare of children and youth, including service on the boards of four such organizations, two as chair of the board, would have knowingly turned a blind eye to any report of child abuse or predatory sexual acts directed at children," Spanier wrote to trustees. "As I have stated in the clearest possible terms, at no time during my presidency did anyone ever report to me that Jerry Sandusky was observed abusing a child or youth or engaged in a sexual act with a child or youth.

"This conclusion should have been abundantly clear to Mr. Freeh and his colleagues who interviewed me for five hours before their report was finished and interrogated scores of employees about me. Yet the report is full of factual errors and jumps to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

I note that he doesn't deny having used PEDs.

[Louis]

I note that he doesn't deny having used PEDs.

Ouch.

[tannhauser]

doesn't work like that. if a criminal goes to jail, loses his job and his innocent family becomes homeless as a result....well life just isn't fair. the angry business owners should blame penn state and their pathetic footbal cult, not the ncaa.

Sure, punish the innocent people who had nothing to do with the scandal. That's the way we are -- just punish punish punish blame blame blame.

Never mind the general welfare of that small town. We must punish them!

[wc1934]

Sure, punish the innocent people who had nothing to do with the scandal. That's the way we are -- just punish punish punish blame blame blame.

Never mind the general welfare of that small town. We must punish them!

+1

Penn State Penalties threaten to rock local economy

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/07/23/sports/football/23reuters-usa-pennstate-economy.html

[Ray]

Part of Graham Spanier's Sunday letter to the board of trustee's:

"It is unfathomable and illogical to think that a respected family sociologist and family therapist, someone who personally experienced massive and persistent abuse as a child, someone who devoted a significant portion of his career to the welfare of children and youth, including service on the boards of four such organizations, two as chair of the board, would have knowingly turned a blind eye to any report of child abuse or predatory sexual acts directed at children," Spanier wrote to trustees. "As I have stated in the clearest possible terms, at no time during my presidency did anyone ever report to me that Jerry Sandusky was observed abusing a child or youth or engaged in a sexual act with a child or youth.

"This conclusion should have been abundantly clear to Mr. Freeh and his colleagues who interviewed me for five hours before their report was finished and interrogated scores of employees about me. Yet the report is full of factual errors and jumps to conclusions that are untrue and unwarranted."

I don't know what Spanier knew or when he knew it and I don't recall what the Freeh report said about his involvement. But it was abundantly clear what Curley, Shultz, and Paterno knew by 2001 at the latest.

For those of you who don't like the punishment for the innocent bystanders hurt by it, what's your solution? Just let 'em play football and recruit and go to bowl games and make money and carry on as if nothing had happened? I agree that people will be hurt that didn't cause any of it (reminds me of the economy, but I won't go any further into that), but if you don't come down pretty hard on Penn State, what kind of message are you sending about the seriousness of the situation and what sort of fear, if any, will other NCAA programs have when they know there's bad stuff going on (not necessarily this type of thing specifically). Just turn a blind eye and nobody will get hurt.

I don't pretend there are easy answers or perfect solutions here, but I'm pretty sure letting the University and particularly the football program off scott-free is NOT the right answer...

-Ray

[William]

I don't know what Spanier knew or when he knew it and I don't recall what the Freeh report said about his involvement. But it was abundantly clear what Curley, Shultz, and Paterno knew by 2001 at the latest.

...

-Ray

I don't recall, but if anyone read the link to the article I posted a few pages back, (if true) it seems pretty clear he didn't want to know.




William

[tannhauser]

+1

Penn State Penalties threaten to rock local economy

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/07/23/sports/football/23reuters-usa-pennstate-economy.html

It's just so sad.

[rugbysecondrow]

Sure, punish the innocent people who had nothing to do with the scandal. That's the way we are -- just punish punish punish blame blame blame.

Never mind the general welfare of that small town. We must punish them!

How are innocent people being punished?

[Louis]

PSU students watching the announcement earlier today.

Hopefully they will learn at least a few lessons from this JoPa - JS episode.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/07/24/sports/ncaafootball/SANCTIONS/SANCTIONS-articleLarge.jpg

[rwsaunders]

Collateral damage includes the general student population; in particular the kids who are going to Penn State as freshmen in the Fall. Not the atheltes, the kids that pay full tuition and had to work hard to be accepted at Penn State main campus.

These are the kids that committed to Penn State and are now most likely locked out of attending their second choice school. Kids like our neighbor, who turned down eight schools with academic scholarships, so that she could play in the Blue Band.

Not only is she sad for the victims, she told me that the uncovering of the crimes and the recent events that have taken place, have left an empty place in her heart. This should be the beginning of the most exciting time of her life, and now she enters this period with sadness and uncertainty.

Shame on Paterno, Spanier and the lot of them. It is clear that they allowed a serial pedophile to thrive on their watch, and their arrogance and selfishness has cast a dark shadow of uncertainty over the decisions of future students for many years to come.

[Ray]

How are innocent people being punished?

Clearly a lot of businesses in the town of State College will be hit hard by the reduced football business, jobs will be lost, the whole town will be a less lively place, at least for a while. The players on the team will surely feel like they're being punished. And those people had nothing to do with the crimes or the cover ups. Just as many people were burned by the Wall Street meltdown 4 years ago that did nothing wrong. Its just kind of inevitable in an interwoven society - something goes wrong and a lot of people pay the price - some who deserve to and many who don't.

I agree with you that the punishment is just and it doesn't go far ENOUGH to my way of thinking. But that doesn't mean that plenty of people will be hurt by it who did nothing to contribute to the problem other than support the University and the football team in the past.

-Ray

[majorpat]

Leaders lead and others follow for good or bad. Those who accepted the responsibilities of leadership failed to do their duty and now many will suffer. Letting it go is no option, despite the second and third order effects to the "innocent".

[MarleyMon]

It's just so sad.

"For certain businesses, the football weekend brings a huge percentage of their annual sales," said Scott Dutt, the owner of Happy Valley Optical in downtown State College. "(Football) keeps the visitors coming, and then coming back."

Eye exams are such an integral part of the football weekend because so many are there to get blind drunk.

"On game weekends, hotel rates can go up by as much as five times and restaurants roll out more expensive menus."
The gouging will have to wait for graduation weekend, I suppose.

No sympathy here, its just the ebb and flow of business - a lot of things are out of one's control.

[harryblack]

What reduced football business? I'm unaware of any "Bowl Games" held in Happy Valley so if Pennsylvanians and others still want to support the team, they can. And if they love "the game" for "the values" it instills and all that other nonsense, they will. Personally, I despise "football culture" (sic) and support the PSU Press, the book publisher, first... then the Classics department... the men's and women's cross country and so forth but that's just me.

Speaking of which, as a former Classics major, the SECOND biggest insult in all this after the unholy Sandusky-Paterno-PSU Admin alliance and all their victims (the abused, that is, not silly sports fans) is the notion that Paterno is some kind of "classics" "scholar" or even buff.

ANYONE with even the slightest familiarity with Greek and Roman history, lit, culture etc knows EXTREMELY well man's and women's, and the gods' great capacity for weakness, caprice, malevolence etc. As well as strength, joy, hot sex (with men and women alike), sublimity, vulgarity, vernacular (including many banned Paceline words) etc.

If Paterno had thought of Sophocles, Homer, Herodotus et al for even ONE SECOND when he first heard of the Sandusky allegations this whole mess never would have happened.



Clearly a lot of businesses in the town of State College will be hit hard by the reduced football business, jobs will be lost, the whole town will be a less lively place, at least for a while. The players on the team will surely feel like they're being punished. And those people had nothing to do with the crimes or the cover ups. Just as many people were burned by the Wall Street meltdown 4 years ago that did nothing wrong. Its just kind of inevitable in an interwoven society - something goes wrong and a lot of people pay the price - some who deserve to and many who don't.

I agree with you that the punishment is just and it doesn't go far ENOUGH to my way of thinking. But that doesn't mean that plenty of people will be hurt by it who did nothing to contribute to the problem other than support the University and the football team in the past.

-Ray

[dave thompson]

What reduced football business? I'm unaware of any "Bowl Games" held in Happy Valley so if Pennsylvanians and others still want to support the team, they can. And if they love "the game" for "the values" it instills and all that other nonsense, they will. Personally, I despise "football culture" (sic) and support the PSU Press, the book publisher, first... then the Classics department... the men's and women's cross country and so forth but that's just me.

Speaking of which, as a former Classics major, the SECOND biggest insult in all this after the unholy Sandusky-Paterno-PSU Admin alliance and all their victims (the abused, that is, not silly sports fans) is the notion that Paterno is some kind of "classics" "scholar" or even buff.

ANYONE with even the slightest familiarity with Greek and Roman history, lit, culture etc knows EXTREMELY well man's and women's, and the gods' great
capacity for weakness, caprice, malevolence etc. As well as strength, joy, hot
sex (with men and women alike), sublimity, vulgarity, vernacular (including
many banned Paceline words) etc.

If Paterno had thought of Sophocles, Homer, Herodotus et al for even ONE SECOND when he first heard of the Sandusky allegations this whole mess never would have happened.

Geez.

[Louis]

If Paterno had thought of Sophocles, Homer, Herodotus et al for even ONE SECOND

Geez.

I agree. Why drag baseball into this?

[BCS]

What reduced football business? I'm unaware of any "Bowl Games" held in Happy Valley so if Pennsylvanians and others still want to support the team, they can.

I agree with this. They still will play 6 or so home games. The NYT article cites the lack of star players and probable poor play may keep visitors away. Wah wah wah. Penn State football has had some lean years in the past decade so I don't think this will be a huge deterrent. There isn't much else to do in central PA anyway. Fans will still show up.

P.S. I REALLY hate the term "Happy Valley". It sounds like a euphemism that a pedophile would use.

[jr59]

P.S. I REALLY hate the term "Happy Valley". It sounds like a euphemism that a pedophile would use.


They did!

[rugbysecondrow]

Just because there is a possible impact, that doesn't mean there is a punishment of innocent people. There will still be a football team, a stadium with full capability to host the same number of patrons, there might still be an opportunity for restaurants to roll out the more expensive menus and the higher rental rates. Frankly, the punishment handed out to the university seems crafted in such a way that the purpose was to mitigate collateral damage. it still allows tourism.

Speaking of tourism, the concern was that tourism would be impacted or punished. I have a couple thoughts on that. 1) that impact might have been felt regardless of what the NCAA did. People voting with their dollars to not support PSU. 2) The concern PSU football team will not be as good and so that will impact tourism. Well, with Paterna leaving and a new coach incoming, that could have resulted in a team not being as competitive, not having the same quality of recruits etc. Locally, no community is promised a competitive team. That is an unreasonable expectation.

Just because there is an impact doesn't mean that impact is a punishement. When you make your living off of tourism, you have to cope with variables out of your control. This is what allows them to charge premium prices at certain times, but it also means the lean times might hurt more as well.

Frankly, it has yet to be seen what the impact will be. I suspect the seats will still be full or mostly full, still people spending money on those 6 weekends.


Clearly a lot of businesses in the town of State College will be hit hard by the reduced football business, jobs will be lost, the whole town will be a less lively place, at least for a while. The players on the team will surely feel like they're being punished. And those people had nothing to do with the crimes or the cover ups. Just as many people were burned by the Wall Street meltdown 4 years ago that did nothing wrong. Its just kind of inevitable in an interwoven society - something goes wrong and a lot of people pay the price - some who deserve to and many who don't.

I agree with you that the punishment is just and it doesn't go far ENOUGH to my way of thinking. But that doesn't mean that plenty of people will be hurt by it who did nothing to contribute to the problem other than support the University and the football team in the past.

-Ray

[djg]

I agree. Why drag baseball into this?

It was a Simpsons reference you fool. What's the world coming to? Doesn't anybody watch TV anymore?

[Birddog]

I wonder how South Park will handle all this. They are frequently right on point.

[MarleyMon]

Now State Farm Insurance is victimizing the town by withdrawing their direct sponsorship of the PSU football team.
Why do college football teams have sponsors beyond the schools they represent?
On a related note, did anyone read about the coming of sponsored jersey patches to the NFL in 2013?

[blantonator]

Collateral damage includes the general student population; in particular the kids who are going to Penn State as freshmen in the Fall. Not the atheltes, the kids that pay full tuition and had to work hard to be accepted at Penn State main campus.


Let's not forget the staff. Since PSU can't cut any sports programs and they are unlikely to raise tuition, it will likely be the already poorly paid staff that will take the brunt of this fine.

[PQJ]

$hit happens when leaders fail, and sometimes people die. See Vietnam. Isn't Penn State University a university? Isn't its mission, first and foremost, education? Seems as if the university (collectively speaking) and those who ran it need to be reminded of that fact, and the NCAA appears to be attempting to do just that.

[tannhauser]

No sympathy here, its just the ebb and flow of business - a lot of things are out of one's control.

Spoken like someone who doesn't live in State College PA. Bravo.

[slowgoing]

Plus I don't think it's a safe assumption that fans from opposing teams won't still come to those six games and spend the same amount of money they did in the past. Maybe more people will want to visit based upon the recent developments.

I agree that it's too speculative to guess what the impact will be at this point.

Also, didn't Penn State try to run Joe out of his head coaching position about 10 or so years ago because the team wasn't doing as well as expected, saying he was too old to be doing this effectively anymore? Didn't he just barely keep his job? How quickly the opinions have changed over time.

[bcm119]

This thread started before the sanctions came down I think... now that the season will still play out, minus one bowl game, the collateral damage will certainly not be as devastating as it could have been, had they been given the "death penalty".

So to people asking "won't they still fill stadium seats?", well yes they will. At the beginning of this thread that was still in question.

Nevertheless, I would not want to be a business owner in State College right now. I wonder how this will effect real estate too.

[Ralph]

[ Isn't Penn State University a university? Isn't its mission, first and foremost, education? Seems as if the university (collectively speaking) and those who ran it need to be reminded of that fact, and the NCAA appears to be attempting to do just that.[/QUOTE]

Wish all Universities w/b reminded of this. It's nuts when a football coach gets paid more and is held in higher esteem than a great math professor, etc. Or a great foot ball player gets more attention on campus than an outstanding student. If up to me.....I would do away with all recruiting, etc. Make every student apply for admission on the basis of their academic skills.....then after they go thru the admission procss and are admitted....they can drop by the atheletic office and say something like....."I just got admitted to your fine University, and BTW I can play football pretty good. How do I try out for the team?"

When both my sons went to U of Florida, I was amazed at the special treatment given the football players re dorms, parking, work out facilities, class help, etc. Just not right and the wrong emphasis.

[firerescuefin]

Isn't Penn State University a university? Isn't its mission, first and foremost, education? Seems as if the university (collectively speaking) and those who ran it need to be reminded of that fact, and the NCAA appears to be attempting to do just that.

We have a winner. It was the over importance placed on the program that led to the incomprehensible decisions made. So we are asking the NCAA to not get too involved... to protect revenue streams. Say that out loud a couple of times. I hope this is a wake up call to similar programs...including my alma mater.

[Aaron O]

We have a winner. It was the over importance placed on the program that led to the incomprehensible decisions made. So we are asking the NCAA to not get too involved... to protect revenue streams. Say that out loud a couple of times. I hope this is a wake up call to similar programs...including my alma mater.

Exactly...do we let a murderer off because of the hardship his employees or family might face? How about the businesses and employees benefiting since 1998 because this wasn't exposed 15 years ago?

[firerescuefin]

When both my sons went to U of Florida, I was amazed at the special treatment given the football players re dorms, parking, work out facilities, class help, etc. Just not right and the wrong emphasis.

That's called a scholarship. Dorms...tutors...food.

I went there. That's hardly wrong or offensive....and there was plenty going on that was (wrong)

[Rada]

Spoken like someone who doesn't live in State College PA. Bravo.

The school as an institution failed horribly. It always sucks when innocent people are made to suffer because of the failings of others. But guess what. Every time the NCAA comes down on a school 99% of the time those guilty are long gone. Nothing is new here, just the severity of the punishment meant to do some justice to how terribly PSU failed those young boys.

[Aaron O]

That's called a scholarship. Dorms...tutors...food.

I went there. That's hardly wrong or offensive....and there was plenty going on that was (wrong)I'd personally prefer seeing an end to this scam...the athletes should be paid as semi-pro athletes and if they can get into a college based on academic merit, fine. If they can't, they have no business taking up space.

[cfox]

Exactly...do we let a murderer off because of the hardship his employees or family might face? How about the businesses and employees benefiting since 1998 because this wasn't exposed 15 years ago?

well said. I wrote almost the same thing a couple of pages back (so I agree with myself), but some folks don't get it. There are a million relevant analogies, but the bottom line is penn state should not go unscathed so a bagel shop won't lose business. I wish they had 2 seasons cancelled.

[bcm119]

well said. I wrote almost the same thing a couple of pages back (so I agree with myself), but some folks don't get it. There are a million relevant analogies, but the bottom line is penn state should not go unscathed so a bagel shop won't lose business. I wish they had 2 seasons cancelled.

It's possible for people to "get it" (your opinion) and disagree with you. This is a huge, complex situation and open to a lot of interpretation, speculation and opinion. It's more helpful to frame your opinion as just that. My opinion is that to say Penn State is going "unscathed" is quite a stretch.

[cfox]

It's possible for people to "get it" (your opinion) and disagree with you. This is a huge, complex situation and open to a lot of interpretation, speculation and opinion. It's more helpful to frame your opinion as just that. My opinion is that to say Penn State is going "unscathed" is quite a stretch.

I wasn't referring to my opinion with the "get it" thing, I was referring to the fact that authorities punish people all the time without regard to how it will affect other people. I know penn state didn't get off unscathed; I was originally responding to a post that argued penn state shouldn't be sanctioned because it would harm uninvolved parties (students, local biz, etc).

[harryblack]

Again, EXCEPT for one potential bowl game, why does this have to have ANY adverse economic effect on State College?

I know you're not making that argument BCM119 but those who are sound ridiculous...

If Penn State fans are so "devoted" to the "ideals" they "thought" Paterno & others represented (they didn't, and they didn't even know the meaning of those ideals they proffered) then go to the games, drink up, bring in hookers from Philly and Harrisburg per usual, buy Nittany Lion cozies, foam fingers, sleeveless blankets etc and have a GOOD TIME.

What's changed? So they're more likely to lose. It's about participation and teaching boys to be men and citizens etc.

"Funny" that we're supposed to have empathy for the idea that "Nittany Nation" as filtered through State College or whatever only backs a potential "winner" (though I have good friends who cursed the mediocre Paterno years a decade ago).

I know some folks are saying otherwise but I think PSU got off EASY; going cold turkey without football for x years what have been far more damaging economically.

This thread started before the sanctions came down I think... now that the season will still play out, minus one bowl game, the collateral damage will certainly not be as devastating as it could have been, had they been given the "death penalty".

So to people asking "won't they still fill stadium seats?", well yes they will. At the beginning of this thread that was still in question.

Nevertheless, I would not want to be a business owner in State College right now. I wonder how this will effect real estate too.

[bcm119]

Yeah, I agree Harry. I was always turned off by the lofty rhetoric of PSU athletics, the keywords they threw around about Success, Integrity, etc. I thought it was all a bunch of b.s. as a student there, and consequently I chose to only participate for one year as a student athlete, and then focused on academics—a decision I’ve never regretted. I don’t think college sports teach anything about “being a man”, or a citizen… in fact it is a very insular experience being a college athlete. A lot of “successful” student athletes find themselves quite frustrated once they enter the real world, where things are a lot more complex than “hard work=success” . But that is a whole ‘nother topic. As for the football fans, I always identified more with the kind who acknowledge that watching football is just an excuse to open a beer at noon, and nothing more. To believe that “your” team is anything but entertainment is silly. Learning that Paterno was, in fact, all about the $$ in the end is a tough but valuable lesson for fans. I’m sure there are a million other cases of people leading cash cow enterprises who would look the other way to protect their revenue, all the while piling on b.s. to make us think otherwise.

Again, EXCEPT for one potential bowl game, why does this have to have ANY adverse economic effect on State College?

I know you're not making that argument BCM119 but those who are sound ridiculous...

If Penn State fans are so "devoted" to the "ideals" they "thought" Paterno & others represented (they didn't, and they didn't even know the meaning of those ideals they proffered) then go to the games, drink up, bring in hookers from Philly and Harrisburg per usual, buy Nittany Lion cozies, foam fingers, sleeveless blankets etc and have a GOOD TIME.

What's changed? So they're more likely to lose. It's about participation and teaching boys to be men and citizens etc.

"Funny" that we're supposed to have empathy for the idea that "Nittany Nation" as filtered through State College or whatever only backs a potential "winner" (though I have good friends who cursed the mediocre Paterno years a decade ago).

I know some folks are saying otherwise but I think PSU got off EASY; going cold turkey without football for x years what have been far more damaging economically.

[palincss]

well said. I wrote almost the same thing a couple of pages back (so I agree with myself), but some folks don't get it. There are a million relevant analogies, but the bottom line is penn state should not go unscathed so a bagel shop won't lose business. I wish they had 2 seasons cancelled.

They covered up the evidence and allowed a sexual predator to continue committing crimes so as to not jeopardize the football program, right? The effects of pedophile sexual abuse are often life-long; in my opinion the punishment for that should last as long as the effects of the crime. "Fair" would be a total ban on football at that school for as long as any of the victims live. I think they got off very easy.

[Aaron O]

They covered up the evidence and allowed a sexual predator to continue committing crimes so as to not jeopardize the football program, right? The effects of pedophile sexual abuse are often life-long; in my opinion the punishment for that should last as long as the effects of the crime. "Fair" would be a total ban on football at that school for as long as any of the victims live. I think they got off very easy.

And even more than life long since abused kids often become molesters and continue the cycle.

I understand that there are sick people out there - Sandusky is clearly a sick guy with faulty wiring. In a way I almost sympathize - just like I'm wired to be attracted to women my age, he's wired this way. What I don't understand is how someone like this doesn't just end it. If you know you have these feelings, and always will, and you know that you have no place in society, why would you put others at risk and not just end it?

[tannhauser]

The school as an institution failed horribly. It always sucks when innocent people are made to suffer because of the failings of others. But guess what. Every time the NCAA comes down on a school 99% of the time those guilty are long gone. Nothing is new here, just the severity of the punishment meant to do some justice to how terribly PSU failed those young boys.

Exactly. Punish the individuals who were complicit, not the ones still standing. If the NCAA had the will they might demand investigations into the accused and hang the threat of punishment over the Uni's head. If the NCAA is satisfied every last guilty party has been given due process I see no need for punitive actions against the entire school/community.

[e-RICHIE]

They covered up the evidence and allowed a sexual predator to continue committing crimes so as to not jeopardize the football program, right? The effects of pedophile sexual abuse are often life-long; in my opinion the punishment for that should last as long as the effects of the crime. "Fair" would be a total ban on football at that school for as long as any of the victims live. I think they got off very easy.

This ^^ exponentially atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::cool:
:):):)
:rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

[rab]

They covered up the evidence and allowed a sexual predator to continue committing crimes so as to not jeopardize the football program, right? The effects of pedophile sexual abuse are often life-long; in my opinion the punishment for that should last as long as the effects of the crime. "Fair" would be a total ban on football at that school for as long as any of the victims live. I think they got off very easy.

Who exactly is getting off easily? And I mean, specifically what individuals?
How exactly can you produce a punishment to fit the crime? That would be great but I struggle to come up with realistic answers, aside from hitting those directly responsible as harshly as possible. Killing a football program wouldn't really do that, it just seems to make a lot of people happier like it will somehow really provide more vindication.

And let us not forget that the REAL authorities are still stirring about, this is just the NCAA which has decided to finally take a stand about the corrupting effects of the big business of college athletics. I wouldn't be shocked to find some ugly details about other high ranking individuals as the investigations/trials go forward. Can't forget that the true perpetrators have yet to face their judgement day.

Banning football for life? OK, 5-10 years down the road and everybody at the university has adjusted to this and it would be a fading memory...but that doesn't change what happened, if anything it is just one more effort to erase aspects of the history...while the victims live on.

Education is big business, and to everyone who keeps talking about how football ran the university etc., think again. Want to see some big dollars, look at the research funding corporations put into the universities. This just isn't quite as glamorous as a football program. While I was in school, I sometimes thought the priorities went something like 1) research/corporate investment 2) athletics 3) student education. Another potential avenue for serious moral corruption I suspect as well. Anytime there is that much money potentially involved, there is the risk of people making the wrong decisions.

[bcm119]

They covered up the evidence and allowed a sexual predator to continue committing crimes so as to not jeopardize the football program, right? The effects of pedophile sexual abuse are often life-long; in my opinion the punishment for that should last as long as the effects of the crime. "Fair" would be a total ban on football at that school for as long as any of the victims live. I think they got off very easy.

I just can't wrap my head around this logic. I'm with you right up until "Fair"...

The actual criminal activity seems like a simple situation: some bad guys, some innocent kids, and a large revenue stream. The bad guys can save the kids, or keep the revenue stream, but not both. They make the wrong decision, which results in tragedy. Was it the revenue that caused them to make a bad decision? Yes. Is the revenue stream at fault for the resulting tragedy? No, the people who made the bad decision are at fault.

I think that to some degree, the severity of the crime itself is so extreme that life in prison just isn't enough to satisfy people's sense of justice, so the football program needs to fill in that deficit.

[tannhauser]

I just can't wrap my head around this logic. I'm with you right up until "Fair"...

The actual criminal activity seems like a simple situation: some bad guys, some innocent kids, and a large revenue stream. The bad guys can save the kids, or keep the revenue stream, but not both. They make the wrong decision, which results in tragedy. Was it the revenue that caused them to make a bad decision? Yes. Is the revenue stream at fault for the resulting tragedy? No, the people who made the bad decision are at fault.

I think that to some degree, the severity of the crime itself is so extreme that life in prison just isn't enough to satisfy people's sense of justice, so the football program needs to fill in that deficit.

Excellent.

[Earl Gray]

I just can't wrap my head around this logic. I'm with you right up until "Fair"...

The actual criminal activity seems like a simple situation: some bad guys, some innocent kids, and a large revenue stream. The bad guys can save the kids, or keep the revenue stream, but not both. They make the wrong decision, which results in tragedy. Was it the revenue that caused them to make a bad decision? Yes. Is the revenue stream at fault for the resulting tragedy? No, the people who made the bad decision are at fault.

I think that to some degree, the severity of the crime itself is so extreme that life in prison just isn't enough to satisfy people's sense of justice, so the football program needs to fill in that deficit.

This ^^ exponentially correct

When blaming someone isn't enough, let's blame something.

[csm]

given the amounts of money, and length of time involved, I think it's time they re-opened the Ray Gricar disappearance up there. Ray was the da for centre county and vanished several years back. they found only his car and a damaged laptop.
not sure if anyone touched on this in the previous 10 pages... I guess I could go read them....

[jimcav]

given the amounts of money, and length of time involved, I think it's time they re-opened the Ray Gricar disappearance up there. Ray was the da for centre county and vanished several years back. they found only his car and a damaged laptop.
not sure if anyone touched on this in the previous 10 pages... I guess I could go read them....

but it fits the rest of this horrible script, perhaps one guy was going to do the right thing, and so was eliminated. bad enough all the acts of ommission to preserve the program, realy sad to think of going to that ultimate level of commission...is the mob involved too?

[Chance]

On principle can’t agree with much of anything stated on this thread on either side except for this:

I think that to some degree, the severity of the crime itself is so extreme that life in prison just isn't enough to satisfy people's sense of justice, so the football program needs to fill in that deficit.

Personally can never justify knowingly punishing the innocent. Period. To me it’s simply wrong. It’s uncivilized.

It’s easy enough to “get” that sometimes innocent people are affected by punishment, however, we should only pursue that when it’s unavoidable. An example is when a man is sent to prison for 20 years. His wife and kids will suffer consequential punishment, but that’s unavoidable. A necessary evil.

In this case it’s easy enough to punish the guilty without intentionally punishing the innocent in the process. It’s not hard to feel rage for what happened (which most of us do), but knowingly punishing a single innocent person makes us guilty in our own way of a different crime. It just doesn’t make sense.

If we want greater punishment to discourage this type of action then increase punishment for those actually found guilty. If we want to make a point or simply want blood it’s OK with me to string them up in public. Torture them ahead of time too if you really feel like it’s warranted. Whatever it takes to make your point, but not by using innocent people in the process. Although it would undoubtedly be effective, our justice system is not based on punishing the innocent because it’s not civil. It’s beneath us.



For the record, have no affiliation with PSU.

[tannhauser]

I have to say I am enjoying the clear-headed thinking at this end of the thread now that, you know, facts are out and such.

Note to self: always wait until folks are calmed by facts before posting.

[BCS]

I have to say I am enjoying the clear-headed thinking at this end of the thread now that, you know, facts are out and such.

Note to self: always wait until folks are calmed by facts before posting.

I am curious to know what punishment, if any, you would advocate if you were the head of the NCAA. Enlighten us.

[tannhauser]

I am curious to know what punishment, if any, you would advocate if you were the head of the NCAA. Enlighten us.

I said it already -- the NCAA should closely supervise any investigations, whether it's by PSU, the state or local police, whatever. See if there are any further attempts at cover ups. If not fully satisfied that the guilty have been brought to light due to obfuscation or whatever, then fully sanction the football and/or athletic programs.

I doubt the NCAA has the political bureaucratic will to do the right thing; it is much simpler to sanction a university than to commit to a long-term investigation. They have to function within budgets too, with limited staff to supervise the entire country's collegiate sports programs.

But given the magnitude of repercussions I, AS THE HEAD OF THE NCAA, would at least get to ground zero and speak with the president of the U, faculty, admins, business owners, ordinary citizens, before handing out a monstrously penal sentence.

Anyway, it's all fantasy land but that's what I would do.

[wc1934]

Never thought I would agree with Bob Knight, but on this topic I do. He was on Mike and Mike this morning and thought that the NCAA rulings overstepped their boundaries, that PSU should not have had wins vacated (players on the field/court win games, not coaches), that the players accomplishments should not be taken away and that the sanctions will effect the other (non-football) programs - that plus a whole lot more.

[jbrainin]

In the aftermath of the 1951 gambling scandal involving its basketball team, NYU stopped participating in Division One sports. NYU is now a Division Three school. This is a rare instance (another is University of San Francisco) in which a university acted decisively to demonstrate that academics were more important than sports. PSU would do well to follow this example (but hell probably will freeze over first.)

[Rada]

Exactly. Punish the individuals who were complicit, not the ones still standing. If the NCAA had the will they might demand investigations into the accused and hang the threat of punishment over the Uni's head. If the NCAA is satisfied every last guilty party has been given due process I see no need for punitive actions against the entire school/community.

You don't get it. The entire institition failed, from the top to the bottom. Why would the NCAA go against precedent and not punish PSU and just go after the individuals, at the sickest and cruellest moment in college sports history?

[rab]

In the aftermath of the 1951 gambling scandal involving its basketball team, NYU stopped participating in Division One sports. NYU is now a Division Three school. This is a rare instance (another is University of San Francisco) in which a university acted decisively to demonstrate that academics were more important than sports. PSU would do well to follow this example (but hell probably will freeze over first.)

That would be nice. And if hell did freeze over they would be playing hockey on it.

PSU still has a lot of other very strong sports so I don't see academics making a giant thrust in front, but hopefully this serves as one more, very extreme example of what can happen when too much emphasis is put on sports, maybe help sway the balance a bit. At the same time I am not totally sure it was just about football as much as just a general image/PR nightmare for the university and certainly the people directly involved.

[tannhauser]

You don't get it. The entire institition failed, from the top to the bottom. Why would the NCAA go against precedent and not punish PSU and just go after the individuals, at the sickest and cruellest moment in college sports history?

I said it in my earlier posts, not gonna repeat it.

[Rada]

I said it in my earlier posts, not gonna repeat it.

Well good luck with that.

[tannhauser]

Well good luck with that.

In a dream world anything is possible.

[Earl Gray]

I watched an ESPN special "outside the lines" regarding the PSU issue and will admit I came away with a different view.

I do understand why the NCAA needed to take a strong stance directly against the University.

It is not about fairness, it really does come down to making a statement that needs to be made.

I'm thankful the decision was not mine to make.

[tannhauser]

I watched an ESPN special "outside the lines" regarding the PSU issue and will admit I came away with a different view.

I do understand why the NCAA needed to take a strong stance directly against the University.

It is not about fairness, it really does come down to making a statement that needs to be made.

I'm thankful the decision was not mine to make.


Strong stances are necessary to establish the rule of law, that much is true.

I feel like, as I said earlier, if the NCAA were to establish a very strong internal mechanism for violations review one would still have a penal system if needed to mete out sanctions, as we have here.

Anyway I didn't see it so feel free to correct if it showed a compelling viewpoint.

[justinrchan]

Here is the interview with Mark Emmert. Watch the end where Emmert has no response to Bob Ley when Emmert says he defines success by graduating kids and them doing things right. Ley then says that's how they did things at Penn State except for the higher up failure.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8197154

[tannhauser]

The Death Penalty was not imposed in large part out of consideration of the community. I think that's fair.

[rab]

Here is the interview with Mark Emmert. Watch the end where Emmert has no response to Bob Ley when Emmert says he defines success by graduating kids and them doing things right. Ley then says that's how they did things at Penn State except for the higher up failure.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8197154

Things like this are what initially made me question the scope of the NCAA's involvement.

Don't get me wrong, not saying they should not be involved at all, but how they would address it worried me. As it turns out I have mixed feelings on how they did handle it. (so far) I am very glad to see a large chunk of money will go to organizations involved with victims of abuse. Taking away wins strikes me as a futile, and somewhat misguided punishment that is more like a personal attack. Seriously...we can "rewrite" records but you can't change the true history. I think they knew they had PSU against a wall and could pretty much do what they wanted without resistance.

If the NCAA is going to start wielding a heavy sword I stand and applaud, it is about time. I do have an issue with a regulatory/oversight group that lacks consistency with it's actions and has essentially now declared it can make up the rules as it goes. Would this not in itself be considered a lack of institutional control, at least to some degree? Having procedures, rules, guidelines...all meaningless if an organization can pick and choose when and how it wants to use them.

Based on the number of violations over recent years, it doesn't seem that things are improving, which tells me the institutions in general are still not getting it. Or maybe the policing is just that much better?
Which gets to the other issue I have with the NCAA and it's sanctions - they typically affect those who were not responsible or directly involved. It puts pressure on the intitutions to ensure they hire the right people, but how about something new, something REALLY tough on those directly to blame. Maybe throw down the death penalty on players, coaches, administration etc. Gets back to applying the punishment to those who most deserve it. You coach a dirty program you don't coach in the NCAA again. Take money/benefits to play you lose the right to play college sports. Try and get some NFL buy in (good luck I suspect) and make players liable even after they are gone. Reggie Bush probably would care a lot more if his NFL salary was garnished and sent back to a USC educational program or the NCAA.

While we are talking about unprecedented, maybe the NCAA needs to look at itself and realize it has to change too.

[rab]

The Death Penalty was not imposed in large part out of consideration of the community. I think that's fair.

Totally agree. It should truly help minimize the economic impact on the community. Football is a huge cash cow, but in general, the University is the lifeblood of the community and it isn't going anywhere so I can't see too many businesses put in peril due to lower than usual football attendance if it works out that way.

[mjb266]

We Are....
....Penn State

In good times and bad those of us who have chanted this identity need to stick by that affiliation and not abandon an institution and experience that was so influential in our lives. It's been tough for me to characterize my response to the title of this thread, but I think it's important to differentiate Happy Valley from Jerry Sandusky.

As an alumni, it has been tough to wrap my head around the scandal of the last eight months. I have a couple of degrees from PSU and loved the time that I spent in University Park. I worked for years in local bike and outdoor shops and at restaurants ranging from The Diner to the State College Inn. I taught in the State College High School and spent countless hours on the area roads and trails.

Happy Valley and Penn State are so much more than simply a football program. In the end, State College and PSU are still amazing places and will be stronger in the long run whether football returns or dies off.

Many of us made a mistake and chose to envision someone (JoePa) as being more than human, and in the end he joins all of those heroes I've had in the past who made mistakes. We've all grown up in the era of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, outside of athletics we've got Nixon, Clinton, John Edwards, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Anthony Weiner...the list is endless.

Other than Nelson Mandella or Mother Theresa I don't know that there are very many influential/powerful people out there that don't make crappy decisions during their lifetimes. JoePa was wrong, Penn State was wrong. Despite that failing, I am still a part of the institution and proud of it.

I am...Penn State

[rab]

We Are....
....Penn State

In good times and bad those of us who have chanted this identity need to stick by that affiliation and not abandon an institution and experience that was so influential in our lives. It's been tough for me to characterize my response to the title of this thread, but I think it's important to differentiate Happy Valley from Jerry Sandusky.

As an alumni, it has been tough to wrap my head around the scandal of the last eight months. I have a couple of degrees from PSU and loved the time that I spent in University Park. I worked for years in local bike and outdoor shops and at restaurants ranging from The Diner to the State College Inn. I taught in the State College High School and spent countless hours on the area roads and trails.

Happy Valley and Penn State are so much more than simply a football program. In the end, State College and PSU are still amazing places and will be stronger in the long run whether football returns or dies off.

Many of us made a mistake and chose to envision someone (JoePa) as being more than human, and in the end he joins all of those heroes I've had in the past who made mistakes. We've all grown up in the era of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, outside of athletics we've got Nixon, Clinton, John Edwards, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Anthony Weiner...the list is endless.

Other than Nelson Mandella or Mother Theresa I don't know that there are very many influential/powerful people out there that don't make crappy decisions during their lifetimes. JoePa was wrong, Penn State was wrong. Despite that failing, I am still a part of the institution and proud of it.

I am...Penn State

Very nicely stated. Penn State/Happy Valley is so much more than just a big football program. I think that long term this whole mess may actually help draw the community closer together and show what We Are Penn State TRULY embodies.

[Louis]

Penn State/Happy Valley is so much more than just a big football program.

Unfortunately, it's taken the last few months for many folks to realize this also.

[cfox]

The Death Penalty was not imposed in large part out of consideration of the community. I think that's fair.
the death penalty was not imposed in large part (read all) so as to not eff up the big 10 and in-place tv deals.

[Climb01742]

PSU agreed to the penalties imposed. without threat of legal action. had the death penalty been put on the table, PSU could have sued citing the NCAA's lack of jurisdiction. that would have gotten messy and expensive for everyone.

as with virtually all actions between two powerful, lawyered-up entities, i'd guess there was some negotiation involved about what the NCCA would do and PSU's response.

[Rada]

the death penalty was not imposed in large part (read all) so as to not eff up the pac-10 and in-place tv deals.

Yeah, I think this is closer to the truth. The Big 10 has expanded and split into two divisions so it can have a conferance championship game at the end of the season. Lots of big money on the line if a death penalty was involved.

[Aaron O]

We Are....
....Penn State

In good times and bad those of us who have chanted this identity need to stick by that affiliation and not abandon an institution and experience that was so influential in our lives. It's been tough for me to characterize my response to the title of this thread, but I think it's important to differentiate Happy Valley from Jerry Sandusky.

As an alumni, it has been tough to wrap my head around the scandal of the last eight months. I have a couple of degrees from PSU and loved the time that I spent in University Park. I worked for years in local bike and outdoor shops and at restaurants ranging from The Diner to the State College Inn. I taught in the State College High School and spent countless hours on the area roads and trails.

Happy Valley and Penn State are so much more than simply a football program. In the end, State College and PSU are still amazing places and will be stronger in the long run whether football returns or dies off.

Many of us made a mistake and chose to envision someone (JoePa) as being more than human, and in the end he joins all of those heroes I've had in the past who made mistakes. We've all grown up in the era of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods, Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, outside of athletics we've got Nixon, Clinton, John Edwards, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Anthony Weiner...the list is endless.

Other than Nelson Mandella or Mother Theresa I don't know that there are very many influential/powerful people out there that don't make crappy decisions during their lifetimes. JoePa was wrong, Penn State was wrong. Despite that failing, I am still a part of the institution and proud of it.

I am...Penn State

I just don't understand this mentality. Maybe it's my nature as an individualist, but it's just a college. You go there, you have some fun, you spend money for a degree and you get on with your life. You have a couple of friends you'll stay in touch with and you have nothing in common with the people still at the school. You come into contact with a very small percentage of the people who work and attend classes there and, frankly, have nothing in common with them other than going to different classes at the same geographical location. I always thought the alumni showing up on campus were just outright weird.

Comparing what Paterno did to the other people you mentioned is totally off base in my opinion; those people made choices that impacted themselves and maybe their families. Barry Bonds doing steroids is not the same as helping to protect a child molester. There are child molesters out there and they're going to put themselves in position to be near kids. That's not the issue. The issue was how PSU as an institution protected its ass as more important than the damage to kids. Your post, while saying Paterno was wrong, and PSU were wrong, makes it sound like they made a small error...like steroids, or adultery. That's not what happened...they contributed to and defended child rape.

This also wasn't Paterno's first morally nauseating moment - his defense of Rene Portland made me sick to my stomach. This was another power hungry despot who ruined lives. She took advantage of families over a difficult issue and it was all BS.

My heroes are my parents...they made mistakes, but they've always been there. My wife is a hero. Institutions and people I don't know? Not so much.

We are Aaron...my college is a place I went to school 15 years ago.

[rugbysecondrow]

Comparing what Paterno did to the other people you mentioned is totally off base in my opinion; those people made choices that impacted themselves and maybe their families. Barry Bonds doing steroids is not the same as helping to protect a child molester. There are child molesters out there and they're going to put themselves in position to be near kids. That's not the issue. The issue was how PSU as an institution protected its ass as more important than the damage to kids. Your post, while saying Paterno was wrong, and PSU were wrong, makes it sound like they made a small error...like steroids, or adultery. That's not what happened...they contributed to and defended child rape.



Agreed

[cfox]

I just don't understand this mentality. Maybe it's my nature as an individualist, but it's just a college. You go there, you have some fun, you spend money for a degree and you get on with your life. You have a couple of friends you'll stay in touch with and you have nothing in common with the people still at the school. You come into contact with a very small percentage of the people who work and attend classes there and, frankly, have nothing in common with them other than going to different classes at the same geographical location. I always thought the alumni showing up on campus were just outright weird.

Comparing what Paterno did to the other people you mentioned is totally off base in my opinion; those people made choices that impacted themselves and maybe their families. Barry Bonds doing steroids is not the same as helping to protect a child molester. There are child molesters out there and they're going to put themselves in position to be near kids. That's not the issue. The issue was how PSU as an institution protected its ass as more important than the damage to kids. Your post, while saying Paterno was wrong, and PSU were wrong, makes it sound like they made a small error...like steroids, or adultery. That's not what happened...they contributed to and defended child rape.

This also wasn't Paterno's first morally nauseating moment - his defense of Rene Portland made me sick to my stomach. This was another power hungry despot who ruined lives. She took advantage of families over a difficult issue and it was all BS.

My heroes are my parents...they made mistakes, but they've always been there. My wife is a hero. Institutions and people I don't know? Not so much.

We are Aaron...my college is a place I went to school 15 years ago.

EXCELLENT post. I find it weird/sad when people still cling to their college as a source of overarching pride or achievement. It's four years of your life... back when you were a kid.

[MarleyMon]

Spoken like someone who doesn't live in State College PA. Bravo.

Will you shed a tear for the restaurant workers in my town who will be adversely impacted by games being rescheduled to late afternoon and evening? They will lose 30% or more of their seatings because of other people's decisions.

Why shouldn't those who feasted on the crumbs JoePa created also taste his ignominy?

[Aaron O]

Will you shed a tear for the restaurant workers in my town who will be adversely impacted by games being rescheduled to late afternoon and evening? They will lose 30% or more of their seatings because of other people's decisions.

Why shouldn't those who feasted on the crumbs JoePa created also taste his ignominy?

+1...if you are born to successful parents you gain access to their circles and networks. You inherit influence. When they fall due to behavior, the child of inherited nobility expects to be shielded from the fall. Everyone wants the benefit and no one wants the cost. I understand that the Paterno family is trying to protect the patriarch's legacy, but their behavior is coming across as petty and insensitive. Also - didn't Joe Pa transfer all of his assets to his wife shortly before the scandal broke? If I were the Paternos, I'd be looking at moving and a name change. I'd be very quiet.

What traditionally happens to the king's sires when he is dethroned? What happens to his court?

[PQJ]

What traditionally happens to the king's sires when he is dethroned? What happens to his court?

I believe, when you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die. ;)

[tannhauser]

the death penalty was not imposed in large part (read all) so as to not eff up the pac-10 and in-place tv deals.

If you insist.

[tannhauser]

Will you shed a tear for the restaurant workers in my town who will be adversely impacted by games being rescheduled to late afternoon and evening? They will lose 30% or more of their seatings because of other people's decisions.

Why shouldn't those who feasted on the crumbs JoePa created also taste his ignominy?

Huh?

[MarleyMon]

huh?

+1

[tannhauser]

+1

-1

=

0

[mjb266]

I think you uys need to reflect on what identity is and how it is created. Identity is a set of affiliations that you hold and distinctions that you make between yourselves and others. College affiliation as a sense of identity is pretty damned normal when you think about how you define who you are. People define themselves according to profession, nationality, gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic class...athlete, etc.

I don't think there is anything abnormal for individuals who choose to share an educational experience as being part of how they define themselves, certainly no worse than being "a Serotta owner" or a "bike aficionado".

Penn State and the Nittany Valley offer a very special experience. Special enough that those of us fortunate enough to go there choose to use it to identify ourselves. Don't bash on those who appreciate their University experience until you are willing to criticize how you've chosen to define yourself.

EXCELLENT post. I find it weird/sad when people still cling to their college as a source of overarching pride or achievement. It's four years of your life... back when you were a kid.

[GregL]

My wife's cousin and her husband are fairly recent (2003) Penn State alums. Their facebook postings defending Penn State have been almost maniacal. No one is criticizing their choice of college or the quality of their education. They aren't evil because they went to Penn State. The appropriate criticism is against the leadership of the school who allowed children to be raped. It's sad when people's identities and objectivity become so intertwined that they cannot see this situation clearly. Penn State administration made gross errors. The NCAA is making an example of the school to (hopefully) ensure such errors are never made again.

- Greg

[rab]

My wife's cousin and her husband are fairly recent (2003) Penn State alums. Their facebook postings defending Penn State have been almost maniacal. No one is criticizing their choice of college or the quality of their education. They aren't evil because they went to Penn State. The appropriate criticism is against the leadership of the school who allowed children to be raped. It's sad when people's identities and objectivity become so intertwined that they cannot see this situation clearly. Penn State administration made gross errors. The NCAA is making an example of the school to (hopefully) ensure such errors are never made again.

- Greg

Very good examples/points. There are a lot of people that have not been able to take rational views about this whole situation. I think some of those on the PSU side are in denial, others have become hyper-defensive due to so much negativity directed at PSU, some of which is also pretty misguided. I also know a few such people whose actions are baffling to me.

Hero worship certainly can be blinding it seems.

[Aaron O]

I think you uys need to reflect on what identity is and how it is created. Identity is a set of affiliations that you hold and distinctions that you make between yourselves and others. College affiliation as a sense of identity is pretty damned normal when you think about how you define who you are. People define themselves according to profession, nationality, gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic class...athlete, etc.

I don't think there is anything abnormal for individuals who choose to share an educational experience as being part of how they define themselves, certainly no worse than being "a Serotta owner" or a "bike aficionado".

Penn State and the Nittany Valley offer a very special experience. Special enough that those of us fortunate enough to go there choose to use it to identify ourselves. Don't bash on those who appreciate their University experience until you are willing to criticize how you've chosen to define yourself.

If that is how you define yourself, and it makes you happy, I have no problem with it. I just don't understand it. I don't define myself by my purchases either. I've been to PSU and consider it an education factory, pretty much like any other.

Your initial post has an attitude of "he's a human who just made a mistake" and then lists other people who made mistakes like adultery. That's not how this works. If you murder someone, your identity thereafter is as a murderer. That's what you are...a murderer. You can atone for 50 years, you can found a ballet, and you'll still be remembered as a murderer. There are things that define us as human beings. What now defines Joe Paterno is protecting his arse and helping to shield a child rapist. The secondary thing that defines him is defending Rene Portland's abuse of young women and destruction of their dreams.

Building the football team? A distant third.

[BCS]

I
Penn State and the Nittany Valley offer a very special experience. Special enough that those of us fortunate enough to go there choose to use it to identify ourselves..

The academic reputation of Penn State coupled with 3 Big 10 titles since joining the conference 1993 are very special??

I guess I just don't understand "We are Penn State"

PS- I went to college in Pennsylvania and lived there for eight years

[bcm119]

If that is how you define yourself, and it makes you happy, I have no problem with it. I just don't understand it. I don't define myself by my purchases either. I've been to PSU and consider it an education factory, pretty much like any other.
...


A university can be more than a product; universities are educational environments. Environments shape identities. For example, I went to Penn State for their meteorology program, but I discovered the geography dept along the way, connected with the folks in it, and they helped me find my niche. I've built a career from what I was introduced to there. Had I gone to a different university, I may not have felt the same connection with the geography dept, if there even was one. Therefore, I credit Penn State with playing a part in shaping my identity, along with many other factors. Many people count their parents, friends, coaches, schools and universities with shaping their identity, and it has nothing to do with product branding or school colors, just people and environment.

That said, I can understand the defensiveness PSU alums are showing in light of the often misguided attacks and snide remarks about PSU; there are many good folks at PSU who are being dragged into this now because of people's craving for some sort of justice. It does not excuse the irrational defenses of Paterno or other guilty parties though.

[Chance]

My wife's cousin and her husband are fairly recent (2003) Penn State alums. Their facebook postings defending Penn State have been almost maniacal. No one is criticizing their choice of college or the quality of their education. They aren't evil because they went to Penn State. The appropriate criticism is against the leadership of the school who allowed children to be raped. It's sad when people's identities and objectivity become so intertwined that they cannot see this situation clearly. Penn State administration made gross errors. The NCAA is making an example of the school to (hopefully) ensure such errors are never made again.

- Greg

And Greg, by seeing the situation clearly you no doubt mean seeing it as you do, right?;)

[Aaron O]

A university can be more than a product; universities are educational environments. Environments shape identities. For example, I went to Penn State for their meteorology program, but I discovered the geography dept along the way, connected with the folks in it, and they helped me find my niche. I've built a career from what I was introduced to there. Had I gone to a different university, I may not have felt the same connection with the geography dept, if there even was one. Therefore, I credit Penn State with playing a part in shaping my identity, along with many other factors. Many people count their parents, friends, coaches, schools and universities with shaping their identity, and it has nothing to do with product branding or school colors, just people and environment.

That said, I can understand the defensiveness PSU alums are showing in light of the often misguided attacks and snide remarks about PSU; there are many good folks at PSU who are being dragged into this now because of people's craving for some sort of justice. It does not excuse the irrational defenses of Paterno or other guilty parties though.

That was a well thought out post - it makes more sense to me now. You are clearly much more engaged with your career than I am with mine. I can't even imagine feeling that way about my job and I envy you. Priorities are funny...I don't think work would ever be mine, regardless of what I'm doing. Work is a means to an end for me. I enjoy my job, I like the people I work with...but when I leave at 5, that's it.

[youngman]

A university can be more than a product; universities are educational environments. Environments shape identities. For example, I went to Penn State for their meteorology program, but I discovered the geography dept along the way, connected with the folks in it, and they helped me find my niche. I've built a career from what I was introduced to there. Had I gone to a different university, I may not have felt the same connection with the geography dept, if there even was one. Therefore, I credit Penn State with playing a part in shaping my identity, along with many other factors. Many people count their parents, friends, coaches, schools and universities with shaping their identity, and it has nothing to do with product branding or school colors, just people and environment.

That said, I can understand the defensiveness PSU alums are showing in light of the often misguided attacks and snide remarks about PSU; there are many good folks at PSU who are being dragged into this now because of people's craving for some sort of justice. It does not excuse the irrational defenses of Paterno or other guilty parties though.

That is indeed a thoughtful post on PSU.

[mjb266]

I never mentioned football, big ten titles, or academic reputation. By doing so you essentialize the university and town as much as those who blindly defend the institution. Having lived all over PA, I will say that it is quite different than most places. Going to school in Pennsylvania doesn't mean you've had the pleasure of riding the John Wert Trail to Bear Meadows or over Pine Grove Mills to Alexandria.

The academic reputation of Penn State coupled with 3 Big 10 titles since joining the conference 1993 are very special??

I guess I just don't understand "We are Penn State"

PS- I went to college in Pennsylvania and lived there for eight years

[benb]

Not to pile on more but I think the harsh penalties that hit *everyone* around PSU were needed as a deterrent.

They need to deter people from falling back into the "football is god" mentality that let this happen.

While the scale is different I think the comparison to the Catholic Church scandals are dead on the money. PSU is/was full of religious devotion to football, religious devotion or something close to it seems to be required for events this ridiculous to take place. The only difference (and I say this as a Catholic) is that PSU fans seem more united in their defense of the football program then lay Catholics were/are in defense of the church hierarchy.

[rice rocket]

Perhaps you all don't know the details of the case (I didn't/don't), but here's a good graphic showing parties involved, and how many people knew and did not act. This was not a simple coverup, it was a pervasive problem in the university, which is why the punishment is so harsh.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Gerald_Sandusky_Sexual_Abuse_Findings_of_Grand_Jur y.png/800px-Gerald_Sandusky_Sexual_Abuse_Findings_of_Grand_Jur y.png

[GregL]

And Greg, by seeing the situation clearly you no doubt mean seeing it as you do, right?;)

No, I sincerely want to hear different points of view. How I see things hopefully will evolve through healthy discourse with others. I was trying to point out my disappointment with some of those closely aligned with PSU who, in my opinion, we're not as willing to see other points of view.

- Greg

[justinrchan]

Penn State is #45 in the US News & World Report rankings in 2012. Not too shabby.


The academic reputation of Penn State coupled with 3 Big 10 titles since joining the conference 1993 are very special??

I guess I just don't understand "We are Penn State"

PS- I went to college in Pennsylvania and lived there for eight years

[tuxbailey]

Perhaps you all don't know the details of the case (I didn't/don't), but here's a good graphic showing parties involved, and how many people knew and did not act. This was not a simple coverup, it was a pervasive problem in the university, which is why the punishment is so harsh.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Gerald_Sandusky_Sexual_Abuse_Findings_of_Grand_Jur y.png/800px-Gerald_Sandusky_Sexual_Abuse_Findings_of_Grand_Jur y.png


A picture is worth a thousand words. All these people with knowledge and not a peep.

It is a shame that local law enforcement did not do any investigation following the knowledge of existing victims.

[Wilkinson4]

A picture is worth a thousand words. All these people with knowledge and not a peep.

It is a shame that local law enforcement did not do any investigation following the knowledge of existing victims.


Man, that just made me want to cry. I don't know how, having knowledge of this, you wouldn't want to just walk up to him and bash his face in. Then call the cops.

mIKE

[firerescuefin]

http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=8199905

[rab]

A picture is worth a thousand words. All these people with knowledge and not a peep.

It is a shame that local law enforcement did not do any investigation following the knowledge of existing victims.

Actually, that is one of the terrible aspects of this - there WAS knowledge of this back in 1998, law enforcement investigated and it went to the DA. Unfortunately, they didn't have enough to make a case of so the DA, Gricar, really had his hans tied and couldn't pursue it further.

So much could have been avoided if they only could have cornered him back then, tall of the subsequent victims may have been spared their fates.
In hindsight it was stated that had the law enforcement investigating at the time basically known what they were doing (that may be harsh but in essence is how it sounded to me) they could have worked some different angles and perhaps flushed the monster out then.

[rab]

I never mentioned football, big ten titles, or academic reputation. By doing so you essentialize the university and town as much as those who blindly defend the institution. Having lived all over PA, I will say that it is quite different than most places. Going to school in Pennsylvania doesn't mean you've had the pleasure of riding the John Wert Trail to Bear Meadows or over Pine Grove Mills to Alexandria.

EXACTLY! Many people reminisce about their college experiences fondly, which is fine. My greatest memories are centered around experiences with places like Bear Meadows and the Rothrock State Forest.

State College/PSU is a microcosm, there are all sorts of different people there. Plenty can't stand the university, football program etc. You can't lump everyone together just by affiliation with a university, which seems to be a common theme. Most of the PSU alum I know have a very open mind about this whole situation, have shown the ability to adapt and change their opinions as information is available. Not a whole lot of blind defense of those who allowed these crimes to continue from what I have seen. Of course there are always a rabid few, unfortunately those seem to be the ones the media jumps on. Have to make the news as exciting and controversial as possible I guess.
Don't buy into that mindset.

[rugbysecondrow]

Interesting how the conversation has shifted to how we are supposed to feel about the college (s) we attended.

Some people have universities they attended, others have alma maters. I grew up in central Illinois where the University of Illinois was popular, great academics, one of the most beautiful campuses, and Big Ten sports. I don't think the fervor was the same as with PSU, but still pretty strong. People are proud of going there, proud of their kids going there. For many, the experience is woven into the fabric of ones life and and is a source of pride and enjoyment they carry with them later in life. For many, they consider themselves alumni rather than just graduates. As alumni, they buy tickets, donate to the university, they help with scholarships or fundraising, they take their kids to campus and show them where Dad first saw their Mother. In the grand scheme of things, I would rather have an alma mater than a "university I graduated from", I would rather be an alumni than a graduate.

I am glad alumni love and support PSU their respective alma maters and if football, basketball etc is part of that, the so be it. I got my masters degree from University of Louisville. I am sure my UNC or Duke brethren can concur but PSU has nothing on college basketball in Kentucky (UofL vs UK) or NC (UNC vs Duke), it is very fun to be part of. College sports is great and loving them is great. Enjoying that has nothing to do with corruption and criminal violence.

[PQJ]

Actually, that is one of the terrible aspects of this - there WAS knowledge of this back in 1998, law enforcement investigated and it went to the DA. Unfortunately, they didn't have enough to make a case of so the DA, Gricar, really had his hans tied and couldn't pursue it further.

So much could have been avoided if they only could have cornered him back then, tall of the subsequent victims may have been spared their fates.
In hindsight it was stated that had the law enforcement investigating at the time basically known what they were doing (that may be harsh but in essence is how it sounded to me) they could have worked some different angles and perhaps flushed the monster out then.

I recall hearing somewhere that the police told Sandusky something along the lines of "don't shower with boys any more, k?". Don't know if it's true or not, though I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it were.

[bcm119]

I recall hearing somewhere that the police told Sandusky something along the lines of "don't shower with boys any more, k?". Don't know if it's true or not, though I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if it were.

I wouldn't either. Same principle as "powerful people caught with drugs go to rehab, poor people caught with drugs go to jail." Different treatment for different classes, and its getting worse.

[93legendti]

Here's some great news:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/post/graham-spaniers-gig-as-a-federal-worker-is-a-mystery/2012/07/26/gJQAbAx5BX_blog.html?wprss=rss_homepage


Former Penn State University president Graham Spanier, public servant? (Carolyn Kaster - AP) Graham Spanier might have been ousted from his post at the helm of Penn State over the sex-abuse scandal that engulfed the university, but it seems he’s found a backup employer: the American taxpayer.

Only a disgraced public figure would consider joining the much-maligned ranks of the federal workforce as a step up, reputation-wise. We can assume there were no openings for a used-car salesman.

Spanier was faulted in an internal Penn State report after the conviction on child-molestation charges of former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky. The report said he, head coach Joe Paterno and others helped cover up Sandusky’s abuse.

His lawyer confirms to the Loop that Spanier is working on a part-time consulting basis for a “top-secret” agency on national security issues. But the gig is so hush-hush, he couldn’t even tell his attorneys the name of the agency. In April — months after his ouster as president but before the release of the internal report — he told the Patriot-News of central Pennsylvania that he was working on a “special project for the U.S. government relating [to] national security.”

[tannhauser]

Here's some great news:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/post/graham-spaniers-gig-as-a-federal-worker-is-a-mystery/2012/07/26/gJQAbAx5BX_blog.html?wprss=rss_homepage


Former Penn State University president Graham Spanier, public servant? (Carolyn Kaster - AP) Graham Spanier might have been ousted from his post at the helm of Penn State over the sex-abuse scandal that engulfed the university, but it seems he’s found a backup employer: the American taxpayer.

Only a disgraced public figure would consider joining the much-maligned ranks of the federal workforce as a step up, reputation-wise. We can assume there were no openings for a used-car salesman.

Spanier was faulted in an internal Penn State report after the conviction on child-molestation charges of former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky. The report said he, head coach Joe Paterno and others helped cover up Sandusky’s abuse.

His lawyer confirms to the Loop that Spanier is working on a part-time consulting basis for a “top-secret” agency on national security issues. But the gig is so hush-hush, he couldn’t even tell his attorneys the name of the agency. In April — months after his ouster as president but before the release of the internal report — he told the Patriot-News of central Pennsylvania that he was working on a “special project for the U.S. government relating [to] national security.”

Sheesh. A lot of our parents would be ashamed for what we have become.

[Fixed]

Sheesh. A lot of our parents would be ashamed for what we have become.
Momento mori ,rolling over in the grave

[mjb266]

You know...A smart guy once said, "Let he who is perfect..."

Before responding to thread, go consider how you have been less than perfect in your lifetime. Spanier and Paternato...they made mistakes. Some would say they sinned. Don't judge. Forgive and look for ways to learn from the mistakes from others.

[tannhauser]

You know...A smart guy once said, "Let he who is perfect..."

Before responding to thread, go consider how you have been less than perfect in your lifetime. Spanier and Paternato...they made mistakes. Some would say they sinned. Don't judge. Forgive and look for ways to learn from the mistakes from others.

Forgive a guy who allowed a serial rapist do his thing under his auspices?

I'm not a Catholic priest, so I say to that:

NO!

[Aaron O]

You know...A smart guy once said, "Let he who is perfect..."

Before responding to thread, go consider how you have been less than perfect in your lifetime. Spanier and Paternato...they made mistakes. Some would say they sinned. Don't judge. Forgive and look for ways to learn from the mistakes from others.

This is one of the most unbelievably silly, ridiculous, absurd comments I've ever seen - and those adjectives were polite. If you don't see the difference between shielding a child molester and contributing to the rape of little boys and the little mistakes most of us make, I really question your judgement. This isn't a little minor mistake on the way through life. This wasn't a moral lapse. This was gross, unbelievably offensive, evil that ultimately will define the entire lives of these men. Committing adultery doesn't define you as a person...but shielding yourself and organization to the detriment of defenseless children?

I've made mistakes - but no, I've never raped a child or contributed to the rape of a child and I absolutely have the moral authority to judge those who have.

[e-RICHIE]

This isn't a little minor mistake on the way through life.
Agreed atmo. Secrets were kept and men were protected so that reputations wouldn't get tarnished and so football could continue. In my mind, anything short of pistol whipping these adults in charge as well as punishing the institutional cover up(s) that existed by taking away all of its ability to even play the sport isn't enough. Force the university to focus on the other six days of the week and have a long time out every Saturday.

ps

arrange disorder

;);):cool:
:cool::rolleyes:;)
;):rolleyes::cool:

[firerescuefin]

You know...A smart guy once said, "Let he who is perfect..."

Before responding to thread, go consider how you have been less than perfect in your lifetime. Spanier and Paternato...they made mistakes. Some would say they sinned. Don't judge. Forgive and look for ways to learn from the mistakes from others.

Some would say:rolleyes:....what exactly did you learn in your four years there. This wasn't meal card fraud.

[djg]

You know...A smart guy once said, "Let he who is perfect..."

Before responding to thread, go consider how you have been less than perfect in your lifetime. Spanier and Paternato...they made mistakes. Some would say they sinned. Don't judge. Forgive and look for ways to learn from the mistakes from others.

Gosh I never thought about it that way. I'm just so astonishingly shallow and self-absorbed that I never gave a moment's thought to my own "failures" or "mistakes" -- whatever those might be -- but hey, now that you mention it, maybe that's a worthwhile exercise.

Seriously? So what's the line you're pushing here? We ought not to criticize molestation or rape (or, hey, let's get the ball rolling, and include murder, mass murder, etc.) or the people who commit such crimes because we, ourselves, are imperfect? Do we get to have a criminal justice system or is that too unforgiving? Are we allowed to discuss the "mistakes" of others or does the prohibition against gossip mean that we can only "learn from" them in silence?

Some smart folks who've thought about forgiveness have opined about atonement and not just free passes. Exploring what that might mean, and to whom, could be interesting for some, but I'm not going there.

[Aaron O]

I think it also bares mentioning that Joe Paterno certainly felt no restrictions on his moral ability to judge others. He has made public statements condemning what he considered the moral failings of others - from homosexuality, to abortion to defending the catholic church.

Think about that for a second - a man who had an opinion about gay marriage helped shield a child rapist to protect his football program. It continually amazes me how quickly people forgive or excuse their own while condemning and judging others.

[mjb266]

He (Spanier) ****ed up plain and simple. I'm not forgiving him and in my opinion he got what he deserved.
He was fired and his reputation is in ruins.
I'm fine with critiquing his actions while in office as well as those of an organization that allowed such disgusting things to occur.

That being said, I don't know that I'm okay with the criticisms of him "working for the American Taxpayer" as the quote from the article laid out. What's to learn from that? What's the benefit?

[mjb266]

It continually amazes me how quickly people forgive or excuse their own while condemning and judging others.

I find it ironic that such a statement is being used to condemn others...my earlier comment was intended to point out that we are focusing on condemning Paternato or Spanier instead of looking at how our actions or lack-thereof might be harming others.

[Aaron O]

I find it ironic that such a statement is being used to condemn others...my earlier comment was intended to point out that we are focusing on condemning Paternato or Spanier instead of looking at how our actions or lack-thereof might be harming others.

Your earlier comment was an inane defense of two disgusting people and a comparison between moral lapses and self interested evil. The truth is that Paterno is a hypocrite and a disgusting, vulgar human being who attacked others while deep in the mire.

No - Paterno and Spanier's failings as human beings does not make me feel reflective over my own failings - because I'm not capable of defending or shielding a child rapist, nor do I attack others while engaging in the vilest of behaviors. You see these men as fallen and failed people who made mistakes...you apparently don't get it. Not returning your neighbor's lawn mower is a mistake. Helping to shield a child rapist for 14 years is an evil worthy of the deepest pits of Dante's inferno.

These men had privilege and power...neither they nor their families would have been homeless had they behaved in a way consistent with decent human behavior. They weren't following orders. They gave the orders...and they did it for the shallowest of reasons.

[mjb266]

Your earlier comment was an inane defense of two disgusting people and a comparison between moral lapses and self interested evil.
There was no defense in my earlier comment.
The truth is that Paterno is a hypocrite and a disgusting, vulgar human being who attacked others while deep in the mire.

I would argue that to some degree we all are guilty of this. It's easy to stand on the moral high ground and bash those who got caught, but I'm part of a lot of systems that screw people over on a regular basis. Traditional education subjects children to bullying and I've had two students commit suicide during my tenure. I didn't bully those students and I tried to stop those who did but maybe I didn't go far enough in their defense. I should have done more, and with those children I consider myself a failure.

You see these men as fallen and failed people who made mistakes...you apparently don't get it.
I do see them that way...and I do think I "get it". You can propose putting a bullet in their head because of some moral high ground you stand on. I have a different set of beliefs.

[Aaron O]

There was no defense in my earlier comment.

I would argue that to some degree we all are guilty of this. It's easy to stand on the moral high ground and bash those who got caught, but I'm part of a lot of systems that screw people over on a regular basis. Traditional education subjects children to bullying and I've had two students commit suicide during my tenure. I didn't bully those students and I tried to stop those who did but maybe I didn't go far enough in their defense. I should have done more, and with those children I consider myself a failure.


I do see them that way...and I do think I "get it". You can propose putting a bullet in their head because of some moral high ground you stand on. I have a different set of beliefs.

I also understand the intrinsic dangers of organizations and hierarchies and commented on it at length earlier. I do agree with your point here, but not as applied to leaders in those hierarchies and not for those that judge others from a position of moral high ground. I can't imagine how you must feel, but I'd also wager you didn't ignore it in the same way that these people did and bullying in high school isn't remotely equatable to child rape, even if it did lead to suicide.

I was bullied in elementary school and junior high (not so much high school) and I certainly don't blame my teachers, or even the other kids. We are tribal as humans and children lack overriding empathy. Bullying happens...and suicide is more likely a result of mental illness and depression. I don't think children bullying children is a comparable act with child rape. While I consider your position here noble, and understand it's easier for me to say from the outside, your actions and inaction regarding bullying aren't the same. Think for a moment what you would have done had you learned a colleague was raping one of your students.

[paulh]

What the hell is a Paternato?

[CDM]

I am becomining more questioning of whether this is something the NCAA should stay out of.

Haven't read the Freeh report, but from the reports read so far, this is a criminal affair, and no specific NCAA violations occurred. And to that I say let the law punish those who should be punished, civil and criminal. (as has and will continue to happen)

The argument for "lack of institutional control" is nebulous and lacks specific definition, and if applied in this situation would seem to create a bit of a slippery slope. If no specific NCAA violations occurred including the LOIC, then where would they draw the line for any other criminal issues in future cases? Or even non-criminal issues, anything the NCAA could arbitrarily decide shows lack of control in any area of a school involved with the NCAA.
With even NCAA legal experts saying that this doesn't meet the requirements (whatever they actually are) for LOIC, it seems like the NCAA is trying to assert more of a Roger Godell/NFL control, which is a concern as they have not necessarily been very consistent in the past. And in this situation have moved extremely quickly considering the timeline for release of information and pending legal actions.

The idea I saw and thought was pretty good was to truly have PSU become an example as mentioned in this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--fbc-college-football-needs-to-be-reined-in.html

Guess we will find out shortly, saw the NCAA is letting loose tomorrow morning. This could be a major turning point for many different groups.

He said "No specific NCAA violation occurred" You must be a LAWYER!

[tannhauser]

I find it ironic that such a statement is being used to condemn others...my earlier comment was intended to point out that we are focusing on condemning Paternato or Spanier instead of looking at how our actions or lack-thereof might be harming others.

If that's what you intended by your earlier comment, you wrote it just the opposite of what you intended.

And you did say "forgive" -- there's no talking your way out of that one.

[mjb266]

Meh, deep into a bottle of red when I wrote yesterday. The sentiments was there but the execution was lacking.

[wc1934]

Have we not beat this to death - I vote to close this thread as both sides feel strongly in their opinion and will never sway the other.

[rugbysecondrow]

Have we not beat this to death - I vote to close this thread as both sides feel strongly in their opinion and will never sway the other.

If you don't want to participate, then don't. If you don't want to read, then don't. Why would you recommend closing a conversation you are not participating in? I have never understood posts like these.

[krhea]

if you don't want to participate, then don't. If you don't want to read, then don't. Why would you recommend closing a conversation you are not participating in? I have never understood posts like these.


+1

[tannhauser]

Have we not beat this to death - I vote to close this thread as both sides feel strongly in their opinion and will never sway the other.

There is no morally defensible "other side". We're just talking and yes, some people have definitely changed their thinking since this thread started. No harm in talking it out.

[wc1934]

If you don't want to participate, then don't. If you don't want to read, then don't. Why would you recommend closing a conversation you are not participating in? I have never understood posts like these.

I have participated in this thread - seems like there are a number of things you do not understand!

[rugbysecondrow]

I have participated in this thread - seems like there are a number of things you do not understand!

Insults...classy. :)

Sorry, your contribution must have gone unnoticed.

It seems you no longer want to participate, then don't. This is such an easy concept even I understand it. :rolleyes: