9-Speed didn't go far enough?

[carlucci1106]

Okay, so I'm sure this topic has been covered copiously, but I just "upgraded" to 9-speed DA from 8 speed Campy.

I find that the gear range is sufficient, and it shifts well. Now it's been a while since I've been in the game as a mechanic, but isn't the 9 enough?

I can't imagine the tolerances being so tight on 10, that 11 couldn't be anything but nervewrangling to keep properly adjusted. And then the wheel dish issue...

I think these component manufacturers are just trying to sell parts, not improve the riding experience anymore.

Does anyone have a solid argument for why 11 Speed is the cat's pajamas over 10 or 9.... or 8?

I know I'm far behind the curve when it comes to adopting new tech. but I think this has to stop somewhere eventually.

[palincss]

9 is enough for me.

[AngryScientist]

you're right, it's pretty much all marketing driven, and yes - it's been well hashed out before.

what do you expect though? advances come from innovation, and that's what sells. surely you do not expect campy and shimano to just accept that 9 or 8 speed components are "good enough" and stop engineering new products; just keep making 9 speed parts forever?? that's not the way a company works, and frankly - we would be living in the stone age if everyone operated that way.

regarding 10 and 11 speed : i have thousands of miles on a few different groups, and once dialed in - i never have to touch them, except for changing chains and cables at regular intervals.

[carlucci1106]

I think this belt drive technology seems cool and innovative. I read somewhere that they predict in 10 years all drivetrains will utilize this. Then everything can be inside the hub. I see that the Spot brand has used them on a few bikes. Anyone tried them?

[christian]

10 is better than 9 because you get a "16" on a 12-25 cassette. Makes for much nicer spacing than a 15-17 shift. 11 is better than 10 because you get an "18" on a 12-25 cassette. The 17-19 shift doesn't bother me enough to want to upgrade, but clearly it's an advantage if you like close shifts.

This is not to say anything about reliability etc. though I've found my 10 speed Campagnolo parts to be extremely reliable and low-maintenance.

Wheel dish is the same for Campagnolo 9-10-11 speed systems.

[maxdog]

Both Nick and Christian make good points. I mostly stopped with 10, but had to give the Sachs 11, just because...

[christian]

I think this belt drive technology seems cool and innovative. I read somewhere that they predict in 10 years all drivetrains will utilize this. Then everything can be inside the hub. I see that the Spot brand has used them on a few bikes. Anyone tried them?
The only "they" who predict that all bikes will use belts and hub gears are sellers of bikes with belts and manufacturers of hub gears. It's like predicting all bikes will have chaincases and fenders. I think they're fine for "clean-pants" bikes, and maybe single-speed MTBs. Other than that, I'm far from sold.

I'm pretty sure my Colnago C80 will use a chain and derailleurs.

[victoryfactory]

I had DA 9 on my two bikes for years.
I upgraded to DA 10 on my main bike when the da 9 was getting old.
I was not expecting any real difference relating to 9 vs 10 gearing.

What I found was a major difference. When I rode the 9spd after riding the main bike
for a few weeks, I was amazed at how different the gearing felt. It was like I couldn't
fine enough gears, or like there were big gaps in the ratios.

Switching back to the other bike with 10spd confirmed this.

I feel there is a big difference. I wonder if anyone has had this kind of experience
switching from 10spd to 11spd?

VF

[carlucci1106]

A great point about hype. But the advantages are endless.
-never have to lube belt
-no derailleurs to get damaged (MTBs this would be a major strength)
-dirt does not affect performance
-lightweight
-quiet

Jus' sayin

[victoryfactory]

A great point about hype. But the advantages are endless.
-never have to lube belt
-no derailleurs to get damaged (MTBs this would be a major strength)
-dirt does not affect performance
-lightweight
-quiet

Jus' sayin


Checked out some belt drive stuff at the bike show in Sacramento this year.
I like the idea especially for a commuter/ town bike.
Seems like the shifting hubs are coming along.
The only thing that seems unripe is the getting the belt on situation.
If someone has a belt with a connector, that would eliminate the need for
a special frame with a belt opening and allow a lot more people to go
in this direction with existing frames. no?

VF

[zandrrr]

A great point about hype. But the advantages are endless.
-never have to lube belt
-no derailleurs to get damaged (MTBs this would be a major strength)
-dirt does not affect performance
-lightweight
-quiet

Jus' sayin

And downsides:

- single speed only unless you use IGH
- alignment and tension are critical
- not repairable on the road/trail
- ratios are limited because of limited belt lengths
- can squeak like crazy if not set up properly
- ratcheting problems (skipping teeth)
- for the time being, much more expensive than chain drive

[saab2000]

Internal hubs will evolve and become relevant to some but there is still too much drag mechanically, preventing it from reaching the top shelf stuff.

I do think the Alfine 11 Di2 stuff is something to watch closely and is likely a far better application for electric shifting than a traditional chain/cogset setup. But I don't see it becoming relevant on higher end race bikes for a long time, if ever.

As to more gear options? More is better. I have an 8-speed bike and a bunch of 10-speed bikes. The 10-speed ones are more desirable to ride in hilly terrain. Period. I would imagine 11-speed is that much nicer. Never far from an ideal gear.

[carlucci1106]

If a guy can make a working drivetrain out of cardboard, innovators should be able to cut down the drag on the belt drive. The reason I'm playing devil's advocate is because people have made a blanketing statement about innovation. And that is, if there's improvement to be made, we will make it.
You know we all thought disc brakes wouldn't be on ALL bikes because we thought it would be too heavy for racing. I think the same concept applies here to the belt drive. All of these kinks will be ironed out within a decade IMHO.

[oldpotatoe]

Okay, so I'm sure this topic has been covered copiously, but I just "upgraded" to 9-speed DA from 8 speed Campy.

I find that the gear range is sufficient, and it shifts well. Now it's been a while since I've been in the game as a mechanic, but isn't the 9 enough?

I can't imagine the tolerances being so tight on 10, that 11 couldn't be anything but nervewrangling to keep properly adjusted. And then the wheel dish issue...

I think these component manufacturers are just trying to sell parts, not improve the riding experience anymore.

Does anyone have a solid argument for why 11 Speed is the cat's pajamas over 10 or 9.... or 8?

I know I'm far behind the curve when it comes to adopting new tech. but I think this has to stop somewhere eventually.

What's 'enough' is subjective.

9, 10 and now 11s isn't any more finicky than 8s.

The hubs for 8s thru 11s didn't change, the RH flange stayed the same(some small changes for shimano 11s but not a big deal).

I don't think there has been any real improvements in cycling gear, those things that make riding 'better' in over 20 years. Clipless pedals, lever mounted shifting....not much else.

If ya don't see the point of more cogs in back, then use what ya got. There will be 9s(and 8s) 'stuff' out there for a long time.

BTW-I use a 7s freewheel and friction shifters...works fine for me.

[dancinkozmo]

I had DA 9 on my two bikes for years.
I upgraded to DA 10 on my main bike when the da 9 was getting old.
I was not expecting any real difference relating to 9 vs 10 gearing.

What I found was a major difference. When I rode the 9spd after riding the main bike
for a few weeks, I was amazed at how different the gearing felt. It was like I couldn't
fine enough gears, or like there were big gaps in the ratios.

Switching back to the other bike with 10spd confirmed this.

I feel there is a big difference. I wonder if anyone has had this kind of experience
switching from 10spd to 11spd?

VF

Isnt DA 9. Like 15 yrs old now ?
Ill bet if shimano spent that time improving the design , materials and manufacture of 9 speed stuff instead of just addind more gears the new stuff would feel better as well....
Ill bet a 1975 simplex shifts better than a 1960 even though the cog count is the same ....

[oldpotatoe]

Isnt DA 9. Like 15 yrs old now ?
Ill bet if shimano spent that time improving the design , materials and manufacture of 9 speed stuff instead of just addind more gears the new stuff would feel better as well....
Ill bet a 1975 simplex shifts better than a 1960 even though the cog count is the same ....

shimano went to 10s in 2005.

[Chance]

If a guy can make a working drivetrain out of cardboard, innovators should be able to cut down the drag on the belt drive. The reason I'm playing devil's advocate is because people have made a blanketing statement about innovation. And that is, if there's improvement to be made, we will make it.
You know we all thought disc brakes wouldn't be on ALL bikes because we thought it would be too heavy for racing. I think the same concept applies here to the belt drive. All of these kinks will be ironed out within a decade IMHO.

The design disadvantage is not in the belt drive itself but in the hub-mounted (or enclosed) gear box. Belts are great and should work on single-speed just fine as they do on some motorcycles. Hub gearing on the other hand has been around for decades. The better part of a century. It's nothing new. Efficiency and weight are still lagging compared to chain derailleur systems. They have improved and will undoubtedly continue to improve, but other systems will improve during that time frame also. The relative disadvantage for competitive cycling is still there. And will probably remain for a long time.

[FlashUNC]

The added cogs just cut down on the gaps in the gearing. Important to some people, less so to others.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. Personally, I think the 9-speed Shimano Dura Ace/Ultegra stuff is one of the best periods for parts ever.

Whatever floats your boat.

[Chance]

10 is better than 9 because you get a "16" on a 12-25 cassette. Makes for much nicer spacing than a 15-17 shift. 11 is better than 10 because you get an "18" on a 12-25 cassette. The 17-19 shift doesn't bother me enough to want to upgrade, but clearly it's an advantage if you like close shifts.



We could also accomplish nearly the same (or better in some cases) by using an extra ring than adding more cogs. Obviously granny-ring shifting isn't normally as crisp but overall gearing can be just as good or better. 3X9 for instance can offer tighter choices than 2X10 using the same spread.

[Honey]

it's all relative. like riding nice bikes, you don't what you're missing till you've tried it. i tend to find it easier to see the differences when moving back to the old more than when i first try the new (in the event that there is a difference), but that's just personal opinion. Like the first time I road a 953 SSR (swweeet bike btw, as if you didnt know) while it felt stiffer and snappier I felt the difference much more going back to a platinum ox bike. i thought it was a pretty good test because I road one bike to the other and then back so it was all right in a row.

[merckx]

shimano went to 10s in 2005.

I believe it was 2003.

[Grant McLean]

more gears = less wear on each cog


-g

[oldpotatoe]

I believe it was 2003.

2004? Anyway, not 15 years ago.

[gdw]

"more gears = less wear on each cog"

more gears = shorter drivetrain life especially chains

[93legendti]

We could also accomplish nearly the same (or better in some cases) by using an extra ring than adding more cogs. Obviously granny-ring shifting isn't normally as crisp but overall gearing can be just as good or better. 3X9 for instance can offer tighter choices than 2X10 using the same spread.

But a triple increases Q factor. I can't stand triples, they throw my right leg further out and irritate my IT band. Not the same as adding a 10th gear.

[Ralph]

I liked 8 speed cassettes a little better than 7. Liked 9 speed cassette range a lot better than 8. Liked 10 speed range even better than 9. For my strength level and where/how I ride, 12 tooth on end of cassette is useless for me. So doubt if I go 11's with 12 something cassette. Unless it's with 46 or 48 tooth large chainring.

Have been thinking about Athena 11's with Cross 36-46 rings and 12-29.

[Ti Designs]

what do you expect though? advances come from innovation, and that's what sells. surely you do not expect campy and shimano to just accept that 9 or 8 speed components are "good enough" and stop engineering new products; just keep making 9 speed parts forever?? that's not the way a company works, and frankly - we would be living in the stone age if everyone operated that way.

In any given universe there is a question of limits of expansion. Laws of physics and economics limit the step size of the innovations until it's impossible to tell what's gained. In terms of number of gears, I think we're there, or perhaps a step or two past there. With more gears comes thinner chains and cogs and faster wearing parts, along with higher prices. The step from 9-speed to 10-speed was huge in terms of durability. Shimano chain pins went from 6.5mm to 5.6mm which translates to an almost 40% tumble in service life of a chain to go along with the 80% increase in price. Is that progress?

I work in the bike industry, I sell the stuff, I see what the trends are, I don't get it. I still ride Shimano 9-speed, I'll change that when I find something that's better. I've tried Di2 and EPS, I don't see a single real advantage. I do see a huge disadvantage, the price of equipment is keeping the sport smaller than it sould be. The one component group I'm excited about this season is 10-speed Tiagra - that's right, Tiagra. It's really rebadged old Ultegra, but it works, it's durable, and it's cheap. For $1800 you can get a carbon frame with Tiagra which is 99.9% of the performance of anything costing three times as much, and there are no batteries to charge.

The industry fails to understand that growth doesn't mean ultra expensive bikes that less than 1% can afford, it means growing the sport. How much innovation has the basketball seen in the last 20 years? They haven't added more gears, electronics, GPS... The sport is huge 'cause anyone with a ball, a hoop and some pavement can play. I can't turn on the TV in March without seeing basketball. By comparison, I can't turn on the TV and watch cycling in July (partly 'cause I don't pay for TV, partly 'cause I just can't bring myself to watch cycling). Cycling is turning into an exclusive club for those who can afford the buy-in price.

Then there's the final down side to having all the latest equipment - the first impression isn't a good one. If everybody else at the start of a group ride has a modest bike and you show up on an electronic carbon thing, the question in most minds is "poser???".

[Ralph]

But a triple increases Q factor. I can't stand triples, they throw my right leg further out and irritate my IT band. Not the same as adding a 10th gear.

My triples increase Q evenly on both sides. So the slightly increased Q is distributed evenly on both sides. I hardly notice the difference between a Centaur double and a Record triple.

[zap]

I'm slow but like to go fast and typically ride in hillier terrain.

More gears (11-25 range, 11-27 in the mountains) is better if you are on the rivet.

[Ken Robb]

My triples increase Q evenly on both sides. So the slightly increased Q is distributed evenly on both sides. I hardly notice the difference between a Centaur double and a Record triple.

I'd guess that some riders prefer a wider Q depending on their body shape/size.

[maxdog]

more gears = less wear on each cog


-g

Not necessarily, for obvious reasons. Generally though, some very good points from Ti Designs, Chance, and Honey, just to mention a few, which come from the various angles of this debate. Loving this, but couldn't we add some commentary about Lance, or doping in general.

[Ken Robb]

I have my last 10 speed gruppo in my parts bin at the moment but I have owned/ridden 10 speed Chorus and DA. At the moment I have 4 7-speed bikes and 3 9 speed bikes.

When riding alone there is never a lack of a gear for every occasion. When I used to do fast group rides I remember shifting quite often to match the speed of the paceline with my preferred cadence.

So, from my perspective, 7x3 is plenty for any riding I do these days but I can understand how racers or riders in big fast packs might want 9,10, or 11 speed groups.

An interesting thought: if a rider is on a really tight budget would he be better off more often riding longer-lasting, less-expensive 7-8-9 speed stuff that he can afford to keep like-new rather than stretching (pun intended) the life of chains and cogs to where their efficiency is compromised?

[Bob Loblaw]

Companies only make what sells. If no one buys a thing, it stops existing. There is certainly a component of salesmanship and marketeering that shapes the marketplace mentality about what's available and what they already have, but bottom line, for better or worse, a lot of people are buying this stuff.

IMO, the evolution shiftgear has gotten to a point where improvements are pretty much imaginary. That old, obsolete, inferior 8/9/10 speed stuff works pretty much as well as 11 speed or Di2 or EPS. The last real, functional improvement in shifting tech was the advent of brifters which are demonstrably better than DT or bar end shifters in most applications. (DT shifters didn't get worse when brifters came out, and they still work as well as they did when we old guys were racing on them in the 80's. Brifters are just better).

People are just suckers for what's new, be it music, technology, fashion, training techniques, cars, books, movies, slang, whatever. The question of whether what's new is actually better is often secondary to the newness itself. Human nature, I suppose.

BL

[cnighbor1]

9 is enough for me if runing a triple

11 makes sense if you need to be in optimun gear at times
i.e. tour de france
even 5 is enough for me with a triple
Charles

[cnighbor1]

In tour de France did you notice the large number of jammed chains, missed shifts, deraileuurs being ripped of, etc That is in a large part 11 cogs in back and in tighter clearances and need for better quality in components which are pushing limits of what can be done

[zandrrr]

In tour de France did you notice the large number of jammed chains, missed shifts, deraileuurs being ripped of, etc That is in a large part 11 cogs in back and in tighter clearances and need for better quality in components which are pushing limits of what can be done

So 7,8,9-speed systems never missed shifts, jammed chains, or ripped derailleurs off? That's only a 10- and 11-speed phenomenon? I would bet there is not a higher rate of mechanical problems in the Tour these days than there were in those days.

I understand sticking with what works, but the sky-is-falling-because-of-10-speed attitude seems hyperbolic. Have you guys tried this new stuff? I won't claim it's better (as if that's an objective measure), but it's certainly not less reliable. It's anecdotal, but I've never had an issue with 105 (5600), Rival or Force in the years I've been running it. Never had an issue with 2x10 on my MTB, either.

I've no desire to move to 11-speed because I'm very happy with my 10-speed systems, but I don't begrudge the companies for making it.

[Chance]

I've no desire to move to 11-speed because I'm very happy with my 10-speed systems, but I don't begrudge the companies for making it.

Same here. It's their business after all to do as they please.

What can sometimes bother some of us is when older groups are made obsolete by design (which may seem on purpose) so that when a part wears out on your old 9-speed you are forced to buy used or upgrade to the latest entire group. It can appear as a conflict of interest like they are working against us. Doesn't always happen, but when it does it can be hard to accept if we still like what we have/had.

[Kontact]

Okay, so I'm sure this topic has been covered copiously, but I just "upgraded" to 9-speed DA from 8 speed Campy.

I find that the gear range is sufficient, and it shifts well. Now it's been a while since I've been in the game as a mechanic, but isn't the 9 enough?

I can't imagine the tolerances being so tight on 10, that 11 couldn't be anything but nervewrangling to keep properly adjusted. And then the wheel dish issue...

I think these component manufacturers are just trying to sell parts, not improve the riding experience anymore.

Does anyone have a solid argument for why 11 Speed is the cat's pajamas over 10 or 9.... or 8?

I know I'm far behind the curve when it comes to adopting new tech. but I think this has to stop somewhere eventually.
There is no additional wheel dish - 11 uses the same dish as Campy 8 did.

Campy 11 is closer in spacing to Shimano 10 than anything else.

No shift system "goes out of tune" all on its own.

So if there was no enormous sacrifice going to 11, why not have more gear choices?

[gdw]

"Never had an issue with 2x10 on my MTB, either. "

How many miles do you get out of a chain? One of the guys who raced the Tour Divide last year with a 3x10 drivetrain went through 4 chains in 2600 miles. Several other serious cross country riders I know report the same wear issues. 650 miles per chain, one month of use, isn't acceptable even if it shifts well.

[Chance]

There is no additional wheel dish - 11 uses the same dish as Campy 8 did.

Campy 11 is closer in spacing to Shimano 10 than anything else.

No shift system "goes out of tune" all on its own.

So if there was no enormous sacrifice going to 11, why not have more gear choices?

How about cable stretch? Wouldn't it affect 11 more than 9?

Agree it's not a reason not to buy 11 but on the other hand it requires more precision than 9. Or 5 for that matter. Either way it's so minor it's not worth worrying too much about.

[Ti Designs]

Several other serious cross country riders I know report the same wear issues. 650 miles per chain, one month of use, isn't acceptable even if it shifts well.

You're right, 650 miles per month for a serious cross country rider isn't acceptable. I get about 1500 miles out of a chain, which in-season is about a month.

[KidWok]

I'm stopping at 10. 9 was good enough indeed. 10 works fine on singles, but my Ultegra 9 spd tandem shifts infinitely more crisp than my Ultegra 10 spd tandem.

After seeing the details and pricing on 9000, I decided that it would be a better use of $2,700 to pick up a couple of newish 7800 groups.

Tai

[laupsi]

call me pampered but gone are days of 7, 8, 9 and 10 spds. yes I guess the current 11 spd system will go the same way eventually but until I need a 27 the 11 cogs is an ideal set up for me. I love the "straight block" set up of a 12-25 or on less hilly terrain an 11-23.

[zandrrr]

"Never had an issue with 2x10 on my MTB, either. "

How many miles do you get out of a chain? One of the guys who raced the Tour Divide last year with a 3x10 drivetrain went through 4 chains in 2600 miles. Several other serious cross country riders I know report the same wear issues. 650 miles per chain, one month of use, isn't acceptable even if it shifts well.

I can't say yet. My first chain blew apart when I foolishly shifted while stalled out on a climb, instead of dabbing like I should have. (That dumb move would've broken a 1/8" chain, so it can't be blamed on being 10-speed.) I have started keeping track, so I'll know when my current chain is ready for replacing. Of course, I have no idea how long my 9-speed setup on my old bike lasted because I didn't pay any attention. (I'm only keeping track now because Strava does it for me.)

The thing is, I don't care. This bike came with 2x10, and I'm happy to ride it. When things wear out, I will replace them. If an 11-speed MTB system comes out (I guess that's more of a "when," since SRAM is releasing XX1), I won't be upgrading to it. I'm happy with my 2x10. I'm happy with my 9-speed on my cross bike, and my 10-speed on my road bike.

I don't buy the planned obsolescence argument. 8- and 9-speed cassettes and chains are still readily available. If you're happy running that stuff, great! Keep running it. I'm going to run my 10-speed until it disintegrates. Yeah, if your shifter breaks, you may be forced to move to another system. But you know what? If the engine in your 1993 Toyota blows apart, you're going to have to upgrade that too.

Things move forward, and companies can't continue supporting old products forever.

[Ti Designs]

10 works fine on singles, but my Ultegra 9 spd tandem shifts infinitely more crisp than my Ultegra 10 spd tandem.

Tandems are where they bump into the limits of what works and what doesn't. I built my own tandem with 9-speed Dura-Ace, converting three triple cranks into a tandem crankset. The bike has worked perfectly for the last 4 years. I also sell tandems. Road tandems are now 10-speed, many use the new generation of STI levers with the internal cables. Given a few minutes of adjusting I can get one to shift OK, and it'll stay that way for a week...

[KidWok]

Tandems are where they bump into the limits of what works and what doesn't. I built my own tandem with 9-speed Dura-Ace, converting three triple cranks into a tandem crankset. The bike has worked perfectly for the last 4 years. I also sell tandems. Road tandems are now 10-speed, many use the new generation of STI levers with the internal cables. Given a few minutes of adjusting I can get one to shift OK, and it'll stay that way for a week...

I've had the same issues with adusting my Co-Motion with 6703 drivetrain...super finicky. Left it in Portland for a few months and it shifted like crap when I started riding it with my son again.

I don't ever see the need to get electronic shifting for my own bikes, but think that they would be perfect for tandems. Santana is doing Di2 on tandems right now, but you can't do a triple.

Tai

[zap]

Campy 10 shifters on 2 tandems, including one travel tandem.

Install, test, adjust, test, perfect and forget about it until it's time to install new derailleur cables.

Amazing that one can take a tandem apart, pack it, arrive at your destination and put it back together and Campy 10 shifts just as it did on day 1.

Next tandem will be Campy 11. :banana:

[palincss]

I think this belt drive technology seems cool and innovative. I read somewhere that they predict in 10 years all drivetrains will utilize this. Then everything can be inside the hub. I see that the Spot brand has used them on a few bikes. Anyone tried them?

There's nothing new or revolutionary about internal gear hubs. They've been around for a hundred years and more. The best of today's IGH are better than those of a century ago -- more speeds, better efficiency -- but the rest are little if any better; and those best hubs do not have any shifters suitable for drop bars. At best IGH are heavy, expensive, noisy, and do not provide the sort of gearing racers and the racer-oriented like (gears are spaced much too far apart). What's more, they make changing a flat a right royal pain in the a$$. Derailleurs beat them then, and derailleurs beat them now.

So honestly, what's the big excitement? A belt rather than a chain? [yawn]

[palincss]

I don't think there has been any real improvements in cycling gear, those things that make riding 'better' in over 20 years. Clipless pedals, lever mounted shifting....not much else.


Generator hubs and LED lighting are a real, significant improvement.

[palincss]

more gears = less wear on each cog


-g

Not necessarily. Add an 11T sprocket that gets used once a month when the moon is full and it's high tide, what wear saving does that buy you? No matter how many sprockets you have, you tend to ride the same gear for the same terrain, as those extra sprockets do not make you stronger or give you less aerodynamic resistance. What's more, if you've made room for those extra sprockets by making each sprocket thinner, it will wear faster than a thicker version, assuming the metallurgy hasn't changed.

I haven't heard anybody reporting they get longer chain and cassette wear with 11 vs 10 or 10 vs 9; if anything, it's quite the opposite: more sprockets == shorter chain and cassette life (and, of course, dramatically more expensive chains and cassettes and chain tools).

[palincss]

But a triple increases Q factor. I can't stand triples, they throw my right leg further out and irritate my IT band. Not the same as adding a 10th gear.

You know, the Rene Herse crank can be had as a triple, and I'll bet you'll have lower Q with the RH crank set up as a triple than whatever double you are using right now.

[Ti Designs]

Amazing that one can take a tandem apart, pack it, arrive at your destination and put it back together and Campy 10 shifts just as it did on day 1.

If ever you travel to the Boston area with your tandem, Liz and I will show you where the good roads are. I need to see this thing in action, I almost never ride with other tandem couples without something not working right on their bike. I've come to the conclusion that it's one of those things that people just assume about tandems - they don't go up hill well and they don't really work. It had me thinking I was doing something all wrong...

[Kontact]

How about cable stretch? Wouldn't it affect 11 more than 9?

Agree it's not a reason not to buy 11 but on the other hand it requires more precision than 9. Or 5 for that matter. Either way it's so minor it's not worth worrying too much about.

Cables don't continuously stretch. They stretch a tiny bit initially, and housings compress initially. After 100 miles, anything that seems like stretch is a warning sign that something else is wrong.


I really don't understand people's objection to "improvement" in new groups. If you don't want 11 speed Dura Ace, don't buy it. You don't need to replace older parts with new stuff - the old stuff will last an incredibly long time and is repairable. When you upgrade to new stuff, you get upgrades - like more speeds.

[mvrider]

http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/tapeleven.jpg