Rant: Price of cycling apparel

[MattTuck]

I'm looking at picking up some new bibs, as mine are pretty worn out.

Am I the only one that thinks prices of $150+ for bibs is outrageous?

Usually, I'm willing to pay up for quality product; but close to $200 for some lycra? I can't imagine there is that much "R&D" (and I use the quotation marks on purpose) in the cycling apparel industry. I suspect that the manufacturers all buy the fabric and chamois from the same factory in china. I mean, what is the biggest innovation over the last few years? Compression lycra? real innovative....

Maybe it is because I have never found a set of shorts or a bib that I really loved, and I suppose that if I did find one, it might be worth the price.

Anyway, I just don't understand how they are so expensive. Here's what I envision the price break down of a typical $175 bib at retail is:

Materials: $9.50
Labor: $15.00
"R&D": $1.70
Shipping: $0.75
Marketing: $12.00
LBS Margin: $30.00
Profit: $105.00????

[Germany_chris]

This is exactly why I don't buy cycling stuff...

I find the benefit if cycling gear to small for the additional cost.

[znfdl]

My arse loves Assos bibs and when you sit on a bike for 12+ hours at a time, every little bit of comfort is important.

I spend more money on contact points that I do on non contact points: e.g.


shoes
shorts
gloves
saddle


For one to two hour rides, it would probably not matter as much.

[AngryScientist]

I can ride anything for a few hours, but for long hours on the bike, the good stuff matters.

[Steve in SLO]

Agree with your premise, Matt, but the why is because they can.
Folks buy the stuff. A well-designed bib, such as made by Assos is absolutely worth it to znfdl and tens of thousands of others at current price, so why charge less?

[rodcad]

I like nice shorts but have very few jerseys. I just wear sleeveless t-shirts. Price of jerseys just seem ridiculous to me.

[MattTuck]

Agree with your premise, Matt, but the why is because they can.
Folks buy the stuff. A well-designed bib, such as made by Assos is absolutely worth it to znfdl and tens of thousands of others at current price, so why charge less?

I guess my point is, why doesn't a new competitor come in and copy what Assos does right on the product side, at a lower price point. At some point, the competitive forces should drive the industry to offer better product for less money. I do not really see that, I see marginally better product for a lot more money.

Does the extra cost of designing and manufacturing good stuff like Assos really cost as much as the difference between themselves and say, Pearl Izumi... (Assos is also Swiss, if I recall, so I'm sure they are getting absolutely murdered on exchange rates right now)

[ofcounsel]

I guess my point is, why doesn't a new competitor come in and copy what Assos does right on the product side, at a lower price point.

You mean, why doesn't someone blatently rip off the manufacturer that has spent time and money in R&D?

Lots of people do that if you choose to buy from them.... You'll find them selling their wares on Ebay. If you want cheap stuff, you can find it anywhere.

[MattTuck]

My arse loves Assos bibs and when you sit on a bike for 12+ hours at a time, every little bit of comfort is important.

I spend more money on contact points that I do on non contact points: e.g.


shoes
shorts
gloves
saddle


For one to two hour rides, it would probably not matter as much.

I don't disagree - but value does not always equal price. I can understand the amount of money and supply chain logistics, labor, etc. that go into a pair of shoes. You've got lots of materials, lots of different sizes, construction techniques, etc.

Shorts are some lycra and a chamois.

[ofcounsel]

Shorts are some lycra and a chamois.

Yet, some still are consistently good, and some really fit like crap. Could it be the amount of time that goes into thinking the product through? Perhaps?

[Jaq]

Don't forget, too, that as big as cycling is (or seems to be to us), it's not all that big. It's a relatively niche market, so the numbers aren't there for economies of scale the way they are for more mainstream sports.

That said, there does seem to be a bit of mark-up, which makers know a lot of us will pay since we're in a high-end sport, and one in which appearance can mean a lot. I did the Pikes Peak thing this last weekend; I thought of it as a "Fondo with teeth". I wasn't surprised by the number of casual riders on carbon and wearing Rapha.

[RonW87]

I tend to be able to find good deals bor bibs and other cycling kit on the British websites and when Competitive Cyclist, Nashbar etc. have sales. It's easy to find 40% off or better, for Castelli, Giordana, Craft, etc. even Rapha. Sugoi and LG provide good value at prices below the designer brands.

If one focuses only on the "headline" price, they look expensive. But there is rarely a need to buy at full price.

Ron

[MattTuck]

You mean, why doesn't someone blatently rip off the manufacturer that has spent time and money in R&D?

Lots of people do that if you choose to buy from them.... You'll find them selling their wares on Ebay.

"Copy" was a poor choice of words, considering I spent 4 years in the patent industry. I'm not sure if any of the features or manufacturing techniques from assos or any other manufacturer are patented or even patentable, but that is not my point anyway. The legal and or ethical aspects you allude to are peripheral.

My point was that the "R&D" you speak of is being sold to us for $3 when it really cost $1 for Assos, and another manufacturer could invest that same $1 and sell it to us for $1.50. (numbers just to make the point) It is not just Assos, almost all of the manufacturers are now attempting to sell premium level stuff. As an example, http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-apparel/2012-craft-elite-body-control-bib-shorts-11450.16.1.html Craft's new bibs were supposed to retail at 225+, and are now on sale for 157... Are they taking a loss on these now? selling them at cost? seems like $50 of profit to me.

[ofcounsel]

I can't say that it's $1 or $3.... Or any amount, because I have no idea. And frankly, I don't mind if others make a tidy profit if they can. People vote with their Dollars (or Yen or Pounds). Maybe the assumption you have is that you have to spend for Assos to get a good fit. For me, I know that is not the case.

I use the Peal Izumi Elite bibs that I get from REI. They work great for me, and don't break the bank.

[tv_vt]

Matt,

You live in the Upper Valley of VT/NH, right? You need to discover the local good stuff - Louis Garneau. Take a drive up to their outlet in Newport, VT sometime if you want to get some cheaper duds. They're on Rt 105 west of the interstate interchange. It's worth the drive.

Or just cut to the chase and get a pair of LG NeoPower bibs or shorts on sale from BikeTiresDirect or wherever.

TV

[pdmtong]

shop around....easy to find capo and pearl at way less than $175

I'd rather have one nice bib than three cheap ones...for me it does matter in comfort and durability

[ofcounsel]

I used my Peal Izumi Elites for a year, then took them back to REI earlier this week for an exchange when I moved to smaller size (I've lost 40lbs since January :banana:_.

No questions asked returns, for any reason. A good reason to shop for cycling gear REI;)

[MattTuck]

I can't say that it's $1 or $3.... Or any amount, because I have no idea. And frankly, I don't mind if others make a tidy profit if they can. People vote with their Dollars (or Yen or Pounds). Maybe the assumption you have is that you have to spend for Assos to get a good fit. For me, I know that is not the case.

I use the Peal Izumi Elite bibs that I get from REI. They work great for me, and don't break the bank.

I ride a lot of PI stuff too. I think it's a decent value. I guess I just look at stuff in the $100 range (of almost any brand), and am not that impressed. Compare that to a day pack (http://www.rei.com/product/808306/osprey-talon-22-pack) that seems to have some well thought out construction, materials, engineering, etc...

The shorts just don't seem (to me) live up to the price. And maybe it is because of limited economies of scale. I don't know enough about the apparel industry in china to know whether the limited volumes alone are what drives the price at retail. Up at the 150+ level, of course you'd expect everyone to have good quality stuff... I just wish you didn't have to get up to that price point to expect well designed/executed shorts (which as far as I'm concerned are a consumable).

VT, I'll check out Louis G!

[Jaq]

I used my Peal Izumi Elites for a year, then took them back to REI earlier this week for an exchange when I moved to smaller size (I've lost 40lbs since January :banana:_.

Congratulations on losing the weight. Sincerely.

But taking advantage of REI's policy by returning a pair of bibs after a year of wear is flat out dishonest and unethical.

[ofcounsel]

But taking advantage of REI's policy by returning a pair of bibs after a year of wear is flat out dishonest and unethical.

Thanks!

But why is it dishonest? There has been no breach of honesty. No attept to disceive. The policy is very clear. New or used, no matter how long you have them. If you are not happy with it, for any reason, you return it. I was not happy with them becasue they no longer fit. So I returned them. It is not dishonest or unethical, when there is no attempt to deceptive? Well, I guess you can truly debate the ethics... But it's certainly not dishonest.

As an REI member, it's one of the "privildges" of membership. You can choose not to be a member, and still buy things there. But the no questions asked return policy applies only to members.

[Rueda Tropical]

Take a look at the prices of high zoot mens wear. a cotton dress shirt $300+ a sports jacket start at $1500 and go much, much higher. By comparison the much more technical and complex Assos level stuff is practically a bargain. Sewing complicated patterns of expensive fabrics together by hand is expensive.

There are cheap knock offs available and if you get them in a clearance bin they are cheap. Are they as functional? I expect some are and a lot aren't.

[CNY rider]

I've reached a certain point in my cycling career (and I suspect that many others here have too) where I have all the bibs and jerseys I currently need. I know what shape they're in and I can anticipate what's soon to go to the trash, or to be demoted to commuting use.

I also know what brands fit me the best.

This allows me to be a highly selective shopper. I have no acute need for new bibs, but I can anticipate needing 2 new pairs for next season. So I can wait for the good Christmas sales, or the post-holiday closeouts, and stock up on what I need.

How many people here are in such acute need of new cycling bibs that they need to buy something at full retail?

[christian]

By the first formulation of the categorical imperative, returning year-old shorts certainly fails to meet basic ethical standards. As an REI member, I see the negative externalities of your actions in a reduced dividend check, for instance.

[fiamme red]

REI = Return Every Item

[MattTuck]

I've reached a certain point in my cycling career (and I suspect that many others here have too) where I have all the bibs and jerseys I currently need. I know what shape they're in and I can anticipate what's soon to go to the trash, or to be demoted to commuting use.

I also know what brands fit me the best.

This allows me to be a highly selective shopper. I have no acute need for new bibs, but I can anticipate needing 2 new pairs for next season. So I can wait for the good Christmas sales, or the post-holiday closeouts, and stock up on what I need.

How many people here are in such acute need of new cycling bibs that they need to buy something at full retail?

Not to be overly deconstructive, but are you on the side of A.) full retail being over priced, or B.) full retail being fairly priced -- but buying during sales is an even better value?

[Tom]

For the first time in my life I spent >$200 on a pair of bibs this spring for a good pair of Castelli's for the same reason that znfndl does, I plan on riding in them for many hours - not as many as him but many for me.

I'm sold. It's like they disappear underneath me.

[CNY rider]

I think the stuff is over-priced at full retail, and I buy it when I think the prices are closer to fair value.
I'm saying that most of us could probably do the same.

[jr59]

When I sit back and think on it;

The price of most all of biking is out of hand.
15,000 dollar bikes
250 dollar helmets
150 bibs
150 dollar jerseys

! sat down and added it up the other day, and I could buy a LOT of stuff for what I have invested in cycling.

Somewhere the line has to be drawn. Otherwise I'm going to own 100,000 dollars worth of bike stuff. :eek:

[verticaldoug]

Thanks!

But why is it dishonest? There has been no breach of honesty. No attept to disceive. The policy is very clear. New or used, no matter how long you have them. If you are not happy with it, for any reason, you return it. I was not happy with them becasue they no longer fit. So I returned them. It is not dishonest or unethical, when there is no attempt to deceptive? Well, I guess you can truly debate the ethics... But it's certainly not dishonest.

As an REI member, it's one of the "privildges" of membership. You can choose not to be a member, and still buy things there. But the no questions asked return policy applies only to members.

If you think in a purely legal way, common sense goes out the window and the ends justify the means. REI's expectation was probably people would not take advantage of the policy and abuse it, but the policy is written to allow abuse. If you choose to abuse, there is nothing they can do to stop it except change the policy at some point which when enough people abuse it they will... People should read Predator Nation and understand how the screwed you with the fine print economy works.

[firerescuefin]

Thanks!

But why is it dishonest? There has been no breach of honesty. No attept to disceive. The policy is very clear. New or used, no matter how long you have them. If you are not happy with it, for any reason, you return it. I was not happy with them becasue they no longer fit. So I returned them. It is not dishonest or unethical, when there is no attempt to deceptive? Well, I guess you can truly debate the ethics... But it's certainly not dishonest.

As an REI member, it's one of the "privildges" of membership. You can choose not to be a member, and still buy things there. But the no questions asked return policy applies only to members.

Lame...and I am a member...Thankfully, most realize that the intent is not to return items that you wear out over the normal course of time but to return items that are defective or wear prematurely.

On Topic...Great bib shorts and stuff that is POC as ZNFDL mentioned are worth their weight in gold. Gets old..goes in the crappy weather/trainer bin.

[Alchemy Rider]

Cyclists are not the only ones paying top dollar for a bit of high quality lycra and padding.

When you get home look at the prices on the Agent Provocateur site.

As long as price = perceived value we consumers will spend the money.

[ofcounsel]

If you think in a purely legal way, common sense goes out the window and the ends justify the means. REI's expectation was probably people would not take advantage of the policy and abuse it, but the policy is written to allow abuse. If you choose to abuse, there is nothing they can do to stop it except change the policy at some point which when enough people abuse it they will... People should read Predator Nation and understand how the screwed you with the fine print economy works.

If returning 2 items in 12 years of REI membership, and thousands of dollars spent there is abuse... then I guess I'm an abuser ;)

And as I lawyer, yeah, I tend to look at things in a legal way, but without throwing common sense out the window.

[ofcounsel]

Lame...and I am a member...Thankfully, most realize that the intent is not to return items that you wear out over the normal course of time but to return items that are defective or wear prematurely.



Hmm... Unless you were there writing the policy yourself, or you have a statement from the drafter's of the policy, you read into the policy what you will. But I understand your point of view.


And they weren't defective or prematurly worn, or worn out.... Simply previously worn, but no long the right size.

[verticaldoug]

Matt

You will find that retail margins are pretty tight. On a per product basis, the profit margin may appear to be there, but the volumes are not. So when you factor in the fixed costs (rents, salaries, insurance etc etc) it all goes quickly away.
If you want to create your own brand and try to sell quality at a lower cost, the more power to you. But you will find the learning curve is expensive and steep. You maybe think you can easily outsource to china/india/vietnam/romania, but you have to factor in theft, quality control and all sorts of other issues.

By and large, the markets are pretty efficient.

Douglas

[FlashUNC]

There's also a lifetime of the garment to consider.

I have a pair of Rapha shorts that I've owned for three years now that still look new, despite long rides and regular use. Sure, they were expensive, but they seem like they're going to last for years.

I've owned several pairs of $80-$100 bibs that fell apart in a season.

Yeah, the cost up front is more, but if I'm paying double for something that lasts 5 times as long, I think that's a pretty good value play.

[Alchemy Rider]

Yeah, the cost up front is more, but if I'm paying double for something that lasts 5 times as long, I think that's a pretty good value play.

So do I.

[beeatnik]

Take a look at the prices of high zoot mens wear. a cotton dress shirt $300+ a sports jacket start at $1500 and go much, much higher. By comparison the much more technical and complex Assos level stuff is practically a bargain. Sewing complicated patterns of expensive fabrics together by hand is expensive.

There are cheap knock offs available and if you get them in a clearance bin they are cheap. Are they as functional? I expect some are and a lot aren't.

This.

My mom worked in the garment industry for 10 years and whenever she sees me in nice kit she reflexively inspects the seams. She started as a seamstress and is well aware of the hard labor and time that go into a well made garment. When she first saw an Assos jersey, she spent about 5 minutes looking at all the stitching, etc. She was quite impressed. When I mentioned the price, she thought it was a fair value. My mom has never wasted a nickel in her life.

[bluesea]

This.

My mom worked in the garment industry for 10 years and whenever she sees me in nice kit she reflexively inspects the seams. She started as a seamstress and is well aware of the hard labor and time that go into a well made garment. When she first saw an Assos jersey, she spent about 5 minutes looking at all the stitching, etc. She was quite impressed. When I mentioned the price, she thought it was a fair value. My mom has never wasted a nickel in her life.



I've worked as a sailmaker, and I agree with this message.

[xjoex]

Assos still has all of their gear made by hand in Slovenia and Bulgaria by Assos employees in Assos owned facilities.

Check out their headquarters where they make prototypes and custom gear:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/gallery/tech-gallery-%E2%80%93-a-visit-to-assos-headquarters_140795

I like nice shorts and short sleeve jerseys. That said, I no longer buy cycling specific long sleeve jerseys. I am usually wearing a jacket if I need a LS jersey. So I buy patagonia capilene ls shirts so I can use them for other sports as well.

-Joe

[Pbraun]

What I really find outrageous is that we don't have a choice. I mean why should i be forced to buy those $150 shorts? What ever happened to personal freedom? Why can't I just buy the cheaper ones that I am sure are just as good?

[beeatnik]

What I really find outrageous is that we don't have a choice. I mean why should i be forced to buy those $150 shorts? What ever happened to personal freedom? Why can't I just buy the cheaper ones that I am sure are just as good?

You can.

[rugbysecondrow]

I rode a pair of Canari shorts for three years, no issues at all and they cost me about 30-40 bucks maybe. I have upgraded to bib-johns and purchased the Desoto 400 mile bibs for $130...it was a big upgrade. Lets say I get 50 rides out of a pair of bibs, that is 2 bucks and some change per ride...a good deal if you ask me. I rode them back to back on my GAP ride a few months back to see if there was actually a difference, and it was huge.

You can get by with less, but $130 can still be a good value if you are going to get use of the product.

[BobbyJones]

This explains everything.


And as I lawyer, yeah, I tend to look at things in a legal way, but without throwing common sense out the window.

[znfdl]

I usually wait for someone to have a 25% of sale and then buy the Assos Uno shorts, which end up at $150. Expensive yes, according to my butt test, they are the best shorts for me. I have tried other less expensive shorts and I get hot spots after a couple of hours.

When biketiresdirect has a 15% sale plus you get 10% off your next purchase, you end up at the same net price.

[brockd15]

Lame...and I am a member...Thankfully, most realize that the intent is not to return items that you wear out over the normal course of time but to return items that are defective or wear prematurely

Ditto....not cool.
I'm a member, too.

[dustyrider]

What's a bid? ;) I don't dress up for my rides....

I like liners with a chamois like these (http://www.pearlizumi.com/publish/content/pi_2010/us/en/index/products/men/ride/apparel/1.-productCode-11111113.html). I can wear whatever I want over these, and at this price I have just about a weeks worth of fresh chamois, no washing, for the cost of one bib.

[charliedid]

I used my Peal Izumi Elites for a year, then took them back to REI earlier this week for an exchange when I moved to smaller size (I've lost 40lbs since January :banana:_.

No questions asked returns, for any reason. A good reason to shop for cycling gear REI;)

BOOOO! :no:

[BuddyB]

My inexpensive bib short preference....Voler.

[wc1934]

Ditto....not cool.
I'm a member, too.

ditto, ditto

[Louis]

The policy is very clear. New or used, no matter how long you have them. If you are not happy with it, for any reason, you return it.

So using this logic you only need to buy bibs / shorts / jerseys / socks / whatever once and you're set for life. Five years from now, when you're unhappy with them because the chamois is all worn out, you return them and get a bunch more. For free. And you get to do it over, and over, and over again.

Makes perfect sense to me!

[Grant McLean]

I usually wait for someone to have a 25% of sale and then buy the Assos Uno shorts, which end up at $150. Expensive yes, according to my butt test, they are the best shorts for me.

At Ribble $150 is the everyday price. With promos, i wait until they're $120

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Assos-BIB-SHORTS-Assos-T-FI-Uno-Bib-Shorts/ASSOZBBS260

[Jason E]

So using this logic you only need to buy bibs / shorts / jerseys / socks / whatever once and you're set for life. Five years from now, when you're unhappy with them because the chamois is all worn out, you return them and get a bunch more. For free. And you get to do it over, and over, and over again.

Makes perfect sense to me!

Y'all are wasting your time. He's either goading you by being a dick or is in fact an actual dick. Either way...

[Jeff Weir]

My arse loves Assos bibs and when you sit on a bike for 12+ hours at a time, every little bit of comfort is important.

I spend more money on contact points that I do on non contact points: e.g.


shoes
shorts
gloves
saddle


For one to two hour rides, it would probably not matter as much.

12+ HOURS?????
You are a man among men

[beeatnik]

At Ribble $150 is the everyday price. With promos, i wait until they're $120

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Assos-BIB-SHORTS-Assos-T-FI-Uno-Bib-Shorts/ASSOZBBS260

A great source, no doubt, but with shipping and possible customs, they can easily approach US prices.

[Jaq]

Thanks!

But why is it dishonest? There has been no breach of honesty. No attept to disceive. The policy is very clear. New or used, no matter how long you have them. If you are not happy with it, for any reason, you return it. I was not happy with them becasue they no longer fit. So I returned them. It is not dishonest or unethical, when there is no attempt to deceptive? Well, I guess you can truly debate the ethics... But it's certainly not dishonest.

As an REI member, it's one of the "privildges" of membership. You can choose not to be a member, and still buy things there. But the no questions asked return policy applies only to members.

I'm no saint, not by a longshot. Times are tough and money's tight for almost everyone I know. A little chicanery... meh. But the key word is "little."

It's not just the letter of the agreement, but the spirit. The folks at REI don't expect their cycling customers to pass a year's worth of crack-sweat and burrito farts through their chamois and then bring it back because - miracle of miracles - the customer's suddenly more Flipper than Shamu. REI's making the offer in good faith; they have a reasonable expectation of their customers behaving likewise.

Anyway, sorry if I've made this too personal. I don't mean to; it's not an attack and I'm not pounding my keyboard in a foam-flecked fury. We're all cyclists here, and thus by definition a cut above. Thus endeth my self-righteousness.

[Grant McLean]

A great source, no doubt, but with shipping and possible customs, they can easily approach US prices.

Not in my experience.

-g

[93legendti]

I'm looking at picking up some new bibs, as mine are pretty worn out.

Am I the only one that thinks prices of $150+ for bibs is outrageous?

Usually, I'm willing to pay up for quality product; but close to $200 for some lycra? I can't imagine there is that much "R&D" (and I use the quotation marks on purpose) in the cycling apparel industry. I suspect that the manufacturers all buy the fabric and chamois from the same factory in china. I mean, what is the biggest innovation over the last few years? Compression lycra? real innovative....

Maybe it is because I have never found a set of shorts or a bib that I really loved, and I suppose that if I did find one, it might be worth the price.

Anyway, I just don't understand how they are so expensive. Here's what I envision the price break down of a typical $175 bib at retail is:

Materials: $9.50
Labor: $15.00
"R&D": $1.70
Shipping: $0.75
Marketing: $12.00
LBS Margin: $30.00
Profit: $105.00????

Insurance, utilities, regulatory compliance, taxes, rent....I think you forgot a few things. $1.70 R&D to develop bib shorts? Interesting...

[93legendti]

Matt,

You live in the Upper Valley of VT/NH, right? You need to discover the local good stuff - Louis Garneau. Take a drive up to their outlet in Newport, VT sometime if you want to get some cheaper duds. They're on Rt 105 west of the interstate interchange. It's worth the drive.

Or just cut to the chase and get a pair of LG NeoPower bibs or shorts on sale from BikeTiresDirect or wherever.

TV

I love LG's products. Very reasonably priced and they hold up. I have 5-6 LG
bibs and they have held up for several seasons. I have an LG helmet, shoes and several pairs of LG gloves.
Performance almost always has LG stuff on sale.

[19wisconsin64]

i totally agree with the initial poster's sentiment. it's out of hand. if uniqlo, costco, and a bunch of other retailers started selling these they would cost $30 for a pair of descent shorts, and $50 for the best...instead of over $200.

that being said, i was lucky enough to get a half-price deal on assos shorts a few years ago...... now those are worn out and in need of replacement....i, too have sticker shock.

you can always go to performance online and get their brand on sale, and they are pretty good!

cheers

[Seramount]

some of you guys are lousy shoppers. really decent shorts (AeroTech) are available online for under $50.

some of you are just cheapskates...can't afford a jersey...really? and scamming the REI return policy is just being a deadbeat.

for an activity that I enjoy so much, spending a few bucks for equipment isn't objectionable at all.

[pdmtong]

I'm no saint, not by a longshot. Times are tough and money's tight for almost everyone I know. A little chicanery... meh. But the key word is "little."

It's not just the letter of the agreement, but the spirit. The folks at REI don't expect their cycling customers to pass a year's worth of crack-sweat and burrito farts through their chamois and then bring it back because - miracle of miracles - the customer's suddenly more Flipper than Shamu. REI's making the offer in good faith; they have a reasonable expectation of their customers behaving likewise.

Anyway, sorry if I've made this too personal. I don't mean to; it's not an attack and I'm not pounding my keyboard in a foam-flecked fury. We're all cyclists here, and thus by definition a cut above. Thus endeth my self-righteousness.

REI will sell those bibs at the B-93 for cost and at least break even...still...

[Marcusaurelius]

I have tried generic cycling shorts and they were okay--nothing special. Some time ago I tried a pair of castelli shorts and I liked them much more.

I don't mind spending a bit more to get something I like. Several years ago I had a choice between chorus or centaur group--I chose chorus. I've never regretted the decision.

THe REI thing makes no sense to me. For purely moral and ethical reasons it's not something I would ever think of doing.

[ofcounsel]

I'm no saint, not by a longshot. Times are tough and money's tight for almost everyone I know. A little chicanery... meh. But the key word is "little."

It's not just the letter of the agreement, but the spirit. The folks at REI don't expect their cycling customers to pass a year's worth of crack-sweat and burrito farts through their chamois and then bring it back because - miracle of miracles - the customer's suddenly more Flipper than Shamu. REI's making the offer in good faith; they have a reasonable expectation of their customers behaving likewise.

Anyway, sorry if I've made this too personal. I don't mean to; it's not an attack and I'm not pounding my keyboard in a foam-flecked fury. We're all cyclists here, and thus by definition a cut above. Thus endeth my self-righteousness.

Well, I guess I have to say, fair point. I am wrong on this one.

[rwsaunders]

I'm in Durango for a few days and I plan to stop at the Boure shop tomorrow. I'll ask for a breakdown of costs for everyone...:cool:

[54ny77]

bingo. that has been my gear of choice for 20+ years, since it's always been a club or team kit. each couple of years or so there are incremental improvements. colors stay true, don't fade, shorts & jerseys always comfortable after a gazillion miles and washings, etc. and it's MADE IN USA (california) which is a major plus.

i've never tried the fancier stuff (assos, rapha, etc), simply because i've never had need and am more than happy with voler. plus the idea of plopping down $250 for a pair of shorts or jersey, to me, is obscene.

this was first year that i had no team kit because i'm a lard ass. had to find regular big boy mumu gear and it f'ing sucked. pearl izumi and louis garneau make good stuff that won't break the bank.

can't wait to shimmy back down into team kit sizes.

oh and the post where some dude wore shorts for a year or so then took 'em back to exchange at a store (rei?)--good grief that is tacky and lame to the nth degree! way to jam the retailer. unreal.

My inexpensive bib short preference....Voler.

[znfdl]

At Ribble $150 is the everyday price. With promos, i wait until they're $120

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/Assos-BIB-SHORTS-Assos-T-FI-Uno-Bib-Shorts/ASSOZBBS260

Grant, thanks, I will keep my eye out for the a sale, that indeed is a very good price.

[gearguywb]

If spending a fairly significant amount of money on cycling clothing allows me to enjoy my ride more, and ride further, then it is money well spend.

Contact points are where it's at.

Why b*&^ about the cost of a pair of bibs (that you can use for several years, and the cost on a per useage basis would be very low), when folks regularly drop 2k on a set of wheels, 4k on a frame, 200 on a bar.......

[znfdl]

If spending a fairly significant amount of money on cycling clothing allows me to enjoy my ride more, and ride further, then it is money well spend.

Contact points are where it's at.

Why b*&^ about the cost of a pair of bibs (that you can use for several years, and the cost on a per useage basis would be very low), when folks regularly drop 2k on a set of wheels, 4k on a frame, 200 on a bar.......

gearguy, you make too much sense. :hello:

[chevron]

Yes I agree prices are Way High !

[Rueda Tropical]

if spending a fairly significant amount of money on cycling clothing allows me to enjoy my ride more, and ride further, then it is money well spend.

Contact points are where it's at.

Why b*&^ about the cost of a pair of bibs (that you can use for several years, and the cost on a per useage basis would be very low), when folks regularly drop 2k on a set of wheels, 4k on a frame, 200 on a bar.......

+1

[Grant McLean]

Grant, thanks, I will keep my eye out for the a sale, that indeed is a very good price.

Sign up for their email list.
I buy generally when they send out the "take an additional 20% off" coupon code,
which is pretty often. I'm sorry not to give more support to local retailers,
but the delta between the suggest North American price, and what i've usually
paid from Ribble is like 30-40%.

-g

[gdw]

"Why b*&^ about the cost of a pair of bibs (that you can use for several years, and the cost on a per useage basis would be very low), when folks regularly drop 2k on a set of wheels, 4k on a frame, 200 on a bar......."

Regularly?
A very small percentage of the cycling community is willing to pay those prices for mass produced products.

His rant is valid especially if you compare the retail costs of cycling apparel to clothing used in other outdoor sports. Cycling gear is pretty low tech and the RD costs small. The discounts that regularly crop up on the top brands are an indicator of the markup. Ribble doesn't lose money when they sell Assos bibs for $120.

[93legendti]

http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1103394_-1___1718508

$44

[fiamme red]

http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1103394_-1___1718508

$44Don't you work for Performance?

[Earl Gray]

Thanks!

But why is it dishonest? There has been no breach of honesty. No attept to disceive. The policy is very clear. New or used, no matter how long you have them. If you are not happy with it, for any reason, you return it. I was not happy with them becasue they no longer fit. So I returned them. It is not dishonest or unethical, when there is no attempt to deceptive? Well, I guess you can truly debate the ethics... But it's certainly not dishonest.

As an REI member, it's one of the "privildges" of membership. You can choose not to be a member, and still buy things there. But the no questions asked return policy applies only to members.

That's a Sleeze ball, Loser move!

You are what makes people think lowley of Lawyers.

[Earl Gray]

.....We're all cyclists here, and thus by definition a cut above....

Really?

I can not say that has been my observation on the road or the internet.

[norcalbiker]

I buy a cheap sugoi bib shorts or knickers at a clearance rack for my 2 hours ride. I wear an Assos on Century rides. It does makes a difference to me.

[PQJ]

That's a Sleeze ball, Loser move!

You are what makes people think lowley of Lawyers.

In re: /\, see \/, for it appears you might have missed it:

Well, I guess I have to say, fair point. I am wrong on this one.

:confused:

[bluesea]

Bad-hair-day rant I guess---just buy what works for you, both in terms of value and utility.

[jpw]

This is exactly why I don't buy cycling stuff...

I find the benefit if cycling gear to small for the additional cost.

What do you wear?

[jpw]

I'm looking at picking up some new bibs, as mine are pretty worn out.

Am I the only one that thinks prices of $150+ for bibs is outrageous?

Usually, I'm willing to pay up for quality product; but close to $200 for some lycra? I can't imagine there is that much "R&D" (and I use the quotation marks on purpose) in the cycling apparel industry. I suspect that the manufacturers all buy the fabric and chamois from the same factory in china. I mean, what is the biggest innovation over the last few years? Compression lycra? real innovative....

Maybe it is because I have never found a set of shorts or a bib that I really loved, and I suppose that if I did find one, it might be worth the price.

Anyway, I just don't understand how they are so expensive. Here's what I envision the price break down of a typical $175 bib at retail is:

Materials: $9.50
Labor: $15.00
"R&D": $1.70
Shipping: $0.75
Marketing: $12.00
LBS Margin: $30.00
Profit: $105.00????

Try golf.

[ofcounsel]

That's a Sleeze ball, Loser move!

You are what makes people think lowley of Lawyers.

Certainly, you are entitlted to your opinion. And based on the opinion's expressed on the board, not just yours, I would agree with you it was a "loser" move on my part. Sometimes, decisions made in a vaccum are not always the best ones. I am guilty of that here. It's good to have a forum that reminds you of that from time to time.

[pdmtong]

Certainly, you are entitlted to your opinion. And based on the opinion's expressed on the board, not just yours, I would agree with you it was a "loser" move on my part. Sometimes, decisions made in a vaccum are not always the best ones. I am guilty of that here. It's good to have a forum that reminds you of that from time to time.

tip of the hat to ofcounsel.

the piling-on can cease now.

[Earl Gray]

Certainly, you are entitlted to your opinion. And based on the opinion's expressed on the board, not just yours, I would agree with you it was a "loser" move on my part. Sometimes, decisions made in a vaccum are not always the best ones. I am guilty of that here. It's good to have a forum that reminds you of that from time to time.


Your "retraction" makes be belief in your lawyer skills:banana::banana::banana:

Glad you saw the light. It's important to me to believe I make a difference here on the Paceline!;)

[Louis]

Glad you saw the light. It's important to me to believe I make a difference here on the Paceline!;)

"difference" can be positive or negative... ;)

Equal opportunity insults today, for lawyers and regular humans alike. :)

[nahtnoj]

Here's what I envision the price break down of a typical $175 bib at retail is:

Materials: $9.50
Labor: $15.00
"R&D": $1.70
Shipping: $0.75
Marketing: $12.00
LBS Margin: $30.00
Profit: $105.00????

Not even close.

There is no typical $175 bib. The dealer margin varies a lot by brand. The brands that are never on sale have the worst margin.

Dealer margin is a lot more than you think, and its still a waste of precious cash for the small to medium size LBS to stock clothing.

[christian]

http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1103394_-1___1718508

$44

On this recommendation (?), I ordered a pair of these. The fabric is really nice. The bib straps are great. The fit is good.

The chamois is like a radial tire - stiff, broad, and exactly as wide in the front as in the rear. You'd have to have legs that attach 24" inches apart in order to fit these shorts.

They're going back. Useless.

[fiamme red]

On this recommendation (?), I ordered a pair of these. The fabric is really nice. The bib straps are great. The fit is good.

The chamois is like a radial tire - stiff, broad, and exactly as wide in the front as in the rear. You'd have to have legs that attach 24" inches apart in order to fit these shorts.

They're going back. Useless.93legendti should have included a disclaimer that he works at the local Performance shop. :no:

[kgrooney]

I'm looking at picking up some new bibs, as mine are pretty worn out.

Am I the only one that thinks prices of $150+ for bibs is outrageous?

Usually, I'm willing to pay up for quality product; but close to $200 for some lycra? I can't imagine there is that much "R&D" (and I use the quotation marks on purpose) in the cycling apparel industry. I suspect that the manufacturers all buy the fabric and chamois from the same factory in china. I mean, what is the biggest innovation over the last few years? Compression lycra? real innovative....

Maybe it is because I have never found a set of shorts or a bib that I really loved, and I suppose that if I did find one, it might be worth the price.

Anyway, I just don't understand how they are so expensive. Here's what I envision the price break down of a typical $175 bib at retail is:

Materials: $9.50
Labor: $15.00
"R&D": $1.70
Shipping: $0.75
Marketing: $12.00
LBS Margin: $30.00
Profit: $105.00????

Every stitch of cycling clothing I have is from Assos.

[93legendti]

On this recommendation (?), I ordered a pair of these. The fabric is really nice. The bib straps are great. The fit is good.

The chamois is like a radial tire - stiff, broad, and exactly as wide in the front as in the rear. You'd have to have legs that attach 24" inches apart in order to fit these shorts.

They're going back. Useless.

I'm sorry. Nothing ventured...The elite bibs are less expensive with a narrower chamois. Also nice.

[oldpotatoe]

Try golf.

or fly fishing

[Grant McLean]

Every stitch of cycling clothing I have is from Assos.

Yeah, that happened to me too.... it's also the best value clothing i've ever used.

-g

[christian]

I'm sorry. Nothing ventured...The elite bibs are less expensive with a narrower chamois. Also nice.No worries. I ordered a pair of the Bellwether Formas instead. Also going to get a pair or Boure Elite. I just prefer a more minimalist chamois. It's too bad as the other details of of the Performance ones were quite nice - good stitching, nice fabrics.

[christian]

Update:

$59 Bellwether Formas are really good shorts. The chamois is still a bit thicker than I prefer, but they're really pretty decent. Great for the price.

Now, speaking of expensive kit, has anyone tried the Castelli San Remo skinsuit? I'm soooooo tempted.

[MattTuck]

I've got a couple different bibs coming in, guess I'm going to try them, and if I don't like them, send 'em back.

Still unwilling to spend Assos prices. But I've found a few pairs in the 220 range that are on sale for close to 150. and I have a pair of Capo shorts that are in the 300 range, but available with shop logos for closer to 200.

[CNY rider]

No worries. I ordered a pair of the Bellwether Formas instead. Also going to get a pair or Boure Elite. I just prefer a more minimalist chamois. It's too bad as the other details of of the Performance ones were quite nice - good stitching, nice fabrics.

I love Boure as a general rule but found those bibs awful.
The worst I have ever worn.
Seams in all the wrong places. Left me with what looked like rope burns in some real sensitive areas.
Wish you better luck. Would really like to hear your review after you try them.

[rwsaunders]

I love Boure as a general rule but found those bibs awful.
The worst I have ever worn.
Seams in all the wrong places. Left me with what looked like rope burns in some real sensitive areas.
Wish you better luck. Would really like to hear your review after you try them.

Interesting that you mention the seam issue. I bought a pair of their Elite bibs a year ago, and found the chamois to be comfortable up to around 50 miles or so. Then the seams begin to dig in, and without a mid-ride chamois cream "refuel", they can be quite irritating. In terms of durability, fit, support and the made in the USA factor, Boure gets good grades. I have not tried their other models.

[jlwdm]

I've got a couple different bibs coming in, guess I'm going to try them, and if I don't like them, send 'em back.

Still unwilling to spend Assos prices. But I've found a few pairs in the 220 range that are on sale for close to 150. and I have a pair of Capo shorts that are in the 300 range, but available with shop logos for closer to 200.

I have 7 or 8 pair of the Assos F1 Uno and always buy them for under $150.

Jeff