Building A Safer Helmet - Design Help Needed

[19wisconsin64]

I'm doing some research into building a safer bicycle helmet, and need technical advice. My goal is to develop a helmet that lowers the chance of severe brain injuries.

While there are plenty of helmets that do a good job of protecting the head during a crash, there is clearly room for improvement.

A few years ago I was involved in a high-speed crash that gave me a concussion. My body (ribs, collarbone, arms) cushioned the fall (by breaking), but when my head slammed against the road ..... it was like my brain was a softball being hit by a bat against the inside of my skull. Everything turned bright, bright white, and when I came too, I knew I almost didn't make it.

My idea is this: to create and manufacture (possibly) a helmet that is both reasonably light, yet has a way of slowing down the acceleration of the head and brain during the moment of impact. Using a very thin outer shell with vents (much like existing designs), combined with an inner breakable hardened styrofoam mold (much like existing designs), combined with a shock-absorbing thin and light inner lining (gel-like (or perhaps like the soft inner sole part of a running shoe).

I need to input form an engineer / scientist on the actual design of the helmet, in addition to input from physicians who have experience in head trauma.

All of us have been in accidents, and some of us (sadly, and myself included) know of someone else who has had a life-altering head trauma cycling related accident while wearing a helmet.

Please post a response here, or send me a PM to discuss. It would be great to speak on the phone too! It's going to take time to do the right research, have to have the right design, and this is my start. You folks are an intelligent bunch!

Your advice is appreciated! Thanks, Dave

[Louis]

Dave, you are indeed a brave soul. ;)

Good luck.

Louis

[Black Dog]

The issue is distance. You need to decelerate the head at a rate that prevents the brain from striking the inside of the skull at a velocity that will result in serious trauma. Regardless of the cushioning material you choose you need a given distance to slow the head down. This is essentially what a crumple zone in a car does. Your helmet would have to be very thick or have a heavy rigid outer layer and a compliant inner layer like a motorcycle helmet.

Current helmets are not designed to prevent concussions, per say, they are designed to prevent skull fractures by dissipating the impact force over a broad area. They do this very well and that is why you are not lying in a bed with a feeding tube. I do hope you can come up with a solution. Helmets have save my bean on two occasions and are worth every penny I spent replacing them.

[MattTuck]

This sounds like something that a master or senior thesis could focus on for mechanical engineering students. Have you contacted your local universities?

[Earl Gray]

There are lots of VERY smart people working on this issue and there have been for many, many, years.

Maybe you will be the one to make the quantum leap in design philosophy, but your inspiration is not likely to come from free advise on the internet.

Pontification seldoms leads to insight.

Jus Sayin

[InspectorGadget]

I posted this on a ski forum I frequent after I rang my bell a week before Christmas this past year:

Thin cover and all, I decided to ski the groomers at PCMR for a couple hours yesterday morning. I was most of the way down what was going to be my last run when I went down hard. At least I think went down hard, I have no recollection of what happened. I remember standing on one ski somewhat wobbly and having a lady ask me if I was alright while she handed me my goggles and other ski. I said I think so and she skied off. Apparently I called my wife and said um - long pause - who am I skiing with? (I was skiing alone) and then I told her I had crashed and hit my head. I threw up on the hill and said to myself you have a concussion, take it easy. I skied to the bottom of First Time/3 Kings where I saw MiniGadget waiting for me, but I don't remember a thing about skiing to the bottom. MG tells me I asked him repeatedly if I had called him or his mother. I vaguely remember him walking me to my car and helping me take my boots off. The next thing I knew I was throwing up again while leaning out the passenger door of his car. Mrs. Gadget showed up and drove me to the hospital - we only had to stop once more so I could throw up again. The ER folks asked me if I had any other medical issues besides the head trauma and I think I said something about chubbiness.

Following a CT scan I was told I have arthritis in my neck, but no broken bones or brain bleeds. I just have a good, old fashioned concussion. I am grateful for the job my now broken Smith Variant Brim helmet did to protect my head. I can't imagine what would have happened to my noggin had I not been wearing a helmet. I would have posted this from the ER following that time-honored forum tradition, but I couldn't focus on my phone.

Be safe out there.

As a result of my crash, I started looking into helmets that would better protect my head from subsequent concussions. POC, and a few other manufacturers, is making some of their ski and cycling helmets using MIPS (http://mipshelmet.com/find-a-helmet) technology. Currently most of the cycling helmets are DH and freeride oriented, but MIPS is something you should look into as you do your homework.

[Jason E]

"While there are plenty of helmets that do a good job of protecting the head during a crash, there is clearly room for improvement."

'Clearly' makes it seem like they are squirreling away better safer designs or don't care enough to advance there product. If it was 'clear' I am not sure you would be on a bike forum, I would think you'd be towards the patent office.

Don't take offense at this personally, but it does not sound like you have respect for those that do this for a living, of which there are many. This is a common mistake for laymen commenting on nearly any trade/field in which they are not well versed, but are going to set the world on its ear.

Humility will get you much further once you are talking to the people that can/will help you.

I was hit by a drunk driver 6 weeks ago, June 2nd. My Atmos saved my life. She hit me from behind doing over 50mph, and I am very fortunate to not be dead. I'm feeling better and the first DAMN thing I ordered to get myself riding again was a new fcuking Atmos.

God bless every sonofabitch working at Giro. Seriously.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm doing some research into building a safer bicycle helmet, and need technical advice. My goal is to develop a helmet that lowers the chance of severe brain injuries.

While there are plenty of helmets that do a good job of protecting the head during a crash, there is clearly room for improvement.

A few years ago I was involved in a high-speed crash that gave me a concussion. My body (ribs, collarbone, arms) cushioned the fall (by breaking), but when my head slammed against the road ..... it was like my brain was a softball being hit by a bat against the inside of my skull. Everything turned bright, bright white, and when I came too, I knew I almost didn't make it.

My idea is this: to create and manufacture (possibly) a helmet that is both reasonably light, yet has a way of slowing down the acceleration of the head and brain during the moment of impact. Using a very thin outer shell with vents (much like existing designs), combined with an inner breakable hardened styrofoam mold (much like existing designs), combined with a shock-absorbing thin and light inner lining (gel-like (or perhaps like the soft inner sole part of a running shoe).

I need to input form an engineer / scientist on the actual design of the helmet, in addition to input from physicians who have experience in head trauma.

All of us have been in accidents, and some of us (sadly, and myself included) know of someone else who has had a life-altering head trauma cycling related accident while wearing a helmet.

Please post a response here, or send me a PM to discuss. It would be great to speak on the phone too! It's going to take time to do the right research, have to have the right design, and this is my start. You folks are an intelligent bunch!

Your advice is appreciated! Thanks, Dave

So ya think the boys and girls at Giro and Bell(the biggest part of the market) are missin' the boat on helmet design?

Why not give them a call and see what they think. They are the 'experts' in the field right now.

[jr59]

So ya think the boys and girls at Giro and Bell(the biggest part of the market) are missin' the boat on helmet design?

Why not give them a call and see what they think. They are the 'experts' in the field right now.


On this. I will strongly disagree;

Those guys are experts in marketing. not head safety.
They want to sell helmets.

Call D.O.T. and see where that leads you.
make a bike helmet that meets DOT, and someone will buy, and you will be very wealthy.

[oldpotatoe]

On this. I will strongly disagree;

Those guys are experts in marketing. not head safety.
They want to sell helmets.

Call D.O.T. and see where that leads you.
make a bike helmet that meets DOT, and someone will buy, and you will be very wealthy.

I donno. They wouldn't sell helmets if they didn't do anything. I think it's in their best interest to see the scads of reports of, 'I'd be a zuccini if I didn't have 'whatever' on', whether they really know that or not.

A helmet that is going to prevent head injuries would be ala motorcycle helmets, and those won't sell, so yes, there is some marketing going on.

But I think the helmet makers have 'some' knowledge of what works and what is pure marketing. Yep, they are mostly a foam cup with some pretty plastic on it but.......

[Mr Cabletwitch]

If it was feasible from a manufacturing standpoint I would think that a Styrofoam layer consisting of honeycomb plastic sells instead of the traditional styrofoam would do a better job at reducing the abrupt stop. But what do I know

[cmg]

google "Building a better helmet" for suggestions. the one using toyota prius technology was cool.

[54ny77]

years back i had a motorcycle suit (an aerostitch roadcrafter) with strategic areas that had impact foam that was ridiculously thin (about a 1/4" or so) and bonded to hard abs plastic. that memory foam was amazing--you could squeeze it gently to a super thin width with your fingers, or you could do a full force punch (which i tried--my knuckles were only slightly sore) and the energy was amazingly dissipated with the memory foam minimally compressing.

the pads were for spine, shoulders, forearms, and knees.

no idea what technology that was, but it's worth exploring for bike helmet padding.

[DY123]

The original poster's attitude is*EXACTLY the type of attitude that*drives innovation. *We need more of that not less.

It seems a pretty complacent attitude to assume that Giro or Bell have figured it ALL out, so why bother.

I've worked in a design environment. *Many times designers are constrained and forced to design to a price. *Just because they have a product offering out there, it doesn't mean it is the best product available (or even the best product they could make). * It just means it is the best they can profitably produce and sell to their demographic.

I've also worked with engineers. Engineers are great.....but by and large they are not visionaries. *Plus they are in not infallible. *Engineers professionally engineer products that break all the time.

Not to beat a dead horse, but how about good old Steve Jobs? *Computers and cell phones were products perfected and ruled by experts in those fields......thus no room for improvement.

[David Kirk]

I'd contact Snell and get as much data as you can.

dave

[54ny77]

agreed!

helmet innovation/concept doesn't seem much different than the first giro watercoolers with lycra covers.

would love to see a new innovative out of the box design and/or use of material.

The original poster's attitude is*EXACTLY the type of attitude that*drives innovation. *We need more of that not less.

[ThomasAylesbury]

with todays light weight materials, you could easily design a suspension helmet. Keep outer shell round so blow is not direct. Very simple to do, but nobody will listen, hockey helmets same concept...

[54ny77]

don't forget prodigious use of duct tape.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JXdAQ3z_6r8/T9CcIwGNjPI/AAAAAAAAbVU/S7mvaVa3GAI/s400/AlbertoBlancoShermerNeck2-341x421.jpeg

[19wisconsin64]

Thanks, all for your input, all appreciated....more is needed!

My goal is to get the major helmet manufacture companies to create safer helmets. The technology should be shared, even though some designs will be patented by some companies....... the whole goal is to create a new range of helmets that better protect riders against severe brain injury.

I may or may not pursue manufacturing, and this is not the point of this thread.... but it's important to note that without a demand from the consumers, and some media attention, not enough may be done.

Engineers / Physicians / anyone else who has some ideas as to the exact layering that would work best?

What types of materials, what thickness, in which order (i.e. very thin carbon fiber outer shell, one-inch thick hard styrofoam, half inch thick lightweight heat-formed inner gel pads against the head).

Seriously, what might be the best design?

Again, thanks for your responses!

[professerr]

Wisconsin, good on you, I say. I wouldn't mortgage my first born son on whatever venture you've got in mind, but wasn't Giro founded by some guy in a garage taking on big guys like Bell?

Yesterday riding around the Santa Cruz mountains, Cyclemeter said my top speed was 52 MPH. I've ridden the exact same routes on a motorcycle and wouldn't even think of doing so with the flimsy piece of beer cooler I use cycling. The bicycle helmet industry might need a shake up.

[54ny77]

couldn't have said it better myself.

why we accept (as it were) that a little piece of styrofoam with plastic at a 30 mph impact would work as well as a full-tilt arai is kinda weird.



Yesterday riding around the Santa Cruz mountains, Cyclemeter said my top speed was 52 MPH. I've ridden the exact same routes on a motorcycle and wouldn't even think of doing so with the flimsy piece of beer cooler I use cycling. The bicycle helmet industry might need a shake up.

[Mark McM]

On this. I will strongly disagree;

Those guys are experts in marketing. not head safety.
They want to sell helmets.

The goal of bicycle helmet manufactures is to produce the most stylish and comfortable helmets that still (just barely) meet regulatory standards.

Consumer Reports tested a variety of bicycle helmets to see if they met CPSC standards. From their report:

"All but two models absorbed the force of impact within the limit set by the current Consumer Product Safety Commission standard. The two, both multisport helmets that claim to be usable for other activities such as skateboarding (which was not tested), slightly exceeded that limit in at least two out of three drops. We have judged them Poor for impact absorption in our Ratings (available to subscribers).

"Of all the adult helmets we tested, only one provided the necessary protection in our own more-stringent test, in which we dropped helmets on the anvils at about 2 mph faster. At $60, it is a CR Best Buy. Three other helmets that met the government standard but did not pass our higher velocity test are recommended. All four of those helmets earned high scores for ventilation, fit adjustments, ease of use, and weight."



The current CPSC standard was approved in 1998, an is essentially the same as the ASTM F1447 standard from 1994. It appears that whatever new helmet technology has been developed by the manufacturers in the intervening years, it has not been in the area of increasing the protection offered by their helmets.

[54ny77]

there's a local cyclist in nyc that races with a full round-like helmet. not your typical cycling brand. i think it's a skateboarder helmet. will try & find a picture and post it. not a bad looking setup to be honest, but maybe a bit hot in the middle of summer.

[Nooch]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Djg15Ioanxs/TZDRgQhbNiI/AAAAAAAACew/RSAMHoXSlO0/s1600/ATGATT03.jpg

[54ny77]

this is the helmet i was thinking of:

http://www.pocsports.com/en/14/wheels-helmets

http://www.pocsports.com/en/content/view/protective-concepts

[Nooch]

there's a local cyclist in nyc that races with a full round-like helmet. not your typical cycling brand. i think it's a skateboarder helmet. will try & find a picture and post it. not a bad looking setup to be honest, but maybe a bit hot in the middle of summer.

Greg Olsen, races with a POC helmet, probably the MIPS unit.. I'd asked about it earlier in the season, because some of the master's racers on my team were interested in em after the death at bethel...

[54ny77]

voila. yep that's it.

Greg Olsen, races with a POC helmet..

[fiamme red]

What's the worst helmet of all time? My vote would be for the Skid Lid:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SKID-LID-HELMET-TINTED-VISOR-CHIN-STRAP-/300741776609

Provides almost no more protection from impact than a leather hair-net, but a hair-net looks really cool when worn by good riders (e.g., generations of Belgian tough men), while this just looks goofy.

[54ny77]

i had one of them. then got a bell v1. that thing was a tank.

[zap]

Wisconsin-go for it. Proven many times that the status quo does not always have the best products.

Keep in mind that weight and cooling are factors too. Some may go for a bigger, heavier, warmer helmet if proven safety is increased.

Might want to talk to docs that are involved with head trauma. Also, I think there are one or two helmet studies involving football (US) players.

[christian]

Engineers / Physicians / anyone else who has some ideas as to the exact layering that would work best?
Plastic shell to protect the functional material from abrasion/elements during normal use. EPS foam to protect the head.

Sorry, I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

There's a reason why car racing helmets, motorcycle helmets, bicycle helmets all have the same construction. When it comes to slowing a head form to sub-lethal acceleration over a small distance (the depth of the foam), closed-cell expanded polystyrene foam appears to be by far the best material.

That said, I think (as do others) that current bicycle and motorcycle helmets use too-hard EPS, and that a safer helmet could be built with lower-density EPS and a greater diameter. This problem is primarily due to the headform used for testing being harder and less deformable than a human head.

If you want to make a safer helmet, make it bigger, with fewer vents, and with thicker, softer EPS.

[AngryScientist]

you should look at winning designs for the classic first year physics students challenge. you know the one. they drop an egg out of the highest floor of the engineering building and see which egg survives. they way to protect the egg is the way to protect your head.

in general, i agree with what christian says above.

[Liberace]

A guy from high school started Xenith helmets- specializes in football and has branched out to baseball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtLfouZhmc&feature=player_embedded#!

I think the biggest problem as stated previously is a safer helmet won't be a stylish helmet. You should email Xenith and see if they have anything to say on bicycle helmets or if they licensed the technology to a cycling company.

[professerr]

How about incorporating airbags of some sort: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/10/cyclists-airbag-helmets-bursts-forth-from-stylish-collar/

[Nelson99]

MIPS makes a lot of sense, but I think that in most crashes the helmet rotates on the head quite a lot, so much of the torsional stress that MIPS aims to reduce may not be as strong as it would be if your helmet were welded to your head, or perhaps buckled on and close fitting like a moto helmet. This is also why helmets have hard outer shells, so the helmet will skid and not catch, which would cause abrupt rotation.

As for increasing the diameter of the helmet. while that would certainly help the most, it brings to mind some very goofy images.

Perhaps you could increase the effective diameter by only using an equatorial band with another over the top of the head. Wouldn't do well against branches and other pokey bits, but a big halo would certainly keep your head off the road, and it would be cool (temperature, not style).

I suspect, however, that there may be some CPSC rule that prevents this kind of design.

The Xenith shock absorbers look like they might work very well. And they can probably be tuned for different applications and anticipated impacts.

[Grant McLean]

the only thing i'll add is that these discussions just demonstrate the extent to which
cycling has been dangerized and made to be a strange behaviour in our culture.

more great reading here for those interested in promoting ridership:

http://thinkingaboutcycling.wordpress.com/article-fear-of-cycling/

[dustyrider]

If it were me I'd want to start with cold hard facts, specifically related to bicycle rider fatalities. You'd then want to focus your attention solely on deaths caused by a TBI(traumatic brain injury), of course you'd have to limit those to cyclists that were wearing a helmet. Once you have those #'s you'd have to single out say the last 5-8 years, since most people will have purchased a newly designed helmet in that time frame.

What I mean is there is no reason to think a better helmet could save lives unless you can statistically prove that there are enough falls that result in death, as a result of a TBI to a cyclist who was wearing a current helmet. Right?

I know there are many secondary devices out there now for all forms of sports that protect the rotational forces the head creates in a catastrophic accident. I wonder if a Leatt (http://www.leatt-brace.com/) would a better investment for a roadie?

As mentioned Snell is a company that I would try to contact in fact they have a bicycle helmet database on their website.

I also think the NFL would be a great place too, but I'm sure a lot of there research is sadly hidden behind their fear of liability. However, I'd venture to guess that their newest constructed helmets are going to be the top of the line in TBI protection. Although from what I understand the issue with the NFL is not necessarily preventing the injury, it's the prolonged, repeated exposure to the same injury.

Good on you for being the type that actually wants to undertake something like this, it's not something I'd be interested in, until you come up with a better helmet that is!

[Jason E]

The problem is this, he is not an innovator, he is asking for physicians, engineers and our opinions for materials, design, etc... It's not innovative, it's lacking an understanding of what the market offers but KNOWING there is a better solution.

Using that logic, I am now going to be as innovative:

Building A Better Particle Collider - Design Help Needed

I'm doing some research into building a better particle collider, and need technical advice. My goal is to develop a particle collider that does what current ones do, but better.

While there are plenty of colliders that do a good job of colliding particles, there is clearly room for improvement.

A few years ago I I used a particle collider. It worked.

My idea is this: to create and manufacture (possibly) a collider that is both reasonably powerful, yet has a way of slowing down the acceleration of the particl during the moment of impact. Using a tunnel made of carboard, or maybe jello.

I need to input form an engineer / scientist on the actual design of the collider, in addition to input from physicists who have experience in particle collision.

All of us have used colliders, and some of us (sadly, and myself included) know of someone else who has had a life-altering event from using a particle collider not made of jello.

Please post a response here, or send me a PM to discuss. It would be great to speak on the phone too! It's going to take time to do the right research, have to have the right design, and this is my start. You folks are an intelligent bunch!

Your advice is appreciated! Thanks, Jason

[dustyrider]

The problem is this, he is not an innovator, he is asking for physicians, engineers and our opinions for materials, design, etc... It's not innovative, it's lacking an understanding of what the market offers but KNOWING there is a better solution.

Using that logic, I am now going to be as innovative:

Building A Better Particle Collider - Design Help Needed

I'm doing some research into building a better particle collider, and need technical advice. My goal is to develop a particle collider that does what current ones do, but better.

While there are plenty of colliders that do a good job of colliding particles, there is clearly room for improvement.

A few years ago I I used a particle collider. It worked.

My idea is this: to create and manufacture (possibly) a collider that is both reasonably powerful, yet has a way of slowing down the acceleration of the particl during the moment of impact. Using a tunnel made of carboard, or maybe jello.

I need to input form an engineer / scientist on the actual design of the collider, in addition to input from physicists who have experience in particle collision.

All of us have used colliders, and some of us (sadly, and myself included) know of someone else who has had a life-altering event from using a particle collider not made of jello.

Please post a response here, or send me a PM to discuss. It would be great to speak on the phone too! It's going to take time to do the right research, have to have the right design, and this is my start. You folks are an intelligent bunch!

Your advice is appreciated! Thanks, Jason

I wonder what you think of this:

Snell (http://www.smf.org/about)

It seems to me the OP might just meet a Dr. Snively.


Oh and please don't build a particle collider, not even a better one, in my backyard, keep it in yours. :)

[54ny77]

NPAIMBY, thank you.

That would "No Particle Accelerator In My Back Yard."

That whole antimatter thing would be a real bummer if it went wrong.

The problem is this, he is not an innovator, he is asking for physicians, engineers and our opinions for materials, design, etc... It's not innovative, it's lacking an understanding of what the market offers but KNOWING there is a better solution.

Using that logic, I am now going to be as innovative:

Building A Better Particle Collider - Design Help Needed

I'm doing some research into building a better particle collider, and need technical advice. My goal is to develop a particle collider that does what current ones do, but better.

While there are plenty of colliders that do a good job of colliding particles, there is clearly room for improvement.

A few years ago I I used a particle collider. It worked.

My idea is this: to create and manufacture (possibly) a collider that is both reasonably powerful, yet has a way of slowing down the acceleration of the particl during the moment of impact. Using a tunnel made of carboard, or maybe jello.

I need to input form an engineer / scientist on the actual design of the collider, in addition to input from physicists who have experience in particle collision.

All of us have used colliders, and some of us (sadly, and myself included) know of someone else who has had a life-altering event from using a particle collider not made of jello.

Please post a response here, or send me a PM to discuss. It would be great to speak on the phone too! It's going to take time to do the right research, have to have the right design, and this is my start. You folks are an intelligent bunch!

Your advice is appreciated! Thanks, Jason